.... you think this will improve our tablets (thor and apollo) chances of getting more dev time. Specifically unlocking the bootloader. The kindle fire phone has pretty much the same hardware as our tablets so hopefully most tools dev'd for the phone can be ported our way and visa versa. heres to crossing our fingers :fingers-crossed:
gutts10 said:
.... you think this will improve our tablets (thor and apollo) chances of getting more dev time. Specifically unlocking the bootloader. The kindle fire phone has pretty much the same hardware as our tablets so hopefully most tools dev'd for the phone can be ported our way and visa versa. heres to crossing our fingers :fingers-crossed:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The bootloader on this device has already been unlocked. The devs just have not decided to release it. Hopefully that will change very soon and we can really make this tablet hum.
conan1600 said:
The bootloader on this device has already been unlocked. The devs just have not decided to release it. Hopefully that will change very soon and we can really make this tablet hum.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
seriously??? when did this happen?? and why would they not release it?
gutts10 said:
seriously??? when did this happen?? and why would they not release it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2760912&page=7 last page of this thread
conan1600 said:
I mean, with a bootloader unlock and cm or asop or pretty much any custom Rom I feel like this could potentially be the best tablet I've ever owned.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
agreed 100%. best device on the market right now in terms of hardware. lets get this aosp up and running! im gonna refrain from unlocking my tablet till there's a stable rom out. hopefully that doesnt take too long.
gutts10 said:
agreed 100%. best device on the market right now in terms of hardware. lets get this aosp up and running! im gonna refrain from unlocking my tablet till there's a stable rom out. hopefully that doesnt take too long.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd do anything to get off that terrible thing they call FireOS right away.
EncryptedCurse said:
I'd do anything to get off that terrible thing they call FireOS right away.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yea, I hate it. It not something I want to get used to. Before I bought this kindle, I didn't plan on doing any kind of rooting or flashing of ROMs....until I played around with it.
EncryptedCurse said:
I'd do anything to get off that terrible thing they call FireOS right away.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Me too. But for now, we can only burn and wither in the FireOS fireplace. I can't wait to get Play Store, XPOSED, and Safestrap on this machine. I dream of AOSP.
Actually, if it were a phone, it would already be available to the general public.
What some of you may not understand is that the DMCA & more specifically, the LOC exceptions specifically INCLUDE cell phones. Unfortunately, they also very specifically EXCLUDED tablets from the exception. This makes it a crime to unlock the bootloaders on tablet devices. It can actually be pretty serious & aside from any damages that could be potentially awarded via civil action, the fines on the criminal side can be as much as $500,000.00 USD & can also include up to two years imprisonment.
While it likely wouldn't happen, if you happened to do something else that either the government or a manufacturer didn't like, that looms over your head.
The saddest part of this is that there was a "we the people" petition for both cell phones & tablets. The cell phone one acquired the number of signatures required to elicit a White House response, while the tablet petition expired well short of reaching the required number. Until the laws are changed by the legislation, or the new exceptions are released to include tablets, IN 2018, there is very little that can be done.
GSLEON3 said:
Actually, if it were a phone, it would already be available to the general public.
What some of you may not understand is that the DMCA & more specifically, the LOC exceptions specifically INCLUDE cell phones. Unfortunately, they also very specifically EXCLUDED tablets from the exception. This makes it a crime to unlock the bootloaders on tablet devices. It can actually be pretty serious & aside from any damages that could be potentially awarded via civil action, the fines on the criminal side can be as much as $500,000.00 USD & can also include up to two years imprisonment.
While it likely wouldn't happen, if you happened to do something else that either the government or a manufacturer didn't like, that looms over your head.
The saddest part of this is that there was a "we the people" petition for both cell phones & tablets. The cell phone one acquired the number of signatures required to elicit a White House response, while the tablet petition expired well short of reaching the required number. Until the laws are changed by the legislation, or the new exceptions are released to include tablets, IN 2018, there is very little that can be done.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Interesting, I didn't know that. I just did some interesting reading. So I'm assuming this is the reason the bootloader unlock hasn't been released yet. Does this mean it won't ever be released, or is there a way around it?
S_transform said:
Interesting, I didn't know that. I just did some interesting reading. So I'm assuming this is the reason the bootloader unlock hasn't been released yet. Does this mean it won't ever be released, or is there a way around it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd think it's more so of a lacking community. From what I've seen, there's a very limited amount of competent developers capable of even attempting to unlock the bootloader.
Umm From what I understand it is already done.. For the tablets anyway. It just hasn't been released but I am confused on what was said in an earlier [email protected] GSLEON3 If they were going to sue anybody why wasn't anybody's sued when they cracked the HD or the Nook color?
GSLEON3 said:
Actually, if it were a phone, it would already be available to the general public.
What some of you may not understand is that the DMCA & more specifically, the LOC exceptions specifically INCLUDE cell phones. Unfortunately, they also very specifically EXCLUDED tablets from the exception. This makes it a crime to unlock the bootloaders on tablet devices. It can actually be pretty serious & aside from any damages that could be potentially awarded via civil action, the fines on the criminal side can be as much as $500,000.00 USD & can also include up to two years imprisonment.
While it likely wouldn't happen, if you happened to do something else that either the government or a manufacturer didn't like, that looms over your head.
The saddest part of this is that there was a "we the people" petition for both cell phones & tablets. The cell phone one acquired the number of signatures required to elicit a White House response, while the tablet petition expired well short of reaching the required number. Until the laws are changed by the legislation, or the new exceptions are released to include tablets, IN 2018, there is very little that can be done.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
...Because nothing has ever been put on the internet anonymously before
GSLEON3 said:
Actually, if it were a phone, it would already be available to the general public.
What some of you may not understand is that the DMCA & more specifically, the LOC exceptions specifically INCLUDE cell phones. Unfortunately, they also very specifically EXCLUDED tablets from the exception. This makes it a crime to unlock the bootloaders on tablet devices. It can actually be pretty serious & aside from any damages that could be potentially awarded via civil action, the fines on the criminal side can be as much as $500,000.00 USD & can also include up to two years imprisonment.
While it likely wouldn't happen, if you happened to do something else that either the government or a manufacturer didn't like, that looms over your head.
The saddest part of this is that there was a "we the people" petition for both cell phones & tablets. The cell phone one acquired the number of signatures required to elicit a White House response, while the tablet petition expired well short of reaching the required number. Until the laws are changed by the legislation, or the new exceptions are released to include tablets, IN 2018, there is very little that can be done.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually this info is very erroneous. There was no tablet exclusion period. Rather there was no tablet inclusion as they could not come to terms with a suitable definition of what makes a tablet. This battle has already and is still being fought. But your interpretation of the newly founded ruling is in error. Also you will need to understand your terms better. Carrier unlocking a cell phone without the carriers permission is still a crime until such time as the ruling is re visited, this ruling will be upheld for 3 years. Bootloader unlocking, root, and Roms are very much still legal, and actually protected under these new rules for cell phones. There is no law at all in the DMCA ruling for Tablets.
No case has come before courts pending bootloader unlocking on tablets and the law is a grey area as there was no inclusion NOR exclusion made by the DMCA. The DMCA also made it quite clear that they want the American people to be free to customize their phone as they see fit with bootloader unlocks and roms. This ruling also HAS NO BEARING WHATSOEVER on other countries so any unlock coming from any other country is not subject to prosecution even on the carrier unlock for the releasing developer. Simply put, for developers in America, tablets are not specifically protected under the law to be bootloader unlocked, rooted etc. As such a potential law suit could be brought against a developer however there is no legal precedent for a case of that nature. Therefore tablets are still in the same legal limbo that they have ALWAYS been in while phones are protected.
The outcome of a trial on a case such as this would imo be flimsy at best and could prove deadly to the AOSP however, therefore serving to work against Androids best interests. The fines you quoted do in fact go up to 500,000.00 however they are specifically for carrier unlocking NOT bootloader unlocking as no law pertains to it except that it is legal to perform that action on cell phones. Many people and tech blogs have made similarly mistaken conclusions as you have but they as far as I have seen did not make the mistake on fines. Here is an example of one tech who gets it mostly right. http://rescueroot.com/android/is-rooting-android-phones-and-tablets-legal/ . Law is an interesting thing and all laws are designed to be complex but in this case there is simply NO LAW in the DMCA ruling pertaining to tablets.
This ABC article has a pdf with the actual DMCA ruling as well as a write up. http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/now-illegal-unlock-cellphone/story?id=18319518
EncryptedCurse said:
I'd think it's more so of a lacking community. From what I've seen, there's a very limited amount of competent developers capable of even attempting to unlock the bootloader.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
its already been cracked. they have been quoted as saying that they are having trouble implementing it. what that means? i dont know but it could mean they are having trouble monetizing it ($25 per crack is what i heard) or they are having trouble with the actual code of the crack. either way, the crack is official as per some people on these boards that have more cred than me.
conan1600 said:
Actually this info is very erroneous. There was no tablet exclusion period. Rather there was no tablet inclusion as they could not come to terms with a suitable definition of what makes a tablet. This battle has already and is still being fought. But your interpretation of the newly founded ruling is in error. Also you will need to understand your terms better. Carrier unlocking a cell phone without the carriers permission is still a crime until such time as the ruling is re visited, this ruling will be upheld for 3 years. Bootloader unlocking, root, and Roms are very much still legal, and actually protected under these new rules for cell phones. There is no law at all in the DMCA ruling for Tablets.
No case has come before courts pending bootloader unlocking on tablets and the law is a grey area as there was no inclusion NOR exclusion made by the DMCA. The DMCA also made it quite clear that they want the American people to be free to customize their phone as they see fit with bootloader unlocks and roms. This ruling also HAS NO BEARING WHATSOEVER on other countries so any unlock coming from any other country is not subject to prosecution even on the carrier unlock for the releasing developer. Simply put, for developers in America, tablets are not specifically protected under the law to be bootloader unlocked, rooted etc. As such a potential law suit could be brought against a developer however there is no legal precedent for a case of that nature. Therefore tablets are still in the same legal limbo that they have ALWAYS been in while phones are protected.
