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Onward to Nexus 2 ((article about N1 no actual info on N2))

http://asia.cnet.com/blogs/rehashplus/post.htm?id=63019568&scid=rvhm_ms
Gen 3 (Nexus One) came out mere weeks after the Milestone, using state-of-the-art technology not proven in the market. A shock to Motorola, certainly a shock to me, and I bought the Nexus One immediately when the specs were confirmed. How did it leapfrog Motorola's efforts? Probably because whoever made the Nexus One did not need to justify anything, project profits, etc. The only thing they needed to do was to make the Nexus COOL and to make it the bee's knees.
By all estimates, the Nexus One was a failure. Just because it had small sales numbers, limited distribution by telcos. But anyone who wanted it can buy it. For most people outside of the US, it's expensive like hell because it has none of the telco subsidy bull****. But it has no locks, no telco overlays, no badly customized custom user interfaces, it's easy to root, to hack, and to make it the phone of your dreams. It's the best handset I ever owned. Ever. Speaking of today, of course.
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The bolded really hit home.
I sincerely hope Google doesnt flat out give up on it. That they do have a sequel that will be available to all carriers. Nexus One pushed everything forward and back to back with the Droid legitimized Android as a premiere (and to many) THE premiere mobile OS. The amount of powerful handsets that have been dropped the last 7 months is ridiculous and only due to Android. Otherwise we'd still be stuck on Winmo 6.5 , an iPhone with no retina display or multitasking ,or a dead WebOS. Regardless of sales figures the Nexus one was the most important handset to drop this year.
Sadly because of those low sales figures Im not sure if we'll actually see a pure Google Nexus 2.
All these phones without colored trackballs have me worried too =-O.
p.s leave some comments...I tend to support bloggers/writers who can write without gross bias. This guy also happens to love N1.

Generally agree, except for the part of "By all estimates, the Nexus One was a failure". Low sales number don't equal failure. Look at PS3, they just broke even on that thing, and they sold A LOT.
Besides, google never planned to make money on phones. They are not htc. They don't make phones. They plan to make money on the OS and partnerships with manufacturers who want to run Android (+ google ads).
People forget that Nexus One, although branded as google phone, is actually an htc headset.

DarkDvr said:
Generally agree, except for the part of "By all estimates, the Nexus One was a failure". Low sales number don't equal failure. Look at PS3, they just broke even on that thing, and they sold A LOT.
Besides, google never planned to make money on phones. They are not htc. They don't make phones. They plan to make money on the OS and partnerships with manufacturers who want to run Android (+ google ads).
People forget that Nexus One, although branded as google phone, is actually an htc headset.
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It didnt shake anything up.
Most people have no Fn clue wth a Nexus One is.
Sales figures were laughable.
Thats what people will measure it by.
As a piece of technology it was massive success. Considering the BRUTAL bias and flat out bogus reviews it received , the 3g, wonky soft buttons , and MT problems you'd expect it to be a total dud.It was anything but.

xManMythLegend said:
It didnt shake anything up.
Most people have no Fn clue wth a Nexus One is.
Sales figures were laughable.
Thats what people will measure it by.
As a piece of technology it was massive success. Considering the BRUTAL bias and flat out bogus reviews it received , the 3g, wonky soft buttons , and MT problems you'd expect it to be a total dud.It was anything but.
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True, but I think we have to understand that goal was never to sell millions of Nexus Ones and make tons of money. N1 is kinda like a Android demo phone. Something that manufacturers and interested developers/users can try and see where Android is going, what it really is. That's the real goal, not to sell it as a regular money-making gizmo.
I think in that sense, N1 was a huge success. Think about it. Manuf. and developers tried it out, and loved it. Proof is that immediately manufacturers like htc, motorola and samsung (not even mentioning logitech, gm, cisco...) jumped on the bandwagon, seeing the potential in it.
I think the real hardware "money makers" were always intended to be Evo 4G, Galaxy S, some lower-end android phones that AT&T is launching.. Those are your standard gizmos whos success you can measure in sales numbers.
G1 -> Nexus One are special, their success is not to be measured in sales, but in exposure and future developments.

