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This is my newest project. It's basically a way to greatly improve the already great HD2. The plan is to take the hardware of the hd2 and put it into a new housing to increase functionality.
Goals:
front facing camera
better signal
front facing speaker (why in the world would you ever want to turn your phone around to hear it)
camera lens protection
bigger battery
wireless charging
kickstand
camera swivel
looks
a breath of fresh air for the ever so aging HD2
Achieved:
front facing speaker
kickstand
proximity and light sensor repositioned
evo 4g lte housing (chose this because the device can stay slim and pocketable while still adding new features)
2300 mah battery
Problems:
No More Front Camera (due to needing the phone to actually charge)
with the extension of the micro usb and headphone jack, it makes it nearly impossible for the camera to swivel back to rear position
removable battery door
Future Plans:
make a primary hd2 docking station complete with external battery speakers and keyboard (idea thanks to xyntaxis)
So what do you think of this project? I am open to any suggestions or support.
on sale for how much
amitkool21 said:
on sale for how much
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I'm sorry. Not for sale yet. Not until everything is working. It still need tweaks for both the hardware and software side. Thanks for the interest though.
isaiah12345 said:
I'm sorry. Not for sale yet. Not until everything is working. It still need tweaks for both the hardware and software side. Thanks for the interest though.
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Let me know if you need spare HD2 parts.
add pics pls
nice project! can we change the CPU lol
mengfei said:
nice project! can we change the CPU lol
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i had an idea for that, but that would require changing a lot of drivers and kernels. If we can our best bet would be to either get a higher clocked qualcomm s1 from something like the titan, or wait for wp8 and upgrade to an s2 through s4. Unfortunately, for now that's just a half baked idea.
edit: remember the main point of this thread is to change the look and feel of the hd2. the internals aren't really being touched. btw, i'll have some pics up when i get the proper housing. when the pics are up i'm sure there will be a better understanding of this project.
isaiah12345 said:
i had an idea for that, but that would require changing a lot of drivers and kernels. If we can our best bet would be to either get a higher clocked qualcomm s1 from something like the titan, or wait for wp8 and upgrade to an s2 through s4. Unfortunately, for now that's just a half baked idea.
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I don't know much about this stuff, but wouldn't the larger battery and front facing camera already require new drivers + kernel changes? Also, I think if anything needs to be improved it's the GPU, not the CPU. Once again I have no clue how this works and whether or not the GPU and CPU are somehow dependent on each other so if this isn't possible then I guess there isn't much that can be done about it.
I support your idea all the way though
This thread is kinda science fiction. You can't simply change CPU or GPU because they are SoC. Any hardware change require massive talent, knowledge and time because we don't have detailed schematics for hardware and software so you would need to reverse engineer it.
Thoughts are good, but it's too hard and time consuming IMO. Good luck though, I'll be watching this thread
Pics or didin't happen
Great idea! But I assume this is going to be a very painful and time consuming process. I wish you great luck!!!
Its a realy crazy idea! :cyclops:
Can you post a foto of what you have at this time?
xyntaxis said:
Its a realy crazy idea! :cyclops:
Can you post a foto of what you have at this time?
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that's how some "great" ideas started out
How about this kind of device? =)
Also it can contain cardreader, USB Video Adapter, usb drive and reflector for redirect signal on more powerfull antenna =)
xyntaxis said:
How about this kind of device? =)
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Hi xyntaxis, nicola360 had a similar idea with a couple of dvd cases http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=15860262&postcount=8 and http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=21258168&postcount=555
Yours looks cool though
Robbie P said:
Hi xyntaxis, nicola360 had a similar idea with a couple of dvd cases http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=15860262&postcount=8 and http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=21258168&postcount=555
Yours looks cool though
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Thx, Robbie, for this fotos! It halp me realise my ideas in hardware :good:
xyntaxis said:
How about this kind of device? =)
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& how big are we talking here?
size looks like almost an A4 size?
does anyone know the name of this keyboard?
it would be a wonderful addition
pic plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.... i would like to see the front camera and how is the OS able to figure out that there are two cameras now ?
If you are shopping for this device and have visited this forum, here is a YouTube preview of the device by myself, LoopyD / LupineDream
http://youtu.be/jDhzp7mRNVU
This video is a quick rundown of the device and basic software and features that it comes with. Most of the terminology used is pretty laymen. The attached poll is a rating for the quality of this vidoe. I have been attempting to increase my skills with vidoe editung.
I am a professional student. If you would like me to spend a bit more time on improvements or donate to the hardware for my basic phone pitches or other tutoriaks (root, ROM, etc.) please donate:
PayPal: [email protected]
Support is appreciated in these attempts. Thanks for watching and reviewing!
Informative, thank you =]
i have the same case as yours... the spigen
I might make a revised version. Seems like the general result is bad quality. I appreciate the critiques, though. I will work harder to improve the quality of the videos.
Do you all have some suggestions? Seems like there is quite a bit of room for improvement.
LupineDream said:
I might make a revised version. Seems like the general result is bad quality. I appreciate the critiques, though. I will work harder to improve the quality of the videos.
Do you all have some suggestions? Seems like there is quite a bit of room for improvement.
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When looking at things like this you have to look at who you are being compared to. In this case you would need alot of equipment to match what they do and to be honest. Unless it is right after the devices release videos like this almost will get no views at all.
zelendel said:
When looking at things like this you have to look at who you are being compared to. In this case you would need alot of equipment to match what they do and to be honest. Unless it is right after the devices release videos like this almost will get no views at all.
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Click to collapse
Sadly, critics are going to be hard on someone on a fixed income. Oh well, I did attempt. I'll leave it up. I really like this phone. I'm glad that I got the chance to show it off. Even if it was with a tablet camera.
This might help people eyeing the Z4 Tablet, but are unsure of what positives and negatives there are. Of course, this is highly subjective, but this is my list. It's influenced by my personal competing choices which were the Samsung Galaxy Tab S2 and the Google Pixel C. I'm happy I chose the Sony Xperia Z4 Tablet.
Pros:
Fast SoC (Qualcomm Snapdragon 810)
This is Qualcomm's 2015 flagship SoC and from what I've experienced it's really fast. Android flies. It also runs 64-bit, which it should anyway, but for example Samsung's Tab S2 doesn't. I don't know about the graphical performance as I don't really play games.
'Compatible' SoC (Qualcomm Snapdragon 810)
This opens up the way for optimized-for-specific-SoC apps (like RSBrowser, which is Snapdragon-optimized and significantly faster than stock Chrome/Chromium) and CyanogenMod support, that need documentation/drivers. For example, Samsung's (faster) Exynos SoC's are a black box for developers, which makes things like this very hard and has the result of devs abandoning it.
Big internal storage (32GB)
32GB is plenty of storage for apps and a reasonable amount of media. But that can be stored on the microSD.
microSD capability (up to 128GB)
This is a major benefit for a media consumption device like this, which many devices don't have.
Good multitasking
I could have mentioned 3GB RAM, but that doesn't tell the whole story. Multitasking on the Z4 is pretty darn good. It swtiches quickly and is generally very snappy. My Samsung Galaxy S6 with 3GB RAM has pretty bad RAM management in comparison. I'm still trying to find a custom kernel for it that keeps the phone snappy after 2 days.
Huge screen solution, high ppi on a big screen
2560x1600, 299ppi. On a big 10.1 inch screen. This is wonderful.
16:10 aspect ratio screen
Which is good for widescreen content like movies and dSLR photo's. 16:10 also beats 16:9 for me because of the added screen height.
Screen has natural, accurate colors
Very subjective, but compared to several other screens I've found this one to be superior.
Front facing stereo speakers
A rare thing among Android devices. Good design choice.
Lightweight (~390gr), thin
It's pleasantly light to hold.