The outcome of a trial on a case such as this would imo be flimsy at best and could prove deadly to the AOSP however, therefore serving to work against Androids best interests. The fines you quoted do in fact go up to 500,000.00 however they are specifically for carrier unlocking NOT bootloader unlocking as no law pertains to it except that it is legal to perform that action on cell phones. Many people and tech blogs have made similarly mistaken conclusions as you have but they as far as I have seen did not make the mistake on fines. Here is an example of one tech who gets it mostly right. http://rescueroot.com/android/is-rooting-android-phones-and-tablets-legal/ . Law is an interesting thing and all laws are designed to be complex but in this case there is simply NO LAW in the DMCA ruling pertaining to tablets.
This ABC article has a pdf with the actual DMCA ruling as well as a write up. http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/now-illegal-unlock-cellphone/story?id=18319518
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Whatever, I NEVER said there was a tablet exclusion. What I said was tablet were very specifiaclly EXCLUDED, which they were because they found the term "tablet" to be too open to interpretation & too widely encompassing.
There are still other issues that can come into play in regards to unlocking bootloaders, such as modifying other partitions or factors that play into operating a device with an invalid FCC grant (as simple as enabling frequencies not covered under the initial grant, or changing power levels), which is indeed a criminal offense, maybe not related to the DMCA (the act, not the group), but I'm still not sure that is entirely the case, since everything I have read essentially excludes anything not specifically addressed by the exemptions, although I certainly haven't read the entire text of the laws as my schedule hasn't permitted it & frankly, if I have the time to read, I highly doubt it will be legal text.
Regardless, you also have laws regarding bypassing digital locks (untested) & even the exemptions that do apply, they only apply to "where circumvention is accomplished for the sole purpose of enabling interoperability". You still have laws & treaties requiring possible action for possible circumvention of DRM (a big thing for a media distribution giant like Amazon), not to mention protection of IP & competitive secrets that may be protected by said digital locks. As many of these laws have never been tested in court, the only real opinion on the matter (a judge or justice in the US), has never been issued. Either way, I was just passing along the info that one of the devs that successfully unlocked the bootloader shared. Really, for me, it matters not anymore.
As to the 4 years, I was probably mistaken (something some people have no problem admitting), but I was under the impression it is revisited every three years, but not implemented until the following year.
GSLEON3 said:
Whatever, I NEVER said there was a tablet exclusion. What I said was tablet were very specifiaclly EXCLUDED, which they were because they found the term "tablet" to be too open to interpretation & too widely encompassing.
There are still other issues that can come into play in regards to unlocking bootloaders, such as modifying other partitions or factors that play into operating a device with an invalid FCC grant (as simple as enabling frequencies not covered under the initial grant, or changing power levels), which is indeed a criminal offense, maybe not related to the DMCA (the act, not the group), but I'm still not sure that is entirely the case, since everything I have read essentially excludes anything not specifically addressed by the exemptions, although I certainly haven't read the entire text of the laws as my schedule hasn't permitted it & frankly, if I have the time to read, I highly doubt it will be legal text.
Regardless, you also have laws regarding bypassing digital locks (untested) & even the exemptions that do apply, they only apply to "where circumvention is accomplished for the sole purpose of enabling interoperability". You still have laws & treaties requiring possible action for possible circumvention of DRM (a big thing for a media distribution giant like Amazon), not to mention protection of IP & competitive secrets that may be protected by said digital locks. As many of these laws have never been tested in court, the only real opinion on the matter (a judge or justice in the US), has never been issued. Either way, I was just passing along the info that one of the devs that successfully unlocked the bootloader shared. Really, for me, it matters not anymore.
As to the 4 years, I was probably mistaken (something some people have no problem admitting), but I was under the impression it is revisited every three years, but not implemented until the following year.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So then I'm assuming this is affected by the bill passed literally today that reads:
"by adding at the end the following: ``It shall not be a violation of this section to circumvent a technological measure in connection with a work
protected under this title if the purpose of such circumvention is to engage in a use that is not an infringement of copyright under this title.''
As far as I know this does not apply solely to phones, and would apply to tablets and all electronics if I'm reading it correctly. For a link to the bill and the code of law:
bill:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201
the current code:
https://beta.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/house-bill/1892/text
GSLEON3 said:
Whatever, I NEVER said there was a tablet exclusion. What I said was tablet were very specifiaclly EXCLUDED, which they were because they found the term "tablet" to be too open to interpretation & too widely encompassing.
There are still other issues that can come into play in regards to unlocking bootloaders, such as modifying other partitions or factors that play into operating a device with an invalid FCC grant (as simple as enabling frequencies not covered under the initial grant, or changing power levels), which is indeed a criminal offense, maybe not related to the DMCA (the act, not the group), but I'm still not sure that is entirely the case, since everything I have read essentially excludes anything not specifically addressed by the exemptions, although I certainly haven't read the entire text of the laws as my schedule hasn't permitted it & frankly, if I have the time to read, I highly doubt it will be legal text.
Regardless, you also have laws regarding bypassing digital locks (untested) & even the exemptions that do apply, they only apply to "where circumvention is accomplished for the sole purpose of enabling interoperability". You still have laws & treaties requiring possible action for possible circumvention of DRM (a big thing for a media distribution giant like Amazon), not to mention protection of IP & competitive secrets that may be protected by said digital locks. As many of these laws have never been tested in court, the only real opinion on the matter (a judge or justice in the US), has never been issued. Either way, I was just passing along the info that one of the devs that successfully unlocked the bootloader shared. Really, for me, it matters not anymore.
As to the 4 years, I was probably mistaken (something some people have no problem admitting), but I was under the impression it is revisited every three years, but not implemented until the following year.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh but you DID SAY. Furthermore to anyone who has an ounce of brain power everthing you just said in your sad attempt at face saving is garbage. I wont bother pointing out each completely ignorant thing as the level of incompetence is to high for me to waste further time educating you.
conan1600 said:
Oh but you DID SAY. Furthermore to anyone who has an ounce of brain power everthing you just said in your sad attempt at face saving is garbage. I wont bother pointing out each completely ignorant thing as the level of incompetence is to high for me to waste further time educating you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Whatever, go read the law. I know exactly what I said. Why don't you go find someway of being productive instead of just trolling the forum?
GSLEON3 said:
Whatever, go read the law. I know exactly what I said. Why don't you go find someway of being productive instead of just trolling the forum?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When or if I decided to troll you I assure you there will be no doubt. In this case im merely correcting you. If in my educated corrections of your blather, I make you look stupid, or feel like a little boy getting a spanking from his daddy which makes you feel sad and angry then that is an unintended but wholly welcomed consequence that I can live with. Buddy, you dont want to quip with me, you're not nearly on the same level.
Related
Just posted this on the T-mobs forums and some of this is already in the "lets get the kernel thread" but I think we should make a single source for what information HTC is giving us in case this does proceed to legal action, etc. Had to futz a little with the hyperlinks since I'm a new poster to XDA but am not a new user of this blissful place. So here it is...
I call BS on the whole thing.
I've been trying to get HTC to release the source code and also bringing up the shenanigans that they pulled on us all with this root block and internal memory bait and switch crap. Here is my dealings with HTC so far. Love the blame game they switch at the end of our discussion. I know this is a lot to read but trust me that this back and forth is quite entertaining.
MY 1ST HTC MESSAGE
To whom it may pertain to... Just purchased a HTC T-mobile G2 aka HTC Vision and have been a avid HTC supporter for quite sometime. Ever since I owned my first HTC device the codenamed blueangel. The fact that HTC would work with the developer community pulled me toward your devices. I can't believe you guys (HTC) would lock down the successor to the device that helped you start the "open" revolution. I know it was most probably T-mobile that made you do it but that is besides the point. Especially since they have blamed you in the press. You have spit it the face of the developer community and shame on you and T-mobile. This protection will be broken I have no doubt of that but the fact that HTC put it there at all is what is in question. Please don't make this a race of protection...hack...protection...hack. OPEN means we should work together not against each other. So please do the right thing and help us either root these devices or give us the kernel source to help us along. Or even better do both of the above and show you respect the dev community like we all thought you did. Below I have included the first post of a stream that will become a torrent against HTC from the XDA devs. Thanks for your cooperation.
MY 1ST HTC REPLY
We cannot comment on whether or not HTC has blocked any customer from rooting or hacking their phone. Rooting the phone may open the phone up to virus attacks and other un-secure activities, as well as introduce intended functionality, and as such is very difficult for us to support. We cannot comment on whether or not HTC, Google, or T-Mobile has blocked any customer from rooting or hacking their phone. All three companies work very closely to bring you the best experience on the phone possible. I do understand how important it is to be able to use your device to the best of its capabilities. We are not withholding the kernel; we are currently working through the legal channels that we must go through to make the kernel available to you. Each product is individually under review. When the kernel is available, you will be able to find it on developer.htc.com. I apologize for any inconvenience you may have experienced, and thank you for your patience in this matter.
MY 2ND HTC MESSAGE
I understand the position of HTC to not comment on the situation at hand even though it has already been outed in the press by T-mobile that HTC did indeed lock the phone. So either you are saying that the T-mobile press release was a hoax and HTC did nothing with write protection or HTC just want's the problem to go away. As far as not wanting us to root because of unsafe activities.... Well I don't even know where to start with that comment. We are all big boys and girls and can handle the effect of our actions. It's like saying Toyota installed a system in my car that will only let a certified technician open the hood because I may insert washer fluid into the engine instead of oil. Most companies would love it if you would void your warranty. Does it not lead to less operating cost for HTC in the long run to not support it's products because the warranties are void? You don't want me to void my warranty then do as the GPS companies do and make a disclaimer that I have to read and agree to before I go any further. Also on the subject of voiding warranties did HTC not say that G2 had 4gb's of internal storage? Yet only 1.2gb are available for use because of this lock? Back to the car analogies. If Ford says your car has 200 horse power in the brochure and (AFTER!!!!) you buy it you learn that only 50 horse power is unlocked you might be a little angry. No? I understand the position of all big companies is to play dumb until something either is forgotten or legal channels make them play smart but I do have to say that I did not expect this out of HTC. This post isn't directed at you Sarah but merely my G2 and thousands of others crippled devices. If you could pass this and my prior message to someone higher up that might at least read it and think it over it would be greatly appreciated.
