Hiya,
Im looking at getting a new tablet after getting a little annoyed with my asus t100.
The asus has the bay trail-T Atom Z3740 (t100) the other has a n9210 which is bay trail-M.
Is the bay trail-m more powerfull as i do not believe it has turbo boost. im looking at playing fm14 on the lowest settings so it does not need to be to powerfull as the Atom Z3740 could play it.
The new intel range is confusing me, is it Atom-Celeron-Pentium-Core-Xenon
Rich
Pentium and celeron are legacy products. Bay trail is encroaching on celeron anyway.
Xeon is not a consumer product line. Its for servers.
The current consumer product line is simply
Atom > Core i3 > Core i5 > Core i7. And even then, most consumers wont benefit from the i7.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Pentium and celeron are legacy products. Bay trail is encroaching on celeron anyway.
Xeon is not a consumer product line. Its for servers.
The current consumer product line is simply
Atom > Core i3 > Core i5 > Core i7. And even then, most consumers wont benefit from the i7.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ahhh right the tablet im looking at is this
http://www8.hp.com/uk/en/products/laptops/product-detail.html?oid=6420758#!tab=specs
which says it has a celeron which is a bay trail-m product
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Pentium and celeron are legacy products. Bay trail is encroaching on celeron anyway.
Xeon is not a consumer product line. Its for servers.
The current consumer product line is simply
Atom > Core i3 > Core i5 > Core i7. And even then, most consumers wont benefit from the i7.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Pentium and Celeron are upgraded every time the i3/5/7 family gets upgraded, so I wouldn't call them legacy.
They are more like lower end versions of the above.
I would say Celeron is somewhere in between an i3 and an atom.
With that said, i doubt the performance is noticeable.
Cool that's what I was looking for thought it would be a middle kinda ground between atom and i3
Sent from my C6903 using xda app-developers app
Both are Bay Trail, but are targeted at different platforms. The T100's Z3740 is designed for tablets,
http://ark.intel.com/products/76759
while the Celeron N2910 is for entry notebooks,
http://ark.intel.com/products/76752
with higher SDP (4.5W vs 2W), higher clock (1.6GHz vs 1.3GHz), and can run 64-bit Win (all Bay Trail tablets are 32-bit only, until next year).
Even without Turbo, the N2910 is faster since it runs at 20% higher clock. That would be a noticeable difference. But still, we're talking about an Atom here. The downside is higher power use, hence the 2nd batt in the base of your model.
BTW, the US version of your mentioned hybrid is a bit better with a Pentium N3510, which is also a Bay Trail M, but has a base clock of 2GHz.
http://www.shopping.hp.com/en_US/home-office/-/products/Laptops/HP-Pavilion/E4V88AV
http://ark.intel.com/products/76751
BTW, note that these come with Windows 8, not 8.1.
Thanks for that will have a look at the one you have said.
I know it has 8 but won't it get the free 8.1 update?
Sent from my C6903 using xda app-developers app
Just because you can upgrade to 8.1, doesn't mean you should. HP hasn't certify 8.1 for this model, and Bay Trail already has enough bleeding edge problems with driver support.
More issues: wifi is bgn, ie 2.4GHz only; Miracast won't be possible. 11.6" screen is only 1366x768. Unit is heavy at 3.3lbs (1.71lbs sans base). Battery life is probably poor. No freebie Office like for the smaller 10" devices. On the plus side, you do get 4GB RAM rather than 2GB.
At $600 US, it's expensive. The main reason is Intel's chip pricing. Cel N2910's pricing is $132 retail (HP would've paid less), Z3740 is reportedly $30. The large difference isn't because of performance, but platform positioning. It's likely why Bay Trail T is 32-bit only, because Intel doesn't want it to cannibalize sales of higher-margin parts. It was the same with the netbook.
Even at $30, Bay Trail isn't competitive with ARM SoCs. Intel reportedly will lower Bay Trail parts to $15-20 in 2014.
http://tablet-news.com/2013/10/15/intel-preparing-cheap-bay-trail-chips-for-2014/
To date, there hasn't been many device roll-out for Bay Trail. Pricing is one reason why. Not many people will pay $500-600 for a Bay Trail hybrid, or $300 for a 8" tablet (except for Apple's of course). Asus T100 hits a good price point, but as you found, it has major compromises.
The second reason is that Win 8.1 is a yawner. It may not have the hate that Win 8 engendered, but there is no consumer enthusiasm for it. Going into this shopping season, the hope was that Haswell and Bay Trail, along with 8.1, would kick-start Windows sales. Doesn't look like that will happen. Now you know the real reason why Ballmer is crying his way out the door.
e.mote,
Just because a CPU has higher clock it doesn't mean it is actually better.
An 1Gz i5 is better than an 1.8 ghz Atom. It is all about the architecture, so you can't compare them like that. Celeron is faster than Atom, but the difference won't be noticeable in daily usage (inbefore benchmarks: they are pretty useless for daily usage performance)
As for windows 8/8.1, we understand you can't get your head around using it, but you shouldn't present "general consensus facts" which are exactly the opposite in reality.
>An 1Gz i5 is better than an 1.8 ghz Atom. It is all about the architecture, so you can't compare them like that.
You need to get yourself educated. The above discussion is about the same Silvermont architecture. There is no Core here. The Celeron/Pentium/whatever are brandings applied. A Bay Trail M running at 1.6 or 2GHz is faster than a Bay Trail T at 1.33, period. It is that simple.
>which are exactly the opposite in reality
I'm sure the fanboy's version of reality is indeed different.
e.mote said:
It's likely why Bay Trail T is 32-bit only
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It isn't likely why the Bay Trail T is 32 bit only because Bay Trail T isn't 32 bit only.
Its 64 bit. Go check ark.intel.com yourself, or even the thread on this very forum where someone is attempting to boot linux on the T100.
http://ark.intel.com/products/76759/Intel-Atom-Processor-Z3740-2M-Cache-up-to-1_86-GHz
http://ark.intel.com/products/78416/Intel-Atom-Processor-Z3740D-2M-Cache-up-to-1_86-GHz
http://ark.intel.com/products/76752/Intel-Celeron-Processor-N2910-2M-Cache-1_60-GHz
Celeron drops the variable clock speeds but has a higher RAM cap but at a lower frequency. Celeron maximum graphics core clock is higher, although it doesnt say what the minimum is and is lacking a few extra features.
The celeron will always run at 1.6ghz as opposed to the atom branded chip being 1.33 and then occasionally overclocking itself to 1.86
---------- Post added at 11:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 PM ----------
e.mote said:
>which are exactly the opposite in reality
I'm sure the fanboy's version of reality is indeed different.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its not like you ever substantiate or provide any evidence to your claims that "everyone hates modern", "no one can use desktop in 8 or modern on desktops" or whatever other claims you have made at some point. He has a point
>It isn't likely why the Bay Trail T is 32 bit only because Bay Trail T isn't 32 bit only
Yes, the Silvermont architecture is 64-bit, which is why it can support 64-bit Win in the M line. As abundantly said, that the T line is 32-bit-(OS)-only is because of market positioning, not a technical deficiency.
>Celeron drops the variable clock speeds [etc]...
Yes, thanks for regurgitating my words back to me. I'm sure it's all worthwhile.
>Its not like you ever substantiate or provide any evidence to your claims that "everyone hates modern", "no one can use desktop in 8 or modern on desktops" or whatever other claims you have made at some point. He has a point
Does anybody ever provide evidence for anything on views espoused herein? Do you? Do you ever stop putting words in other people's mouth, as these above?
