Related
He makes some good points.
Android Is As Open As The Clenched Fist I’d Like To Punch The Carriers With
MG Siegler
Sep 9, 2010
This past weekend, I wrote a post wondering if Android was surging in the U.S. market because Apple was letting it? The main thought was that by remaining exclusively tied to AT&T, Apple was driving some users to choose Android, which is available on all the U.S. carriers. In the post, I posed a question: if it’s not the iPhone/AT&T deal, why do you choose Android? Nearly 1,000 people responded, and a large percentage focused on the same idea: the idea of “openness.”
You’ll forgive me, but I have to say it: what a load of crap.
In theory, I’m right there with you. The thought of a truly open mobile operating system is very appealing. The problem is that in practice, that’s just simply not the reality of the situation. Maybe if Google had their way, the system would be truly open. But they don’t. Sadly, they have to deal with a very big roadblock: the carriers.
The result of this unfortunate situation is that the so-called open system is quickly revealing itself to be anything but. Further, we’re starting to see that in some cases the carriers may actually be able to exploit this “openness” to create a closed system that may leave you crying for Apple’s closed system — at least theirs looks good and behaves as expected.
Case in point: the last couple of Android phones I’ve gotten as demo units from Google: the EVO 4G and the Droid 2, have been loaded up with crapware installed by the carriers (Sprint and Verizon, respectively). Apple would never let this fly on the iPhone, but the openness of Android means Google has basically no say in the matter. Consumers will get the crapware and they’ll like it. Not only that, plenty of this junk can’t even be uninstalled. How’s that for “open”?
And this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Earlier this year, Verizon rolled out its own V Cast app store on some BlackBerry devices. This occurred despite that fact that BlackBerry devices have their own app store (App World). From what we’re hearing, Verizon is also planning to launch this store on their Android phones as well in the future. Obviously, this store would be pre-installed, and it would likely be more prominently displayed than Android’s own Market for apps.
Does V Cast have some good content? Probably. But most of it is undoubtedly crap that Verizon is trying to sell you for a high fee. But who cares whether it’s great or it’s crap — isn’t the point of “open” supposed to be that the consumer can choose what they want on their own devices? Instead, open is proving to mean that the carriers can choose what they want to do with Android.
It’s too bad, but there is now a very real risk that the carriers are going to exploit the open system Google set up in order to create a new version of the bull**** proprietary ecosystems that they had before the iPhone came along and turned the market on its side.
And it’s not just Verizon, it’s all the carriers. One of the great features of Android is that you can install apps without going through an app store, right? Well, not if you have an a Motorola Backflip or a HTC Aria running on AT&T — they’ve locked this feature down. How? Thanks to the open Android OS.
Oh, and how about tethering? It’s one of the truly great features of Android 2.2, right? Well, not if you have a carrier that doesn’t want to support it. Google has to defer to them to enable their own native OS feature. It’s such an awesome feature — in the hands of Google. Once the carriers get their hands on it — not so much.
Speaking of Android 2.2, you know it’s out there right? You’ll be forgiven if you don’t because a whopping 4.5 percent of you Android users are currently running it, according to Google’s dashboard. And again, that’s not Google’s fault, that’s all the carriers. Incredibly, over 35 percent of you still aren’t even running any version of Android 2.x. It’s pathetic.
Apple gets crap for not supporting phones that are three years old with OS updates — the open Android system can’t even upgrade phones that are only a few months old in some cases — again, all thanks to the carriers.
The excuses for why this is run rampant. They need to tweak their custom skins, they need to test the new software, etc. It’s all a bunch of garbage. This is an open platform and yet you’re more restricted than on Apple’s supposedly closed one.
What happens when Verizon won’t update your phone to the latest greatest Android software — not because they can’t, but because they want you to upgrade to a new piece of hardware and sign the new two-year agreement that comes along with it? The game remains the same.
My point is not to bash Google — what they’ve created is an excellent mobile operating system. My point is that the same “openness” that Android users are touting as a key selling point of the OS could very well end up being its weak point. If you don’t think Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile, and Sprint are going to try to commandeer the OS in an attempt to return to their glory days where we were all slaves to their towers, you’re being naive.
“Open” is great until you have to define it or defend it. I’m not sure Google can continue to do either in this situation.
And before all of you pros storm the comments with how great it is to root your Android phones, consider the average consumers here. They are the ones being screwed by this exploitation of “open.” Anyone with the desire to do so can fairly easily hack an iPhone too. Open is not a reason to choose Android + carrier vs. iPhone + AT&T.
Update: Oh, and one more great example Michael Prassel reminded me of in the comments — do you want Skype on your Android phone? Well, I hope you have Verizon because otherwise you won’t be able to install it. “Open.” We’re only going to see more of this, not less.
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MG Siegler is a piece of trash. All his articles about Android are flame-bait garbage.
Look for his other gems such as:
Is Android Surging Only Because Apple Is Letting It?
http://techcrunch.com/2010/09/05/apple-android/
Wait, So 20 Phones On 4 Carriers Outsold 1 Phone On 1 Carrier? Shocking.
http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/02/iphone-android-sales/
Clearly he's gone off the deep-end and is upset that Android has surpassed his oh-so beloved iphone. So now he results to attacking Android like a 3 year old.
I no longer read Tech Crunch. And you should too if you want unbiased news, which you obviously won't get from this Apple fanboy flamer.
Pure trash.
Paul22000 said:
MG Siegler is a piece of trash. All his articles about Android are flame-bait garbage.