MY 2ND HTC REPLY
Thank you for contacting HTC Technical Assistance Center. I do understand your desire to fully explore the G2’s potential. Let me try and address your concerns one by one. In regards to your request for source code, HTC will typically publish on developer.htc the Kernel open source code for recently released devices. HTC will normally publish this within 90 to 120 days. This time frame is within the requirements of the open source community. As for your concerns about the internal memory space, the space listed on the box and in advertisements is the total storage capacity of the phone, and in fact does exist in the phone. The majority of the space is being used to make sure your phone is running at optimal performance levels. If you require more space, you can use the provided SD Card to add media and other files. Our SD card reader can support up to 16gb of extended storage. Try and look at it along the lines of your computer. Just because on a floppy disk you had 1.44 mb of space didn’t ever mean you could use all that. There was always an amount of space you could never use. This is true for any computer type related device with storage. Big or small there’s always an amount of “floating” space needed. At this point we will be happy to document your concern with the current release state of the phone. Your concerns are being forwarded to the proper departments. Beyond the information provided, however, we would have nothing additional to release
MY 3RD HTC MESSAGE
Ummm. The reply on the 1.44mb floppy is just crazy out of bounds. Yes I understand that if I install a 1tb drive on my computer some 100mb's or so may be floating but not 500 gigs of my drive!!! You guys commandeered over HALF of the internal storage of the G2. That's just crazy. Also on the (right?) that you have to release the source code in 90-120 days.... Who made up that number? Certainly not the GPL you are supposed to adhere to. An excerpt from freedom-to-tinker talking about the G2 source code. "Perhaps HTC (and T-Mobile, distributor of the phone) should review the actual contents of the GNU Public License (v2), which stipulate the legal requirements for modifying and redistributing Linux. They state that you may only distribute derivative code if you accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code." Notably, there is no mention of a "grace period" or the like. The importance of redistributing source code in a timely fashion goes beyond enabling phone rooting. It is the foundation of the "copyleft" regime of software licensing that has led to the flourishing of the open source software ecosystem. If every useful modification required waiting 90 to 120 days to be built upon, it would have taken eons to get to where we are today. It's one thing for a company to choose to pursue the closed-source model and to start from scratch, but it's another thing for it to profit from the goodwill of the open source community while imposing arbitrary and illegal restrictions on the code." Please release the code. =)
MY 3RD HTC REPLY
I understand how this can be frustrating for you. To start, we are aware of a situation where the phone is not properly reflecting the correct amount of storage available on the device and we are working with T-Mobile to figure out why this is happening and how to resolve it. I appreciate your patience with it. Next, we provide a timeframe of 90-120 days for the release of the source code as a courtesy for our customer. Unfortunately, HTC Technical Support has no control over what is or is not published on our website and we can only forward the requests to our software developement team and website administrator. The code will be released and when it is you may find it on our developer website. Unfortuantely, my office only handles the technical troubleshooting of our devices stock software and hardware. I do apologize for any inconvenience that you may have experienced through this.
I SMELL WEAK SAUCE ALL OVER THIS!!!!
Are you emailing HTC America about this? Not sure what you think that will accomplish given that none of their low level engineering is done in the US. Also, what's with the rage over root? Did the labelling on your G2 box promise root or bootloader access? I thought we all went into this with the assumption this would be a consumer device and as such was fair game for any sort of anti-cracking protection.
It's not really about the protection on the device as it is that they have to release the source code when they release the devices. HTC is getting out of hand with this. Google HTC GPL violation and you'll see what I mean.
Also the box did say that it had 4gb of internal storage. That turned out to be as true as me saying "I have a 12 inch **** but only when I have a certain signed key unlockable erection."
simobile said:
It's not really about the protection on the device as it is that they have to release the source code when they release the devices. HTC is getting out of hand with this. Google HTC GPL violation and you'll see what I mean.
Also the box did say that it had 4gb of internal storage. That turned out to be as true as me saying "I have a 12 inch **** but only when I have a certain signed key unlockable erection."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lmfaooooooooooo i died reading this man hahahahahaha im in tears man. but that is true tho. what shocked is that this guys actually read and replied your messages. unbelievable, i would have thought they would send you one of those monotone messages like "thanks for contacting us, we appreciate your concern and we will get back to you type bologne " this shows that htc aint that bad but this still sucks, for now. two things lead me to believe that its gonna get rooted permanently:
1: this phone is bound to have updates which obviously isnt the stock that the phone came with. if this was a computer chip or whatever then any phone that comes with it wont recieve any updates because it will return to original way it came in the box right?
2: it will be really pointless releasing the source code if it wouldnt help with the rooting.
im not the best when it comes with source codes and rooting, im just thinking out loud is all. feel free to correct me.
Well done. The one thing that bugs me about HTC is that they make the hardware not the OS. It’s not like I'm opening the phone to change out chip sets. What I think we need is a well written stock letter that every member of XDA can e-mail by the masses to HTC and T-Mobile demanding them to release the open source code they use in there, so called “everything you” devices.
One person is noisy but a thousand or more is deafening.
what shocked is that this guys actually read and replied your messages. unbelievable, i would have thought they would send you one of those monotone messages like "thanks for contacting us, we appreciate your concern and we will get back to you type bologne "
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do agree that I was also shocked that they were actually responding to my messages instead of some generic corportate bs. So I do give them Kudos for that.
Well done. The one thing that bugs me about HTC is that they make the hardware not the OS. It’s not like I'm opening the phone to change out chip sets. What I think we need is a well written stock letter that every member of XDA can e-mail by the masses to HTC and T-Mobile demanding them to release the open source code they use in there, so called “everything you” devices.
One person is noisy but a thousand or more is deafening.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is kinda what I envisioned for this thread. You could share your experiences with HTC or Tmobile if you have already contacted them and If you haven't hopefully it would prompt you too. I would like them to come out in November and say that that 90% of device complaint calls / emails were from the G2. Unrealistic I know but I can dream.
... Why do people keep bringing up the GPL? AFAIK, Android isn't released under the GPL. It's Apache licensed.
And even for the GPL, there's never been a 'the -instant- you release a product, the source must be there' - it's a 'you have to make the source available' (again, this is GPL, -not- Apache, just pointing out). That can be in the form of punch cards delivered via mule, if they want.
The GPL has many vagueness issues like this (or at least, v2 did, v3 fixed some of it, but who uses v3?).
I'd say HTC's being fairly good about it, in that they release the source at all, given that the Apache license doesn't require it.
I doubt they are withholding it just because they have nothing better to do. If you've ever worked with a large company, I'm sure you're aware of how the easiest tasks can take weeks of paper work and general BS to get done...
While I agree they should have it out a bit quicker, I'm really getting annoyed at all the whining (not necessarily directed at this thread). Most of the complaints are valid, but I wish people would just relax.
Despite the rooting issues, the "hidden" memory, hinge not being as firm as people want, etc...I still am happy with the phone. There's some preinstalled junk, but nothing like practically every other phone on the market. The hardware is nice, and there's already an update despite how new the phone is.
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk
Ditto
Jorsher said:
I doubt they are withholding it just because they have nothing better to do. If you've ever worked with a large company, I'm sure you're aware of how the easiest tasks can take weeks of paper work and general BS to get done...
While I agree they should have it out a bit quicker, I'm really getting annoyed at all the whining (not necessarily directed at this thread). Most of the complaints are valid, but I wish people would just relax.
Despite the rooting issues, the "hidden" memory, hinge not being as firm as people want, etc...I still am happy with the phone. There's some preinstalled junk, but nothing like practically every other phone on the market. The hardware is nice, and there's already an update despite how new the phone is.
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Second that!
shograt said:
... Why do people keep bringing up the GPL? AFAIK, Android isn't released under the GPL. It's Apache licensed.
And even for the GPL, there's never been a 'the -instant- you release a product, the source must be there' - it's a 'you have to make the source available' (again, this is GPL, -not- Apache, just pointing out). That can be in the form of punch cards delivered via mule, if they want.
The GPL has many vagueness issues like this (or at least, v2 did, v3 fixed some of it, but who uses v3?).
I'd say HTC's being fairly good about it, in that they release the source at all, given that the Apache license doesn't require it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your right about android being apache, that's why they can have closed source things like sense. HOWEVER the kernel is infact a moddified linux kernel, which in fact falls under GPLv2. According to the GPL violations angency has stated that they are infact in viaolation.
And simobile glad you started this thread, seems people were more concerned with my grammer the the problem at hand here...
Knock this **** off before HTC stops making quality phones for us because of little ****s like you. Sit back and wait, the phone's only been out a week. Quit ruining it for everyone else.
SuperDave81 said:
Knock this **** off before HTC stops making quality phones for us because of little ****s like you. Sit back and wait, the phone's only been out a week. Quit ruining it for everyone else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As someone who gives his hard earned money to HTC, how does he not have the right to ask them whatever he wants? If they don't respond, or blow him off, it'll turn a lot of us off HTC.
He isn't ruining anything other than your little bubble which I'm pretty sure no one else cares about.
One thing about their reply - they said the microSD card was max 16 gb. Whatever happened to the 32gb their other phones can read? Was this an error by customer services?
I know there is quite a few holes in the responses they gave me... 16gb vs 32gb, a bug that tmob and them are working on to fix missing memory? Quite odd indeed. Despite all those things I would urge everyone to send them a message and please post responses here. I'd like this to stay topical and not become a "oh I have a me too trolling comment in my head so let me reply" So please go to the link below and shoot them a message if you have a complaint about all this. The more people that do the better chance we won't have to sit back and wait 90-120 days for this source. It's super simple and they seem to respond pretty quick.
http://www.htc.com/www/about_htc_bymail.aspx
Man people are really butt hurt over everything not being perfect on launch day over this phone. Holy ****...
I mean come on guys. If your biggest problem is a lack of source code and part of the internal memory is supposedly missing then your life really isn't all that bad.
I'd like to think if the worst thing going on in my life is I'm mad at a cell phone then my life is at an all star level compared to most people.
Man people are really butt hurt over everything not being perfect on launch day over this phone. Holy ****...
I mean come on guys. If your biggest problem is a lack of source code and part of the internal memory is supposedly missing then your life really isn't all that bad.
I'd like to think if the worst thing going on in my life is I'm mad at a cell phone then my life is at an all star level compared to most people.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Congratulations you win a bridge....You can live under it and charge people as they pass over. Jesus Christ your thoughts are so important go ahead and spill them.
Plus you might be interested in my new site
www.XDA-i<3-stockdevices.com
Since that's all the trolls seem interested in.
simobile said:
Congratulations you win a bridge....You can live under it and charge people as they pass over. Jesus Christ your thoughts are so important go ahead and spill them.
Plus you might be interested in my new site
www.XDA-i<3-stockdevices.com
Since that's all the trolls seem interested in.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ummm, wtf?
