http://www.xperiablog.net/2015/04/2...capture-in-future-if-there-is-popular-demand/
It's a marketing trick of course, don't worry they'll implement it in future updates
this is the "official" link where you can post your raw request - http://talk.sonymobile.com/t5/Software-Updates/Camera2-API/td-p/974742
suggestion - read 5th post - they want people to ask for raw support and maybe will implement it
I couldn't care less about RAW mode. What is really usefull is manual shutter speed! Good news is, that incorporating RAW mode will probably also mean manual control of shutter speed. So I'm supporting this case
Said it on Reddit and will say here. Sod RAW, give us Camera 2 API so third party apps with decent processing algorithm can access the camera directly.
Z4 should've been the first Android phone with manual shutter control and RAW output.
Why is LG beating Sony in the camera department? That's embarrassing.
Manufacturers as HTC and Xiaomi bring some time ago Full Manual controls... So there wasn't reason to don't bring Manual Controls in previous Android versions
I don't really need it, but if most people want it I think they should definitely add it.
Until people have the need to replace prosumer or pro cameras, adding raw into an everyday consumer device (albeit a high-end flagship phone) will just add additional headaches all-around(support calls/emails etc), and not benefit bottom-line (sales). These all-encompassing gaming/social/internet/communication/camera devices are difficult to target a specific audience because they cover such a wide range of users and their different needs and wants.
Everyone's attitude here is they're not happy with the SOC jpegs and expecting RAW will allow them to "do it better" themselves. That's an issue with the processing(that's speculation until raw files can be peeped). This is what Sony needs to fix, not just throwing RAW at us. Most people don't want to process raw files from WB to post-resize sharpening of what they ate just so they can share it on IG. RAW is not something anybody will want to upload without PP. It isn't going to magically make a ****ty camera better. If anything it'll only reveal how good or bad a camera truly is.
So why would Sony obviously, have-to, necessarily, provide this feature in any of their phones? Just because walkmans have a long history, doesn't mean they are going to give you wolfson dacs into the xperia and market it to people who don't care.
That being said. I'd be happy to have the option to take pictures in raw format, but foresee myself barely using it. If I cared enough to take higher quality pictures, I would put in the effort to bring out my actual full frame camera and lens and shoot raw all day long with high quality 60fps capture as well. I'm also going to play with the g4 in the store and check out raw uploads on the net to see what it can do, but not because I am looking to replace an actual camera with it. If you offer up pro features and market it as such - then you better beat other pro options in implementation and results, otherwise I'm not going to take it seriously and mark it as just another half-assed novelty feature and continue to use an actual camera that implements it well.
yeah yeah tl;dr
dobygot said:
Until people have the need to replace prosumer or pro cameras, adding raw into an everyday consumer device (albeit a high-end flagship phone) will just add additional headaches all-around(support calls/emails etc), and not benefit bottom-line (sales). These all-encompassing gaming/social/internet/communication/camera devices are difficult to target a specific audience because they cover such a wide range of users and their different needs and wants.
Everyone's attitude here is they're not happy with the SOC jpegs and expecting RAW will allow them to "do it better" themselves. That's an issue with the processing(that's speculation until raw files can be peeped). This is what Sony needs to fix, not just throwing RAW at us. Most people don't want to process raw files from WB to post-resize sharpening of what they ate just so they can share it on IG. RAW is not something anybody will want to upload without PP. It isn't going to magically make a ****ty camera better. If anything it'll only reveal how good or bad a camera truly is.
So why would Sony obviously, have-to, necessarily, provide this feature in any of their phones? Just because walkmans have a long history, doesn't mean they are going to give you wolfson dacs into the xperia and market it to people who don't care.
That being said. I'd be happy to have the option to take pictures in raw format, but foresee myself barely using it. If I cared enough to take higher quality pictures, I would put in the effort to bring out my actual full frame camera and lens and shoot raw all day long with high quality 60fps capture as well. I'm also going to play with the g4 in the store and check out raw uploads on the net to see what it can do, but not because I am looking to replace an actual camera with it. If you offer up pro features and market it as such - then you better beat other pro options in implementation and results, otherwise I'm not going to take it seriously and mark it as just another half-assed novelty feature and continue to use an actual camera that implements it well.
yeah yeah tl;dr
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Some people have a z3 and a proper camera but want the option to use raw on the their phone for when they don't have their proper camera with them. Or they might not have a proper camera but want to get into photography; using their phone is a cheaper alternative, and raw (in addition to the other things api2 provides) helps here. It's not something I imagine too many people will use but having the option is better than not having the option; no-one's suggesting that jpg will go away and everyone will have to convert their raw files after every shoot.
Webern said:
Some people have a z3 and a proper camera but want the option to use raw on the their phone for when they don't have their proper camera with them. Or they might not have a proper camera but want to get into photography; using their phone is a cheaper alternative, and raw (in addition to the other things api2 provides) helps here. It's not something I imagine too many people will use but having the option is better than not having the option; no-one's suggesting that jpg will go away and everyone will have to convert their raw files after every shoot.
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Click to collapse
It would be nice if they allowed saving both JPG and RAW like most DSLRs (even if it is slower) as then we would have a JPG to post on social media straight away and a RAW to enhance later if we wanted to :good:
^ this !