Look for his other gems such as:
Is Android Surging Only Because Apple Is Letting It?
http://techcrunch.com/2010/09/05/apple-android/
Wait, So 20 Phones On 4 Carriers Outsold 1 Phone On 1 Carrier? Shocking.
http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/02/iphone-android-sales/
Clearly he's gone off the deep-end and is upset that Android has surpassed his oh-so beloved iphone. So now he results to attacking Android like a 3 year old.
I no longer read Tech Crunch. And you should too if you want unbiased news, which you obviously won't get from this Apple fanboy flamer.
Pure trash.
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Even if he is an iphone lover, this particular post has some validity. The carriers really are screwing android over. My brother recently bought a Droid X with verizon and asked me to help him root cause he has absolutely no clue on how to do it. He wanted tethering because verizon, like ATnT is charging extra if you want to use tethering natively. So I went a head and root his phone and the phone is nice by all means, but V-Cast was an annoying piece of sh*t that pops up NO MATTER what when you connect your phone to your PC. For users like you and I who do know how to root and reap the benefits then its no problem because we can just ADB remove everything we dont like. But what about for people like my brother? They are stuck with ****ware and functionality like tethering that SHOULD be basic and free, but are forced to pay for if they want to use it. My 2cents, go figure.
Paul22000 said:
MG Siegler is a piece of trash. All his articles about Android are flame-bait garbage.
Look for his other gems such as:
Is Android Surging Only Because Apple Is Letting It?
http://techcrunch.com/2010/09/05/apple-android/
Wait, So 20 Phones On 4 Carriers Outsold 1 Phone On 1 Carrier? Shocking.
http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/02/iphone-android-sales/
Clearly he's gone off the deep-end and is upset that Android has surpassed his oh-so beloved iphone. So now he results to attacking Android like a 3 year old.
I no longer read Tech Crunch. And you should too if you want unbiased news, which you obviously won't get from this Apple fanboy flamer.
Pure trash.
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That might be true (I haven't read his other pieces), but he's spot-on here. The fact that many (MANY) Android phones don't have any planned upgrade paths to Android 2.2 (some are still running Android 1.6!) simply because the carriers or phone manufacturers say so is quite telling. On the other hand, someone with an original iPhone, which is just turning three years old, can update their OS to 4.0 and enjoy at least some of the new features the platform has to offer.
At its core, Android is quite open. I can download the source for Android 2.2 right now, build it and run it on any ARM-compatible device without repercussion. Not so for iPhone OS. However, the experience that users actually care about is practically indifferent from its competitor and theoretically worse because carriers have much more sway in controlling it than AT&T (or any other carrier that receives it) does on the iPhone. (Verizon's future app store is a case-in-point example, especially if it "replaces" Android market on the devices that will be getting it.)
Zephyron said:
But what about for people like my brother? They are stuck with ****ware and functionality like tethering that SHOULD be basic and free, but are forced to pay for if they want to use it. My 2cents, go figure.
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Everybody has got to start somehwere.
typ_ex said:
Everybody has got to start somehwere.
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That is also true, my brother was just being a lazy ass
This is one of the reasons why carriers love Android.
Yes, it's as open as it can get.
Yes, its openness is exploited by carriers, forcing devices to be lacking functionality / installing bloatware / etc.
These things don't contradict each other.
For a "stupid" end user, there isn't much choice - not all carriers offer vanilla Android devices. On the other hand, the same goes for iPhone - whatever you got there, you got there, whatever apps are supplied by the carrier - you get, if the carrier allows you to tether - it'll make sure you pay for it, and you'll be damn sure you can't install anything unofficial.
For a bit more advanced user, openness is great - once protections are bypassed (and they're bypassed on every device), ROM developers can turn those phones into whatever they want, and since the core of the system is open, you get all the services this core offers you, and carriers can't do a thing.
Not any different from the iPhone that the writer keeps comparing to.
The points are good and true as long as they're taken away from the context of that crappy and intentionally twisted article.
Siegler and arrington are horrible writers, I feel for the other writers at techcrunch because most of the others are good. But any article by those two I take as nothing more then trolling for ad hits, even if somewhere in their crap writing is a few valid points.
If they aren't paid directly by apple they have definite stock interest.
He asks 1000 presumably non-average readers of TechCrunch why THEY chose Android and when they say "openness" he's no longer interested and wants to "consider the average consumer". Who knows what they think dude, they've been buying iPhones, go sit outside a strip mall and ask them? He is essentially arguing with himself here
I'm pretty sure all the people who realize bloatware sucks have the knowledge to do some simple Google searches on how to use ADB.
Just sayin'...
AT&T doesn't put bloatware onto their iPhone's because it's ONLY on AT&T, that in itself is a crime. I guarantee once iPhone is available on other carriers it will have some sort of crap on it... and it won't be removable at all.
You don't even have to root your Android phone to remove crap
In the UK the iPhone is available on all carriers, and there is nothing added to any of them, it's the same ROM for all, how it should be. It's one thing Apple have done right.
Rusty! said:
In the UK the iPhone is available on all carriers, and there is nothing added to any of them, it's the same ROM for all, how it should be. It's one thing Apple have done right.
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Really? Well I take back what I said then.
Even though it SHOULDN'T be this way at all. Carriers can do what the hell they want. At least I have a choice between many phones other than just one.
Meh, maybe Gingerbread will change things. I don't think bloatware deteriorates the OS as a whole.. I just think it shouldn't be there... and it's very easy to remove anyway.
Rusty! said:
In the UK the iPhone is available on all carriers, and there is nothing added to any of them, it's the same ROM for all, how it should be. It's one thing Apple have done right.