You want evidence that "8.1 has no consumer enthusiasm"? Look around in this very forum. See anyone jumping for joy at 8.1's features and improvements? See people lining up to buy 8.1 boxes? You think MS is turning itself upside down, and Ballmer bawling his guts out on stage because he's happy of the great Windows sales?
just out of curiosity is the baytrail atom chipset as powerful as the core 2 duo or duo core laptop cpu from 2007-2009 time frame.
rkoforever90 said:
just out of curiosity is the baytrail atom chipset as powerful as the core 2 duo or duo core laptop cpu from 2007-2009 time frame.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As fast as a low end Penryn chip. For reference my P9700 @2.8ghz scores 2600 on geekbench 3 and the bay trail gets 2900. Note the bench is multicore and 32bit settings. However according to cinebench r11.5 my P9700 has higher single & multi core performance, but only slightly.
Also bay t z3740 gets 3343 in cinebench r10 and my laptop gets 6100, so bay is likely close to low end Penyrn or 1st gen i3.
Sent with Virtue
e.mote said:
>An 1Gz i5 is better than an 1.8 ghz Atom. It is all about the architecture, so you can't compare them like that.
You need to get yourself educated. The above discussion is about the same Silvermont architecture. There is no Core here. The Celeron/Pentium/whatever are brandings applied. A Bay Trail M running at 1.6 or 2GHz is faster than a Bay Trail T at 1.33, period. It is that simple.
>which are exactly the opposite in reality
I'm sure the fanboy's version of reality is indeed different.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
e.mote said:
Both are Bay Trail, but are targeted at different platforms. The T100's Z3740 is designed for tablets,
http://ark.intel.com/products/76759 => celeron
while the Celeron N2910 is for entry notebooks,
http://ark.intel.com/products/76752 => atom
Then you proceed to compare their clock speeds
with higher SDP (4.5W vs 2W), higher clock (1.6GHz vs 1.3GHz), and can run 64-bit Win (all Bay Trail tablets are 32-bit only, until next year).
Even without Turbo, the N2910 is faster since it runs at 20% higher clock. That would be a noticeable difference. But still, we're talking about an Atom here. The downside is higher power use, hence the 2nd batt in the base of your model.
BTW, the US version of your mentioned hybrid is a bit better with a Pentium N3510, which is also a Bay Trail M, but has a base clock of 2GHz.
http://www.shopping.hp.com/en_US/home-office/-/products/Laptops/HP-Pavilion/E4V88AV
http://ark.intel.com/products/76751
BTW, note that these come with Windows 8, not 8.1.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Intel Atom is a different architecture than the rest of the intel family processors.Celeron belongs in the same family as the core processors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celeron
Therefore, your CPU clock comparison between intel atom and celeron is null.
You should probably change your avatar image.
PS:this is more of a technical support forum than anything else. People don't usually end up on XDA developers if they do not have a problem. This is how i found about this forum too: I had a problem. There is no point in saying a technical support forum is a good indicator of how good or bad a software is.
mcosmin222 said:
Intel Atom is a different architecture than the rest of the intel family processors.Celeron belongs in the same family as the core processors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celeron
Therefore, your CPU clock comparison between intel atom and celeron is null.
You should probably change your avatar image.
PS:this is more of a technical support forum than anything else. People don't usually end up on XDA developers if they do not have a problem. This is how i found about this forum too: I had a problem. There is no point in saying a technical support forum is a good indicator of how good or bad a software is.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Current celeron chips it seems intel have simply taken the silvermont core from bay trail and slapped the celeron branding on so they are one and the same now beyond what I have apparently regurgitated at e.mote yet he never actually said.
e.mote said:
>It isn't likely why the Bay Trail T is 32 bit only because Bay Trail T isn't 32 bit only
Yes, the Silvermont architecture is 64-bit, which is why it can support 64-bit Win in the M line. As abundantly said, that the T line is 32-bit-(OS)-only is because of market positioning, not a technical deficiency.
>Celeron drops the variable clock speeds [etc]...
Yes, thanks for regurgitating my words back to me. I'm sure it's all worthwhile.
>Its not like you ever substantiate or provide any evidence to your claims that "everyone hates modern", "no one can use desktop in 8 or modern on desktops" or whatever other claims you have made at some point. He has a point
Does anybody ever provide evidence for anything on views espoused herein? Do you? Do you ever stop putting words in other people's mouth, as these above?
You want evidence that "8.1 has no consumer enthusiasm"? Look around in this very forum. See anyone jumping for joy at 8.1's features and improvements? See people lining up to buy 8.1 boxes? You think MS is turning itself upside down, and Ballmer bawling his guts out on stage because he's happy of the great Windows sales?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Want to ignore intels own documents showing that BayTrail T is 64 bit? want to ignore people on this very forum booting 64 bit OSes on Bay Trail T? want to continue stating its 32 bit when it isn't? Fine by me, perhaps you profile picture is rather accurate. And before you claim I am putting words in peoples mouth with this post, its a direct unedited quote although you do seem incapable of ever using the quote button.
Windows sales at this point in time are actually showing a similar market share to when windows 7 was released. Desktop/Laptop PC sales have fallen as a whole according to many analysts as tablet sales gain ground with consumers.
This forum cannot be used as evidence. The forum is technical support. In general you find that most of the people who are happy with a product do not come here to give it praises, they just carry on using it as they do. People come here when they have an issue. Of course people arent going to be jumping for joy when they have come here to ask how to do something (which 99% of the time isnt even a windows 8 exclusive issue).
The new atoms are silver mount tho arnt they as they are bay trail chips
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Celeron-N2910-Notebook-Processor.101602.0.html
Sent from my C6903 using xda app-developers app
>The new atoms are silver mount tho arnt they as they are bay trail chips
Yes, they are. Please ignore the noise. OK, you can ask for your money back!
BTW thanks to the hoi polloi for setting Mcosmin gal straight on the Cel thing. I would add something, but I don't wanna be accused of piling on the handicapped.
>This forum cannot be used as evidence. The forum is technical support.
Such an emphatic statement! But sadly, wrong. This forum is NOT tech support. Do read the header. It's a general discussion area for Win8. People help out because they want to, not because it's their designated task. People come here to jaw about Win8, as we are doing. Evidence? We love evidence! You have some for us, yes?
>Windows sales at this point in time are actually showing a similar market share to when windows 7 was released.
Oh, really! I'm sure that'd be news to many, especially to MS. Since you're so fond of "evidence," where is it? Please, do tell! Love to see which version of reality you reside in.
Then again, facts aren't something you're used to, so let me help ya out. From the horse's mouth:
http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/...year-more-than-240-million-licenses-sold.aspx
"As of September [2010], Windows 7 was running on 93% of new consumer PCs and has over 17% global OS market share (according to Net Applications as of October 1st)"
Per Net Applications, at end of Oct 2010, one year after its release, Win7's market share was 18.9%.
http://www.netmarketshare.com/repor...+7&qpcustomb=0&qpsp=2009&qpnp=2&qptimeframe=Y
Meanwhile,
http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/...ling-first-time-windows-8-1-takes-1-72-share/
"The latest market share data from Net Applications shows that October 2013 was a slow one for Windows 8 and Windows 8.1 combined...[at] 9.25 percent."
Yes, 18.9% is indeedy VERY SIMILAR to 9.25%. Gotta love the new math they teach in schools nowaday. (Yes we're assuming the little fella did see the inside of a school at some point...OK it's a possibility.)
Hey wanna see something to warm your cockles?
http://www.netmarketshare.com/opera...11&qpcustomb=0&qpsp=165&qpnp=13&qptimeframe=M
Going great guns is Win 8.x! Gosh at this torrid pace it might even get to 10% by next century!
