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I think they are making a big mistake taking this stance on root & custom roms.
http://androinica.com/2010/07/14/mo...source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_camp aign=Feed%3A+androinica+%28Androinica+-++A+Google+Android+Blog%29
Maybe they should stop with Android then. The platform is all about being open. I lost all interest in this phone when this was confirmed.
Sent from my SPH-M900 using XDA App
They just lost half of there customers now
Sent from my HTC Dream
You guys are desensitized from being members here
the rooting/modding/flashing community is maybe at most 10-15% of users, and that's being super generous
most people will not even read that announcement, and if they do, most will have no idea what it means
Zardos66 said:
Maybe they should stop with Android then. The platform is all about being open. I lost all interest in this phone when this was confirmed.
Sent from my SPH-M900 using XDA App
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Click to collapse
i can only completely agree with that! i wanted it but now i ordered a galaxy S...screw you motorola!
Modders may only be a very small portion of their user base. But I'll tell everyone who ask to avoid the whole Moto line of phones. And being a Computer Guy I get asked a lot.
I too have posted my feelings on a couple of other boards. Even on my facebook. Android is open source and it is my understanding that Gingerbread is actually aiming at getting rid of overlays like Sense and Blur. Good for Google.
This wasn't even a fully open admission from Motorola. From what I understand the eFuse thing was found BY modders...and not explained by Motorola. That is down right devious.
I was seriously on the fence about this phone...been driving my friends nuts with comparisons between Evo and Droid X. Was going to have both of them in 30 day period to compare side by side for a week...
...now...I love my Evolina more and she is the phone for me. Canceling my spot on the waiting list.
Its really just a stop gap phone until we see a 4.3" HTC device or other super phone with more features. I can live without custom roms and root access on this phone for 6 months.
grdm said:
You guys are desensitized from being members here
the rooting/modding/flashing community is maybe at most 10-15% of users, and that's being super generous
most people will not even read that announcement, and if they do, most will have no idea what it means
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Click to collapse
I'd say it much smaller than that. There also seems to be a lot of die hard ROM flashing types buying the phone anyways
I dislike the encrypted boot loader, but not enough to not buy the phone. I am assuming we will manage to get root access. And with that we can do a lot.
Only time will tell how big an issue the bootloader ends up being.
Why have things been so quiet on the dev front lately?
There was an initial flurry of activity, and most of the big ticket items were taken care of like rooting, sideloading, enabling tethering, webtop hacks, HDMI mirroring, etc. Thanks to DG and the other devs for that!
However, afaik we've only got 2 ROMs so far. I was hoping to join in the dev community when I get the time, but there doesn't seem to be much of one anymore.
Other moto devices with locked bootloaders do have significantly more activity. I'm tempted to jump ship to the Verizon Thunderbolt now... pity because I really like the Atrix despite it's locked bootloader.
(I don't mean to disparage the work done so far... I realize that one of the reasons activity has slowed down is because the big ticket items have been taken care of
Like I've stated in another post in a different thread. Without an unlocked bootloader, you're going to be hearing crickets in these forums soon, as peoples 30 day trial periods are soon coming up. Sure not everyone is returning it but no dev support means a dead device for those of us that want custom roms. There is nothing more to say. If for some off chance the bootloader becomes unlocked you can always buy it again if you still want to support motorola. But don't keep this device based on hope. Accept that moto screwed you and return it while you still can. I am 7 days to go...
No, I'm not keeping it based on hope. I want to keep it because I really like the form factor of the phone as well as its resolution and battery life. I also wanted a phone with HDMI out.
You don't need a custom kernel to have a ROM - sure that imposes limitations on what you can do. In fact, the GingerBlur ROM proved that you can get some enhancements of newer Android releases without changing the kernel.
I can understand though that fewer DEVs would be motivated to work on a phone with a locked/signed bootloader. However, the Droid X forums seem to be pretty active...
i too am a little disappointed at the shrinking dev base - i've seen some leave. however of AT&T android phones, regardless of the software this one appeals to me the most for its form factor/size (i wanted 4" over 4.3"), front-camera and color (all black). the HDMI out (+enabled webtop) is nice too, along with the screen resolution.
'Tis a shame. From what I've been hearing, the Atrix was a sales flop. So much wasted potential.
Well, I'm sticking with it regardless. I got it on launch day and I plan to enjoy it to the fullest.
The tegra 2 game that I want isn't even out yet.
NoNameAtAll said:
'Tis a shame. From what I've been hearing, the Atrix was a sales flop. So much wasted potential.
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Click to collapse
Maybe this'll be a lesson for Motorola and they might decide to unlock the bootloader after all. I'm this close to jumping ship to the HTC Thunderbolt... I'll probably be grandfathered into their unlimited plan for the foreseeable future.
I tried to get ATT to give me an additional GB by threatening to switch to Verizon, but all they gave me was crappy $25 credit. **** Motorola and **** ATT!!
professor_chaos said:
Maybe this'll be a lesson for Motorola and they might decide to unlock the bootloader after all. I'm this close to jumping ship to the HTC Thunderbolt... I'll probably be grandfathered into their unlimited plan for the foreseeable future.