NFC, notification LED, GPS, vibration motor
These features are often overlooked, but are important to me. I use NFC for LastPass, the (multicolor!) LED with LightFlow to see what exactly is asking my attention when in standby, vibration to still be notified when I want the tablet to be silent and GPS for the occasional navigation need or social app check-in.
Qualcomm Quick Charge 2.0
Another nice bonus, which isn't mentioned much. Quick Charge makes a major difference to charging speed. Needs a compatible charger though.
Big battery (6000mAh)
Can't yet say battery life is amazing, because I'm using it a lot and crank the screen brightness up quite high so don't know what to expect. Reviewers seem to agree it's great though.
Bootloader can be unlocked (so the road is open for rooting)
No waiting for an exploit if you're OK with going this route. Just follow Sony's instructions and you'll have root in no time.
Marshmallow announced
Should come January '16 I heard, but these things always get delayed :| At least it's coming.
AOSP commitment by Sony
Sony's Open Device Program is nice and all, but their sources are a bit troublesome and don't seem to produce functional ROMs. Still, Sony's stance on it might bode well for future things.
Water-/dustproof
I don't care much myself, but it's a nice bonus. At least it takes some worries away (dropping liquids on it, no fear for dust particles between the screen and the glass).
Keyboard dock option
Nice for when you want to use a physical keyboard that is fully compatible and is also attachable. I use a 3rd party BT keyboard, but I'm constantly fighting with fixing incompatible button mapping stuff.
Important root-specific things that work
These things are not guaranteed to work or be available on any rooted device, and are pretty major in adding possibilities, so I consider them pros to be working on the Z4T:
Xposed Framework
For most people anyway (Some are having issues). This is a thing to be happy about, because if it didn't, chances are it wouldn't be fixed anytime soon because of the small user/dev base. Xposed opens up many possibilities which really enhance a device. To me it's a selling point.
Native KCAL support
Another Qualcomm exclusive. I believe this is actually fully present on the stock ROM, but not fully controllable (limited to RGB in the Settings menu). KCAL support enables you to tweak various image parameters, like RGB, saturation and contrast with a tool like Color Control or Kernel Adiutor. It's pretty great and you don't see it often.
Cons:
SoC might overheat in extreme circumstances
Haven't had any problems myself, and I stress the tablet pretty hard, but I've read some reports about issues. At least of a guy bringing the tablet to the beach. It's mostly just people saying it's fine, even with heavy usage.
Speakers are lacking in bass
No surprise, but it's still a letdown.
Bad low-light camera performance, no flash
Picture quality in low light is disturbingly bad. Having no flash makes this unusable in those situations. Not a big deal for me personally, I don't take pics with a tablet.
Screen isn't that bright
Compared to several others, the screen isn't that bright and needs to be cranked up pretty much, even indoors. Outdoors, this is a problem. The big screen reflectiveness doesn't help either. Indoors it fine, it just that the needed high brightness level eats battery.
Screen lacks deep blacks
This is compared to (S)AMOLED, specifically. Those screen blacks are amazing and darker colors are also good for battery on those screens. IPS screens just don't have that. Using dark themes won't help battery life on the Z4T, it may even be worse with them.
Stock charger isn't Quick Charge 2.0
Come on, Sony.
No hardware navigation buttons
This is a real PITA for me because this requires Android's soft keys / navigation bar which take up valuable screen space. This is especially problematic in landscape mode on this 16:10 ratio in which you'll want every screen height you can get. Fortunately, this can be overcome by tools like GMD Full Screen Immersive Mode (with full screen keyboard typing restrictions so you'll have to switch back to type :S) combined with All in One Gestures, both of which don't reqquire root. Better yet is a build.prop edit that declares to Android the tablet has hardware buttons, removing the soft keys entirely, while keeping the ability to type anywhere. I navigate using All in One Gestures, because GMD GestureControl sometimes stops working. Which isn't very nice when you don't have navigation keys
No user-land root exploit (yet)
Because of this, you'll need to unlock the bootloader to gain root access. Which will destroy your TA partition, which will in turn remove Sony-proprietary functions. Which I personally don't use and don't see much use for anyway. Also, unlocked bootloader can't be undone without Sony noticing, so as a non-EU citizen you'll possibly have warranty issues.
Small user/dev community
Not many people own a Z4 Tablet (bad availability in the US and it's expensive) and because of this, there's next to no development for it. Luckily, we have @AndroPlus who's made a custom kernel and ported TWRP (which unfortunately has a bug that keeps us from restoring the system partition from a backup). @DHGE worked on root, which made it possible in the end I think. Still, custom ROMs would be nice. Also, if you run into device-specific problems, there's not many others that can help, because you're either the only one or one of very few who have that problem.
It's expensive
The price is very high and a bit hard to justify.
What I miss:
Wireless charging
This is sooo convenient. It also spares the precious MicroUSB port, which is used for charging, data-transfer, USB-OTG and adb/fastboot. If it breaks, you're done.
Removable battery
Batteries do not have eternal life, so eventually it will be completely dead. Which will render the tablet dead as well.
Any thoughts, questions, additions or critique is welcome.
jelbo said:
[*]Small user/dev community
Not many people own a Z4 Tablet (bad availability in the US and it's expensive) and because of this, there's next to no development for it. Luckily, we have @AndroPlus who's made a custom kernel and ported TWRP (which unfortunately had a bug that keeps us from restoring the system partition from a backup). @DHGE worked on root, which made it possible in the end I think. Still, custom ROMs would be nice. Also, if you run into device-specific problems, there's not many others that can help, because you're either the only one or one of very few that have that problem.
.
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Hello jelbo. Let's discuss about it. First of all, our tablet is not alone with some sort of problem. z3+ and z5 devices are the same story. I don't really understand how can we have aosp sources but not to have its rom. So what the problem, some building problem, or is it true that aosp roms works without working sensors? People give different feedback. Did you try some aosp rom? I just want to cook aosp rom in ubuntu.
alex009988 said:
Hello jelbo. Let's discuss about it. First of all, our tablet is not alone with some sort of problem. z3+ and z5 devices are the same story.
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Yes, they're similar. Which actually makes me think about a positive point as development for those devices can also benefit Z4T owners. For example @[NUT]'s efforts may eventually reach us, or when an Xperia user-land exploit is found, it will likely be shared among different devices.
I don't really understand how can we have aosp sources but not to have its rom. So what the problem, some building problem, or is it true that aosp roms works without working sensors? People give different feedback. Did you try some aosp rom? I just want to cook aosp rom in ubuntu.
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Click to collapse
I'm not too sure about the reasons, but what I've seen is that 1) the Sony sources are/have been a bit buggy/messy 2) not many people compile ROMs from it (I've only seen 2 XDA users and the FXP Team).
I haven't yet dared to flash any AOSP build because I've been too busy on getting stock rooted to my liking and troubleshooting my Xposed issues and I don't want to interrupt that. It seems to be quite easy to flash ROMs though, it's either a TWRP flashable .zip, Flashtool flashable .tft or fastboot flashable .bin files.
I'm also curious about the mixed reports about 'sensor stuff not working' and 'everything works fine' on Sony-sourced AOSP builds, but so far no-one has answered my or your questions about it. Seems we'll have too find out ourselves at some point Best leave that part of questions and discussion in their respective threads to keep things organized.
Nice summary, thanks for the effort; its clear and concise.
jelbo said:
it's either a TWRP flashable .zip,
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I think free xperia team jeer at us cause twrp has a serious bug and it can't flash any roms for the time being whereas we can see exactly .zips at their site.
Interesting, had they even tested themselves what they uploaded
jelbo said:
Yes, they're similar. Which actually makes me think about a positive point as development for those devices can also benefit Z4T owners. For example @[NUT]'s efforts may eventually reach us, or when an Xperia user-land exploit is found, it will likely be shared among different devices.