>In general you find that most of the people who are happy with a product do not come here to give it praises, they just carry on using it as they do.
Uh oh, more generalizations with NO EVIDENCE. What would Mcosmin lass say!
Yes yes I know them well...the unsung "silent majority" toiling away in the shadow of your imagination. If only they would RISE UP AND BE COUNTED, the world would be a happier place. I'm sure they will do it tomorrow.
Census count! ARE YE A HAPPY WIN8 USER? If yes, go buy smore Win toys and help Ballmer keep his job!
So, what's next on the fanboy scapegoating list? Should we blame the marketing, or do we go after the biased MSM peeps? Heck I'm kinda partial to the breakdancing Catholic school tots. They got tudes. OK it's the bloggers' fault.
Related
With all the talk of Intel breaking into the smartphone market
I ask, between AMD and Intel who would you want in your phone our tablet and why?
My answer its AMD, their apu's I find to be very impressive vs the atom or laptop core I series. Id love to have a Radeon HD 6400 series gpu to play my Android games on =)
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk
Amd the apu is great i hope the put it in tablets an does android support those kinds of cpu's
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
Jasonhunterx said:
Amd the apu is great i hope the put it in tablets an does android support those kinds of cpu's
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its going to yes =) and unofficially does already
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk
Hands down amd. Basicly intel makes a hell of a cpu but graphics not so much. Amd is not to far behind intel. But imho they make the best graphic cards and have the best technology in the gpu. So if they decided to make tablet and phones cpu and gpu i think they will have be very good and being that its phone and tablet maybe some of there gpu tech can be used in the cpu since the cpu for phones and tablets work a bit different than a desktop cpu or laptop cpu for that matter. Sorry for the caps im at work i have to use caps all day
AMD is the best, all day, everyday
i'll stick with Samsung CPUs
they are the best right now in the phone market
AllGamer said:
i'll stick with Samsung CPUs
they are the best right now in the phone market
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree, buy if these guys got in the game is the question =)
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk
hotadef said:
Hands down amd. Basicly intel makes a hell of a cpu but graphics not so much. Amd is not to far behind intel. But imho they make the best graphic cards and have the best technology in the gpu. So if they decided to make tablet and phones cpu and gpu i think they will have be very good and being that its phone and tablet maybe some of there gpu tech can be used in the cpu since the cpu for phones and tablets work a bit different than a desktop cpu or laptop cpu for that matter. Sorry for the caps im at work i have to use caps all day
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree there, but with AMD llano and later bulldozer based APU, any processor gap between Intel and AMD will be gone. These two companies entering the mobile arena will make competition skyrocket, and that only means good things for us consumers =) they would push the drive for faster graphics and processors even quicker than it already its moving
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk
Nvidia. Thanks.
Lmao Nvidia sucks google made a mistake using nvidia for honeycomb exynos an omap smokes tegra
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
Samsung, Nvidia, Intel, then AMD
Remember people you get what you pay for and AMD is CHEAP, and no I'm not impressed with their GPUs either
AMD is not cheap. They have graphics processors at all price points offering more bang for buck than the equivalent Nvidia offering.
Amd is cheap, well slower than intel
also keep in mind that AMD is bringing around their first major Arch revision since 2004, and also keep in mind that for a while AMD smoked intel with Athlon and Athlon XP aswell as with Athlon64, intel didnt regain lead till the core series. AMD GPU on the other hand are consistently offering more for your Dollar than NVIDIA, I have a Radeon HD4870 1gb and can still max out ALL my games short of DX11 specific features (tesselation, etc.) Intel processors since the beginning of the core series have been great, but their GPU leave alot to be desired. Until I can play Borderlands on an intel APU with a better framerate than an AMD APU I'm gonna go with AMD. If you can really name a single desktop application or game where there is a big enough difference between AMD and Intel (desktop as in common user applications) then you will get my kudos. Also your going to want to be looking into AMD and Intels new archs like bulldozer and ivy bridge. Bulldozer will be out in just over a week and we'll see what AMD has up there sleeve with their first major arch change in forever =] (and now that they will have all the instruction sets intel has also =D)
EDIT: and by difference I mean more than 10-15sec or more than 10-15FPS
I'd like to see a Cyrix chip in my next phone please...
intel.
anyone ran an ati/amd gpu on linux? yeah... as bad as or worse than samsung on driver support.
ECOTOX said:
AMD GPU on the other hand are consistently offering more for your Dollar than NVIDIA, I have a Radeon HD4870 1gb and can still max out ALL my games short of DX11 specific features (tesselation, etc.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
really? my 5770 couldn't even consistently pull 30fps in css (which is, what, 7 years old now?) on high settings. and when i added a second 5770 in crossfire and play css i'm guaranteed a bsod within a minute (which is funny cause i hadn't seen a bsod for years before getting an ati card).
funeralthirst said:
intel.
anyone ran an ati/amd gpu on linux? yeah... as bad as or worse than samsung on driver support.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do actually =P havent had any problems, and actually had more problems getting my friends Nvidia working in linux =/ My build runs great and I can OC to 3.5ghz on my phenom II 920 2.8ghz(i got one when they first came out =D, and could go higher if i didnt skimp out on the MB and only spend 90$ on one =3)
PS, this isnt a desktop/laptop question, think of TABs / Phones when making an answer =]
ECOTOX said:
I do actually =P havent had any problems, and actually had more problems getting my friends Nvidia working in linux =/ My build runs great and I can OC to 3.5ghz on my phenom II 920 2.8ghz(i got one when they first came out =D, and could go higher if i didnt skimp out on the MB and only spend 90$ on one =3)
PS, this isnt a desktop/laptop question, think of TABs / Phones when making an answer =]
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
consider yourself lucky. i've never, ever had a problem with nvidia in linux. with ati, i tried fedora, opensuse, mandriva, and ubuntu. ubuntu would work in 9.10 but only the stock kernel (from the live cd), any kernel update would kill everything. finally i was able to get 10.10 installed, and 11.04 hasn't given me any problems. but i still can't run any other distro.
and sure, this isn't about desktops or laptops, but android is linux and if their driver support sucks in linux, i expect it to suck in android as well.
Ati/Amd gpu's are the best point blank nothing to it there should be no argument :-/
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
funeralthirst said:
intel.
anyone ran an ati/amd gpu on linux? yeah... as bad as or worse than samsung on driver support.
really? my 5770 couldn't even consistently pull 30fps in css (which is, what, 7 years old now?) on high settings. and when i added a second 5770 in crossfire and play css i'm guaranteed a bsod within a minute (which is funny cause i hadn't seen a bsod for years before getting an ati card).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
funeralthirst said:
consider yourself lucky. i've never ever had a problem with nvidia in linux. with ati, i tried fedora, opensuse, mandriva, and ubuntu. ubuntu would work in 9.10 but only the stock kernel (from the live cd), any kernel update would kill everything. finally i was able to get 10.10 installed, and 11.04 hasn't given me any problems. but i still can't run any other distro.
and sure, this isn't about desktops or laptops, but android is linux and if their driver support sucks in linux, i expect it to suck in android as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah but dont you think if they did enter that market they would provide the needed support for the android based devices? I havent had any problems for years with AMD GPUs and linux, and Every driver update I just install and go no matter kernel or distro I have used (I mostly use Ubuntu though). I guess it really is based on experience =P I see it this way though, as of right now you can max out Left4Dead 2 on an AMD APU, you get maybe 13fps on an Intel. The laptop market is where we can best compare, and Idk about you but if I'm getting a Tab or phone I'm not looking for something to crunch data (which we all know intel does better), I want a rich and smooth UI, games that look amazing, and light weight and low power consumption (IMO both companies are doing ALOT better with TDP but still have a ways to go)
I know it's a little too early for this thread but it's going to be an interesting topics which will be debated endlessly in the next couple months. Lets face it, CES did little to convince us either options will be superior.