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Yeah, too bad our botched american system of using cell carriers isnt more similar to the way the rest of the world does it. Then everyone would be happi...(er)
Rusty! said:
In the UK the iPhone is available on all carriers, and there is nothing added to any of them, it's the same ROM for all, how it should be. It's one thing Apple have done right.
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Do the android phones have carrier bloat in them or are they as vanilla as the iphones?
Blueman101 said:
Yeah, too bad our botched american system of using cell carriers isnt more similar to the way the rest of the world does it. Then everyone would be happi...(er)
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Free enterprise system at its finest!
EDIT: Not sayin' everyone else is commie....
Before getting a Nexus One, i made sure i researched what android OS is and even bought a used MT3G to root the hell out of it, unroot it, flash radios do all sorts of crap to it and learn as much as i want and now i can say i am pretty confident and things have gotten easier than before.
To get an android phone for my wife i have to wait 2-3 months after a phone is released to see how much support it gets from the community that is how sad android has turned into, the nexus one is great because is open, however i will not expect samsung, lg or any carrier having the intentions on supporting old phones because they don't make money.
If carriers keep butchering android people may start looking the other way.
SiNJiN76 said:
Do the android phones have carrier bloat in them or are they as vanilla as the iphones?
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Android phones get bloatware/branding
O2 still haven't released 2.2 for the Desire over here, and Vodafone were in the middle of a huge ****storm when they released a branding OTA update when everyone was expecting Froyo.
Buying your own SIM free phone is the way forward.
greenstuffs said:
To get an android phone for my wife i have to wait 2-3 months after a phone is released to see how much support it gets from the community that is how sad android has turned into,
If carriers keep butchering android people may start looking the other way.
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Totally agree.
I would even argue that Android is worse, because you need to root in order to get the most out of it. That's the same as jailbreaking the iPhone (and at least you know that the hacking community for the iphone is going to be huge)
not necessarily, android(non-rooted) lets you do so much more then a jalbroken iphone.
I will give the author credit for calling out Android's "openness", much like the recent net neutrality things going around, the word "open" is an absolute, something that Android is very close to but still isn't 100%. But still a hell of a lot more open the Apples Draconian Totalitarianism system of ruling its users.
What bugs me about this author is his constant smear campaign about android. I can understand not liking something but really?! This guy writes article after article holding Apple in the light and scorning Android for something, then what happens, all the Apple fans ***** and moan about this feature that Android has had for months if not years, then Apple takes that idea calls it revolutionary, markets the hell out of it, then this author writes an article about how Apple is even better with this new feature that he just condemned on the Android platform.
Android is open. Open does not mean it is easy for users to modify nor does it mean that products made over Android has to be open. Anyone can download the source and do what they will with android. Cyanogenmod is an example of a group of users doing what they want with AOSP. Similarly a phone manufacturer or wireless carrier can do whatever they want with it. What people seem to misunderstand is that the manufacturer and carrier are under no obligation to make it easy (or even possible) to modify the android install on a device or use the modifications they create.
This choice was on purpose. If Google went with GPL (forcing the carriers to open their modifications) it would not have been taken up by the carriers. You can argue if this is reasonable but the fact remains the conservative carriers would not take up a GPLd OS at this time. This does not mean the OS is not open, it simply means that the product that is created by a carrier is not in the control of the user.
Does anyone find it ironic that nearly all HTC phones that are launching as part of the W7 campaign are essentially N1's loaded with w7.
All first gen snapdragons, they all share the N1 styling/materials.
Hopefully we can dual boot w7 due to the similarities. =D
I don't think they are but, I need to see a side by side. I thought most of the new w7 phones had better specs then the n1. But, of we have the best community of any phone out. That is why Google needs to make another dev phone it don't need to be called nexus two......
Check out engadget's front page, mozart,shobert,surround, trophy
Not terribly impressed with the W7 OS. From a UI standpoint, I could see the home screen getting very cluttered and I'm not sure if they have any sort of folder management system either to alleviate that. The multitouch zoom and kinetic scrolling in IE looked fluid but not having text reflow hurts. The Bing app was nice, as was the XBOX Live integration which is cool if you're into that but everything else was very meh. Didn't look awful like previous versions of WinMo but nothing that blew me away either. Still well behind Android and iOS even.
WP7 seems very solid in terms of how it is being handled. I love this quote:
http://twitter.com/edbott/statuses/27039322558
All Windows 7 phones will get updates at same time. Carriers don't get to block. (IOW, this ain't Android)
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I wish Google had the balls to do that.
Paul22000 said:
I wish Google had the balls to do that.
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Kind of reminds me of my favorite writer online: MG Seigler of TechCrunch
He really is the voice of the people and calls out Google for folding to the carrier demands like a guy with no confidence that gets walked all over by the hot girl (the carriers) that dont care about anyone else but herself
Here is a great article by MG Seigler on Andy Rubin making excuses for Google folding to whatever the carriers demand so that they can stay in bed with the enemy carriers: http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/08/android-carriers/
Google really needs to grow a pair and take control of Android. A carrier holding out an OS update just so they can force up to purchase a new phone might be the norm but that doesn't mean its right or should be tolerated by Google
Google, by definition, can't control android, do you poeple not understand that?
JCopernicus said:
Google, by definition, can't control android, do you poeple not understand that?
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Damn straight.
JCopernicus said:
Google, by definition, can't control android, do you poeple not understand that?