I have yet to handle any phone that feels as solid and expensive as my Nexus One.

I'd love to get my hands on a Nexus Two.
It doesn't even have spec rumors yet and I want it. I love the openness of it and that it's the one that gets Googles focus. Love it!

There won't be a nexus two.
Google is sitting on a pile of Nexus Ones and is trying to unload them anyway they can. It's painfully obvious retail hardware is not a business they want to further pursue.
Your best bet for another phone as open as the nexus will be the next developer phone, or something from Nokia's brand.

Google, give me a Nexus Two with the following:
4.3" Screen (720p-ish resolution)
Next-gen processor (hummingbird? or one of those duel-core cpus?)
768+ MB of RAM/ROM
Front Facing camera (VGA is fine)
8+ MP regular camera
Optical trackpad (see blackberry)
Hardware back, menu, home, search buttons
HDMI out
8GB internal storage (16 would be nice too )

Google have never actually said that the Nexus One was a failure right? They said that the Web Store is a failure as it didn't meet their expectations. The Nexus One not selling so many units is because it was only available on a failing web store. When Google announced they were closing the web store they said that Nexus One's will be sold in retail stores, they didn't say they are discontinuing the product like how Microsoft have with the Kin phones.
And Google have said that the reason the Nexus One didn't appear on Verizon and Sprint was because Google changed the sales model early on (choosing to close the web store but announcing it much later) and as the networks were going to get equivalent phones to the Nexus One, Google and the networks decided to pull out. I reckon the reason why the Nexus One was delayed so much on the Vodafone network was due to the fact that Google were changing their sales model.
However the Nexus One did achieve a goal of pushing manufactures to produce high quality phones. The Nexus One specs are now like a minimum for all future smartphones.

The nexus one was being produced at the same time as all the other HTC lineup, it's actually the lower end of HTC current snapdragon line.
Had google not bid on this specific model, we would proably be seeing this exact phone Labeled T-Mobile MyTouch HD or something without and unlockable bootloader.

do you guys honestly think google expected to sell millions of nexus one's when all they did is throw up a few ads on a few websites? they didnt do any primetime TV ads, nothing. you honestly think that google didnt do that on purpose? no way would they have expected huge sales with that kind of marketing platform (or lack thereof). they wanted a develper phone, and that's what they got. of course if they bought primetime TV space like apple does, then they would have sold a lot more. i dont see how people fail to see this logic.

JCopernicus said:
There won't be a nexus two.
Google is sitting on a pile of Nexus Ones and is trying to unload them anyway they can. It's painfully obvious retail hardware is not a business they want to further pursue.
Your best bet for another phone as open as the nexus will be the next developer phone, or something from Nokia's brand.
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If that'd be true in any way, u'd see discounted prices and specials for N1.
Do you? Cause if you find one, I'd love to be proven wrong (my friend wants nothing but N1 now).

DarkDvr said:
If that'd be true in any way, u'd see discounted prices and specials for N1.
Do you? Cause if you find one, I'd love to be proven wrong (my friend wants nothing but N1 now).
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They still have an investment in them, they're not going to willingly lose that money.
My comment was directed at their current strategy of selling them in "retail stores all over the place".

RogerPodacter said:
do you guys honestly think google expected to sell millions of nexus one's when all they did is throw up a few ads on a few websites? they didnt do any primetime TV ads, nothing. you honestly think that google didnt do that on purpose? no way would they have expected huge sales with that kind of marketing platform (or lack thereof). they wanted a develper phone, and that's what they got. of course if they bought primetime TV space like apple does, then they would have sold a lot more. i dont see how people fail to see this logic.
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EXACTLY. You guys are jumping on a bandwagon of "N1 was a fail". It's completely wrong. Stop believing stuff that some trolls write on a forum.
It's extremelly shallow to think that all things that are released are released to sell as many as possible. Or that pure "items sold" would give you an idea of how successfull item was.
There are many, many cases of special edition cars, stereo systems, you name it. Some items are designed and sold for a different purpose. To increase awareness, to hit a small portion of the market. To create a sense of "rarity" or "urgency", etc etc.
Want proof? Ok. Remember the GMAIL model. First year or two you could ONLY get gmail by INVITE. If you didn't know, google wrote a book on "Virus Marketing". Creating a sense of rareness, coolness and priviledge towards a certain item. It works, they're not idiots. They are doing the same thing with N1. Just enough marketing to sell them, but not enough to sate people with the idea. Think about it.
In a way, you're holding a rare (or soon to be), barely advertised, special edition Android 2 phone. Don't complain that not everyone bought one. It was never meant to be.
Besides.. don't be naive. If google (one of biggest web advertisers in the world) would want to REALLY advertise their phone... Trust you me, they'd advertise the BEJESUS out of it. They'd sell millions worldwide. That's just not their goal.