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Click to collapse
I've put XZDualRecovery on 'feature freeze' for 2.8 well over a year ago, because it needs some work to keep it working on the ever changing Android eco-system. As a consequence, I also stopped adding devices to the supported devices list. For XZDR 2.9 things will change and I will start adding devices again, remember that I am just on my own, from time to time I have a helper but they generally drop out after a while and I'm on my own again after that... I have a busy real life and a very busy job, which consumes most of my energy, leaving only little amounts of it for use on the XZDR development unfortunately... and I have big plans with it which I'd rather deploy sooner then later.
As security features increase, so do the difficulties to keep XZDR working properly... For the Z3+/Z4/Z5/M4 Aqua it is dm-verity, which throws a tantrum once the system partition is modified, which in turn causes a reboot (and with that a bootloop). This behavior has hampered the Stock Based custom ROM development and made it generally impossible to root the device...
A backup-ta with a built-in root exploit (similar to the XZDR installer) to allow a backup of the TA partition would kick-start the development for these models. People don't mind unlocking their devices but do mind losing their warranty on a 500-700 euro device... so most of them wait for the possibility to backup their TA partition.
Oh, and to actually participate in this topic:
I have to say the Z4 tablet takes my fancy and tics just about all the boxes of things I like about tablets... I own a Xperia Tablet Z, well, the misses has it now and I can 'occasionally' touch it :silly: and I have been looking for a new tablet to actually use myself
I don't have the funds to purchase a TabZ4, but I would really like to have one with the keyboard dock
[NUT] said:
Oh, and to actually participate in this topic:
I have to say the Z4 tablet takes my fancy and tics just about all the boxes of things I like about tablets... I own a Xperia Tablet Z, well, the misses has it now and I can 'occasionally' touch it :silly: and I have been looking for a new tablet to actually use myself
I don't have the funds to purchase a TabZ4, but I would really like to have one with the keyboard dock
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Hello. Thanks for participating our thread. Tab Z4 is a great device with cool hardware, but it is less developed in comparison with Samsung to my regret. All we want for this moment are a fix of bug for twrp, problem with mounting the system, and some customs roms. And the very big dream is cyanogenmod of course
@jelbo, where in NL do you live? Did you root your TabZ4 yet?
---------- Post added at 02:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:26 PM ----------
alex009988 said:
Hello. Thanks for participating our thread. Tab Z4 is a great device with cool hardware, but it is less developed in comparison with Samsung to my regret. All we want for this moment are a fix of bug for twrp, problem with mounting the system, and some customs roms. And the very big dream is cyanogenmod of course
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Click to collapse
Well, I am assuming that custom ROM's will come as soon as there is a viable way to flash them
I wonder why @AndroPlus wasn't able to fix the TWRP mount issues yet...
alex009988 said:
Hello. Thanks for participating our thread. Tab Z4 is a great device with cool hardware, but it is less developed in comparison with Samsung to my regret. All we want for this moment are a fix of bug for twrp, problem with mounting the system, and some customs roms. And the very big dream is cyanogenmod of course
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Click to collapse
I'm pretty confident CM will support the 'karin' at some point. Many other Sony phones/tablets are officially supported.
[NUT] said:
@jelbo, where in NL do you live? Did you root your TabZ4 yet?
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I'll tell you in a PM Yeah, I've unlocked my bootloader and rooted it. I couldn't restrain myself anymore It's so much better now. Just some littles gripes left that'll be fixed sooner or later.
Well, I am assuming that custom ROM's will come as soon as there is a viable way to flash them
I wonder why @AndroPlus wasn't able to fix the TWRP mount issues yet...
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Time restraints, who knows? He did post a v11 version of the kernel some days ago though @dl12345 who greatly helped him getting TWRP to work, may be able to fix it, but he hasn't been around. You can follow some technical details about it in the AndroPlusKernel thread.
It's just /system/ that cannot be restored though. Which is bad, but you can get out of a bad situation pretty quickly with restoring /data/ and using Helium/Titanium Backup, I think. Unless you really fried the ROM and need your /system/ back, then you can only go the flashtool route now
jelbo said:
I'm pretty confident CM will support the 'karin' at some point. Many other Sony phones/tablets are officially supported.
I'll tell you in a PM Yeah, I've unlocked my bootloader and rooted it. I couldn't restrain myself anymore It's so much better now. Just some littles gripes left that'll be fixed sooner or later.
Time restraints, who knows? He did post a v11 version of the kernel some days ago though @dl12345 who greatly helped him getting TWRP to work, may be able to fix it, but he hasn't been around. You can follow some technical details about it in the AndroPlusKernel thread.
It's just /system/ that cannot be restored though. Which is bad, but you can get out of a bad situation pretty quickly with restoring /data/ and using Helium/Titanium Backup, I think. Unless you really fried the ROM and need your /system/ back, then you can only go the flashtool route now
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* [NUT] pokes @AndroPlus to join this conversation.
Due to lack of time on my side to read the entire topic, what exactly fails when restoring system?
@jelbo, do you have his kernel installed (a.k.a. have you unlocked your bootloader)?
[NUT] said:
* [NUT] pokes @AndroPlus to join this conversation.
Due to lack of time on my side to read the entire topic, what exactly fails when restoring system?
@jelbo, do you have his kernel installed (a.k.a. have you unlocked your bootloader)?
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Yes and yes. Basically anyone here who's rooted their tablet is running AndoPlusKernel and have manually unlocked their bootloader.
jelbo said:
Yes and yes. Basically anyone here who's rooted their tablet is running AndoPlusKernel and have manually unlocked their bootloader.
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I see, that un-complicates testing a lot
Gotta say... amazing tablet all together and the first device that i havent seen the mighty snapdragon handwarmer throttle from heat in. I kept roasting it for about 3 hours with simpleplanes and PC minecraft (boardwalk app) and it didnt lose any performance just got a bit hot on the back middle. I find the battery life to be good enough for a day of being on and off watching youtube and occasional gaming but i do keep screen brightness on auto at all times and features such as BT NFC and GPS off. Also a app that i think the tablet should have from factory: OGYoutube, you can have floating resizeable youtube above other apps or play in background or with screen off and download in mp4 or mp3.
I'd picked up a Z4T about 4 months ago to replace two different devices, my aging and finally dead cell phone (I hung on to my old Samsung S3 for way too long), and my laptop, which is a still functional but extraordinarily heavy beast of a 17" macbook - about 6 years old on its own as well. What can I say, they were still working so why buy new?
I have to say I'm very glad I made the purchase. I picked up a SBH52 handset to make phone calls more convenient, and splurged on the sony docking kb for the added ruggedness of using it as a "case" - which it does like a champ. Calls are nice and clear, and I've had pretty much no troubles - aside from some occasional static when using the handset (which I owe to the handset itself being a bit flaky). Even with an unlocked BL, remote play on my PS4 still works, only the Bravia screen mirroring to my TV is kaput. It serves very well as a laptop for those like me that need something lightweight for overnight trips, let with a big enough screen to be able to remote desktop troubleshoot back to the main office.
Would this replace every computer I own? Obviously not. I still own a high end desktop for videos, games, and intense word processing (the sony kb is just a bit small if you were attempting to write a novel for example); and my PS4 for console games; but for light end use and for traveling, it's almost the perfect laptop replacement. And as a combo cellphone laptop? I couldn't ask for better. My overall data usage has also dropped, because I'm using far more wireless on this device (I want to make sure it's connected for the stability if nothing else), but I can always drop out to a cell connection if no wireless is available - or if I don't feel like paying the stupid prices at the hotel the convention is being held at.