I tried to get ATT to give me an additional GB by threatening to switch to Verizon, but all they gave me was crappy $25 credit. **** Motorola and **** ATT!!
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Click to collapse
I just bought a thunderbolt. Patiently awaiting its arrival.
Screw moto.
I just found out that DG has left us... this totally blows, though at least Kenneth is still working on the GingerBlur ROM.
eallan said:
I just bought a thunderbolt. Patiently awaiting its arrival.
Screw moto.
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Did just that and never looked back. LTE Blows at&t out the water where I live and even tough single core...it feels just as fast.
Sent from my ADR6400L using XDA App
It does suck we have one person creating roms. Ken is doing an amazing job but only one man can only do so much. I feel that if more devs were here creating roms people would stick around. I plan on keeping mine for awhile since I bought it outright...I'm due for an upgrade soon so well see.
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
I'm so mad...these devs see all this negative stuff about how people don't like their Atrix, why the hell WOULD they want to develop for it? Everyone saying "i'm leaving" "returning it" "bought htc (whatever)" doesn't help. Keep it positive at least. Nobody wants to do work for a bunch of winers...
If you're going to return it, keep it to yourself. Nobody cares.
I'm surprised Ken's still working for all of you moaners.
A new rule would be nice, say something useful or don't say anything at all.
It's not the devs fault that Moto screwed them, most folks got it on the hint that moto had changed for the better and was going to make the bootloader open.
I can't blame the folks for taking them back.
Hell I have a Captivate, Hardware outstanding ( just like the Atrix, ok minus the GPS ) Software flat out sucks, at least the devs could do something with the Captivate with the open bootloader. It makes it a pretty damn good phone.
Just imagine what could done with the Atrix if the devs could actually do something with it, Kens isn't real happy either as I'm sure his considerable talent is being stifled by Moto, that burns his ass a lot more than folks returning it because moto rammed it home hard.
I'm sitting on couple of upgrades right now and would get the Atrix in a heartbeat IF Moto and ATT would allow it to be open for the devs. In the meantime I'll wait and may switch to Sprint ( even though I've been Orange for over ten years ) for the Evo3d ( think I read somewhere it has Wimax and LTE radios in it ), that thing is looking real nice and about as future proof as it get's in this industry.
Atrix is a bust Motorola really blew it with the locked bootloader. They underestimated the developer communities influence and it's coming back to bite them in their fat greedy ass.
BravoMotorola said:
I'm so mad...these devs see all this negative stuff about how people don't like their Atrix, why the hell WOULD they want to develop for it? Everyone saying "i'm leaving" "returning it" "bought htc (whatever)" doesn't help. Keep it positive at least. Nobody wants to do work for a bunch of winers...
If you're going to return it, keep it to yourself. Nobody cares.
I'm surprised Ken's still working for all of you moaners.
A new rule would be nice, say something useful or don't say anything at all.
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Click to collapse
It's not like everyone is saying that. But the ones saying that are really being vocal about it. I don't get all the hate. Phone has not even one month and mostly I see people complaining about the locked bootloader. Eventually, that will get cracked.
Devnant said:
Eventually, that will get cracked.
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such optimism. The droidX has been out how long? That is still locked down nice and good. I know there are differences, but be reasonable here. It would appear MOTO knows what they are doing.
cegna09 said:
such optimism. The droidX has been out how long? That is still locked down nice and good. I know there are differences, but be reasonable here. It would appear MOTO knows what they are doing.
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and at the same time they absolutely have no idea what they are doing to themselves
live4nyy said:
and at the same time they absolutely have no idea what they are doing to themselves
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Click to collapse
i don't believe this statement for a second. I really don't think this phone is being returned in droves by average users.
in the Eyes of Motorola reliability for 90% of users > support of 10% who want to hack. and a locked down phone is much better for reliability.
cegna09 said:
i don't believe this statement for a second. I really don't think this phone is being returned in droves by average users.
in the Eyes of Motorola reliability for 90% of users > support of 10% who want to hack. and a locked down phone is much better for reliability.
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Given the specs of this phone and the capabilities I think that the development community represents a higher percentage in the overall buyers base for this phone. Rooting and custom ROMs are becoming more "fashionable" to average users. I'm not saying that there will be an immediate impact within the lifespan of this phone but if Moto continues these methods it will turn around to bite them
look at the other dual core tegra phone(optimus 2x). the devs and the the people there seems to be really happy with their phone now that clockwordmod is available and some custom kernels are already taking into place(optimus 2x is not yet release here in US and some part of europe)
so i think the locked bootloader is one of the major culprit why most devs are leaving atrix and so are some people who wants custom roms for their phone. its a big disppointment really, moto and at&t are [insert word here]
its a good phone but motorola is acting like apple.
So... The xyboard has tons of potential, but unfortunately, development is beyond dead, and Motorola seems to have already bastardized it. No ics until q3 or 4? But the Xoom, the old device, already has it? I will say it, I regret buying this device. I can't even sell it for 400 bucks now.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using XDA
It should of been a no brainer before you brought it.
