Cant install CWM or TWRP on my Sprint S4 - Sprint Samsung Galaxy S 4 Q&A, Help & Troubleshoot

I was having so strange issues with my S4 after I originally rooted it so after messing with it for a while I decided to just start over from scratch. I used L720VPUAMDC_L720SPTAMDC_SPR and was able to get it loaded up without any problems and the phone runs fine.
Problem: I tried to re-root the phone again but I cant get cwm or twrp installed. I downloaded rom manager just to try to get cwm installed from there but when I looked under the recovery rom section I says that I have both CWM and TWRP installed already when I dont. I can boot into download mode and the stock recovery but I cant seem to get any other recovery to install.
Anyone know something I can do to get one of these recoveries installed?
Thanks

xeonbuilder said:
I was having so strange issues with my S4 after I originally rooted it so after messing with it for a while I decided to just start over from scratch. I used L720VPUAMDC_L720SPTAMDC_SPR and was able to get it loaded up without any problems and the phone runs fine.
Problem: I tried to re-root the phone again but I cant get cwm or twrp installed. I downloaded rom manager just to try to get cwm installed from there but when I looked under the recovery rom section I says that I have both CWM and TWRP installed already when I dont. I can boot into download mode and the stock recovery but I cant seem to get any other recovery to install.
Anyone know something I can do to get one of these recoveries installed?
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Here's odin 3.07 and twrp recovery. Just put your phone in Download mode, put the recovery in the pda section of Odin, and then boot to recovery and you should be good :good:

MHousos said:
Here's odin 3.07 and twrp recovery. Just put your phone in Download mode, put the recovery in the pda section of Odin, and then boot to recovery and you should be good :good:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wanna laugh... I forgot to uncheck "auto reboot" in odin all these times. I unchecked it and got cwm installed.. 1 problem down Now let me find a good rom

You may want to clear data for Rom Manager.
Sent from my SPH-L720 using xda app-developers app

xeonbuilder said:
Wanna laugh... I forgot to uncheck "auto reboot" in odin all these times. I unchecked it and got cwm installed.. 1 problem down Now let me find a good rom
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wanna Cry !... I forgot to uncheck "auto reboot" in odin all these times.
Thank you :good:

Related

Help - Clockworkmod Recovery

I'm trying to flash a custom rom made from romkitchen however have hit a wall. Any help pointing out a solution or where i may have gone wrong would be most appreciated. I'll outline all the steps i took, not sure if they are related to the issue or not.
I started of with froyo dtjp5 with no 3 button and 3e recovery. I started by using odin to flash the canadian bootloader fix which worked perfectly and gave me 3 button download mode. I then flashed chainfire cf-root 1.3 kernell which also worked perfectly and i know have working 2e recovery mode. I then donwloaded clockwork rom manager form the app market, and flashed the clockworkmod recover 2.5.1.2. It appeared to be successful. However when i attempt to enter recovery mode, either through the application, or through 3 button mode it, simply boots into normal 2e recovery mode rather than clockwork mod. I have tried applying the flash again but it still did not work.Untill i can boot into clockworkmod recovery i cant apply my romkitchen zip file so im kind of stuck. I must be missing something but cant figure it out, so once again any held would be much appreciated. Thanks
flash for example voodoo or speedmod kernel with odin/heimdall or kernel flasher(haven't used it often so i am not sure about kernel flasher)
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
Make sure CWM is set as update.zip on your sdcard - ROM Manager should actually do this for you - then in 2e recovery select flash update.zip ... the very first time it should just reboot your device (so go into recovery again), the second time it should start CWM.
Not sure why CWM is built that way.
Thanks very much
Ok so I am having a problem with cwm that i hope someone can help me with. I just flashed the latest speedmod kernel using the sgs kernel flasher app. Now when i try to reboot into recovery from cwm so that i can access the tweaks menu, the cwm options dont appear. It says i am in android sytem recovery(3e). where my only real option besides wiping the phone is to apply sdcard:update.zip, which does not work even though cwm is set as update.zip on my sd card. Any help to this noob would be appreciated.
Cap18k said:
Ok so I am having a problem with cwm that i hope someone can help me with. I just flashed the latest speedmod kernel using the sgs kernel flasher app. Now when i try to reboot into recovery from cwm so that i can access the tweaks menu, the cwm options dont appear. It says i am in android sytem recovery(3e). where my only real option besides wiping the phone is to apply sdcard:update.zip, which does not work even though cwm is set as update.zip on my sd card. Any help to this noob would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
to apply CWM from 3e recovery you need it on your sd card. it has to be named 'update.zip'
the other way to do this, is download odin version, boot into download mode, and flash.
overall process takes less than 5 mins.
Check if you really have it -> settings -> about phone.
And try to flash it using odin, that worked flawlesly for me.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
The kernel definately flashed correctly. I am not sure why the update.zip isnt workingfro cwm (the signature verification keeps failing), but i am going to try odin and see what happens. I've never used it before, but i am downloading it now.