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That's weird I wonder why I even got heated in my post above
I mean hell... thats the whole reason why I got the Nexus One! to not have to deal with carrier games anymore
You meant to say that they cant control android but wield a mighty big stick with gapps didnt you? I tried cm without gapps, pretty much cuts the nuts right off the little android leaving it ineffectual.
in-ef-fec-tu-al adjective 1 Weak. 2 Without satisfactory or decisive effect. 3 Powerless, impotent. 4 Insufficent to produce the desired result.
MS does something right for once in the smartphone arena. Can't we just give credit when it's due?
Text reflow? As far as I know even in CM I have to double tap the browser page to get it to reflow.
The UI looks sweet as hell and not having to worry about carrier tied updates?
Priceless.
I really didn't like the W7 UI, no place for wallpapers and that it's a very negative thing for me
It had a very nice style IMO. I doubt I'll move from my N1, but it's definitely gonna be an interesting game here on out.
ap3604 said:
Kind of reminds me of my favorite writer online: MG Seigler of TechCrunch
He really is the voice of the people and calls out Google for folding to the carrier demands like a guy with no confidence that gets walked all over by the hot girl (the carriers) that dont care about anyone else but herself
Here is a great article by MG Seigler on Andy Rubin making excuses for Google folding to whatever the carriers demand so that they can stay in bed with the enemy carriers: http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/08/android-carriers/
Google really needs to grow a pair and take control of Android. A carrier holding out an OS update just so they can force up to purchase a new phone might be the norm but that doesn't mean its right or should be tolerated by Google
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So do you think you can just build AOSP and dump the result on any phone? No, it has to be tailored per-phone.. What changes there are between phones I wouldn't know, not a rom cook, but I suspect the complexity/time needed ranges from trivial to impossible (HW limitations).
So therefore, Google is not going to build, test, and deploy a build for every Android phone ever made. The carriers have NO INCENTIVE to support older phones.. They have gotten better about this, but they still have no reason to do it honestly, it's not like other industries where hardware sales lose money (printers, game systems, many others) and therefore they need to stretch the users experience with the hardware to the max. Phone sales net the carriers extended contracts and money.
JCopernicus said:
Google, by definition, can't control android, do you poeple not understand that?
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Actually they can, very easily:
Carrier/Manufacturer: Hey Google, we're going to release a phone with Android 1.5, replace your search with Bing, add some crap-ware, and remove a bunch of useful Android features!
Google: Oh really? Too bad your Android phone won't have Gmail, Google Maps, Google Talk, YouTube, Google Syncing, OR the Android Market!
Carrier/Manufacturer: Hmm...
Paul22000 said:
Actually they can, very easily:
Carrier/Manufacturer: Hey Google, we're going to release a phone with Android 1.5, replace your search with Bing, add some crap-ware, and remove a bunch of useful Android features!
Google: Oh really? Too bad your Android phone won't have Gmail, Google Maps, Google Talk, YouTube, Google Syncing, OR the Android Market!
Carrier/Manufacturer: Hmm...
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Verizon doesn't seem to care. This does work though it's how android took off. However, not having gapps is more detremental to Google than carriers. At this point in the game android can survive without native Google applications.
khaytsus said:
So do you think you can just build AOSP and dump the result on any phone? No, it has to be tailored per-phone.. What changes there are between phones I wouldn't know, not a rom cook, but I suspect the complexity/time needed ranges from trivial to impossible (HW limitations).
So therefore, Google is not going to build, test, and deploy a build for every Android phone ever made. The carriers have NO INCENTIVE to support older phones.. They have gotten better about this, but they still have no reason to do it honestly, it's not like other industries where hardware sales lose money (printers, game systems, many others) and therefore they need to stretch the users experience with the hardware to the max. Phone sales net the carriers extended contracts and money.
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So basically you're justifying carriers holding off hardware updates so that people can dump their 6 month old phone for a new one just to get from 2.1 to 2.2?
That's BS and you know it.
Android gets a new version every other month, and if they do this and leave older users in the dark with carriers blocking updates, Android is NEVER going to be real competition to iOS.
Hardware is just another BS excuse. 2.2 runs fine on even the HTC Dream.
mynameisjon said:
Android gets a new version every other month, and if they do this and leave older users in the dark with carriers blocking updates, Android is NEVER going to be real competition to iOS.
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Android sold more units in Q2 2010 than iOS, so surely its already real competition?
Is just me or is one of the biggest faults with android the various phone form factors that make it impossible to standardize any accessories? Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to be locked into a single phone running android but it seems the phone manufacturers could maybe design their phones so they have common ports for accessories. I guess we are lucky we at least got a desktop and car dock. Even cars are coming with iphone, ipad docks, you'll never see an android dock.
JCopernicus said:
Google, by definition, can't control android, do you poeple not understand that?
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Google, from a business perspective, doesn't need to control android.
its not its number one priority. yes it could try to twist the carrier's arms, and yes most would fold, but even if only 1 of the big 4 refuses to fold and stops carrying android devices google losses.
google doesnt make money off of android. it makes money off of ads. it just wants you to watch the ads through its portals. you might say they lose that when carriers choose bing over google, but really most of the ads (in apps, around the web) are controlled by google because google owns the online ad market. in fact, they will make money off of the spread of windows 7 phones as well. they entered the mobile business just to make sure neither apple nor microsoft could cut them out of the mobile internet user base and therefore limit the number of users viewing their ads.
btw we are in the nexus one section of xda, which by definition means you cant complain about waiting for updates and carrier and manufacturer crippling. (ha! see what i did there?)
I sometimes thing that by introducing updates to the OS so fast is Google doing the right thing.
