I upgraded to BOG5 but found unable to downgrade and root.
Can anyone help me solve this peoblem
I would be very grateful
a133232 said:
I upgraded to BOG5 but found unable to downgrade and root.
Can anyone help me solve this peoblem
I would be very grateful
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No one can help you solve this problem. BOG5 cannot be downgraded and it cannot be rooted. Period. End of story.
landshark68 said:
No one can help you solve this problem. BOG5 cannot be downgraded and it cannot be rooted. Period. End of story.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's always JTAG...right?
dreamwave said:
There's always JTAG...right?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please stop misinforming new people. I told you why JTAG wouldn't work before you even made your lengthy JTAG "brick" thread (which you referred back to your other nonsensical "petition" thread - the exact thread where I answered you WHY JTAG wouldn't work - in the end because you have absolutely no idea what you're doing).
Just remove this thread already. Or sticky it so there's a chance people will read it and never ask this stupid question again...
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Spartan117H3 said:
Please stop misinforming new people. I told you why JTAG wouldn't work before you even made your lengthy JTAG "brick" thread (which you referred back to your other nonsensical "petition" thread - the exact thread where I answered you WHY JTAG wouldn't work - in the end because you have absolutely no idea what you're doing).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Where did you reply in those words? I didn't get any of that out of what you said, unfortunately. Also, on the topic of the "petition" it was mainly to try and inform at least a couple more people and possibly gain a couple more arguments that could be used against Verizon through the FCC. I have a valid legal argument, one that you were being pessimistic about with really no backing, and on the JTAG issue...you didn't offer any reason why that was so, and so I didn't back down at the first sight of doubt. I don't mean to be defensive or aggressive in any way, but I respectfully took your opinion into account (and it was indeed an opinion on many of those matters), factored in the overall theme of posts you had made in the past, and decided that there was (and still is) possibility for solutions in each of these issues. Unless JTAG is specifically disabled at the hardware level (which was actually proven false by what I found and documented in my thread) it is still feasible to use it to modify the Qfuse flags.
dreamwave said:
Where did you reply in those words? I didn't get any of that out of what you said, unfortunately. Also, on the topic of the "petition" it was mainly to try and inform at least a couple more people and possibly gain a couple more arguments that could be used against Verizon through the FCC. I have a valid legal argument, one that you were being pessimistic about with really no backing, and on the JTAG issue...you didn't offer any reason why that was so, and so I didn't back down at the first sight of doubt. I don't mean to be defensive or aggressive in any way, but I respectfully took your opinion into account (and it was indeed an opinion on many of those matters), factored in the overall theme of posts you had made in the past, and decided that there was (and still is) possibility for solutions in each of these issues. Unless JTAG is specifically disabled at the hardware level (which was actually proven false by what I found and documented in my thread) it is still feasible to use it to modify the Qfuse flags.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For your petition, you keep saying, you have "valid" arguments. If you do, why do you need to keep continuing the thread? Go take it to court then. Start a class action lawsuit. You are correct, what I stated there is my opinion. Pessimistic about? You wrote so many pages for no reason. What does information do if you don't use it? All you were doing was talking about it. I was telling you why it doesn't work, and why Verizon doesn't have to respond to you, a single person, unless you were to take legal action against them, and even then, you are highly unlikely to win. By all means, take it to court. But know that talking doesn't change anything. If you want to argue that publicity is your motive, the 18k bounty got a thousand times more publicity, and the bootloader is STILL unlocked. There were also actual petition threads that people signed at change.com/etc, that have more "weight" than your thread, yet it is, again, locked still. I bet you the devs care more about a bootloader unlock than you do, because that's what most of their work/fun comes from. What did most of them do? Most (not all) of them jumped ship to Tmobile/international versions.
I took your opinion into account, but your legal backing to my eyes is simply, "Verizon must tell ME why/respond to MY claims as a sole person, not, Verizon has no basis for their argument (as I'm sure they have it somewhere, companies always try to hide their asses)." So like I said, go take it to court, by all means. I'm not being rude, I'm just saying, do something about it if you really believe what you think is right. It's also not pessimistic although you view it that way probably because it opposes your opinion, it's realistic and I've given you logical reasons why, whereas you just keep stating, Verizon has some obligation to respond to you.
As for the JTAG, I stated in one of the reasons why a bootloader unlock is not possible:
Spartan117H3 said:
...If you took the time to look at other threads ranging from the S3, Note 4, etc, you'll learn that the S5 isn't the only one. Also, the reason the Devs don't work on it is because a failed bootloader exploit bricks the phone so that not even a JTAG will revive it....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The devs already tried this. All you did was write a multi page post talking back and forth with yourself and new people who have no knowledgeable backing. Look back through your thread. The only support you had was from new people, you probably double posted more than their posts. I think only one senior member responded.
Spartan117H3 said:
For your petition...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do apologize for trying a method that I saw absolutely no documentation on any attempts of, it was a fool of me to try and see if it might just work. You said that JTAG would not work, you gave no links and no reasons why. I understand that there might be a kill flag in there, but if the phone believes itself to be running genuine software I don't see much in the way of proof that it wouldn't accept any firmware rewrite then, especially as at that point Samsung and Verizon would stand to benefit from being able to directly write such firmware. The petition was simply to get even just a couple more eyes on the issue, and with the FCC...IT ACTUALLY IS A LEGAL CASE. I have tried to say that, that they are given ,by forfeit of direct control of the issues by Congress and the courts, a requirement that they use internal systems that are run as courts and have the power of a court, while being only possible to challenge if they act "unconstitutionally" outside their given bounds. The petition was a thing I started basically to try and let people outside of the developer community, who are demographically very likely to be vocal on issues of corporate monopoly (based on the crowd change(dot)org attracts.
I tried doing my research for each, and in basic principle found none that matched either. No, I'm not a longstanding member of the XDA community, and no I'm not an ex-oem firmware dev, but if I have an idea and no one gives me a specific reason why it won't work in a manner that would both completely address all facets of it and in a way that would help others to try and build off of the information contained within, then I will try and implement that idea or publicize it so someone who knows how can do it. Notice, on my thread about the SD Card unlock: I completely summarized the content of my findings in the first post, dead ends I ran into, and what I personally think might work in the future. If someone adds to the thread with info that either adds or nullifies an idea then I will update it and tag the post as I care about knowledge on a whole and getting info to everyone who can use it. My rationale behind this is to allow for anyone who might have an idea, or the capability to form a successful one, to research and take into account the findings of others.
TL;DR: It helps everyone, individually and as a community, to explain why an idea won't work than just to declare that it won't and the person's efforts (all of them) are in vain.
I do not mean to insult you or attack you in any way, and I have no "but" or "however" for this statement. Just for the future, instead of saying "no" and then flaming me when I say "why not," maybe say "why not" because if you know that the answer is "no," not that many issues are so black and white that a small bit of explanation or detail physically can't be given.
BTW, in response to one of your replies in a recent thread where you mentioned how a brick would not be possible to undo even by JTAG then talked about that being universal, what I was discussing was not bricking by means of triggering any lock such as that that you mention. I was attempting to reproduce conditions that would lead to a "failed flash of newer software" wherein no flag is tripped, but the phone could not load any usable kernel, modem, or bootloader image as that would allow for using the method here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/verizon-galaxy-s5/help/g900v-hard-brick-t2914847 that I have really worked on for the s3 to try and boot custom software to flash software to the phone. I am actually still optimistic for one method here because no one has said that it would not boot a very carefully crafted debrick image that would act as an external bootstrap and directly load a completely custom system image quite readily with no qualifiers or signature checks.
And sorry to everyone for the long post, I know it's annoying. Please forgive me :fingers-crossed:
@dreamwave, I mentioned that they were found by researching other phones that have bootloaders locked. There is one phone (I forget which one) where they (I believe two developers) DID get a successful bootloader unlock, but because they bricked so many phones that a JTAG would not fix, they sold bootloader unlocks for $25 a pop to recoup costs for the loss. But it was the phone itself, not a carrier specific version of a bootloader unlock. Meaning that phone worked on all carriers. I know you said you wanted links or whatnot, but it's on 100% XDA, and I'm on my phone right now/don't remember where I read it.
I gave you sound logic of why your solutions do not work, and if you take the time to think about what I say, instead of referring back to your own original statement, you would understand why. That's the thing. I state the reason why, whether or not you follow along with it is entirely up to you. I did not flame you in any way, I always responded with reasons why. It's just like you said, you were promoting awareness for people who are legally sound. But nothing was done, yet you keep continuing/promoting the thread, to what end? You're not going to do anything yourself. So why beat the dead horse?
You're right. I don't have hard documentation of answers. But you act like this is the first phone that has been attempted to be bootloader unlocked. There are threads in other forums for other phones that have been tested. There's also a plethora of sound reasoning against what you're trying to do. Do you need scientific proof and factual documentation that wind exists, or can you tell it exists because you can feel it on your skin?