Funny how when a post doesn't adhere to the topic at hand it makes people go WTF? Now ask yourself did your post have anything to do with the topic of this thread? Or anything to do with the want to modify or dev a device?
SuperFly03 said:
Man people are really butt hurt over everything not being perfect on launch day over this phone. Holy ****...
I mean come on guys. If your biggest problem is a lack of source code and part of the internal memory is supposedly missing then your life really isn't all that bad.
I'd like to think if the worst thing going on in my life is I'm mad at a cell phone then my life is at an all star level compared to most people.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Uhm, I spend $500 on a new phone, and I can't even count on the stupid thing to stay running through the day? Yeah, I'd consider that something to be pissed about. I've owned many HTC devices over the years, and have bought most of them outright in the release week. NEVER have I had one with as many issues as the G2. I took it back today, and told them even if they fix all these issues (screen, memory, random reboots and lockups, and trackpad spazzing out) I doubt I'd pick another one up.
I've got a funny feeling, that some of these issues tie directly into the locking down of rooting on this phone as well... Whether it be technical, or they just wasted all their time locking it down rather than doing some basic Q&A, it's a pretty big issue.
So yeah, I don't advise you coming in here and telling people that it is no big deal that a device that costs as much as a new laptop doesn't work worth ****.
SuperFly03 said:
Ummm, wtf?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
haha, just saw this. WTF are you doing on XDA if you don't want to mod your device?
This shows that the chip issue is bothering more than just consumers. Hopefully this pressure will help us maintain control over our phones.
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-sour...r-android-becoming-a-political-liability/7588
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using XDA App
Ghostcreamy said:
This shows that the chip issue is bothering more than just consumers. Hopefully this pressure will help us maintain control over our phones.
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-sour...r-android-becoming-a-political-liability/7588
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
*sigh*
What chip issue exactly?
Stick it to Google, T-mobile... The cellphone manufacturers are starting to imprint chips to bypass any OS modifications... I can clearly say "it's only a matter of time until this cheapy little chip is cracked."
At this point it really doesn't matter if its a chip, a bug or bad juju big brother is starting to take notice and that is good for us.
Wow, so why doesn't anyone ever bring up the Droid X? Or this this just mainly a ploy to take aim at T-mobile?
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using XDA App
This is indeed very good news for the customer (like us) who like to do more than just accept how the phone comes. Keep up the pressure people! =)
krayshunist said:
*sigh*
What chip issue exactly?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Seconded.
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using XDA App
janus zeal said:
Seconded.
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This chip is why we cant have Perma Root. Look for Root thread and you will see what i mean and a much better explanation hehe
Ehh... this article is bull****. It's just some more hype written by another Android user for ZDNet. If you look at the sourced article, it does not mention any impending predicament for Schmidt and barely talks about Google. This just hype... for example:
The ZDnet author writes in his article:
It is now obvious that it’s the latter step Google took with Android and folks in Washington are starting to take notice.
The cited article doesn't mention a political quandary headed by Google. It can be summarized well by the last sentence. And the only relevance to Google and Schmidt in that article is a short blurb referring to another blog post on the same site.
The fundamental question the FCC now needs to answer is not if developers will find a way around the latest blocks, but if companies should be allowed to continue actively blocking users from truly owning and having full control over the mobile devices they buy in the first place.
and
On Tuesday October 5, 2010 the New America Foundation posted a blog highlighting a new “feature” of the T-Mobile's G2 with Google phone (G2).
Following that link takes us to the New American Foundation site which posted the following on Oct 5th (with an update on the 7th):
Unfortunately, the G2 also comes with built-in hardware that restricts what software a device owner might wish to install.
and
Clearly, the included software on T-Mobile's phone overrides a user's rights to run the legal software and applications of their choice. Instead, a microchip on the new T-Mobile Android phone acts just like a virus -- overwriting a user's preferred software and changing preferences and settings to change settings and software to conform to the desires of a third party. Users of the new "T-Mobile G2 with Google" phone should be warned that their device will overwrite their software modifications. We are seeking further clarification as to the legality of this software.
As you can see this is between the FCC, T-Mobile and possibly HTC. I don't foresee Google taking any real interest in this because it can only cost them money. Sure Google has made some noble contributions, but how much can they gain from protecting their interests? Not an awful much in this case. Mobile phone manufacturers and network providers will keep using the Android operating system. And the fact that Google licensed the Android operating system does not readily mean they are entitled to enforce it.
If you are interested in the legality of enforcing a license like the GPL, I highly suggest reading: http://www.jltp.uiuc.edu/archives/kumar.pdf
Here's a blurb that describes the predicament:
Two competing theories attempt to explain why the GPL is
enforceable. The first theory, backed by the GPL’s creator Richard
Stallman, declares that the GPL is a non-contractual license, rather than
a contract. Eben Moglen, general counsel for Stallman’s Free Software
Foundation (“FSF”), has stated that “[l]icenses are not contracts: the
work’s user is obliged to remain within the bounds of the license not
because she voluntarily promised, but because she doesn’t have any right
to act at all except as the license permits.”28 This theory presents
problems, because it does not account for the possibility of the licensor
withdrawing the license to the detriment of the licensee. Draft 2 of GPL
v.3 states that “[a]ll rights granted under this License are granted for the
term of copyright on the Program, and are irrevocable provided the stated
conditions are met.”29 However, the draft provides no guidance regarding
what kind of legal remedy is available to a licensee if the licensor
attempts to revoke previously granted rights.
The second theory holds that the GPL is a contract. This theory is
plausible, because traditional software licenses are generally interpreted
as contracts. But such licenses also have cash consideration. Contract
proponents argue that consideration does exist under the GPL. But
ultimately, they are unable to show that there is a meeting of minds
between the licensor and licensee, thus failing the requirements of
contract formation.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
funkeee said:
Ehh... this article is bull****. It's just some more hype written by another Android user for ZDNet. If you look at the sourced article, it does not mention any impending predicament for Schmidt and barely talks about Google. This just hype... for example:
The ZDnet author writes in his article:
It is now obvious that it’s the latter step Google took with Android and folks in Washington are starting to take notice.
The cited article doesn't mention a political quandary headed by Google. It can be summarized well by the last sentence. And the only relevance to Google and Schmidt in that article is a short blurb referring to another blog post on the same site.
The fundamental question the FCC now needs to answer is not if developers will find a way around the latest blocks, but if companies should be allowed to continue actively blocking users from truly owning and having full control over the mobile devices they buy in the first place.
and
On Tuesday October 5, 2010 the New America Foundation posted a blog highlighting a new “feature” of the T-Mobile's G2 with Google phone (G2).
Following that link takes us to the New American Foundation site which posted the following on Oct 5th (with an update on the 7th):
Unfortunately, the G2 also comes with built-in hardware that restricts what software a device owner might wish to install.
and
Clearly, the included software on T-Mobile's phone overrides a user's rights to run the legal software and applications of their choice. Instead, a microchip on the new T-Mobile Android phone acts just like a virus -- overwriting a user's preferred software and changing preferences and settings to change settings and software to conform to the desires of a third party. Users of the new "T-Mobile G2 with Google" phone should be warned that their device will overwrite their software modifications. We are seeking further clarification as to the legality of this software.
As you can see this is between the FCC, T-Mobile and possibly HTC. I don't foresee Google taking any real interest in this because it can only cost them money. Sure Google has made some noble contributions, but how much can they gain from protecting their interests? Not an awful much in this case. Mobile phone manufacturers and network providers will keep using the Android operating system. And the fact that Google licensed the Android operating system does not readily mean they are entitled to enforce it.
If you are interested in the legality of enforcing a license like the GPL, I highly suggest reading: http://www.jltp.uiuc.edu/archives/kumar.pdf
Here's a blurb that describes the predicament:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Whatever... It's whatever you want it to be... Stop trying to ruin the excitement here...
I think the real issue her is the we own the phone and have the right to install or uninstall any application we want that is not integral to the proper operation of the phone without needing root access. This just isn't a T-mobile issue either, all cell providers do the same thing. I doubt it will change anytime soon without the government getting involved.
naria01 said:
Whatever... It's whatever you want it to be... Stop trying to ruin the excitement here...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can also try thinking for yourself as opposed to accepting everything you read, whether it's my post or the article.
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using XDA App
just out of curiosity
is it possible that by "rooting" our phones we would then be able to circumvent some of the failsafes or even bypass billing processes that our network providers have in place?
if there is even the slightest hint of a yes then i would say that any network provider would be entitled to take "reasonable" action to protect their investment as im sure that in any contract or terms of use guide the networks have there would be a section saying something similiar, if not more wordy and legal'ish
Regardless of sensationalism or whatever this is good for us.. I just can't believe the responses here or hell in most of the G2 forums. Most of you are like puppies who will lay over just for a corporate tummy rub. WTF! Why are the "this phone rocks root or not!!11!!" people even on a DEVELOPER website? Jesus people you are either with or against the thing that made cyanogenmod a household name....open android.
I can clearly say XDA was not founded on the principal of HEY MY PHONE CAME JUST THE WAY I LIKED IT....AHHH THANKS HTC.
Please get behind the cause people.
funkeee said:
You can also try thinking for yourself as opposed to accepting everything you read, whether it's my post or the article.
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Let me guess... you voted for obama...
naria01 said:
Let me guess... you voted for obama...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No.
Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using XDA App
naria01 said:
Let me guess... you voted for obama...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
WTF...does voting for Obama have to do with this.....some people.
Sent from my DETHFONE (G2)
OP thanks for the link to the info it was interesting to know that more than just consumers are taking notice even if it doesn't go very far.
Mod, please close this thread before its dominated by "truck stop politics." This isn't the place to discuss who voted for who and why or why not it was a good idea.
moodecow said:
just out of curiosity
is it possible that by "rooting" our phones we would then be able to circumvent some of the failsafes or even bypass billing processes that our network providers have in place?
if there is even the slightest hint of a yes then i would say that any network provider would be entitled to take "reasonable" action to protect their investment as im sure that in any contract or terms of use guide the networks have there would be a section saying something similiar, if not more wordy and legal'ish
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
... no. Billing is done on carrier side, not on the phone. In fact, the carrier doesn't even know which phone you're currently using, and they don't really care beyond forcing you to buy certain plans with certain phones.