A. Its on verizon, that alone is enough detray people from their high prices. I don't think subsidized buyers are anywhere near the amount of upfront wifi tablet buyers
B. It wasn't the first honeycomb tablet like the xoom
C. Overpriced
D. When released, nothing about it stands out one bit except for the motorola build quality at the time of release.
There is also the fact that the Xoom is a Google Experience device, while the Xyboard is not.
The _only_ fact that is relevant is that it's got a locked bootloader, and therefore devs are extremely less likely to touch it.
Seems if the xoom breaks and is in warranty, you get a xoom 2.
I keep mine in bubble wrap.
Sent from my MB525 using xda premium
Maybe we should set up some kind of developing team to get developing rolling on the Xoom 2 but we need bootstrap or safestrap first.
Kippui said:
It should of been a no brainer before you brought it.
A. Its on verizon, that alone is enough detray people from their high prices. I don't think subsidized buyers are anywhere near the amount of upfront wifi tablet buyers
B. It wasn't the first honeycomb tablet like the xoom
C. Overpriced
D. When released, nothing about it stands out one bit except for the motorola build quality at the time of release.
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Click to collapse
I wouldn't say it doesn't stand out. It rocks quadrant scores, stock (beats the galaxy tab, etc). It's got LTE, an IR blaster, very nice build quality, and came loaded with Moto promises. Motorola 'promised' to have all bootloaders unlocked by years ends, which would have meant development 'game on.' Of course, that was total bull**** unfortunately, and they have since changed their tune. Why a company owned by google wouldn't endorse development on the google OS is beyond me, but it seems to be the case. Now, the final nail in the coffin, as far as I am concerned, is motorolas update schedule. While I was happy to buy it with ICS 'around the corner'... around the corner has turned into at least 6 months. I am not waiting 6 months to have a year old operating system. Really epic, epic fail on Moto's part. They basically released a device and then told customers who bought it that they shouldn't have bothered.
luke.arran said:
Maybe we should set up some kind of developing team to get developing rolling on the Xoom 2 but we need bootstrap or safestrap first.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
From everything I have read from developers much more talented than I... it ain't happening. Moto has bent over backwards to make sure absolutely nothing useful can come from this device.
loudog3114 said:
I wouldn't say it doesn't stand out. It rocks quadrant scores, stock (beats the galaxy tab, etc). It's got LTE, an IR blaster, very nice build quality, and came loaded with Moto promises. Motorola 'promised' to have all bootloaders unlocked by years ends, which would have meant development 'game on.' Of course, that was total bull**** unfortunately, and they have since changed their tune. Why a company owned by google wouldn't endorse development on the google OS is beyond me, but it seems to be the case. Now, the final nail in the coffin, as far as I am concerned, is motorolas update schedule. While I was happy to buy it with ICS 'around the corner'... around the corner has turned into at least 6 months. I am not waiting 6 months to have a year old operating system. Really epic, epic fail on Moto's part. They basically released a device and then told customers who bought it that they shouldn't have bothered.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Right back to point one, it doesnt matter if it has the best quadrant in the world. Verizon high prices is enough to make it not stand out one bit at the time of release. Most likely if devs already have a xoom 3g and are in contract then they most likey won't spend the cash for a xyboard so quickly. You now learn't your lesson to be extra careful in picking out a tablet especially if its on verizon. Usually when a tablet has no wifi option is a bad sign. >.>
loudog3114 said:
From everything I have read from developers much more talented than I... it ain't happening. Moto has bent over backwards to make sure absolutely nothing useful can come from this device.
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Click to collapse
Now all we can do now is beg MotoDev for an unlocked bootloader.
Just curious,
Sent from my 2012 Nexus 7 using xda app-developers app
Technically its been obsolete for a while but I imagine we'll get AOSP support for a couple more years.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4
If you are using a custom ROM, you can bet your ass it will be obsolete.
None of the devs except maybe 2 in the whole community have stuck with a device they are developing for once a new one comes out. They'll abandon users as soon as something new comes out.
I actually came to this forum to see if there was a stock 4.3, because I'm sick and tired of devs who walk out on their users.
Any ROM developers reading this: Yes, this most likely means you.
The DONATIONS you give these guys gives them enough money to get something new; that means, you paid for your own demise.
I'll probably get some flak over this comment, but I've been a member since 2006, I see the trends.
Disgraceful.
It's so bad, I trust Verizon more than I do developers. Now that's sad.
Sent from my DROID RAZR MAXX HD
abuttino said:
The DONATIONS you give these guys gives them enough money to get something new; that means, you paid for your own demise.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lol!
Obsolescence is a state of mind.
I'm still happy to be using my unrooted DroidX on Android 2.3.4, my rooted, stock Nexus 7 locked at Android 4.1.2 (very stable at 1100+ hours System Uptime, i.e. no unexpected reboots), and even a Windows XP SP3 PC.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4
ERM HTC hd 2 much? Bit harsh labeling all developers like that, rather than just dissing them have a go at it yourself. The whole paying for your own demise is unfair too, these guys put hours of effort & probably stressful nights into these ROMs & upload these ROMs for FREE but the option is there to DONATE if you would like to. I have only just got a 2012 n7 & hope to learn enough to keep it running as long as the hardware will last. If you want to keep custom ROMs in development have a go at it rather than sitting back & waiting for it serving up on a plate for free & being ungrateful for what you have actually been given. Remember these guys have lives & jobs & families outside providing FREE ROMs for you.
