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Hello,
Based on a post on one of the Sony Mobile forums:
Tobbe Swe
"Just found something interresting.. It´s from the Xperia Z1 Review Guide
This is also Sony’s most creative camera to date. In addition to the next version of Sony’s
Superior Auto Mode (designed to make it easier for casual photographers to adjust camera
settings for their surroundings), Xperia Z1’s camera will also come with a full set of manual
settings for more advanced photographers. This will enable manual control of shutter speed and
aperture settings as well as manual over and under exposure control."
Out of curiousity, I dug up that particular article. Just do a google search for http://blogs.sonymobile.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Xperia_Z1_review_guide.pdf
After reading that guide, I can't help but think that Sony shipped the Xperia Z1 even without having optimized Camera software! It says that users can be able to manually control shutter speed and aperture settings but currently we can't. I'm hoping this is not just a mistake for the sake of marketing but actual features that will come in the (hopefully not too soon) future!
Let's hope that 4.3 will bring lots of updates especially to the camera and camera app.
bloodfire1004 said:
Hello,
Based on a post on one of the Sony Mobile forums:
Tobbe Swe
"Just found something interresting.. It´s from the Xperia Z1 Review Guide
This is also Sony’s most creative camera to date. In addition to the next version of Sony’s
Superior Auto Mode (designed to make it easier for casual photographers to adjust camera
settings for their surroundings), Xperia Z1’s camera will also come with a full set of manual
settings for more advanced photographers. This will enable manual control of shutter speed and
aperture settings as well as manual over and under exposure control."
Out of curiousity, I dug up that particular article. Just do a google search for http://blogs.sonymobile.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Xperia_Z1_review_guide.pdf
After reading that guide, I can't help but think that Sony shipped the Xperia Z1 even without having optimized Camera software! It says that users can be able to manually control shutter speed and aperture settings but currently we can't. I'm hoping this is not just a mistake for the sake of marketing but actual features that will come in the (hopefully not too soon) future!
Let's hope that 4.3 will bring lots of updates especially to the camera and camera app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1
I read through a bit and I noticed " Wet Finger Tracking". I guess they forgot that one. It's utterly impossible for me to use it when wet or in light rain. :/
Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk
Daelyn said:
I read through a bit and I noticed " Wet Finger Tracking". I guess they forgot that one. It's utterly impossible for me to use it when wet or in light rain. :/
Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
my phone works perfectly well in light rain (just tested yesterday), haven't tested on heavy one though.
bloodfire1004 said:
Hello,
Based on a post on one of the Sony Mobile forums:
Tobbe Swe
"Just found something interresting.. It´s from the Xperia Z1 Review Guide
This is also Sony’s most creative camera to date. In addition to the next version of Sony’s
Superior Auto Mode (designed to make it easier for casual photographers to adjust camera
settings for their surroundings), Xperia Z1’s camera will also come with a full set of manual
settings for more advanced photographers. This will enable manual control of shutter speed and
aperture settings as well as manual over and under exposure control."
Out of curiousity, I dug up that particular article. Just do a google search for http://blogs.sonymobile.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Xperia_Z1_review_guide.pdf
After reading that guide, I can't help but think that Sony shipped the Xperia Z1 even without having optimized Camera software! It says that users can be able to manually control shutter speed and aperture settings but currently we can't. I'm hoping this is not just a mistake for the sake of marketing but actual features that will come in the (hopefully not too soon) future!
Let's hope that 4.3 will bring lots of updates especially to the camera and camera app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Now that's called as finding something.
Hope it is true in near future.
I just hope they are really committed to improve it post launch, unlike many companies that just take your money and ran.
Gitaroo said:
I just hope they are really committed to improve it post launch, unlike many companies that just take your money and ran.
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Looking at the big increase in camera quality with the new firmware why did Sony release it with the camera software like this?
Mind going by my past experience with their Android handsets this isn't the first time they appear to have done this.
Super Chimp said:
Looking at the big increase in camera quality with the new firmware why did Sony release it with the camera software like this?
Mind going by my past experience with their Android handsets this isn't the first time they appear to have done this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I woud hazard a guess that the phone had to be out by a certain date to be competitive with the other major brands, and the firmware version at the time was deemed good enough for most people. Imagine if Sony had held off launching the Z1 just because the camera firmware wasn't finalized? People would be complaining that Sony was late to the party. This time Sony was directly in fight with everyone else. A shame things couldn't be finalized in time, but I imagine they'll strive to improve upon this sort of thing in the future.
Either put out the phone on time and fix it later but at least get a user base and be novel or wait until every software aspect is perfect (which is impossible, otherwise updates would never be necessary) and be late to the game and lose a lot of users.
I yet have to see the first phone that works exactly as advertised or planned in all aspects.
Still Sony did good with z1. Everything work and stable. Looking forward to further improvements. The worst in my experience was galaxy note 1. It came with very buggy firmware causing phone to crash a lot. And firmware update was slow. In contrast Sony is updating z1 very fast.
Sent from my C6902 using xda app-developers app
I found Z1 firmware (534) very good and I really hope they will work on camera software and that we'll have even greater device
We have awesome hardware, now we need just a bit better software...
Thumb up for Sony this time...
If we compare this to XS firmware and time that we waited for 4.1.2 - it's very big step forward
I'm guessing manufacturers finally bump into wall and realised it's time to give better software and user experience - we have hardware we can't even use fully...it's time for more often updates and faster ROM releases...
It's time for KitKat to come and we can still see that devices are released powered by 4.2.2....
Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk
We now have Android 4.4 KitKat with an improved camera surely, but still real exposure control is nowhere to be found. I'm really surprised I hadn't heard anything about this before, so +1 from me. Here's to hoping the Xperia Z2 will get it through an upgrade some time, and it'll be ported to the Z1. I love how the two devices are so similar :cyclops:
Has anyone contacted Sony about this claim? Could we make them include this in a software upgrade? As of now it looks like they've lied to us to get more buyers, which is certainly not legally permitted. It's definitely a legal document on the Xperia Z1's camera capabilities, with Sony's logo all over the pages and since it's downloadable from the official Sony website as well.
"... This is also Sony’s most creative camera to date. In addition to the next version of Sony’s
Superior Auto Mode (designed to make it easier for casual photographers to adjust camera
settings for their surroundings), Xperia Z1’s camera will also come with a full set of manual
settings for more advanced photographers. This will enable manual control of shutter speed and
aperture settings as well as manual over and under exposure control."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Underlined is what we have.
Bold is what we need.
We should do something about this.
It´s funny how you found my post on the Sony Mobile forum and yes the Xperia Z1 isn´t up to par with the settings talked about in the papers. I have talked with SonyMobile here in Sweden and the only reply i got is that the ISO settings in M mode changed the shutter speed and the never said anything about the manual apature no matter how hard i showed them evidence from the white paper/manual. The Z1 camera can performe alot better then it is now on 4.4 kitkat. It doesn´t seem like they want to give the Z1 better camera capabilitys.... They are Sony, one of the best camera makers in the world and they leave us with a top of the range phone with a awesome camera on paper with all the exellent hardware but in real life it´s not up to standard when it comes to picture quality!!!!!
TobbeSwe said:
It´s funny how you found my post on the Sony Mobile forum and yes the Xperia Z1 isn´t up to par with the settings talked about in the papers. I have talked with SonyMobile here in Sweden and the only reply i got is that the ISO settings in M mode changed the shutter speed and the never said anything about the manual apature no matter how hard i showed them evidence from the white paper/manual. The Z1 camera can performe alot better then it is now on 4.4 kitkat. It doesn´t seem like they want to give the Z1 better camera capabilitys.... They are Sony, one of the best camera makers in the world and they leave us with a top of the range phone with a awesome camera on paper with all the exellent hardware but in real life it´s not up to standard when it comes to picture quality!!!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's always that darn software side of Sony. Their hardware is truly amazing. Best in its class. But all the time the software lags behind. Previously with updates for devices, then the camera with the Xperia S to Xperia Z with too much oversharpening, and now just not giving us what the Xperia Z1 should be capable of. I'm expecting a major software update just after the Z2's release. If that doesn't happen, I'll have to put all my trust on the amazing developers we have here at XDA. Can someone make a camera application capable of setting exposure <in seconds> manually (instead of relative exposure, also called 'compensation'), and perhaps even manual focus? I wish I could, but I've only just started programming with my studies and it'll take a long time before I'll finally be able to make Android applications. I don't even know where to start :silly:
i have read somewhere that manual camera focus/shutter speed etc are not still implemented in 4.4.2 Google android code. samsung use their self-made packages in their camera series.. if so we may have to wait.. seriously i miss sonyericsson cybershots.. that is one hell of camera they put on mobile when the other manufactures are still thinking to research ... but now sony is far behind in camera..
showlyshah said:
i have read somewhere that manual camera focus/shutter speed etc are not still implemented in 4.4.2 Google android code. samsung use their self-made packages in their camera series.. if so we may have to wait.. seriously i miss sonyericsson cybershots.. that is one hell of camera they put on mobile when the other manufactures are still thinking to research ... but now sony is far behind in camera..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
those old cybershots camera probably use true camera parts to process their picture taken, unlike now they rely on the SoC. Even though Sony got the camera team to do the camera for Z1, but they have no experience using ARM processors like S800 to do camera processing probably.
TobbeSwe said:
It´s funny how you found my post on the Sony Mobile forum and yes the Xperia Z1 isn´t up to par with the settings talked about in the papers. I have talked with SonyMobile here in Sweden and the only reply i got is that the ISO settings in M mode changed the shutter speed and the never said anything about the manual apature no matter how hard i showed them evidence from the white paper/manual. The Z1 camera can performe alot better then it is now on 4.4 kitkat. It doesn´t seem like they want to give the Z1 better camera capabilitys.... They are Sony, one of the best camera makers in the world and they leave us with a top of the range phone with a awesome camera on paper with all the exellent hardware but in real life it´s not up to standard when it comes to picture quality!!!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've asked about manual control as well in a thread or 2 on here and again answers are various.
2 scenarios why manual control is stated in this document
http://blogs.sonymobile.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Xperia_Z1_review_guide.pdf
First, the document was not made by Sony but more likely a marketing firm which just received information from Sony regarding the camera, ie manual control etc etc and thought "hey manual control? must be like dslr probably can change aperture and shutter of course, duh". Sony has known to outsource for marketing and such firms can get things wrong.
Second scenario, Sony made the document, but full manual control settings didn't make the development cut and were not included in the final model but the text remained, this is probably less likely but who knows.
Next, aperture control on a smart phone with a FIXED f/2 aperture? Even Sony knows that this is not possible not matter how you bend the physics, fixed aperture is fixed aperture and if you don't have aperture blades (diaphragm) on the lens, then you are stuck at f/2. I don't think a small lens like the one on the Z1/Z2 can fit small enough aperture blades, don't think miniaturization has made it possible yet. Therefore I feel again, marketing firm messed this up by adding aperture control.