Background information:
Windows 8 seems to be designed for not only tablets in mind, but how the OS is intended to be used. In order to make this possible Mircosoft is designing a version of the OS to be used on ARM processors. ARM processors, found in today's tablets and smartphones, are designed for high preformance with low power consumption.
At the same time Intel has invested a lot of money and research to develop the Clover Trial Atom processor. The atom processors are the processors found in yesterdays notebooks but this new design is also intended for low power consumption.
Known Characteristics of Each:
ARM:
HTML 5 apps only
Possibly Metro UI Only
Low heat
Clover Trail:
x86 architecture. Legacy apps will be compatible as well as HTML 5 apps
Lower preformace than sandy bridge processors
Looking at the above list it seems easy to pick the clover trail but the arm processors are likely to offer better battery life.
Heat issues are also a historic known issue on x86 processors, will continue with clover trail? If a tablet requires a fan width becomes an issue.
I will continue to update the characteristic lists as updates come out so everyone can make the best informed decision possible.
-writing this from my iPad 2 which I can't wait to ditch for something in the Windows 8 flavor
Even on a tablet, I hate the win8 look. I just want my win7 desktop on my iPad 2 also.
I don't think W8 will be as innovative as they say. Windows-8 will either be a hit or a big miss.
I see at least one error in your description, however: Windows 8 on ARM will not be limited to only the HTML5+Javascript apps. They've already demonstrated applications compiled for ARM specifically (including MS Office), so it's safe to conclude we'll see both.
Personally, I LOVE the Metro UI. I think it's the most brilliant shift in UI design in the last 30 years.
For me, I'll be going Windows 8 on ARM and tossing my iPad to the side (probably sell it) as soon as it's available. I'll keep my Windows 7 desktop as-is for the sake of x86/x64 applications in a traditional interface, but Windows 8 is where the market's going. In spite of the naysayers, the odds of it failing are very, very small.
Even Windows Vista, which was a fairly awful product at launch, sold very well (not as well as XP or now 7, but still, well over 200 million units), so it's not remotely a stretch to think that Windows 8, which is slim, light and mind numbingly fast, will also sell well.
Intel's Medfield Atom has proven to be a better performer than the ARM A9 core while offering similar/better power consumption on paper. Personally I don't care for either. I'd rather get ULV Ivy Bridge and live with 4-5 hours of batterylife and probably 8-10 with a keyboard dock, if available.
A ULV Broadwell in 2014 will make all of this moot anyway, x86 chips are more powerful and has major productivity software on lock because of it. Intel is now taking heat/power consumption very seriously and Metro apps for the most part are cross platform so it's Intel's to lose, don't forget that.
dont bet against Intel.... their upcoming tri-gate and finfet tech are gonna put them right in the same league as ARM as far as power consumption is concerned..
if I were a betting man, I'd bet that ARM Windows will be a niche player, while x86 windows will continue to be the dominant flavor, even for tablets, because of Intel's ability to bring down power consumption and price.
That, plus the standardization of x86, and ability for users to install legacy apps + mess around with their OS in an easy way will sway the market far in x86's favor...
Windows 8 has one silver lining left, and that's the Office suite. Android still has no good alternative, and Apple as a killer office app, but not THE Office app.
As long as Microsoft has the mouse behave like a finger, with swiping etc.... Then they'll stand a chance. I wouldn't bet on MS though... for the consumer segment, they need strong solid partnerships, and so far they only have Nokia.
coolqf said:
Windows 8 has one silver lining left, and that's the Office suite. Android still has no good alternative, and Apple as a killer office app, but not THE Office app.
As long as Microsoft has the mouse behave like a finger, with swiping etc.... Then they'll stand a chance. I wouldn't bet on MS though... for the consumer segment, they need strong solid partnerships, and so far they only have Nokia.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What are you talking about? They have everyone for Windows 8. Android tablets aren't selling like their phone counterparts, are OEMs are waiting impatiently to jump on board with Windows 8. Windows still has many major productivity software for 3D rendering, design (pick any type), video, etc. Android has ICS's movie make and super gimped up Adobe touch apps. Android tablets are nothing more than giant mobile phones. Windows 8 tablets will be Metro touch apps that equal Android mobile apps plus all the desktop software we professionals use.
x86 is miles ahead of arm. as soon as dev's make arm ports of x86 apps i dont know if i will bother with windows 8 on arm until then
2 questions/thoughts... call it what you will.
1. ARM ver of Win8 will (or not?) be way more closed than current (traditional Windows approach) - sort of like Windows Phone is now. Meaning if you want an app you have to get it of the store (ONLY) not from any website like today with Windows. True or False?
If true... imho this is a very bad news for ARM ver of software.
Let say you live in Europe and you want/need program that is specific for US store only. What will you do in such case? Even iOS (bad, closed system, controlled by BIG, BAD APPLE) is more frindly about this tnah Android or Windows Phone.
2. Is it possible (for current ARM SOC's) to emulate x86 (in order to get older soft to work)? I dont think so.
On the other hand x86 should be more than capable to "pretend" it is ARM device . In such case having x86 W8 onboard means we cen als use ARM software if we want to need to (unless both x86 and ARM W8 will be lock tight - but than why would anyone jump of Win7????).
fact is we have no idea what RT will bring to the table or what the software will or will not be able to do, but if we look at the hardware we see a few notable differences
ARM, ultra low watt consumption (potentially good battery life), High performance BUT less grunt so to speak, cheaper price point
x86, higher power consumption(potentially a shorter battery life compared to ARM), High performance but more bang per buck, more expensive price point.
there is a distinct difference between the two models, a difference which I think will be very important. Most every day folk will not need more than ARM, for everyone else including many business users, x86 is there
Being able to run x86 code is my primary concern, im not talking heavy work, the programs are small and light, but x86 is essential for the time being for it to be flexible.
However provided RT isn't completely tied down like WP is AND is at a reasonable price point, I think it will make great inroads in the Low/Mid range tablet market.
I started looking into tablets after September last fall. I wanted something that would give me the most bang for the buck, or at least the minimum compromise. Things broke out in 3 general sections as mentioned previously: ARM, Atom/AMDCxx and X86/AMD (higher end iCore style).
As Windows 8 goes, there will be no real difference between Atom and X86. The instruction sets are the same. Both will support Metro and Windows Legacy apps.
ARM will only support Metro.
Price seems to break along those lines, but I found an exception.
I expect the ARM versions to run in the neighborhood of $400 and less; the Atom class to be in the $400 to $800; and the full X86 to be $600 and up. Of course equipment will also impact this price.
Probably, the most significant piece of equipment will be the screen. While pricing current machines for ARM and Atom (as well as X86), the 1366x1024 resolution was rare and it is required for a split screen feature of the Metro interface.
In the end, I picked a Dell Duo with a dual core hyperthreading Atom processor because it had the required resolution and the price was down as low as anything I could find. I also got a keyboard, but suffered the weight and short battery life.
Performance has been good in most situations, though tinkering with Unity 3d seems like a bad idea on the Atom with Windows 8 (but it's not a release OS yet). And performance lags a little in Unity 3d game execution, too.
Metro looks good to me so far.
So, for an iPad style consumption usage I think the ARM is probably going to work great. Dual core if you can get it.
For a little heavier usage and legacy aps, you'll want an Atom type systyem. I'd say dual core minimum.
And if you want superior performance with no compromise, as always, expect to put the green on the table.