Webern said:
Some people have a z3 and a proper camera but want the option to use raw on the their phone for when they don't have their proper camera with them. Or they might not have a proper camera but want to get into photography; using their phone is a cheaper alternative, and raw (in addition to the other things api2 provides) helps here. It's not something I imagine too many people will use but having the option is better than not having the option; no-one's suggesting that jpg will go away and everyone will have to convert their raw files after every shoot.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree that having the option is better than not having it. My post wasn't meant to argue the uses of RAW, but how users' needs affect mfger's decisions on spending money, because ultimately all they care about is how it'll affect the bottom line today or in the future. Sony attempting to capture this uber niche group for the z3 won't help them. Future models? Maybe, but it seems unlikely if they need to consider it eating into cybershot sales (Some yet to be released cybershots don't even shoot in RAW). Also, how far would they have to take the updates once they enable RAW to "us" ? Aperture priority, shutter priority, exposure locking, bracketing, etc.
The whole Manual control and raw output angle may or may not work for LG. But it makes sense for them to try it... because they really don't have anything else going for them against Samsung.
Z3 camera has issues
The Z3 camera has well known issues (like many cell phone cameras have).... purple blobs under demanding light conditions and some more
If you know how to handle RAW files then there's a better chance to correct that
but I will also need a specific RAW codec for the Z3 otherwise the most RAW converters won't work or will produce false colours.
What the user really want is a Camera with proper Manual controls and not that messed-up thing from Sony in the current camera ui
Z3 camera blows chunks. Really, there isn't much more to say about it. Soft, mushy, noisy. Exposure often off. Just not a camera experience fitting a top end phone from the worlds leading digital photography OEM.
Ideally Sony would improve the SOC JPGs. If they where industry leading standard then there wouldn't be so much demand for RAW.
In the likely scenario were Sony engineers are unable (or unwilling/not backed by the bean counters) to deliver improved JPEG output, RAW is a decent workaround.
But as mentioned, unless the likes of Adobe can support the RAW files then they won't be very useful. Anyone who knows what to do with a RAW will want to fit it onto their already established work flow. If Sony can just output DNG's (DNG+JPEG) that would be ok.
Sony are bleeding market share with xperias. They need to really deliver some great updates to their existing phones and release some exceptional new hardware to regain some favour from consumers. Support is the key, if they can deliver top notch updates that markedly improve end user experience then people will buy their hardware, knowing they will be supported by the manufacturer for the life of the product. It's not just about updating the ROM to the latest android release, its about enhancing the experience, listening to consumers concerns and demands and responding quickly and effectively.
ozzy lion said:
But as mentioned, unless the likes of Adobe can support the RAW files then they won't be very useful. Anyone who knows what to do with a RAW will want to fit it onto their already established work flow. If Sony can just output DNG's (DNG+JPEG) that would be ok.
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The API requires that DNG is output. So as long as Sony adheres to the Camera2 API that is what we will get!
In my opinion, Sony does not have to do anything to their camera software. Just implement the Camera2 API and there are already other camera apps out there which utilize the new features.
wasnt there articles published recently stating that Samsung devices were going to receive RAW mode too? and HTC joining in as well? forgot where the articles went, but if true, i see no reason why Sony should hold back when everyone else is doing it.
Sony needs to offer something that the competitors/market doesnt have, or at least be the first to do so... not following others >.>
abhinav.tella said:
I don't really need it, but if most people want it I think they should definitely add it.
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You need it without knowing you need it; developers who work on camera-related apps such as Open Camera currently get jpegs from the camera, so if they want to perform further processing such as auto-rotating the photo, superimposing date/time etc it's another generational loss of quality. If they could instead get a raw file they could do all that losslessly and then offer the user of the usual (but better quality) jpeg or raw.
LitoNi said:
wasnt there articles published recently stating that Samsung devices were going to receive RAW mode too? and HTC joining in as well? forgot where the articles went, but if true, i see no reason why Sony should hold back when everyone else is doing it.
Sony needs to offer something that the competitors/market doesnt have, or at least be the first to do so... not following others >.>
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did that include existing devices, or future devices?
I don't know if I've seen any device (other than possibly Nexus devices) that had RAW capability retrofitted after-the-fact - even devices that had Qualcomm's proprietary RAW support. (Which isn't compatible with the new camera API RAW stuff - just like Qualcomm's multiSIM stuff was completely incompatible with the MTK-based stuff Google put into 5.x)
Related
Some articles stated that with Android L, devices will receive the capability to save photos in RAW .dng format, providing a far superior photo quality for shutter bugs. I have looked through the stock sammy camera app, but no RAW, and I was unable to find another app on play store to do this. Is there any camera app you guys can suggest that has that format? Please help, I don't mind if I have to pay for the app just give me a link or something, please
posedatull said:
Some articles stated that with Android L, devices will receive the capability to save photos in RAW .dng format, providing a far superior photo quality for shutter bugs. I have looked through the stock sammy camera app, but no RAW, and I was unable to find another app on play store to do this. Is there any camera app you guys can suggest that has that format? Please help, I don't mind if I have to pay for the app just give me a link or something, please
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This might help.
It's a third party app from playstore Photo Mate
amk19 said:
This might help.
It's a third party app from playstore Photo Mate
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Click to collapse
Thanks man, but that app just lets me modify RAW pictures made by other cameras and then copied to the phone. I was looking for what the L Camera is supposed to do for the Nexus 5 and6 devices. Actually take pictures in RAW format with my N9005
posedatull said:
Thanks man, but that app just lets me modify RAW pictures made by other cameras and then copied to the phone. I was looking for what the L Camera is supposed to do for the Nexus 5 and6 devices. Actually take pictures in RAW format with my N9005
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Try this Camera FV-5
amk19 said:
Try this Camera FV-5
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Bought it, tried, said our device doesn't support raw. Asked for refund
posedatull said:
Bought it, tried, said our device doesn't support raw. Asked for refund
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh. Okay. Sorry buddy.