Next is shutter speed, hit and miss here, can we control it? kind of, if you set it to sports mode in 8MP mode, you will get a much faster shutter speed in order to capture the sporty action or fasting moving options. If you set it to one of the SCN modes, don't recall which one, perhaps night scene, you can slow down the shutter to 0.77s. In other modes you have 1/8 or 1/4s of a shutter speed, which is manual shutter control but not directly, the phone sets it, but if you choose the right SCN mode, you can "choose" shutter speed. I know this is not the same as actually selecting a shutter speed but it's the best we have so far.
I believe (I may be wrong, probably am) by adjusting the EV you can force the different shutter speed. Doing a quick test, at ISO200 and EV+2 and -2, there shutter speed was the same in both, 1/8. Bumping up iso to 800, +2, speed was 1/8, at -2 speed was 1/16. So there is a slight difference. So higher iso will give faster shutter speed it seems as not to overexpose the image. This is what is probably driving the shutter speed on the camera.
At higher iso, 8MP, +2 and iso3200, 1/8 still, at iso5000 (was set at 3200), -2, it was 1/125, so the phone is doing some shutter control clearly, and it is somewhere in the software to control it, but no real manual control. Which brings up the final point mentioned to me by a user on here whom I can't recall the name of (apologies), there is no apk or code in android currently to control exposure time, but clearly something is happening here on the Sony camera, so either Sony wrote the software or apk or black magic is happening.
For those wondering about the camera's from samsung running android and have shutter control, from what was mentioned on this forum, samsung added the necessary software controls for such tricks.
Manual focus would be hard, not sure how it would be done even, probably on screen, best to just leave it to the autofocus.
There is mention of a new sensor for the Z3, 1/2.4 size, same megapixel count, probably to make the device smaller, but what would be better is to have hybrid autofocus on the sensor, like the new A6000 has, contrast detection and phase detection to speed things up. Having seen various videos of the new A6000 auto focusing, I will admit, this should be the next step for Sony and the sensor for the Z3.
Samsung has phase detection on the S5, not sure if it is hybrid, but if anyone can pull it off, it is Sony, but who knows.
tl;dr, version, manual control exists to some degree but not directly, probably a marketing firm made the pdf with the information and screwed up.
Gitaroo said:
those old cybershots camera probably use true camera parts to process their picture taken, unlike now they rely on the SoC. Even though Sony got the camera team to do the camera for Z1, but they have no experience using ARM processors like S800 to do camera processing probably.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I feel this is the issue, and perhaps in a future phone, probably not z3, maybe z4/z5, a dedicated bionz chip will be used and it will be more like a real point and shoot.
Has Sony produced any documentation to detail each manual SCN mode? That would be really useful. Some are fairly self explanatory but by no means all.
In other modes you have 1/8 or 1/4s of a shutter speed, which is manual shutter control but not directly, the phone sets it, but if you choose the right SCN mode, you can "choose" shutter speed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would have loved night mode if it weren't for the fact that scenes cannot be used in 20 megapixel mode. Although some may argue that many pixels aren't necessary, I just want to make the most out of my photographs. I want to be able to crop. Which brings me to the even more important point about night mode: even the 8 megapixel shot isn't detailed. And why? Because the shutter speed is still too high. Does anyone remember the Sony Ericsson Satio 12 megapixel cameraphone of how many years ago was it? It could take stunning low light shots due to a very long exposure, the one part where its camera even beat the Nokia N8. Now the Lumia 1020 can do 4 second exposure with a larger aperture afaik. And what does the Z1 do? Far from a second. And it's not even possible to manually set.
Look, I absolutely love the Z1's camera in bright lights with ISO-50. But when the lights go out, the camera quality is poor considered it's supposed to be a flagship cameraphone. Oh and did I mention that exposure compensation does not affect anything at ISO-50 on my device? Dark images due to low ISO aren't getting any brighter while I'm expecting the exposure to prolong when I set the compensation higher...
Here are some details I uncovered in regards to the camera of Moto G:
Camera specification:
- 5mpxl
- f/2.4
- 4mm focal length.
Most definitely a small sensor, (< 1/3.2' ), likely 1/4'. Also very likely won't have BSI for better low light performance.
Meanwhile there's no good teardown (yet) to find out the make of the camera module, by going through the spec sheets of many other phones, the sensor is likely to be same one you find in Lumia 625.
Most of you will probably agree that Moto G doesn't take good photos. Meanwhile the optic is the best it should be well capable of better.
Issue at the moment is that there's TOO MUCH noise reduction, which can cause a very 'water-paint' feel to the pictures, and destroying any form of sharpness.
From my test with stock and many other camera apps (Lenovo, focal, a better cam, etc etc), while they help with the compression, focus, white-balance and metering etc. and can help the quality of the photos. They don't fix the sharpness/noise reduction issue with the camera. It seems like it's been hard-coded into the software for the camera.
Are there anyone out there who will be able to fix this?
The Motorola camera app was updated today, has this improved the noise reduction?
Nuthin' but a 'Moto G' thang
cption said:
Are there anyone out there who will be able to fix this?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Google seems to be working on a completely overhauled Hardware Abstraction Layer for the cameras that will allow apps to tap more directly into the camera pipelines. They'll be able, for instance, to get RAW captures and and do their own custom demoisacing/debayering and the whole post- pipeline. That would probably fix any heavy-handed processing done by any of the OEMs.