Sent from my Nexus 7
Apparently you didn't read the post.
I said that I was searching for a STOCK 4.3 ROM.
and.. I trust Verizon more than I trust devs.
What would make you think I'm using a custom ROM after that comment?
It's not harsh, it's the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts.
I am on tapatalk but if I made my way over to a desktop view, I'm guessing you just joined in the last 2 years. If not, you should see the trends and notice this inexcusable behavior.
I've been here for 7, I see the trends. I am on the most coveted Motorola device at this time, because it's the only one "unlockable". Meander over to the RAZR HD forums, it's dead and we get stale bread crap roms while the sgs4 gets hyperdrive.
I am scared ****less to unlock my device because I know the devs are already abandoning it. I would rather Verizon come out with 4.3 and I can get a nexus 7 4.3 and be on my merry way developing more apps.
When you have something device centric and the users gave you donations to support your development on that device, you are not supposed to walk away from those users like most do. Essentially, they screw the user because they walk off with the money and never look back. If they were business people they wouldn't be in business long for all the lawsuits they would encounter.
Tell me you haven't had this happen to you before.
Low blow or not, it's the truth.
Sent from my DROID RAZR MAXX HD
abuttino said:
Apparently you didn't read the post.
I said that I was searching for a STOCK 4.3 ROM.
and.. I trust Verizon more than I trust devs.
What would make you think I'm using a custom ROM after that comment?
It's not harsh, it's the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts.
I am on tapatalk but if I made my way over to a desktop view, I'm guessing you just joined in the last 2 years.
I've been here for 7, I see the trends. I am on the most coveted Motorola device at this time, because it's the only one "unlockable". Meander over to the RAZR HD forums, it's dead and we get stale bread crap roms while the sgs4 gets hyperdrive.
I am scared ****less to unlock my device because I know the devs are already abandoning it. I would rather Verizon come out with 4.3 and I can get a nexus 7 4.3 and be on my merry way developing more apps.
When you have something device centric and the users gave you donations to support your development on that device, you are not supposed to walk away from those users like most do.
Low blow or not, it's the truth.
Sent from my DROID RAZR MAXX HD
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Click to collapse
Wow!!!!!! You've been here for 7 years.....big deal. And in those 7 years you've been so helpful to your fellow members that you have been "thanked" 7 whole times....let's see....that's one thank per year.
Why don't you just go back to lurking and leave the forum to those who really want to use it.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using xda app-developers app
I do see what your saying to a point but it doesn't leave a device useless. The option is there to leave stock, flash a custom Rom or make one to suit yourself. Being dickish really isn't going to help gain support or sympathy, the only thing being achieved here is irritating people & isolating yourself from any help you may need.
Sent from my Nexus 7
Well... Look at it this way, someone had to say it.
When it comes time for a new operating system, people are left high and dry for root access, making their device useless for all intents and purposes.
The developers need to pay a little more respect to people that made donations with not walking away the first sight of a new device.
Sent from my DROID RAZR MAXX HD
Ouch! I'm going bow out of this pissing match.
I pity the fool that puts more faith into Verizon than me.
So sad. You've got issues dude. How are those monthly Verizon donations working out for you?
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4
They are called service fees and I get the best service of any carrier in the United States.
So, other than Verizon being slow to release roms, at least they don't abandon devices as fast as devs do.
Sent from my DROID RAZR MAXX HD
You sir need to change your tone and quick.
I have abandoned no one and find your bull**** attitude offensive.
I have collected the vast income of about $70 here over the years.
Where the **** were you when I bricked my N73G trying to get GSM voice working.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4
abuttino said:
I actually came to this forum to see if there was a stock 4.3, because I'm sick and tired of devs who walk out on their users.
Any ROM developers reading this: Yes, this most likely means you.
The DONATIONS you give these guys gives them enough money to get something new; that means, you paid for your own demise.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dbag alert..
Synman said:
So sad. You've got issues dude. How are those monthly Verizon donations working out for you?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ZING!
Ungrateful bastard. Stay stock.
Sent from my SGH-I337M using xda app-developers app
Perhaps xda should start selectively charging service fees starting with you.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4
Ya know... This really pisees me off. You should be thankful you even have post rights here. XDA is a DEVELOPERS forum. What is it exactly you have actually contributed in your 7 years here?
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4
You can download the stock images of nexus devices from Google. No need to come here and complain.
As far as this being obsolete I wouldn't be too worried unless you need/want more powerful hardware.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using xda app
Keithn said:
You can download the stock images of nexus devices from Google. No need to come here and complain.
As far as this being obsolete I wouldn't be too worried unless you need/want more powerful hardware.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using xda app
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Click to collapse
If he was going to complain about developers doing what they want with their own free time, I'm not surprised he didn't think things through about where factory images come.
Newsflash: donations are voluntary contributions. They are not the same as service fees or commission payment. They carry no legal obligations. If you choose to donate to a dev to get a device, you're acknowledging in the act of donation that the dev is under no contract to support a device for any length of time.