[Q] Booting Problem

Hey Guys,
i have a problem with flashing custom recovery on my I9505(jfltexx).
When i flash "DBT-I9505XXUBMEA-20130601103235" via Odin and in addition the "CF-Auto-Root-jflte-jfltexx-gti9505" my phone boots up, most of the time but not all the time. Now when i try to flash custom Recovery via Odin, my phone stucks at the Samsung Galaxy Logo and it wont continue. Even if i enter the standard recovery from Goomanager and i select "reboot system now" it stucks on the Logo!
Any Help?
Thanks in Advance
Faschoda said:
Hey Guys,
i have a problem with flashing custom recovery on my I9505(jfltexx).
When i flash "DBT-I9505XXUBMEA-20130601103235" via Odin and in addition the "CF-Auto-Root-jflte-jfltexx-gti9505" my phone boots up, most of the time but not all the time. Now when i try to flash custom Recovery via Odin, my phone stucks at the Samsung Galaxy Logo and it wont continue. Even if i enter the standard recovery from Goomanager and i select "reboot system now" it stucks on the Logo!
Any Help?
Thanks in Advance
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
U can try going to Stock or The recovery u installed which ever u are able to open
Just wipe cache & reboot
It should work well if this does not work
Flash a pre rooted firmware
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2255190&highlight=pre+rooted+i9505
And flash PHILZ recovery 100 % there wont be any problem and ya after flashing a firmware do Reset from the device and then flash recovery
123hiten said:
U can try going to Stock or The recovery u installed which ever u are able to open
Just wipe cache & reboot
It should work well if this does not work
Flash a pre rooted firmware
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2255190&highlight=pre+rooted+i9505
And flash PHILZ recovery 100 % there wont be any problem and ya after flashing a firmware do Reset from the device and then flash recovery
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah but thats the problem. I can't enter the recovery mode and when i try to flash a PRE-rooted rom from djembey my device stuck at the BootLogo.
In a nutshell: There is no option performing a wipe!
Faschoda said:
Yeah but thats the problem. I can't enter the recovery mode and when i try to flash a PRE-rooted rom from djembey my device stuck at the BootLogo.
In a nutshell: There is no option performing a wipe!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
do not enter the recovery from and app
to enter a recovery power off device unplug it
press volume up + home + power all together till samsung logo appear and realease it
U will have a stock recovery or the one u installed
from there u will have factory reset and wipe cache bth option
let me know or some images u get would be more easy for us to help you with
123hiten said:
do not enter the recovery from and app
to enter a recovery power off device unplug it
press volume up + home + power all together till samsung logo appear and realease it
U will have a stock recovery or the one u installed
from there u will have factory reset and wipe cache bth option
let me know or some images u get would be more easy for us to help you with
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for your effort. But i have to tell you the whole Story.
Yesterday i wanted to install the PA-Rom from verttigo. Before i was on the OMEGA 6.0 Version with Ktsoonez custom kernel. So i entered the recovery mode, did a backup, Full-Wipe, and then the huge MISTAKE, I formatted data and system and everything was gone. No Backup i could reinstall nor a ROM i could install. Than my phone rebooted and stucked at the samsung Logo. So i thought the F shall i do?!?!
I entered the download Mode and tried to install the prerooted Rom from djembey but i stucked also on the samsung logo. Since than im sitting in front of my Phone crying!
Faschoda said:
Thanks for your effort. But i have to tell you the whole Story.
Yesterday i wanted to install the PA-Rom from verttigo. Before i was on the OMEGA 6.0 Version with Ktsoonez custom kernel. So i entered the recovery mode, did a backup, Full-Wipe, and then the huge MISTAKE, I formatted data and system and everything was gone. No Backup i could reinstall nor a ROM i could install. Than my phone rebooted and stucked at the samsung Logo. So i thought the F shall i do?!?!
I entered the download Mode and tried to install the prerooted Rom from djembey but i stucked also on the samsung logo. Since than im sitting in front of my Phone crying!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok now i get it as per what i see i can still get your device back to normal but myte take multiple try rest assured it will work
1st flash a stock firmware again (not rooted pure stock) this time using pit file along with firmware
and while flashing the firmware using odin and pit do check re-partition also
Note with out pit file do not check the re-partition box
and once the flashing is done device should boot if its not booting
go to stock recovery like how i told u earlier and do factory reset and wipe cache
and reboot
and tell me the status.. all the best
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2265477&highlight=stock+firmware get pit file/ stock firmware from here for ur variant
123hiten said:
Ok now i get it as per what i see i can still get your device back to normal but myte take multiple try rest assured it will work
1st flash a stock firmware again (not rooted pure stock) this time using pit file along with firmware
and while flashing the firmware using odin and pit do check re-partition also
Note with out pit file do not check the re-partition box
and once the flashing is done device should boot if its not booting
go to stock recovery like how i told u earlier and do factory reset and wipe cache
and reboot
and tell me the status.. all the best
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2265477&highlight=stock+firmware get pit file/ stock firmware from here for ur variant
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So let me get this clear. In Odin i should check the stock Rom in PIT instead of PDA? And check the Re-Partion box?
Faschoda said:
So let me get this clear. In Odin i should check the stock Rom in PIT instead of PDA? And check the Re-Partion box?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In Odin
PDA - u should select firmware stock one
PIT - select pit file
Re- partition should be check follow the image and flash
If Re-Partition is checked u must have pit file also do not forget that else u myte brick ur device
Faschoda said:
Thanks for your effort. But i have to tell you the whole Story.
Yesterday i wanted to install the PA-Rom from verttigo. Before i was on the OMEGA 6.0 Version with Ktsoonez custom kernel. So i entered the recovery mode, did a backup, Full-Wipe, and then the huge MISTAKE, I formatted data and system and everything was gone. No Backup i could reinstall nor a ROM i could install. Than my phone rebooted and stucked at the samsung Logo. So i thought the F shall i do?!?!
I entered the download Mode and tried to install the prerooted Rom from djembey but i stucked also on the samsung logo. Since than im sitting in front of my Phone crying!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Based on what you said, it seem like you still have all the partitions intact. Just that they are empty right now.
Did you do a full backup before all this problem happen? Or did you do a custom backup?
Are your backups stored in external memory and is a full backup? If so, try using custom recovery to restore your backup?
123hiten said:
In Odin
PDA - u should select firmware stock one
PIT - select pit file
Re- partition should be check follow the image and flash