AluKed said:
Google seems to be working on a completely overhauled Hardware Abstraction Layer for the cameras that will allow apps to tap more directly into the camera pipelines. They'll be able, for instance, to get RAW captures and and do their own custom demoisacing/debayering and the whole post- pipeline. That would probably fix any heavy-handed processing done by any of the OEMs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
RAW just gives an uncompressed image, there's no real guarantee that no processing takes place..
I'm going to report my findings on the new moto camera update. From the look of it it's just a routine, general update that shouldn't make much difference.
bien irleeno
cption said:
RAW just gives an uncompressed image, there's no real guarantee that no processing takes place..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not really. RAW is much more than an uncompressed image, it's as close to the raw, unprocessed sensor output as possible. No demosaicing, no tone mapping/gamma, no conversion from (typically) 12 bits per pixel to 8 bits, no processing and no lossy compression. If any of this is done, then it isn't RAW.
For you which camera app is the best ?
el-marino said:
For you which camera app is the best ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
camera awesome is amazing and vignette its very good try with this app's u can get a better pic from stock cam
I think the original Android app takes better photos
The only problem with this app is the HDR
I installed the original app 4.2, 4.3 and 4.4, none of them has the HDR
Any way to solve this?
I've just installed snap camera, I have to say it is streets ahead of stock moto cam.
Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
I wasn't able to post before/after comparison with the stock camera app as it updated itself. So far I'm not seeing any different image wise between the update.
I've done some comparison shots in between the cameras, and added in my Ativ S (GS3 WP8 alter-ego) as a bonus.
Snap Camera focus very well, and I was able to take good shots with my shaky hands. However, the blurring issue is very apparent with all camera apps..
N.B. The Focal photo was slightly blurred due to my shaky hands, sorry!
Just to clear it, you're talking about this paid app ?
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.marginz.snap&hl=en
SlashGear have posted an article on the Camera software update released by Motorola.
This update does a tiny bit to improve all areas of shooting with manual controls, and shows sign that Motorola isn’t going to let this device fall by the wayside at all, whatsoever.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
[SlashGear]
lost101 said:
SlashGear have posted an article on the Camera software update released by Motorola.
[SlashGear]
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I dunno Slashgear articles seems iffy...
Moto G ALREADY had the Exposure/Focal Ring tbh, seems they didnt notice or use it in their original review. This exposure/focus ring is the basis of their camera comparison it seems.
I did not find options to manual focus and exposure.
Psychoferno said:
I did not find options to manual focus and exposure.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's just the ring that you can drag around the screen to choose the point of focus and exposure. I'm sure that we (at least I did!) had this from the beginning on Moto G (maybe the X didn't and that's where the stories are coming from?) and the recent update was basically bug fixes for us.
Yes, the G Moto already had this function. Thanks for the clarification.
Kameo said:
Just to clear it, you're talking about this paid app ?
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.marginz.snap&hl=en
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, I just used the trial for the comparison.
Note that XDA compresses the image so it's very hard to tell from the photos I posted.
But the Moto-G is absolutely no match for the camera on my Ativ-S/GS3. Not sure if it will fair better if the noise reduction issues been fixed.
But Snap Camera seem to do the best job out of the apps I've tried, for my shaky hand of course. Not compared the HDR mode yet but stock camera do that quite well.
any comparison between s3?^
t-bon3 said:
The Motorola camera app was updated today, has this improved the noise reduction?
Nuthin' but a 'Moto G' thang
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Camera apps rarely make any significant difference in quality, unless they start passing different parameters/settings to the camera HAL.
Usually, if you see major changes in camera performance, it's HAL changes, which require a system firmware update.
Entropy512 said:
Usually, if you see major changes in camera performance, it's HAL changes, which require a system firmware update.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm guessing that we'll get the Camera HAL v3 with Kit Kat 4.5. I mean, that's the kind of feature that would justify a version bump. Hopefully the hardware will be compliant enough that it won't have to run in the Limited Semantics mode.
http://www.xperiablog.net/2015/04/2...capture-in-future-if-there-is-popular-demand/
It's a marketing trick of course, don't worry they'll implement it in future updates
this is the "official" link where you can post your raw request - http://talk.sonymobile.com/t5/Software-Updates/Camera2-API/td-p/974742
suggestion - read 5th post - they want people to ask for raw support and maybe will implement it
I couldn't care less about RAW mode. What is really usefull is manual shutter speed! Good news is, that incorporating RAW mode will probably also mean manual control of shutter speed. So I'm supporting this case
Said it on Reddit and will say here. Sod RAW, give us Camera 2 API so third party apps with decent processing algorithm can access the camera directly.
Z4 should've been the first Android phone with manual shutter control and RAW output.
Why is LG beating Sony in the camera department? That's embarrassing.
Manufacturers as HTC and Xiaomi bring some time ago Full Manual controls... So there wasn't reason to don't bring Manual Controls in previous Android versions
I don't really need it, but if most people want it I think they should definitely add it.
Until people have the need to replace prosumer or pro cameras, adding raw into an everyday consumer device (albeit a high-end flagship phone) will just add additional headaches all-around(support calls/emails etc), and not benefit bottom-line (sales). These all-encompassing gaming/social/internet/communication/camera devices are difficult to target a specific audience because they cover such a wide range of users and their different needs and wants.