Now for the Cons:
I've really only got two, one of which was mentioned here. The damn thing is not cheap. Since I live in the states, the LTE version is not available directly. You need to pick up an international version from amazon or another reputable source. Hence the reason I have a kb with extra non-english symbols on it. Not that I mind, but it confuses some people when they look at it. When I picked mine up, the tablet kb and handset ran about $900 US all together. so not something you want to accidentally brick, or drop, or leave behind in a restaurant....
The second one is convenience. Given that it is a tablet - and a fairly large one, most people aren't going to go the phone replacement route like I did. You can't exactly just slip it into your pants pocket. And since the handset is BT, you can't exactly leave the tablet in the car and just use the handset inside most restaurants either (unless you park really close to the building). I'll often leave mine at home if all I do is run to the store for a dozen eggs or something, just because it's easier not to pack it up. But then half an hour of being unconnected and out of touch doesn't bother me - it might bother some though.
So there you have it, a much less technical review, from yet another satisfied user.
begalund said:
I'd picked up a Z4T about 4 months ago to replace two different devices, my aging and finally dead cell phone (I hung on to my old Samsung S3 for way too long), and my laptop, which is a still functional but extraordinarily heavy beast of a 17" macbook - about 6 years old on its own as well. What can I say, they were still working so why buy new?
I have to say I'm very glad I made the purchase. I picked up a SBH52 handset to make phone calls more convenient, and splurged on the sony docking kb for the added ruggedness of using it as a "case" - which it does like a champ. Calls are nice and clear, and I've had pretty much no troubles - aside from some occasional static when using the handset (which I owe to the handset itself being a bit flaky). Even with an unlocked BL, remote play on my PS4 still works, only the Bravia screen mirroring to my TV is kaput. It serves very well as a laptop for those like me that need something lightweight for overnight trips, let with a big enough screen to be able to remote desktop troubleshoot back to the main office.
Would this replace every computer I own? Obviously not. I still own a high end desktop for videos, games, and intense word processing (the sony kb is just a bit small if you were attempting to write a novel for example); and my PS4 for console games; but for light end use and for traveling, it's almost the perfect laptop replacement. And as a combo cellphone laptop? I couldn't ask for better. My overall data usage has also dropped, because I'm using far more wireless on this device (I want to make sure it's connected for the stability if nothing else), but I can always drop out to a cell connection if no wireless is available - or if I don't feel like paying the stupid prices at the hotel the convention is being held at.
Now for the Cons:
I've really only got two, one of which was mentioned here. The damn thing is not cheap. Since I live in the states, the LTE version is not available directly. You need to pick up an international version from amazon or another reputable source. Hence the reason I have a kb with extra non-english symbols on it. Not that I mind, but it confuses some people when they look at it. When I picked mine up, the tablet kb and handset ran about $900 US all together. so not something you want to accidentally brick, or drop, or leave behind in a restaurant....
The second one is convenience. Given that it is a tablet - and a fairly large one, most people aren't going to go the phone replacement route like I did. You can't exactly just slip it into your pants pocket. And since the handset is BT, you can't exactly leave the tablet in the car and just use the handset inside most restaurants either (unless you park really close to the building). I'll often leave mine at home if all I do is run to the store for a dozen eggs or something, just because it's easier not to pack it up. But then half an hour of being unconnected and out of touch doesn't bother me - it might bother some though.
So there you have it, a much less technical review, from yet another satisfied user.
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Click to collapse
Thanks for sharing
So I am coming to this device from the Nvidia Shield Tablet and I love the device thus far for all of the positive reasons mentioned. Also with respect to screen brightness listed as a con my own experience is that it is much better than what I was coming from.
The battery life is truly great with this device and my needs are small when it comes to the development area. I simply need it to be rooted because I prefer to remove all of googles garbage that I don't use and rooting and bootloader unlock was very simple.
All in all I am really liking this device, had it about 10 days now. I have the LTE version but only because I may use it at some point.
Overall very pleased with the device so far.
ThePhoneGeek said:
So I am coming to this device from the Nvidia Shield Tablet and I love the device thus far for all of the positive reasons mentioned. Also with respect to screen brightness listed as a con my own experience is that it is much better than what I was coming from.
The battery life is truly great with this device and my needs are small when it comes to the development area. I simply need it to be rooted because I prefer to remove all of googles garbage that I don't use and rooting and bootloader unlock was very simple.
All in all I am really liking this device, had it about 10 days now. I have the LTE version but only because I may use it at some point.
Overall very pleased with the device so far.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was seriously considering the Shield because of the dev scene and the price. What made you switch?
jelbo said:
I was seriously considering the Shield because of the dev scene and the price. What made you switch?
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Click to collapse
The device itself just isn't very efficient on battery and I needed something with a slightly larger screen. It does ok but it's really designed more as a gaming device IMO which wasn't what I needed. Also the specs are a bit outdated now.
I noticed in the op that he said being a non eu customer when unlocking bootloader they will notice. Im an eu user, does this mean that they wont notice if I try claim warranty after bootloader unlock? I havent unlocked yet but I was getting slow WiFi and disconnections. I really want root but im not sure about this WiFi issue I set the WiFi to turn off at sleep and it seems better also the issues are caused less im concerned what would you guys do? ive sent it off to Sony once already they said nothing was wrong with wifi. Can someone help me decide? Much appreciated, many thanks.
First off, let me make clear that this post is written purely from a developer perspective. As a user, I love the Pixel C despite its shortcomings, use it all the time (even if mostly just for web browsing, at the moment at least).
But as an Android developer (both OS and apps), the device makes it really hard to love it.
The Pixel C is, hardware-wise, and firmware-wise, a ChromeOS device. Not maybe, not used to be, but fact. It starts with using coreboot+depthcharge as the bootloader that only on the very top of everything boots Android, and goes over to the ChromeOS EC (Embedded Controller).
And it is this embedded controller, combined with the Tegra X1 chipset, that I have the most gripes with.
What is the EC? The EC is, somewhat contrary to its naming, not a "dumb" controller, but actually a fully-fledged system inside the Pixel C. It has its own CPU (a Cortex A7) and its own operating system (which is much much smaller than the OS the device actually runs, in this case Android).
The EC does basic things like partially controlling the boot sequence, and having direct control over auxilliary hardware like the device's sensors. That means that the OS has to rely on communication with the EC to make use of the sensors, and that is exactly how it is implemented in the Pixel C.
So what is my trouble now, finally, you might be wondering at this point.
Maybe some of you have noticed that over the course of the past weeks I tried to develop Double Tap to Wake for the Pixel C.
My initial approach was the same as on other devices: make sure the touchscreen still receives power and handles events, even if the screen is turned off. Then listen for gestures (like a double tap), and if a gesture is recognized, activate the device.
This didn't work out, because the Tegra X1 chipset is extremely strict when it comes to power management. Similar to the EC, you don't have direct access to the PMU (Power Management Unit), but rather need to go through the Tegra's PMC (Power Management Control).
Basically, while I've succeeded in keeping the touch screen awake after the device is suspended, it amounts to nothing since the Tegra can only be awoken by specific events when in LP0 state (Low Power 0). These events are already pre-determined by the firmware and can be hooked into through the DTB (Device Tree Blob) which contains hooks and information for the various kernel subsystems.
It does so for the PMC as well, but since the events are already hardcoded, there is no way to wake the device from suspend on a touchscreen event in a useful way, or at least not with the Linux kernel 3.18 used in the Pixel C.
So double tap to wake works, until the system goes into LP0 suspend, which happens very quickly after you turn off the screen if everything works well (no wakelocks or wake interrupts).
I gave up on that, and decided to implement double tap to wake through the mechanism the Pixel C already makes use of, as we all know: if you double tap on the back, OR the front, the Lightbar will show you the battery level.