If I have time later/if you want, I can find the links to what I'm talking about or you can look yourself, but for what it's worth, the developers work together in private to deter people from asking nonsensical questions such as, is it done yet/etc. As I'm not a developer (I just looked up this stuff in my free time), I don't have access to your hard evidence. But it has been stated that what you tried has been done on multiple phones in the past. If me saying that, or me finding the quote of someone saying that isn't enough for you, then by all means, go try it yourself. Developers will not come forward to tell you their progress for the reason I mentioned, so if you're looking for that, you won't find it.
@Spartan117H3
That is certainly reasonably sound logic for the most part, and I understand that many of them do it in private, but if you knew about it, especially other than just "no it doesn't work" for a specific experiment, it would be great if you wrote where any roadblock would lay and maybe a reference to where I could learn more about it. I learned that a major roadblock to parts of that method are the self verification of the bootloader and the external signature check from the SoC itself. What I am hoping to do is see whether or not the signature check and the load file commands are separate or integrated. If they are integrated, then that's probably the end of trying to use the SD Card, but if they are separate then it should be possible to dynamically alter the contents of the card after the initial signature check. Of course it's possible that it doesn't do the same signature check for an external SD card, in which case just modifying it to act as a permanent bootstrap would be entirely feasible.
I know that a lot of people have tried and failed, but if no one has tried this one specifically to its full extent I'd like to go for it. Just someone telling me no doesn't show me that they know what they're talking about. Someone telling me no, and then offering a little bit of a clue why (even just saying they found somewhere where someone tried the method then ran into (blank) as an issue) definitely helps me to try and either find a different method or a way around that issue or roadblock.
Also, I remember you telling me JTAG wouldn't work, but never addressing the SD card method... I can't seem to find any of your posts on my thread, though (a few on the petition one, but mostly didn't recognize the FCC as the deciding body, instead stating justification on the part of Verizon.) The FCC decides what their regulations say and mean, just as the courts do, and require adherence to those interpretations. No standing precedent exists that stands on Verizon's side on this issue from the arguments presented so I'm going for it, and just letting everyone know how it's going and leaving it open to discussion and reply if they have an idea that I might pursue to help my case
@dreamwave, what you are asking is the same as what this guy was "trying" to ask:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/verizon-galaxy-s5/help/vz-replacement-s5-oe1-t3190365
And the third post by the moderator clarified. As we have already discussed, you don't have enough knowledge (nor do I for that matter) to successfully start and finish a solution. It's like, if we were to build a building with just a hammer and some dirt. Why don't we leave the building process to the engineers? If you actually do have enough knowledge, contact a developer to get into their private work. Otherwise, you'll leave a building unfinished, cluttering up the streets, so to speak.
Basically, you're asking for either A, someone to go along with you in whatever process you try to do (in which case, it would be easier and quicker for a dev to do it his/herself), or B, just to see where progress is, in which case, it is not useful to you nor I, because it's another "are we there yet" question, and we wouldn't be able to continue with it anyway.
You don't know if it has or hasn't been tried, but I'm sure it's been thought of. You are doing it for free of your own accord. You don't think devs would want that 18k bounty way back when? Like I said above, if you have the knowledge, by all means, contact a developer, prove your worth, and I'm sure he/she will let you into their work, with all their notes or whatnot of what they tried that worked/didn't work.
If the bootloader is locked, that means unsigned code is not allowed at the lowest level. Why would an SD card work, when it goes through the OS which goes through the bootloader? Your idea of a JTAG makes a tiny bit more sense than the SD card one, because JTAG is at low hardware level. I didn't bother posting in your thread, because I figured you'd do what you want to regardless of what people say.
I recognized the FCC argument. I don't have an answer against that, but I'm sure/assuming Verizon does. But my justification was, why does Verizon have to answer to you specifically. You don't have a case because you're not going to court with it.
Edit: I can't remember for the life of me where I read about this stuff, all I remember was searching for some very specific bootloader question (a month ago?) that I wanted to know the answer to. The person was describing why root is so easy to achieve compared to a bootloader unlock and said something along the lines of: for root, all you have to do is inject stuff into a rom and see if it sticks. For a bootloader exploit, a failed attempt bricks the phone so that not even a JTAG will salvage it.
The search also led me to a phone which I also don't remember, I believe it was something older, but two devs "charged" $25 per unlock to recover the costs of the phones they bricked.
It is similar to the HTC M9 where people buy expensive Java cards to unlock phones, and unlock them based on donations, but not the same. I'll keep looking to see if I can pull it up.
@dreamwave, Found it, it was actually the HTC M8, so I was close in my edit above. Note, this post also talks about failed bootloaders killing the phone. And note again the reason that counters your petition, but it has no "hard evidence" other than "some person" says it. But it makes logical sense, so it should be left as is (in my opinion, unless you have profound knowledge that says otherwise, because I know I don't). Verizon doesn't need to prove anything to anyone who isn't suing them, or who isn't causing red tape for them. It's a post by a recognized contributor quoting a moderator, the closest you'll get to what you want.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=54644576&postcount=10
The Java card that people are using do currently work for both the HTC M8 and M9, but are limited and expensive in comparison to the Sunshine exploit that they charge $25 for (look at the bottom of this post)
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=54126788&postcount=359
This is all I can provide for you in terms of hard facts. It is the conclusion made on older phones, and applies even more so on newer/current ones. Hope this helps.
Spartan117H3 said:
@dreamwave, Found it, it was actually the HTC M8, so I was close in my edit above. Note, this post also talks about failed bootloaders killing the phone. And note again the reason that counters your petition, but it has no "hard evidence" other than "some person" says it. But it makes logical sense, so it should be left as is (in my opinion, unless you have profound knowledge that says otherwise, because I know I don't). Verizon doesn't need to prove anything to anyone who isn't suing them, or who isn't causing red tape for them. It's a post by a recognized contributor quoting a moderator, the closest you'll get to what you want.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=54644576&postcount=10
The Java card that people are using do currently work for both the HTC M8 and M9, but are limited and expensive in comparison to the Sunshine exploit that they charge $25 for (look at the bottom of this post)
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=54126788&postcount=359
This is all I can provide for you in terms of hard facts. It is the conclusion made on older phones, and applies even more so on newer/current ones. Hope this helps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks, that helps a lot with the SD card thing and my idea there. As to the legal issue though, I disagree a bit with the person there, as though it is in Verizon's interest to keep locking them, well the letter of the law is the letter of the law...and I spoke to someone who isn't a lawyer by practice but did take the BAR exam, what they said was basically that "A lawsuit would be possible if I suffered damages, but wouldn't do much to their practices necessarily. Going through the FCC would involve two steps: a trial in which they will determine if a violation has occurred (my opinion is that one has occurred, and I posted as my last post on the JTAG unlock discussion thread my current arguments), and then a second trial in which remediatory actions/consequences will be decided. This would cover retroactive steps, which would likely include a system whereby a signed patch would be created, and customized (upon request to download) to respond to a specific IMEI/model number. This would allow for a corporation or licensing group to exclude a set of devices while allowing consumer versions to be unlocked. It really doesn't cost me anything to pursue this, and if it annoys Big Red and that's it, then so be it...I'm happy if it does Of course on the same note, Verizon hasn't specifically countered any of my statements/observations, and have really tried to exploit little technicalities such as footnotes 500 and 502 in the FCC auction release, but in each I was able to create responses that very directly opposed those in a way supported by a large amount of text in the release. I'm hoping it will work, even if I wouldn't bet a million bucks on it doing so.
dreamwave said:
Thanks, that helps a lot with the SD card thing and my idea there. As to the legal issue though, I disagree a bit with the person there, as though it is in Verizon's interest to keep locking them, well the letter of the law is the letter of the law...and I spoke to someone who isn't a lawyer by practice but did take the BAR exam, what they said was basically that "A lawsuit would be possible if I suffered damages, but wouldn't do much to their practices necessarily. Going through the FCC would involve two steps: a trial in which they will determine if a violation has occurred (my opinion is that one has occurred, and I posted as my last post on the JTAG unlock discussion thread my current arguments), and then a second trial in which remediatory actions/consequences will be decided. This would cover retroactive steps, which would likely include a system whereby a signed patch would be created, and customized (upon request to download) to respond to a specific IMEI/model number. This would allow for a corporation or licensing group to exclude a set of devices while allowing consumer versions to be unlocked. It really doesn't cost me anything to pursue this, and if it annoys Big Red and that's it, then so be it...I'm happy if it does Of course on the same note, Verizon hasn't specifically countered any of my statements/observations, and have really tried to exploit little technicalities such as footnotes 500 and 502 in the FCC auction release, but in each I was able to create responses that very directly opposed those in a way supported by a large amount of text in the release. I'm hoping it will work, even if I wouldn't bet a million bucks on it doing so.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok. Except exchange/military is most likely a greater majority of customers than us who want it unlocked. Time is money. Verizon hasn't countered because you're not talking to them, you're talking in a thread. Good luck with your lawsuit.