Everyone's attitude here is they're not happy with the SOC jpegs and expecting RAW will allow them to "do it better" themselves. That's an issue with the processing(that's speculation until raw files can be peeped). This is what Sony needs to fix, not just throwing RAW at us. Most people don't want to process raw files from WB to post-resize sharpening of what they ate just so they can share it on IG. RAW is not something anybody will want to upload without PP. It isn't going to magically make a ****ty camera better. If anything it'll only reveal how good or bad a camera truly is.
So why would Sony obviously, have-to, necessarily, provide this feature in any of their phones? Just because walkmans have a long history, doesn't mean they are going to give you wolfson dacs into the xperia and market it to people who don't care.
That being said. I'd be happy to have the option to take pictures in raw format, but foresee myself barely using it. If I cared enough to take higher quality pictures, I would put in the effort to bring out my actual full frame camera and lens and shoot raw all day long with high quality 60fps capture as well. I'm also going to play with the g4 in the store and check out raw uploads on the net to see what it can do, but not because I am looking to replace an actual camera with it. If you offer up pro features and market it as such - then you better beat other pro options in implementation and results, otherwise I'm not going to take it seriously and mark it as just another half-assed novelty feature and continue to use an actual camera that implements it well.
yeah yeah tl;dr
dobygot said:
Until people have the need to replace prosumer or pro cameras, adding raw into an everyday consumer device (albeit a high-end flagship phone) will just add additional headaches all-around(support calls/emails etc), and not benefit bottom-line (sales). These all-encompassing gaming/social/internet/communication/camera devices are difficult to target a specific audience because they cover such a wide range of users and their different needs and wants.
Everyone's attitude here is they're not happy with the SOC jpegs and expecting RAW will allow them to "do it better" themselves. That's an issue with the processing(that's speculation until raw files can be peeped). This is what Sony needs to fix, not just throwing RAW at us. Most people don't want to process raw files from WB to post-resize sharpening of what they ate just so they can share it on IG. RAW is not something anybody will want to upload without PP. It isn't going to magically make a ****ty camera better. If anything it'll only reveal how good or bad a camera truly is.
So why would Sony obviously, have-to, necessarily, provide this feature in any of their phones? Just because walkmans have a long history, doesn't mean they are going to give you wolfson dacs into the xperia and market it to people who don't care.
That being said. I'd be happy to have the option to take pictures in raw format, but foresee myself barely using it. If I cared enough to take higher quality pictures, I would put in the effort to bring out my actual full frame camera and lens and shoot raw all day long with high quality 60fps capture as well. I'm also going to play with the g4 in the store and check out raw uploads on the net to see what it can do, but not because I am looking to replace an actual camera with it. If you offer up pro features and market it as such - then you better beat other pro options in implementation and results, otherwise I'm not going to take it seriously and mark it as just another half-assed novelty feature and continue to use an actual camera that implements it well.
yeah yeah tl;dr
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Some people have a z3 and a proper camera but want the option to use raw on the their phone for when they don't have their proper camera with them. Or they might not have a proper camera but want to get into photography; using their phone is a cheaper alternative, and raw (in addition to the other things api2 provides) helps here. It's not something I imagine too many people will use but having the option is better than not having the option; no-one's suggesting that jpg will go away and everyone will have to convert their raw files after every shoot.
Webern said:
Some people have a z3 and a proper camera but want the option to use raw on the their phone for when they don't have their proper camera with them. Or they might not have a proper camera but want to get into photography; using their phone is a cheaper alternative, and raw (in addition to the other things api2 provides) helps here. It's not something I imagine too many people will use but having the option is better than not having the option; no-one's suggesting that jpg will go away and everyone will have to convert their raw files after every shoot.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It would be nice if they allowed saving both JPG and RAW like most DSLRs (even if it is slower) as then we would have a JPG to post on social media straight away and a RAW to enhance later if we wanted to :good:
^ this !
Webern said:
Some people have a z3 and a proper camera but want the option to use raw on the their phone for when they don't have their proper camera with them. Or they might not have a proper camera but want to get into photography; using their phone is a cheaper alternative, and raw (in addition to the other things api2 provides) helps here. It's not something I imagine too many people will use but having the option is better than not having the option; no-one's suggesting that jpg will go away and everyone will have to convert their raw files after every shoot.
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I agree that having the option is better than not having it. My post wasn't meant to argue the uses of RAW, but how users' needs affect mfger's decisions on spending money, because ultimately all they care about is how it'll affect the bottom line today or in the future. Sony attempting to capture this uber niche group for the z3 won't help them. Future models? Maybe, but it seems unlikely if they need to consider it eating into cybershot sales (Some yet to be released cybershots don't even shoot in RAW). Also, how far would they have to take the updates once they enable RAW to "us" ? Aperture priority, shutter priority, exposure locking, bracketing, etc.
The whole Manual control and raw output angle may or may not work for LG. But it makes sense for them to try it... because they really don't have anything else going for them against Samsung.
Z3 camera has issues
The Z3 camera has well known issues (like many cell phone cameras have).... purple blobs under demanding light conditions and some more
If you know how to handle RAW files then there's a better chance to correct that
but I will also need a specific RAW codec for the Z3 otherwise the most RAW converters won't work or will produce false colours.
What the user really want is a Camera with proper Manual controls and not that messed-up thing from Sony in the current camera ui
Z3 camera blows chunks. Really, there isn't much more to say about it. Soft, mushy, noisy. Exposure often off. Just not a camera experience fitting a top end phone from the worlds leading digital photography OEM.
Ideally Sony would improve the SOC JPGs. If they where industry leading standard then there wouldn't be so much demand for RAW.