Snuggl3s said:
This chip is why we cant have Perma Root. Look for Root thread and you will see what i mean and a much better explanation hehe
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you even read the root threads you just referenced? If so, you clearly don't understand what's in them so read the wiki.
I find it odd that the article that the OP linked to mentions T-Mobile's claims of a poorly coded app almost bringing the network down helps they argument for blocking root. The problem is, based on what I can from the TmoNews article on the app, that app had nothing to do with rooting. Any attempt to link that app to root problems for carriers is pure FUD.
Is it too much to ask that T-Mobile just come out and say that rooting and flashing ROMs leads to higher support costs? Then we can at least have an honest debate.
This was posted by p3droid on mydroidworld - many of us know him, or have at least heard of him. He knows what hes talking about, and this info is somewhat disturbing. This is just a copy/paste of his OP.
Bootloaders, Rooting, Manufacturers, and Carriers
Background
I don't believe that I need to introduce myself, but if I do my name is P3Droid. I am a phone enthusiast and have been working in the Android platform for 17 months. I have been very lucky in my short time on the Android platform. I think more than anything I have been lucky enough to be in the right places at the right times. The day I first saw and played with the Droid (OG) I thought “that is the ugliest damn phone I've ever played with”. Then I was asked back into the store by my friend (nameless) to get some time with the Android platform and he began to explain to me how open the phone was and how a “smart” person could do anything they wanted to the phone. That turned what I thought was an ugly phone into the sexiest beast ever. I guess that was approximately October of 2009, and I was excited about the possibilities and dove right in without checking the depth of the water.
I spent much of the year on an open phone and an open platform, and sometime in July I picked up a Droid X. I soon found a great bunch of friends and we formed Team Black Hat. Really wanting to break the bootloader, we spent more hours working on it than we did our 9 – 5 jobs. Eventually we came to the conclusion (with help from some unique resources), that we were not going to accomplish our objective. Every so often we still pluck away at it, but we have moved on to other things that will help people enjoy their Droid phones.
Fast forward to October 2010. I'm still in love with the concept of android, and I've done more than my share of developing, themeing, creating ROMS and even hacking. *Having been involved in so many things and having developed some unique contacts, I have been privy to information that is not disseminated to the masses. Some of this information I was asked to sit on. Some information I sat on because I felt it was best to do so for our entire community. You have probably seen me rant on occasion about what I thought the community was doing wrong and causing itself future pain. Each of those days I had received even more disheartening information. So where does this leave me? It leaves me with a difficult choice to make. What to tell, how much to tell, and do I want to give information out that could possible be slightly wrong. I've worked very hard to verify things through multiple sources, when possible, and some other information comes from sources so reliable that I take them at their word.
This brings me up to today. I've tossed and turned regarding how to say this, and how to express all of the information and my feelings in regards to this information. I guess the solution is to just let you all decide for yourselves what you think and what you want to do.
One Shoe Falls
Beginning in July, we (TBH), began hearing things about [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]Motorola[/FONT][/FONT] working on ways to make rooting the device more difficult. This was going to be done via [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]Google[/FONT][/FONT] through the kernel. No big deal we thought, the community always finds a way. When Froyo was released and there was no root for some time we became a bit concerned but soon there was a process and even 1-clicks. This was good news and bad news to me, because it simply meant that they would go back to the drawing board and improve upon what they had done.
During this time there were still little rumors here and there about security of devices, and other such things but nothing solid and concrete. Until November.
The Other Shoe Falls
Beginning in October, the information began coming in faster and it had more of a dire ring to it. It was also coming in from multiple sources. I began to rant a little at the state of our community, and that we were the cause of our own woes. So what did I hear?1. New devices would present challenges for the community that would most likely be insurmountable, and that Motorola specifically – would be impossible to hack the bootloader. Considering we never hacked the previous 3G phones, this was less than encouraging.
2.Locked bootloaders, and phones were not a Motorola-only issue, that the major manufacturers and carriers had agreed this was the best course of action.(see new [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]HTC [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]devices[/FONT][/FONT])
3. The driving forces for device lock down was theft of service by rooted users, the return of non-defective devices due to consumer fraud, and the use of non-approved firmware on the networks.I think I posted my first angry message and [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]tweet[/FONT][/FONT] about being a responsible community soon after getting this information. I knew the hand writing was on the wall, and we would not be able to stop what was coming, but maybe we could convince them we were not all thieves and cut throats.
Moving along, December marked a low point for me. The information started to firm up, and I was able to verify it through multiple channels. This information made the previous information look like a day in the park. So what was new?1. Multiple carriers were working collaboratively on a [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]program[/FONT][/FONT] that would be able to identify rooted users and create a database of their meids.
2. Manufacturers who supply Verizon were baking into the roms new security features:
a. one security feature would identify any phone using a tether program to circumvent paying for tethering services. (check your gingerbread DroidX/Droid2 people and try wireless tether)
b. a second security feature would allow the phone to identify itself to the network if rooted.
c. security item number 2 would be used to track, throttle, even possibly restrict full data usage of these rooted phones.The Rubber Meets the Road
So, I wish I had more time to have added this to the original post, but writing something like this takes a lot of time and effort to put all the information into context and provide some form of linear progression.
Lets get on with the story. March of this year was a monumental month for me. The information was unsettling and I felt as if we had a gigantic bulls-eye on our backs.
This is what I have heard:1. The way that they were able to track rooted users is based on pushing updates to phones, and then tracking which meid's did not take the update. There is more to it than this but that is the simple version.
2. More than one major carrier besides Verizon has implemented this program and that all carriers involved had begun tracking rooted phones. All carriers involved were more than pleased with the accuracy of the program.1. What I was not told is what the carriers intended to do with this information.3. In new builds the tracking would be built into the firmware and that if a person removed the tracking from the firmware then the phone would not be verified on the network (i.e. your phone could not make phone calls or access data).
4. Google is working with carriers and manufacturers to secure phones, and although Google is not working to end hacking, it is working to secure the kernel so that no future [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]applications[/FONT][/FONT] can maliciously use exploits to steal end-user information. But in order to gain this level of security this may mean limited chances to root the device. (This item I've been told but not yet able to verify through multiple sources – so take it for what you want)
5. Verizon has successfully used its new programs to throttle data on test devices in accordance with the guidelines of the program.
6. The push is to lock down the devices as tight as can be, but also offer un-lockable devices (Think Nexus S).The question I've asked is why? Why do all this; why go through so much trouble. The answer I get is a very logical one and one I understand even if I don't like it. It is about the money. With LTE arriving and the higher charges for data and tethering, carriers feel they must bottle up the ability of users to root their device and access this data, circumventing the expensive tethering charges.
What I would like to leave you with is that this is not an initiative unique to Verizon or Motorola, this is industry wide and encompassing many manufacturers.
So what does all this mean? You will need to make your own conjectures about what to think of all of this. But, I think that the rooting, hacking, and modding community - as we know it - is living on borrowed time.
In the final analysis of all this I guess I'll leave you with my feelings:
I will take what comes and turn it into a better brighter day, that is all I can do because I do not control the world.
Disclaimers:
I am intentionally not including any names of sources as they do not want to lose their jobs.
This information is being presented to you as I have received and verified it. *
I only deal with information pertaining to US carriers and have no specific knowledge concerning foreign carriers. "
**** the carriers. There will be a revolt. There are enough intelligent people in our community to stop this from happening. I went with the Android OS because Apple is a POS and RIM just doesn't offer what I need in a smart phone. The carriers can try doing what they want but there will be an ugly battle.
Despite this being extremely upsetting news, thanks for sharing it. I'm hoping for the best and not going down without a fight.
Just thought of a potential solution. We could have someone develop a program which accepts these apps and finds whatever sort of signature the carriers are checking for. It can keep it on our phone and ping back to the carriers when queried.
Just a rough idea. But I know there are people far more intelligent than me that can get this done. Or perhaps something more ingenious. I have faith. It will be a nuisance but if we support our strongest devs we will get through this until the carriers piss the **** off.
Isn't Google throwing out the baby with the bathwater here? If the main objective of the carriers is to prevent unauthorized tethering, isn't there a way to do that without blocking root access?
bongd said:
**** the carriers. There will be a revolt. There are enough intelligent people in our community to stop this from happening. I went with the Android OS because Apple is a POS and RIM just doesn't offer what I need in a smart phone. The carriers can try doing what they want but there will be an ugly battle.
Despite this being extremely upsetting news, thanks for sharing it. I'm hoping for the best and not going down without a fight.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is my gut reaction as well. However...... Having spoken with a friend and engineer in the industry (I cannot say her name so take this quote with as much salt as needed) it was explained to me like this.
" Most cell carrier's infastructure are having a tough time dealing with the current customer load as it is. In fact, if you look at events where the influx of people can shut down networks such as AT&T ( the South by South West music fest in Austin TX for example) the cell carries are currently not too worried about losing, what they believe to be, a few customers.
Especially when you figure in the fact that you modding your phone and placing it on thier network is looked upon as you violating their contract. And as it was YOU who violated the contract in thier eyes, the cell carrier can continue charging you for your contract as well as making you purchase an "approved replacement handset"
I am not sure if this is truly the outlook of the carriers or simply the way one employee understands the situation to be......but it wouldnt surprise me if this was exactly how the dev community was viewed by them.
BUT, being around and playing with my phones for a few years now has taught me one thing. There are people on these forums with everybit the brains and know-how as the engineers the carriers employ. And given enough time EVERYTHING can be cracked.
bongd said:
**** the carriers. There will be a revolt. There are enough intelligent people in our community to stop this from happening. I went with the Android OS because Apple is a POS and RIM just doesn't offer what I need in a smart phone. The carriers can try doing what they want but there will be an ugly battle.
