Sony's Camera isn't great, but it could be worse...

Sony's Camera isn't great, but it could be worse... - Xperia Z3 Compact General

We all give Sony a hard time for releasing flagship devices with mediocre camera performance. I personally can verify that my previous HTC phones (One mini, One S, and even the Ville aka MyTouch 4G) dating back nearly 4 years all had better color reproduction, white balance, indoor performance, and faster focus and shutter response. None of those were even considered flagship devices at the time of release. We assumed Sony's problem was the software, so many of us searched for 3rd party camera apps such as Google Camera, A Better Camera, Camera FV-5, etc... and some even claimed to get better results using these apps. I've tried just about all of them (free versions only) and never saw any dramatic improvement to make me replace the default camera app. I finally decided to compare shots side by side on a couple of my personal favorite camera apps and here's what I noticed:
The 3rd party apps over-exposed the scene with far too much flash, giving it that cold LED light look, and washing out some of the natural colors. But worst of all, they weren't as clear when zooming in as the default app was. Pay close attention to the can of WD40 in the back. Only the stock app makes the word "Directions" visibly clear. All photos were taken using Auto Mode at 8MP - the setting the average person will use daily.
Sample Photos In Order (from left to right):
- Sony Stock Camera App
- Google Camera App
- OpenCamera App
https://goo.gl/photos/ihkstAg95Ag8rybX7
I took a few comparison shots in scenes that I thought would cause the stock app to falter, but it kept coming through and beating the competition. For example, when taking a picture of a poster that was covered by a slight shadow, the stock app was the only app smart enough to use flash; thereby making the words of the poster much clearer. In another indoor scenario, the competition once again over exposed the scene with too much flash, washing out the colors again. I may post these photos later if you request them.
Moral of the story:
Compared to other smartphones (especially flagships), Sony's camera is simply one of the worst performers. <-----(This is a click-able link to the results of a test article) There is no argument here and someone from Sony needs to do something about it. But as for the stock Sony camera app, it appears to utilize the camera better than 3rd party apps can. So if you want to make the best of out our bad situation, stick with the stock camera app.

I agree that the camera on the Z3C is somewhat lacking.
Outdoors in good light it can produce some really nice photos (some of the time) although even in good conditions it still seems to make a mess of things on occasions. Indoors and low light it's just plain terrible. I've done a back to back comparison with my rather elderly SGS3 and in most circumstances the SGS3 knocks the spots off the Z3C.
The problem is marketing.
In order to produce compelling marketing material, Sony developed the 20MP sensor and put this in all their flagship phones. This is way too many MP for such a small sensor and as such the quality suffers badly in anything other than bright sunlight. Even when interpolating the image down to 8MP you still see way more noise than the equivalent true 8MP sensor and the details are mushed to buggery. I'd be happy for the resolution on smartphones to top out at 10MP, which should be enough for 4K video and multiple aspect ratios (not that I think 4K video from a smartphone has much use).

sensor not bad, driver sometimes is...
Exmor IMX220 Shoot Out – Meizu MX4 Pro vs Sony Xperia Z3
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}

Wajk said:
sensor not bad, driver sometimes is...
Exmor IMX220 Shoot Out – Meizu MX4 Pro vs Sony Xperia Z3
indeed sony's pic are washed out but the looking at the "lay's" and "muji" comparision, meizu's pics are blurred.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

We all know auto mode sucks isn't that right? Well Sony hasn't designed this phone for you, i have taken some absolutely stunning photos that my friends think were taken with a proper camera. The truth is that I'm a photographer that tries to push the hardware and software to the limit and if your having a good day you can produce stunning works of art. Sure there's a bit of noise but you can't expect fullframe image quality on this sensor. Taking a backwards step from my Nex7 to the Z3 compact was a great learning experience. If you're a photographer that likes to push the limits of a camera this one is for you, if your the average joe your wasting your time. Think about it, when you buy a camera what is the point of using auto mode when it limits the amount of control you have over a photo. Its like driving an automatic transmission car at a drag race.

As a photographer, you of all people should understand that a camera phone is not likely to be used when taking serious photos. This is designed to be a point and shoot replacement for selfies, pictures of food, group photos of friends in a restaurant, etc... This phone's camera isn't a complete failure by any means, but it simply doesn't perform as well as phones from 2-3 years ago under the most basic condition (indoors). I'm just finding it difficult to explain why my $500 flagship phone takes overexposed, blurry photos when my old phones (none of which were even flagship models) did not.

Starlith said:
We all know auto mode sucks isn't that right? Well Sony hasn't designed this phone for you, i have taken some absolutely stunning photos that my friends think were taken with a proper camera. The truth is that I'm a photographer that tries to push the hardware and software to the limit and if your having a good day you can produce stunning works of art. Sure there's a bit of noise but you can't expect fullframe image quality on this sensor. Taking a backwards step from my Nex7 to the Z3 compact was a great learning experience. If you're a photographer that likes to push the limits of a camera this one is for you, if your the average joe your wasting your time. Think about it, when you buy a camera what is the point of using auto mode when it limits the amount of control you have over a photo. Its like driving an automatic transmission car at a drag race.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am also a photographer (enthusiastic amateur and no expert for sure) who has worked for a software company in the digital imaging industry for 7 years. I get to sample a lot of cameras; including pre-production test mules, some of which never make it due to unrecoverable issues. I have tried the Z3C in every conceivable mode and it's still a disappointment in low light and unpredictable when it's good light. A brief summary of the biggest issues I've seen would include:
1) Poor light performance - It's not even low light, the performance is poor in moderate lighting conditions (20MP is too much for such a small sensor and lens)
2) Unpredictable auto focus - It misses what should be an easy AF fix more often than it should do
3) Too much NR - TBH this is a personal criticism of almost every camera currently made, but the NR on the Z3C is a bit nasty
4) Even the best shots seem to lack "definition"
I'm not saying that the camera is a complete dead-loss, but for a flagship smartphone it's not as good as I would expect. I don't think that I've taken a single picture with it where I've got home, uploaded it to my PC and thought it was really good. I've checked back through my SGS3 pictures and at a glance the best images look like they've come from a "proper" camera, I can't say that for many of the Z3C images. I'd really like to be able to get RAW images out of the camera to see what is possible with decent post processing, but it doesn't seem like that is going to happen any time soon.
If you could give some hints about how to get the most out of the camera, then I for one would very much appreciate it.

mad-marco said:
I am also a photographer (enthusiastic amateur and no expert for sure) who has worked for a software company in the digital imaging industry for 7 years. I get to sample a lot of cameras; including pre-production test mules, some of which never make it due to unrecoverable issues. I have tried the Z3C in every conceivable mode and it's still a disappointment in low light and unpredictable when it's good light. A brief summary of the biggest issues I've seen would include:
1) Poor light performance - It's not even low light, the performance is poor in moderate lighting conditions (20MP is too much for such a small sensor and lens)
2) Unpredictable auto focus - It misses what should be an easy AF fix more often than it should do
3) Too much NR - TBH this is a personal criticism of almost every camera currently made, but the NR on the Z3C is a bit nasty
4) Even the best shots seem to lack "definition"
I'm not saying that the camera is a complete dead-loss, but for a flagship smartphone it's not as good as I would expect. I don't think that I've taken a single picture with it where I've got home, uploaded it to my PC and thought it was really good. I've checked back through my SGS3 pictures and at a glance the best images look like they've come from a "proper" camera, I can't say that for many of the Z3C images. I'd really like to be able to get RAW images out of the camera to see what is possible with decent post processing, but it doesn't seem like that is going to happen any time soon.
If you could give some hints about how to get the most out of the camera, then I for one would very much appreciate it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with you, it does have its limits and they are really weird limits. For example when in manual mode anything that is set to auto including white balance and focus is either hit or miss, there is no touch metering, i have taken some stunners but they required me to work hard for it such as adjusting wb, iso, focus mode. Even the background defocus app which produced amazing photos btw i had to work really hard for. All that work on a phone is exhausting. Too many apps complicate the camera app and the post processing algorithm is inconsistent. Im interested what the results would be with a lens similar to the iPhone 6. The best thing about the camera is the wide angle lens but no one really cares for that.

Starlith said:
I agree with you, it does have its limits and they are really weird limits. For example when in manual mode anything that is set to auto including white balance and focus is either hit or miss, there is no touch metering, i have taken some stunners but they required me to work hard for it such as adjusting wb, iso, focus mode. Even the background defocus app which produced amazing photos btw i had to work really hard for. All that work on a phone is exhausting. Too many apps complicate the camera app and the post processing algorithm is inconsistent. Im interested what the results would be with a lens similar to the iPhone 6. The best thing about the camera is the wide angle lens but no one really cares for that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I personally don't even like the wide angle lens. It just forces me to stand that much closer to my subject to properly frame the shot. Then, if using flash, you blind them because you're standing 1 foot in front of their face. Anyway, I thought a sony branded lens/sensor was being used on most high end phones these days... even the iPhone? We just got stuck with poor image processing.

PuffDaddy_d said:
I personally don't even like the wide angle lens. It just forces me to stand that much closer to my subject to properly frame the shot. Then, if using flash, you blind them because you're standing 1 foot in front of their face. Anyway, I thought a sony branded lens/sensor was being used on most high end phones these days... even the iPhone? We just got stuck with poor image processing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When you buy a phone you don't expect it to take pictures like an SLR Camera would, that being said though I still think 20 mp is more than enough for taking snapshots. If you complain about the camera quality then you shouldn't have bought a phone in the first place and buy a DSLR instead.

and if you came from a Nokia flagship this difference is even bigger ....

Revontheus said:
When you buy a phone you don't expect it to take pictures like an SLR Camera would, that being said though I still think 20 mp is more than enough for taking snapshots. If you complain about the camera quality then you shouldn't have bought a phone in the first place and buy a DSLR instead.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've already got several DSLR's thanks very much. I don't think that anyone is expecting DSLR like quality, in fact you seem to be the only person who has brought this up.
I think that what people would like is the the camera on Sony's flagship smartphones to be comparable with other smartphones, especially the ones that have the same sensor hardware!!! It's a disappointment that the 2/3 year old SGS3 produces superior photos than the current Sony flagships, the current Samsung 16MP cameras are vastly superior.

Revontheus said:
When you buy a phone you don't expect it to take pictures like an SLR Camera would, that being said though I still think 20 mp is more than enough for taking snapshots. If you complain about the camera quality then you shouldn't have bought a phone in the first place and buy a DSLR instead.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You have completely missed the point of this thread. It has nothing to do with expecting DSLR quality from a camera phone. We just don't want pictures to look like they were taken from a flip phone from 2006 - which is what this camera looks like when taking photos indoors. A flagship phone needs a flagship camera, and Sony's image processing has left us without, while all other major manufacturers are using some form of Sony image sensor and getting much better results.
But as my original post indicates, the best photos I've been able to get from this camera are with the stock camera app. All others seem to fall short when viewed on a larger screen.

ray_J13 said:
Wajk said:
sensor not bad, driver sometimes is...
Exmor IMX220 Shoot Out – Meizu MX4 Pro vs Sony Xperia Z3
indeed sony's pic are washed out but the looking at the "lay's" and "muji" comparision, meizu's pics are blurred.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Seems to me the camera glass on her Z3C was a bit smudged... That would explain the haze.
And the small details on the Z3C look much better and cleaner at 100% zoom than on the Meizu, even if the Z3C was a bit out of focus.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

I'm so disappointed in this camera. I took my Z3C and my old HTC Droid Incredible 2 to a concert last night. Inc2's pics were much crisper and cleaner. The videos were better as well (at 720p), though the sound on the Z3C's vids were better. Inc2 is what, 4 years old?
Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

Crewville96 said:
I'm so disappointed in this camera. I took my Z3C and my old HTC Droid Incredible 2 to a concert last night. Inc2's pics were much crisper and cleaner. The videos were better as well (at 720p), though the sound on the Z3C's vids were better. Inc2 is what, 4 years old?
Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, this is our point exactly! The Z3C camera has far more advanced technology in it, yet the results are sub par to midrange and outdated phones. Care to share any of your pics for reference?
Sent from my Xperia Z3 Compact

PuffDaddy_d said:
Yes, this is our point exactly! The Z3C camera has far more advanced technology in it, yet the results are sub par to midrange and outdated phones. Care to share any of your pics for reference?
Sent from my Xperia Z3 Compact
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can upload the vids and couple pics. None of the pics are really the same for comparison since i was in the crowd at the concert though. But you can get a general idea.

PuffDaddy_d said:
Yes, this is our point exactly! The Z3C camera has far more advanced technology in it, yet the results are sub par to midrange and outdated phones. Care to share any of your pics for reference?
Sent from my Xperia Z3 Compact
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Here's my vids. One is from my old Droid Incredible 2 (2011, running GB) the other is from my Z3C (2014, running LP). I'll let you guys judge which vid is better.

That concert looks like it was a lot of fun! I watched both videos on full screen and i personally think the top video looks better - less grainy and handled the bright lighting much better.

PuffDaddy_d said:
That concert looks like it was a lot of fun! I watched both videos on full screen and i personally think the top video looks better - less grainy and handled the bright lighting much better.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep, just cleaner and sharper overall. Thats the Droid Incredible 2 video (720 only as well, Z3C is at 1080 lol).

Related

[HTC One vs Z1] Camera comparison test the shoutout

Z1 vs HTC one camera test / comparison - Vote please.
@ Mods please move this thread in general if it doesn't belong here , ty !
ok so my cousins came at my place with 2 Z1's , we've taken them to test them out , it was cloudy day , as for flash light photos / indoor no flash photos z1 trully sux big time and they didn't want to let me have those photos , so all i have is daylight photos and 1 flash light and 1 indoor , don't ask how i got those 2 lol it was PAIN.
While taking pics z1 really has major issues with superior auto / white balance , while with manual it's slightly better but still not good enough imo due timing , they've took both pics with me average 3/4 pics each and average 2-3 mins took them for each pic with various settings at the end choosing the best outta 7/8 they took while i was snapping either 1 normal or some HDR pics that's about it. They've also deleted so many daylight photos where they were worse then me ... so not really an *FAIR* comparison due them being big time Sony fanboys and they're very stubborn and not accepting their camera isn't the best in the world lol.
Keep in mind i have no skills with camera tho my cousins know how camera works so they're more experienced then i am.
Anyway i'll let you judge the photos and i'll open a vote poll so vote for which you think it won overall.
Xperia Z1
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1 - Flash macro
HTC One - Flash macro
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1 - indoor no flash.
HTC One - indoor no flash.
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One

great
except for the cloud one Which z1 has more natural
i cant believe htc beats z1 camera lol
thats epic hahaha
btw some of the colors are saturated for z1
for me htc one picture are pretty awesome
bith cameras are like same 4mp vs 21 lol

@Khixar27
I'm still uploading Photos i got 50 more to go please wait before i finish
Here some more photos that couldn't fit in the 1st post.
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One
Xperia Z1
HTC One

Koje selo i država brate? ?
Htc One the One ?