In the likely scenario were Sony engineers are unable (or unwilling/not backed by the bean counters) to deliver improved JPEG output, RAW is a decent workaround.
But as mentioned, unless the likes of Adobe can support the RAW files then they won't be very useful. Anyone who knows what to do with a RAW will want to fit it onto their already established work flow. If Sony can just output DNG's (DNG+JPEG) that would be ok.
Sony are bleeding market share with xperias. They need to really deliver some great updates to their existing phones and release some exceptional new hardware to regain some favour from consumers. Support is the key, if they can deliver top notch updates that markedly improve end user experience then people will buy their hardware, knowing they will be supported by the manufacturer for the life of the product. It's not just about updating the ROM to the latest android release, its about enhancing the experience, listening to consumers concerns and demands and responding quickly and effectively.
ozzy lion said:
But as mentioned, unless the likes of Adobe can support the RAW files then they won't be very useful. Anyone who knows what to do with a RAW will want to fit it onto their already established work flow. If Sony can just output DNG's (DNG+JPEG) that would be ok.
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The API requires that DNG is output. So as long as Sony adheres to the Camera2 API that is what we will get!
In my opinion, Sony does not have to do anything to their camera software. Just implement the Camera2 API and there are already other camera apps out there which utilize the new features.
wasnt there articles published recently stating that Samsung devices were going to receive RAW mode too? and HTC joining in as well? forgot where the articles went, but if true, i see no reason why Sony should hold back when everyone else is doing it.
Sony needs to offer something that the competitors/market doesnt have, or at least be the first to do so... not following others >.>
abhinav.tella said:
I don't really need it, but if most people want it I think they should definitely add it.
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You need it without knowing you need it; developers who work on camera-related apps such as Open Camera currently get jpegs from the camera, so if they want to perform further processing such as auto-rotating the photo, superimposing date/time etc it's another generational loss of quality. If they could instead get a raw file they could do all that losslessly and then offer the user of the usual (but better quality) jpeg or raw.
LitoNi said:
wasnt there articles published recently stating that Samsung devices were going to receive RAW mode too? and HTC joining in as well? forgot where the articles went, but if true, i see no reason why Sony should hold back when everyone else is doing it.
Sony needs to offer something that the competitors/market doesnt have, or at least be the first to do so... not following others >.>
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Did that include existing devices, or future devices?
I don't know if I've seen any device (other than possibly Nexus devices) that had RAW capability retrofitted after-the-fact - even devices that had Qualcomm's proprietary RAW support. (Which isn't compatible with the new camera API RAW stuff - just like Qualcomm's multiSIM stuff was completely incompatible with the MTK-based stuff Google put into 5.x)
As topic name says, sony wants to know if there is demand to support "RAW" format for Xperia Line in future lollipop release.
You can read more here
http://www.xperiablog.net/2015/04/2...capture-in-future-if-there-is-popular-demand/
And you can request it on official sony forum
http://talk.sonymobile.com/t5/Software-Updates/Camera2-API/m-p/974754#M21577
What is RAW exactly ?
I read it a couple pf times but i am not sure what it is.
Roughly speaking it's an image file. RAW is commonly used by photographers and they have more detail than your average jpeg. But RAW files user alot of memory.
I don't care for it tbh. Jpeg files on my Z2 are big enough when I go full 20 Mpixel.
Honestly I don't care about RAW either. But I want them to implement camera2 api.
I hope we can choose between jpeg or raw if it becomes available not just one
RJASSI21 said:
I hope we can choose between jpeg or raw if it becomes available not just one
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There's no way in hell they'd set RAW as default. RAW is practically unusable without editing, and takes a lot of space. If they implement it it's definitely gonna be optional.
Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk
The thing is, if they add support for RAW photo's, there's a good chance the camera mode will get updated from legacy mode to either limited or full mode. To find out what that would mean, head over to this link. (it also gives an overview of which devices support which camera2 mode) And here is a quote for the lazy ones:
Camera2 Supported Hardware Levels
FULL: all that’s required but not everything
30fps operation at sensor resolution preferred, 20fps required for at least uncompressed YUV output: useful for burst capture and computational photography
Per frame control
Manual sensor control: Like exposure time, ISO gain
Manual post-processing control: color rendition, contrast/gamma curve, noise reduction
Arbitrary cropping, in size and coordinates
At least 3 processed non-stalling output streams formats: like YUV 4:2:0 used for preview.
The ability to list and auto-configure output formats according to a list of supported streams
Note that FULL does not require RAW capture nor valid metadata and calibration profile for the DNG writer.
LIMITED: partial support, your mileage may vary
Cameras describing themselves as limited have some of the Camera2 capabilities but not all of them, and not all the ones required for the FULL supported hardware level either.
The reason would be either because the camera module or its Image Signal Processor lacks some of the required capabilities, or because the manufacturer didn’t implement them so they become available in Camera2 API.
LEGACY: a wrapper around the old Camera API
Legacy Camera2 means only really the historic Camera API is implemented. But for good measure, Lollipop adds a layer over it so modern camera applications do not have to implement two separate ways to control the imaging systems.
Each camera (usually back and front) has its own capability set. For instance, Nexus 5 hardware support level is FULL for the back and LIMITED for the front.
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Right now we're on legacy, which means we don't get any of the fancy new camera2 api features. If Sony updates it, it should be relatively easy to add more features, like manual focus for example. (which I would love to have, personally)
It comes down to this:
Even if you don't care about RAW photography, it's still wise to request it and maybe request support for full mode because that will get you a lot of other cool features as well.