Something on the subject:
http://www.v3.co.uk/v3-uk/news/2173...V3&utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Twitterfeed
Lurk said:
In the end, I picked a Dell Duo with a dual core hyperthreading Atom processor because it had the required resolution and the price was down as low as anything I could find. I also got a keyboard, but suffered the weight and short battery life.
Performance has been good in most situations, though tinkering with Unity 3d seems like a bad idea on the Atom with Windows 8 (but it's not a release OS yet). And performance lags a little in Unity 3d game execution, too.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How does internet video work for you on Win 8? What Atom is in your Duo?
I couldn't get netflix or hulu working well on an N280.
I am running 8 on an e-350 (Acer w500), and video works great, but the touch screen is poor around the edges like a number of other Windows 7 tablets where they were designed for accuracy in center, instead of across the board.
---------- Post added at 11:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 PM ----------
dazza9075 said:
There is a distinct difference between the two models, a difference which I think will be very important. Most every day folk will not need more than ARM, for everyone else including many business users, x86 is there.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I actually expect a number of our business users on RT. We won't push them to it, but the option will probably be given.
Today they use:
Web based tools.
A few silverlight sites.
Office
We're likely to port our silverlight apps to METRO, first one took a little under a day. At that point, if they wanted an iPad like device, with the new news about sideloading: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/windowsstor...deploying-metro-style-apps-to-businesses.aspx
It is a pretty good fit.
Obviously designers, ops, etc are not going to find RT sufficient, but I expect a subset will. We have some that only use iPads today anyway.
michiganenginerd said:
How does internet video work for you on Win 8? What Atom is in your Duo?
I couldn't get netflix or hulu working well on an N280.
I am running 8 on an e-350 (Acer w500), and video works great, but the touch screen is poor around the edges like a number of other Windows 7 tablets where they were designed for accuracy in center, instead of across the board.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same question.
I had Asus 1201N (but it had dual core Atom 330 onboard + Nvidia ION card) - no problems with any video but it was HOT, VERY HOT and very noisy.
I kept Samsung NC10 (same atom chip as in 1201N but single core only and no ION). Watching any video on it is a nightmare :-(. Even YT is not working well.
How does internet video work for you on Win 8?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Internet video seems to be very good. Currently, things run fairly smoothly. The connection speed is a bigger impact than the processor speed.
Odd item. I just tested real quick and I can now play YouTube videos in the Metro browser. I guess they have the HTML 5 delivery working.
HD on Netflix is a little choppy right now and stutters in the desktop browser. It could be the connection.
What Atom is in your Duo?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
N570 @1.67ghz
I couldn't get netflix or hulu working well on an N280
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I worried about performkance. That's why I went for a dual core at a minimum. The earlier Duo had an N560(?) at 1.5ghz. I don't think it would be enough. Again, it might be the connection, but @ HD right now, it's borderline.
Of course. sometimes it comes down to the video card/processor, too.
I am running 8 on an e-350 (Acer w500), and video works great, but the touch screen is poor around the edges like a number of other Windows 7 tablets where they were designed for accuracy in center, instead of across the board.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I haven't experienced any issues around the edges ... or any where on the screen. I am pleased overall with the unit and was a bit disappointed when they stopped producing them in December. But, it was largely a test unit.
Thanks for the info Lurk.
Clover Trail pics
I found this article while browsing on tabletpcreview forum.
An online writer Padmx Max, got access to Clover Trails and took some pics of the board and the processor: here is the link
http://www.padmx.com/portal.php?mod=view&aid=1707
The processor is actually stacked under the memory so you can't really see it.
But it is an interesting idea.
Not sure it is Intel Z2580 or z2760 tho.
1. Are the only Windows 8 tablets without a fan equipped with Intel Atom Z2760 CPU?
2. What would you suggest when I would want a Windows 8 tablet without a fan?
Sent from my LG-P990 using xda app-developers app
Given that x86-capable processors run pretty hot, you're not going to find a lot of options. Some of the Atom chips may get by on passive cooling... maybe. Frankly, if you want a fan-less tablet, that usually means ARM, and that means Windows RT.
Of course, what with the latest hacks, the line between Win8 and Win RT is getting thinner than ever...
1. All Atom tablets are fanless as far as I know. My Samsung 500T barely even got warm and I think that was more the LCD than the processor. I don't believe there are any other x86 processors that are fanless right now.
2. Obvious an Atom tablet. You'll probably need to narrow it down a bit on what you are looking for. Is the tablet form factor more important or the laptop form factor. If using it as a tablet is more important, you'll probably want a lighter and smaller 10.1 inch tablet like the upcoming ASUS Vivotab Smart. If you want a laptop form factor with keyboard for typing, then a 11.6 inch tablet is idea for the larger keyboard size. Also do you need a pen built in, do you need a Wacom digitizer?
---------- Post added at 08:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:32 AM ----------
GoodDayToDie said:
Of course, what with the latest hacks, the line between Win8 and Win RT is getting thinner than ever...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not that thin at all. Windows RT tablets will never be able to run x86 desktop applications with it's ARM processor. That hack just lets you run unsigned Windows RT ARM applications.
---------- Post added at 08:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 AM ----------
PS. Maybe AMD's Temash APU might be fanless. Not entirely sure yet. It's shipping Q2 this year, but don't know when we'll see any tablets with it inside.
@Ravynmagi: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2095934 Ever heard of emulation? The speed sucks - you won't be playing high-end recent games, and running something like Photoshop would be painful (as much due to the tablet's low specs as due to the emulation, in that case) but we can *already* run (a few) x86 apps on Windows RT, and adding support for more is mostly a matter of making sure the system calls are supported.
GoodDayToDie said:
@Ravynmagi: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2095934 Ever heard of emulation? The speed sucks - you won't be playing high-end recent games, and running something like Photoshop would be painful (as much due to the tablet's low specs as due to the emulation, in that case) but we can *already* run (a few) x86 apps on Windows RT, and adding support for more is mostly a matter of making sure the system calls are supported.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
An alpha tool made 4 days ago that can run notepad.exe and a 14 year old 2D game on an ARM processor. How could I have missed that?
Can you even install Photoshop, much less run it with this alpha tool yet? You can barely run Photoshop on an Atom, I think running it on an ARM through emulation will be more than painful.
I think it's a bit premature to be touting this as a solution to running x86 apps on an ARM tablet.
I view it quite differently: in any four days, an alpha tools has been written that can run simple apps, even old games, without recompiling them... and has already dramatically improved in performance.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you're going to be completely be able to replace an x86 machine with an ARM one... but the reason for that is simply a matter of performance of the underlying hardware. For low-demand stuff (the kind of thing you might run on a fanless tablet anyhow) it's not an unreasonable goal. Of course it's not there yet... but a week ago, it wasn't possible at all.
Thanks for all the replies so far.
But what do you think, will Windows RT ever be like Windows 8 on x86? What I mean is that will it run Flash, Java and be like a desktop that is also a tablet?
Wrong post.
kaspar737 said:
Thanks for all the replies so far.
But what do you think, will Windows RT ever be like Windows 8 on x86? What I mean is that will it run Flash, Java and be like a desktop that is also a tablet?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My opinion. I'm not sure what kind of future RT has. Why buy a Windows RT with ARM, when you can now get Windows 8 with Atom for just as cheaply ($500) that can do a lot more? Samsung and other manufactures have already abandoned their Windows RT plans, they don't see a future in it either.
By the way, Windows RT is able to run Flash if it's in Microsoft's white list of websites.
Ravynmagi said:
My opinion. I'm not sure what kind of future RT has. Why buy a Windows RT with ARM, when you can now get Windows 8 with Atom for just as cheaply ($500) that can do a lot more? Samsung and other manufactures have already abandoned their Windows RT plans, they don't see a future in it either.