RAW format isn't going to do much about the quality of the photographs on a mobile phone with a sensor this small.
The sensors in smartphones cameras are the lowest possible tier. Using a digital negative isn't going to improve that.
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk 2
ShadowLea said:
RAW format isn't going to do much about the quality of the photographs on a mobile phone with a sensor this small.
The sensors in smartphones cameras are the lowest possible tier. Using a digital negative isn't going to improve that.
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk 2
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Click to collapse
That is simply not true. The ability to capture RAW images has immensely improved camera performance on other devices.
troy2062 said:
That is simply not true. The ability to capture RAW images has immensely improved camera performance on other devices.
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I sincerely hope you're joking.
Do you actually know, without looking it up first, what the RAW format is for?
It is a digital negative. It contains all the data the sensor is able to capture.
The resulting JPG's quality is entirely determined by the compression format used by the camera app.
Shooting in RAW allows you more freedom to tweak the image before turning it into a JPG. It does NOT improve the camera performance. It does not increase the sharpness, decrease the noise and reduce blurring.
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk 2
troy2062 said:
That is simply not true. The ability to capture RAW images has immensely improved camera performance on other devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sorry but this is just wrong.
Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk
ShadowLea said:
I sincerely hope you're joking.
Do you actually know, without looking it up first, what the RAW format is for?
It is a digital negative. It contains all the data the sensor is able to capture.
The resulting JPG's quality is entirely determined by the compression format used by the camera app.
Shooting in RAW allows you more freedom to tweak the image before turning it into a JPG. It does NOT improve the camera performance. It does not increase the sharpness, decrease the noise and reduce blurring.
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am a photography enthusiast and I do not appreciate your condescending tone. The XDA community at large has become far too hostile for my liking in recent years.
For all practical purposes, it does improve camera performance. When capturing in RAW using the camera2 API, you gain full manual control over shutter speed and ISO, as well as the ability to bypass the camera module's automated image processing. The resulting DNG is completely free of automated correction and you will have significantly more dynamic range to work with.
Despite the small sensor size of smartphone cameras, shooting RAW still yields significant benefits.
troy2062 said:
The XDA community at large has become far too hostile for my liking in recent years.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wish I could agree with you on this more. XDA is floating with kids nowadays, some of them haven't even hit puberty yet
troy2062 said:
I am a photography enthusiast and I do not appreciate your condescending tone. The XDA community at large has become far too hostile for my liking in recent years.
For all practical purposes, it does improve camera performance. When capturing in RAW using the camera2 API, you gain full manual control over shutter speed and ISO, as well as the ability to bypass the camera module's automated image processing. The resulting DNG is completely free of automated correction and you will have significantly more dynamic range to work with.
Despite the small sensor size of smartphone cameras, shooting RAW still yields significant benefits.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm glad you're not another one of those people who just heard a word used on a site and thinks they know everything. There are too many of those around, and they are the reason so many of the senior members are hostile towards others.
Particularly where the topic concerns photography. Too many bloody Instagrammers who think they're professionals. The most hilarious ones are the ones who don't even own a DSLR, but think their phone's camera can do the same thing. Or those idiots who complain about the camera quality, and leave the settings on auto.
Most apps have ISO control, even the stock camera.
Isn't that what I just said? "The resulting DNG is completely free of automated correction and you will have significantly more dynamic range to work with." is the exact same thing as "Shooting in RAW allows you more freedom to tweak the image before turning it into a JPG."
RAW mode only improves the resulting JPG. It can't improve the basic image. The lightbleed, stained glass details and oilpainting effect is a result of the sensorsize, not the JPG compression. The compression amplifies the problem, but it doesn't cause it.
And if an image is valuable enough to spend good time on taking the perfect shot, then taking it with a phone is a waste. If you're going to use BULB mode, you'll need a stationary. If you're going to drag the stationary along, might as well bring your DSLR and do it properly.
Was that condescending? I don't know, social cues aren't my area of expertise. But if you thought it was, you should've seen our Photo-Storytelling professor back at uni. That man made everyone afraid to even speak if there was a chance that your answer wasn't 100% accurate. Best class ever.
devilsdouble said:
Wish I could agree with you on this more. XDA is floating with kids nowadays, some of them haven't even hit puberty yet
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I've seen 9 year olds act like they know everything and tell the professional developers how they should do their job.
I've seen a 15 year old attempt to tell Chainfire how Root works. *snicker*. Too bad that thread was deleted, it was pure comedy gold. :laugh:
The major problem is that many of the offended users treat XDA as a helpdesk. It's not. It's a developers website. People have a responsibility to Google before they come here to ask their questions. If they neglect that responsiblity, the community doesn't take it very well. It's like going onto a website for car modders and asking how to put gas in a car at a station.
I don't think Samsung did rewrite the Camera HAL and therefore no complete camera2 api support which is a very bad thing.
We don't get a lot of the goodies especially the performance improvement.
Currently there's a 1 second shutter lag on 3rd party apps comparing to stock Samsung camera.
ShadowLea said:
RAW format isn't going to do much about the quality of the photographs on a mobile phone with a sensor this small.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
RAW format will allow you to develop better quality images than out-of-camera JPEGs.
In-phone postprocessing is limited by its no-so-great software and also processing power (it needs to be able to process a lot of pictures quickly). If you just take RAW files from the phone and run it through dedicated software (Lightroom, Aftershot Pro, Noise Ninja), I bet you'd get better images than what you OOC even without fine-tuning anything.
But the more importantly, it allows you to fine-tune a lot of stuff - fix white balance, exposition, find suitable contrast - besides creative control you will often get significantly better quality images.