I DO NOT need it.
It's a plus point, but definitely not a necessity.
Raw it's a optional feature, but the other features of camera2api are usefull. We can use finally the sony's sensors at max power I want camera2api and RAW
I think it's rude they are even asking for our opinion. Google published it and Sony excluded it from the original code and now is asking us if we want it.
Personally, it's not as important as - say- a SMS software or not a must but still, why take something out?
Sent from my D6503 using XDA Free mobile app
_delice_doluca_ said:
I think it's rude they are even asking for our opinion. Google published it and Sony excluded it from the original code and now is asking us if we want it.
Personally, it's not as important as - say- a SMS software or not a must but still, why take something out?
Sent from my D6503 using XDA Free mobile app
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At least they lending a listening ear. Most OEMs, including Samsung, excluded it. Industry standard.
Well at least Sony think about the people and asking it, we cant say that from other manufractures
Id love to see raw support
Seeing a camera with raw vs without is a big difference
I want
LAKAME_MAN said:
There's no way in hell they'd set RAW as default. RAW is practically unusable without editing, and takes a lot of space. If they implement it it's definitely gonna be optional.
Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk
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Thank god for that!
not a need, but definitly a want
Absolutely a need. I will not buy another device which doesn't support raw capture, now that it is readily available for manufacturers to add.
I would definitely wanna see RAW support since it significantly improves the quality of pictures on Android phones with Lollipop..
Defently CameraApi2 would be useful, now I can take really good pictures with manual but with that extra features.
Sony camera will rock!
Guys, even if you would not use it, just request it as many others would use. Please help the community.
I am aware that our Mix uses a 1/3.06" 16MP Omnivision Sensor with a Pixel size of the measly 1um. But the Huawei Mate 9 has a similar sized sensor (1/2.9" 12MP sensor with a pixel size of approx. 1.25um.) and shoots really great pics. Obviously Huawei may have used a latest generation Sony sensor with Leica's optics which will blow the Omnivision away. Even the cheapest Sony sensor would outperform an Omnivision any day.
My question is, will shooting images at a lower resolution like 12MP on the Mix give us better results? I'm not expecting Mate 9 like results as the phone's camera was never a priority when I bought this device. But would this help reduce noise or give us better results compared to shooting at 16MP? I am noticing lower noise when shooting at 13MP on Open camera compared to shooting at 16MP.
Does shooting at a lower resolution increase the Pixel size from 1um? Or is it strictly something to do with the sensor? Does the sensor behave the same either way and are we just getting cropped images when shooting at lower resolutions?
I've read in a few places that the sensor is fully utilized regardless but shooting at lower resolutions can reduce noise. If I can at least get half decent 12MP images compared to noisy unreliable 16MP ones, I wouldn't mind shooting at lower resolutions. Of course I am not expecting ground breaking image quality.
Some older Sony phones like the Xperia Z2 used to have a default mode which clicked images at 8MP even though the effective sensor resolution was 21MP. Sony claimed that the lower resolution gave batter images especially lesser noise. I am referring to something like this.
Hope someone can explain this.
@satishp did a search on dpreview.com
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/2995010
The 2nd reply sums it up pretty well.
The answer to your question is no, reducing the resolution will not increase your image quality. The sensor always takes full-resolution image. Reducing resolution is a post-processing function and is no different than reducing resolution on the computer. Note that there are a few cameras with special low-resolution modes that are supposed to improve either the image or performance in certain ways. But when you have these modes you know it because they’re selling features of the camera.
There is now a significant amount of information available publically demonstrating that image quality depends on sensor size and sensor efficiency only. The number of pixels doesn’t matter. When printed at the same print size, images from the same sized sensor exhibit the same amount of noise regardless of resolution.
Thorin78 said:
@satishp did a search on dpreview.com
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/2995010
The 2nd reply sums it up pretty well.
The answer to your question is no, reducing the resolution will not increase your image quality. The sensor always takes full-resolution image. Reducing resolution is a post-processing function and is no different than reducing resolution on the computer. Note that there are a few cameras with special low-resolution modes that are supposed to improve either the image or performance in certain ways. But when you have these modes you know it because they’re selling features of the camera.
There is now a significant amount of information available publically demonstrating that image quality depends on sensor size and sensor efficiency only. The number of pixels doesn’t matter. When printed at the same print size, images from the same sized sensor exhibit the same amount of noise regardless of resolution.
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Thanks for clearing this! So it may have been placebo that the images shot at 12MP seemed to be less noisy to me. Lol!
I use Open Camera which seems to produce brighter images compared to the stock camera. I'm sure these 3rd party apps aren't magically making the sensor capture more light compared to the stock app. I've noticed that these apps automatically crank up the display brightness to max as soon as they are launched. There may also be some real-time processing involved which makes the images appear brighter and slightly better compared to the stock app.
I am considering getting the Sony Alpha QX1 (with inter-changeable lenses) or the older QX100 which would make the Mix perfect! These lens style cameras attach to the phone and transfer images directly to the phone via NFC pairing. Just wondering whether the mix is too wide for the bracket on the lenses. The QX1 has the same APS-C sensor utilized on some of Sony's Alpha range and the QX100 has the 1" BSI sensor used on the RX100II. Only downside is that none of them can do 4K video.