Slovakia?
But sticking to topic, Z1 doesn't looks to good with 21mpx sensor. I would say that One has slight edge here

adam_pl said:
Slovakia?
But sticking to topic, Z1 doesn't looks to good with 21mpx sensor. I would say that One has slight edge here
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its Serbia actually
Sent from my HTC One using XDA Premium 4 mobile app

I like the saturation in the Z1, but the HTC definitely capture more detail in low light with less noise. My conclusion is to use the HTC with a +.5 step in saturation.

In my opinin, and yes, I am a Z1 owner... seeing as you were using the Z1 in manual mode, you either had the ISO too low (50??) or you didn't adjust the EV accordingly as the Z1 pictures just look too dark really?
When in manual mode, you really need to take advantage of the settings

raysurrx7 said:
I like the saturation in the Z1, but the HTC definitely capture more detail in low light with less noise. My conclusion is to use the HTC with a +.5 step in saturation.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We've took photos @ around 10/11am lol , the saturation you like on z1 is cuz they had to use cloudy / daylight white balance due impossibility to come close to my pics , here few examples for you just so you see what I mean , anyway it wouldn't look realistic since there were no sun at all pretty much whole time. Only 2 pics had sun and that's it.
1st pic normal 2nd with daylight effect same as they used the whole time
I assume this is what you wanted ?
Keep in mind it was cloudy no sun at all , that why pics are less saturated on my phone but as you can see in the examples I could've done that but wouldn't represent realistic colors
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2

I guess there is something to that mega pixel after all. Both cameras took good pictures and mostly comes down to settings. At least the Xperia don't suffer from the purple haze that many of us one owners has.
Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk

Dark Jedi said:
I guess there is something to that mega pixel after all. Both cameras took good pictures and mostly comes down to settings. At least the Xperia don't suffer from the purple haze that many of us one owners has.
Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It actually has indoor some yellow / blue tint , you can see on the indoor pic , btw I don't have that sensor issue that many HTC one owners do.
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2

great comparsion
for me htc one looks better , btw the photos is great
does your htc one camera sometimes show in screen regular noise while capturing photos? i want to know if this is a regular thing or only my unit does this .. another question , does your phone suffer from blue/red noise in dark or no ? i hope no:good:

wezzel98765 said:
In my opinin, and yes, I am a Z1 owner... seeing as you were using the Z1 in manual mode, you either had the ISO too low (50??) or you didn't adjust the EV accordingly as the Z1 pictures just look too dark really?
When in manual mode, you really need to take advantage of the settings
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hello there , I didn't even use z1 , I've wrote in OP that I was using my one and my 2 cousins were using 2 z1's taking each 3/4 pics each in total of 7/8 and later picking the best pic outta 7/8.
They look dark because HTC really has outstanding HDR while z1 really is no match with hdr.
From my observation with those difficult scenes z1 was useless , you could make pic but you would have to chose either sky/ clouds or ground , there's no option to take both like with HTC's hdr.
oh and believe my cousins were only using manual since superior auto was completely useless.
One Twelve confirmed this by checking Exifs.
One Twelve said:
Exifs are there for all the pics
The Z1 user set white balance appropriately and actually used -EV compensation for a number of shots, might have over done it in some places. it's a difficult call. Auto isn't mature yet on the Z1, whereas the HTC one has been out for ages and from what i could tell the HTC camera took all the shots in auto. No tweaks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah you're right. Like I said all I was using was auto or hdr , nothing else.
One Twelve said:
The close up on the tree bark actually has the Z1 produce a blurred shot, dunno how that happened. Shutter was fast enough so no chance of camera shake.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I guess the cousin moved lol.
One Twelve said:
What i'd like to understand better is this brightness value i see in the HTC exifs, it seems to change for each shot and wondered if any of the htc guys can tell me more about it. First thing you see is the HTC shots are all brighter, and in some cases more than necessary.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The shots are brighter cuz of hdr , with z1 if you point at the sky for example bottom gets dark and it's clearly impossible for z1 to balance that due to poor hdr capabilities where's the htc one handles this easily.
My guess about brightness change is probably meetering and our auto / hdr can use higher values then what we can in manual.
One Twelve said:
Questions to the OP
- how long have the Z1 owners had their phone and how long have you had yours.
- indicate which photo pairs are HDR (if any) ?
- Can you clarify whether the Z1 took the shots in 20MP or 8MP.
- Which program did you use to resize down to 1.4MP ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
- I've had HTC one since June , my cousins have their Z1's since it came out ( as addition they've been with Sony since SE K300I , so trust me they know what they're doing lol )
- All photos that have sky / clouds +ground = hdr , the rest were normal.
One Twelve said:
- i don't understand what happened with the indoor shots. Saying they were really bad does not make sense to me. Without seeing the shots there is no way to comment.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
- trust me it was embarrassing shots which is why they didn't let me have them , I managed to get only 1 flash photo and only 1 indoor no flash photo , I was looking forward to upload those but unluckily they didn't let me have them.
- Dunno which mp they used all I know is they used manual settings.
- I didn't use any program to resize photos , all I did is upload the photos from pc to tinypic site and post them here.
One Twelve said:
- How about a low light shoot-out. I want to see shutter speeds of 0.3s on your htc and we'll see how that compares with the 0.8s on the Z1. Take care to stabilise the cameras so as not to have blur. If your cousins know what they're doing this should not be a problem for them
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Like I said there's no low light shots Thx to them , tho in almost pitch black no flash z1 was better , everywhere else worse. Even video recording low light due fact I can record video at same brightness as the shots you saw lol. ( hdr recording ) also in pitch black z1 can't come close since my flash is about 2x more powerful.
One Twelve said:
Actually this is fair, you should have done the same as this way it really is best that the cameras can do. These are pre-planned shots, you can take as much time as you want. There is no time deadline or any other constraints. When people put up their pics many times they put up the best of many. So this is normal.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't have the nerves for that I just want point and shoot not wasting time to set all the settings , the moment will pass by the time settings are set.
One Twelve said:
Auto isn't mature on the Z1, it will take time. This means the skill of the Z1 owner needs to be better. The difference with ISO for instance can be signficant and not slight as you put it, auto can bump ISO up very high resulting in a noisy shot whereas you can get pretty good results if you set it manually. Your cousins did this already. Most reviewers do not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah I've noticed that superior auto is utter **** lol.
One Twelve said:
This should not come as a surprise to an HTC owner, you have plenty of tweaks you can use as well. However, things like contrast, sharpness, saturation etc would not be fair as they're not present on the Z1 and can be done in post with better software. i note you did not use any of these 3 in any photos
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah I'm just one of those point and shot , sometime switch to hdr and that's about it. Tho I gotta say I play with settings when I'm bored but when taking pics pretty much point and shoot.
Nightf0x_007 said:
great comparsion
for me htc one looks better , btw the photos is great
does your htc one camera sometimes show in screen regular noise while capturing photos? i want to know if this is a regular thing or only my unit does this .. another question , does your phone suffer from blue/red noise in dark or no ? i hope no:good:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I guess I get sometimes with flash noise untill it focuses after that all normal , no tints here pretty much perfect unit.
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2

Great post. It is nice to see almost a year in and our camera is still up there with its so called Ultra-pixels which is just a fancy word for mega-pixel. I never doubted this phones camera always served me well and even made a 2 hour long home movie to send back home.. Great phone but i think if sony put time and effort into their software they can get the camera up and running in brilliant quality too..

Shan89 said:
They look dark because HTC really has outstanding HDR while z1 really is no match with hdr.
From my observation with those difficult scenes z1 was useless , you could make pic but you would have to chose either sky/ clouds or ground , there's no option to take both like with HTC's hdr.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HDR takes multiple exposures and combines them. You have no control over this process. Given that auto isn't mature with Z1, it follows that neither will HDR be mature on Z1.
If you want good quality photos, then try not to use HDR. why ? jpg is lossy. jpg + jpg + jpg = even more lossy. Also takes longer as you have to wait for 'processing images' before taking next shot.
About sky/ground, what you do is use spot metering. If you spot on the clouds, the ground becomes dark, on the ground you blow out the sky, you have to spot somewhere in the middle. Now if the subjects are in the same focal plane then you can get away with this otherwise HDR is the only option as focus will not be at infinity. HDR is a compromise in this particular case to get you better exposed shot.
Its not required for every shot, only where there is big difference in lighting between foreground and background and subjects are in many planes that you want to keep more or less in focus. Personally, unless its landscape type photo this can be distracting, better to keep the subject in sharp focus and forget if the rest is blurred, it will make for a better shot.
In camera HDR is a recent 'innovation'. If you want the best HDR, then take 5 exposures from -2 to +2 with camera on a tripod, use a HDR speicialised program to combine them on a PC and then see the results compared to the 'poor man's HDR' the camera provides.
Shan89 said:
Yeah you're right. Like I said all I was using was auto or hdr , nothing else.
The shots are brighter cuz of hdr , with z1 if you point at the sky for example bottom gets dark and it's clearly impossible for z1 to balance that due to poor hdr capabilities where's the htc one handles this easily.
My guess about brightness change is probably meetering and our auto / hdr can use higher values then what we can in manual.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then i would look only at the pics where HDR was not used in this comparison. HTC one has had many months to improve HDR, it did not come perfect out of the box. Same with Z1.
Shan89 said:
- I've had HTC one since June , my cousins have their Z1's since it came out ( as addition they've been with Sony since SE K300I , so trust me they know what they're doing lol )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Z1 has been out now just under two months, takes time to get to know its quirks. Each phone camera is different. Since they set WB & EV i can tell they are not complete n00bs. But more hands on time is always better than less. Photographer is more important than camera.
Shan89 said:
- Dunno which mp they used all I know is they used manual settings.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you have the originals, then look at the resolution. the 20MP will be (5248 x 3936) and the 8MP will be (3840 x 2160) or (3,264 x 2,448) . File sizes will also be bigger. I think they have used 20MP for all, can you confirm ?
This matters because currently you will get better shots with Z1 in 8MP 4:3 than with 20MP. Noise control is much better due to oversampling. Also 8MP means you can use different SCN modes which is not possible with 20MP. For low light shots or indoors this will make a difference.
For now we can say 20MP means 2x zoom is better than lower resolution sensors. Photos at 20MP are not necessarily better than 8MP. I wish these cameras put out RAW because then we will really see what the camera can do instead of what the compression program is doing to create those jpgs
When people make comments about camera they are primarily commenting about
1) auto and how well it works
2) image compression algorithm. good compression + good quality means more time + more CPU, a phone is not the best place to do this. So you can take the next shot quick, compromises are made here which affect image quality.
3) stock camera app. 3rd party apps in playstore may do a better job in certain situations.
So we still do not get to see what the camera can do without these other factors interfering in the process with ANY phone camera.
Shan89 said:
- I didn't use any program to resize photos , all I did is upload the photos from pc to tinypic site and post them here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It was a good choice for image host because inspite of resizing it still preserved the exif data. Many others strip it out. I was surprised to see them. So you passed the minimum test here
Better still would be to resize them yourself with a good quality program and then upload. How well these image sites do resize is not transparent. They have to handle lots of load.
Shan89 said:
- trust me it was embarrassing shots which is why they didn't let me have them , I managed to get only 1 flash photo and only 1 indoor no flash photo , I was looking forward to upload those but unluckily they didn't let me have them.
Like I said there's no low light shots Thx to them , tho in almost pitch black no flash z1 was better , everywhere else worse. Even video recording low light due fact I can record video at same brightness as the shots you saw lol. ( hdr recording ) also in pitch black z1 can't come close since my flash is about 2x more powerful.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm trying to figure what you mean here. The only clue is flash is 2x more powerful. So in cases where a more powerful flash helps the Z1 could not compete but there are cases where your flash will be over powering and the Z1 will be just right. This isn't a problem because you can always diffuse the light by putting some paper on the flash. Where the more powerful flash has an edge is in freezing motion if subject is moving with low light, so long as it happens less than 6 feet away. But then flash makes for lousy photos since its direct at the subject and not reflected. Big problem with phone cameras currently. They always locate the flash below the lens instead of above it. I don't why this is. There is no off camera flash option available as yet. eg. you cannot bounce the flash of the ceiling and get better photos.
But why to use the flash in the first place, when both cameras can do good low light photos. None of the subjects in the photos were moving so there should not be a problem here.
We don't know what your cousins were thinking. Embarrassing does not say much, why was it embarrassing and what could be done to make it better. There are many indoors shots with Z1 in the photo thread, nothing embarrassing there.
Shan89 said:
I don't have the nerves for that I just want point and shoot not wasting time to set all the settings , the moment will pass by the time settings are set.
Yeah I'm just one of those point and shot , sometime switch to hdr and that's about it. Tho I gotta say I play with settings when I'm bored but when taking pics pretty much point and shoot.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This applies for impromptu shots. How often does this happen for you ? Not a single one of your sample shots comes in this category. My feeling is these impromptu shots are maybe 5% of the time. These are the hardest to get, subject may be moving and you will not get a good shot, you will get an ok to bad shot.
The rest of the time you can plan, take many shots, play with angles for better composition etc. But the thing about camera in your pocket is at least you have a camera in the first place and if the time is there you will get the shot whereas before you had nothing.
People say you are not supposed to get good photos because this is only a phone camera. But with more capable cameras they take lots of effort to get a good photo because its a good camera. Makes no sense. To get a good shot with phone camera you have to work harder because there are more limitations. This means more possibilities as well.
Shan89 said:
Yeah I've noticed that superior auto is utter **** lol.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And what about 3 months from now ? will your statement still be valid.
if you follow the evolution of the Z, it took anywhere from 3-5 months after launch to get it right. So there is no reason it will change with Z1, maybe it might come sooner. This unfortunately is a sony thing. others will put out cameras that are mature but have bugs elsewhere. Nobody puts out a perfect phone at launch. Look hard enough and you will see the bugs, what matters is whether the vendor is prepared to fix them or not. How good is their past record in doing this.
But the reviewers always get the latest & greatest and then move on, they do not bother to review after 3 months. People also want latest & greatest and then find its not mature and think its bad. But after 3 months they change their mind. Just see the photo threads for any flagship here and you see the same comments. My <old phone> takes better photos than this <new phone>. very predictable :laugh:
if you look at HTC photo thread, around march-may, reviewers were complaining that htc is oversharpening images because they can see halos around the edges. What is the solution ? set sharpness to -2 or -1 gives a softer image and no halos. So htc got bashed quite a bit too. In fact i think htc is most bashed camera out there because everybody thinks 4MP is not enough. But what can they use to display 4MP ? there are no 4k displays out there or they are very expensive. Full HD is only 2MP. you can still print 10x14 inch prints with 4MP. But no... 4MP on HTC is not enough or bad. pfft.
Shan89 said:
I guess I get sometimes with flash noise untill it focuses after that all normal , no tints here pretty much perfect unit.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is one thing that still i'm not able to understand. 300 pg thread on this omg!. There are theories around but nothing conclusive as yet. Some people are saying the heat does it over time. With Z1 if it gets too hot you will not be able to use the camera. So too much heating over a long time is supposed to cause this problem with tinting. Its such a pity to replace the phone after only 6 months :crying:
This tinting is the problem as i see it with htc one. Not 4MP.