ShadowLea said:
The sensors in smartphones cameras are the lowest possible tier. Using a digital negative isn't going to improve that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I used to take pictures with way worse cameras (like Canon A410) than camera on Note 3 and RAW often made a big difference. RAW is actually more useful on poor sensors (and/or poor post processors) where you need to squeeze the maximum from the picture. On the otherhand, e.g. my Fuji X100 has good enough (APS-C) sensor and very good JPEG engine that I very rarely feel the need to shoot RAW.
Personally I always shot in RAW on a dlsr as I always tweak my photos, the freedom to change tweak exposure/white balance has become a necessity. I can't stand processed jpegs anymore, especially when I don't know what the processing is really doing but I know it ain't doing a good job.
I got the Note 3 a few weeks back and have been wondering about RAW capability as it's something that it's important to me and others who want the extended freedom with their pictures. I have not yet jumped into Lollipop to test it out, but is the Camera2 API included in the lollipop roms available now? Is that API a lollipop standard? If so there's no reason our device shouldn't be able to shoot in RAW.
eddiee said:
RAW format will allow you to develop better quality images than out-of-camera JPEGs.
In-phone postprocessing is limited by its no-so-great software and also processing power (it needs to be able to process a lot of pictures quickly). If you just take RAW files from the phone and run it through dedicated software (Lightroom, Aftershot Pro, Noise Ninja), I bet you'd get better images than what you OOC even without fine-tuning anything.
But the more importantly, it allows you to fine-tune a lot of stuff - fix white balance, exposition, find suitable contrast - besides creative control you will often get significantly better quality images.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know how RAW works. I'm a professional photographer, I never use anything other than RAW. Which has some downsides.. I'm seriously running out of storage space on my harddrives
You're forgetting one very important factor. Given the size of RAW files, you can take about 40 pictures before you run out of space on your device, less if you have a decent amount of apps. L fixes the tight security that prevented apps to write to the SD in 4.4, but even then the space limitations are.. obnoxious. 13MP should translate to about 20-25MB per picture. Sure there are 128GB MicroSD cards, but unless you keep that clear of any other data (I have the entire LOTR Extended trilogy on there, for example.) it's still going to be a limitation. The 128GB cards are also quite pricey. I use 128GB SDcards in my camera, and on an average day I have to switch around at least once because it's full. And that's empty cards. Phone cards have data on them.
I used to take pictures with way worse cameras (like Canon A410) than camera on Note 3 and RAW often made a big difference. RAW is actually more useful on poor sensors (and/or poor post processors) where you need to squeeze the maximum from the picture. On the otherhand, e.g. my Fuji X100 has good enough (APS-C) sensor and very good JPEG engine that I very rarely feel the need to shoot RAW.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Evidently, as the A410 had dedicated camera hardware, as opposed to it just being an addition designed for random facebook pictures. And the JPEG conversion in 2005 was severely underdeveloped compared to modern day, and the hardware allows significantly more calculations. Even then the sensors in a modern-day cheap Compact camera are better than the ones in a smartphone, simply because those in smartphones are cut from the leftovers of the sensor plate.
Ah, a Fuji X100? It's one of the classic-style shell camera's, if I recall correctly. I played around with one a while ago, one of my colleagues is a hipster, so yea, he has one. :silly:
Funny little thing, pretty decent quality for something so small. It's not a system camera, though, so his arguments to convince me to get one were completely wasted. I'm a macro, landscape and architecture photographer; I need my different lenses.
My Canon EOS 70D can shoot in JPEG at ISO 6400 without noise. Doesn't mean I ever take it off the RAW+JPG setting. Even then I always edit my pictures in CameraRaw. JPG is good enough for preview, but I require PNG and TIFF for high-quality print. And shooting Macro and Landscape in JPG is simply a wasted effort. Those always require editing. So does architecture, because I'm too lazy to drag a technical camera along, so I have to do a lot of perspective correction. RAW is better suited for that.
There is one thing on which I do see the point of shooting in RAW with a smartphone. The lens is so utterly rubbish that the chromatic aberration is simply painful. Not to mention the overly obvious light flares if you try to shoot anything near a lightsource or white. It won't solve it, but at least you can tone it down a bit.
Still, I'd rather use my DSLR for those photographs. It also looks an awful lot less ridiculous than standing around with a smartphone taking pictures.
ShadowLea said:
You're forgetting one very important factor. Given the size of RAW files, you can take about 40 pictures before you run out of space on your device, less if you have a decent amount of apps. L fixes the tight security that prevented apps to write to the SD in 4.4, but even then the space limitations are.. obnoxious. 13MP should translate to about 20-25MB per picture.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
20-25 MB per RAW picture means 40-50 pictures per GB. Currently I have 9 GBs free on the phone and 21 GB on the card. That translates to about 1200-1500 pictures. That sounds quite OK.
Still, I don't plan to shoot exclusively RAW - there's no point in fiddling with RAW for simple point&shoot pictures. Personally I'd use RAW only when it's necessary - in challenging lighting conditions, important shots etc.
Storage won't be a problem for me.
ShadowLea said:
Evidently, as the A410 had dedicated camera hardware, as opposed to it just being an addition designed for random facebook pictures. And the JPEG conversion in 2005 was severely underdeveloped compared to modern day, and the hardware allows significantly more calculations. Even then the sensors in a modern-day cheap Compact camera are better than the ones in a smartphone, simply because those in smartphones are cut from the leftovers of the sensor plate.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
JPEG conversion is bad in a lot of cameras even today (although Samsung's JPEG engine seems to be one of the better ones, in smartphones). The point was that RAW is useful both for good and bad cameras (sensors).