Spartan117H3 said:
Ok. Except exchange/military is most likely a greater majority of customers than us who want it unlocked. Time is money. Verizon hasn't countered because you're not talking to them, you're talking in a thread. Good luck with your lawsuit.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks (P.S.: I have an ongoing case through the FCC that's independent from XDA, a formal complaint directly to the FCC by methods they've provided)
dreamwave said:
Thanks (P.S.: I have an ongoing case through the FCC that's independent from XDA, a formal complaint directly to the FCC by methods they've provided)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is this really what you choose to "Live Free or Die" about? Or do you have too many irons in the fire, and this is just the most annoying? People in New Hampshire have nothing better to do than to sue Verizon for something they have no chance of winning...
ldeveraux said:
Is this really what you choose to "Live Free or Die" about? Or do you have too many irons in the fire, and this is just the most annoying? People in New Hampshire have nothing better to do than to sue Verizon for something they have no chance of winning...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Except I'm not suing them, I'm using the methods our gov't has already put in place specifically for occasions such as this. I'm not arguing damages, it's not a lawsuit, it's an FCC complaint...something really different that I think I've explained a couple times
P.S.: I have a lot more that I do, this doesn't take much of my time and as a high school student I basically consider stuff like this a hobby, and have you ever been to New Hampshire? I'm from the southern half of middle NH...not that many "gun wielding hicks" around these parts
I got the phone from a friend who dunked it in a lake and thought it was dead, I figured I'd try and get some use out of it and discovered the larger issue on the part of Verizon. Considering the number of people at my school who ask me to root their phone, being able to tell them "sure" and not ask if they use Verizon (most of them do) first would be really nice.
...this thread got really off topic didn't it
dreamwave said:
Except I'm not suing them, I'm using the methods our gov't has already put in place specifically for occasions such as this. I'm not arguing damages, it's not a lawsuit, it's an FCC complaint...something really different that I think I've explained a couple times
P.S.: I have a lot more that I do, this doesn't take much of my time and as a high school student I basically consider stuff like this a hobby, and have you ever been to New Hampshire? I'm from the southern half of middle NH...not that many "gun wielding hicks" around these parts
I got the phone from a friend who dunked it in a lake and thought it was dead, I figured I'd try and get some use out of it and discovered the larger issue on the part of Verizon. Considering the number of people at my school who ask me to root their phone, being able to tell them "sure" and not ask if they use Verizon (most of them do) first would be really nice.
...this thread got really off topic didn't it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
High school student... nevermind, kablock...
What do you mean?
Related
mikechannon said:
"In general "I hate my phone" threads neither contribute soluactions to problems nor do they seek answers to problems in a calm and reasoned way.
These forums are for the giving and receiving of information that assists users to get the best from their device - it is not a vehicle for "sounding-off" about your phone.
This thread does have some useful content, so I will not delete it but will close it as relevant points have already been made.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok .... so, the fact that we know HTC pay attention to people gripes, comments and compliments on these forums.... if that had been a "we love HTC thread" would that have been closed?
I agree being rude and obnoxious are very good reasons but ... why not censor the very few posts related to it. Why close the general dissastifaction with what appears to be a typical HTC release. Without a place to talk about the general failure of HTC, how can the majority of people learn? How can those prospective customers be aware of the challenges they need to overcome to turn a rubbish device (out of the factory) into a great device (after XDA and chefs)?
mikechannon said:
(In addition - this thread has been reported by Members)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And it appears all you have to do is complain about a thread, not be justified in your complaint.
The one thing i've always used in years is the xda forums and some of that i haven't even owned a HTC device. Like it or not, most people here have invested a lot of hard earned cash (or will over the next 18/24 months) and that will naturaly attract an emotional value - hence some anger when something like this doesn't work. The fact there was so much feeling in that thread should indicate the level of "emotion" about it and the incensed feeling they have about the amount people feel they have spent, money and time, on a device they are so unhappy about. Maybe if you guys created a "vent here thread" you might get to allow people to rant AND get usefull threads - heck, even HTC might read the "vent here thread!" and take note?
I'm so worried after reading todays threads in particular, about ordering mine earlier today but sadly nothing else that supports FULL exchange meets my requirements. I know my consumer rights and will use them to the full should I need to but I hope not it does have so many great points.
Monty Burns said:
Ok .... so, the fact that we know HTC pay attention to people gripes, comments and compliments on these forums....
We don't know that for sure. There are many on here who would disagree, saying that for them, if HTC were listening, then perceived problems would have been resolved quicker.
I agree being rude and obnoxious are very good reasons but ... why not censor the very few posts related to it. Why close the general dissatisfaction with what appears to be a typical HTC release. Without a place to talk about the general failure of HTC, how can the majority of people learn? How can those prospective customers be aware of the challenges they need to overcome to turn a rubbish device (out of the factory) into a great device (after XDA and chefs)?
Problem with this argument is that there are some on here who don't wish to face those challenges, which is fair enough. However what they do is to gripe about it and not help themselves, even when you point them in the right direction.
And it appears all you have to do is complain about a thread, not be justified in your complaint.
Not sure where you get that from. Please provide evidence of this or retract.
The one thing i've always used in years is the xda forums and some of that i haven't even owned a HTC device. Like it or not, most people here have invested a lot of hard earned cash (or will over the next 18/24 months) and that will naturally attract an emotional value - hence some anger when something like this doesn't work. The fact there was so much feeling in that thread should indicate the level of "emotion" about it and the incensed feeling they have about the amount people feel they have spent, money and time, on a device they are so unhappy about. Maybe if you guys created a "vent here thread" you might get to allow people to rant AND get useful threads - heck, even HTC might read the "vent here thread!" and take note?
Any "ranting", as you put it, should be made direct to HTC. XDA-Developers is exactly that; a developers site with a lot of interested non-developers in it. Its not the place to take out your frustrations against a manufacturer.
Re your point on hard earned cash being spent, I can't disagree with this. However ask these people how many of them went out and gave the device a really good test drive and an assessment of whether it would meet their needs or not and you will be silenced by the response.
I'm so worried after reading todays threads in particular, about ordering mine earlier today but sadly nothing else that supports FULL exchange meets my requirements. I know my consumer rights and will use them to the full should I need to but I hope not it does have so many great points.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you have doubts about this device then don't buy it. You will be severely disappointed. If you have not taken time out to test drive one before putting your order in then, with respect, more fool you.
Finally, moderators on here bend over backwards NOT to close threads or be seen as censoring debate. However we have to keep a balance and if, in our judgment, a thread is getting out of hand or no longer has any value nor serve any useful purpose then it will be closed.
All the best,
WB
as you've quoted inside of quotes you have made it really dificult for me to "quote" back - nice job! (although i suspect not deliberate).
"We don't know that for sure. There are many on here who would disagree, saying that for them, if HTC were listening, then perceived problems would have been resolved quicker."
Yeah ok. So the very big majority of Winmob market phones are produced by HTC, this site is dedicated to HTC (and historicaly Winmob).... do you REALLY think they don't read these forums? Really? Honestly? Are you sure?
"Problem with this argument is that there are some on here who don't wish to face those challenges, which is fair enough. However what they do is to gripe about it and not help themselves, even when you point them in the right direction."
I agree. There are SOME who want to gripe. There are a ship load more who want to make a device work but can't, no matter the support they get from the community - random users suffering from the SMS bug for example? The very fact most of these people have googled/have knowledge of these forums, means that they have at least gone to some effort to resolve an issue. So yes some, but a VERY small number. So, how can they air the frustrations they have? where? Maybe the most expansive and read HTC forums... thats a good place to start!
"And it appears all you have to do is complain about a thread, not be justified in your complaint.
Not sure where you get that from. Please provide evidence of this or retract."
*sigh* .... ok .... i'll come back to this but, i did quote, if you really want me to link to a thread closed in the past 10 minutes other than i already quoted your mod. I will.
"Any "ranting", as you put it, should be made direct to HTC. XDA-Developers is exactly that; a developers site with a lot of interested non-developers in it. Its not the place to take out your frustrations against a manufacturer."
Yeah ya know, it was a developers site years ago.... its not any more and hasn't been for a long time. Its a cookers and users site now. If you still think HTC don't read this forum then .... The sites success over the years can also be its greatest strength if you let it.
Now this isn't a problem of the site itself, more one with many reviews and fanboys of ALL phones, Iphone, HTC, Nokia....
"Re your point on hard earned cash being spent, I can't disagree with this. However ask these people how many of them went out and gave the device a really good test drive and an assessment of whether it would meet their needs or not and you will be silenced by the response."
Trying out a phone is a shop is a VERY diferent affair to OWNING one. Any person will know that, sadly though, many of us have to go by the reviews and forum comments that are available and try to filter out what may or may not be fanboy. Magazines, forum posts, personal reviews, blogs are all individual and very personal. Saying that someone should have reviewed more is simply not fair. Its impossible. Try asking your local O2 shop if you can take a phone away for a couple of weeks to try?