JCopernicus said:
They still have an investment in them, they're not going to willingly lose that money.
My comment was directed at their current strategy of selling them in "retail stores all over the place".
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Changing from online sales to store sales does NOT equal failed product.
Even if google indeed got dissapointed with online sale model, it doesn't mean that N1 is an epic fail, as quote from first post states.

I never said it was a failed product, they've already turned a profit on it.
Changing your primary business model shows your product wasn't a great success.

JCopernicus said:
I never said it was a failed product, they've already turned a profit on it.
Changing your primary business model shows your product wasn't a great success.
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Correct but the product that wasn't a success is the Google Web Store, not the Nexus One.
The Web Store failed, the Nexus One didn't.

Sarg92 said:
Correct but the product that wasn't a success is the Google Web Store, not the Nexus One.
The Web Store failed, the Nexus One didn't.
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This is more in general, and not directed specifically at you, Sarg, but at some of the similar comments along the same lines.
I'm pretty sure Google was aware of these things prior to selling the N1:
1 - Most people in the states buy phones subsidized from the carriers
2 - Most people don't want to shell out almost $600 for a phone
3 - The economy kinda sucks
Why would they proceed, knowing the above, if they intended the N1 to be as successful as the iPhone?
Perhaps, just perhaps, Google is aware of a small but serious community of people who love technology and want the latest and greatest. Perhaps Google's goal all along was to target a select few and push the development of the OS, the apps, and the general market for Android devices.
To me, the N1 is really like phase 2 or 3 in a lengthy strategic plan that is, in all aspects, going rather well.
1 - Secure an OS (Purchase of Android)
2 - Develop and market and OS (Release of G1)
3 - Grow the base
a - Advertise Android​b - Put out more Android devices​c - Release a killer device to spur OS, app, and marketshare development​4 - Drop more serious Android devices (and we're seeing a ton now)
5 - World domination
The indent feature on 3a, b, and c didn't work quite like planned, but c'est la vie. You get the idea.

th0r615 said:
Google, give me a Nexus Two with the following:
4.3" Screen (720p-ish resolution)
Next-gen processor (hummingbird? or one of those duel-core cpus?)
768+ MB of RAM/ROM
Front Facing camera (VGA is fine)
8+ MP regular camera
Optical trackpad (see blackberry)
Hardware back, menu, home, search buttons
HDMI out
8GB internal storage (16 would be nice too )
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Click to collapse
I could imagine with Gingerbread coming in October, and the fact that the Dev 2 phone (myTouch) doesn't fit any of the requirements, that we'll see a pretty updated Dev 3 phone designed specifically for Gingerbread.
That's would make logical sense to me anyway.

I wish nexus one had more storage (4GB or higher) because it can't rely on memory card as it may fail. In addition, more storage can let me store more music on the phone itself and free the memory card for video.
Generally I am happy with nexus one and I think the migration from WM is a right decision.

Why Do Phone Manufacturers Make so Many Models?