ShadowLea said:
Still, I'd rather use my DSLR for those photographs. It also looks an awful lot less ridiculous than standing around with a smartphone taking pictures.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Best camera is the one you have with you. DSLR is too big for me to drag around. That's why I bought Fuji - it's quite small and light while having very good IQ. Actually even the Fuji is too big and heavy (especially for the neck) on the longer hikes (30km) - sometimes I just leave it at home and go just with the phone. I eagerly await phone camera improvements (including RAW support) so I can leave my larger cameras at home.
eddiee said:
20-25 MB per RAW picture means 40-50 pictures per GB. Currently I have 9 GBs free on the phone and 21 GB on the card. That translates to about 1200-1500 pictures. That sounds quite OK.
Still, I don't plan to shoot exclusively RAW - there's no point in fiddling with RAW for simple point&shoot pictures. Personally I'd use RAW only when it's necessary - in challenging lighting conditions, important shots etc.
Storage won't be a problem for me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You've got a lot more free space than me. I've got 1GB on the phone left, and 2GB on my MicroSD (Out of 128, yea... The disadvantage of 1080p series. >.<)
Oh I've seen people do it; shoot in RAW then put it on Instagram. :laugh:
JPEG conversion is bad in a lot of cameras even today (although Samsung's JPEG engine seems to be one of the better ones, in smartphones). The point was that RAW is useful both for good and bad cameras (sensors).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well yes. But it still can't fix the problems caused by the bad sensor. It can decrease them because JPG conversion aplifies them, but it can't fix them. RAW can't fix hardware faults. (Oh if only it could..)
Best camera is the one you have with you.
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I both agree and disagree. Any camera is better than no camera, true.
But I had an EOS 500D before this, and it simply made bad pictures. For memories and snapshots the quality matters little (And it may even add to the photo), but it had a similar problem as the smartphones: it was a low-tier model and had a cheap sensor. All the editing in RAW couldn't fix the data that simply wasn't collected, and it can't add detail that isn't there. The same issue applies to smartphones.
(And before anyone tries to, don't even think of throwing out "The quality of the photograph is determined by the photographer". I hate that saying, and it's only ever said by those who can't afford a decent camera. That saying applies to the quality of the content, not the image quality. Someone usually ends up using that argument in any photography discussion, so consider this a pre-emptive strike.)
DSLR is too big for me to drag around. That's why I bought Fuji - it's quite small and light while having very good IQ. Actually even the Fuji is too big and heavy (especially for the neck) on the longer hikes (30km) - sometimes I just leave it at home and go just with the phone. I eagerly await phone camera improvements (including RAW support) so I can leave my larger cameras at home.
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It can get a bit heavy, yes. It's why I always use a backpack. True, it's still about 30-40 kilos, but as a backpack that's easily manageable. I've tried taking photo's with my phone on my trips, but I always end up wanting my macro, telezoom or wideangle lens. But I'm the weird one who stands around taking photographs of a floral arrangement while everyone else is photographing the Colosseum, and who takes a macro photograph of the leg of the Eiffel Tower, but not the tower itself. So perhaps I'm a bad example of the average photographer. :laugh: :silly:
But I had an EOS 500D before this, and it simply made bad pictures. For memories and snapshots the quality matters little (And it may even add to the photo), but it had a similar problem as the smartphones: it was a low-tier model and had a cheap sensor. All the editing in RAW couldn't fix the data that simply wasn't collected, and it can't add detail that isn't there. The same issue applies to smartphones.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When shooting raw, images should be taken with post processing in mind and exposures set to take the most amount of the important data whatever it may be. Thus a picture looking good or bad in camera is totally irrelevant. The 500D takes good pictures, it's no 5D mk3 but good enough for semi-pro depending on what kind of stuff is being shot with it. A good lens on a lowish tier camera goes a long way, much more so than a good sensor with a mediocre lens.
As topic name says, sony wants to know if there is demand to support "RAW" format for Xperia Line in future lollipop release.
You can read more here
http://www.xperiablog.net/2015/04/2...capture-in-future-if-there-is-popular-demand/
And you can request it on official sony forum
http://talk.sonymobile.com/t5/Software-Updates/Camera2-API/m-p/974754#M21577
What is RAW exactly ?
I read it a couple pf times but i am not sure what it is.
Roughly speaking it's an image file. RAW is commonly used by photographers and they have more detail than your average jpeg. But RAW files user alot of memory.
I don't care for it tbh. Jpeg files on my Z2 are big enough when I go full 20 Mpixel.
Honestly I don't care about RAW either. But I want them to implement camera2 api.
I hope we can choose between jpeg or raw if it becomes available not just one
RJASSI21 said:
I hope we can choose between jpeg or raw if it becomes available not just one
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There's no way in hell they'd set RAW as default. RAW is practically unusable without editing, and takes a lot of space. If they implement it it's definitely gonna be optional.
Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk
The thing is, if they add support for RAW photo's, there's a good chance the camera mode will get updated from legacy mode to either limited or full mode. To find out what that would mean, head over to this link. (it also gives an overview of which devices support which camera2 mode) And here is a quote for the lazy ones:
Camera2 Supported Hardware Levels
FULL: all that’s required but not everything
30fps operation at sensor resolution preferred, 20fps required for at least uncompressed YUV output: useful for burst capture and computational photography
Per frame control
Manual sensor control: Like exposure time, ISO gain
Manual post-processing control: color rendition, contrast/gamma curve, noise reduction
Arbitrary cropping, in size and coordinates
At least 3 processed non-stalling output streams formats: like YUV 4:2:0 used for preview.
The ability to list and auto-configure output formats according to a list of supported streams
Note that FULL does not require RAW capture nor valid metadata and calibration profile for the DNG writer.