It turns out that this feature is controlled by the EC, but since there is only access to the sensors via the EC, it is the EC and only the EC that can propagate the event to the host system, and possibly wake it up from suspend in case of a double tap.
I had, again, everything working: I've created a small framework overlay APK so you can enable wake settings in Android Settings, modified power.dragon and sensors.dragon (two Android modules that interact with various subsystems in order to control the devices state, and to read sensors, respectively).
Double Tap to Wake using the sensor worked!
Until... the system goes into LP0 again. It was very frustrating, and became even more so once I read the EC source code and realized that the event simply isn't hooked up into the host system on purpose, in order to enable the Lightbar tap functionality.
Now, I'm not saying that this all is deliberately created in such a way as to make development hard for the device. But none the less, it is.
In order to make this work (I don't see much of a chance for DT2W using the screen), I will have to compile my own modified EC firmware, flash it onto the Pixel C, hoping I didn't make some grave mistake that will blow my Pixel C up in smoke, something that I wouldn't have to do on a usual Android device.
As you can see, all this is becoming a little convoluted, hairy, and dangerous. It's akin to getting the mostly undocumented sourcecode for your Laptop's EFI BIOS, compiling it yourself, and then flashing it into your Laptop, hoping you compiled from the right version of the source code, you did everything right while flashing the new firmware, etc.
The next problem is whether this, flashing your own EC firmware, is even possible at all things given. The Pixel C has, like all ChromeOS devices (I'm staying with my point here), a Write-Protect mechanism. In the Pixel's case it's not a screw, but it is the front camera flex.
Only with the Write-Protect disabled you have full access to the device on a similar level which you would have on a normal Android device after unlocking the bootloader. But, in order to access it on the Pixel, you need to take off the screen. You'd have to heat-gun the front until the adhesive comes off, pry off the screen with bezel, disable the Write-Protect, and then somehow reassemble the Pixel.
I bet at this point many will agree that it's all a bit extreme just in order to get a feature like Double Tap to Wake working.
Still, I will be trying. But not today. And probably not tomorrow.
Over and out.
Great rant and information. I have been following your efforts and wanted to thank you. I can now understand the frustrations why it is more difficult than other devices. Thank you again.
Man... This is depressing. Here I was hoping this device was only a Pixel by name alone, and that it would function like any other Nexus device. That's a real bummer, as I was SO close to replacing my aging Nexus 10 with this. But, alas, maybe it just wasn't meant to be. I would've been willing to drop $600 on this, but not anymore. Unless they can magically flash PURE Android on this, and get rid of all the junk that ties it to ChromeOS, I'll probably pass. Or, maybe I'll pick one up after they start discounting it, realizing what a failure it was rushing it to market. It's a shame that other OEMs put a bunch of crappy UI skins on their tablets...
charesa39 said:
Man... This is depressing. Here I was hoping this device was only a Pixel by name alone, and that it would function like any other Nexus device. That's a real bummer, as I was SO close to replacing my aging Nexus 10 with this. But, alas, maybe it just wasn't meant to be. I would've been willing to drop $600 on this, but not anymore. Unless they can magically flash PURE Android on this, and get rid of all the junk that ties it to ChromeOS, I'll probably pass. Or, maybe I'll pick one up after they start discounting it, realizing what a failure it was rushing it to market. It's a shame that other OEMs put a bunch of crappy UI skins on their tablets...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I bought the Pixel C to replace my N10. The Pixel C is a great device ; however, it has some known issues right now (touch screen & wifi). They are working on software solutions for them. Cheep5k8 has done some great development work so far - root with custom kernel. There is also an unofficial TWRP available as well. I still would recommend the Pixel C, but would suggest that you wait until the major issues are resolved. You can also follow the development threads to see progress. There are some great developers working with the device, so we will eventually get some custom options even if they are limited in some aspects.
Wow I knew some software was left over from the Chrome OS but I didn't expect all of that!
God damn Google wth
charesa39 said:
Unless they can magically flash PURE Android on this, and get rid of all the junk that ties it to ChromeOS
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is not going to happen. It would require very elaborate and extensive work on the firmware to make it appear like a true Android device, something that is not necessary for the device's first line of sale, and is sure as rain not going to happen just for the aftermarket. To be honest, they've already done a pretty good job at masquerading it as an Android device in the very short time frame they had, and it's still way problematic.
Still, I feel, and I'm not really sure why, that we can fix at least some things wrong with this device, but it's so damn messy. I mean, why would you leave the Write-Protect enabled on a device that effectively runs Android, especially if it's impossible for normal users, and thus developers, to disable it. Who's going to take the screen apart just to have some features added? Probably only the most die-hard of developers, and sure as hell no casual users who just want to flash a ROM. Some input from the Nexus team would have been really appreciated here.
I'm gonna try my best, but the past few weeks have been extremely frustrating. I just kinda want to enjoy the device for now, and that's just not possible once you start developing on an OS level beyond minor modifications to the kernel, so I'm taking a break, taking the device as it is (which is easier than I thought it would be, perhaps because in theory it is such a wonderful device), and focus on other things for the moment.
hey cheep5k8, nice work on the pixel c so far. you should be proud of your efforts in bringing what you have to users of this device. Do you have any thoughts on why google did not, or could not, make the pixel c a chromiumOS device?
Personally, and I don't have extensive data to back everything up (Ars did a more thorough research, but then again, I went deep into the code and ChromeOS gerrit, etc.), this is my opinion:
I think until early mid-year 2015 the Pixel C was still running ChromeOS in Google's labs, and it was well planned to ship it that way. Somewhen around late summer, the device was adapted to masquerade as an Android device. I call it that because it still really isn't a real Android device. The kernel source is hosted on chromiumos git, and the kernel is as much a ChromeOS kernel as it is an Android one.
But why the change? We can mostly just speculate. I didn't find any direct evidence in git or gerrit, and I doubt the developers really had much of a choice in that. I'm also sure the reason wasn't a technical one; the Pixel C would well be able to run ChromeOS as is. Maybe someone will even try to port it.
It was most likely a business decision. Maybe because the attempts to make ChromeOS operate touch only were not successful from a UX perspective. The device was already being developed on with prototype boards in 2014. At that time, though, it was mostly the bringup, so no real UI yet (as far as I could gather from git and gerrit). But still, you don't develop an OS/interface for a device only to conduct UX tests almost before release, only to just scrap it, so this doesn't seem to be likely.
No, I think this was a decision related to the future of Android, ChromeOS or both. Maybe they didn't want to bring ChromeOS touch to devices in order to promote Android in that position. Maybe they thought that in order to better sell the device, a less experimental, and already better known OS would be more beneficial. But this was definitely a product management decision; the developers really don't have that much of a say into what the final product, in terms of being a product, should look like.
A last question I have been pondering, somewhat as a conspiracy theory, whether this has something to do with Sundar Pichai becoming Google CEO. Not to forget, he was (or still is?) head of ChromeOS development before becoming Google CEO. It's possible, but depends on the details. He was announced new CEO on 10th auf August 2015. IMO that would have been still enough time to convert the Pixel C to run Android (the changes are not really too vast). I think it would be doable in 2 to 3 months, with a large enough team, which Google certainly has. Maybe the fallback to Android had already been planned for longer, maybe for different reasons than the final decision, and maybe some Android-relevant/compatible code was already there. That would have shortened the timeframe, in which to convert the device to Android, by a good amount, and would have made a date of mid-August for starting the move to Android realistic.
EDIT: But then, Pichai announced the Pixel C, already running Android, on September 29th. Would a conversion of the device from ChromeOS to Android be doable in just 1.5 months timeframe? Possibly, but it would definitely be rushed. Though AOSP is pretty easy to handle and run on a device if you have the right drivers; this would have meant nvidia providing on their part. Coding a small layer for the EC to accommodate Android...... Maybe this is what happened? Who knows.