Hold on .... yes you can!!!! And that was the point of the last thread that got closed! Your fellow mod closed a thread which wasn't actually personal to anyone and (from a personal fed up with moaners point of view) I was trying educate people who purchased there phones in the UK that they had a bucket load of rights. If they are not happy, and it was purchased from the uk, then please "turn it in!" and return it.
Now from my pov, i'm a londoner (can you tell?) but i work all over the world. Currently im in Durban (yeah I was there at the test match! and met the England team) but out here they dont have the HD 2 so, I have to go on the reviews etc. Some people out here will spend near on £600 getting it imported from Expansys UK (ummm .... co.za) and other sites.
also..
Can i provide evidence? No. It was not made public so all I can assume is that if I PM a mod, things will be closed:
mikechannon said:
"In general "I hate my phone" threads neither contribute soluactions to problems nor do they seek answers to problems in a calm and reasoned way.
These forums are for the giving and receiving of information that assists users to get the best from their device - it is not a vehicle for "sounding-off" about your phone.
This thread does have some useful content, so I will not delete it but will close it as relevant points have already been made.
(In addition - this thread has been reported by Members)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How can i provide more evidence than that? I'm not privvy to your private messages. The previous line though backs up my "love HTC or go away" argument to a small extent:
mikechannon said:
This thread does have some useful content, so I will not delete it but will close it as relevant points have already been made.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I really think you guys, having helped, actually almost pushed HTC to where they are should now use your position and be .... responsible(? maybe a bit strong)) ... finaly get off the HTC only band wagon. Let them know that the stunning products they produce will no longer be accepted only 90% complete.
Ok. Lets be realistic. I ain't gona change your minds on anything and I don't want you to rebel against HTC as they make amazing hardware but, at least, in the position you have got.... maybe create a "if your gone B*&% and let off steam, do it in this thread?" thread? Maybe, just maybe there will be a common thread in it that HTC will finaly get to grips with .....?
Oh, and i've had a tytn, tytn 2 and having had both of those replaced under warranty i thought... no! Poke it! And had a tosh g900 when most people couldnt even spell 800 res screens and then foolishly went to a TD. That was refunded quickly under sales of goods act. Have an Acer M900 but due to the fact i'm living in south africa and i purchased that under my company contract, i now need to replace next week when im back in the UK. I was looking at a Milestone but the exchange support is rubbish at best. So, I have a week to try the HD2 or return it as not fit for purpose.... I do however, really want it to work!
And one final word.... my best winmob device without a device? Well two actually .... the Samsung Omnia and the baggage reconciliation devices i'm working with at the new Durban airport (what??? its not just a PHONE O/S!!!!??)
My opinion.
Here's an example of 2 threads.
MY HD2 IS THE WORST FONE ON THE PLANIT
I bought this fone for £x000 dollars and it should do everything I can ever imagine, rite out of the out of the box. I am disgusted that HTC expect ME to fix their problems.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
SMS didn't send
Hi everyone.
I tried to send a text message to my friends earlier and it's stuck in my outbox. Does anyone know why this might be? Does anyone have a suggestion as to what I should do about it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This forum is not about defending or slating any particular device. It is meant for users to get together and talk about ways to make the experience better. This forum is not responsible for the fact that some hardware that comes out of some factory and gets some software installed on it is not 100% perfect!
Now for 1 moment, can we please put aside arguments regarding the device and talk about the forum? Which of the above 2 threads is the most constructive?
Thank you.
johncmolyneux said:
Here's an example of 2 threads.
This forum is not about defending or slating any particular device. It is meant for users to get together and talk about ways to make the experience better. This forum is not responsible for the fact that some hardware that comes out of some factory and gets some software installed on it is not 100% perfect!
Now for 1 moment, can we please put aside arguments regarding the device and talk about the forum? Which of the above 2 threads is the most constructive?
Thank you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
More to the point, what is the point of leaving the first example open? At the very least there should be a dedicated section for those unhelpful posts (as [★] suggested yesterday) but I think they should just be closed as they're so worthless.
Do you work for a newspaper?
Both comments are usefull. Just because you don't see the use in both doesn't mean they are not usefull. Does that mean 10% of men don't like brand x of condoms so they should be ignored of Fred Smiths Condom appreciation website?
(sorry thats a really poor example but its 2am here in SA and i've been on the beer and Eve-online and films for a few hours )
Very fair play to you for putting forward an argument (non abusive as I would hope) and maybe catch up tomorrow.
Monty,
You are a Londoner eh? I should have known. You lot are nothing but trouble makers!
First off sorry about the quotes within quotes; didn't realise it stopped you from quoting back. Now that I do...
OK, lots in your post that I could come back on in detail but I won't because I'm the sort of chap that likes going forwards, not looking back in self pity or whatever.
The one thing that you have suggested, and you are not the first, is that we think on somewhere where people can let off steam WITHOUT cluttering up the forums. As you know there is some work going on as to how best we can restructure the place to make it better. Can I ask you to be a little patient while all this gets worked through.
In the meantime, think on the following:
- Help us to support people who need and want help and please be robust about those that don't but just fancy a moan and upsetting people on here without ever really wanting to seek help or to help themselves (the word Troll comes to mind).
- If you look at the Development & Hacking forums you will see that Development is stronger than ever and does not change what this place is all about. The work of the chefs is recognised and appreciated, and you can argue that is also development so 2-0 there.
- Lets all try to be a little adult, constructive and get along a little. I can tell you that, from a Mods perspective, we really want to be doing other things to make people's lives on here better rather than spending time closing threads down because people just can't have a little respect for each other. I often wonder whether anyone ever reads the forum rules.
Finally thank you for keeping on the straight and narrow re this thread and not going off the rails and getting it closed.
WB
jakem said:
More to the point, what is the point of leaving the first example open? At the very least there should be a dedicated section for those unhelpful posts (as [★] suggested yesterday) but I think they should just be closed as they're so worthless.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I totally agree mate (hence the support in said thread raised by [★] yesterday.)
I find this site a ridiculously valuable source of information when I need help with my phone, and I find it disheartening to have to wade through complaint after complaint just in order to get to constructive discussions.
If I wanted to live in troll city, I'd pack all my stuff into boxes; call a removals company; do some browsing of estate agents and property letting agents; check the reputation of the areas I was interested in and then guess what.... MOVE TO TROLL CITY!
I'm a placid guy generally, but some posts really make me struggle to just not tell the OP where to go.
+9999999 recurring to real constructive users of this site.
-9999999 recurring to trolls (and we know you don't think you're a troll, but you are.)
Monty Burns said:
Do you work for a newspaper?
Both comments are usefull. Just because you don't see the use in both doesn't mean they are not usefull. Does that mean 10% of men don't like brand x of condoms so they should be ignored of Fred Smiths Condom appreciation website?
(sorry thats a really poor example but its 2am here in SA and i've been on the beer and Eve-online and films for a few hours )
Very fair play to you for putting forward an argument (non abusive as I would hope) and maybe catch up tomorrow.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If 10% of men don't like brand x of condoms then they should definitely speak their mind. They would be wrong though to go to a forum that supports uses of brand x condoms and slate them. A support forum is for support.
OK first, no idea who Martin is. (Its Monty spelt the wrong way - doh)
Second, guys sounds like we might have a good conversation on the values of "to HTC or not HTC" although I might be on the wrong side, despite just spending a bucket load of fivers on a HT2.
Please, keep it clean and (well funny if you can't) but not personaly insulting. Everyone on a keyboard is a human being!
Be safe, have fun!
Monty Burns said:
OK first, no idea who Martin is.
Second, guys sounds like we might have a good conversation on the values of "to HTC or not HTC" although I might be on the wrong side, despite just spending a bucket load of fivers on a HT2.
Please, keep it clean and (well funny if you can't) but not personaly insulting. Everyone on a keyboard is a human being!
Be safe, have fun!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with that totally, but I do think this thread should be moved to a general area. Let's face it, it's hardly HD2 specific now is it!
It would be nice to see everyone's thoughts on this, rather than just the ones with The God Phone. (Just kidding - that was meant to incite trouble )
To be fair, those "I hate this phone" ranting type threads really do spiral into a hate fest or at least the few I've seen. If a topic is interesting and you comment on it, and go back later to see how it develops when all that is left is just insults, it has no use to most if not all.
johncmolyneux said:
I agree with that totally, but I do think this thread should be moved to a general area. Let's face it, it's hardly HD2 specific now is it!
It would be nice to see everyone's thoughts on this, rather than just the ones with The God Phone. (Just kidding - that was meant to incite trouble )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Argh! I'm not a god!!! (although I think I am, with my size 9 shoes... bow down before me!)
Seriously, maybe a good idea. I guess in an odd way this may complement (orb3000s?) the other thread vote about should it be HTC or not site? We don't know you server statistics of course but, we can hope that we can get to the stage where we can give our opinion on HTC honestly..... ( i wanted to deleted that and not type it as its not fair, i think we can, mostly ).