Too many peoples and companies think megapixels means quality, while using very poor sensors. They keep trying to push this rumor/agenda
A better sensor>>>>>megapixel count

crixley said:
Too many peoples and companies think megapixels means quality, while using very poor sensors. They keep trying to push this rumor/agenda
A better sensor>>>>>megapixel count
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly +1
@One Twelve
I'm sorry I can't bother answering to all questions etc , simply just take a look at photos and you got answer.
As for hdr stuff you wrote HTC one takes less then 0.5 Sec to make hdr photo and ready for next , I'm sure it takes over 20 sec to set z1 to make similar photo which is still no match.
As for fllash HTC one has smart flash = we.have 5 modes = it can fire up very low light or super strong light , this is why z1 will never match htc one in flash light photos , especially if photos are 1/2+ meters away , z1 is useless in this distance.
As for ceiling HTC one gets better flash photos when there are walls then when there aren't.
I can take photo outdoor pitch black about 5/7 meters away , indoor I can go up to 10 , if I increase exposure and lower contrast I can go even further.
HTC one also in long distance low light photos can take hdr + flash light = it gathers light from flash as well and makes overall picture more light.
With 4:3 HTC one also makes better photos then in 16:9 also sharper.
By the time z1 gets / if it gets fixed we will have updates as well + one 2 will be out by that time and more fair comparison would be one 2 due being newer 4/5 month's instead comparison vs HTC one which is 7 months older
As for Xperia Z I've took test with my cousins as well since they had XZ before z1 , I've literally raped Xz , I'll ask them to send me that test and upload it as well.
As for movement + picturing z1 will never match HTC ZOE.
here few samples for you so you see why :sly:
Btw all this pics were quiet tricky movement and impossible with burst shot or regular , but ZOE handles movement quiet easy.
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2

If I am to judge, I'd say for the most part, the z1 does seem more pleasing. You seem to be abusing the hdr alot on the Htc one. The colors are washed out as hell. I can tell because I use the htc one as well.
I'll say this, neither the z1 nor the HTC One's hdr are good. Only the HTC One has a minor advantage.
If you are going to use HDR, set your ISO to 100, AF/AE lock on a bright light source AND THEN switch to HDR. This way your HDR will look much better than just using HDR right off the bat.
The first pic, I used HDR right off the bat. Looks washed out, basically it looks terrible
The second pic, I set ISO100, AE/AF lock on my ceiling light, switched to HDR. Much better colors.

Shan89 said:
I'm sorry I can't bother answering to all questions etc , simply just take a look at photos and you got answer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Too bad, i guess it will fall upon somebody else to challenge otherwise my points stand.
Z1 isn't ready for a HDR shootout. It is ready for non-hdr manual shootout. When i have time i will select the non-hdr shots in your group and we will see the differences.
Shan89 said:
As for fllash HTC one has smart flash = we.have 5 modes = it can fire up very low light or super strong light , this is why z1 will never match htc one in flash light photos , especially if photos are 1/2+ meters away , z1 is useless in this distance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This bit is interesting. i don't think any other android camera can vary the intensity of flash light based upon what the camera sees. This is an advantage with indoor shots. Does not mean you cannot get acceptable ones in Z1 or any other that does not have this ability, its just harder. And once you know what to do its no longer harder.
So I'm not going with ease of use, i'm interested in whether its possible to take the shot or not. This is a better indication of limitations.
Shan89 said:
HTC one also in long distance low light photos can take hdr + flash light = it gathers light from flash as well and makes overall picture more light.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ok
Shan89 said:
I can take photo outdoor pitch black about 5/7 meters away , indoor I can go up to 10 , if I increase exposure and lower contrast I can go even further.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Useful but difficult to get right. People look more cold than warm. This is why the push to improve low light handling so there is little need to use flash in the first place. Flash photography on a mobile phone is difficult.
Shan89 said:
With 4:3 HTC one also makes better photos then in 16:9 also sharper.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Surprising as i thought htc one has a native 16:9 sensor. Everybody else uses 4:3. So smaller pics come out better with 4:3 than 16:9.
So i'd have thought 16:9 is best aspect ratio for htc one.
Shan89 said:
By the time z1 gets / if it gets fixed we will have updates as well + one 2 will be out by that time and more fair comparison would be one 2 due being newer 4/5 month's instead comparison vs HTC one which is 7 months older
As for Xperia Z I've took test with my cousins as well since they had XZ before z1 , I've literally raped Xz , I'll ask them to send me that test and upload it as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, do that lets see the difference. Ensure the exifs are visible. After looking at the photo thread for Z, i changed my mind about what most people think about the Z. I would like to understand in which way the htc one 'rapes' the Z
I note that htc one does not indicate which firmware number is being used. So can you mention which one was used to take your photos.
Shan89 said:
As for movement + picturing z1 will never match HTC ZOE.
here few samples for you so you see why :sly:
Btw all this pics were quiet tricky movement and impossible with burst shot or regular , but ZOE handles movement quiet easy.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't follow, with enough light you have a fast shutter speed so why is it hard to get those shots ?
What does ZOE do here that you cannot do without it.

There is no denying it, Xperia Cameras suck :(

Let me just first put it out there that I'm a loyal Sony guy. I've owned the Xperia TL, Xperia ZL, Xperia Z1 and now the Xperia Z3C.
With that said, I knew the Sony cameras took subpar pics, whether in full auto or manual mode, they just look bad. Add low light or indoor to the mix, and you've got what looks like a pic from a 2005 Nokia phone. Sorry, I know we all love our Xperias, but Sony should be ashamed of themselves for doing this, considering that they make awesome DSLRs and point and shoots.
So why am I being a rabble rouser all of a sudden? Well, I just got a Note 4 as my work phone and needless to say, I was blown away by the camera results. The differences are night and day between the two. Sadly, I'm supposed to be carrying my work phone just during work days, but I found myself leaving my Z3C at home and going out with the Note 4 this weekend, and you should see the pics I took.
I don't know if the lens is good but the software is bad on the Sony, but if there is any hope that Lollipop will make it better with RAW, I sure hope Sony takes advantage of it.

I agree. The camera of the Lumia 925 that I had, was much better than the camera's compact Z3.
To be honest, this camera does not please me one bit, outside the fact that it does not have optical image stabilizer.

Check the "post pictures that you have taken with your z3c" or something thread. Also, photos will naturally look better on amoled. Transfer your z3c pictures to Note 4 and then look at them again. Might seem better. I find both cameras great by the way
Sent from my D5833 using XDA Free mobile app

I wouldn't say suck. I'd just say average.
If you buy this phone for the camera, you're doing it from the wrong direction.
It'd be like buying this phone for the 'best speakers on the market', when HTC One's are those.
The Z3C phone is the best for compact and power; it's a pocket rocket and that's what it specializes at first and foremost, second being its water proof-dust proof without being some rugged phone.
So why am I being a rabble rouser all of a sudden? Well, I just got a Note 4 as my work phone and needless to say, I was blown away by the camera results. The differences are night and day between the two. Sadly, I'm supposed to be carrying my work phone just during work days, but I found myself leaving my Z3C at home and going out with the Note 4 this weekend, and you should see the pics I took.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you're taking around a Note 4, then you're clearly weren't in for the Z3C's compact and pocket rocket in the first place, and you're now choosing the best camera in stead.

Please just tell me that you're comparing pictures on a PC.

Moist said:
Please just tell me that you're comparing pictures on a PC.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
EXACTLY.
Sent from my D5833 using XDA Free mobile app

You are comparing a quad HD display to a 720p. You're not comparing the camera performance. Just the display. I'd do the comparison again on a PC

I still don't understand what is wrong with Sony's compact camera ... my compact camera is taking great pictures :laugh:

No, I've been comparing the photos on my thunderbolt display, so no bias toward the Note 4's screen in any way.
And no, I'm not all sold on the Note 4, I still can't live without the compactness of my Z3C.
I will take identical photos from both phones today and post here.

Z3c camera doesn't suck, it's "just" above average.
The only other phone with superior camera that rivals Z3C's performance, size and specs is the iPhone 5s to be honest.
Samsung phones have the best cameras overall, but their devices aren't one-hand friendly.

If you want top notch pictures then you need to buy a decent camera.. For a mobile phone camera it does its job, I have no issues with it.
Sent from my D5803 using XDA Premium HD app

pricey2009 said:
If you want top notch pictures then you need to buy a decent camera.. For a mobile phone camera it does its job, I have no issues with it.
Sent from my D5803 using XDA Premium HD app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Try Lumia920. I still prefer it.

Compare any Nokia you want against an alpha 6000 (or any dslr or mirrorless camera).
Once you go big lenses and big sensors, you never go back.

ro_explorer said:
I still don't understand what is wrong with Sony's compact camera ... my compact camera is taking great pictures :laugh:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm curious what's settings are you using?(mode, iso, etc)
Any tip to improve my photos?

XQC said:
Z3c camera doesn't suck, it's "just" above average.
The only other phone with superior camera that rivals Z3C's performance, size and specs is the iPhone 5s to be honest.
Samsung phones have the best cameras overall, but their devices aren't one-hand friendly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Pretty much this.
I see nothing but good things about Samsung's phones, but when they get smaller and remove those physical buttons, I'll consider grabbing one... which may be never since it's their signature.

cerberustri said:
I'm curious what's settings are you using?(mode, iso, etc)
Any tip to improve my photos?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is no universal recipe for taking good photos. All parameters are heavily dependant on the camera specs.
In my case, I'm taking usable photos even at ISO6400 and, with a size reduction afterwards, I can even go higher (12800).
The aperture is dependant on the lens you are using. A too large aperture will lead to blurry edges and soft images on cheap lenses. A too closed one will generate light fringing leading to artefacts. Then there is the focal length .... again, the lenses are behaving totally different.
It's all coming down to trial and error and understanding the limitations of your equipment.
And coming back on-topic, I would love to have full manual controls over the Z3C's camera (including long exposure and RAW data). That will allow for truly great photos with this tiny camera.

The most terrible thing I am concerned about is "soft skin" effect that seems to be always turned on.
See the discussion here: https://talk.sonymobile.com/t5/Xperia-Z3-Compact/Soft-Skin-effect/td-p/838361/highlight/false/page/4

ro_explorer said:
There is no universal recipe for taking good photos. All parameters are heavily dependant on the camera specs.
In my case, I'm taking usable photos even at ISO6400 and, with a size reduction afterwards, I can even go higher (12800).
The aperture is dependant on the lens you are using. A too large aperture will lead to blurry edges and soft images on cheap lenses. A too closed one will generate light fringing leading to artefacts. Then there is the focal length .... again, the lenses are behaving totally different.
It's all coming down to trial and error and understanding the limitations of your equipment.
And coming back on-topic, I would love to have full manual controls over the Z3C's camera (including long exposure and RAW data). That will allow for truly great photos with this tiny camera.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think, he thought you took the picture of the camera, with your Z3C. And so, was asking what settings you had on your phone to make the picture of the camera look so good compared to his.

ogyct said:
The most terrible thing I am concerned about is "soft skin" effect that seems to be always turned on.
See the discussion here: https://talk.sonymobile.com/t5/Xperia-Z3-Compact/Soft-Skin-effect/td-p/838361/highlight/false/page/4
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah. It's still not fixed in lollipop update.
I just don't understand why they don't fix this bug. It's a simple thing to fix i think, and because of that, front camera isn't useable at all!!