It's very different from what you appear to be imagining, which is some bizarre situation where devs draw up contracts to do crowdfunded work and then breach some "agreement" they made with their users. If a carrier that you pay money for service stops providing services, they're legally liable for that. But if you donate money to a dev? Good luck getting anyone to give a hoot. Caveat emptor.
Synman said:
XDA is a DEVELOPERS forum.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just curious... anyone know what % of the users on XDA are/were software developers?
Nate2 said:
Just curious... anyone know what % of the users on XDA are/were software developers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Anyone know how much this forum would last without that % of developers?
Oh wait... everybody knows... not much.
No reasonable conversation is taking place and therefore...
Thread closed.
https://twitter.com/Motorola/status/607934001500852224 so yeah, fellow Turbo owners. Lets blow this up tonight and show we arent a tiny fragment of Moto users. Or not. The reality is we need to make our voices heard. Maybe Moto will listen. Probably not. But hey, its live. Might be fun.
Stock is... stock. It's the closest thing to vanilla android without buying a nexus, which is what I wanted.
If you wanted something more exciting, you should've bought a more exciting phone.
I'm guessing that the OP means an unlocked bootloader and root access for custom ROMs, that kind of stock boring like stuffs...
SirBindy said:
Stock is... stock. It's the closest thing to vanilla android without buying a nexus, which is what I wanted.
If you wanted something more exciting, you should've bought a more exciting phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Indeed. Unfortunately, I didn't buy this phone. Moto sent it as a replacement for my Dev Maxx. The Turbo owners that dont have the same mentality perhaps would agree. it blows to be stuck if you want more than that out of android. isnt that what android is supposed to be? open, free?
@Wynnded is hitting the nail on the head. best hardware ive owned. the software is my qualm.
here is the reality, though: Bootloader unlock isnt allowed due to Verizon not wanting to give support (and replacements) once the inexperienced do something dumb. (flash wrong device files, delete partitions that are necessary, etc). while i can understand that angle, i, and most people that frequent this site, am/are knowledgeable enough to not end up with a brick, and also, in that event, would never turn to VZW or Moto for help, as they are useless. Aesthetically, this phone is great. Hardware (minus those pesky qfuses) this is a great device. i love the Turbo. Having no justifiable reason for bootloader unlock to be disallowed is just bad business. our very small, in representation and subsequent consideration group accepts these practices. i for one, will buy no more Moto devices, period after this one, unless they remember what a developer edition Droid is. if i have to buy a license, or void my warranty, so be it. Both Verizon and Moto should care about the impact to the brand.
Want to help? Cool. Dont? also cool. Just remember, no one ever changed anything for the better sitting by complacently. #unlockthedroids
edit: okay, so perhaps i should have said no more Moto on VZW, as I cannot stand the thought of not having their antennae quality..
#pacifists
Easy fix
What they should do is allow you to opt out of manufacturer warranty and insurance in trade for unlocks. I would happily give those things up as I have such a rare need for them especially in the days of glass screen protectors and repair options
kitcostantino said:
here is the reality, though: Bootloader unlock isnt allowed due to Verizon not wanting to give support (and replacements) once the inexperienced do something dumb. (flash wrong device files, delete partitions that are necessary, etc). while i can understand that angle, i, and most people that frequent this site, am/are knowledgeable enough to not end up with a brick, and also, in that event, would never turn to VZW or Moto for help, as they are useless. Aesthetically, this phone is great. Hardware (minus those pesky qfuses) this is a great device. i love the Turbo. Having no justifiable reason for bootloader unlock to be disallowed is just bad business. our very small, in representation and subsequent consideration group accepts these practices. i for one, will buy no more Moto devices, period after this one, unless they remember what a developer edition Droid is. if i have to buy a license, or void my warranty, so be it. Both Verizon and Moto should care about the impact to the brand.
Want to help? Cool. Dont? also cool. Just remember, no one ever changed anything for the better sitting by complacently. #unlockthedroids
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Click to collapse
Yes but your qualms have been discussed IN LARGE with Verizon multiple times in the past. The locked bootloader has NOTHING to do with Motorola. Hence why all their other devices outsize VZW are unlockable. Getting verbal with VZW or Moto will do literally nothing. You're not the first one to try and "change the world". Here's the simple break-down - VERIZON WOULD RATHER NOT CARRY THE DEVICE AT ALL THAN ALLOW THE BOOTLOADER UNLOCKED ON THEIR NETWORK. PERIOD. They would also 100% rather you leave their network than unlock a device. They've made it very very very very very VERY clear. If you threaten to "unlock my bootloader or I'm gone!" they'll gladly sweep your a$$ right out the door and laugh at you the whole way out. The second thing you're misinterpreting is that while it may seem the rooting/roming crowd is large and lots of people on XDA etc, fact of the matter is that Verizon has 135,000,000 subscribers. 135 MILLION!! Guess how many actually want an unlocked bootloader? Lets say there are thousands!? Lets say 10,000 (very largely over-exaggerated number). That means that even if you manage to get to that 10,000 figure, you're thinking that 0.000074% of users are going to think they're verbal/angry enough to change the policy...... Think again. Its partially why the Nexus 4 and Nexus 5 devices were shunned away by VZW, and one (of the many) issues they had with the Galaxy Nexus. Also why they tried to not carry the Nexus 7 (remember that wonderful delay?).