Before you all start hitting at me please go through these two scenarios
An OS update every year which ensures that there are major changes and upgrade to the OS which will mean devices will have a better chances of getting upgrades as then the developement cost for customization of a device will be once a year
An OS update every three to six months which ensure most of the device are either not updated or when the update is about to be released the new update is already out the perfect scenario is 4 to 4,1 to 4.1.1 to 4.2 LG is still to release update for ICS for some devices, Samsung is still to release update of JB to most of its device and we have an update to JB whats worst is now we are looking upgrade to 4.2.
Every cell phone or table OEM using Android does its own customization to the OS and then there are some locked phones in the US so for them to release a new version they need to customize it first which will have a cost involved and now with these recent sprint of updates by google I am sure most of our device will not go beyond JB some have not even gone beyond GB yet because at the end of the day these companies are here to make profit and if they end up spending more on developement then what they have earned then naturaly they will not do it.
So I feel this should rationalized to make sure the existing owners do not suffer because of this flawed update policy of Google devices
Google OS updates are a total mess. I like how apple do it.
Sent from my GT-N8010 using xda premium
Agreed with you the updates are making life of existing owners misreble hell I cannot afford to upgrade my cell every six months or even a year and a tablet for a couple of years because I am from India do not earn that much and secondly we have to buy outright no contracts so for me this is worst thing to happen My LG optimus 2x is still not being updated to ICS and ICS is already obsolute
samir_a said:
Agreed with you the updates are making life of existing owners misreble hell I cannot afford to upgrade my cell every six months or even a year and a tablet for a couple of years because I am from India do not earn that much and secondly we have to buy outright no contracts so for me this is worst thing to happen My LG optimus 2x is still not being updated to ICS and ICS is already obsolute
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You are right, even there are Samsung tablets in some regions haven't got ics and now Google is releasing 4.2, I have abad feeling from my experience with Samsung tablets that we are not going to get any updates after jellybean
Sent from my X10S using xda app-developers app
To be frank you cannot blame Samsung or for that matter any other manufacturer because these devices are highly customized and for every new version they have do develope the ROM which involves cost naturally even if you are in business you will not spend on developement when the revenue generated from it is surpased by cost of developement
The answer is yes. Stalling leads to less innovation. Besides, the next Jellybean update is not a huge one. This is why I will get a Nexus Phone, because of the updates. As for tha tablet, I can live a little while not having the latest OS.
Google's release planning outwardly looks like it’s being run by a bunch of kids. "Ooh, ooh, we should change how screen orientation works, let's push it out!" There is absolutely no reason they should be pushing out major updates more than twice a year with once a year being ideal. Minor maintenance updates that don’t affect things the manufacturers have written should be pushed out quarterly. The way updates normally work you need to spend as much time considering the impact to your installed base as you do to newer devices. With a set release schedule all those involved know if you want something changed or improved you've got to have it blessed and ready by the revision date. If not, you wait for the next. It's clear they could care less about their installed base. And Nexus devices aren't the answer as they represent less than 5% of Android phones sold. The fragmentation this creates helps no one - customers, manufacturers, app developers, and resellers. And if people have to buy new phones to keep up with the latest Google OS they'll get tired of it eventually and the next new phone they buy could be W8 or iOS. We're Android fans and are loyal. The general populous less so.
This is absolutely unforgivable and is going to come back and bite Google in the ass no matter how many Nexi they create.
With the exception of ^^ Jonphinguyen7, you guys have it completely wrong.
If you prefer Apple, go to Apple, have "fun" but Google keeps up with all updates just like Apple.
We have Android devices [by Samsung, HTC, Motorola, etc].
You want the real Google experience, get a Google device [Nexus].
Updates are NOT that fast either.
Android 3.x Honeycomb -- Feb 2011
Android 4.0.x Ice Cream Sandwich -- Oct 2011
Android 4.1.x Jelly Bean -- July 2012
Blame the lack of updates on the manufacturer.
That's what we get into when we decide to go with a Galaxy Device... i thought everyone knew.
HG! said:
With the exception of ^^ Jonphinguyen7, you guys have it completely wrong.
If you prefer Apple, go to Apple, have "fun" but Google keeps up with all updates just like Apple.
We have Android devices [by Samsung, HTC, Motorola, etc].
You want the real Google experience, get a Google device [Nexus].
Updates are NOT that fast either.
Android 3.x Honeycomb -- Feb 2011
Android 4.0.x Ice Cream Sandwich -- Oct 2011
Android 4.1.x Jelly Bean -- July 2012
Blame the lack of updates on the manufacturer.
That's what we get into when we decide to go with a Galaxy Device... i thought everyone knew.
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You're missing the point completely by assuming your attitude is shared by the majority of phone buyers. Android can't succeed without carrier and manufacturer support. Even Nexus phones on VZW, the biggest carrier in the U.S. and one of the top five in the world, are a train wreck because they use CDMA. Carrier networks while theoretically based on the same technology all have different tweaks that require changes in the radio settings. A generic Nexus device, even on GSM, has problems on certain networks which is why the carrier-sold GN's come in so many different versions. And those carrier GN’s don’t receive updates when Google pushes them out creating the same update frustration for their owners that we’re discussing for the Note.
With 90% of phones sold in the U.S. kept an average of 15 months and subsidized by carriers there is nothing Google can do with its Nexus line that is going to influence the mainstream phone buyer. In market research that's been done those same people also like the features that TouchWiz and Sense provide which is why Samsung and HTC spend so much time and money on their UIs. Enthusiasts like us make up 5% of phone buyers. If Google captures 100% of us and 10% of the rest it's a major fail and a great opportunity for iOS and W8. Google's the "tail," not the "dog" and with Samsung, HTC, Nokia, and Huawei jumping on the W8 band wagon so quickly and heavily you have to ask yourself “why?”