Calvat said:
I think, he thought you took the picture of the camera, with your Z3C. And so, was asking what settings you had on your phone to make the picture of the camera look so good compared to his.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually I took that picture with the z3c just to show what I'm actually using to take photos . The phones camera was on auto but, the camera itself is only part of the picture. There is also framing and there is also light.
BTW, these are a bunch of samples captured today, on manual mode, with z3c running lollipop (for who is interested). In my opinion the quality of the camera is pretty low but still, usable in case of emergency.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B08eVSlv8mIUNnBTcTc5YmlHcVk/view?usp=sharing
// sent from my phone //

HTC One M9 Camera discussion (not for photo samples)

Albert Poon said:
May I ask you guys with M9 to take pics using manual mode? A tripod, phone holder, low ISO, long explosure to take some night views?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This was missing in the flickr album. Long exposure 1/4, 1/2 or 1s shots. And please use flickr so we can see exifs easily. board attachments and imgur strip exifs out. I notice the phonearena samples have no exifs in them at all.
Though i have to say i like this one. Just enough silhouette to set the mood.
ISO 80 and 1/40 WHAT!!! for late afternoon Seattle in winter. I can't tell if its HDR or not.
---------- Post added at 09:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:43 PM ----------
xxquicksh0txx said:
https://plus.google.com/10388377056...6126393456474303042&oid=103883770561517758752 Link to the beetle picture on his Google+ with a resolution of 1108 x 625. Definitely cropped/compressed
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Taken with VSCO cam, ISO 50, 1/268. So ample light.
Also used flash. Sharpness is set to soft.
A nice photo.
---------- Post added at 09:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 PM ----------
vegetaleb said:
Here a comparison of crop between M9 and Note 4 in not very low light conditions taken by the Tweakers review, you can clearly see the superiority of the Note 4 in the details like the logos of Goodyear and the wheel:
I know it's not final software but this M9 camera is giving the same results the SE C905 could give 6 years ago
M9
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
Note 4
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Note 4 is ISO 400, 1/10
M9 is ISO 640, 1/14
About half a f-stop difference.
What if the M9 tried to get that with ISO 300 ie ISO 200 +0.3 at 1/7 ? or go slower still ISO100+0.3 at 1/3 ? can't do these tricks with the note, slowest it will get is 1/8 and then its auto night mode kicks in which did not happen in this picture. S5 & note 4 have improved their low light capability over their predecessors in auto but i bet you can come close to matching it if not exceeding it with manual on m9.
Light in this shot is quite low btw.

th3 said:
This obsession is what makes every product better in every field, than its predecessor.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That pair is not as important as you think it is and that applies for all with good light.
Where this 'trounces' occurs is in low light. I've already said what needs to be done.
Without this obsession, there can be no better or worse product, and you'll still be saying "good enough" to the HTC Desire camera
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
with macros yeah i would because there is no difference there. I've seen three year old devices do excellent macros. Hint: macros are not a good demonstration of what the latest camera can do.
The only real innovation we've had in sensors is BSI over the last two years. More sensitive in low light. You couldn't do that with 2013 devices, m7 was the sole exception. The rest is processing, how much of it or lack thereof.
On a more general level the trick with these devices is to know when to compromise and when to be maximalist. There is no perfect device so what you end up with is what you can tolerate over what you cannot do without. Every device has this trade off. Unfortunately you are alone with making this decision. Unless you are lucky to find others whose requirements match yours closely. Now do you see why i said minor. its minor in a larger context.
What you're saying... 'Moving the goalpost' it's called. Common trick.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
no tricks. calling it straight.
i don't trust auto.That on some devices its always flawless is a myth. auto goes wrong even on dslrs. what will you do then ? blame the device or your own ignorance. better to understand why and what went wrong and then fix it. and you can.
What i'm sensing here is an unwillingness to do so. That is something else.
Your opinion is not supported by the data we all have.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That does not make what i said wrong. Its up to people here to provide that data. particularly low light with manual.
Its right because i've seen the same done with numerous devices already. This is how cameras work. They need light.
Give them that and you get a good shot. simple.
---------- Post added at 10:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 AM ----------
tryfound said:
No, your whole post is invalid. I'm testing AUTO, feel free to grace us all with your superior photography skills when you get your M9.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
actually i should have said your tests were pointless and it was a waste of my time to go through them. test the note 4 in low light with manual in m9 that's what you should have done.
I wanted to see manual being used in the low light. You've got no excuses when the camera provides it. If you can't do that then its your problem not the m9.
bad auto does not mean bad camera. bad auto will be fixed. The Z1 took 3 months to get it right. What did people do, the lamers whined whereas the rest got busy with manual and got good shots from day 1.
make up your mind or sell.
---------- Post added at 10:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 AM ----------
vegetaleb said:
At last a camera comparison between M9 and Note4 http://www.phonearena.com/reviews/HTC-One-M9-vs-Samsung-Galaxy-Note-4_id3963/page/3
In daylight the Note 4 is significantly better, the M9 will smudge
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Show me smudge in daylight, i want to see how much. actually link the shots.
In low light even resized to 640x480 the M9 is very blurry and smudgy, the Note 4 is millions years ahead.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All the low light shots have the m9 using high iso in guess what auto. The reviewer did not even try manual and blurred one of the shots because he could not hold a 1/7.
Conclusion: unless you want to use your photos only from daylight situations and only resized to Facebook and other social medias (of course no crop at all) . you should consider the Note 4 as a very good choice of camera phone in every situations.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you realise that to display on a HD device you only need 1MP or on a full HD it only takes 2MP. Anything more than that gets resampled.
You don't let facebook or anybody else resize it you do it yourself then upload wherever.

tryfound said:
You're so full of yourself. How dare I waste your precious time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Look, you're not helping me, i'm helping you to help yourself as well as others in this thread.
Make up my mind or sell? Sell what? Some people here asked to see comparisons with the Note 4 and I gave them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And i'm pointing out why there were inadequate. They do not add anything above what reviews are saying.
I did not bother going through the imgur stuff since there are no exifs to see there. Assessing image quality let alone commenting without exifs is pointless.
To suggest that I should be tweaking manual settings on an M9 to achieve the quality of the Note 4's auto shots is beyond comprehension.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
auto shots are average x average, is this what people base their opinions on ?
manual means you take a test auto shot then see whether you can improve it in manual. That is how you will exceed what the reviews have shown and we get to see the best this camera can do. This is what any owner that wants to improve and exploit manual is going to do over time.
Why someone would not want to improve his shots is beyond my comprehension.

tryfound said:
Some more shots with the M9, large res then small res second. Had to use imgur because of filesize so these are compressed images, don't bother zooming for details, some of the higher res images I took have been reduced to a size smaller than the 'small' res images due to their original filesize, I guess that's imgur's way of compressing.
http://imgur.com/PeWfBMx
http://imgur.com/CNrpmW7
http://imgur.com/fOi00v3
http://imgur.com/dMQ1yXV
http://imgur.com/JmvdebB
http://imgur.com/MnF3Fue
http://imgur.com/2AtDjvr (HDR)
http://imgur.com/mP0g0aP (HDR)
http://imgur.com/NApwPvt
http://imgur.com/U8yHyuV
http://imgur.com/i04j8vr
http://imgur.com/1FPUAw7
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I just looked at images and they look really good. I am surprised M9 managed to capture that pristine detail I never seen before. White balance too looks so great not like previously green tint that was all over images.
One thing I am not able to find is camera data in adobe bridge and also colour space is untagged. That usually happens when photo being stripped of exif data. Have you by any chance gave some editing to them?
Thanks

I agree with a pack that camera should perform to the best on auto. If it doesn't , software has to be optimised if it's not then it's engineers faults Or hardware limitations.
it applies to the majority of the smartphone photographers . People want point and shoot.Even being enthusiast photographer and love digging my camera and phone camera I hate when auto underperforms when I simply want to take my phone out of the pocket and shoot.Every enthusiast can tweak but that defeats AUTO purpose .
There are average performers good and very good. Unfortunately M9 is not very good.Good ? Maybe....if light is favourable...at the moment it is consistently weak in certain situations. The usual wash out reminded me of the spill that when lets say camera lens gets in the studio shot or outside and for this purpose hood is used . This is one of the speculations I come up with. Somehow HTC phones consistently suffer from that. Could be they have same team of engineers that can't find the key to successful Software optimization or not so decent hardware just guessing here. Being visualphile that particular trade off with HTC devices just kills me.

nebulaoperator said:
I agree with a pack that camera should perform to the best on auto. If it doesn't , software has to be optimised if it's not then it's engineers faults Or hardware limitations.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
.
I've seen this issue with other devices. xperias camera software was never quite ready at launch. Lots of bashing. Took them a few months to get it right. Mostly auto. Then shots come out with lower ISO which you could have got yourself if you tried. Image quality is better now. why ? iso is lower. So if auto is taking high iso then low iso will get you a better shot.
So when people say camera is not working its auto. No other issues i can see so far. They will fix it but in the mean time if manual settings are tweaked you will get the results you want today. Most do not know how to do that or worse do not want to.
it applies to the majority of the smartphone photographers . People want point and shoot.Even being enthusiast photographer and love digging my camera and phone camera I hate when auto underperforms when I simply want to take my phone out of the pocket and shoot.Every enthusiast can tweak but that defeats AUTO purpose .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
General advice i give to people who cant take photos is go with the koreans or apple. if you want more then look at others.
First time i came across an iphone camera after seeing the usual controls in nokias and android was wtf do i do with this. Some shots can't be got with auto. when there is no access to manual then you are stuck. take it or leave it. its only a phone camera, you're not supposed to do anything more. Who said so ?
Many people take shots and figuring out who is at fault is a tricky business. Of course the tendency is to blame the device but the person taking the shot is the most responsible, always.
There are average performers good and very good. Unfortunately M9 is not very good.Good ? Maybe....if light is favourable...at the moment it is consistently weak in certain situations.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Low light with auto. From what i've seen consistently boosts auto up. There are even night modes which to date i've not seen anybody even try. HELLO!
So auto is not picking these modes for some reason. Its a bug. But if you set it yourself then what is the result. Much better i bet.
The usual wash out reminded me of the spill that when lets say camera lens gets in the studio shot or outside and for this purpose hood is used .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A lens hood decreases lens flare and saturates colours. Take a shot in shade of a sunny area. If you're getting lens flare then its clearly user error. Not just with this device but with any. I would just use my hand out of camera to block some of the light or avoid unwanted reflections. Here is a good example
https://www.flickr.com/photos/palmsolo/sets/72157651089646798/with/16274675233/
cloudy day, massive light box in the sky. Colours are all rich. Which is best. i cannot tell
interestingly enough the low end devices suffer less from this problem because the sensors are not as sensitive. They can take good shots in awful bright light which would be washed out with more capable sensors. Not much use indoors though.
This is one of the speculations I come up with. Somehow HTC phones consistently suffer from that. Could be they have same team of engineers that can't find the key to successful Software optimization or not so decent hardware just guessing here. Being visualphile that particular trade off with HTC devices just kills me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The ones typically from what i've seen blow out the sky. They are a little more quirky in getting those blue skies. Overexposed. HDR is one way to do it but it can be tricked also. i remember this work around from the m8 forum where this guy pointed close to the sun to lock exposure and then recomposed back on the scene. The picture was remarkably better. You don't have to do this all the time only in certain situations.

Review on bunch of cameras.
Gizmodo: The Best Smartphone Camera: Samsung Galaxy S6 Edition. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw4ZO08yA

tryfound said:
Some more shots with the M9, large res then small res second. Had to use imgur because of filesize so these are compressed images, don't bother zooming for details, some of the higher res images I took have been reduced to a size smaller than the 'small' res images due to their original filesize, I guess that's imgur's way of compressing.
http://imgur.com/PeWfBMx
http://imgur.com/CNrpmW7
http://imgur.com/fOi00v3
http://imgur.com/dMQ1yXV
http://imgur.com/JmvdebB
http://imgur.com/MnF3Fue
http://imgur.com/2AtDjvr (HDR)
http://imgur.com/mP0g0aP (HDR)
http://imgur.com/NApwPvt
http://imgur.com/U8yHyuV
http://imgur.com/i04j8vr
http://imgur.com/1FPUAw7
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
jauhien said:
Some yesterday snaps here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/we88grvt72bldy8/4PDA_REQUEST.zip?dl=0
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
One Twelve said:
.
Disclaimer: I should learn how to use quotes.
I've seen this issue with other devices. xperias camera software was never quite ready at launch. Lots of bashing. Took them a few months to get it right. Mostly auto. Then shots come out with lower ISO which you could have got yourself if you tried. Image quality is better now. why ? iso is lower. So if auto is taking high iso then low iso will get you a better shot.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Whether it's ISO OIS or else it does not stop camera to perform well. Take A look at Iphone 6 it works wonders. Low light is not on the par with M7 m8. The thing you have to understand , strongly camera orientated phone should not come with a sticker on the box " want a better image use manual"
[/QUOTE]So when people say camera is not working its auto. No other issues i can see so far. They will fix it but in the mean time if manual settings are tweaked you will get the results you want today. Most do not know how to do that or worse do not want to.[/QUOTE]
A lot people say because AUTO doesn't work. Why would I have buy "they will fix it" if I pay 500-600 GBP for a phone. It doesn't work like that. And in most cases software improved performance but only to a point .I own M7 and know it's weaknesses.And I don't want to use manual though I know my phone from inside to outside.
[/QUOTE]General advice i give to people who cant take photos is go with the koreans or apple. if you want more then look at others.
First time i came across an iphone camera after seeing the usual controls in nokias and android was wtf do i do with this. Some shots can't be got with auto. when there is no access to manual then you are stuck. take it or leave it. its only a phone camera, you're not supposed to do anything more. Who said so ?
Many people take shots and figuring out who is at fault is a tricky business. Of course the tendency is to blame the device but the person taking the shot is the most responsible, always.[/QUOTE]
I saw ifone users don't even know AE/AF lock exist till I showed. Iphone 6 has the simplest UI that can be invented I also call it Dummy proof. I think you can get an app to have access to tweaks option otherwise it's a bit limited to my taste. I can blame phone camera without long hesitation for two reasons: if hardware sucks or software or both. Then no amount of tweaks can help you. M7 is notorious for washouts, poor dynamic range. I found HDR was never a strong suite of M7 neither M8 or M9. However if you can tweak settings you might get away bringing images to photoshop. That's what I do. On the other hand only minority people are enthusiast like we are and the majority should be at least faulted for what smartphone manufacturer didn't do in the first place. If iphone , nokia, samsung(from 2014) proved there is a lot more that can be done with camera.
[/QUOTE]Low light with auto. From what i've seen consistently boosts auto up. There are even night modes which to date i've not seen anybody even try. HELLO!
So auto is not picking these modes for some reason. Its a bug. But if you set it yourself then what is the result. Much better i bet.[/QUOTE]
Low light was nevera weak spot for HTC One line(until now M9) it was cloudy weather condition with little contrast, also situation when I have half frame window in and the other half room. It would go into extremes overexpose the light in the window or underexposedarks barely visible. Sensor and software is not coping with dynamic range. I kind of like night mode but found it to slow in some situation due to the shutter speed so I just used normal mode it did great though. I wish I could try RAW mode but unfortunately I am selling my phone today ( Not sure if RAW will be brought to lollipop for M7)
[/QUOTE]A lens hood decreases lens flare and saturates colours. Take a shot in shade of a sunny area. If you're getting lens flare then its clearly user error. Not just with this device but with any. I would just use my hand out of camera to block some of the light or avoid unwanted reflections. Here is a good example
https://www.flickr.com/photos/palmsolo/sets/72157651089646798/with/16274675233/
cloudy day, massive light box in the sky. Colours are all rich. Which is best. i cannot tell
interestingly enough the low end devices suffer less from this problem because the sensors are not as sensitive. They can take good shots in awful bright light which would be washed out with more capable sensors. Not much use indoors though.[/QUOTE]
I worked with photographer who used hood for the headshots and it was game changer.
For instance Iphone6 is least prone to that error but most Android camera phones I came across are. I was surprised by Note 4 results and S6 I would never think they can do so well. So it must be bug or hardware or both as I mentioned earlier. Nice photos from M9 but WB is somehow a bit off sometimes on the blue side( couple of weeks before it was to yellow green Funny enough you are the first I came across that used hand to block the light I do that too. I guess we both come from the same/similar trade.
[/QUOTE]
The ones typically from what i've seen blow out the sky. They are a little more quirky in getting those blue skies. Overexposed. HDR is one way to do it but it can be tricked also. i remember this work around from the m8 forum where this guy pointed close to the sun to lock exposure and then recomposed back on the scene. The picture was remarkably better. You don't have to do this all the time only in certain situations.[/QUOTE]
AE/AF is a very handy tool. I am glad smartphones have this simple yet very effective feature.