Despite this being extremely upsetting news, thanks for sharing it. I'm hoping for the best and not going down without a fight.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
responses like this make me laugh. A revolt? What, more petitions, more rants on forums? This is a momentum shift that the end user can't do much about. There is pressure from a bunch of angles to start locking down certain aspects of android. If you read the whole post you'd notice the part about how a bunch of these security measures are being baked into android at the google level. This is not just verizon making demands of their phone makers.
and as intelligent as some devs are here, we're going to see their advances slowing way down. People are so hopeful that the devs will crack the bootloader (even though they've driven most of them away), yet they ignore the fact that the droidX has been locked down since release, and little to no progress has been made there. (i'm well aware they are slightly different, so don't bring it up). Even look what they did with the last update to the atrix, they blocked known root methods. No matter what the devs manage to do, teh makers have teams of people that just have to look at the exploits, and close them up.
i'm not saying i agree with the way things are going, i'm just trying to remain focused on the facts and be realistic.
cegna09 said:
responses like this make me laugh. A revolt? What, more petitions, more rants on forums? This is a momentum shift that the end user can't do much about. There is pressure from a bunch of angles to start locking down certain aspects of android. If you read the whole post you'd notice the part about how a bunch of these security measures are being baked into android at the google level. This is not just verizon making demands of their phone makers.
and as intelligent as some devs are here, we're going to see their advances slowing way down. People are so hopeful that the devs will crack the bootloader (even though they've driven most of them away), yet they ignore the fact that the droidX has been locked down since release, and little to no progress has been made there. (i'm well aware they are slightly different, so don't bring it up). Even look what they did with the last update to the atrix, they blocked known root methods. No matter what the devs manage to do, teh makers have teams of people that just have to look at the exploits, and close them up.
i'm not saying i agree with the way things are going, i'm just trying to remain focused on the facts and be realistic.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am being realistic. Nothing has been implemented yet, so how can we start brain storming? Nothing but ideas at this point, but it's a hard.
And by a revolt I don't mean one of those stupid petitions. We have people with varying specialties and occupations. Perhaps someone can find a legal clause that will help the battle, something in the ToS that would prevent the segregation of rooted versus non-rooted customers, etc.
Don't get all pissy on me about things. I'm not dreaming of anything outlandish. It's better than being a pessimist and taking it in the ass. Many people chose the Android platform for the freedom it provides. It enough customers are grossly outraged, it will NOT come to pass.
Look at Usage Based Billing. I work for one of the biggest ISPs in Canada and when we tried to introduce UBB we saw customers CHURN tremendously. We've received death threats for Christ sakes... and now ask me, cegna09, please ask if we've decided to go forward and bill customers under UBB?
In case that wasn't blatantly obvious and cynical enough, no, we haven't. It scared CEOs ****less and irritated the hell out of front line staff to the point where many of us feel no loyalty to the company anymore. It has shaken what little trust the consumers had in us and they've flocked for other providers. If Google wants to do this, they'd better be prepared for a ****storm of negative press. This is either fear mongering, exaggerations or a bad idea for Google and wireless carriers.
P.S. I type most of my posts at work so they're not always grammatically sound or eloquent. I don't give a **** though. Thanks for caring.
Okay tracking rooted users is new to me. but I thought the rest was normal procedure?
...Root exploit>carrier update (patches root)>new root exploit>new carrier update (patches new root)>newest root exploit...
How is the op any different than current procedure.? Is it just the addition of carriers tracking rooted users that makes this post notable? Because it seems like scaremongering to me. Should I really be that concerned? I already knew att doesn't like me to tether without a plan, and will do what it can to stop me. I dont have any more reason to believe att will stop service to my phone now than before I read this post.
Basically what started all this guys, was theft of services (free tethering) Everyone who has used the free tethering 'hacks' are largely responsible for this movement. Had everyone modded their phones responsibly, and not stolen services from the carriers because they thought they 'had that right' then this would probably not be happening to the extent that it is. I, for one, do not nor have i ever used a free tethering hack. I have unlimited data and use that freely on my phone. I use my pc for web browsing when i have a lot to do online. Below is a quote from a friend of mine on the Atrixforums.com site that is a very good view and quite accurate interpretation of whats happening.
das8nt said:
Yeah, I always knew something like this was going to come down the pipe... it was only a matter of time.
The third part, The Rubber Meets the Road, has been added. I've had some more time to think about this, and I've come to realize a few things. The following is my opinion on the whole subject. It might not be a very popular one, and posting it is not meant to start a large debate or anything, I just wanted to express my feeling on the matter. Please do not take offense to any of the points I'm trying to make; hopefully some of you know me well enough so far to know that I don't mean offense to anyone.
Opinion starts here...
They're right. The manufacturers, the carriers... they're right. We may not like it, but in the end they both have the full say in what happens. I'll give a few examples in a moment as to why I see it this way, but first I need to let you know where I'm coming from. I have a rooted phone; it's not my first rooted phone. I have tethered; though not often or very much at all, but I have tethered without a tethering plan on my account. I have installed ROMs, custom kernels, MODs, hacks... you name it, I've done it. I enjoy it if only because I can. Did I do it because it was needed? In some circumstances, I might argue, "yes;" in others, not in the slightest... it was just fun. The point to this being is that I have done most of everything that is being discussed in the Food For Thought post; and I've done it because I wanted to.
That brings me to a first example. You buy a car; a $20k car at that. Say you pay cash for it; it's yours. You don't even have to have full coverage insurance on it if you don't want to (some states.) You bought it as you daily driver, but you want to make some mods to it: aftermarket exhaust, lowering kit, cool-air intake.... and nitrous. You can do all of those things.; there's no one stopping you. What you can't do though, is maintain a factory warranty on your new car if you install those mods. When you alter the build of the car you are losing your right to claim that that car was manufactured improperly since it's no longer in the same state in which it was delivered to you. No big deal, right? Nothing ever goes wrong until the warranty expires anyway, we all know that. So, you take it to a drag track to see what it can do; how fast can it go? How quick can it hit the quarter mile line? You want to be know as the fastest, so you don't hold back... you kick in the nitrous.... but there's a problem. You didn't realize that the car was not meant to take that kind of load the way it was built. You blow your engine. Is the dealership or manufacturer going to warranty that engine? Would you really expect them to?
Second example. The same car you purchased, before you ever take it to the track, you want to drive it.... I mean really drive it; feel the true power and handling on the road. You take it out on the Interstate because that has the highest speed limits. You quickly get it up to to 70 mph, but that's not enough. You need more. You start to push it a little farther; no big deal... law enforcement doesn't usually care if you're only going a few mph over the limit, right? Well, you haven't been caught yet, so why not push it a little more? Before you know it you're at 95 mph and you see blue lights coming up quick behind you. Is that office going to let you off the hook because you own the car, have it modded and you feel you can do what you want with it? Would you expect them to?
Yes, we buy the phones. Yes, we own them. Yes, we can mod them how ever we can. What we can't do, though, is agree to a service contract and expect the provider of that contract to allow us to ignore their rules and exploit their services to the point that it costs them money. They are a business. They are not in the business for giving away free service, or replace products because the end user did not use them as intended; if they were they would not be in business very long. The carrier has the right to charge what they do, whether we like it or not. We, as users, have the right to find service elsewhere (most of us) or do with out. We agree to their terms when we allow them to provide us service. You do not have to sign a contract to agree to their terms; activating your phone on their network makes the agreement for you. Manufacturers have the right to lock their phones down, after all, they manufacture them. They are not in business to provide two or three phones for the price of one just because we broke the first couple trying to make them do things they were not intended to do. Again, if they were then they wouldn't be in business very long. If we do not like their practices we can buy from others.
I guess what it all boils down to in my mind is that if modding and hacking had been used the right way, we, the modding community and it's followers, might not have this situation coming down on us. If we did it just to customize our phones the way we want them, I'm sure they would have allowed that and worked with us. Since the opposite has been true for the most part, it surprises me in no way that this is about to happen. Users have been 'jailbreaking' and 'rooting' their phones for years, with a vast majority of them being used to circumvent the rules. So, the rules are about to change... like it or not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
bongd said:
I am being realistic. Nothing has been implemented yet, so how can we start brain storming? Nothing but ideas at this point, but it's a hard.
And by a revolt I don't mean one of those stupid petitions. We have people with varying specialties and occupations. Perhaps someone can find a legal clause that will help the battle, something in the ToS that would prevent the segregation of rooted versus non-rooted customers, etc.
Don't get all pissy on me about things. I'm not dreaming of anything outlandish. It's better than being a pessimist and taking it in the ass. Many people chose the Android platform for the freedom it provides. It enough customers are grossly outraged, it will NOT come to pass.
Look at Usage Based Billing. I work for one of the biggest ISPs in Canada and when we tried to introduce UBB we saw customers CHURN tremendously. We've received death threats for Christ sakes... and now ask me, cegna09, please ask if we've decided to go forward and bill customers under UBB?
In case that wasn't blatantly obvious and cynical enough, no, we haven't. It scared CEOs ****less and irritated the hell out of front line staff to the point where many of us feel no loyalty to the company anymore. It has shaken what little trust the consumers had in us and they've flocked for other providers. If Google wants to do this, they'd better be prepared for a ****storm of negative press. This is either fear mongering, exaggerations or a bad idea for Google and wireless carriers.
P.S. I type most of my posts at work so they're not always grammatically sound or eloquent. I don't give a **** though. Thanks for caring.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The world of mobile devices is a bit different though. I would wager a bet that 90% of users have no interest in rooting, modding, etc, or even a knowledge of what it is. They just don't care. So when 10%, or even if it's as high as 20%, of the user base shows dissatisfaction, i doubt it would sway them. In the mobile world you always have the choice to change platforms, carriers, etc. With ISPs (at least here in the US), you really have no choice over who you use for where you live.
And my point on the developers is just that's always easier to close exploits than to find them. And it looks like there is new modification to close exploits. I think it's going to start to turn into a 1 step forward 2 steps back game. I sincerely hope it doesn't go that way, but that's where i see it with the information presented.
The place you might have a chance of fighting is the recent ruling that made it legal to root/jailbreak phones. Though i bet AT&T and verizon's lawyers are hard at work finding ways around that.
Oh, and i never commented on your grammar.
cegna09 said:
The world of mobile devices is a bit different though. I would wager a bet that 90% of users have no interest in rooting, modding, etc, or even a knowledge of what it is. They just don't care. So when 10%, or even if it's as high as 20%, of the user base shows dissatisfaction, i doubt it would sway them. In the mobile world you always have the choice to change platforms, carriers, etc. With ISPs (at least here in the US), you really have no choice over who you use for where you live.
And my point on the developers is just that's always easier to close exploits than to find them. And it looks like there is new modification to close exploits. I think it's going to start to turn into a 1 step forward 2 steps back game. I sincerely hope it doesn't go that way, but that's where i see it with the information presented.
The place you might have a chance of fighting is the recent ruling that made it legal to root/jailbreak phones. Though i bet AT&T and verizon's lawyers are hard at work finding ways around that.
Oh, and i never commented on your grammar.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sure there are a slew of celebrity lawyers on speed dial, and I know that the Apple jailbreaking case will be strongly referenced if there is a class action lawsuit.