Don't get me wrong, I probably want unlocked bootloaders more than you do. But don't buy devices from VZW expecting anything other than what the delivered software configuration will allow you. Be thankful you were even given the option of a Nexus 6, it'll likely be the last unlockable device for another 3 years.
I had started typing and quoting in a douchebag fashion that reminded me of someone else. ( @LeoD you know what i mean)
The short version is this, man. I didn't buy the Turbo. I was "upgraded" to it. (see above). Do I think i make a difference directly? nope. I think I am (and most of us here as well are) the kind of person who drives tech outlets to report new devices. I am the guy everyone I know asks first what to buy. Sure, my $100/month isnt much. Ultimately, I am a customer. You want my business or you dont. When I shelled out $700 for a Dev Edition, I had that in mind. I could have bought anything. I chose Moto. I chose Verizon because their network is superior. There always is a balance or tradeoff. Moto dev sucks? Cool. Next. HTC? Sony? Samsung? LG? We have no shortage of hardware. I can learn to live with Wifi. Hell, i don't answer my phone when it rings most of the time. As far as the hooplah about Nexus devices and Verizon, the one thing to look at is the fact that the Nexus 6 is completely unlockable and unfettered on VZW. We can thank google for that, though, i am sure. I would love a Nexus 6 at this point.
I may want bl unlock just a hair more than you, brother.
TechSavvy2 said:
Y the matter is that Verizon has 135,000,000 subscribers. 135 MILLION!! Guess how many actually want an unlocked bootloader? Lets say there are thousands!? Lets say 10,000 (very largely over-exaggerated number). That means that even if you manage to get to that 10,000 figure, you're thinking that 0.000074% of users are going to think they're verbal/angry enough to change the policy...... Think again. Its partially why the Nexus 4 and Nexus 5 devices were shunned away by VZW, and one (of the many) issues they had with the Galaxy Nexus. Also why they tried to not carry the Nexus 7 (remember that wonderful delay?).
Don't get me wrong, I probably want unlocked bootloaders more than you do. But don't buy devices from VZW expecting anything other than what the delivered software configuration will allow you. Be thankful you were even given the option of a Nexus 6, it'll likely be the last unlockable device for another 3 years.
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Small numbers can have big business impact. See social media. An act such as shaming on Twitter CAN have larger PR consequences, especially if other tech media take up the refrain.
Some businesses actually LOOK for alpha individuals (there's word I can't find right now) who help shape decisions of people in their social circle and they get freebies to plug that company. Some early YouTube "shopping stars" cashed in on that. Same concept.
Verizon may be huge and arrogant, but T-mobile is the young/hip crowd. If Verizon wants to change that perception -- perhaps if the T-mobile/Dish merger goes through and causes more competition -- then Verizon would consider some adjustments for a people like us who spread word of mouth to friends/relatives about what to buy/not to buy.
I am extremely surprised the Nexus 6 is not only allowed on Verizon (thank the FCC), but sold by Verizon (not sure why).
I had started typing and quoting in a douchebag fashion that reminded me of someone else. ( @LeoD you know what i mean)
Rotflmao!!
I had a difficult time keeping my coffee down while reading this.
On topic tho, I also believe we should not just go quietly into the night. Big changes are almost always started in small numbers. Thankfully.
The problem is that VZW does not want to give customers anything that they could charge them for. Which really is odd that they don't let us buy a bootloader unlock, but odds are that it would be less revenue then what they make off selling tethering. If it came with less drawbacks for them then positives they would let us unlock in a heartbeat. VZW is a full slave to the $ pound, and won't do a dang thing unless it gets them more $.
Sadly I speak cooperate a bit better than I wish I did, so I bet it would end up being something like this to unlock your bootloader.
- Must not have unlimited data plan.
- Must have tethering data plan.
- Void any and all warranty
- $50 one time pay for Verizon device bootloader unlock.
- Device must be fully paid for.
- Must install custom Verizon recovery.
I'm sure they would think of something else to tack onto it so as to cost us more $.
TechSavvy2 said:
The locked bootloader has NOTHING to do with Motorola.
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All Moto has to do is designate or sell a Developer Edition to comply with the agreement VZW and Moto have in regard to Bootloader Unlock. Well, and grow a pair against VZW and sell to all the other carriers. I bet they are kicking themselves for making any concessions for Verizon looking at the global sales of the Moto Maxx xt1225 versus the Droid Turbo.
TechSavvy2 said:
VERIZON WOULD RATHER NOT CARRY THE DEVICE AT ALL THAN ALLOW THE BOOTLOADER UNLOCKED ON THEIR NETWORK. PERIOD.
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NEXUS 6 what?
TechSavvy2 said:
They would also 100% rather you leave their network than unlock a device. They've made it very very very very very VERY clear. If you threaten to "unlock my bootloader or I'm gone!" they'll gladly sweep your a$$ right out the door and laugh at you the whole way out.