Quadrider10 said:
Review on bunch of cameras.
Gizmodo: The Best Smartphone Camera: Samsung Galaxy S6 Edition. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw4ZO08yA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I didn't think the M9 looked bad. Need to use a computer instead of my note 4
Sent from a mobile gadget...
---------- Post added at 05:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:52 PM ----------
And guys, chill out. I don't think M9 will have the best camera, but it will hopefully be enough. What I'm worried about is the speed of the camera and SOT. I will probably buy it anyway because I love HTCs mix.
Sent from a mobile gadget...

You're not helping anyone mate. Pig with lipstick is still a pig. No matter how much spin you are putting on it.
Everything you are saying is your subjective opinion not backed by any reviewer or already debunked. No data at all.
I don't see any fruit in continuing this back and forth "I think" or "you can do this in software" discussion with you. I, and 99% of users, only care about how the product performs out of the box. A few may go further, with manual. That's it.
Lame apologist excuses don't hide that. If you can do x with M9, you can also do better with S6/iP6/N4 etc starting from a better base.
I'll have the M9 31st March. Then, we'll see.
One Twelve said:
Look, you're not helping me, i'm helping you to help yourself as well as others in this thread.
And i'm pointing out why there were inadequate. They do not add anything above what reviews are saying.
I did not bother going through the imgur stuff since there are no exifs to see there. Assessing image quality let alone commenting without exifs is pointless.
auto shots are average x average, is this what people base their opinions on ?
manual means you take a test auto shot then see whether you can improve it in manual. That is how you will exceed what the reviews have shown and we get to see the best this camera can do. This is what any owner that wants to improve and exploit manual is going to do over time.
Why someone would not want to improve his shots is beyond my comprehension.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
One Twelve said:
That pair is not as important as you think it is and that applies for all with good light.
Where this 'trounces' occurs is in low light. I've already said what needs to be done.
with macros yeah i would because there is no difference there. I've seen three year old devices do excellent macros. Hint: macros are not a good demonstration of what the latest camera can do.
The only real innovation we've had in sensors is BSI over the last two years. More sensitive in low light. You couldn't do that with 2013 devices, m7 was the sole exception. The rest is processing, how much of it or lack thereof.
On a more general level the trick with these devices is to know when to compromise and when to be maximalist. There is no perfect device so what you end up with is what you can tolerate over what you cannot do without. Every device has this trade off. Unfortunately you are alone with making this decision. Unless you are lucky to find others whose requirements match yours closely. Now do you see why i said minor. its minor in a larger context.
no tricks. calling it straight.
i don't trust auto.That on some devices its always flawless is a myth. auto goes wrong even on dslrs. what will you do then ? blame the device or your own ignorance. better to understand why and what went wrong and then fix it. and you can.
What i'm sensing here is an unwillingness to do so. That is something else.
That does not make what i said wrong. Its up to people here to provide that data. particularly low light with manual.
Its right because i've seen the same done with numerous devices already. This is how cameras work. They need light.
Give them that and you get a good shot. simple.
---------- Post added at 10:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 AM ----------
actually i should have said your tests were pointless and it was a waste of my time to go through them. test the note 4 in low light with manual in m9 that's what you should have done.
I wanted to see manual being used in the low light. You've got no excuses when the camera provides it. If you can't do that then its your problem not the m9.
bad auto does not mean bad camera. bad auto will be fixed. The Z1 took 3 months to get it right. What did people do, the lamers whined whereas the rest got busy with manual and got good shots from day 1.
make up your mind or sell.
---------- Post added at 10:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 AM ----------
Show me smudge in daylight, i want to see how much. actually link the shots.
All the low light shots have the m9 using high iso in guess what auto. The reviewer did not even try manual and blurred one of the shots because he could not hold a 1/7.
Do you realise that to display on a HD device you only need 1MP or on a full HD it only takes 2MP. Anything more than that gets resampled.
You don't let facebook or anybody else resize it you do it yourself then upload wherever.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sent using Tapatalk

th3 said:
You're not helping anyone mate. Pig with lipstick is still a pig. No matter how much spin you are putting on it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Went right to the end for the punchline
I'll have the M9 31st March. Then, we'll see.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hah so despite the s6 camera 'trouncing' the m9, you actually went in for what ? .....<drum roll>....the M9 <applause>
Confirms what i said earlier, the image quality differences weren't enough to deter you.
Lame apologist excuses don't hide that. If you can do x with M9, you can also do better with S6/iP6/N4 etc starting from a better base.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah so why didn't you get one of them then ? riiiiightt. Why the narrow obsessions with image quality somehow don't pan out in the end. Bigger forces at play.
With ip6+ and 3rd party camera with manual controls. you can improve over stock auto. With the same on the iP6 or even iP5x and a steady hand you can come close if not match the plus.
S6 & N4 or even the G3 don't offer shutter speed control so there is no way to tell how effective their OIS is, its just stated and i believe its there but no way to tell like say with the iP6+ that can do a 1/4 handheld. Night mode on the recent samsungs is good. Much improved over earlier versions. They boosting sensor gain and fiddling around. To get a similar shot would require an exposure two times longer with other devices including the m9. So you will have to work at it.
No idea when raw support will come for the above. But i bet you get it on the m9 before them. Your details issues will disappear at that point but you have to process each image yourself.
Everything you are saying is your subjective opinion not backed by any reviewer or already debunked. No data at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So you do not understand that delaying shutter and lowering iso will improve image quality in low light ? This applies only with stationary subjects btw, forget doing it with people or anything that won't sit still.
Sop with any camera that allows manual control, i can show you manual lumia 930 vs note 4 where it gets pretty close and auto did not. When more people post later you'll see what i mean.
I'm most interested in the low light shots and rarely bother with daylight comparisons because they are pretty similar. In fact my problem with smartphone cameras is too much detail strange as that may sound. because it makes isolating subjects harder. Everything is so damn clear. Because its the equivalent of an f11 lens in 35mm speak. Depth of field is deeper. Great for macros but not others.
I don't see any fruit in continuing this back and forth "I think" or "you can do this in software" discussion with you. I, and 99% of users, only care about how the product performs out of the box. A few may go further, with manual. That's it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you want better photos what i said works. 99% or not is meaningless. This is xda, do 99 % care about rooting, custom firmwares, or any number of hacks people share here ? So what 99% are you referring to and why do they matter. If anything i'm more interested in the 1%.
what i've said wrt to manual is no different. In fact its common knowledge to anyone who has a clue.
---------- Post added at 04:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:01 AM ----------
*Emix* said:
https://curved.de/news/galaxy-s6-one-m9-iphone-6-im-grossen-kameravergleich-236192
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why they didn't use iP6+ ?
1. night shots all soft because iso got boosted on m9. 2nd shot wrong wb for m9. 4th shot all have blown lights, cannot do this without blending.
2. again iso got boosted on m9. second selfie, because background is brighter so iso drops and looks normal.
3. is about where you set exposure.
4. macros are similar. contrast can be improved in post.
5. panoramas, heh all not to my liking because of cylindrical projection. no straight horizontals with such a wide fov.
6. food, can be improved in post or use manual. That ISO is maybe close to 600 try to get it at half.

curiousgeorge1893 said:
Not quite on topic but I've got an M8 coming, I'm ditching my Xperia Z2 for it, is that a good idea do you think?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What is it about the Z2 that you don't like ? You'd be trading fantastic video stabilisation for none.
The scene modes should help in low light if you use them right. However the lack of shutter control can be frustrating. A quick tweak can't be done. More trial & error.
I was put off by the 4MP camera as i admit I like to zoom and crop, however I like a phone that is good in lowlight.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What does 4MP do ? sharpens the mind. You have to think more carefully about what you want to get it right. If you want to zoom & crop then you need to be closer to your subject. if you can't do that then 4MP is out.
Also, I like a phone that offers manual controls and shutter speed, HTC phones are the only ones that do this plus a like a phone that has a good flash and takes photos quickly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
m8 is a fast shooter in auto. But this gap has been closed with the S6 and the S5 is fast too. Have you considered them ? No shutter control though. Given what they've done may or may not be that critical. These samsungs are primarily auto shooters. If they get what you want great, if not don't complain because you can't do much.
As for similar manual controls the hybrid zooms had them first and optical zoom is a plus. crop in camera not afterwards. K zoom or wait for the successor. Slower though. And apertures are smaller. 3.1 all the way to 6.3. Working OIS.
I was planning on getting a secondhand M9 later in the year but to be honest I am disappointed as I feel that HTC have go fowards then 2 steps backwards with the M9 camera. Whilst it's great it has a higher resolution, the f/2.0 aperature in the M7 and M8 is now f/2.2 on the M9, in my opinion it should have been f/2.0 or f/1.9, also lack of OIS is disappointing and it seems lowlight on the M9 isn't as good as the M8? Very disappointing if so.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The difference between f2.0 and 2.2 is a quarter a f-stop. That's like getting a shot at ISO 200 instead of 250. Or 1/50 instead of 1/40. Its insignficant as one or the other parameter will compensate anyway so not really as notable as reviewers make out.
However the m9 isn't as fast a camera as its predecessors.See the camera speed benchmark. Almost twice as slow as the m8. And the Z2 is faster than the m9. Does this matter ? only if you're rushed. And if you are you're not going to get very good shots to begin with. Is the choice no shot or passable. In that case look at an advanced compact with a 1 inch sensor. Much more light, faster lens and better quality. For the same money.

BoneXDA said:
I do notice the white balance shifting sometimes on the goldish side around sunlit areas, and the M9 tends to underexpose in such conditions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've noticed twice that it gets confused with halogen and neon lights, turning cream and red into green. With a yellow i can see how green can happen by wb adding blue, so just need to use a fluorescent wb or more. But cream into green is inexplicable for me. If its a bug then only a firmware update can fix it.
---------- Post added at 08:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:25 PM ----------
curiousgeorge1893 said:
I like the Z2 but not the post processing, it smudges details, I read on here that the Z3 does the same?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Whenever camera has to produce a jpg and do it fast it has to make a call between preserving detail (ie more noise) or smoothness (less noise). I've seen smudging happen with vegetation, it happens with all jpg outputting devices to varying degrees. To make larger features look good means smaller are going to appear less sharp. Must have the lowest ISO with a longer shutter that means anything that moves is out unless light is good or smudging gets worse.
Only way is raw but you have to process every image yourself, and its a much bigger file so it will be slower than 4mp jpg.
Compare these two from nexus 5. Jpg vs processed RAW. Pull the full resolution and pixel peep all you want.
The originals come from fv5 site.
You control what should be more in detail or not instead of some average one size fits all algorithm with an impossible task that is optimised for speed by trading off image quality. Image quality here isn't file size but a function of how much luminance and chroma noise is preserved or not.
That algorithm and its implementation is the source of lots of heated argument over which is the better camera. Silly really.

SPreston2001 said:
The whole camera comparison may be silly, but 90% of users just want to pick up the phone and snap good pics. Most users don't fiddle around with the camera settings or even know what they do for that matter lol. All they see are which photos look the best when they pick up their phone and take a pic. The M9 camera seems to be alot better than the M8s camera but it still tends to fall behind Apples and Samsungs imaging abilities.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then those people should stick with the brands mentioned. Those brands are for people with no interest in photography. WHAT took the shot is more important than WHO took it. That is the mindset auto everything encourages, what did the owner do, just press a button. Still I would not be surprised to find people even on those boards complaining about something or the other.
Where i'm coming from is what if you don't want those brands for whatever reasons. What then ?
You wait for firmware upgrades and you learn how to get better shots. What went wrong and how to get around it.
My attitude is you are stuck with this thing and you are going to have to make the best of it. Few months later you will find people here doing just that. A review can never match it.