In my view its like a really cool manopoly. The games fun to play for almost all of us (i may/may not include myself in that after 2 years HTC abscense on next Friday) but for some it really sucks cos they keep losing.
I would think that moving it to an adult discussion of the real benefits as us users see if you become "open" but, we have no idea of the server costs... only you guys do.
(you do of course know that pressure will mount and mount and mount with regards to non-HTC phones. Your not silly Samsung, LG, Acer.... to name but a few know that the serious money is in smart phones in the next few years, not feature. In Slough o2 test 150-200 meg 4g phones a couple of weeks ago )
From what I understand, this is a developers forum. i.e. look to the potential rather than to the faults as is.
There are far too many distracting threads along the lines of "the virtual keyboard is killing me", "my wife left me because of the battery life", "the pink camera issue made me kill my neighbour". These type of threads may have valid points but they are all a bit melodramatic and really don't serve the purpose of the forum very well as they fan the flames of discontent rather that rise to the can-fix mindset. Despite what the trolls (for want of a better word) might like to say, this isn't a fanboi site, it's for those who realise a problem and want to solve it, simply just improve things, or just want to tweak things just because they can! I'm sure most of us here are all too aware of the shortcomings of Windows mobile software, just as we recognise the potential & strengths of this platform.
Speaking as a self-confessed technophile I will admit to spending an not inconsiderable amount of hard-earned money on utter crap i.e. gadgets that promised so much, yet delivered so little or were simply just badly executed. The HD2 is non of these, it's a stunning piece of design & engineering. It's not perfect, for example: the sharp edges of the camera lens annoy me a little, but it doesn't induce a desire in me to vent my spleen to the world.
I'm optimistic, I hope to survive longer than my HD2 and maybe via this forum HTC will hear my concern for this non-life threatening design flaw and engineer a more ergonomic lens cover for the next mobile phone I get. If they don't, it will undoubtedly leave a microscopic void in my life, but I'm strong enough to move on and no doubt the HTC designers will burn in hell for their tardiness.
xda-developers is what is says and is a great community that helps us get the best from these intriguing phones, so please diss the efforts of those who contribute and recognise that enthusiasm is a far better fertilizer for technology than manure.
Besides that, looking at my HD2 I've just noticed that it's going to be wet & windy at "My Location" tomorrow. That's fifty miles away and I'm not even going there, so it's a win for me!
I called and spoke to the arrogant person who ran this ad on Craigs List and found out they he truly thinks what he is doing is "alright". From what I see, using ROMS created here and posted by DEVs here at XDA to make cash is a little more than shady. When I called, I posed as a customer and tried not to laugh as the guy stuttered through the "how to" of installing Android. The funny thing is that he claims they are doing a FULL INSTALL of Android, "converting" the phone to Android from WM.................. They are charging people $99 for this "service". I told the guy that $99 sounded a little high a charge just to drop a folder on a SD card (yeah..i know theres a lil more to it but I'm sure that comment made him feel stupid after telling me the "how to" of it all..lol). I also told him that i was a member here at XDA and I wanted to know which ROMS he was using to make this money. He told me he was "Charging for the ROMs, just the service". My problem with that is this, HE didnt create the roms and NEVER claimed to. He DID however admit to being a member here.........................
http://panamacity.craigslist.org/mob/2043941262.html
What do you think?
like i said the guy said he is a member here...so if you're reading this please do share your inane little excuses for what you are doing. Just wondering, do you happen to send a check at the end of the month to each of the DEVs for use of their ROMS? Or is this something that is not frowned upon around this community UNLIKE others?
get everyone you can to to flag this as prohibited and spam him with emails saying how wrong it is.
people disgust me..... what they will do to make a little money..... stealing other peoples work and marketing it as their own. lying cheating little worthless ******** ******* **********
malaeus said:
get everyone you can to to flag this as prohibited and spam him with emails saying how wrong it is.
people disgust me..... what they will do to make a little money..... stealing other peoples work and marketing it as their own. lying cheating little worthless ******** ******* **********
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Everyone should give the guy a call and let him know how they feel about it. I asked the idiot whos roms he is using and he wouldnt say anything. He actually gave the phone over to some arrogant little prick who said, "you have a great day sir". The idiot didnt even try to defend himself or "explain" why they are charging $99 to put Android on HD2s.
done
no more issues!
This posting has been flagged for removal
(The title on the listings page will be removed in just a few minutes.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This scam has been around for a while unfortunately
Sent from my HTC HD2 using XDA App
Unfortunately these ass-clowns will just pop up somewhere else, but well done guys, I cant stand people who make money in this way, $99 vs a little research, I know what I would rather do.
Look at this guy!
http://newyork.craigslist.org/que/mob/2043679363.html
and look what this one claims! LOL
http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/mob/2044497140.html
Yeah I've seen this ads also but never $99 that's just crazy.
These guys post these ads waiting for people who don't know about sites like XDA. I got a lot of people around my way who have an HD2 and want Android or custom wm rom and I just text them the forum link and tell them to READ and LEARN. If you start doing it for them they call you drowning you with questions and problems because we all know no Android build is perfect (yet) and you can't sell something that's going to turn a one time sale into series of complaints from customers you charged for something you never created yourself.
Shame on these guys and they should be banned from XDA.
I ran across one like that in my local area CL a few weeks back. I simply took his original subject line and added [FAKE] at both ends, then posted pretty much the full instructions on setting up Android on HD2 in my reply. Copied and pasted the whole deal and saved it to a txt file so I would have it if ever I happen to see it on there again.
These folks are the lowest of the low. Making money from other folks hard work, and screwing their so called customers as well. Pure slime!
What these guys were doing is obviously wrong. I wonder where the line is, exactly?
I mean, time is valuable and if you're taking the time to mod someone's phone for them, compensation isn't unreasonable.
Personally, the few times I've "redone" someone's phone, I've done it out of the goodness of my heart in the interest of paying it forward.
For an HD2, though? It doesn't get much easier than dropping some files onto an SD card, ya know? Doing my friend's MyTouch 3G was a pain simply because of the different models out there. Doing recon on a phone I don't own was enough of a pain to think about taking money but the notion of using someone else's work to profit was enough to make me think otherwise.
Thoughts?
Update:
the idiot actually called my phone wanting to know what my problem was! It seems that he was a little paranoid about the first phone call I made to him. I let him know that his CL ad was posted here on xda and people would be flagging his ads. He asked if I had posted his number, I told him "no but of course its in your ad so whatever".
This idiot actually said that what he is doing is no different than charging someone to fix a car. Saying, "mechanics use knowledge, parts and tools that they did not create". WTF? I tried for 20 min to help him understand that people are kind enough to make these roms and that he is wrong for using them for profit. At the end of the conversation I was right where I started, he just didn't get it. I've said it before and ill say it again, the world wasn't ready for the technology we have now and is you want proof, just walk into a room and ask how many techs are willing to help you with something........every idiot with an internet connection is the next Dave Wozniack (sorry if I spelled Woz's name wrong)
Sent from my HTC HD2 using XDA App
Sleef said:
What these guys were doing is obviously wrong. I wonder where the line is, exactly?
I mean, time is valuable and if you're taking the time to mod someone's phone for them, compensation isn't unreasonable.
Personally, the few times I've "redone" someone's phone, I've done it out of the goodness of my heart in the interest of paying it forward.
For an HD2, though? It doesn't get much easier than dropping some files onto an SD card, ya know? Doing my friend's MyTouch 3G was a pain simply because of the different models out there. Doing recon on a phone I don't own was enough of a pain to think about taking money but the notion of using someone else's work to profit was enough to make me think otherwise.
Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
people here usually lost their reasoning when seeing such topics. So don't bother having a constructive discussion on the time/energy spent on modding people's phones.
I wonder what HTC would think about people charging for this as it is a little naughty.
The devs don't charge, hell HTC probably get good ideas from them, so they're tolerated but if they had a list of people charging for this they might not look so kindly on them. Included is the unhappy customers who might have problems.
Karma's a ***** and I can see the day they WILL get ***** slapped back into the time before mobile phones...
jagpoag said:
Update:
the idiot actually called my phone wanting to know what my problem was! It seems that he was a little paranoid about the first phone call I made to him. I let him know that his CLUB ad was posted here on xda and people would be flagging his ads. He asked if I had posted his number, I told him "no but of course its in your ad so whatever".