Thanks again! Cheers!
satishp said:
I am considering getting the Sony Alpha QX1 (with inter-changeable lenses) or the older QX100 which would make the Mix perfect! These lens style cameras attach to the phone and transfer images directly to the phone via NFC pairing. Just wondering whether the mix is too wide for the bracket on the lenses. The QX1 has the same APS-C sensor utilized on some of Sony's Alpha range and the QX100 has the 1" BSI sensor used on the RX100II. Only downside is that none of them can do 4K video.
Thanks again! Cheers!
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You will need this - https://www.amazon.com/SPA-TA1-Tabl...UTF8&qid=1483946210&sr=8-2&keywords=qx+tablet
The smallest one should work perfectly with the phone. I had the QX-100 and it didn't fit the note 4 out of the box.
emann56 said:
You will need this - https://www.amazon.com/SPA-TA1-Tabl...UTF8&qid=1483946210&sr=8-2&keywords=qx+tablet
The smallest one should work perfectly with the phone. I had the QX-100 and it didn't fit the note 4 out of the box.
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Seems to be quite expensive just for an attachment. If it didn't fit the Note 4, it most definitely won't fit the Mix. So I guess that attachment is a must and when you add the price of the QX1's body + Lens + the attachment, it doesn't seem to be worth it. Ofcourse, the images would blow away even the best of mobile cameras.
Only if it was priced right!
I have the QX-30, the tablet mount is a must unless you plan on not attaching it to the phone. It makes the overall portability not so great, you're probably better off just getting a full blown dedicated camera but the QX-1 might be good, just make sure to buy one of the lenses otherwise you can't do anything, the SELP1650 might be decent I think.
Also if you're thinking of getting the swiveling rotation mount, don't bother, it's not compatible with the tablet mount.
For those who haven't tried RAW capture yet, stock camera works perfectly fine after activating the camera2 api. Just thought I should mention that since it's not such an uncommon issue.
Camera
benziii said:
For those who haven't tried RAW capture yet, stock camera works perfectly fine after activating the camera2 api. Just thought I should mention that since it's not such an uncommon issue.
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How do you do that. please give us instructions on how to.
jaime4272 said:
How do you do that. please give us instructions on how to.
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Add the line "persist.camera.HAL3.enabled=1" at the end of your build.prop, then reboot. It goes without saying you either need a build.prop editor or like me, just use the text editor that comes with Root explorer for example. Next get a camera app that supports RAW, like Open camera or Manual camera.
[Edit] Remember to mount as read/write when you are in system folder, or your changes won't stick. Our build.prop has two empty lines at the bottom, so if you have added something at an earlier time, make sure you have one empty line at the end.
benziii said:
For those who haven't tried RAW capture yet, stock camera works perfectly fine after activating the camera2 api. Just thought I should mention that since it's not such an uncommon issue.
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Only for my understanding
Does it only activate RAW mode or does it increase the picture quality for ordinary mode too?
vergilbt said:
Only for my understanding
Does it only activate RAW mode or does it increase the picture quality for ordinary mode too?
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There is more to it than just RAW. Read up on camera2 features and what an api is. But to answer your question, no, it does not increase quality.
Apps that support raw
benziii said:
There is more to it than just RAW. Read up on camera2 features and what an api is. But to answer your question, no, it does not increase quality.
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I downloaded camera FV-5 which support raw the option said that this phone does not support RAW, any idea?
jaime4272 said:
I downloaded camera FV-5 which support raw the option said that this phone does not support RAW, any idea?
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Even though I know FV-5 has been praised for years, I've never bought it. I'm not a big snapper so I've often been content with manual modes on the stock cameras. But since I have recently gotten RAW capture going, I've contemplated loosely on paying for either Manual camera or Camera FV-5. All I've tried on the Mix so far, is Manual camera's compatibility app (which checks out), and taken some RAW pics with Open camera.
I'm going to check out some more apps soon.
Considering it is required for RAW capture, I reckon you have a paid version? I quickly tried the free one, and see only one instance of compatibility (under general photo settings). But there is nothing there. Do you get the message when you change picture output?
There is an option on the paid version but it's grayed out because of incompatibility, but there is
you don't improve the noise performance by taking a smaller resolution, you do that by downsizing from a large image.
I think the best method is to use a good manual setting, shoot in raw and then edit in post processing.
however I think the images aren't that reliable
I cannot Open the dng file
---------- Post added at 05:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:18 AM ----------
Snapseed and Lightroom cannot parse the dng File ....Amy Help?
gorillalaci said:
I cannot Open the dng file
---------- Post added at 05:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:18 AM ----------
Snapseed and Lightroom cannot parse the dng File ....Amy Help?
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On my desktop I use UFRaw and Gimp / Photoshop. But I haven't gotten any mobile apps to open my RAW images either. Weird.
I know this is a few months old, but I think this app needs to be better known:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=troop.com.freedcam
Yes, it works with DNGs and can handle our Mix Camera sensor. And yes, it's 100% FREE.
Also, it comes from a XDA dev, so even more kudos for him!!
codymamak said:
I know this is a few months old, but I think this app needs to be better known:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=troop.com.freedcam
Yes, it works with DNGs and can handle our Mix Camera sensor. And yes, it's 100% FREE.
Also, it comes from a XDA dev, so even more kudos for him!!
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Installed it, but crashing when try to tap to focus.. Autofocus doesnt work it self
I have it working, but I'm using the LOS 14.1 build 20.5.17 from here on XDA, not MIUI. Sorry but I didn't test stock ROM before flashing.
Also, you can contact the dev at this thread here at XDA: https://forum.xda-developers.com/android/apps-games/camera-freedcam-4-0-3-t3115548
Maybe he can help out.