If Re-Partition is checked u must have pit file also do not forget that else u myte brick ur device
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lzk123 said:
Based on what you said, it seem like you still have all the partitions intact. Just that they are empty right now.
Did you do a full backup before all this problem happen? Or did you do a custom backup?
Are your backups stored in external memory and is a full backup? If so, try using custom recovery to restore your backup?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's Bull****. Nothing worked -.-
Faschoda said:
That's Bull****. Nothing worked -.-
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Chill. Your phone is definitely not bricked. I encountered your problem before when i was experimenting with something.
- Right now, boot to whatever recovery that you have. Try to wipe cache, dalvik, and any other partition if possible.
- After that, boot to download mode and try to flash STOCK rom using odin. Check that flash was success.
- Try to boot your phone and report here on what happens.
Edit: You might want to consider restarting your computer and changing usb port. "Faulty" Usb port will affect the flashing part.
lzk123 said:
Chill. Your phone is definitely not bricked. I encountered your problem before when i was experimenting with something.
- Right now, boot to whatever recovery that you have. Try to wipe cache, dalvik, and any other partition if possible.
- After that, boot to download mode and try to flash STOCK rom using odin. Check that flash was success.
- Try to boot your phone and report here on what happens.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again thanks for your effort! Much appreciated!
HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLYYY C*****************************************************!!!
That worked. It boots now!!!!!!
Faschoda said:
Again thanks for your effort! Much appreciated!
HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLYYY C*****************************************************!!!
That worked. It boots now!!!!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Glad to hear that.
Remember to always make a nandroid backup! I recommend using Philz Touch Recovery
lzk123 said:
Glad to hear that.
Remember to always make a nandroid backup! I recommend using Philz Touch Recovery
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How shall i install custom recovery? Via Odin or can i boot into stock recovery and apply update from there?
Faschoda said:
How shall i install custom recovery? Via Odin or can i boot into stock recovery and apply update from there?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Download the .tar file of the custom recovery. Flashed it through odin, at the PDA section.
Faschoda said:
That's Bull****. Nothing worked -.-
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Behave your speech smart guy, they are trying to help!
general rule on how to fix a bootloop:
1- Wipe data and cache. If not,
2- Restore a nandroid backup if available. If not,
3- Flash stock firmware, If not,
4- Flash stock firmware with pit file (you can try pit file alone).
samersh72 said:
Behave your speech smart guy, they are trying to help!
general rule on how to fix a bootloop:
1- Wipe data and cache. If not,
2- Restore a nandroid backup if available. If not,
3- Flash stock firmware, If not,
4- Flash stock firmware with pit file (you can try pit file alone).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Soooorrry! Wasn't meant in an offensive Way!
Faschoda said:
Soooorrry! Wasn't meant in an offensive Way!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
NVM, no problem
Glad that u got ur device back my friend i knew its just a matter of time b4 we give up
Here on instead of creating new thread please put it in Q&A thread u ll have many people giving u faster solutions the link is in my signature
All the Best :good:

Help me! ive soft bricked my boys S5360....

Hi,
I'm having a problem with my boys Galaxy Y S5360, it's stuck in a boot loop i can still get into both revovery and upload modes and still have access to the sd card.
I tried reinstalling factory software but that just removed CWM 5 and i'm still stuck with the boot loop help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :crying:
When you post things like this in the development section don't expect any help.
Post in the right section.
Thread reported.
Get stock rom and reflash your phone with odin.
Edit: You can get the info on how to do it in the correct section.
Sent from my GT-S5360 using Tapatalk 2
jammychap said:
Hi,
I'm having a problem with my boys Galaxy Y S5360, it's stuck in a boot loop i can still get into both revovery and upload modes and still have access to the sd card.
I tried reinstalling factory software but that just removed CWM 5 and i'm still stuck with the boot loop help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :crying:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you can either format data in cwm or in stock recovery format data/reset
or if that doesnt sort the boot loop quickest way to solve it is just to flash stock rom via odin
Remember next time before you do anything like flashing a mod or trying out something different to always make a nandroid backup in cwm - this way if you get into a boot loop or want to revert what you have done you just have to restore your nandroid backup
anyway stock rom firmware is found on my thread below
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2568853
HellBoy.007 said:
When you post things like this in the development section don't expect any help.
Post in the right section.
Thread reported.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep sorry, my mistake consider me told off
marcussmith2626 said:
you can either format data in cwm or in stock recovery format data/reset
or if that doesnt sort the boot loop quickest way to solve it is just to flash stock rom via odin
Remember next time before you do anything like flashing a mod or trying out something different to always make a nandroid backup in cwm - this way if you get into a boot loop or want to revert what you have done you just have to restore your nandroid backup
anyway stock rom firmware is found on my thread below
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2568853
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi ya mate,
I'm following your instructions but it's hanging on setup connection, i am using odin 3.07 in admin mode, not sure whats going on here, by the way there is no CWM installed at the mo it's reset to factory boot menu after trying someone elses method
jammychap said:
Hi ya mate,
I'm following your instructions but it's hanging on setup connection, i am using odin 3.07 in admin mode, not sure whats going on here, by the way there is no CWM installed at the mo it's reset to factory boot menu after trying someone elses method
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
follow the instructions fully on my thread
you need to install the usb drivers
you need to put your phone into download mode (vol down home button power button)
cwm is not required and not used to flash stock rom via odin - you must be in download mode NOT recovery mode
marcussmith2626 said:
follow the instructions fully on my thread
you need to install the usb drivers
you need to put your phone into download mode (vol down home button power button)
cwm is not required and not used to flash stock rom via odin - you must be in download mode NOT recovery mode
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ok we got there in the end, i had 2 versions of odin in the same folder and it was locking it up some how, separated, rebooted windows and it worked thanks.
now back to the start, ive just rooted it again now need to add some recovery, what one would you guys recommend?
jammychap said:
ok we got there in the end, i had 2 versions of odin in the same folder and it was locking it up some how, separated, rebooted windows and it worked thanks.
now back to the start, ive just rooted it again now need to add some recovery, what one would you guys recommend?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if on stock kernel use a tempory cwm zip in stock recovery to get to cwm (need to do it each time you want to enter cwm
http://d-h.st/u2m
or flash any kernel that has a perminant cwm - your choice dont ask me to suggest
Ok thanks, I've got a kernel installed and a rom, got a couple of issues but I'll take that to the correct thread now
Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk
All sorted now, installed Hyperion 9 rom, got one happy lad

[Q] mja wont boot into android or recovery!!

i really need help as ive searched around and have had no luck. my phone wont hold stock tar flash and i cant boot into android or recovery, i believe i need to wipe data but without recovery i dont know what else to do. have tried flashing several custom recoveries. no luck. stuck with a blue "booting into recovery" message and hangs up. any help would be appreciated. thanks
Download the new TWRP and flash
fearthemarchx said:
i really need help as ive searched around and have had no luck. my phone wont hold stock tar flash and i cant boot into android or recovery, i believe i need to wipe data but without recovery i dont know what else to do. have tried flashing several custom recoveries. no luck. stuck with a blue "booting into recovery" message and hangs up. any help would be appreciated. thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Download the new TWRP recovery and flash using Odin 3.x in the PDA tab.
You can google new TWRP rec links
M星空 said:
Download the new TWRP recovery and flash using Odin 3.x in the PDA tab.
You can google new TWRP rec links
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i tried that no luck. only recovery to stick and boot its philz. so at this point, ive tried odin mja,mk2, and nae. and recovery flash them as well. no luck. maybe bad downloads?
sorry
fearthemarchx said:
i tried that no luck. only recovery to stick and boot its philz. so at this point, ive tried odin mja,mk2, and nae. and recovery flash them as well. no luck. maybe bad downloads?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry,I don`t have better idear.

[Q] Need Help with TitaniumBackup screw up please. Anyone.