By the way, Windows RT is able to run Flash if it's in Microsoft's white list of websites.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, I'm afraid that app developers don't see a point developing apps for Windows RT. Also, RT tablets just seem to be too locked down. To me it seems that x86 tablets are like Android tablets- the experience you get is not determined by the OS maker but RT tablets are like the iPad- you can mostly do what the OS maker likes/approves.
Sent from my LG-P990 using xda app-developers app
kaspar737 said:
Yeah, I'm afraid that app developers don't see a point developing apps for Windows RT. Also, RT tablets just seem to be too locked down. To me it seems that x86 tablets are like Android tablets- the experience you get is not determined by the OS maker but RT tablets are like the iPad- you can mostly do what the OS maker likes/approves.
Sent from my LG-P990 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Windows RT apps run on Windows 8 too and Windows 8 will be shipped on millions and millions of computers around the world. So I think the Windows Store apps (aka Metro style) that run on RT and 8 will eventually show up in good numbers from developers. So if you do go with Windows RT, the apps will come, even if people abandon the OS and hardware platform.
Windows 8 has the best of both worlds though, you can run the RT apps and the x86 apps. And the Atom is the best of both worlds, the efficiency of an ARM processor with the ability to run x86 apps.
Atom is hardly the efficiency of ARM... it's just the first x86 processor to get within the same order of magnitude. They still need bigger batteries and/or suffer lower battery life. Mind you, they're closer than I thought x86 (which is an inherently inefficient design in some ways, due to the extreme complexity of the instruction decoder required) would get.
GoodDayToDie said:
Atom is hardly the efficiency of ARM... it's just the first x86 processor to get within the same order of magnitude. They still need bigger batteries and/or suffer lower battery life. Mind you, they're closer than I thought x86 (which is an inherently inefficient design in some ways, due to the extreme complexity of the instruction decoder required) would get.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6536/arm-vs-x86-the-real-showdown
"Whereas I didn't really have anything new to conclude in the original article (Atom Z2760 is faster and more power efficient than Tegra 3), there's a lot to talk about here. We already know that Atom is faster than Krait, but from a power standpoint the two SoCs are extremely competitive. At the platform level Intel (at least in the Acer W510) generally leads in power efficiency."
Ravynmagi said:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6536/arm-vs-x86-the-real-showdown
"Whereas I didn't really have anything new to conclude in the original article (Atom Z2760 is faster and more power efficient than Tegra 3), there's a lot to talk about here. We already know that Atom is faster than Krait, but from a power standpoint the two SoCs are extremely competitive. At the platform level Intel (at least in the Acer W510) generally leads in power efficiency."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You could just link to the article
And, yes, the Atom Z2760 is more power efficient.
As far as tablets go, though, all the Atom tablets I've looked at have felt like cheap toys, whereas the Surface is possibly the best built device I've ever used. That's the main reason I chose the Surface RT, it just blows all the competition away in build quality.
As far as applications go, neither the Atom nor the Tegra are very well suited for intensive tasks like Photoshop and the like. They're both going to perform quite poorly at those tasks.
The Atom does have the existing software library, though in reality a large number of what people will need/want to use has already been ported over to Arm.
An interesting thing to note is that even though the Atom is more efficient than the Tegra the Surface still had better battery life compared to the W510 by almost an hour.
Build Quality: Surface beats W510 hands down. Acer has okay build quality, but the Surface is superb.
Performance: The Atom nudges out the Tegra
Applications: Any applications that need x86 won't be usable on the Atom, but they will run, so the Atom wins. The Tegra is rapidly catching up, though.
Battery Life: The Surface beat the W510 by nearly an hour, therefore I'm calling it in favor of the Surface. The Atom itself is more efficient, but that doesn't mean that the tablets built using the Atom are.
I stand corrected. Atom, even an older Atom, is surprisingly competitive with ARM on a power efficiency standpoint. I don't know that I agree with handing it the win outright, it won some of the "total usage" charts but lost some of the others, occasionally substantially. It's certainly a viable option for a mobile device though. Interesting... time was, Intel had difficulty squeezing their chips down to 5W, while ARM was expected to run at around 300mW. Apparently I need to keep a better eye on these things.
Below is the Acer W3 tablet that had an Amazon listing for USD$380 before it was pulled. Acer Finland now has posted the specs & pics: 8.1" display (reportedly 1280x800), Clover Trail Z2760, 2GB RAM, 64GB flash, micro-USB/SD/HDMI, 8hr (3.5Ah) battery.
http://www.acer.fi/ac/fi/FI/content/model/NT.L1JED.002
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
This isn't a "real" launch, but a dry run for the Bay Trail models in Q4. The first giveaway is the $380 price (sans dock), which is even more than the iPad Mini, and is a guaranteed retail DOA. The second is that it doesn't have 8.1 update, and its 1280 res has this footnote at the bottom of the page: "The integrated display resolution of this system is below the threshold for snapping apps...This feature may be enabled by attaching an external display which supports a screen resolution of 1366 x 768 or higher."
Still we can glean some features from this as indicators of the upcoming Win8.1 "small tablet" crop. This particular tab has 16:10 aspect, which is a departure from the default 16:9 on all Win tabs (and most laptops/monitors) to date. IMO it's a big improvement, as it allows the devices to be more functional in portrait, and less awkward to hold in one hand.
Speaking of portrait, note that this tab is designed to be used in portrait mode by placement of the front cam and the Windows button. Another positive step.
Power efficiency looks good. The 3.5Ah batt is smaller than the typical 7" Android's 4Ah, and Mini's 4.49Ah, yet can still claim to 8hr usage. Hopefully Bay Trail can maintain this efficiency while boosting performance.
Office Home & Student 2013 is bundled. This corroborates an earlier rumor of lowered licensing cost for the Win+Office bundle for x86. The flip side is that this kills RT's main sales pitch. I don't expect any new RT product for this gen, except perhaps a refresh for Surface RT.
As with RT, I'm doubtful of the appeal of Office on mobile devices, since this version is still mainly for desktop and not touch. Functionality will be substantially reduced on a 8" display, and pretty useless w/o an external keyboard (as how most of these 8" tabs will be sold). Given MS' emphasis on services, I'm also surprised that it didn't instead bundle Office 365 with, say, 2-yr free sub. That would give O365 adoption a big jump-start.
Which brings us to the oversized dock. Its size means that "productivity" is limited to home use, as you won't be carrying this around with you. This highlights the perplexity of Windows-on-tablet: As of now, Windows is still very much a desktop, keyboard/mouse-driven OS, the nascent Metro makeover notwithstanding. The "desktop" is why people buy x86 over RT, but it was never designed for small mobile devices, and is an awkward fit at best.
Last, comes price. From this and Asus CEO's comments, my SWAG is low-300-ish for these 8" x86 tabs, and the dock will be $75-100 extra. I don't think they'll fare well against the $200-and-under Androids, many of which will be from the same vendors who make Win tabs. In other words, 3rd-party marketing support will be wanting.
I am really excited about this, and i think certain OEMs will prefer the windows echosystem in tablets over android as they already know it and have a very respected position and value unlike android (Acer, Lenovo, Dell, HP, MSI . . ) Win8 is there chance to enter the Mobile market, may be ASUS is the only vendor that can compete in the Android ecosystem but not for so long i think
- I think Acer will re-adjust the price and even at 380$ i think its a better value than the iPad or the Note 8 because you get much more flexibility, in this form factor you can think of the desktop mode as a complement to metro, whatever is lacking in metro you can use desktop mode for it but metro will be where you spend most of your time (web, video, chat . . .)