LIMITED: partial support, your mileage may vary
Cameras describing themselves as limited have some of the Camera2 capabilities but not all of them, and not all the ones required for the FULL supported hardware level either.
The reason would be either because the camera module or its Image Signal Processor lacks some of the required capabilities, or because the manufacturer didn’t implement them so they become available in Camera2 API.
LEGACY: a wrapper around the old Camera API
Legacy Camera2 means only really the historic Camera API is implemented. But for good measure, Lollipop adds a layer over it so modern camera applications do not have to implement two separate ways to control the imaging systems.
Each camera (usually back and front) has its own capability set. For instance, Nexus 5 hardware support level is FULL for the back and LIMITED for the front.
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Right now we're on legacy, which means we don't get any of the fancy new camera2 api features. If Sony updates it, it should be relatively easy to add more features, like manual focus for example. (which I would love to have, personally)
It comes down to this:
Even if you don't care about RAW photography, it's still wise to request it and maybe request support for full mode because that will get you a lot of other cool features as well.
I DO NOT need it.
It's a plus point, but definitely not a necessity.
Raw it's a optional feature, but the other features of camera2api are usefull. We can use finally the sony's sensors at max power I want camera2api and RAW
I think it's rude they are even asking for our opinion. Google published it and Sony excluded it from the original code and now is asking us if we want it.
Personally, it's not as important as - say- a SMS software or not a must but still, why take something out?
Sent from my D6503 using XDA Free mobile app
_delice_doluca_ said:
I think it's rude they are even asking for our opinion. Google published it and Sony excluded it from the original code and now is asking us if we want it.
Personally, it's not as important as - say- a SMS software or not a must but still, why take something out?
Sent from my D6503 using XDA Free mobile app
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At least they lending a listening ear. Most OEMs, including Samsung, excluded it. Industry standard.
Well at least Sony think about the people and asking it, we cant say that from other manufractures
Id love to see raw support
Seeing a camera with raw vs without is a big difference
I want
LAKAME_MAN said:
There's no way in hell they'd set RAW as default. RAW is practically unusable without editing, and takes a lot of space. If they implement it it's definitely gonna be optional.
Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk
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Thank god for that!
not a need, but definitly a want
Absolutely a need. I will not buy another device which doesn't support raw capture, now that it is readily available for manufacturers to add.
I would definitely wanna see RAW support since it significantly improves the quality of pictures on Android phones with Lollipop..
Defently CameraApi2 would be useful, now I can take really good pictures with manual but with that extra features.
Sony camera will rock!
Guys, even if you would not use it, just request it as many others would use. Please help the community.
Sony wants to know if you want Camera RAW
Tell them you want it: http://talk.sonymobile.com/t5/Software-Updates/Camera2-API/td-p/974742/highlight/false
IMO, it's not about RAW files, it's about API access to RAW so that developers have the option to do better image processing than Sony.
OR - Sony could just implement better processing on their own and we wouldn't have to worry about hunting for 3rd party apps to do what this phone should have done out of the box.
PuffDaddy_d said:
OR - Sony could just implement better processing on their own and we wouldn't have to worry about hunting for 3rd party apps to do what this phone should have done out of the box.
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The thing is, they won't. But implementing the new api doesn't take as much work as writing better image processing.
Sent from my D5833 using XDA Free mobile app
I posted in that thread. Here's hoping they do it.
Thanks for the hint to that thread. I`m also one of those, who were very disappointed that Sony didn`t implemented the RAW capture feature. But there seems to be hope
For me Samsung phones has the best hardware out there. But it is still missing something. I have been wondering why their devices have no auto exposure on the focused area just like many android devices have it now. Although I can see their S6 edge plus has it now but im not totally satisfied with it.
So my question is the auto exposure(adjusting the exposure of the photo to the area you what to receive more light to have a picture perfect) is a hardware or software limitation? if it is software probably there are third party apps out there can you guys tell me what it is. I have been using Camera FV5 but it still does not do that.
crazyraiga said:
For me Samsung phones has the best hardware out there. But it is still missing something. I have been wondering why their devices have no auto exposure on the focused area just like many android devices have it now. Although I can see their S6 edge plus has it now but im not totally satisfied with it.
So my question is the auto exposure(adjusting the exposure of the photo to the area you what to receive more light to have a picture perfect) is a hardware or software limitation? if it is software probably there are third party apps out there can you guys tell me what it is. I have been using Camera FV5 but it still does not do that.
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Click to collapse
Are you talking a RAW format output file that you can edit/manipulate through Lightroom/PS or any third party software? If I am correct...good luck with that. Myself is using camera FV5 but figured out that what is the point and use of having a raw file coming out from this phone sensors...almost like useless. I rather side to the JPG output and put everything on auto and let the phone decide. Just imagine, Even until this day where modern dslr's, mirrorless are coming out but still having problem with noise coming out from those cameras (raw files). A micro four-thirds sensor has more noise compare to APS-C's, Apsc raw produce noise more than FULL Frame, Medium Format are less noise compare to Full frame. My point is.... The camera sensor of samsung phones are wayyyyy.... smaller than four-thirds therefore we can't expect that it will produce a better raw files, plus phones fixed lens. If there are raw files coming out from those sensors might not be usable compare to DSLR's. Even in Fuji and Sony mirrorless nowadays, specifically the XT-10 and A6000 if you go down lower to their native ISO probably not a good thing.