One Twelve said:
Then those people should stick with the brands mentioned. Those brands are for people with no interest in photography. WHAT took the shot is more important than WHO took it. That is the mindset auto everything encourages, what did the owner do, just press a button. Still I would not be surprised to find people even on those boards complaining about something or the other.
Where i'm coming from is what if you don't want those brands for whatever reasons. What then ?
You wait for firmware upgrades and you learn how to get better shots. What went wrong and how to get around it.
My attitude is you are stuck with this thing and you are going to have to make the best of it. Few months later you will find people here doing just that. A review can never match it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So HTC phones are for people who have interest in photography?? Lol they usually have the worst cameras amongst flagship devices yet theyre for photography minded people?? You act as of HTC is the only manufacturer that has the ability to tweak the camera settings. Most "serious" photographers won't use a cellphone to take a pic. The whole idea of cell cams is to capture quick and beautiful everyday life pictures. The ability to tweak the settings is just a added bonus for those who want to get a little more serious with it.
But to each his own I guess. When it comes to cell cams I just wanna pull it, out take a pic, and expect it to look good. If tweaking the settings to get the perfect shot is for you then that's fine. But all I'm saying is those same things can be done with other manufacturers cams too.

gavinfabl said:
This is a photos thread. We need photos! The weather for another day is gales and heavy rain here, so ruined my planned day of shooting again. Using manual settings I have captured some good shots (but private photos of family). Lowering resolution down a fraction helps in lower light. Auto is OK but when I take control even with a single tweak the difference is noticeable. I've used the S6 and S6 Edge and compared it with my Note 4. The S6 has a good auto mode.
This is my S6 and S6 Edge camera shots , and vs Note 4 camera. http://gavinsgadgets.com/2015/03/19...sung-galaxy-s6-and-s6-edge-plus-camera-shots/
I will have more in depth analysis when it's stops raining .....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can't say my experience with the s6 / edge was similar. On the camera front yes the camera is fast. But I found a huge issue with white balance and somewhat heavier than normal post processing (pretty evident when you look at the photos on a camera). The problem is even in pro mode, the camera still struggles with white balance. I am a white balance whore to be honest and when I see a camera struggle, I shudder.
Touchwiz lagged for me. Immensely. I kept flicking through the homescreen, not many widgets above the stock ones, and there were multiple times the device just locked up. Even after rebooting the device quite a few times, there was lag. Off topic, I watched the verge podcast recently and they also affirmed a lot of the lag I experienced with my model.
So far, I'm semi disappointed. The devices are light (like physically, I expected something much heavier). The GS6 felt boxy and somewhat sharper for my tastes while the Edge just "fit" in my hand like a really nice glove. I was stunned that the edge was the more interesting feeling device. Both devices are fingerprint magnets though almost to the point of being disgusting. After 10 minutes of handling, I was in awe with the amount of smudges and oil the back of the device accrued from general handling.
Handling is something that the Edge excels in for the most part. It feels "natural" to swipe at an edge point and get a hamburg menu from Google. And you do in GMAIL, Google Play, and a myriad of other areas. It just feels like touchwiz didn't necessarily provide too many gesture driven tasks that would really take benefit of the edge display. II mean sure you get the call context menus and the light up gimmick, but that's about it sadly. The shame of it all is that above that, the GS6 is a beautiful iphone 5-5s ripoff and the Edge is something of a quagmire begging for a developer to put it to good use. It can be obtrusive but not so much to the point it ruins the user experience.
Overall, I'm left somewhat underwhelmed with the devices. Sure, the screen is gorgeous with marvelous viewing angle fitting for a flagship. But it feels like the GS6 / edge is a iterative step in a unique and bold direction that didn't fully deliver.
Shame actually. Most people will love the GS6 / Edge. Me, I'll be forever disappoint

SPreston2001 said:
So HTC phones are for people who have interest in photography??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What purpose is there to provide manual controls then ? nokia started this btw.
Lol they usually have the worst cameras amongst flagship devices yet theyre for photography minded people??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
its a mindset that comes naturally to those that are into photography. They are going to try a great deal more before throwing in the towel.
Very obvious when i see Jesse's photos. You make the shot not the camera. newbies whenever they see a nice photo always want to know what camera took the shot. The person, well he just clicked. How hard could it be. They like to hide behind their cameras. Often i see shots that are horribly taken and well it was the camera's fault.
HTC is a bad camera with people who cannot take a photo. I've never bought into the 4MP was bad. A full HD screen can only display 2MP anyway. if you're not zooming or need to then you're focus is on how nice the shot looks rather than whether you can count hairs on somebody's head. I've seen people post nice photos here. if you need to crop your photos then you ain't thinking about your shots or your use case exceeds what 4MP can provide.
You act as of HTC is the only manufacturer that has the ability to tweak the camera settings.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lets be clear on what manual settings i'm referring to here. Who else offers shutter speed control ?
apple only woke up to the fact in their latest OS. prior to which you could do squat cos um turtle neck deemed it unecessary. Nokia had them early and the cheapest lumias 635 ? do too. samsungs don't not even in their latest. neither does moto, or LG which went backwards with the G3 or Sony. The Chinese provide some more. So yeah HTC since the m8 was the only android offering on a fixed focal lens that offered shutter control. Makes it easy to fix things if you were so inclined. Samsung's galaxy camera is the only other that can claim to have had it first on android earlier and its a compact.
Most "serious" photographers won't use a cellphone to take a pic. The whole idea of cell cams is to capture quick and beautiful everyday life pictures. The ability to tweak the settings is just a added bonus for those who want to get a little more serious with it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A cam is a cam and you can learn photography with any cam and play more with one that allows manual settings. I don't have a DSLR because i've not got to the point where i need one. I take shots every day and i like to tweak them because auto cant get it right. Its very normal to have access if not always necessary. But i'd rather have them and not need them than the other way around.
If you drive a stick shift you won't enjoy driving a cruiser.
But to each his own I guess. When it comes to cell cams I just wanna pull it, out take a pic, and expect it to look good. If tweaking the settings to get the perfect shot is for you then that's fine. But all I'm saying is those same things can be done with other manufacturers cams too.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I never expect it to look good, if it does then conditions were perfect and i was lucky, i will usually take a auto shot and if it fine leave it at that or try to tweak things about and take a couple more. I always try to take more than one. A phone is going to get thrown into so many varied situations that would challenge a pro. To expect to get it right in one take with a phone camera when pointing at anything you can think of isn't realistic.

nebulaoperator said:
Whether it's ISO OIS or else it does not stop camera to perform well. Take A look at Iphone 6 it works wonders. Low light is not on the par with M7 m8. The thing you have to understand , strongly camera orientated phone should not come with a sticker on the box " want a better image use manual"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A tweak here or there will always improve a shot. How many people know that. Then there is the question of will. if its there and you don't use it then its not the camera's fault. It is there for flexibility.
iphone 6 no, but 6+ will get shots at 1/4. Apple thinks slower than 1/12 is not feasible for iP6. To go slower than 1/4 have to use 3rd party soft to tweak things. iphone camera has always been capable but until ios8 there was no way to access camera parameters so low light was never good.
I saw ifone users don't even know AE/AF lock exist till I showed. Iphone 6 has the simplest UI that can be invented I also call it Dummy proof. I think you can get an app to have access to tweaks option otherwise it's a bit limited to my taste.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes its useful there is also a way to do some exposure comp but it changes metering to spot from average or whatever apple equivalent is. A review was comparing 6 & 6+ and saying photos looked better with 6+ until i saw the exifs and pointed out both were using different metering. So of course shots will look different.
With the latest ios you have much more options than before. Curious apple did a u turn there. But not stock just with 3rd party software.
A lot people say because AUTO doesn't work. Why would I have buy "they will fix it" if I pay 500-600 GBP for a phone. It doesn't work like that. And in most cases software improved performance but only to a point .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So wait for a few months then decide. As for firmware improvements. If you take a shot with firmware a at ISO 200 and compare with firmware b at ISO 200, there will be little difference.
What i mean is they can lower ISO for lower light shots so it does not boost it so high. This will improve auto some. But to go further it requires manual. Possible now, if somebody would try.
They can improve white balance with auto but it will get tricked some times so only up to a point.
I can blame phone camera without long hesitation for two reasons: if hardware sucks or software or both. Then no amount of tweaks can help you. M7 is notorious for washouts, poor dynamic range. I found HDR was never a strong suite of M7 neither M8 or M9. However if you can tweak settings you might get away bringing images to photoshop. That's what I do. On the other hand only minority people are enthusiast like we are and the majority should be at least faulted for what smartphone manufacturer didn't do in the first place. If iphone , nokia, samsung(from 2014) proved there is a lot more that can be done with camera.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They are trying to make it easy for the average person in the hope of selling more products. The traditional way is to learn how to use the product. I know the washouts you mean, blown skies etc. But once a person is aware of that you can improve it.
Low light was nevera weak spot for HTC One line(until now M9) it was cloudy weather condition with little contrast, also situation when I have half frame window in and the other half room. It would go into extremes overexpose the light in the window or underexposedarks barely visible. Sensor and software is not coping with dynamic range. I kind of like night mode but found it to slow in some situation due to the shutter speed so I just used normal mode it did great though. I wish I could try RAW mode but unfortunately I am selling my phone today ( Not sure if RAW will be brought to lollipop for M7)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So what are you getting ?
freedcam can already output raw on m7 & m8 and by the looks of it m9 too. htc made this easy.
I worked with photographer who used hood for the headshots and it was game changer.
For instance Iphone6 is least prone to that error but most Android camera phones I came across are. I was surprised by Note 4 results and S6 I would never think they can do so well. So it must be bug or hardware or both as I mentioned earlier. Nice photos from M9 but WB is somehow a bit off sometimes on the blue side( couple of weeks before it was to yellow green Funny enough you are the first I came across that used hand to block the light I do that too. I guess we both come from the same/similar trade.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It was an accidental discovery. I was taking shot of somebody outside the house from inside with a tab (!) and wondered why the clothes were so saturated.
There is something up with the m9's WB i can see from numerous photos. But nobody is trying manual to fix it.
Was looking at latest world press photo contest. Many with pro dslrs and i saw one person entered an iphone photo and its in the list of winners. Out of 95k entries !!! smartphone photo..Can you believe it

Lol this thread is very entertaining to say the least

twoeleven99 said:
Lol this thread is very entertaining to say the least
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So what's your take on the M9 pictures, if I may ask?
Sent using Tapatalk

Camera produces cold photos - very disappointed! Can it be fixed? White balance?

I just bought this phone, and I'm extremely disappointed in the camera. My wife has a note4 which takes great photos, which I've been using pretty much every day as we recently had a child (our first). My main reason for buying a new phone was to always have a good camera on hand for taking photos of our son. I hate big phones though, hence why I didn't buy the note4.
Anyway, after buying the z3c, it turns out that I hate the photos it takes They are all completely lifeless and cold. When I take a photo with the note4, what I see on the screen is pretty much exactly what I see in real life. With the z3c I can clearly see the difference right away (and it's not just the phone screen). I've tried experimenting with settings in manual mode as well, but I'm not having much luck. Granted I'm not claiming to know much about these things. I don't care if it's not the highest resolution or the sharpest details (or not at this stage at least), I just want some colors that looks like what I'm seeing with my eyes. I've gone back to using the camera from my wifes phone again despite my own phone only being a week old, which is a bit sad.
Is there anything I can do about this? I feel like there should be a simple adjustment somewhere, but I can't find it. The colors on the screen were horrid as well, but I've adjusted those by using the "white balance" settings (where I significantly increased red and green while leaving blue at 0). Is there a similar setting for the camera or is there a different app I can download where I can make this adjustment?
I just want to be able to use my camera...
Here is an example. I took two photos, one after the other, using the z3c and the note4. He moved a little bit so they are not identical, but zoom in on his face and you'll see what I mean. One of the photos has got some color and in the other he looks pale and lifeless. The color in the first photo seem to match what I am seeing in real life (he is half asian, so somewhat yellow skin tone) It's a bit hard to show, but you'll just have to trust me that the photo which has more yellow in it is significantly more accurate. This is not even the worst photo either, this one is probably passable if looked at in isolation, but just one example I quickly snapped just now. They are all like this (or often worse) and it has led me to not wanting to use my camera at all.
EDIT: as a new user I was not able to add a link, but as this is just to dropbox, I hope it's OK that I present it like this. You will have to piece it together if you want to view it:
www dropbox com/sh/vb68vqquykxj13m/AAArXwsdSZHKdJCzz25Tu3Qxa?dl=0
Any suggestions on how I can fix this without having to manually post process the photos are much appreciated. I should note that I really love the phone in all other aspects so far, but the main reason I bought it was for the camera as mentioned.
EDIT: sorry, maybe this belongs in the questions forum. If so I apologize and feel free to move it.
EDIT: to clarify, I found what looks like a white balance setting, but it's only 4 preset modes. But maybe that is all we've got. I'll try and experiment with them and see if any produces better result than wb auto.
EDIT: those settings above seems to seriously mess with the colors, at least in current low light room I'm in. Despite loving the phone, I'm considering cutting my losses while it's still current and try to sell it In which case i would probably pick up a Samsung galaxy s6 instead, which should have an equivalent camera to the note 4. It's much bigger than I prefer though, and inflated price due to hype and being a new model as well

The s6 has a better camera in most conditions. That said the difference isnt that bad. On my screen both photos look very similar.
Anyway the usual thing, try in manual mode 8mp, slightly lower expo, multi, and adda tiny bit of clarity in google photos - seems to give best results on average

bilboa1 said:
The s6 has a better camera in most conditions. That said the difference isnt that bad. On my screen both photos look very similar.
Anyway the usual thing, try in manual mode 8mp, slightly lower expo, multi, and adda tiny bit of clarity in google photos - seems to give best results on average
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not the best example, you probably have to zoom in on face to see the difference. I might try and take a better example photo, but basically I lose all yellow in his skin tone and all I get is white and red.
I'll try your suggestions as well. Thanks.

You'll see from my camera thread and others that the Z3 is simply a poor performing camera indoors. There's little you can do to fix it.
Sent from my Xperia Z3 Compact

PuffDaddy_d said:
You'll see from my camera thread and others that the Z3 is simply a poor performing camera indoors. There's little you can do to fix it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've read your thread now, and it doesn't paint a very positive picture. I still don't understand why it's so bad though, especially since the hardware seems good. From my point of view, I would be OK if pictures are not sharp enough or not capturing as much details as they could, but the poor color replication is a deal breaker.
Do you know if there is any sign that they are working on improving the software? Maybe with the release of z4/z3+ they might release a software update applicable to z3 as well? I know I'm grasping at straws, but still. You'd think they'd try and fix it. If nothing else, it's embarrassing that all competitors are significantly better despite using sonys sensor. This should be their absolute strongest point, their ace card, and instead they are getting destroyed.

White balance is the key for my photos... Auto WB always produces unatractive photos. Cloudy, and sunny settings add some warmth to the photo.

tompab said:
I've read your thread now, and it doesn't paint a very positive picture. I still don't understand why it's so bad though, especially since the hardware seems good. From my point of view, I would be OK if pictures are not sharp enough or not capturing as much details as they could, but the poor color replication is a deal breaker.
Do you know if there is any sign that they are working on improving the software? Maybe with the release of z4/z3+ they might release a software update applicable to z3 as well? I know I'm grasping at straws, but still. You'd think they'd try and fix it. If nothing else, it's embarrassing that all competitors are significantly better despite using sonys sensor. This should be their absolute strongest point, their ace card, and instead they are getting destroyed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I couldn't agree with you more. I read an article where someone managed to compare the display of the Z3 vs the Z3+ and noticed that the plus has a warmer tone. Probably still to early to know is the camera software has improved any though. Sadly, I've started to use filters on the shots that look too cold to help earn them up a bit... More of a workaround than a solution.
Sent from my Xperia Z3 Compact

tompab said:
I just bought this phone, and I'm extremely disappointed in the camera. My wife has a note4 which takes great photos, which I've been using pretty much every day as we recently had a child (our first). My main reason for buying a new phone was to always have a good camera on hand for taking photos of our son. I hate big phones though, hence why I didn't buy the note4.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've got a Z1c(not Z3c) and S6 but I think I can share you some ideas here. Sony tends to like cold WB while S6 produces warm WB. Indeed, they both got pros and cons in my experiences bcoz Samsung is also easy to produce over-warm coast and sometimes not real good, it is just too warm, though in your case I admit this time warm WB got real better result.
If you want a smaller phone, you can consider the upcoming S6 mini(SM-G9198) with 4.6" 720P, s808, 2GB ram, 16GB rom, NFC, 16MP rear camera, 5MP front camera. Sony focus is just all bad(actually the image quality isn't bad though you can't compete it with Note4/S6) and Samsung is like 10 times better when you talking about the speed and focus part.