Google's lack of attention to the partners it needs for Android to succeed (carriers, manufacturers) and customers using their OS can't end well when there are viable alternatives like iOS and W8 available from competitors with resources as ample as Google's. The mobile race is in its infancy and anyone can still win and Google needs friends more than they need Key Lime Pie.
This is what Nexus looks like behind the scenes...
Well said also we need to remember Google Nexus devices are again built in partnership unlike Iphone which means they a dependent of someone for the hardware something I find strange and again show how missmanged things are at google is they own motorola but they are not building their flagship nexus devices instead samsung and lg are doing which makes no business sense as it tells that google does not have confidence that moto can build nexus devices if that is the case then why did they buy it. Google needs to understand updates are great but they are useless if they cannot reach majority of their customer base.
HG! said:
With the exception of ^^ Jonphinguyen7, you guys have it completely wrong.
If you prefer Apple, go to Apple, have "fun" but Google keeps up with all updates just like Apple.
We have Android devices [by Samsung, HTC, Motorola, etc].
You want the real Google experience, get a Google device [Nexus].
Updates are NOT that fast either.
Android 3.x Honeycomb -- Feb 2011
Android 4.0.x Ice Cream Sandwich -- Oct 2011
Android 4.1.x Jelly Bean -- July 2012
Blame the lack of updates on the manufacturer.
That's what we get into when we decide to go with a Galaxy Device... i thought everyone knew.
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What you are describing is people who are using unlcoked/unsubsidized GN phones and their numbers are really small compared to the rest of the Android owners. As Barry pointed out, GN phones that are sold by the carriers are not any different when it comes to receiving updates. With this perspective, the people who are enjoying the "real Google experience", which brings frequent updates, is a tiny fraction of their target market, and releasing major updates so often only frustrates both manufacturers and the carriers (at least in the US), not to mention the owners of Android phones/tablets. Just take a look at any carrier-specific forums few days after the release of Android updates and see the slurry of angry comments asking for "where's my update? I'm never buying a Samsung phone/tablet again, etc, etc".
Keep in mind that the relationship between Samsung, HTC, LG, etc. with Google has been based on a "well, there's no other alternative to iOS in the mobile world" argument. Nokia has recently released Windows phones that were received very well as an alternative but couldn't capture significant market share partly due to OS limitations and the "novelty factor". Samsung and HTC had Windows phones before, but none of them were any major players compared to Android or iOS. I don't remember seeing a single commercial touting any Windows phones with the exception of Nokia's recent offerings. Based on what's been published over the years, Google's treatment of this relationship and the fragmentation that it generates with every release have not been received very well by the manufacturers. Like it or not, W8 is designed with mobile platforms in mind first, followed by desktop computing.
As pointed out, the manufacturers of Android devices are not only making W8 tablets, but also many W8 phones, now. Since many people in the US are more familiar with Samsung, HTC and LG, compared to Nokia or Sony Ericsson, the availability of W8 phones will most likely take people away from prospective Android buyers rather than Apple customers. The part of the success of Apple is the unity, integrity and the similarities between MacOS and iOS. In a perfect world, I wouldn't mind using W8 on my desktop, laptop (via bootcamp), tablet and phone (if this happens, I'll be buying a small Android tablet; I'm nostalgic). This is what MS is hoping/planning for, and we'll see how well that could be executed over the next 3-6 months.
If W8 tablets/phones don't generate enough excitement, then we're stuck with Android and Google's further fragmentation. Luckily, Samsung adds a lot more on top of the "plain" Android to keep us happy. I've used my son's Nexus 7 for about a month now, and every single time, I find myself looking for certain components of the TW interface that I'm accustomed to from my Note 10.1. Therefore, I don't see myself buying any Nexus device in the future, but I hope they do well. If the analysts are correct, then Google may be the only manufacturer of high-end Android tablets in the future.
tenderidol said:
people who are enjoying the "real Google experience", which brings frequent updates, is a tiny fraction of their target market.
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And let's be honest. The "real Google experience" is a pretty basic OS tied to Google Apps, Google Music, Google Books, Google TV & Movies, and other things Google wants people to buy. Phones with overlays that integrate features and make them easier to use together are more appealing to the mainstream than having to go out to Play Store and figure out which of the dozens of different alternatives available for a specific chore is going to do what they want it to do. And out of a dozen similar apps 2/3 can be total crap and built in someone's garage. Camry's and Accord's are probably about as commoditized a car as any on the market. Yet they are consistently best sellers. The majority of phone buyers like car buyers aren't looking for a do-it-yourself project. They want something reliable, that's low maintenance, and that they know is going to work and hold up over time. And they are the ones that are going to decide whether Android, W8, or iOS is the best and most prevalent mobile OS.
And Google’s hardware division, Motorola, sending a "f-you” message to their customers by reneging on their commitment to move 2011 high-end devices to JB in violation of the Google-sponsored Open Handset Alliance’s covenants speaks volumes about what’s important to Google. If they keep putting unattainable functionality ahead of their existing customer’s experiences they are going to drive people away.