In short... Camera phones sensors not designed for RAW files or not yet ready maybe in the future. I am a portrait and landscape photographer (not a PRO) and uses my phone from time to time when my crappy old dslr go nuts Like you, I would love to see this feature fully functional in the future
edit: Camera FV5
You can manipulate the settings of your FV5 app by going to Menu - Shooting Utilities and click the last one, touch to capture. Make sure you switch ON your HISTOGRAM so that you can expose properly on your shot, then change your Light Metering Mode to the second one which Center Weighed (no label), That way you can expose your shot the way you want. You can also customized the exposure time by choosing the S mode and select custom for open shutter time. Kept in mind that What you See is What you Get on this app for it will give you JPG file. For me I really rely more on HISTOGRAM, if the native camera of samsung has the histogram ability then I will probably use it more. Cheers!
You'll probably see this feature in the Galaxy Camera lineup, but I doubt it'll make is way into the regular smartphone lineup.....why would it, they want us to buy their GC range too......
http://i.imgur.com/rVnFwJM.jpg
agasagas said:
Are you talking a RAW format output file that you can edit/manipulate through Lightroom/PS or any third party software? If I am correct...good luck with that. Myself is using camera FV5 but figured out that what is the point and use of having a raw file coming out from this phone sensors...almost like useless. I rather side to the JPG output and put everything on auto and let the phone decide. Just imagine, Even until this day where modern dslr's, mirrorless are coming out but still having problem with noise coming out from those cameras (raw files). A micro four-thirds sensor has more noise compare to APS-C's, Apsc raw produce noise more than FULL Frame, Medium Format are less noise compare to Full frame. My point is.... The camera sensor of samsung phones are wayyyyy.... smaller than four-thirds therefore we can't expect that it will produce a better raw files, plus phones fixed lens. If there are raw files coming out from those sensors might not be usable compare to DSLR's. Even in Fuji and Sony mirrorless nowadays, specifically the XT-10 and A6000 if you go down lower to their native ISO probably not a good thing.
In short... Camera phones sensors not designed for RAW files or not yet ready maybe in the future. I am a portrait and landscape photographer (not a PRO) and uses my phone from time to time when my crappy old dslr go nuts Like you, I would love to see this feature fully functional in the future
edit: Camera FV5
You can manipulate the settings of your FV5 app by going to Menu - Shooting Utilities and click the last one, touch to capture. Make sure you switch ON your HISTOGRAM so that you can expose properly on your shot, then change your Light Metering Mode to the second one which Center Weighed (no label), That way you can expose your shot the way you want. You can also customized the exposure time by choosing the S mode and select custom for open shutter time. Kept in mind that What you See is What you Get on this app for it will give you JPG file. For me I really rely more on HISTOGRAM, if the native camera of samsung has the histogram ability then I will probably use it more. Cheers!
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Click to collapse
I don't take raw format. I just want a point-shoot-upload phone camera with good balanced light and everything(like what iphone does so as many android devices out there). just to be clear I am not comparing phone camera sensors to dslr sensors because those are very different. im no a pro photographer and I know phone cameras are not designed for that. I just want a better(satisfying) result from what hardware it possessed.
keithross39 said:
You'll probably see this feature in the Galaxy Camera lineup, but I doubt it'll make is way into the regular smartphone lineup.....why would it, they want us to buy their GC range too......
http://i.imgur.com/rVnFwJM.jpg
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I see. so it is a hardware limitation?
I never said anything about hardware limitations......
All I said was, that for Samsung, it wouldn't make financial sense to include every camera function on a smartphone, when they have other, more fully featured devices that they are selling too.....
http://i.imgur.com/rVnFwJM.jpg
keithross39 said:
I never said anything about hardware limitations......
All I said was, that for Samsung, it wouldn't make financial sense to include every camera function on a smartphone, when they have other, more fully featured devices that they are selling too.....
http://i.imgur.com/rVnFwJM.jpg
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so if it is not hardware limitation there should be an app out there. I can other OEMs that uses either Samsung or Sony sensors for there camera and theirs work like a charm. but how come Samsung does not have it. atleast some devs are making that app.
I am no dev nor a programmer but I think it would not be that hard to develop a camera that works like other OEM devices.
Yeah....your best bet is a 3rd party independent app, because I can't see Samsung implementing these features on a standard smartphone. It wouldn't make business sense for them to do so.....not if they want to continue selling their Galaxy Camera range.......
http://i.imgur.com/rVnFwJM.jpg
keithross39 said:
Yeah....your best bet is a 3rd party independent app, because I can't see Samsung implementing these features on a standard smartphone. It wouldn't make business sense for them to do so.....not if they want to continue selling their Galaxy Camera range.......
http://i.imgur.com/rVnFwJM.jpg
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yeah. tried every other third party apps out there can't find one that suits to my preferences. tried using custom roms, ported other rom but no luck for me yet.
they should be implementing that one especially on their flag carrier series. because every other android devices shifted to that camera functionality. they already implemented it in their s6 edge+ was hoping that upon mashmallow update they can implement it in s5.
BTW can you help me find that app? where I can just tap to anywhere and the exposure compensation for the whole image is adjusted to where I touched it.
Don't have any idea of actual, specific apps......If I want ultimate control over my image capturing, then I'll use one of my DSLR's......
But here's a good place to start looking....
http://thefluffyheads.com/techie-tony/5-android-camera-dslr-apps
http://i.imgur.com/rVnFwJM.jpg
I usually just use HDR on the Samsung camera which gives good exposure across the image. If you don't want to use that, in the settings is an option "metering modes" which let's you pick how the exposure is selected. I haven't checked to see if spot metering is based off the centre or the focus point, though.
keithross39 said:
Don't have any idea of actual, specific apps......If I want ultimate control over my image capturing, then I'll use one of my DSLR's......