I also recognize and appreciate the circumstances regarding closing and finding exploits. It's always a game of cat and mouse. And it sucks having to find exploits and holes. Sometimes it's easy but sometimes it's extremely tough. I'm hoping it's not the latter.
In any event, I'm going to hold out. I know that there'll be a work around or at least a ton of backlash. You bring up a good point that it's a very small percentage of users who root. But that small percentage is virtually all made up of power users. While we're small in numbers, we're more intelligent than the tweenies who just get Androids for texting and Facebook.
I know that petitions and things like that normally don't get done (I never bothered with the bootloader petition for example) but I know that more constructive and intelligent users will chime in with glorious ideas to keep this **** at bay. I sincerely hope it was a late April fools day joke or something. I don't mind Google data mining and harvesting all my consumer logistics as long as they don't clamp down on my phone. Win win situation. I don't mind their parasitic or insidious intentions at all.
kdspiv said:
And given enough time EVERYTHING can be cracked.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Except Motorola's bootloaders.
jgc121 -
The two parts of the car arguments are invalid. First, loss of warranty, is invalid due to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (federal law) and states that a manufacturer cannot automatically invalidate a warranty because of what an end-user has done. There's a burden of proof. It's a consumer protection.
On your friend's second point, exceeding the speed limit is illegal. It is not in the same class as modifying a device. There is no law being broken. You might argue that unauthorized tethering is theft, which I'd need to hear the argument for - who has sustained damages? How can those damages be quantified?
I do, however, agree that this has been brought upon by the end-users who do naughty things (unauthorized tethering, malware creation, piracy).
RacecarBMW said:
Except Motorola's bootloaders.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It only takes one disgruntled or sympathetic employee...Where are the social engineers?
Kueller said:
It only takes one disgruntled or sympathetic employee...Where are the social engineers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If only someone was willing to risk their job
phobos512 said:
jgc121 -
The two parts of the car arguments are invalid. First, loss of warranty, is invalid due to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (federal law) and states that a manufacturer cannot automatically invalidate a warranty because of what an end-user has done. There's a burden of proof. It's a consumer protection.
On your friend's second point, exceeding the speed limit is illegal. It is not in the same class as modifying a device. There is no law being broken. You might argue that unauthorized tethering is theft, which I'd need to hear the argument for - who has sustained damages? How can those damages be quantified?
I do, however, agree that this has been brought upon by the end-users who do naughty things (unauthorized tethering, malware creation, piracy).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you read how the car arguments are compared - you will understand my friends point. And just by rooting your device, you void your warranty - just like if you add nitrous to your car - warranty gone.... its the same thing. It is the same as modifying these devices, running 'unauthorized firmware' IS technically a warranty voiding action.
Also - these are not MY opinions - just opinions and information from others that im passing along - dont shoot the messenger buddy And tethering without a plan - the way its setup on the network - is theft. It costs them money, and they dont like it.
ok i can sorta understand them wanting to stop free tethering, but why root in general, some people like adding custome roms, or tweaking themes to make their phone that THEY purchased look the way they want it to. I really don't use tether, but locking down root, that's just ridiculous...smh
No; that's exactly my point. Modifying something you own does NOT automatically void the warranty. Read the act; it isn't complicated. I've been modding vehicles for 10 years - I know the law.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act
jgc121 said:
If you read how the car arguments are compared - you will understand my friends point. And just by rooting your device, you void your warranty - just like if you add nitrous to your car - warranty gone.... its the same thing. It is the same as modifying these devices, running 'unauthorized firmware' IS technically a warranty voiding action.
Also - these are not MY opinions - just opinions and information from others that im passing along - dont shoot the messenger buddy And tethering without a plan - the way its setup on the network - is theft. It costs them money, and they dont like it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
phobos512 said:
No; that's exactly my point. Modifying something you own does NOT automatically void the warranty. Read the act; it isn't complicated. I've been modding vehicles for 10 years - I know the law.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I too have been modding vehicles for nearly 15 yrs now, I am an ASE certified technician with EPA certifications, and an Associates Degree in Business Management as well. (Feel free to pm me for proof) I am well aware of this act and the laws. You are missing the point of the previous posts.
A manufacturers warranty would never cover a blown engine due to N20 use.... it just wont. Its intended to cover the engine as it was from the factory. Any changes to the factory setup (within certain limits) are ok. Something like N20 - thats a deal breaker.
As i said before - the previous posts are not MY opinions.... just information i was passing along.
Not sure about that whole Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act..... didn't feel like reading up on it.... but in regards to the whole thing with AT&T and potentially other carriers shutting off all form of cell service to a person with a rooted/jailbroken phone by way of discovery with a special code in the software.... it won't happen unless they're using it in an illegal way (as in using a free tethering workaround, and abusing it to the point that it's easily distinguished that something fishy is going on).... plain and simple. As i mentioned in the other thread with the exact same article linked to in the Atrix forums (one of the other recent threads), the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) was ammended in July 2010, and one of those ammendments was that jailbreaking/rooting a mobile phone to install unauthorized or unapproved applications on the phone is legal.
So.... in regards to the earlier comment someone made laughing at the idea of a "revolt"..... if AT&T starts shutting off service to people who rooted/jailbroke their phone for the sole purpose of either installing a modified ROM or allowing further customisation of the OS than the non-rooted/jailbroke device will allow, then yes, there WOULD be a revolt. That revolt would take the form of... what i believe would fall under a class-action lawsuit. If they can't prove that the person who's service they cut off was using their rooted/jailbroken device in a way that was hindering their service.... which would mostly be the free tethering workarounds and some of those morons downloading quite a few gigabytes of data in a month..... then they would technically be breaking federal law by doing so.
http://thenextweb.com/mobile/2012/0...sh-over-transformer-primes-locked-bootloader/
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using xda premium
Wrong forum, that is about the new transformer prime, not the original transformer
Yea I know just wanted anyone know who might want to get the prime... also for future products/updates they might release..
sent from epic 4g
Original Transformer also has locked bootloader. Just lucky for most of us the key was leaked.
Nullinvoid said:
Wrong forum, that is about the new transformer prime, not the original transformer
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its very pertinent here.
Sent from my Nexus S using xda premium
However the Prime forums are in a bit of an uproar about it.
As I am opposed to locked/encrypted bootloaders I post this link so we may all let Asus know that we don't want to see any more of encrypted bootloaders.
Tweeted as requested! Seems prime has more enthusiasts than we do right now.
Sent from my Nexus S using xda premium
God I really hate these internet mediastorm campaigns full of spotty teenagers complaining about crap like this and starting Facebook petitions and all to try and change corporate decisions. They flood blogs and news sites will their crap.
Go buy an Xoom if it really bothers you that much.
Comments like this really are embarrassing (not for Asus, but the whole human race).
Jermiah Fortier
Unlock this Bootloader on the prime you scumbags.
I bought this device and I demand I be allowed to use it. I will be advising everyone that I know is in the market for a tablet to avoid Asus until something is done.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Someone want to tell him he can already USE it..... He makes it sound like a power-on password. If anything unlocking the bootloader will REDUCE functionality, as it would almost certainly mean you would no longer have a secure device that could rent content, any unlocking would remove DRM keys.
Both my devices are rooted with unlocked bootloaders, however I don't DEMAND it, I research the products and buy the ones that allow it (or have leaked keys). Had the Asus not had the bootloader keys leaked, I would have bought something else (Xoom for eample). Let market forces dictate, not dumb Facebook and mediastorm bullcrap.
Got to love our first world problems. I'd much rather worry about a locked bootloader digital device then where im going to get my next meal or whether we have fresh water for the children . Send all these whining kids to south Africa or the Philippines, mayybe have them digging fighting holes in Afghanistan or building ffp 's... that will add some perspective to their "PROBLEMS"
Carry on
Sent from my SGH-I997 using XDA App
theraffman said:
Got to love our first world problems. I'd much rather worry about a locked bootloader digital device then where im going to get my next meal or whether we have fresh water for the children . Send all these whining kids to south Africa or the Philippines, mayybe have them digging fighting holes in Afghanistan or building ffp 's... that will add some perspective to their "PROBLEMS"
Carry on
Sent from my SGH-I997 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Spot on. My sentiments exactly. It's interesting this form of internet crybaby attitude seems to be almost entirely American of origin.
CrazyPeter said:
Spot on. My sentiments exactly. It's interesting this form of internet crybaby attitude seems to be almost entirely American of origin.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Indeed, methinks mommy and daddy didnt ever tell these idiots 'no'.
However, whilst i dont really appreciate people whingeining so much about this, no doubt the prime will get its leaked bootloader key sometime soon. Patience it seems is fast becoming a uncommon virtue.
The thing that bugs me about this whole bootloader thing is that pure Android devices like the Nexus range dont have this and google have said they dont approve of it but cant do anything about what other manufacturers do in this regard.
Some of the comments are a bit stupid and obviously by people who dont even know what they are talking about .
Regardless now anyway as Asus have announced they will provide an unlocking tool.
This is also good for TF101 users on SBKv2 as im damn sure they will also allow unlocking this too.
Great result i think !!
This is from engadget
"Lastly, ASUS explains that the locked bootloader is essential for access to content from Google's video market thanks to DRM restrictions, but it promises an unlock utility is in the work for those who want it."
http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/03/ice-cream-sandwich-coming-to-the-transformer-prime-january-12th/
mllk said:
This is from engadget
"Lastly, ASUS explains that the locked bootloader is essential for access to content from Google's video market thanks to DRM restrictions, but it promises an unlock utility is in the work for those who want it."
http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/03/ice-cream-sandwich-coming-to-the-transformer-prime-january-12th/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is more to the story than what was published here. It appears that along with the unlocked bootloader, will come the inability to use some DRM protected audio and video content. It will be a trade off.
Rumbleweed said:
There is more to the story than what was published here. It appears that along with the unlocked bootloader, will come the inability to use some DRM protected audio and video content. It will be a trade off.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And the same internet crybabies will be launching a campaign to try and shame Asus into allowing them to have a unlocked bootloader AND be able to rip the DRM from video rentals, they will also force them to make the next Asus Transformer 3 also have an inbuilt coffee maker and toenail clipping facility.
I hate how the internet and social media gives a vocal minority an overinflated ego that allows them to blackmail companies to conform to their whims.