This idiot actually said that what he is doing is no different than charging someone to fix a car. Saying, "mechanics use knowledge, parts and tools that they did not create". WTF? I tried for 20 min to help him understand that people are kind enough to make these roms and that he is wrong for using them for profit. At the end of the conversation I was right where I started, he just didn't get it. I've said it before and ill say it again, the world wasn't ready for the technology we have now and is you want proof, just walk into a room and ask how many techs are willing to help you with something........every idiot with an internet connection is the next Dave Wozniack (sorry if I spelled Woz's name wrong)
Sent from my HTC HD2 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
His comaparison to mechanics fixing your car is stupid. Mechanics charge and fix cars with other peoples products but they pay for those products. What is he giving the developers who make the roms and builds? Taking your time to do something might be worth some compensation and that really depends if it requires a skill you have trained or studied for but something as simple as flashing and copying over a folder is not worth the crazy fees their charging especially for something that is made by developers for a community of smartphone users who can voluntarily donate. The guides are there for everyone to do this on their own. You dont need special training or a college degree to get android on an HD2. All the hard work has been done already by the developers. The rest is simple.
tantrum829 said:
His comaparison to mechanics fixing your car is stupid. Mechanics charge and fix cars with other peoples products but they pay for those products. What is he giving the developers who make the roms and builds? Taking your time to do something might be worth some compensation and that really depends if it requires a skill you have trained or studied for but something as simple as flashing and copying over a folder is not worth the crazy fees their charging especially for something that is made by developers for a community of smartphone users who can voluntarily donate. The guides are there for everyone to do this on their own. You dont need special training or a college degree to get android on an HD2. All the hard work has been done already by the developers. The rest is simple.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This guy is one of those that talks down to people and tries to convince everyone around him that anything he does is of some alien skill that other humans just cant seem to grasp. I'm sure a lot of you know the type, the "gurus" as I've heard them called...lol. These people are all the same, google is the only "knowledge" they have on any subject at the end of the day.
I had fun with the guy over the phone to say the very least. He could not answer any of my questions at all, just wanted to keep insulting me and making inane excuses. As far as the mechanic comment, he also tried to compare what he is doing to the work performed by a barber shop Typical idiot with the money to open a store but not enough knowledge to actually do anything worth a crap for customers. I fix computers for people who have taken their PCs to guys like this all the time. They all have a lot of stock in the store, pretty lights and talk "over your head" to try and smoke screen the fact that they really dont know anything past formatting your hard drive and installing windows all over again to fix ANYTHING....its pathetic.
Anyways, I will continue to contact anyone I see posting things like this on CL when I see them just as I have been doing for years with people posting "I can jailbreak your IDevice for $" ads. I cant stop them all but if everyone would call them out when they see it being done, maybe they would wake up. Like I told the guy on the phone, I'm sure there are teenagers here at XDA that have a bright future and create ROMs for the community. It's bad enough that someone like him would use another persons work for profit but stealing from kids also?
I noticed I started this thread in the wrong section, I'm sorry about that. Thanks to whomever moved it for me.
richteralan said:
people here usually lost their reasoning when seeing such topics. So don't bother having a constructive discussion on the time/energy spent on modding people's phones.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Heh. You're probably right.
I guess, ideally, if you're working on a phone that actually takes some time and effort to spiff up, you could say "Give me five bucks and put five bucks into (your dev here)'s paypal account."
Those are arbitrary figures but you get the idea. I'm sure scumbags will still profit without giving credit or a share of the loot but there's also the notion that some people will do it honestly.
I see your point guys but I cannot agree with you at all.
I'll say it with just a few words: capitalism, time and money. Those words should explain the whole situation.
What is more, I don't think it's just copying files to an SD Card. It takes a lot of time to test everything and to fix specific problems with the roms themselves. To know exactly what's the difference between a TMobile HD2, or Telstra HD2, etc.
I respect people's work here. I also try to donate to any person that makes my HD2 happy But I don't think you can criticise that guy's work. Personally, I've been more than one month spending my time on Android and I know for sure most people won't be able to do it the way I do. You're also working on borrowed hardware designed to run windows mobile and finally but most important you are working on other people's software (Android Kernel, Hi Mr. Google and thanks for that BTW) that made all of this possible.
Guys, think it this way. What's better? To have someone with experience taking all responsability working on your phone? Or to have a nice, expensive and useless brick (TMobile HD2 and .50 radios anybody?).
Ok, let the flame on me begin
This unfortunately isn't the first time I've these douchebags taking credit from our hardworking devs. Ill do my part and flag down their postings.
Sent from my HTC Magic using XDA App
http://mcallen.en.craigslist.org/mob/2043216730.html
http://mcallen.en.craigslist.org/mob/2042750762.html
Sorry i don't get why most you are so upset when it comes to charging for a service. You r all talking about giving no credit and making money with other peoples work.
I have to say I am a experienced pc user but it took me a couple of days reading, researching to get my first build to work properly. Even now I have some pickups from time to time. Not talking about bricking phones while flashing a well working window build and a good radio Rom.
I totally agree with you that its kind of shabby to charge for other peoples work. But in this case the guy is responsible to get the phone up and running like his customers expect it. If he bricks a phone he has to replace it, if he breaks the phone physically he has to replace it, if his customer is unhappy with his work he has to refund and I haven't even mentioned the time he needs to get Android running, shipping the phone answering phone calls and so on.
It's like charging for fixing other peoples pc, console what ever... you get charged for the service. What do you think how much OS software is used out there and you get charged. Those people invest there time and effort to get something working what you can't do because you are not callable, don't have time, take the risk or any other reason you could think of. It's like those guys are selling instructions and telling you how to do it on your own bit don't take any responsibility if something is not working as expected. What do you think how many people go to service stores to get there cell phones fixed, updated, debranded or what ever? thousands every day and they get charged for it. What do you think those guys are using? You are right, tool that other people created and some of them they don't have to pay for.
Are you working without charge for your customers? You seems to be the welfare. Do you wanna come over and mow my lawn, clean my house and fan me some fresh air with a palm leaf?
$99 sounds much to us and even for me i won't take this service for that price. If somebody is willing to spent it, he should go ahead and do it. If somebody else is willing to offer the same service for a lower price, even better. And somebody is willing to do it without payment, perfect. But the last guy shouldn't complain if he is not able to pay his bills.
post is free for rant.
€dit: @jagpoag, you are a prick! sorry normally i don't call anybody i never spoke to, names he might get upset about. but your last post was just ridiculousness. Complaining about the wording, the argumentation, knowledge and language. You might wanna read your post again and reconsider your wording, spelling and so on. Ever thought about the fact that English is not the main language for somebody. oh no i forgot, you are American, just to bring up a little bit more preconceptions. Not everybody is as bright as you are figuring out technical thinks in the time you can. My mother can't, my sister can't, my boss can't and a whole lot of other people i know would kill there phones with inattention. they don't even want to figure out stuff like that, because they are not interested in it and are willing and able to pay somebody else for things they don't want any hassle with. I would have much more harsh words for you but i think i would get kicked out of a great place called xda-dev if i really say what i am thinking.
Sent from my HTC Leo running Android using XDA App
To people that troll the forum... shut up if you arent helping with dev...
Especially dont be rude and drive them away... They are our only hope until moto releases an unlock bootloader - if ever
P.S I know this isnt dev related... But I hope the post can be here for a bit so people can see this.
Link below... CellZealot pointed out we arent very warm to people just trying to help.... Lets not be like that....
http://www.mydroidworld.com/forums/android-hacks/6511-moto-atrix-4g.html#post58112
Hopefully, "Recognized Developer" status will help with this, since it will allow said developers to partially police their own threads (yay the ability to close your own thread until you're ready to say more!). But that's still several weeks away.
Sogarth said:
Hopefully, "Recognized Developer" status will help with this, since it will allow said developers to partially police their own threads (yay the ability to close your own thread until you're ready to say more!). But that's still several weeks away.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1. Can't come quickly enough
It really does astound me the amount if hatred and misinformation being spread around about this device, and a lot of it comes from people who don't even own one, or used it for a day and returned it. Very sad indeed. I agree with Sogarth, though
+1 So many people just spew out things not fully understanding, or make statements because they made changes to their device that they don't fully understand. My viewpoint is if you are going to make a change to your device, you should know what the change you are making is and the consequences of such. If you modify your software by modding files know that updates released by the manufacturer will not work on your device unless you put it back to factory.
Quite a few people here state moto is intentionally bricking their device because they can't install the update over their mods. It's problematic because it breeds misinformation as well as hatred/flamewars on the boards
Ririal said:
It really does astound me the amount if hatred and misinformation being spread around about this device, and a lot of it comes from people who don't even own one, or used it for a day and returned it. Very sad indeed. I agree with Sogarth, though
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1. Without Dev's, this device is just another "one year wonder" (if even in my use). We need to attract Devs, not push them away.
naturefreak85 said:
+1 So many people just spew out things not fully understanding, or make statements because they made changes to their device that they don't fully understand. My viewpoint is if you are going to make a change to your device, you should know what the change you are making is and the consequences of such. If you modify your software by modding files know that updates released by the manufacturer will not work on your device unless you put it back to factory.