I have a Samsung Galaxy Tab 4 8.0 SM-T330NU KitKat 4.4.2
Sister borrowed by tablet on a study abroad trip and took it upon herself to root it. it was rooted successfully using Odin 3.10.6. she then installed TitaniumBackup Pro and started to uninstall things. in an effort to rid the tablet of bloatware, she probably deleted something important. When booted, tablet will stick on Samsung screen. So i factory reset. this goes smoothly, but right after the initial setup, i can see the notification bar if there is a notification present and can access the multi window thing at the bottom but no home screen. I also get an error saying "Unfortunately, Samsung Knox has stopped". When i am in settings or anything else and press the home key the screen just goes black. almost as thought everything else it there, its just missing the home screen. I flashed 2 different stock ROMs, and 1 pre-rooted ROM with Odin, and factory reset after and the same thing happens.
First try a factory reset in recovery not rom
in philz goto > wipe and format options > Factory reset and reboot
if no go then
Try formatting data,
adb pull all you important stuff off of tab first
then
in philz recovery goto > wipe and format options > wipe user media
twrp has a similar functions but i don't know where they are
then reflash an official release
m
moonbutt74 said:
First try a factory reset in recovery not rom
in philz goto > wipe and format options > Factory reset and reboot
if no go then
Try formatting data,
adb pull all you important stuff off of tab first
then
in philz recovery goto > wipe and format options > wipe user media
twrp has a similar functions but i don't know where they are
then reflash an official release
m
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
cannot operate the tablet to install philz
(Wasnt really clear on m y first reply, sorry.)
also, on attempt of flashing just downloaded stock ROM, Odin is telling me to get a PIT file, which are very specific to the device, but i cant seem to find one for the SM-330NU. Delete cache and factory reset done before i even tried flashing. Same result. the data is gone and ive made peach with that. I just want it to work at this point. as i cannot access the home screen, cannot install philz.
[email protected] said:
cannot operate the tablet to install philz
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
??
ok obviously I am confused about something. Could you elaborate on what you mean by using philz do those things? ive no idea what philz means.
[email protected] said:
ok obviously I am confused about something. Could you elaborate on what you mean by using philz do those things? ive no idea what philz means.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Philz is a touch version of Clockworkmod recovery (a custom recovery); you can install the tar file with Odin with the tablet in download mode. Alternatively you can use TWRP (a different custom recovery) instead of Philz, whichever you prefer
I went to the TWRP developer site and could not find a version for my model. Found your post of Philz downloads and got 6_58_9 final recovery and flashed it. flash said successful in Odin, but when i tried to reboot into recovery mode i see the "Recovery Mode: in the upper left corner for a split second, then it automatically jumps into download mode and says "Could not do normal boot" right above where it says Odin Mode.
[email protected] said:
I went to the TWRP developer site and could not find a version for my model. Found your post of Philz downloads and got 6_58_9 final recovery and flashed it. flash said successful in Odin, but when i tried to reboot into recovery mode i see the "Recovery Mode: in the upper left corner for a split second, then it automatically jumps into download mode and says "Could not do normal boot" right above where it says Odin Mode.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
TWRP here
sm-t330nu-Philz-6_58_9-recovery-milletwifiue.tar.md5
https://www.androidfilehost.com/?fid=95887005526787722
rename sm-t330nu-Philz-6_58_9-recovery-milletwifiue.tar.md5
to sm-t330nu-Philz-6_58_9-recovery-milletwifiue.tar
flash in odin with auto-restart UNCHECKED, when flash completes [res-ok] manually reboot to recovery
moonbutt74 said:
sm-t330nu-Philz-6_58_9-recovery-milletwifiue.tar.md5
https://www.androidfilehost.com/?fid=95887005526787722
rename sm-t330nu-Philz-6_58_9-recovery-milletwifiue.tar.md5
to sm-t330nu-Philz-6_58_9-recovery-milletwifiue.tar
flash in odin with auto-restart UNCHECKED, when flash completes [res-ok] manually reboot to recovery
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
"md5 error. Binary is invalid"
We have a winner! Thank you so much for the links. You saves my sister's life. Literally. I appriciate your time.
Edit: sorry didn't see that last post
The TWRP links posted by user badusenamechoice seemed to have worked. I truly appreciate your time and energy helping me out. I am a computer nerd from waaaay back, but I'm still learning the world of Android modding. So, thank you for you patience in explaining things to me. Even if it hadn't been fixed, its nice to know theres a forum out there with knowledgeable folks, should I eff it up myself. You are a gentleman and a scholar, sir.

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