What really happened, precisely, is, at this time, anyone's guess. Anyone's but Google's.
there have been a couple stories written mid last year that google wanted to phase out chromeOS and someway merge it with android, then late last year stories that no, that is really not the case google is gonna continue to develop both OS's. assuming that the merge thing was really going on inside google maybe that had something to do with the pixel c mess. about the write protect screw, one thing i had been thinking about is to figure out how to build a small trap door of sorts in the back cover at the point of the screw while at the same time clearing the adhesive to make the remove/replace easier. then, do an exchange plus maybe $100 [to cover mod/shipping]. but before i even attempt to do one device as a prototype i need to see the ifixit or similar teardown to get an idea, after seeing the affected insides, if something like that is even doable. but in theory someone would send in their stock unit and get back the mod device which would have quick easy access to the wp screw, assuming at this point it is something that can be done.
Aka the tablet doesn't know what it should be?
The rush to change it to Android could also show us why it's such a buggy mess. they already said they were gonna launch it at Xmas so I wouldn't be surprised to hear that ti didn't get a proper QA acessment and was just pushed out when they got Android "stable" enough.
The fact it's taken this long for even a statement from Google about the issues is ridiculous and why is it taking so long to fix?
Roxas598 said:
Aka the tablet doesn't know what it should be?
The rush to change it to Android could also show us why it's such a buggy mess. they already said they were gonna launch it at Xmas so I wouldn't be surprised to hear that ti didn't get a proper QA acessment and was just pushed out when they got Android "stable" enough.
The fact it's taken this long for even a statement from Google about the issues is ridiculous and why is it taking so long to fix?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've actually helped a volunteer at Google to debug the WiFi issue, since they knew of me and knew my device is rooted, so I was able to perform diagnostic tests from the side of the device.
It seems to be very difficult to fix simply because it was, so far, not clear what exactly the reason for the WiFi issues is. It doesn't really seem like (only) a hardware issue with lost reception. The WiFi interface also massively drops packets/needs data retransmits, something is going wrong but it's not clear if that happens at the hardware level, the firmware level, or the kernel level.
I also tried to diagnose and possibly fix the WiFi issue myself; so far, no luck.
cheep5k8 said:
I've actually helped a volunteer at Google to debug the WiFi issue, since they knew of me and knew my device is rooted, so I was able to perform diagnostic tests from the side of the device.
It seems to be very difficult to fix simply because it was, so far, not clear what exactly the reason for the WiFi issues is. It doesn't really seem like (only) a hardware issue with lost reception. The WiFi interface also massively drops packets/needs data retransmits, something is going wrong but it's not clear if that happens at the hardware level, the firmware level, or the kernel level.
I also tried to diagnose and possibly fix the WiFi issue myself; so far, no luck.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The WiFi issue is a strange one but I'm on my 2nd pixel and never had an issue with either of them for the WiFi and get max speed 2 floors away :S granted I'm using 5Ghz so not sure if that why. The only major issue is with the touchscreen (and sometimes lag) did you have a look at these at all?
With that WiFi issue people have do you reckon that is what's holding the update back so long? They seem certain the software is what's causing the screen to not respond.
Roxas598 said:
The WiFi issue is a strange one but I'm on my 2nd pixel and never had an issue with either of them for the WiFi and get max speed 2 floors away :S granted I'm using 5Ghz so not sure if that why. The only major issue is with the touchscreen (and sometimes lag) did you have a look at these at all?
With that WiFi issue people have do you reckon that is what's holding the update back so long?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think that it is very difficult to fix, yes.
As for the touchscreen, my Xceed kernel has some patches for the touchscreen included from the chromiumos git which were not yet released as an OTA (I think), so maybe that would be worth a try.
cheep5k8 said:
I think that it is very difficult to fix, yes.
As for the touchscreen, my Xceed kernel has some patches for the touchscreen included from the chromiumos git which were not yet released as an OTA (I think), so maybe that would be worth a try.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would give your kernel a go but I don't really want to mess around with the pixel C too much
As a whole i've kinda slowed down with doing anything to my Android stuff now.
I don't think those fixes have been sent out in the OTA but perhaps they were in the other factory image? I think chainfire said he flashed it and his touchscreen problems have yet to come back.
Roxas598 said:
I would give your kernel a go but I don't really want to mess around with the pixel C too much
As a whole i've kinda slowed down with doing anything to my Android stuff now.
I don't think those fixes have been sent out in the OTA but perhaps they were in the other factory image? I think chainfire said he flashed it and his touchscreen problems have yet to come back.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Possible. IIRC they were only recently commited, but somehow still might be in the new factory image.
cheep5k8 said:
Possible. IIRC they were only recently commited, but somehow still might be in the new factory image.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well if the new update isn't released soon I may just suck it up and start trying out things to help.
Thinking about it since fixes were pushed to the Chromoniumgit is this tablet always gonna contain stuff from ChromeOS?
Roxas598 said:
well if the new update isn't released soon I may just suck it up and start trying out things to help.
Thinking about it since fixes were pushed to the Chromoniumgit is this tablet always gonna contain stuff from ChromeOS?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It can't not be a ChromeOS device. The entire board, basic hardware and firmware setup is built like a Chromebook. It has the Chrome EC, it starts up (boots) like a Chromebook, etc. This can't be realistically changed.
The "only" things really different from a Chromebook are:
- It is a touch-only device (there's the Chromebook Flip but it at least also has a keyboard)
- The storage partition layout has been partially changed so that Android can deal with it
and
- Instead of, at the very end of the boot sequence, booting ChromeOS, it boots Android. But actually, this is the least spectacular and least intricate part about the Pixel C's nature (even though of course a complex matter from a pure Android point of view). Both ChromeOS and Android use a Linux kernel. I'm not even entirely sure whether the Pixel C kernel contains any greater Android-specific adaptations that make it different from a ChromeOS kernel, aside from having a slightly different build configuration. When the Android kernel finally boots (from inside a ChromeOS boot image, may I remind you), it just expects to find a specific partition layout, which is there, and not the biggest problem to arrange. And after that, it just needs the right drivers, and it runs.
So, yes, the Pixel C is very much a ChromeOS device.. a Chromebook without keyboard, if you will, even if there are some people adamantly claiming the opposite. It just happens to run Android.
cheep5k8 said:
I've actually helped a volunteer at Google to debug the WiFi issue, since they knew of me and knew my device is rooted, so I was able to perform diagnostic tests from the side of the device.
It seems to be very difficult to fix simply because it was, so far, not clear what exactly the reason for the WiFi issues is. It doesn't really seem like (only) a hardware issue with lost reception. The WiFi interface also massively drops packets/needs data retransmits, something is going wrong but it's not clear if that happens at the hardware level, the firmware level, or the kernel level.
I also tried to diagnose and possibly fix the WiFi issue myself; so far, no luck.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for this post, information, and your efforts! It really sounds like this is a Frankenstein device. I returned mine because I didn't have confidence the google devs would be able to fix the poor wifi (especially wireless N) any time soon as they were requesting debugging reports from users here:
https://productforums.google.com/fo...ce=footer#!msg/nexus/CM9tv3pjTfQ/QY0xGoTMAgAJ
There were simply too many problems. I had wifi and touchscreen issues on both units I tried. Again, thanks for the info and effort. I keep reading about this device with hope it all gets fixed but that seems like it might be a while.
cheep5k8 said:
It can't not be a ChromeOS device. The entire board, basic hardware and firmware setup is built like a Chromebook. It has the Chrome EC, it starts up (boots) like a Chromebook, etc. This can't be realistically changed.