Why do manufacturers pump out so many phones, with none making a real name for themselves? It seems like if HTC released maybe three phones, and every network could have them, they would get some momentum, and a franchise product; a "Name" for themselves. Because no manufacturer does this, I don't think there will ever be an Android to stand up sales wise with the iPhone.
Imo, back in June, HTC should have used the Evo name and ran with it:
Evo
Evo Compact (the Incredible)
Evo Shift
Then once a year or even bi-yearly, the whole line is updated for all carriers with sequential numbers added to the end, ala apple. Does this not seem like a better model? It must not be I assume, because it's not what is being done... but I feel like with the Evo and Incredible being such great phones they would really gain significant traction had they had similar names, and been available on all networks... Instead there is Evo, Incredible, Atria, Thunderbolt, Pyramid, etc. Really confusing.

well..
verizon is trying that with the "droid" name... notice how many have that? they have put a lot of branding to that brandname... "droid"
TMobile has the brand "mytouch"
rumor is ..
sprint will work with the "EVO" branding. EVO and EVO Shift.

Yeah, thats true, and I guess I might would add the shift to my above lineup, so they have a keyboard model... but what I meant, and i just realized I didn't make it obvious in my post was, why do they send basically the same phone with a slightly altered design and different name to different carriers, as opposed to releasing one line up to all?
Edit: So from rereading what you said, it seems like the carrier has a big say in what the name of the phone is? Or is it up to the manufacturer?

i would guess.. that the carriers have a large say in the names.
why would they make a few changes? again this is my guess.
it is a marketing thing... for PRICE specials....
if all 4 carriers had the exact same phone... then they loose some "identity". think of Yukon, Suburban, Escalade, Tahoe.
also..if one carrier has one on sale then the others will have to match the price. If not then the customers might feel a little cheated.
if different name or slight look change, the no longer have to match the price. Most dont know that they are the same; again look at the SUV example i gave.
Think about when Walmart has a Samsung LCD tv on sale.. it is model XY2100. Best Buy has the same samsung LCD XY2100B. they have the exact same specs, but the Best Buy has a chrome panel. Sorry no price match.

I 2nd this big time.
I'm in complete agreement with this OP, and in fact was thinking the exact same thing the other day.
Android has such a confusing and fragmented ecosystem that's it's not funny. I believe this is a result of the "young & wild" thinking behind the business model of the original Open Handset Alliance that Google helped form during Anrdroid's inception. Google came forth with a set of rules, but were perhaps a little too loose on their requirements. They made a set of hardware parameters that Android phones "should" utilize. And in a desperate attempt to become relevant during the iphone craze of the last few years, said "have at it, go build some Androids".
I understand the thinking behind such a model, as not everyone needs, or can afford a high end device i.e., Evo, Incredible, Droid X etc. Some people want to spend $100 or less and have a data enabled phone without giant touch screens, and 5+ MP camera functions. They just want to text, and download ringtones etc, as this is economically viable.
This model has some major pitfalls however, being that; 1) With marketing ploys like Verizon's "Droid", & 2) A new low end Android phone coming out every month -
Android as a whole becomes more and more anonymous and confusing to the average consumer. A lot of people are already walking around asking, "What the hell is Android anyway?" They know they want a smart phone, or maybe even the ubiquitous iPhone like all of their friends and family have... They hear about Android, and how cool and open it is, then go to purchase one from ATT, Sprint, Verizon, US Cellular, Tmobile, Etc... WTF, who to go with, and now, which phone! Wait, what do you mean I can only get the Galaxy Captivate on ATT? Why can I only get the Evo on Sprint, and the G2 on TMO?
Not a very fluid purchase, and then to find out that your precious phone won't be receiving the latest OS updates becomes the nail in the coffin.
This is the biggest thing I've noticed about Android since purchasing my Evo in June. If I didn't have some technical know how, and the support of XDA, my Evo would be near obsolete already. However, I am not the "average" consumer, I love to hack things. Most people want a good phone that will last a year or two, and not have to feel buyer's remorse every few months when a better and faster device hits the shelves.
You could make the same argument about Apple devices with their yearly refresh, and most technology for that matter but I feel the impact of this phenomenon may be greatest with Android... It's almost as if the marketing gurus at all the big telco's want to cram as much of this stuff out into the public, before we realize what's going on, and don't want it anymore.
I love Android, and my Evo is a good phone (not great), but I clearly see behind their marketing fluff, and their poorly disguised ecosystem if you can call it that.
Don't even get me started on the failure that is the Android Market.... Ugh...
What a messy, clusterf¨©k. An unorganized, unregulated, bloated piece of $Free.99 garbage. Google seems to actually encourage "free w/ads" apps over developers making GOOD apps, and getting paid for them!
Not to mention the lack of security, repetition, and licensing infringement that runs rampant throughout. This may seem off topic, but it all ties in to the lack of standardization that plagues Google, and Android as a whole.
If I were Google's CEO, I would clamp down fast in a clear and concise manner with Motorola, HTC and LG etc, and call for better hardware standardization, less marketing fluff, and actually give Devs a reason to want to get involved with the Android market. One way of doing this would be to stop selling old hardware (read, crappy) repackaged in a new phone.
Granted, Android sales are huge right now, but if they stay on this rocky path, the Big G may soon find themselves in a sales plateau, if not on their way to a canyon. They set out to be different, which is good, but sometimes different ends up being strange.