Quite a few people here state moto is intentionally bricking their device because they can't install the update over their mods. It's problematic because it breeds misinformation as well as hatred/flamewars on the boards
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For some reason this reminded me of an article on Engadget that was posted a while back:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/23/editorial-the-dark-side-of-android-hacking/
I'm always amazed at how many people manage to fudge up their phones and don't take responsibility for it, or try and blame the developer. I think there was a flare up last night because an Android blog posted something in a similar vein stating CyanogenMod was "ruining" a bunch of phones.
Going back to the Nexus One, I've always been amazed by how people talk to the devs here. They have much thicker skin than I do, thankfully. Haha.
Gr8Danes said:
+1. Without Dev's, this device is just another "one year wonder" (if even in my use). We need to attract Devs, not push them away.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sigh... We really need devs badly for the atrix
That was one of the things I remembered reading a while back and it stuck with me, I remembered from my time working for Apple how people would **** up their phones jailbreaking it because they thought it would always be "one click and done". My girlfriend has an iPhone and wants to jailbreak it so she can do "cool things" with it. But she has no idea what the cool things she can do are. Nor the consequences that can happen should she mindlessly update her phone. Even I am sometimes skeptical of hacking my device until I know I can revert back.
As was said in Spiderman "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility"
In the end what people have to remember is that as Devs software gets cracked not because everyone asks for it to be done, but it's Because they can. Back in the day whenever someone would ask "Why are you bothering with this" the response was always "Why? Because I can." Users of the mods have to remember this and know that things don't always "Just work" you have to know what you are doing. Part of the reason I'm teaching myself bit by bit how to mod so I can take part properly in the Dev Community.
KaLiBLeeK said:
For some reason this reminded me of an article on Engadget that was posted a while back:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/23/editorial-the-dark-side-of-android-hacking/
I'm always amazed at how many people manage to fudge up their phones and don't take responsibility for it, or try and blame the developer. I think there was a flare up last night because an Android blog posted something in a similar vein stating CyanogenMod was "ruining" a bunch of phones.
Going back to the Nexus One, I've always been amazed by how people talk to the devs here. They have much thicker skin than I do, thankfully. Haha.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
naturefreak85 said:
In the end what people have to remember is that as Devs software gets cracked not because everyone asks for it to be done, but it's Because they can. Back in the day whenever someone would ask "Why are you bothering with this" the response was always "Why? Because I can." Users of the mods have to remember this and know that things don't always "Just work" you have to know what you are doing. Part of the reason I'm teaching myself bit by bit how to mod so I can take part properly in the Dev Community.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I remember that DEVS are doing this because they can, but now we have also some stimulus for the brave one(s) who'd crack the security issues that are preventing from flashing new kernels etc.
I also agree that if somebody is doing something with device like rooting, hacking Webtop or anything else should know what are they doing. I think that it'd be much more 'secure' - less number of bricked phones. But there are a lot of people that just want oneclick for everything, because the dont want/cant go into the command line, flashing or extraordinary instructions - its too complicated for them.
Moving this to general as not android development
hello, i've made an Automated Atrix ThatRom Installer.
This script will help noobs to do everything without any troubles.
The file is a rar archive with all firmware files + installer.
here is a link http://www.mobile-inform.com/content/view/1148/1/
this is early alpha. you take all responsibility on yourself. I do not recommend you to use this rom, but if you still want to use it - here it is
UPD Updated To ThatRom v2 (AtrICS)
all thanks to the author of ThatRomv2 (AtrICS), i made only the Installer!
With best regards
the_fly
I don't think that it's a good idea to make an automatic installer of something that it's no stable for someone who doesn't even know how to use fastboot nor flash a zip. Maybe when this finally reaches the stable "level", then you should do the Installer.
BravoMotorola said:
Maybe, until you're not annoying, you should stfu. Seriously stop trying to tell people what to do.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wow dude, that was really uncalled for. He is actually right because now the op has put himself in a position to be harassed by anyone who tries this and messes up their phone even though they should and do know the risks. He was just trying to be helpful, he wasn't attacking the op for making it.
I agree making an unstable, untested, developer test build easily available to newbies is a very bad idea. If they can't at the VERY least learn how to use fastboot and adb, they should come nowhere near this ROM. Unless of course you really want to be held responsible for dozens of bricked and/or unusable phones, and be expected to provide extensive support at all times.
if they are noobs - it is their problem. Everything is written befoure me.
Everyone takes responsibility for their actions.
There were several noobs who were crying about ICS even if they do not know what to do. and they are happy now, despite the bugs.
I am not, but i made for those who are. I am not going to tell anyone to install it, i did only help, but i suggest nobody to install it.
It doesn't work and you know it. It's as if there was some paid software that people want, and you made a crack/patch for it, and then you say you don't advise using it. Do you really think people will stay away just because you advised so? No, they won't. In fact in that case your disclaimers make no difference whatsoever, you are equally at fault for making it available as they are for using it. Why do you think all anti-piracy companies always go after crack makers and distributors and not so much after users? I mean many crack makers also advise against using their cracks. But people are stupid and never listen, and in in the eyes of many crack makers are the original offenders.
Or if you want a different analogy - go find a mentally unstable person who can't really think straight (may seem offensive but noobs who want test builds on their phones clearly do not know what they're doing), then place a bottle of some drugs and a fresh needle within easy reach, and then tell them you advise not using it. Observe what happens.
IMO this kind of things are best dealt with preemptively, by not even making the potentially controversial stuff easily available.
you see, i've made first script of unlocking the boot a year ago. a lot of peole thanked me. they were happy - they unlocked once and than used other ways to change the firmware. They were noobs, but happy noobs. 18 000 downloads (i think some of them were same persons, for example me - while i was testing, or when i was unlocking for my friends), but only 4!!! broken phones. 2 of them caused by bad motherboard and 2 of them by ignoring the manual and all the warnings.
This one is more easy one. less questins. less work. just use it.
and if person already have unlocked boot there will be no problem with this FW
and i want to mention it again some users are happy enought with this fw. Some do not have reboots, some have but for them it is ok.
You should tell everyone that this is a very alpha rom. It does run without multiple reboots for most people per the forums. I personally have tried all methods and cannot get it to run.
I appreciate your efforts but this is not something that noobs will get any value from. You should be very clear upfront.
Sent from my MB860 using xda app-developers app
agurzhiy said:
hello, i've made an Automated Atrix ThatRom Installer.
This script will help noobs to do everything without any troubles.
The file is a rar archive with all firmware files + installer.
With best regards
the_fly
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks agurzhiy!
I am a proud noob who used your unlock script and will use this one.
For all the pros which have a problem with this- you have the same approach as Motorola - "It's complicated you can't understand this". It's my choice what to do with my phone and agurzhiy providing us noobs with a possibility to participate in the effort to make it better.
The bottom line is instead of criticize why don't you spend this time and energy on creating and helping the community. Remember you were ones noobs too.
Sent from my MB860 using xda app-developers app
e07015 said:
You should tell everyone that this is a very alpha rom. It does run without multiple reboots for most people per the forums. I personally have tried all methods and cannot get it to run.
I appreciate your efforts but this is not something that noobs will get any value from. You should be very clear upfront.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i think everyone knows that it is alpha rom. nobody is going to install a script if if nobody knows what's inside. But i will add that it is alpha
ComX said:
For all the pros which have a problem with this- you have the same approach as Motorola - "It's complicated you can't understand this".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're missing my point entirely here. But that's okay. I don't want to argue anymore.
Is this just a fastboot script or an bootloader unlocker and ram fix etc etc
ravilov said:
You're missing my point entirely here. But that's okay. I don't want to argue anymore.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do not think that this is an argument. It is more like sharing different views on a subject.
I know what you mean, you want to prevent (or at least warn) noobs from taking the risk of bricking their phone and you are right 100%. But let me ask you how many of XDA readers are dumb enough to download some thing like this without reading at least a bit about it(*). Give ppl a little credit, most of us will stop on red light although it is possible to continue. Take me for example: I wanted to use nebtop but had a difficulty to understand how to root. Than mramirezusa came out with Automatic bootloader for noobs like me and boom - now I'm using the atrix as a streamer and without this tool I couldn't do this on my own. My point is that having a possibility to do stuff is highly appreciated.
* Ryan Dunn: If You Gonna be Dumb - You Gotta Be Tough.
this is a fastboot script to make it faster and easyer for a noob
UPDATE:
added the 32 bit version for x86 Windows
agurzhiy said:
UPDATE:
added the 32 bit version for x86 Windows
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dude, you've only been thanked here 7 times... Stop thinking so highly of yourself.
Unless you are going to stick around the forums helping these guys out when they have issues with your release, because they won't have anywhere else to go, and because other devs are busy with their own stuff, than you should probably refrain from posting anything that makes it easier to flash dangerous software.
Unless you're willing to help "guy xyz" (since quotes seem to be in) on "page 74" when he asks again, "why am i having video issues after flash", because your main post lacks important details and explanation and your web link is not multi-lingual, please refrain from posting content which could be perceived as harmful to use.