You all seem to be mistaken on what is the main question at hand. No, Google is not updating too fast, as pointed out with some dates from another poster. The reason it takes too long or never happens (our updates) is because of all the bloat and custom software put into it by manufacturers and OEM's. The "Google Experience" isn't just the main Google apps, it's the OS at it's purest, with no additional features added by manufacturers. Lastly, if you watched the Google I/O you will remember the Google Rep saying that they will be giving update source code to manufacturers six month in advance now, so that they can add all their junk onto it for (hopefully) timely updates.
^OS at its purest requires you to download a lot of 'junk' from playstore to even do basic tasks. Some of the manufacturer customization are useful.
After what happened with Google telling Samsung to change the magazine ux and stuff do you think we will still get the update cause I think they are going to change the ui again.
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Any source?
Yes, but the next generation won't. Devices and updates are developed months and years ahead. So big changes will probably come in the next generation
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Samsung and Google recently sign a new 10yr deal and within that deal Samsung has agreed to cut but on its bloatwares and turn towards a more Google type user interface. Means we will see a cut back on touchwiz, chaton QUOTE: may but stop in favour of Google chat. Mag ui and may other of Samsung's features will lean towards Google. Look in the technology section of Flipboard and you will find a statement from Samsung which talks about what I have mentioned here.
As I know, the South Korean Government forces mobile makers to reduce bloatware. I thought that Magazine UX is Samsungs backup plan: Create a user interface, which makes migration to other brands with more standard interfaces difficult, just like switching between platforms.
And, of course, apps on the Mag Ux launcher have to be aquired via the Samsung store and will be lost if u go Huawei or something.
Google didn't "tell" Samsung to do anything (or vice versa). A cooperation agreement was reached that could range from something as simple as sharing their mutual patent portfolios during litigation to Google using Samsung innovations (like S Pen) on h/w they may develop. Samsung's biggest threat to Google/Android isn't TW and M-UX, it's Tizen. We have no idea what the practical implications of the agreement are and neither does the press OP is quoting. Whatever the deal is it isn't going to be implemented overnight (it's a 10 year deal) and certainly isn't going to affect 2014 devices and that includes the SGS5 which is 90-95% through its development cycle. Samsung's having margin problems because of the maturation of smartphones in Western markets. They aren't going to do anything knee jerk (kill TW and M-UX) that could further exacerbate their financial situation. And many agreements signed in good faith can unravel as each party's interpretation of what they just agreed to is tested as the agreement is implemented.
Where do you guys get this "Clean" Android thing for Samsung??
The *only* official statement regarding the Samsung-Google deal is this:
http://global.samsungtomorrow.com/?p=33461
It's a patent licensing deal, the same deal that Samsung has with IBM and Nokia for years. It's a similar deal for which Samsung paid 650 million to make use of Ericsson patents.
The only source for this new speculation comes from a Re/code's article:
http://recode.net/2014/01/29/after-...will-dial-back-android-tweaks-homegrown-apps/
This is little more than speculation at this time without any proof at all. Do you think Samsung will suddenly change plans for its GS5 UI at this last minute and miss out on sales of millions of units? Why should they do so? What does Samsung gain by this? There is not a single advantage for Samsung by going 'stock-ish' apart for pleasing some irrelevant geeks.
If you think so much about rumours, you need to also think about the rumour reported recently that MS is paying 1 billion to Samsung to start pushing flagship devices with WP.
gamerdad09 said:
Hearsay...
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Additional stories from other sites all quoting the original unsubstantiated story don't make the original story any more valid.
gamerdad09 said:
You have to admit though with Google signing a deal with Samsung, then suddenly selling off Motorola to Lenovo that it all does sound connected.
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Samsung and Google are both public companies that file their financial performance quarterly. When entering deals their only motive is to drive profits and revenue higher. Pure Google devices are attractive to enthusiasts (5% of the market) and, purely because of Google's subsidization, bargain hunters. Samsung's spent billions in R&D on s/w to differentiate their Android devices in the market. Their massive market share would point to that as a successful strategy. What's in it for Samsung to suddenly make "Pure Google" attractive? Going that way relegates them to a defacto h/w purveyor with Google in control of the user experience. Does that seem logical to you or a place Samsung wants to find itself?
As for Motorola, it was a stupid acquisition going in and analysts are relieved Google unwound a bad bet that was a consistent profit drain on Google's earnings. Whether or not it has anything to do with the Samsung/Google deal isn't know and the logic of unloading Motorola stands on its own just fine.
wow, who wants to speculate:
source:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-DGB-40241
Interesting to say the least haha
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All I can say whatever M$ Touches goes to sheeeeet....we all know that...
Is not clear to me: the opening line talks about a "hot startup" and the author refers to Cyanogen; isn't Cyanogen Inc. Actually?
probiewankenobi said:
Is not clear to me: the opening line talks about a "hot startup" and the author refers to Cyanogen; isn't Cyanogen Inc. Actually?
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Yeah they are talking about the company Cyanogen, Inc.
probiewankenobi said:
Is not clear to me: the opening line talks about a "hot startup" and the author refers to Cyanogen; isn't Cyanogen Inc. Actually?
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potato potaaaato how many cyanogenmod do you want?
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EDIT.
very interesting.... thanks!
Cyanogen thinks they can take on Mother Google and open their own App store eco-system.
Even tho CM is big, I doubt they would be successful in this venture, I mean Samsung tried it their Tizen and it isnt doing so hot...
While I agree Google has very strict rules on their eco-system but trying to attempt a new OS while in a fierce battle with iOS and Android, im not sure how well it will do...
gd6noob said:
Cyanogen thinks they can take on Mother Google and open their own App store eco-system.
Even tho CM is big, I doubt they would be successful in this venture, I mean Samsung tried it their Tizen and it isnt doing so hot...