to cater to everyones needs

Most people I know usually refer HTC brand as the Cadillac of phones.
And @Mitch...like apple dont have 1000's of pointless and useless apps and without a option to refund.

Touche' Phatman,
I wasn't trying to rant or complain, so sorry if I did. I've had a mixed experience with my phone, (and it shows.)

Touch>Touch Pro>Touch Pro 2
Sent From My HTC Evo 4G On The Now Network From Sprint Using Tapatalk Pro!

Did amazon not think it through?

Er.. So, Why did amazon bother to not add the android market, if they aren't going to block loading APKs, or actively try to prevent root?
My mom who knows nothing about android could be walked through that process...

Try asking B&N the same thing?

Amazon thought it through perfectly. They aren't selling or attempting to actually sell a mobile computing device (tablet). They are selling a next gen Kindle (PMP). Have a look at the Nook Color and the iPod Touch, then compare against a Galaxy Tab, Xoom, Thrive, iPad 2, and Transformer. See the difference?

If they wanted the Android Market, Google has strict requirements that would keep amazon from doing all the data mining they want to sell ad data to partners. If you have the Google Android Market on a device you make Google gets all the info..
I think....
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using xda premium

cos they just made so you buy from amazon.com they make a $10 loss on each one, they hope to gain that from selling stuff via amazon.com

natand12342010 said:
cos they just made so you buy from amazon.com they make a $10 loss on each one, they hope to gain that from selling stuff via amazon.com
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It doesn't look like they are taking much of a loss at all according to this study: http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=212876 Making a profit actually.

Mama Luigi said:
Try asking B&N the same thing?
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I've been curious about the nook as well.
On the other hand, even if not a lot, I figured they were making a bit more money off of their product than amazon who is potentially using their tablet as a loss leader.

Snow_fox said:
I've been curious about the nook as well.
On the other hand, even if not a lot, I figured they were making a bit more money off of their product than amazon who is potentially using their tablet as a loss leader.
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It's all about "branding" the consumer. The earlier a company can get you to like/use their product the more likely it is you will continue to use them. The AF, by trying to restrict content and funnel only to their "approved" providers they can make dollars on volume. Apple does the same thing by getting their products into schools. Get 'em while their young! lol McDonald's does the same thing. What parent doesn't relent (often enough) to the protestations of their kid lamenting for the latest Happy Meal toy?
Downsides are galore. If a high school senior only knows Apple..they are severely limited in the marketplace (like it as not it's still a MS Business World). McDonald's? Fat kids with poor eating habits...Amazon Only Contest? One loses the richness of choice. See what I mean?
(I just might be a little cynical? lol)