Any good software community recommends first releasing to a smaller test group in order to work out major bugs and minimize any potential impact the software may have on the device... And, any good service community would recommend first releasing to a smaller test group in order to create a base to compare full deployment scenarios against... In no cases would they make it easy to install buggy software on devices of users who can not adequately report issues during alpha stages of software.
Why is it so hard to understand how that applies here?
Zeljko1234 said:
IMO, you should stop spending so much time here on the forum arguing with people. Don't get me wrong but your posts are usually quite offensive (example what I saw today). You post almost in every thread, smartassing noobs, playing to be moderator... If you know something, share it, if post or thread is against the rules, report it.
Now you're arguing with guy who made first script of unlocking the bootloader and in the same time insinuate that many of xda members are just dump.
Forum, especially xda, is about sharing knowledge not giving useless advise/comment or to google it.
P.S.
Sorry everyone for off topic.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We try not to feed him, Zeljko1234... Just let him be.
Your point is well deserved; but don't feed the trolls.
knigitz said:
Dude, you've only been thanked here 7 times... Stop thinking so highly of yourself.
Unless you are going to stick around the forums helping these guys out when they have issues with your release, because they won't have anywhere else to go, and because other devs are busy with their own stuff, than you should probably refrain from posting anything that makes it easier to flash dangerous software.
Unless you're willing to help "guy xyz" (since quotes seem to be in) on "page 74" when he asks again, "why am i having video issues after flash", because your main post lacks important details and explanation and your web link is not multi-lingual, please refrain from posting content which could be perceived as harmful to use.
Any good software community recommends first releasing to a smaller test group in order to work out major bugs and minimize any potential impact the software may have on the device... And, any good service community would recommend first releasing to a smaller test group in order to create a base to compare full deployment scenarios against... In no cases would they make it easy to install buggy software on devices of users who can not adequately report issues during alpha stages of software.
Why is it so hard to understand how that applies here?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why don't you argue with epinter or any other person who put ThatRom?
Why are you arguing with me?
i made the thing easier, but i am not responsible for the uncomplete software. some people are lazy to use fastboot, but they know how to use it (i have flashed my phone 3 times while testing some of options to find out how it works)
other do not have enough knowledge to flash, but it's thair dream to have it, they are ready for the bugs and they alwas can ask me to help them to flash any other FW. And if they have unlocked boot - they can use CWM.
And the last group - the people who are just afraid to install after a lot of information about locking bootloaders. In russian community forums i've read 10 such questions from people who i know, from people who know how to use fastboot.
And if person do not want to install it - he may not install it!
I'm thankful to everyone who share knowledge. Even if I don't use everything, I usually download or read just to learn how. Without such guys, Internet itself will be mostly useless.
Do not blame anyone (especially epinter) for your mistake. He and many others guys spend a lot of their private time to figure how to do something, developing, supporting... and then sahre for free! As I can see, very rare they get donation. Almost never for the most loudest complainers which just wait that someone else will do something for them.
As I explained, as long as you are willing to stick around and help people with issues they encounter after flashing this, and provide more detailed instructions that people can read in your first post, it's not an issue.
Low thank count makes the more seasoned members cringe, as people release stuff that brick phones then disappear (it happens), leaving the community in a state of unrest trying to figure out the full impact of an unmaintained release, how many users were affected by the release, and a common way to fix the issues, and it leaves it up to other developers to explain to every xyz person to read this thread, read that thread, or flash this to fix.
Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2
How does one replace the iffy Kingo SuperUser app with the trustworthy chainfire SuperSU? The AFTV news site has a comment from an unhappy brick owner without many details that worries me.
I now see the sticky about no questions but a 20 minute post throttle prevents me from moving it. Kindly moderation staff to the rescue?
simplifiedconfusion said:
How does one replace the iffy Kingo SuperUser app with the trustworthy chainfire SuperSU? The AFTV news site has a comment from an unhappy brick owner without many details that worries me.
I now see the sticky about no questions but a 20 minute post throttle prevents me from moving it. Kindly moderation staff to the rescue?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ive just made a guide for this process.
Its over at fire tv android development.
Thumbs up if I helped you.
sconnyuk said:
Ive just made a guide for this process.
Its over at fire tv android development.
Thumbs up if I helped you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
link the "guide"
Spillunke said:
link the "guide"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe "look" for it?
Make it more complicate. Thats community friendly.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/fire-tv/development/guide-fire-stick-replace-king-o-root-t3440923
People can be encouraged to show some effort. Theres nothing bad there.
Its called "showing some initiative", "reading before posting", trying to solve the small issues for yourself, instead of relying on the almost (just the law of averages...) always medicore efforts of letting someone else provide you with your personalized answer - while you dont care who provides you with it. Wait - who was that person again?
TLDR; and "could I get some help", "make it as simple as possible" are not in the long term interest of any community. Actually it produces more dependencies and encourages exploitation.
Trying to spin a short and a little angry response in a way that the "hey poolboy, park my car" perspective would be the better one, because its is more social, because poolboy parked the car of "everyone" - is just wrong.
But you did the right thing, looked up the posting and referenced it in here. Congratulations. Now think about if it was a real issue that you had to do it, and not the actual source of in this case the tutorial itself.
There is a huge difference between providing something out of your own free will and "demanding" it for your own benefit (but ultimately also the benefit of others).
In philosophy this is called the "false begger" principle.
You didnt need the help of others, you tried to get it anyway - as soon as that didn't work, you did the expected thing to benefit your self interest, then you turned around and complained - that it could have been easier. For others. But ultimately for you.
In the end, someone has to do the work. Why not you - instead of the person that already put hours into realizing something that wasnt possible for us beforehand and shared the information.
Don't try to make that guy feel bad. In the end, if many people contribute, everyone wins. But you don't get a say in how much everyone should provide. Thats the deal. If you dont like it - you dont have to participate.
harlekinwashere said:
People can be encouraged to show some effort. Theres nothing bad there.
Its called "showing some initiative", "reading before posting", trying to solve the small issues for yourself, instead of relying on the almost (just the law of averages...) always medicore efforts of letting someone else provide you with your personalized answer - while you dont care who provides you with it. Wait - who was that person again?
TLDR; and "could I get some help", "make it as simple as possible" are not in the long term interest of any community. Actually it produces more dependencies and encourages exploitation.
Trying to spin a short and a little angry response in a way that the "hey poolboy, park my car" perspective would be the better one, because its is more social, because poolboy parked the car of "everyone" - is just wrong.
But you did the right thing, looked up the posting and referenced it in here. Congratulations. Now think about if it was a real issue that you had to do it, and not the actual source of in this case the tutorial itself.
There is a huge difference between providing something out of your own free will and "demanding" it for your own benefit (but ultimately also the benefit of others).
In philosophy this is called the "false begger" principle.
You didnt need the help of others, you tried to get it anyway - as soon as that didn't work, you did the expected thing to benefit your self interest, then you turned around and complained - that it could have been easier. For others. But ultimately for you.
In the end, someone has to do the work. Why not you - instead of the person that already put hours into realizing something that wasnt possible for us beforehand and shared the information.
Don't try to make that guy feel bad. In the end, if many people contribute, everyone wins. But you don't get a say in how much everyone should provide. Thats the deal. If you dont like it - you dont have to participate.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Could not of said it better myself.
harlekinwashere said:
People can be encouraged to show some effort. Theres nothing bad there.
Its called "showing some initiative", "reading before posting", trying to solve the small issues for yourself, instead of relying on the almost (just the law of averages...) always medicore efforts of letting someone else provide you with your personalized answer - while you dont care who provides you with it. Wait - who was that person again?
TLDR; and "could I get some help", "make it as simple as possible" are not in the long term interest of any community. Actually it produces more dependencies and encourages exploitation.
Trying to spin a short and a little angry response in a way that the "hey poolboy, park my car" perspective would be the better one, because its is more social, because poolboy parked the car of "everyone" - is just wrong.
But you did the right thing, looked up the posting and referenced it in here. Congratulations. Now think about if it was a real issue that you had to do it, and not the actual source of in this case the tutorial itself.
There is a huge difference between providing something out of your own free will and "demanding" it for your own benefit (but ultimately also the benefit of others).
In philosophy this is called the "false begger" principle.
You didnt need the help of others, you tried to get it anyway - as soon as that didn't work, you did the expected thing to benefit your self interest, then you turned around and complained - that it could have been easier. For others. But ultimately for you.
In the end, someone has to do the work. Why not you - instead of the person that already put hours into realizing something that wasnt possible for us beforehand and shared the information.
Don't try to make that guy feel bad. In the end, if many people contribute, everyone wins. But you don't get a say in how much everyone should provide. Thats the deal. If you dont like it - you dont have to participate.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Tl:dr
Doesnt work.
lofty5 said:
Doesnt work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Does work.
lofty5 said:
Doesnt work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sure it does...you did not even bother answeringto my question in the original link but post here a blank statement...
bula1ca said:
Sure it does...you did not even bother answeringto my question in the original link but post here a blank statement...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What question.