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Yes. Me and my $100/month *can* in fact go elsewhere. No big loss to their corporate dividends. Ultimately, I am their customer, and if they have no interest in retention (i have no delusion here, man), then my money will be spent elsewhere.
TechSavvy2 said:
The second thing you're misinterpreting is that while it may seem the rooting/roming crowd is large and lots of people on XDA etc, fact of the matter is that Verizon has 135,000,000 subscribers. 135 MILLION!! Guess how many actually want an unlocked bootloader? Lets say there are thousands!? Lets say 10,000 (very largely over-exaggerated number). That means that even if you manage to get to that 10,000 figure, you're thinking that 0.000074% of users are going to think they're verbal/angry enough to change the policy......
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Indeed, if my intent were to speak sharply and pound my fist at them, there would be no reason to make such a small subset of people happy. My intent, however, is to plant seeds in the minds of others. In an average year, I advise somewhere in the realm of 20-30 people on phones, services, etc. The majority of our minute subset of users who want control of their device all likely do the same. Come to think of it, I would almost bet that out of our users, the majority are the go-to person that friends, family, colleagues, and often in my case, total strangers may be advised out of chance. Perhaps my $$ isn't worth that much. Our word of mouth, however, is taken by those ask for it to be valid.
Social media, also, is a beautiful tool for conveyance. Has a bit of a magnified result when trying to make others aware.
TechSavvy2 said:
Think again. Its partially why the Nexus 4 and Nexus 5 devices were shunned away by VZW, and one (of the many) issues they had with the Galaxy Nexus. Also why they tried to not carry the Nexus 7 (remember that wonderful delay?).
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And despite all of that, the VZW Nexus 6 is unfettered, bootloader unlockable, and all.
TechSavvy2 said:
Don't get me wrong, I probably want unlocked bootloaders more than you do.
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I am starting to doubt that one, man. lol.
TechSavvy2 said:
But don't buy devices from VZW expecting anything other than what the delivered software configuration will allow you.
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From earlier in the thread:
kitcostantino said:
Indeed. Unfortunately, I didn't buy this phone. Moto sent it as a replacement for my Dev Maxx.
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TechSavvy2 said:
Be thankful you were even given the option of a Nexus 6, it'll likely be the last unlockable device for another 3 years.
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I would be ecstatic to have a Nexus 6 at this point. Again, I didn't choose the Turbo. Just got stuck with it.
The reality is, while we might be "lucky" to have the N6 as an option, we are the customers. We are not required to keep our service where it is. We are not required to endorse the manufacturers we do. I love Moto. Moto can play the game of appeasement with Verizon if it just has to be a "Developer Edition" to have bl unlock. A phone can be rebranded whatever "dev edition" with an accessory package and a decal and still hold to the terms of their agreement. Hell If there are so few of us, why not. Not like we are going to need anything from Verizon. (help? whats that?)
Not trying to be a richard, dude. Just reminded myself of an annoying ace person w/ all the quotes. @LeoD you feel me.
At the end of the day, it makes no real difference. I just know the products and services I will and will not be telling my mostly tech-inept friends, family, colleagues, to grab when, as they always do, they ask. Motos phones and Verizon's network have always been at the top of that list. All kings (and emperors) fall eventually from such lofty heights.
Edit #472:
Technogen said:
The problem is that VZW does not want to give customers anything that they could charge them for. Which really is odd that they don't let us buy a bootloader unlock, but odds are that it would be less revenue then what they make off selling tethering.
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They would never have sold Developer Editions if this were their mentality. The things that are supported as rationale (if you dig a bit) are the sheer cost of support coupled with wanting us to only be so happy with our devices for so long. BL unlocked Turbo? I might keep it for 3 years like my OG (bl unlocked!) Droid. Tethering, while a way to generate extra revenue is $20/month. I never use it, but i have pushed 31 gb in a month before flashing roms. (man i miss msm8960dt builds) Users like us use incredible amounts of data. There is always a new rom, android version, etc.
Technogen said:
If it came with less drawbacks for them then positives they would let us unlock in a heartbeat. VZW is a full slave to the $ pound, and won't do a dang thing unless it gets them more $.
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I honestly think replacing idiots phones and playing sherpa for the tech inept is as costly as initially argued. The exclusiveness of the Dev Editions prevents the average Joe from buying them, saving countless labor hours, replacements, etc.
Technogen said:
Sadly I speak cooperate a bit better than I wish I did, so I bet it would end up being something like this to unlock your bootloader.
- Must not have unlimited data plan.
- Must have tethering data plan.
- Void any and all warranty
- $50 one time pay for Verizon device bootloader unlock.
- Device must be fully paid for.
- Must install custom Verizon recovery.
I'm sure they would think of something else to tack onto it so as to cost us more $.
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Click to collapse
The only reason I am still with Vzw as of right now is unlimited. I havent changed my plan or gotten a subsidized phone since 2008 when i was forced into paying $30/month whether i wanted to or not. Warranty voiding is standard, unless Moto does, in fact, create Dev edition licenses.