The "only" things really different from a Chromebook are:
- It is a touch-only device (there's the Chromebook Flip but it at least also has a keyboard)
- The storage partition layout has been partially changed so that Android can deal with it
and
- Instead of, at the very end of the boot sequence, booting ChromeOS, it boots Android. But actually, this is the least spectacular and least intricate part about the Pixel C's nature (even though of course a complex matter from a pure Android point of view). Both ChromeOS and Android use a Linux kernel. I'm not even entirely sure whether the Pixel C kernel contains any greater Android-specific adaptations that make it different from a ChromeOS kernel, aside from having a slightly different build configuration. When the Android kernel finally boots (from inside a ChromeOS boot image, may I remind you), it just expects to find a specific partition layout, which is there, and not the biggest problem to arrange. And after that, it just needs the right drivers, and it runs.
So, yes, the Pixel C is very much a ChromeOS device.. a Chromebook without keyboard, if you will, even if there are some people adamantly claiming the opposite. It just happens to run Android.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep I totally understand now. Man what a Frankenstein tablet but as long as they fix the issues with touch and some lagging here and there I'll be totally happy with it (as long as multi window is in N)
But since its a ChromeOS device could say Google release a flashable Chrome OS for it that would work? For people who have the keyboard anyway. Not saying they would but I'd much prefer Chrome OS tbh
Roxas598 said:
Yep I totally understand now. Man what a Frankenstein tablet but as long as they fix the issues with touch and some lagging here and there I'll be totally happy with it (as long as multi window is in N)
But since its a ChromeOS device could say Google release a flashable Chrome OS for it that would work? For people who have the keyboard anyway. Not saying they would but I'd much prefer Chrome OS tbh
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, they theoretically could very much do so.
So I have been talking with some friends, and I am going to go ahead with a KickStarter for a modular phone.
Now before you say: "That has been tried", you are right. However, Project Ara and Phonebloks were just TOO out there. The engineers that thought those projects were a good idea need to be beat -- but I digress.
What I have in mind is a little more like a PC. You have a case (shell), you have RAM, and CPU/GPU, power supply (battery)
In the shell, you get the cameras, touch sensor, screen, choice of single or dual batteries.
The only components that will be replaceable are:
* CPU (which has the GPU and modem)
* NAND
* Battery
Basically the idea is that you pick a "shell" that you like:
* 5" / 5.5" / 6" (OLED / LCD)
* Camera choices [insert here]
* Single or dual battery
* Single or dual SIM
etc
CPU/GPU
* SD820
* SD835
* SD845
NAND
* 16gig
* 32gig
* 64gig
* 128gig
These are just examples... The purpose of this post is to get ideas on what YOU want. There can only be so many choices, or manufacturing would be a nightmare.
The important part is that you would be able to UPGRADE. Say a SD855 comes out, you don't throw / sell your whole phone, you just pull out the CPU/GPU module and replace it.
So, give me some ideas as to what should be in the shell. IP67 / IP68 will probably not be possible. I don't know enough to say one way or the other right now, but assume it isn't.
Again, this is JUST hardware, don't worry about the software side of things. I will outline what I have in mind, in the next post, along with how security will be handled. Suffice it to say, I will take what I have learned about POSSIBLE holes, and close them. From the factory, the phone will be the more secure than the iPhone, but more importantly, if YOU want to control that security, you will be able to. More to come when I finish crafting up the software / security post.
-- Brian
So, software and security, how can you eat your cake and have it too?
By default, the phone will come locked. It will use an RSA key that is kept under lock and key. There will be no traditional download mode, or recovery. There will be no adb, no fastboot.
When you boot the phone, the only thing you will get is the OS. So let's say a kernel exploit comes along, or something like Janus that allows you to modify a signed app -- there is no way to install it because you won't even have a terminal. All thanks to SELinux. But OK, someone finds some exploit to modify system -- it is write protected at the hardware level.
I have had a LOT of time to think about how to seal every last hole in Andorid, but, I will be consulting with actual security experts to make sure nothing is missed. I mean look at the Switch, if you have the right hardware you can use attack vectors that you might not think of from a "closed box" mentality -- I want to avoid those as well.
So, how do you get control of YOUR phone?
When the phone boots, you will be required to input a PIN, password, key (I am not sure about the technical details on this one yet) that will give you access to an unlock port. In the future, if you want to unlock your phone, you will go to a website just like you do to unlock carrier free LG phones, and download a file that is unique to your phone. This will NOT void your warranty. You will then use this file, along with your (pin, password, key) to unlock your phone.
It will be done this way for a couple of reasons. Before getting the file, you will be made aware that your phone's security is now YOUR responsibility. If you leave it unlocked, then anyone that has physical access to it can install pretty much whatever they want.
Once unlocked, you will have access at the PBL level. If you just want root, you can flash a vendor supported version of TWRP (no point in reinventing the wheel), you will then be able to flash a vendor supported kernel that will allow you to modify system. Viola -- you have root.
So how do you secure your phone again? You will have the ability to install your own RSA key. There will be three modes that the phone will run in:
* Fully secure stock from factory
* Fully unlocked
* Relocked with YOUR key.
This last mode will have two modes:
* Hybrid - all the firmware is still verified by the factory key, but boot and system are verified with your key.
* Developer - all the firmware needs to be signed with your key.
Tools will be provided to make this very easy, but at the end of the day, if you have an unlocked phone, security is up to you.
So how about OTA updates? They will only be available on a factory locked phone. Once the phone is unlocked, you will have to download updates yourself. If you have installed your own keys, then you will be able to sign the updates. This allows you to keep your phone locked. If you have a fully unlocked phone, then you can just flash the unsigned updates.
By updates, so far I have been referring to just the firmware, not the OS. So what about the OS?
From the factory, the phone will ship with bone stock Android. As long as you don't install another ROM, you will be able to update your OS as well.
So what if you want to install another ROM? Have at it, but you can no longer take OS updates -- but you can take firmware updates.
So what about third party ROMs? It is always a bit of a pain to get a ROM running a new phone because vendors don't want to help -- we will. We will have a development community run by our programmers for the specific purpose of helping to get a ROM ported.
So you don't want to run Android? Fine, again, you will be able to have access all the way from the PBL. You can't modify the PBL -- that is on the CPU, but the first thing that the PBL loads is the XBL, and you will be able to run whatever you want.
So how do we get this past the FCC? Modem firmware will be the one no no. Sorry, that is just life. Take it up with the FCC. The thing is, you will have no reason to modify, or install different modem firmware. From the factory, all bands will be available, so you gain nothing.
If all of this sounded to technical, then I can sum it up with -- the phone will be yours. Do as little or as much as you want with it. Just know that from the factory, it will be the most secure phone ever made -- but also, even if you modify it, YOU can KEEP it secure.
-- Brian
Reserved for FAQ
runningnak3d said:
snip-- Brian
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So what do we do, donate a certain amount of money? If that's the case, is it fair to say this would need about 100k to get going? I know China can manufacture things really cheap. Though I think there is much more too it.
Also I want to see a quad DAC. Dual speakers, Dolby Atmos. Refresh rate of 120 like the Razer phone. 4gb of ram. SD card slot. Official XDA Android with XDA labs baked in.
Sent from my LG V20 using XDA Labs
I am willing to donate too ☺
BROKEN1981 said:
So what do we do, donate a certain amount of money? If that's the case, is it fair to say this would need about 100k to get going? I know China can manufacture things really cheap. Though I think there is much more too it.
Also I want to see a quad DAC. Dual speakers, Dolby Atmos. Refresh rate of 120 like the Razer phone. 4gb of ram. SD card slot. Official XDA Android with XDA labs baked in.