skeeterpro said:
It's all about "branding" the consumer. The earlier a company can get you to like/use their product the more likely it is you will continue to use them. The AF, by trying to restrict content and funnel only to their "approved" providers they can make dollars on volume. Apple does the same thing by getting their products into schools. Get 'em while their young! lol McDonald's does the same thing. What parent doesn't relent (often enough) to the protestations of their kid lamenting for the latest Happy Meal toy?
Downsides are galore. If a high school senior only knows Apple..they are severely limited in the marketplace (like it as not it's still a MS Business World). McDonald's? Fat kids with poor eating habits...Amazon Only Contest? One loses the richness of choice. See what I mean?
(I just might be a little cynical? lol)
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You're dead on actually. This is a proven marketing method that works so well that various companies are banned from using it (tobacco, alcohol, etc). Apple's variant has been particularly successful because they didn't just get their product out to the kids. They also worked hard to convince the kids that without an Apple product, you weren't cool. Once this took hold, all Apple needed to do was continue to play upon that theme with each later device, as the "cool factor" propagates on its own, both forward and backward across generations. The older crowd by nature wants to appear to be young and hip, and the very young crowd want to appear older and cool. So, Apple wins across the board, from the elementary school almost all the way up to the retirees.

Cobey_S said:
You're dead on actually. This is a proven marketing method that works so well that various companies are banned from using it (tobacco, alcohol, etc). Apple's variant has been particularly successful because they didn't just get their product out to the kids. They also worked hard to convince the kids that without an Apple product, you weren't cool. Once this took hold, all Apple needed to do was continue to play upon that theme with each later device, as the "cool factor" propagates on its own, both forward and backward across generations. The older crowd by nature wants to appear to be young and hip, and the very young crowd want to appear older and cool. So, Apple wins across the board, from the elementary school almost all the way up to the retirees.
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The iPhone 4S is a failure in the sense that it looks like and has the same appearance as the iPhone 4. No discernable COOL factor here. Buyers will have to wear a pin "This Is The 4S"

1215kids said:
The iPhone 4S is a failure in the sense that it looks like and has the same appearance as the iPhone 4. No discernable COOL factor here. Buyers will have to wear a pin "This Is The 4S"
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iPhone 1G, 3G, and 3GS all looked identical as well, but that didn't stop shoppers, nor the "cool" effect brought of having an "in" product. The appearance and technical excellence have little to nothing to do with it. "I have an iPhone," on the other hand does, and that's the brilliance behind Apple's variant on the "capture the hearts and minds of the young" marketing approach.

Er. Guys.
Let me say the iphone 4s may have failed in a few ways.
1. People expected an iphone 5. Even if it would have the exact same hardware.. people wanted to hear "iphone 5". Apple failed at marketing.. which is big since it is almost more of a marketing company than anything else.
2. A lot of people *were* hoping to see changes. Being totally honest.. the iphone design is tired in a lot of ways. The 3.5" screen is small despite the iphone being almost the same size as a 4" device. The problem is if they raise the size to 4" then it is just going to look gigantic..
Apple is in a bad situation honestly. If they change it, they alienate a lot of fans.
If they don't, the design just keeps looking older and older..

Snow_fox said:
Er. Guys.
Let me say the iphone 4s may have failed in a few ways.
1. People expected an iphone 5. Even if it would have the exact same hardware.. people wanted to hear "iphone 5". Apple failed at marketing.. which is big since it is almost more of a marketing company than anything else.
2. A lot of people *were* hoping to see changes. Being totally honest.. the iphone design is tired in a lot of ways. The 3.5" screen is small despite the iphone being almost the same size as a 4" device. The problem is if they raise the size to 4" then it is just going to look gigantic..
Apple is in a bad situation honestly. If they change it, they alienate a lot of fans.
If they don't, the design just keeps looking older and older..
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Myself, and the others that I know that are technically inclined are in complete agreement with you. On the flip side, not one of my friends or customers, that use their iPhones as status symbols more than anything else, feel that way. To them, it's a new iPhone, and they want it. Sadly, that bunch easily outnumbers the technically inclined. I feel that is pretty accurate for the market as a whole as well - those that know better are the minority by a long shot.