- The snap mode issue i think will be fixed with 8.1, right now i believe there is a hack to enable it
- This is definitely better than RT in every way, I think RT main purpose is to keep the possibilities on the ARM architecture open in the future and i think that Microsoft should really be merging windows phone and windows RT together in the coming years
- A sub 200 android tablet will be no where near the performance or the flexibility of a x86 tablet even RT tablets Have better SOCs already and will be priced very closely
I really think if Microsoft can pull the right price model + some UI tweaks in desktop they will own the tablet space in less than 2 years
Yes, $380 is early adopter pricing. Asus CEO has said 8" Bay Trail will be around $300, although the more conservative would peg it at low-$300. Either way, price will be bumped to ~$400 w/ keyboard dock, which is needed for "full" Windows rather than just Metro.
This and other Taiwan models should show up at Computex on June 4. We should also see the new 8" Surface at Build on June 26. I think Acer's oversized-keyboard solution is awkward and not portable, and am looking forward to see what Asus/Lenovo and MS have to offer. Some sort of fold-out keyboard cover would be a better option, although it still isn't as optimal as the clamshell form factor.
IMO the best solution is for MS to adjust the desktop UI to better accomodate touch, similar to what was done for Office 2013 UI. Per 8.1, that won't happen (although display scaling should be fixed). Hence the UX for naked tabs will be limited to Metro, which at this point is still primitive and nascent. I see this as another transition rev, and am already looking to Win9 for more substantive improvements.
With the Surface 8", we'll also get guidance on whether the Surface line is a serious foray, or as "reference" models for vendors to follow. Ballmer has said Surface is a "real business," so I'd expect aggressive pricing & wide distribution to compete with iPads, as opposed to the present overpriced RT & Pro models that doomed them to irrelevance. The flip side is that a lowballed Surface will further antagonize OEMs, and cooperation will worsen. Exacerbating factors include the continuing commoditization of tablets, where even iPads are under pressure from Android. MS & Co will have to play ball with near-zero margin hardware, which means a big thumbs-up for consumers.
On the positive news (for MS), the long tail of Win7 along with MS' other rev streams will afford it a few more profitable quarters, regardless of the reception to the 8.1 crop. MS will get at least one more mulligan before the gravy train pops a gasket.
That's the beauty of windows 8, Vendors focus on the hardware and different form factors while Microsoft is focusing on the software, But then again the early adoption is very important in the mobile market, Imagine Microsoft started with WP7.5 instead of WP7 i know it would have been very different now, I hope they don't do the same mistake with windows 8
I really like the way Acer is going, New ideas and brilliant hardware (A full sized, non touch keyboard is a must for productivity)
>A full sized, non touch keyboard is a must for productivity
That's the crux, isn't it? Productivity on a smaller form factor.
The elephant in the room is that the keyboard as presently constituted can't be downsized, and it has defeated every attempt to shrink productive mobile computing beyond 10" size. The QWERTY/AZERTY layout (and sizing) has been with us since time immemorial, and there's been no real attempt to innovate it directly because of the high learning curve involved. Instead, present efforts at progress all work around it, eg touch screen, voice rec, gestures, etc. But none has the granularity, simplicity, and versatility of a tactile keyboard. That's why productivity is predicated upon it.
The present mobile computing paradigm has yet to come up with a solution to reconcile productivity with mobile. MS in its chase toward mobile has no real answers, either. Its attempt to push hybrids (read: mobile w/ keyboard) has gotten no traction. Neither have its Surface devices, based on a "flattened" keyboard that doubles as cover. The success or failure of Metro is actually irrelevant, because even if Metro succeeds as a touch UI, it still can't solve the productivity conundrum to make "desktop mode" disappear. And if Metro can't become a superset of "desktop," then we'll be stuck with a franken-OS for quite a while longer.
Somebody (probably not MS) need to innovate the keyboard.
The QWERTY/AZERTY layout (and sizing) has been with us since time immemorial, and there's been no real attempt to innovate it directly because of the high learning curve involved. Instead, present efforts at progress all work around it, eg touch screen, voice rec, gestures, etc. But none has the granularity, simplicity, and versatility of a tactile keyboard. That's why productivity is predicated upon it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with you on the innovation side, I think that if there is enough demand for it you will find all kinds of ideas coming along but sadly demand has to come first
The success or failure of Metro is actually irrelevant, because even if Metro succeeds as a touch UI, it still can't solve the productivity conundrum to make "desktop mode" disappear. And if Metro can't become a superset of "desktop," then we'll be stuck with a franken-OS for quite a while longer
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Metro isn't the start screen or the apps that runs in it, it is the design philosophy that focuses on content (fonts, icons, typography . . .), apply that to desktop and you get a metro desktop, hopefully microsoft is focusing on that
Desktop is what differentiate windows from any mobile os, it shouldn't be killed (taking away decades of apps) but should be more metro and more touch friendly with full multi touch/gesture/pen/voice support if microsoft can do that then i don't see any reason for going to any other mobile os
I have a samsung ativ smart and i use it almost 99% of the time instead of my pc, that couldn't have been possible without win 8 and i hope it keeps getting better
AMD Temash is looking very good in terms of power consumption...
The A4-1200 tops at 3.9W TDP... in other words, iPad form factor territory :good:
go0gle said:
AMD Temash is looking very good in terms of power consumption...
The A4-1200 tops at 3.9W TDP... in other words, iPad form factor territory :good:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
GPU wise its way better than clover trail but in RAW CPU power its lacking, Bay trail is not far off so we have to wait and see
Acer is really is really innovating this year
DynamicRam said:
GPU wise its way better than clover trail but in RAW CPU power its lacking, Bay trail is not far off so we have to wait and see
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Even the quad core version ? That is a bit disappointing considering that clover trail is really old..
I think the AMDs also support more/faster RAM than clover trail.. the quad core paired with 6gb RAM should be fine.
Silvermont is at least 6 month away as far as I know.
The quad core will definitely be better but i don't think it will match the clover trail 10+ hours of battery life
Remember that clover trail has a TDP around 1.7
And a clock speed of 1.8ghz whereas the amd chips are 1.0 or 1.4. However 1 clock signal does not result in 1 processor cycle and different cpu instructions take a differing number of cycles to complete so who knows how they really compare (as I doubt the clocks>cycles>instructions relationship is the same for clovertrail and amd, hell, clovertrail and bay trail aren't even the same in that regard).
Re: AMD - Specs notwithstanding, it'll be tough for AMD to get design wins. Intel has always been ahead on power efficiency, and it's now closing the gap between Atom and Core where AMD is trying to target. Bay Trail is getting more (50%+) perf, and Haswell more battery life. Intel is also dropping price to compete against ARM, with $300'ish ASP for Bay Trail vs $500 for Clover.
The larger question is how well x86 tabs can sell, since Win8x still requires keyboard/mouse, and a keyboard dock will add to the price and bulk. The lower overall pricing should help, but the competition isn't standing still. There'll be iOS7 iPads, and Walmart is selling $99 7" Androids now.
I'm not a fan of the Acer W3 setup, ie with oversized keyboard dock. Aside from being fugly, it defeats the purpose of having a smaller tablet, and you might as well buy a 10". Credit to Acer for trying new things, but all of its weird designs have never caught on with the public. Anyway, this issue has already been solved a couple of decades ago, with the foldable PDA keyboard.
After the keyboard, you need a *precise* pointer (read: not your finger). The FlipStart UMPC below had both a track pointer and a mini-trackpad. These aren't as functional as a mouse, but they should suffice along with touch screen input.