Well, you can call me crybaby, but I'm happy with the result of this campaign. You seem to be crying much more that all of us so called "crybabies" now in this thread. If you don't approve - no need to call people names. And if we all allow in silence for devices to be more and more locked one day we wouldn't have a choice to buy sth else because all of them would be locked.
Magnesus said:
Original Transformer also has locked bootloader. Just lucky for most of us the key was leaked.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry for OT, but when was the key leaked? I am new to the Tf101 and didn't here a Word about that. Could you post a link to confirm that, or sth. like that?
Magnesus said:
Well, you can call me crybaby, but I'm happy with the result of this campaign. You seem to be crying much more that all of us so called "crybabies" now in this thread. If you don't approve - no need to call people names. And if we all allow in silence for devices to be more and more locked one day we wouldn't have a choice to buy sth else because all of them would be locked.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, but I have not felt the need to engineer a social media ****storm like you lot have arranged, where a vocal minority are pretending to be MUCH louder than they actually are.
If you really dislike locked bootloaders, then Tegra2 and Tegra3 platforms are not for you, as they are ALL locked using the same 128bit AES key, as it's part of the NVidia chipset.
The only tablet I am aware of that uses Tegra2 that allows unlocking is the Xoom, if you feel that strongly, don't buy Asus, but Xoom instead.
im sorry but im sure the group of people who want their devices unlocked is not a small percentage from the research ive done on android a good half of android owners are likely rooted.
the people who dont root are usually, not always but usually the people who dont know how or what it is. for your average joe user a locked bootloader means nothing now at least,(if we allow manufacturers to continue to take administrator rights away from the owner the owner will have no control what runs or doesnt run on their device). most users who are technically knowledged in computers are against locked bootloaders even if they dnt feel rooting is neccessary with asus' device(they did a good job at adding the features that were lacking due to a locked device)
ANYONE who sticks up for locked bootloaders on any computer or personal device doesnt have a clue...manufacturers are taking away your rights to do whatever you want with your device. there has already been federal judges state that changing software on a device should not void a warranty. if the tools that should be available are available then software problems can be fixed by the consumer but the manufacturer would lose money from people that would just maintain and repair their devices themselves. im sorry but it is VERY VERYimprobable that software of anykind can damage hardware. i dont think it can at all unless the tools to completely wipe a device and reload its software are non existent.
these manufacturers are only concerned with money not the customers at all. these decisions are made with greed as the driving factor.
and obviously the community that wants the rights to their devices must not be small or asud would have paid no attention....and htc who is now unlocking their devices heard that communities requests as well.
and very simple with a locked bootloader the manufacturer can put any tracking, or spyware on the device they want and the users wouldnt even know. that alone is enough to say no....i do agree with those who say if you want an unlocked device the buy a different tablet and i agree, and i think if that happened then companies like asus sales would definetly fall and companies would see and react to it. i believe this is one way to get manufacturers to listen to the community.
but when i bought my transformer i was told by commercials the salesman, and the android specifications and just the fact its open source, that my device was open sourced and developer freindly. an open source software that run on a locked device is just an oxymoron i guess that the word anyway.
i do feel honestly i was mislead to a degree and in the future i will not purchase a device until i confirm i get full administratir rights to my device. and i hope all other android users do the same..i absolutely love my asus and i would hate to have to make my choice on rights to do what i want with my device rather than the specs and quality of the device.
any device that has files i cant see change or remove is not truly my device its whoever has controll of it letting me use what they deem is ok.
and the low blow to americans was uncalled for but id have to say we are raised from birth believing we have the right to freedom and that includes our devices, and i really dontr think thats wrong what i do believe is wrong is anyone who accepts their freedoms being taken from them and then stcking up for the one who is taking those freedoms away. talk about silly
i really have no intentions of upsetting anyone with this and it is a general statement not directed to anyone other than asus really, im just stating my opinion and i believe thats another right we have. no one has to agree with me and i dont expect them to EVERYONE IS ENTITLED TO AN OPINION. without being attacked for it
Sure enough Asus came through with the requests!
If you wanna pass this along maybe we can get the President's advisors to actually talk about it.
http://wh.gov/VfI8
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using xda app-developers app
You should change the title to make it clear what the petition is supposed to accomplish. It might get more readership. Aside from that and some wording suggestions in the petition itself, i do agree.
Sent from my MB860 using xda app-developers app
Can't modify once its started. D'oh!
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using xda app-developers app
justflorin said:
Can't modify once its started. D'oh!
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Man... they won't even let you change "aloud" to "allowed". That blows.
Lol yeah I know...stupid auto correct
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using xda app-developers app
Yeah it is like white house doesn't have anything else to deal with. Better send a petition to UNICEF for those who were left orphan by motorola.
You probably can't change the petition because certain people and groups would exploit that as a way to get people to sign a petition who would not otherwise support it if they knew the true intent.
Semseddin said:
Yeah it is like white house doesn't have anything else to deal with. Better send a petition to UNICEF for those who were left orphan by motorola.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There are plenty of worse petitions on there.
lehjr said:
There are plenty of worse petitions on there.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That doesn't justify compounding the problem.
smokesignals said:
That doesn't justify compounding the problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How does it compound the problem if the petition is for a real world issue with real world consequences instead of some delusional fantasy as is the case with many of the others? The petition in this case is using the site as intended.
lehjr said:
How does it compound the problem if the petition is for a real world issue with real world consequences instead of some delusional fantasy as is the case with many of the others? The petition in this case is using the site as intended.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
While it is a real world problem it really isn't in the scope of lawmakers. This is more of a company policy problem. The carriers are following local laws and FTC guidelines. It just happens that the money the carriers throw at governments writes these laws.
By targeting a specific industry the petition is less likely to gain traction. Targeting multiple industries with a more general petition about the freedom to use your property as you wish, or a petition to reduce corporate influence from the government would draw more attention.
Of course this still doesn't affect me since I'm not an American.
Hikikomorikruge said:
While it is a real world problem it really isn't in the scope of lawmakers. This is more of a company policy problem. The carriers are following local laws and FTC guidelines. It just happens that the money the carriers throw at governments writes these laws.
By targeting a specific industry the petition is less likely to gain traction. Targeting multiple industries with a more general petition about the freedom to use your property as you wish, or a petition to reduce corporate influence from the government would draw more attention.
Of course this still doesn't affect me since I'm not an American.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The problem of it being illegal to unlock your phone is actually limited to a specific industry and having broader range definitions don't always work, not to mention that it's hard enough to keep the laws and regulations current with the technology.
As far as petitions to limit corporate influence, that in itself is impossible on several levels. For one, there's "Citizens United" where thanks to "corporate personhood", corporations can spend unlimited sums of money on political contributions because doing is considered free speech. Then there are those members of our government with strong corporate ties, some of which have board member seats at one or more corporations.
lehjr said:
The problem of it being illegal to unlock your phone is actually limited to a specific industry and having broader range definitions don't always work, not to mention that it's hard enough to keep the laws and regulations current with the technology.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The problematic law the makes it illegal to unlock your phone by circumventing some form of DRM is the DMCA. The DMCA makes it illegal to jail break an iphone, or just unlock the radio in an android phone so you can use it on another compatible carrier. Sadly this does not only effect the mobile phone industry. It makes it illegal to unlock any "locked" bootloader. This includes the PS3 (unlocking allows linux to run), original Xbox (allows XBMC to run), and almost all phones/tablets (to install new ROMs). This flaw in the DMCA has been used to prevent people from using the devices they own freely. Due to international treaties and the USA's supposed claim on many top level domains, this flaw has been allowed to spread to other countries.
Side note: Phone manufacturers (Motorla, Samsung, HTC, etc) aren't the main cause of locked bootloaders. The carriers are the ones who want and demand the locked bootloader. Since the manufacturers need the relationship (mostly because of subsidies and partly because carriers can refuse to allow phones to connect) they will comply with the wishes of the carriers.
Hikikomorikruge said:
The problematic law the makes it illegal to unlock your phone by circumventing some form of DRM is the DMCA. The DMCA makes it illegal to jail break an iphone, or just unlock the radio in an android phone so you can use it on another compatible carrier. Sadly this does not only effect the mobile phone industry. It makes it illegal to unlock any "locked" bootloader. This includes the PS3 (unlocking allows linux to run), original Xbox (allows XBMC to run), and almost all phones/tablets (to install new ROMs). This flaw in the DMCA has been used to prevent people from using the devices they own freely. Due to international treaties and the USA's supposed claim on many top level domains, this flaw has been allowed to spread to other countries.
Side note: Phone manufacturers (Motorla, Samsung, HTC, etc) aren't the main cause of locked bootloaders. The carriers are the ones who want and demand the locked bootloader. Since the manufacturers need the relationship (mostly because of subsidies and partly because carriers can refuse to allow phones to connect) they will comply with the wishes of the carriers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, "The legal shield for jailbreaking and rooting your phone remains up - it'll protect us at least through 2015."
source: https://www.eff.org/is-it-illegal-to-unlock-a-phone
I understand what you are saying, but it's tough enough to get the attention of lawmakers, it's an epic challenge to keep them interested long enough to do anything about it without spending disgusting sums of money.
So hold on its illegal to jailbreak an iPhone or unlock your android phone? I thought it just voids your warranty?! Edit: Nevermind didn't see that article there
Sent from my Nexus 7 using xda app-developers app
lehjr said:
Actually, "The legal shield for jailbreaking and rooting your phone remains up - it'll protect us at least through 2015."
source: https://www.eff.org/is-it-illegal-to-unlock-a-phone
I understand what you are saying, but it's tough enough to get the attention of lawmakers, it's an epic challenge to keep them interested long enough to do anything about it without spending disgusting sums of money.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh thank you for the link. I though all the phone related exemptions expired. While rooting is still protected, it was always a violation of the DMCA to "hack" a locked bootloader. Thankfully Motorola gave us the keys in 2011
balintmaci said:
5 that is five signatures as of now...
Sent from my MB860 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Only a few thousand more to go before it's given any consideration.
This should really be more about a general repeal of the DMCA and anti-circumvention than about phones specifically.
There is one petition already about it on the We the People site, but it won't let me post a link. Just search it for DMCA.
Hi everyone,
This petition (https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/make-unlocking-cell-phones-legal/1g9KhZG7) is only 31,000+ from hitting 100k!
If we can get the xda community behind this we could easily hit this number!
Good luck, fingers crossed!
I think the petition hit the requirements!