They thought it through, but with their own concept on reality
No Google market, the low storage and no microsd slot are all by design to force a bunch of lemmings (they appear to think we all are) into their revenue cloud.
Just wait till folks get on the road with these things and find out the cloud only hovers around a wifi connection
IMO, the Flyer is the current best 7" device for price and features. Compared to the Fire:
1. 8gb more storage
2. 512mb more ram
3. The SoC per Anandtech and my own practical tests performs better with Flash, games, video and everything else in between (I also have a Droid 3, which has 512mb ram and 4430 SoC to compare in a practical manner).
4. Microsd slot
5. GPS
6. BOTH markets
7. Install from other sources
8. Camera
9. Better build
The extra $100 seems a very sound investment for most folks.
The Fire IMO is a low end, second rate iPad wannabe, with a UI and storefront model to support it. CrabApple.

Cobey_S said:
On the flip side, not one of my friends or customers, that use their iPhones as status symbols more than anything else, feel that way. To them, it's a new iPhone, and they want it.
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But it looks exactly the same as last year's model. Now in order to feel superior, they have to ask everyone holding one if they have the 4 or 4s. That's a lot of work.

thatdude90210 said:
But it looks exactly the same as last year's model. Now in order to feel superior, they have to ask everyone holding one if they have the 4 or 4s. That's a lot of work.
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Who cares? The 4S is released as a mid-range device. Apple has no high-end devices now... They're failing on this release.

thatdude90210 said:
But it looks exactly the same as last year's model. Now in order to feel superior, they have to ask everyone holding one if they have the 4 or 4s. That's a lot of work.
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One would think, right? Not the case. So far, I have but one iPhone lover that isn't budging on the update to the 4S, 30-40 that are getting it because it's new, and 8 that are converting from Android to iOS and are rather excited to get it.

rushless said:
They thought it through, but with their own concept on reality
No Google market, the low storage and no microsd slot are all by design to force a bunch of lemmings (they appear to think we all are) into their revenue cloud.
Just wait till folks get on the road with these things and find out the cloud only hovers around a wifi connection
IMO, the Flyer is the current best 7" device for price and features. Compared to the Fire:
1. 8gb more storage
2. 512mb more ram
3. The SoC per Anandtech and my own practical tests performs better with Flash, games, video and everything else in between (I also have a Droid 3, which has 512mb ram and 4430 SoC to compare in a practical manner).
4. Microsd slot
5. GPS
6. BOTH markets
7. Install from other sources
8. Camera
9. Better build
The extra $100 seems a very sound investment for most folks.
The Fire IMO is a low end, second rate iPad wannabe, with a UI and storefront model to support it. CrabApple.
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Click to collapse
Being totally honest, I must admit I am considering the Kindle fire, but I am waiting to see what else comes out first.
If I *only* wanted a tablet, spending 100$ more on a flyer would be ok.. But, I also have a few other things on my "christmas list" A few ps3 games (infamous2 and resistance3), a new comp case.. (obsidian 650d) and I would like a tablet so I can read manga somewhere besides at my computer screen.
So for me, it becomes an issue of practicality.. How much can I really afford to spend on a tablet in the near future?
I mean sure it *is* limited to the cloud.. however without the internet most devices become borderline useless anyway.

Snow_fox said:
Being totally honest, I must admit I am considering the Kindle fire, but I am waiting to see what else comes out first.
If I *only* wanted a tablet, spending 100$ more on a flyer would be ok.. But, I also have a few other things on my "christmas list" A few ps3 games (infamous2 and resistance3), a new comp case.. (obsidian 650d) and I would like a tablet so I can read manga somewhere besides at my computer screen.
So for me, it becomes an issue of practicality.. How much can I really afford to spend on a tablet in the near future?
I mean sure it *is* limited to the cloud.. however without the internet most devices become borderline useless anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For what you say, Snow, the AF might well be ideal for what you seek. The again, let's all keep in mind that as of right now, the AF cannot really be considered an "android tablet" but more a "dedicated e-reader running android". That is if/until it is rooted by some of the marvelous devs on XDA.
My money's on the devs. lol