While I agree Google has very strict rules on their eco-system but trying to attempt a new OS while in a fierce battle with iOS and Android, im not sure how well it will do...
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How about CyanogenMod partnered with Microsoft? I guarantee that CyanogenMod announcing their hostilities toward Android/Google a few days before Microsoft announcing investment in them is not a random sequence of events.
Also funny that you say Tizen isn't doing so well. Didn't Samsung just start selling their first Tizen units? I know they were slow getting it out the door, but some reports say they sold 50,000 units in just ten days. Even so, comparing Tizen to iOS, Android or Windows phone is an apples to oranges comparison in many significant respects. Tizen competes in only one segment of Android's broad portfolio, the very low end. Apple isn't there at all and Microsoft barely is.
$50,000 units in ten days isnt a lot for a major player in the smartphone industry... Samsung isnt some unknown chinese manufacture... If samsung fails to meet demands and cuts Tizen, there will be a lot of angry people thus forcing Sansung to keep dumping money... this is a tough question for anyone to answer for its future... Same can be said with Cyanogen, if (and its a big IF) it doesnt pan out for their own version of android can come crawling back using Googles eco-system, would seriously hurt cyanogen...
Microsoft... sure, probably had a big part in convincing Cyanogen to branch off but you know what... whatever MS dips there fingers into, doesnt pan out at all.. lol... Their Windows Phone 7, bombed... Windows Phone 8, little better... Nokia venture, Bombed... Maybe thats why MS wanted to part with CM... who knows....
gd6noob said:
$50,000 units in ten days isnt a lot for a major player in the smartphone industry...
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Compared to what?
Honestly, I think CM have gotten too big for their boots, they're having major delusions of grandeur. Sure, they're the biggest player in the modifying/development community. But in the real world where they're competing against the multi-billion dollar companies, they're just very small fish in a very big pond.
It's understandable that they want to make money off their work, who wouldn't? But their idea of having their own app store is just not going to work. The demand simply isn't there, nobody except the modding community actually knows who CM are. They really need to come back down to earth and concentrate on ensuring their builds are stable instead of pumping themselves up into something they simply aren't.
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timmaaa said:
Honestly, I think CM have gotten too big for their boots, they're having major delusions of grandeur. Sure, they're the biggest player in the modifying/development community. But in the real world where they're competing against the multi-billion dollar companies, they're just very small fish in a very big pond.
It's understandable that they want to make money off their work, who wouldn't? But their idea of having their own app store is just not going to work. The demand simply isn't there, nobody except the modding community actually knows who CM are. They really need to come back down to earth and concentrate on ensuring their builds are stable instead of pumping themselves up into something they simply aren't.
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To be honest this is exactly what everyone says when there is a settled order, and usually when the object of reference has no momemtum or buyin what happens. But not what happens when the reference meets the criteria that Cyanogenmod meets and exceeds.
Just speculating though
they are showing multibillion dollars is not what it takes by free (remember when microsoft and googe started, they were "free" )
Maybe this could be a 2 way street. Microsoft could help CM to take Google down a notch or two and in return CM could help develop a compatibility layer in windows phone to use android apps.
Could just be my pipe dreams.
aj44mc said:
Maybe this could be a 2 way street. Microsoft could help CM to take Google down a notch or two and in return CM could help develop a compatibility layer in windows phone to use android apps.
Could just be my pipe dreams.
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Yeah just dreams lol
timmaaa said:
Honestly, I think CM have gotten too big for their boots, they're having major delusions of grandeur. Sure, they're the biggest player in the modifying/development community. But in the real world where they're competing against the multi-billion dollar companies, they're just very small fish in a very big pond.
It's understandable that they want to make money off their work, who wouldn't? But their idea of having their own app store is just not going to work. The demand simply isn't there, nobody except the modding community actually knows who CM are. They really need to come back down to earth and concentrate on ensuring their builds are stable instead of pumping themselves up into something they simply aren't.
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The issue is that cm is used by a big part of android. People prefer it over stock. Not only they fix bugs as they take it to the next level. Would like to see the plans they have.
jgcaap said:
The issue is that cm is used by a big part of android. People prefer it over stock. Not only they fix bugs as they take it to the next level. Would like to see the plans they have.
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It isn't used by a lot of people though, it's used by a fair proportion of people who modify their phones, but they (modders) only make up a very small percentage of smartphone consumers. The vast majority of average consumers have absolutely no idea who CM are, and probably never will.
CM fix some bugs, but CM also create some bugs. I'm interested to see what plans they have too, but they're seriously overstating their exposure and popularity, that's a big mistake, I predict that their plan to have their own app market is going to fail spectacularly.
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No way I see CM's app store idea working out. If they start development on windows OS apps for Microsoft's app store that's a different story though. Microsoft mobile phones app store is atrocious and if somehow CM is able to bridge windows OS with Google apps, that would be something (like how blackberry OS has the android ability where android apps can be side loaded and run)
I can see a way it works out, if its better, safer, cheaper for developers to use. There are many that find Googles monopoly position appaling as they take a chunk out of the margins.
anyway fun this discussion leaned more towards an app store then the next gen OS to compete with android and apple os
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bachera said:
wow, who wants to speculate:
source:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/BL-DGB-40241
Interesting to say the least haha
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I hope this is just cheap marketing for microsoft. Wasnt android meant to be open? Microsoft and open software does not compute. Android and google can hardly be considered as open either as they require all manufacturers to play their game and I thought that was what cyanogenmod was about once. Maybe no longer.