TheEndHK said:
I've got a Z1c(not Z3c) and S6 but I think I can share you some ideas here. Sony tends to like cold WB while S6 produces warm WB. Indeed, they both got pros and cons in my experiences bcoz Samsung is also easy to produce over-warm coast and sometimes not real good, it is just too warm, though in your case I admit this time warm WB got real better result.
If you want a smaller phone, you can consider the upcoming S6 mini(SM-G9198) with 4.6" 720P, s808, 2GB ram, 16GB rom, NFC, 16MP rear camera, 5MP front camera. Sony focus is just all bad(actually the image quality isn't bad though you can't compete it with Note4/S6) and Samsung is like 10 times better when you talking about the speed and focus part.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I will be very interested to see how that 16mp cam performs, if its anything like the S5 or S6 I may very well convert. Especially if they get the nicer build of the S6 in too, Just please no glass back.

S6 build also means glass back. I have no problems with glass. I'm not too fond of the diplay, Pentile matrix means less subpixels (=less sharpness) and effective resolution similar to qHD. It's clearly visible (rubbih harpness/dottiness) and just bad for the money.
PuffDaddy_d said:
I couldn't agree with you more. I read an article where someone managed to compare the display of the Z3 vs the Z3+ and noticed that the plus has a warmer tone. Probably still to early to know is the camera software has improved any though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Z3+ takes warmer pictures indeed but there's even more digital noise reduction:
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}

majaczos said:
S6 build also means glass back. I have no problems with glass. I'm not too fond of the diplay, Pentile matrix means less subpixels (=less sharpness) and effective resolution similar to qHD. It's clearly visible (rubbih harpness/dottiness) and just bad for the money.
Z3+ takes warmer pictures indeed but there's even more digital noise reduction:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Honestly, I can't even see the difference in color tone between these photos. At most, I see that the plus didn't focus properly in this shot.
Sent from my Xperia Z3 Compact

PuffDaddy_d said:
Honestly, I can't even see the difference in color tone between these photos. At most, I see that the plus didn't focus properly in this shot.
Sent from my Xperia Z3 Compact
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same here... its splitting hairs to say there is any difference in color tone. That could easily be randomness with the Z3 being warm in the next shot.

Look at the concrete. It's much warmer. Another pictures (from gsmarena):
Z3:
http://cdn.gsmarena.com/vv/reviewsimg/sony-xperia-z3/camera/gsmarena_015.jpg
Z3+:
http://cdn.gsmarena.com/vv/reviewsimg/sony-xperia-z3plus/camera/gsmarena_102.jpg

majaczos said:
Look at the concrete. It's much warmer. Another pictures (from gsmarena):
Z3:
http://cdn.gsmarena.com/vv/reviewsimg/sony-xperia-z3/camera/gsmarena_015.jpg
Z3+:
http://cdn.gsmarena.com/vv/reviewsimg/sony-xperia-z3plus/camera/gsmarena_102.jpg
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Okay, yeah, the concrete does look warmer with the plus, but these are very obvious. Though, I question why it appears that so much time passed between shots. The sky is clear in one photo but is cloudy in the next. Overcast conditions will affect the white balance as well. Still a bit too soon for me to judge.
Sent from my Xperia Z3 Compact

Cronis said:
I will be very interested to see how that 16mp cam performs, if its anything like the S5 or S6 I may very well convert. Especially if they get the nicer build of the S6 in too, Just please no glass back.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is no much info yet so I can't tell about S6 Compact but we can make some safe guess here and probably quite close to the true specification.
1. Probably used the new ISOCell 16MP to save cost. We all know that S6 got two sensors which is Sony IMX240 and Samsung ISOCell. This time the ISOCell is improved and better than the one on S5, so it is a 2nd gen. It got better color during at low light while IMX240 got more details. On day time, both sensors are almost identical. Mine S6 got IMX240.
2. OIS is removed for cost.
3. Aperture down to f/2.2 or f/2.4 depending the price strategic
If Samsung willing to give it a f/2.2 then it is safe to say it is a killer for Z3c though Z3c will still own some advantages like waterproof and best battery life. Not sure about microSD card thing. Consider it got a powerful s808 so as a small flagship, very possible to own a f/2.2 aperture.
https://shopmeenova.appspot.com/st/p/mrg2.html
I use this otg to solve my storage problem on S6.

Aperture eans nothing without sensor's size. Z3 can have higher aperture because IMX220 one of the biggest sensors on the (mobile) market right now.
We know nothing about the S6 mini, SM-G9198 sounds like SM-G9098's replacement:
http://gadgets.ndtv.com/samsung-sm-g9098-1608

majaczos said:
Aperture eans nothing without sensor's size. Z3 can have higher aperture because IMX220 one of the biggest sensors on the (mobile) market right now.
We know nothing about the S6 mini, SM-G9198 sounds like SM-G9098's replacement:
http://gadgets.ndtv.com/samsung-sm-g9098-1608
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think it is impossible to be the next G9098 bcoz it got only 3.7" size while G9198 is 4.6" with such powerful s808 cpu, they are in total different market segment.
Aperture is real meaningful in any size bcoz my One S(8MP 1/3.2") got f/2.0 so I know about it and Iphone 5s/6/6+ got only 8MP 1/3" f/2.2 but they are doing very well at low light too.

TheEndHK said:
I think it is impossible to be the next G9098 bcoz it got only 3.7" size while G9198 is 4.6" with such powerful s808 cpu, they are in total different market segment.
Aperture is real meaningful in any size bcoz my One S(8MP 1/3.2") got f/2.0 so I know about it and Iphone 5s/6/6+ got only 8MP 1/3" f/2.2 but they are doing very well at low light too.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe they want to reduce bezels? Or make it bigger? SM-G9098 has very powerful CPU as well, actually it was the most powerful back in 2014..
They're ok in low light situations (partially thanks to decent image processing) but you can't trick physics.

majaczos said:
Maybe they want to reduce bezels? Or make it bigger? SM-G9098 has very powerful CPU as well, actually it was the most powerful back in 2014..
They're ok in low light situations (partially thanks to decent image processing) but you can't trick physics.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
G9098 is 3.7" size while G9198 is 4.6", the different is big enough because there is no 4.6" size flip phone becoz when you put a 4.6" screen together with a physical keyboard, the phone will be very fat and large and customer will end up prefer to get a Note4/5 instead with similar size. But I like the good old day flip phone style, actually I want to see more coming out.

Thanks for all the help guys. Just thought I'd give an update if anyone is interested.
I still really dislike the z3c camera and was considering selling the phone and picking up a galaxy s6. I do however like the other aspects of the z3c, so I ended up buying a proper camera instead. I can use my wife's note4 for a quick snap if I don't have my camera nearby. It's a compromise, but I think it made more sense.

So the S7 camera performs better than the Z5/Z5P ? I can't stop laughing...

Ok I'm Kinda mad here... There are things I don't understand and I will probably never....
How on earth, would every review on the internet including youtube videos give the upper hand to the S7 camera which has SONY IMX260 R EXMOR that has 7.18 mm sensor size and a 1.4 μm x 1.4 μm unit cell size while the Z5/Premium has the "exclusive cutting edge" RS EXMOR IMX300 with 7.87 mm sensor size and 1.1 μm x 1.1 μm pixel size ?
And please don't tell me about image processing ? Why on earth a giant Japanese corporation such as SONY specialized and leader in photography, videography, pictures and music Entertainment without forgetting their BIONZ image processor that compete or even wins over Nikon EXPEED and
Canon DIGIC can't do image processing right on a freaking CMOS sensor ?
Now yeah the Z5/P pictures are decent and although very good on a very sunny day.... I'll remain quiet for the low light part....
So to sum it up... a Samsung with an IMX260 12MP sensor is on par or outperforms a Sony IMX300 23MP ( 25MP ) sensor...
Funny isn't it ?

It's not funny at all.
Still,I find that Z5 camera is best on market atm.
Xperia Z5 via Tapatalk

Very easy good hardware and bad software.
Sony can't compete software wise with who had nexus phones.
Samsung LG know better about android and how to create a better software cause they took lot of info from Google while they have Nexus phones.

Well money talks. S7 just cant match Z1+ line. Take a look at original S7 full resolution photos. Photo IQ is awfull on the S7. Over-sharpening that creates awfull halos and contrast, to much texture detail, texture extraction that gives a gritty look and to much noise reduction that makes for a blurry image with lost detail and plastic look. S7 has borderline the bad CRT chromatic aberration look and reminds me of old cheap digital cameras.
I'll quote one of my other posts wher one can see that even in an unfair comparision that favors the S7 my Z1 just performs much better. Much better and if making things more even by choosing 2048x1536 for my Z1 photos and same or similar for S7 my Z1 just walks all over the S7. Z5 does no worse unless in SA or the NR goes wonky.
When I look at S7 photos in good and low light it just reminds me of the bad CRT "chromatic aberration" look. Great artistic value but the persons S7 destroys IQ beyond reparation. https://www.flickr.com/photos/gavinfabl100/
I mean even the Z1 blows it out and Z5 even more. Look at this comparision which favors the S7 as the images are shown at 100% size which means my Z1 is showing a far bigger image aswell as in worse lighting conditions with far less photons in the ambient to capture (see shutter speed difference) yet it performs better. Would I scale it down to same size as the S7 it would be a brutal comparision leaving the S7 in the dust. One can choose 2048 pixel width to see this in the links.
Stock original photos, default camera apps.
S7 buildings.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gavinfabl100/25743187832/sizes/o/
Z1 buildings.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/csls/25516883060/sizes/o/
S7 forest.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gavinfabl100/25837956126/sizes/o/
Z1 forest.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/csls/25019022984/sizes/o/
Might take some time some day with the Z5c and capture photos in same locations once the sun is about same (wild weather over here).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And here are more S7 samples.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gavinfabl100/25837956126/sizes/o/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gavinfabl100/25208922064/sizes/o/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gavinfabl100/25404249180/sizes/o/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gavinfabl100/25021532094/sizes/o/
And here is low light.
Will check files once released here and compare CRC to see if they changed algorithms. As for the S7 I agree, it does moderately good but far worse than Sonys Xperia Z1+ line. The biggest issue on the S7 besides tending to go overboard with sharpening and noise reduction which smoothes out to much and gives a bad fake plastic look (often easily visible around fine-grain detail like branches and leaves) is that it also when post-processing brightens up the image by tweaking curves. Most software does this but should be catiously used to extract detail from low contrast areas. Samsung goes overboard often giving it the 'fake ISO' look where black turns grey. Xperia Z1+ phones give quite a bit better low light photos same ISO for ISO and shutter speed while not even having to resort to major curve tweaking just minor or barely any and it does it selectively in a often excellent way. I assume the BIONZ is really a power beast for such dedicated tasks but sensors in Sonys phones are just better even though older and they are coupled with great optics.
It's just now that Samsung is starting use similar tech that Sony already employed in their mobiles years ago. I think Iphone 6s also got a bit of it but it relies mostly on multi-frame photo composition to create higher ISO like the Nexus 6p HDR+ does. Xperia Z1+ also does this but only when doing ISO 6400 (atleast the Z1) else not. Problem is you need to keep scene static else you get ghosting and bluriness. Haven't checked it fully out for the Z5c though but it should do better.
I guess you could say the S6 gives more detail and less blur but it also has way to much curve tweaking as the S7 but just much worse for same low light situations. S6 just turns to a mess at ISO 1000+ and low light while S7 does better. Both S6 and S7 also automatically (atleast in auto mode) if stable does multi-frame capture in low light to create improved noise reduction. Why some S6/S7 photos at say ISO 1000 looks bad and others much cleaner. Scene has to be static though and mobile firm. Same concept you can find in ProCapture camera app and their noise reduction mode.
Photo example of the S7 post-processing and curves.
Without HDR enabled.
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
With HDR enabled.
Sony avoids this in most cases and dont go overboard like that keeping blacks deep and rich aswell as colors punchy and representation of captured scene is far better.
And a Z1 sample from manual mode 8MP, 1/8 ISO 3200. Little and smart use of brightening via the changing curves despite high ISO of 3200 keeping the blacks quite well, global contrast and colors punchy despite heavy tungsten lighting!
Manual mode, 1/8 ISO 1600 of same scene two days apart around same time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

The sensor is just one part of the camera, there are so many other elements that can make it better or worse.
That's like saying one restaurant has better steak and complaining as somewhere else uses better cows - it's all about the cooking of the meat and the accompaniments that go with it.
In photography's case it's about the lens system, the image stabilisation and the post-processing. As posters above have said, the software controlling the Sony sensor in the S7 is great, no doubt.
Answer me this: if you give an amazing camera to a bad photographer will you get a better photo than giving a bad camera to a good photographer?

Answer me this: if you give an amazing camera to a bad photographer will you get a better photo than giving a bad camera to a good photographer?[/QUOTE]
Let me answer :
Are you able to drive faster in a Bentley than in a Renault even if you are a bad driver ?
Yes !!!
Same with photos quality (not photo skills)
I agree that the human factor is there but can not excuse all Sony conservative attitude plus Sony do not want to let 3rd party improve their lack of dev.
But still happy with my Z5 result... It is a phone and we do not have to expect the same quality as a Reflex

NJ72 said:
The sensor is just one part of the camera, there are so many other elements that can make it better or worse.
That's like saying one restaurant has better steak and complaining as somewhere else uses better cows - it's all about the cooking of the meat and the accompaniments that go with it.
In photography's case it's about the lens system, the image stabilisation and the post-processing. As posters above have said, the software controlling the Sony sensor in the S7 is great, no doubt.
Answer me this: if you give an amazing camera to a bad photographer will you get a better photo than giving a bad camera to a good photographer?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I understand what you're trying to say but is it justified ? Is it possible that SONY can't make a software that control their own sensors ? Is it acceptable that other companies using SONY sensors whether modified or not, can make better use of it ?
SONY that has been in the photography industry since decades can't deal with their own driver and post processors on a mobile phone ?
Again the pictures on the Z5P are good but try going zoom to 100%... most of the details are missing compared to rivals.... not sure if it's lack of sharpness whatsoever but certainly the post processing needs work.
Look at their Z5 camera promotion bragging about the auto-focus speed... I literally had to find one single time I could get a a clear photo of somebody moving.
Don't get me wrong I'm a huge fan of the device but it just puts me on my nerve that we have the best hardware and the " best " brand name yet we always have excuses for the camera behavior.