But here's a good place to start looking....
http://thefluffyheads.com/techie-tony/5-android-camera-dslr-apps
http://i.imgur.com/rVnFwJM.jpg
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Click to collapse
I know smartphone cameras are not as good as DSLRs. just want a little bit more control in my device's camera. it is just so sad that we have a lot of best developers here in xda. but they are more focused on custom roms, exploits(root), ports and mods. I guess devs are not that much interested in other stuffs.
arghness said:
I usually just use HDR on the Samsung camera which gives good exposure across the image. If you don't want to use that, in the settings is an option "metering modes" which let's you pick how the exposure is selected. I haven't checked to see if spot metering is based off the centre or the focus point, though.
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Click to collapse
HDR is only good for outdoors and well lit surroundings. and metering modes does not give me the satisfaction. probably need to buy mid range smartphones with good cameras and fingerprint scanner.
http://www.sonymobile.com/global-en/xperia/technologies/camera/
Shutter speed control
Use maximum shutter speed (1/4000) for sharp images of moving subjects. Or try a slower speed (1 sec.) for a motion blur effect.
Manual focus
Decide your precise focal point. Bring the furthest away object into focus and defocus the foreground, or vice versa.
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Click to collapse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w_5SJtLLYs (video review of the camera in Xperia XZ by Btekt)
Still, the least min shutter speed from all manufacturers - HTC 2 sec, Samsung 10 sec, LG and OnePlus 30 sec. but the fact that Sony finally implemented that API is great!
Hopefully not only the XZ will get this and we will see updated cameras in older models.
sony fanboy here but still...1 sec? and samsung has 10 seconds shutter time? Is this what sony calls "innovation"?????
I wonder if they will update it with a longer time. I would like that.
I wouldn't call it "full" since it still doesn't have raw capture.
furkandeger said:
I wouldn't call it "full" since it still doesn't have raw capture.
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With This 100% I agree. Is this really full manual control? I mean Sony is a master in RAW imagining. Their alpha series got the best RAW as far as I believe.
actually i agree with the decision to not add raw. For now it looks like a useless feature on a smartphone to me. just a memory eater. Not even all the compact cameras has it and most of them make better photos than a smartphone. Raw files are mostly for professionals and they use professional cameras. And finally shutter speed control! that was the only feature i felt was missing on xperia phones
I would like t see RAW. I shoot it exclusively on all my cameras, so I would use it on my phone. You can use it or not, so there should be no concerns about space. Space is so cheap these days anyway.
The problem IMO is not RAW, it is that Sony is really lazy about adding the features from their new devices on the older ones(that support them). Remember 4K and timeshift video? Z1 didn't get them from the Z2 although they were fully supported by the hw. I think Sony will do the same with limited/full camera2 api support....
(would be very glad to see Sony disproving me)
I understand it's a marketing trick to force users to buy the new model, but supported users are happy users, and happy users will have their next device Sony again, which IMO is far better strategy
Finally,
Can anyone confirm whether ISO can be changed at 23MP and if Steadyshot works with still photos? Recombu seems to show it working in Superior Auto mode but the video isn't very clear with it.
I think the Z5 had it on its original software but after the camera app was updated in November it no longer had it, even though Sony claimed on their forum that Steadyshot is on by default.
FYL21 said:
Can anyone confirm whether ISO can be changed at 23MP and if Steadyshot works with still photos? Recombu seems to show it working in Superior Auto mode but the video isn't very clear with it.
I think the Z5 had it on its original software but after the camera app was updated in November it no longer had it, even though Sony claimed on their forum that Steadyshot is on by default.
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Click to collapse
Unfortunately ISO cannot be changed at 23MPx.
Moreover, even for lower resolution, it is not possible to adjust few options at the same time, like when you change the shutter speed, ISO and HDR etc are unavailable... They really need to fix this issueto allow us better manual control, and not only 1 option at the time + support higher resolutions and 4K videos.
4K is really biased, non of ne implemented technologies like 5 axis stabilization are supported in 4K.
I think Sony just added its old 4K app without updating it to combine with new features, sadly
decomposed said:
Unfortunately ISO cannot be changed at 23MPx.
Moreover, even for lower resolution, it is not possible to adjust few options at the same time, like when you change the shutter speed, ISO and HDR etc are unavailable... They really need to fix this issueto allow us better manual control, and not only 1 option at the time + support higher resolutions and 4K videos.
4K is really biased, non of ne implemented technologies like 5 axis stabilization are supported in 4K.
I think Sony just added its old 4K app without updating it to combine with new features, sadly
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Not implementing camera RAW in 2017 is close to a deal breaker, sony. Implement the full camera 2.0 API with raw support asap...
peppepop said:
Not implementing camera RAW in 2017 is close to a deal breaker, sony. Implement the full camera 2.0 API with raw support asap...
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Yeah, it may be a complete deal breaker for me.
---------- Post added at 12:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 AM ----------
peppepop said:
Not implementing camera RAW in 2017 is close to a deal breaker, sony. Implement the full camera 2.0 API with raw support asap...
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Click to collapse
Anyone know if the new camera (in the XZs and XZ premium ) supports raw ?
Fred98TJ said:
Yeah, it may be a complete deal breaker for me.
---------- Post added at 12:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 AM ----------
Anyone know if the new camera (in the XZs and XZ premium ) supports raw ?
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I sure hope so, it is supposed to have more camera properties than ever before, even went down to 19mpix from 23 to have more light sensitivity for the camera. Furthermore, if anyone thinks RAW (which is already there in the Android source code) isn't necessary - well just don't use it then.
It's like saying "I don't need a car that goes above 75 mph, so it's unnecessary to implement"