The $50 fee is reasonable. I would even double it. VZW couldnt unlock bl and force a recovery on you, though. fastboot flash recovery.img
I get where youre going with it, though. Verizon (and any good corporation) does what is in its best interests first, customers, next.
I too speak corporate. You always have to have growth. The reality is you never want to lose any customers. Losing the crazies that don't pay their bill, cuss you out, demand things for free just because they are magical snowflakes is a totally justifiable loss. Losing the dorks like me that pay their bill, buy phones at full price, and refer others continuously is not such a good thing. Immediate effects? nope. But here i am posting on a site with (i imagine a couple) of like-minded people of the same or better skill-set.
If they sent you it as a replacement and you are unhappy with the device you should either terminate your contract as they moved outside of it by giving you a different device, or move to a different phone like the Nexus 6. You didn't get stuck with anything, you just choice to not fight for a different option.
after 2.5 months of bs with Moto "Support" i was in effect told that was as good as it gets. "Nexus is not an option" was said more times than I care to count. I even bought another phone to use in the meantime, just to be able to wait it out. Again, I have had no contract since the time before Android. Principle is the only thing that bound me to either VZW or Moto up until now.
OK so we have established that moto/vzw will be motivated to allow unlock when it would make them more money than it would cost them. What about if it gains them loads of excellent PR? What if we attacked it from the angle of "future developers" that are being held back because they can't unlock the device they have so they can learn mobile development and possibly change the world / develop the next big thing / improve themselves. And they can't afford the "dev" edition phones that they have to pay full price for. Maybe a social media campaign with a tagline like "unleash the developers of tomorrow " and #unleashtheDOT ? We all know a simple rallying cry can bring people in who may not fully understand but know enough to know it's a good thing and if it spreads far enough (and things that could help people - especially young people - learn tend to spread) they will have to respond.
Absolutely! the whole #unlockthedroids thing kind of fell flat. so did the petition. Then Mofo happened and everyone became content. Personally, I like the angle. I do see a couple of caveats within trying to get them to unlock subsidized phones that will likely prove insurmountable, but I do have a background in media production...
[ 5 year old watching Dad play Angry Birds...Mom calls dad into other room...Kid A picks up phone/starts to press buttons/is delighted when the UI responds. Accidentally stumbles into About Phone and presses Build Number 7 times. Mouths word/ "Developer?" ..
[scene fades, camera centered, zooming in to the word "Developer"...
[Camera tight, zoomed, scrolls through 10 calander years with glimpses of (Moto if ya ask me) phones and android wearables as double frame images spliced in, seasons, and typical holidays meshed in as well.] Kid A, now 15, runs out to the mailbox and grabs a box out of it.
Runs inside the house and pulls out components for Moto Ara-esque modular. Kid A assembles phone in a few swift movements. Then places it on the table. He says, "Wake up."
[The phone speeds through an intense boot ani for 3 seconds, then halts]
[The phone projects on the wall the homescreen, and is navigated by the hand the kids watch is on with swipes in the air. Kid A smiles sinisterly as he loads Angry Birds. ]
[Black screen with white text: "The Developers of tomorrow are taking their first steps in Android today. The possibilities are endless if these minds can grow these seeds into something more."
[secondary scene of 2020]
Kid A goes to mailbox, opens it up. Runs inside. Pulls out block phone. Swipes (manually) through screens. Tries to change colors, and a big lock and skull/crossbones pops up. NOT ALLOWED!! in bright red letters. kid throws phone in drawer. (with Turbo. lol)
#unleashtomorrow
#droiddoesntdev
ha ha. i am only partially kidding, man. this is doable.
hotrodwinston said:
OK so we have established that moto/vzw will be motivated to allow unlock when it would make them more money than it would cost them. What about if it gains them loads of excellent PR? What if we attacked it from the angle of "future developers" that are being held back because they can't unlock the device they have so they can learn mobile development and possibly change the world / develop the next big thing / improve themselves. And they can't afford the "dev" edition phones that they have to pay full price for. Maybe a social media campaign with a tagline like "unleash the developers of tomorrow " and #unleashtheDOT ? We all know a simple rallying cry can bring people in who may not fully understand but know enough to know it's a good thing and if it spreads far enough (and things that could help people - especially young people - learn tend to spread) they will have to respond.
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The PR of it wouldn't matter to most people. Last time I saw something on it the average user has downloaded 6 apps to their phone, most pull run with what ever the phone has installed on it. So in the end people just won't care if devs can do something or not. This is just the sad reality of it.
Technogen said:
The PR of it wouldn't matter to most people. Last time I saw something on it the average user has downloaded 6 apps to their phone, most pull run with what ever the phone has installed on it. So in the end people just won't care if devs can do something or not. This is just the sad reality of it.
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You don't attack it from the standpoint of what devs can do but from the standpoint of young people learning - also people in general learning a new skill that could change their lives - this policy of locking things down is preventing people from learning and may be holding back the next Steve Jobs or Bill Gates.
I love vanilla android. I hated my S4 until I figured out how to put vanilla on it. The only reason why I decided to get a Turbo knowing that the bootloader was locked was because it's basically vanilla. I wish more phones were vanilla. So I won't be yelling at Motorola anytime soon, but that's just me.