Xeon said:
I understand what you're trying to say but is it justified ? Is it possible that SONY can't make a software that control their own sensors ? Is it acceptable that other companies using SONY sensors whether modified or not, can make better use of it ?
SONY that has been in the photography industry since decades can't deal with their own driver and post processors on a mobile phone ?
Again the pictures on the Z5P are good but try going zoom to 100%... most of the details are missing compared to rivals.... not sure if it's lack of sharpness whatsoever but certainly the post processing needs work.
Look at their Z5 camera promotion bragging about the auto-focus speed... I literally had to find one single time I could get a a clear photo of somebody moving.
Don't get me wrong I'm a huge fan of the device but it just puts me on my nerve that we have the best hardware and the " best " brand name yet we always have excuses for the camera behavior.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In my opinion it's quite obvious with the Z5 premium that Sony spent more time focussing on the display than the camera's image processing. Sony could do a lot more with the camera than they do, but there are numerous other factors Sony consider when designing a smartphone. Evidently they either A) do not have the skills, B) don't rate it high enough or C) think they nailed it when it comes to the camera.
I agree that Sony should have done more with it, but I bought the phone knowing that they hadn't and I'd buy it again over Samsung's TouchWiz interface. I prefer my DSLR for photography, for me the rest of the phone is more important.
And, in answer to your first question, yes - what I said is justified. Whether it's what you'd have done if you were part of Sony's dev team, who knows, but what they did is make a very good phone with a camera that could be better.

NJ72 said:
In my opinion it's quite obvious with the Z5 premium that Sony spent more time focussing on the display than the camera's image processing. Sony could do a lot more with the camera than they do, but there are numerous other factors Sony consider when designing a smartphone. Evidently they either A) do not have the skills, B) don't rate it high enough or C) think they nailed it when it comes to the camera.
I agree that Sony should have done more with it, but I bought the phone knowing that they hadn't and I'd buy it again over Samsung's TouchWiz interface. I prefer my DSLR for photography, for me the rest of the phone is more important.
And, in answer to your first question, yes - what I said is justified. Whether it's what you'd have done if you were part of Sony's dev team, who knows, but what they did is make a very good phone with a camera that could be better.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well to be honest, SONY only brags about their camera performance in their devices.... This time in September they mentioned nothing but the 4K screen and the IMX300. No major change to the device design, software is close to stock android and the IP68 has been there for ages.
http://www.sonymobile.com/global-en/products/phones/xperia-z5/
See ? They are so proud of their camera that this is the only marketing card in their hands for now. As for lack of expertise, I really doubt but I can nothing but believe that they thought they nailed it when in fact it's still horrible in low light conditions.

The big problem I have with the Z5 is its shutter lag and no burst shooting. So you're left with rapidly tapping the shutter button which only gives you about 3fps. On the S7 you get a burst mode at over 20fps.
It's ridiculous how their ads show an instantaneous shutter but it could be no further from the truth. Even with Marshmallow the shutter lag is still pretty bad. This seagull was standing on the bridge when I pressed the shutter and the camera captured when it already started to fly away.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j5hcj2jeazzjs77/DSC_0988.JPG?dl=0
Even HTC M9+ Supreme Camera has faster shutter and better manual options than Z5. It uses IMX230 and is a pretty bi

FYLin21 said:
The big problem I have with the Z5 is its shutter lag and no burst shooting. So you're left with rapidly tapping the shutter button which only gives you about 3fps. On the S7 you get a burst mode at over 20fps.
It's ridiculous how their ads show an instantaneous shutter but it could be no further from the truth. Even with Marshmallow the shutter lag is still pretty bad. This seagull was standing on the bridge when I pressed the shutter and the camera captured when it already started to fly away.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j5hcj2jeazzjs77/DSC_0988.JPG?dl=0
Even HTC M9+ Supreme Camera has faster shutter and better manual options than Z5. It uses IMX230 and is a pretty bi
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is what I'm talking about... you see... in your pic nothing looks OK, what was the focus doing ? i can't find any part of the pic clear....
One thing I noticed is that even Whatsapp camera looks awful. I understand that the pic is compressed and the post processing is non existent but on my Xperia Z the difference wasn't noticeable that much.

gm007 said:
Very easy good hardware and bad software.
Sony can't compete software wise with who had nexus phones.
Samsung LG know better about android and how to create a better software cause they took lot of info from Google while they have Nexus phones.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry but I tend to disagree. I dont think OEM release need google assistance. In fact SONY is very conservative when it comes to camera software. I bet they know how to unlock raw mode and compatibility yet they don't want to.
It's obvious that the post processing has been inconsistent across the Xperia line. A bit of trial and error if you want my opinion....
What you say about bad software is correct however unjustified. I can't accept it from an industry leader such as SONY.
OK the camera is almost perfect in manual mode if you want to go hardcore and adjust every possible value and mode for a snapshot but I don't want to spend 2 minutes for that :
Look at the difference between iPhone 6S and Z5 camera.... this lack of details is what makes me go nuts.

Xeon said:
This is what I'm talking about... you see... in your pic nothing looks OK, what was the focus doing ? i can't find any part of the pic clear....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This has been zoomed a bit using "clear image zoom" which just oversharpens things. It could be fine if they just use something that rounds off the edges for up sampling, but you see a lot of jagged circular blobs throughout the edges. I had taken a few pictures of this bird standing there but the camera kept overexposing the scene. Then I brought the exposure down and tried taking a photo - the bird a still standing there the moment I pressed the shutter.
The only thing to get around no burst mode is using 4K video. You can capture 8MP stills while you film but sometimes it causes the video to stutter and it takes a long time to save them. The stills also look worse than the video itself - the contrast is lower with washed out colours. It's better to grab frames after filming but you'l need another app to do this and I'm not sure which one as I do it on my computer using Media Player Classic. You can also crop to 1080p which is better than using the digital zoom in the app - unfortunately the bitrate of 4K video is a bit low so you can see some artifacts when cropped to 1080p ...
Is the shutter lag due to software or hardware? it's hard to say. Low resolution photos from Facebook messenger can be taken instantaneously, but all the third party apps I've tried exhibit shutter lag - I think even worse than the stock camera app... and don't forget only 8MP works with third party apps.
If the images were downscaled to 8MP or something, they would be good compared to some other cameras but that defeats the purpose of having 20/23MP.
Imagine seeing the loch ness monster and you took a photo but the shutter lag means your photo doesn't show it because it dove into the water

I will give you a small example why sony is bad software wise,
In lollipop we had fingerprint scanner test in the diagnostic menu and the test was not working.
So instead to fix it in marshmallow they removed the test completely lol.

Xeon said:
Ok I'm Kinda mad here... There are things I don't understand and I will probably never....
How on earth, would every review on the internet including youtube videos give the upper hand to the S7 camera which has SONY IMX260 R EXMOR that has 7.18 mm sensor size and a 1.4 μm x 1.4 μm unit cell size while the Z5/Premium has the "exclusive cutting edge" RS EXMOR IMX300 with 7.87 mm sensor size and 1.1 μm x 1.1 μm pixel size ?
And please don't tell me about image processing ? Why on earth a giant Japanese corporation such as SONY specialized and leader in photography, videography, pictures and music Entertainment without forgetting their BIONZ image processor that compete or even wins over Nikon EXPEED and
Canon DIGIC can't do image processing right on a freaking CMOS sensor ?
Now yeah the Z5/P pictures are decent and although very good on a very sunny day.... I'll remain quiet for the low light part....
So to sum it up... a Samsung with an IMX260 12MP sensor is on par or outperforms a Sony IMX300 23MP ( 25MP ) sensor...
Funny isn't it ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, and it's no surprise, it has been the case forever.
There was never any need for Sony to stupidly try to play the MP race again, seems they didn't learn from the point and shoot and DSLR MP race/nonsense. It's all marketing BS to say hey we've got something that no one else has.
Push the boundaries of the ideal MP for a certain sensor size, then you will always have problems with different types of noise entering your photo, due to sensor heat and the sensors small size and not being able to dissipate that amount of heat effectively, as a result to clean all this up they end up having to have pretty aggressive noise reduction algorithms, this also keeps the jpg photo size down a fair bit, handy for a phone unless you want to run your storage out in no time flat. Approx 25-35MB per photo @ 23MP low light high ISO these could have been even bigger.
Realistically would have just been better off running at 12MP and requiring much less noise reduction because due to less heat build up in the photo sites of the sensor.

danw_oz said:
No, and it's no surprise, it has been the case forever.
There was never any need for Sony to stupidly try to play the MP race again, seems they didn't learn from the point and shoot and DSLR MP race/nonsense. It's all marketing BS to say hey we've got something that no one else has.
Push the boundaries of the ideal MP for a certain sensor size, then you will always have problems with different types of noise entering your photo, due to sensor heat and the sensors small size and not being able to dissipate that amount of heat effectively, as a result to clean all this up they end up having to have pretty aggressive noise reduction algorithms, this also keeps the jpg photo size down a fair bit, handy for a phone unless you want to run your storage out in no time flat. Approx 25-35MB per photo @ 23MP low light high ISO these could have been even bigger.
Realistically would have just been better off running at 12MP and requiring much less noise reduction because due to less heat build up in the photo sites of the sensor.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ironically their sales and marketing strategy is flawed to death and it's chaotic but they wanna do marketing they do it the wrong way.
Seriously they should start recruiting...

hawker_gb said:
It's not funny at all.
Still,I find that Z5 camera is best on market atm.
Xperia Z5 via Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
post like this really make me wonder about my specific device.... because i am totally with op here: the camera may be very good (the best?) in sunny/ bright conditions, but is just useless in darker situations (not just pitch black.. darker..). a camera like that can NEVER be called the best on market.. i would say

Barthlon said:
post like this really make me wonder about my specific device.... because i am totally with op here: the camera may be very good (the best?) in sunny/ bright conditions, but is just useless in darker situations (not just pitch black.. darker..). a camera like that can NEVER be called the best on market.. i would say
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They should have less NR in low contrast areas for photos as right now it is quite aggressive. Seems the area noise reduction aint so 'clever'. Previous Z phones perform much better in low contrast areas with no smudged out detail. My Z1 for example outdoes my Z5c easily in detail clarity across all contrast variables while keeping noise as low or even lower and resorts to less post-processing. I assume some can be attributed to not as wide sensor (26mm vs 23mm) and 1,2um vs 1,1um pixel size and perhaps the focus system (less electronical noise). They might heat up differently to. Will be interesting to see how the Xperia X performs since AFAIK it uses same or similar sensor as the Z5. Also seems Z5c uses more NR in superior auto vs manual mode despite same ISO.
But despite that it stands really good against competition and overall it just beats them.
Here is an example of the area noise rduction system it uses akin to BIONZ X algorithms just that it is to aggressive. Look at tree trunk and streetlight pole. High contrast area is sharp but low contrast area is smudged by the NR. The problem is it failed to detect that there are bushes infront smudging them out. This is the area NR not working as intended.

EQ2000 said:
They should have less NR in low contrast areas for photos as right now it is quite aggressive. Seems the area noise reduction aint so 'clever'. Previous Z phones perform much better in low contrast areas with no smudged out detail. My Z1 for example outdoes my Z5c easily in detail clarity across all contrast variables while keeping noise as low or even lower and resorts to less post-processing. I assume some can be attributed to not as wide sensor (26mm vs 23mm) and 1,2um vs 1,1um pixel size and perhaps the focus system (less electronical noise). They might heat up differently to. Will be interesting to see how the Xperia X performs since AFAIK it uses same or similar sensor as the Z5. Also seems Z5c uses more NR in superior auto vs manual mode despite same ISO.
But despite that it stands really good against competition and overall it just beats them.
Here is an example of the area noise rduction system it uses akin to BIONZ X algorithms just that it is to aggressive. Look at tree trunk and streetlight pole. High contrast area is sharp but low contrast area is smudged by the NR. The problem is it failed to detect that there are bushes infront smudging them out. This is the area NR not working as intended.
Well please accept my very subjective opinion... from first look the pic is catchy, nice, really nice colors but then the disaster...... it's certainly not a focus issue.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Xeon said:
Well please accept my very subjective opinion... from first look the pic is catchy, nice, really nice colors but then the disaster...... it's certainly not a focus issue.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Kinda hard to make out what you are reffering to but "disaster"? Z5 series applies to aggressive area based NR in low contrast areas, as for the rest the photo is quite good and natural looking. Certainly better than most S7 photos you can find of similar ISO, shutter speed and scenery type. Atleast the NR can be countered partially with texture detail and clarity filters to bring out contrast in smudged areas. S7 you cant do nothing to repair photos as they are beyond reparation.
Click on images to view them in Flickr default display size. Atrocious and beyond reparation. The Z5 IQ despite smudgy NR in low contrast areas is head and shoulders above the S7 IQ. Z5 looks to the DSLR side while S7 looks to the cheap old digital camera side.
S7. Atrocious, the borderline bad CRT chromatic aberration look. Like relief filter applied shifting pixels due to horrible post-processing and subpar sensor.
Z5. The area based NR problem is clearly visible yet it looks much more natural and better despite being taken in much worse lighting conditions as evident by shutter speed and postition of sun and shadows.
As for the highlights you made that is pretty much what I already noted though the left side is from lens problem, that unit has decentered lenses thus blurred sides, right and/or left. You can see that in S7 to depeding on unit. Such a unit should be replaced. And all cameras have to do some detail extraction in low contrast areas (shadowed/non directly lit areas) and thus wont be as detailed as lit areas.
Take a look at S7 photo with shadowed areas, see? Noisy, smudgy with blotches and horrible even though ISO is low. Atleast the Z5 smoothes it out mostly OK. (left and right side)
One more time! You see? (right side trees and bushes)
You still cant see it!? Well some more then!
To the right!
To the left!
To the left!
And all around! :laugh:

Database Users

welcome