Sent from my LG V20 using XDA Labs
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I don't want any app baked into my OS that is not mandatory for the phone to work.
Going along the lines of what has been done on the v20, including a 3.5mm jack would be sweet. So many phones are getting rid of them and they are still a very useful port. Also a nice dac and amp of some sort to output great audio would be awesome. If possible, up the capacity of the battery from the v20's 3200 mAh. It just isn't enough in some cases.
toastyp said:
Going along the lines of what has been done on the v20, including a 3.5mm jack would be sweet. So many phones are getting rid of them and they are still a very useful port. Also a nice dac and amp of some sort to output great audio would be awesome. If possible, up the capacity of the battery from the v20's 3200 mAh. It just isn't enough in some cases.
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Thankfully, a DAC implies that there is an analog audio jack. Otherwise, what are you converting? I mean, it's not technically a rule because you could do something insane (and proprietary) with the USB-C port, but why?
I would like to see a quad DAC and 120hz screen. A back power button with the fingerprint scanner would also be nice
Since most people here are going to be V20 owners, I think the V20 chassis is a solid starting point. Ignoring all the hypothetically changeable hardware components, what we have left to consider are a screen, fingerprint reader, A/V options, port connectivity, camera, and aesthetic design considerations.
Personally, I would just clone the V20 and make the main and secondary screens OLED. I think the curved corners that have become the rage on newer phones are stupid (We spent over a decade getting away from rounded corners in UI design, and now people want them physically on their screens? FOH), but the screen must be 18:9 if those are going to make an appearance. Some people might prefer the 3.5mm jack on top, but it has no practical effect on me either way. Stereo speakers could be a consideration, but I don't use phone speakers for music playback.
Apart from that, I have a hard time thinking of other hardware features or predicting what hardware features may catch on in the future.
VZW compatibility
Implementing the volume rocker on the back instead of the side is a must. It'd add a touch of originality again since LG decided to join the bandwagon
Edit: and adding an extra hardware button we can map. Like how you can map the Bixby button on the galaxies
Always wondered why know one attempted to do this years ago, upgradable like a pc.
But i think you can go one step further and give a choice of screens also OLED or LCD since you say you have the software side covered then implementing different screens but the same size would be easy.
in the shell i guess a dedicated dac, ear phone jack,
Would this be modular as In DIY upgradable nand/cpu or would it be made to order.
I see alot of brickwalls as you cannot simply order a snapdragon 835 online in single digits....so im guessing this is made to order to your preference.
There a companys where you can do this but the quantity is in the hundreds where you make to order slap your logo on.
Not really sure what the aim is?
Zyker019 said:
Implementing the volume rocker on the back instead of the side is a must. It'd add a touch of originality again since LG decided to join the bandwagon
Edit: and adding an extra hardware button we can map. Like how you can map the Bixby button on the galaxies
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I would never buy a device with volume on the back. It makes no sense.
Sent from my LG V20 using XDA Labs
Software post updated, and I will update the FAQ, and hardware sections ASAP. To address some of the posts so far, yes, it WILL have a 3.5mm analog jack. I need to do some research, but I may add the DAC as a replaceable part.
@goulash2011 Yea, purchasing quantity is something I am working on.
This is a build to order phone, but it will be up (or downgradeable).
-- Brian
Umm well, I am not sure why this didn't turn up in my first searches for modular phones: https://www.fairphone.com/en/our-goals/design/
If you read their site, it sound like I ripped this post straight from it. I didn't. They have the exact idea, but it appears that they are having some issues with demand (you have to get on a waiting list). Also, the modules haven't been updated in a while. If nothing else, it proves it can be done, I am going to contact them and try to find out when they plan on (or if they do) releasing an SD835 module, and for that matter a 2k screen.
They actually went above and beyond what I had in mind for modules... if you have the time, their site is a good read. They are also looking to be very open with the software, but it doesn't look like they care as much about security.
-- Brian
This project sounds really cool and I have got a few ideas for the cameras sensors:
OV12890 - 1.55 µm / 12MP / 240fps /1080p / 60fps 4K 1/2.3"
This is an Omnivison sensor (probably cheaper than an IMX) which is basically a carbon copy of the IMX 378 with bumped up fps in video. I know these are FPS in perfect hardware conditions, but with a snapdragon 835 and native support for HDR this camera may be one of the best in a smartphone from a hardware perspective.
OS08A10 - 2 µm / 8MP / 120fps 1080p / 60fps 4K / 1/2"
I know this is a bit of a stretch, the sensor is very large in the smartphone industry but i am sure you can make space for it. Just imagine coupled with a low aperture lens the low light shots and videos from this thing .
IMX230 - 1.12 µm / 21MP / 60fps 1080p / 30fps 4K / 1/2.4"
This Sony IMX sensor may not seem too impressive but the photos are packed with detail especially when paired with Googles HDR algorithm, from a software standpoint this can be the perfect ratio of pixel size to MP, so you can sacrifice megapixels although still retain the same detail with a 12MP image with virtually no noise. While the pictures are very nice, videos are mostly just above average with nothing too fancy.
All of these sensors are not really mainstream so prices should not be to bad.
I think you could also make dual camera setups where people can buy basically two sensors in special enclosure, a nice combination would be the OV12890 and the IMX 230 with the OV12890 being the main sensor doing video and primary camera functions while IMX is 230 more in the back end which can enhance the resolution, de-noise images, add more data in RAW shots, maybe be used as a telephoto or wide angle sensor and of course portrait mode.
Another dual setup could be simply two OV12890 sensors with again the second sensor adding portrait capabilities, more RAW data, ect... but a key feature could be true 480fps 1080p slo motion I know this may sound stupid but when the primary sensor takes its first frame the secondary sensor takes its frame from the interval between the time it takes to get to the second frame to be taken which essentially doubles the frames per second, this may be possible but the snapdragon 835 although it may not be able to support this as it is a very stressful workload, you could do what Sony did with XZ Premium with short bursts of slo mo or instead of rendering the image live, it can be done at the end where the software stitches the video together. This can also work in favor for HDR stitching with both sensors taking burst photos giving double the output of a conventional sensor.
That was a very insightful post, and all of it doable. However, I have to find out what problems fairphone is running into:
* Noise on the bus?
* General manufacturing problems
* Money problems? Can't generate enough cash to buy in large enough quantity?
* Patent issues?
My main beef is still software. My G4 runs Oreo just fine, but nooooo LG wants me to buy a V30 if I want Oreo. That is horsesh**
-- Brian
runningnak3d said:
Umm well, I am not sure why this didn't turn up in my first searches for modular phones: https://www.fairphone.com/en/our-goals/design/
If you read their site, it sound like I ripped this post straight from it. I didn't. They have the exact idea, but it appears that they are having some issues with demand (you have to get on a waiting list). Also, the modules haven't been updated in a while. If nothing else, it proves it can be done, I am going to contact them and try to find out when they plan on (or if they do) releasing an SD835 module, and for that matter a 2k screen.
They actually went above and beyond what I had in mind for modules... if you have the time, their site is a good read. They are also looking to be very open with the software, but it doesn't look like they care as much about security.
-- Brian
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Click to collapse
I think I see the problem. The mods are a bit expensive, not too many people would be interested, meaning hardly any demand. To keep cost down, you need to involve China. Look at the growing pains of 1+.
I hate to be so negative, but upgradable phones will always be a dead project.
Sent from my LG V20 using XDA Labs
BROKEN1981 said:
I think I see the problem. The mods are a bit expensive, not too many people would be interested, meaning hardly any demand. To keep cost down, you need to involve China. Look at the growing pains of 1+.
I hate to be so negative, but upgradable phones will always be a dead project.
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Not being negative.. Just setting a marketing reality. Which I completely agree with. It's to far and beyond for the current market of things.