Next up, what makes a Win device useful, aside from keyboard/mouse, are its USB ports and it-just-works USB connectivity. The Acer W3 and most mini-tabs will likely have only a single micro-USB port, which isn't enough. I'd like to see a battery-powered USB 3.0 hub w/ 3-4 ports.
Lastly, I want to see Microsoft take the lead in standardizing connector/form factor specs for these separate accessories so 3rd-party products can interoperate. This will help build a thriving ecosystem and drive down prices for accessories. But realistically, I expect MS to continue its Apple-wannabe ways with its own proprietary toys and ludicrous prices. It's why I'm looking beyond MS for my next transition. The world doesn't need another Apple.
BTW, looks like the first shoe on "software as services" has dropped on XB1, and we can kiss selling used games goodbye. MS: 1, gamer: 0.
I doubt we will see standardisation.
Hell, Asus skipped a beat in my opinion for not reusing the transformer docking connector (width of keyboard wouldn't have lined up but it would have maintained compatibility with their standalone dock, ethernet and usb adaptors).
I think the keyboards and trackpads for convertibles are currently HID devices on an i2c bus though, so if not compatible with the physical connector they may at least be electrically compatible if provided the correct adaptor cable. With i2c several devices can even daisy chain although a keyboard, mouse and accelerometer might already be occupying a fair portion of bandwidth, doubt you could double up on that.
No need to jerryrig connectors. Theoretically you can hang all your periphs off the micro-USB port w/ powered hub. It'll look a bit ghetto with the cables vs a snap-in dock, but you don't have to buy a separate (proprietary) dock for each toy. That, or go the BT route, but this last excludes high-bandwidth uses like with a HDD.
Bifold keyboards have sadly gone the way of the PDA, and battery-powered hubs are rare. Tabs are still new, and use cases are still limited to mostly streaming online stuff. Plugging periphs to a tab is still a geek's game. Maybe Win tabs can add new uses to the mix with a "productivity" OS onboard. Here's to hoping that bifold KBs make a comeback, along with them yummy red Thinkpad nipples.
The new Surface 8 (probably a Bay Trail) should come out at Build. I'm hoping MS can at least do a portable, self-powered dock and not just a shrunken keyboard cover. But my optimism for MS is at low ebb, so am expecting exactly the latter.
e.mote said:
The new Surface 8 (probably a Bay Trail) should come out at Build. I'm hoping MS can at least do a portable, self-powered dock and not just a shrunken keyboard cover. But my optimism for MS is at low ebb, so am expecting exactly the latter.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You mean announced at Build.. I thought Silvermont is not shipping until q4/2013 - q1/2015
DynamicRam said:
The quad core will definitely be better but i don't think it will match the clover trail 10+ hours of battery life
Remember that clover trail has a TDP around 1.7
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1.7 .. wow, I did not know that. It explains the amazing battery life those machines get. I wonder if Intel would manage to keep that TDP with BayTrail... it might be hard to do considering the bump in performance.
From Anandtech
Form factors should be no thicker than Clovertrail based designs, although it will be possible to go thinner with Baytrail/Silvermont should an OEM decide to.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In terms of absolute performance, Silvermont’s peak single threaded performance is 2x that of Saltwell. This 2x gain includes IPC and clock frequency gains (only 50% is from IPC, the rest is due to IDI, system agent and frequency). Given that Saltwell is competitive with existing architectures from ARM and Qualcomm (except for the Cortex A15), a 2x increase in single threaded performance should put Silvermont in a leadership position when it arrives later this year.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The next set of bars is just as important. At the same power levels (Intel didn’t disclose specifically at what power), Silvermont delivers 2x the performance of Saltwell. Finally, at the same performance level, Silvermont uses 4.7x lower power. Given that Saltwell wasn’t terrible on power to begin with, this is very impressive. Without knowing the specific power and performance levels however, I wouldn’t draw too many conclusions based on this data though.
The multithreaded advantages are obviously even greater as Silvermont will be featured in quad-core configurations while Saltwell topped out at dual-core (4 threads) in tablets.
In the next two slides, Intel did some competitive analysis with Silvermont vs. the ARM based competition. The benchmarks are the same, but now we have specifics about power usage. In the first test Intel is comparing to three competitors all with quad-core designs. Intel claims to have estimated performance gains based on what is expected to be in the market by the end of this year. Intel’s performance modeling group is very good at what it does, but as with any estimate you always have to exercise some caution in buying the data until we have physical hardware in hand.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The final performance comparison slide increases max core power to 1.5W and compares quad-core Silvermont to the quad-core competition. You’ll note the arrival of a new competitor here. One of the bars is a dual-core SoC with its performance scaled to four cores. I’m less confident about that particular estimation simply because it assumes Apple won’t significantly update architectures in its next generation of iPads.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That’s the end of the Intel data, but I have some thoughts to add. First of all, based on what I’ve seen and heard from third parties working on Baytrail designs - the performance claims of being 2x the speed of Clovertrail are valid. Compared to the two Cortex A15 designs I’ve tested (Exynos 5250, dual-core A15 @ 1.7GHz and Exynos 5410 quad-core A15 @ 1.6GHz), quad-core Silvermont also comes out way ahead. Intel’s claims of a 60% performance advantage, at minimum, compared to the quad-core competition seems spot on based on the numbers I’ve seen. Power is the only area that I can’t validate based on what I’ve seen already (no one has given me a Baytrail tablet to measure power on). Given what we know about Silvermont’s architecture and the gains offered by Intel’s 22nm process, I do expect this core to do better on power than what we’ve seen thus far from ARM’s Cortex A15.
There is something we aren’t taking into account though. As of now, the only Cortex A15 based SoCs that we’ve seen have been very leaky designs optimized for high frequency. Should an SoC vendor choose to optimize for power consumption instead, we could see a narrower gap between the power consumption of Cortex A15 and Silvermont. Obviously you give up performance when you do that, so it may not ultimately change anything - but the power story might be less of a blowout.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Haswell Review: Intel Core i7-4770K & i5-4560K Tested
Intel Iris Pro 5200 Graphics Review: Core i7-4950HQ Tested
Intel launches Haswell processors: here's what you need to know
Below is Engadget's hands-on of the Acer W3 at Computex. Official pricing will apparently be 329 for 32GB (same as iPad Mini) and 379 for 64GB, in both USD and Euro. Keyboard dock is said to be €69, which should also be same in dollars.
The keyboard dock is battery-powered (2xAAs), and has no physical connector with the tab, so apparently it's a BT keyboard. The dock slot looks to accommodate only a single fixed angle. Also, no trackpad or trackpoint.
I'd be very surprised if Acer actually put this model on retail sale.
379$ including Office is not bad at all & you can attach any keyboard/mouse, I hope that they ship with a better display though
---------- Post added at 10:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 AM ----------
ASUS launches VivoMouse, a wireless optical mouse with a multi-touch trackpad
Shockingly, there's a few AMD (x86 compatible) tablets out there in the wild.
Has anyone tried them?
Not really *that* shocking; they have higher power usage to CPU perf than Intel but the gap isn't terrible, and they have better graphics. Gaming-oriented low-power devices are quite likely to use AMD APUs. With that said, while I've seen reviews, I haven't actually tried one myself.
*shocking* because apparently nobody does advertisement for them.
I wonder if their APUs are comparable to an i5 in performance outside games as well...
Any example of an AMD tablet-PC? I don't know any except some prototypes I saw some time ago.
mcosmin222 said:
*shocking* because apparently nobody does advertisement for them.
I wonder if their APUs are comparable to an i5 in performance outside games as well...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They do advertise them, but they arent marketed at the western market. They are more common outside of the US and EU.
I doubt APU performance for CPU tasks is going to be near ivy bridge. GPU tasks it should win out though.