Snow_fox said:
Being totally honest, I must admit I am considering the Kindle fire, but I am waiting to see what else comes out first.
If I *only* wanted a tablet, spending 100$ more on a flyer would be ok.. But, I also have a few other things on my "christmas list" A few ps3 games (infamous2 and resistance3), a new comp case.. (obsidian 650d) and I would like a tablet so I can read manga somewhere besides at my computer screen.
So for me, it becomes an issue of practicality.. How much can I really afford to spend on a tablet in the near future?
I mean sure it *is* limited to the cloud.. however without the internet most devices become borderline useless anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Depends on what you use. I have tons of games, videos and emulator roms. Use them while traveling and other area where wifi is no open or available.
This device is as limited as you could get.
As far as rooting, why? There is no space to do anything with it. Breach the Amazon cloud and the functionality is even less. Assuming inflation for my contract manufacturing days for connectors (buyer), the total cost for a sd slot port is 75 cents to add to design (components circuit bridge). This means probably $1.50 applied to sellers to maintain margin.
Could argue that is money they save, but I suggest the lack of one is FAR more costly, since it will sell well until people are savvy to no card expansion and the "forced" cloud use. They should have added the slot, but it is not there by design- they want cloud usage so they can data mine and also get revenue linked to their B class iTunes effort.
For someone not constrained on an extra $100, the Flyer is FAR better for reasons mentioned above (at least). Added: Heck, even my very non-tech wife does not want the Fire, due to no microsd slot. A key reason she also did not want an iPad either.
---------- Post added at 07:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:41 PM ----------
Snow_fox said:
Er. Guys.
Let me say the iphone 4s may have failed in a few ways.
1. People expected an iphone 5. Even if it would have the exact same hardware.. people wanted to hear "iphone 5". Apple failed at marketing.. which is big since it is almost more of a marketing company than anything else.
2. A lot of people *were* hoping to see changes. Being totally honest.. the iphone design is tired in a lot of ways. The 3.5" screen is small despite the iphone being almost the same size as a 4" device. The problem is if they raise the size to 4" then it is just going to look gigantic..
Apple is in a bad situation honestly. If they change it, they alienate a lot of fans.
If they don't, the design just keeps looking older and older..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have an iPod 4 64gb and like it a lot, but would not have a iPhone, since too constrained for me (ditto on an iPad). Still, the new models have the dual core and a 64gb option. Not too shabby for iPhone lovers who are media and game freaks.
The problem is the "retina display". If they increase the size, ditto on the display res. Probably too costly and not reliable enough for efficient yields from production. Cost curve for a 4" retina is probably evil (for now).

RANT - Tablets run about 12 months behind current technology

Ipad3 is about to hit, and it'll have at least a 2000x1500 display. The little 4.5" android phones now have 1280x800 displays and look fabulous - plus the new ones announced at the show in January. The little 11" Macbook Air (I know, a different monster) boasts a 1400x900 display - and that was 2 years ago. And they'll get a tech refresh in April that will likely come close to doubling that. As my boss told me -- "It's all about the screen, stupid".
Half of the current run Tablets have soldered in batteries, half don't even have an SD slot. Those that do use Micro SDs and not the full SDs - which are 3x in capacity and much cheaper. The file systems are archaic, and most don't even use journaling.
Most tablets are stuck on 1GB of usable OS ram, some only 512M - circa 2007. Most come out of the factory "locked" so we can't even improve them ourselves. Any improvements are laughingly done by some pretty smart anonymous developers that are doing your job - something you should have done on the drawing board in the first place. (Give HTC an A+ for unlocking the majority of their equipment - despite the threats from ATT and Verizon lawyers). Some of the tablets are locked into cell companies contracts, and most make pitiful phones anyway.
Most are stuck on cell phone processors, with cell phone graphics chips, cell phone IO controllers, and cell phone memory controllers. None have SDDrives (Ipad3 will blow us away with those too in April - watch).
Some are narrowed down to one vendors files types for reading, and reluctantly include other reading s/w (pdfs etc) as if someone twisted their arms. And non-native formats are ALWAYS just awful on these machines (Nooks, Fires etc).
None have Linux as a base, although with enough trouble we can do it ourselves sans the majority of broken functionality (drivers don't work, bugs, lags, bluetooth, batteries etc). And most can't run in the little 1GB of RAM put in these devices anyway.
These manufacturers just don't get it. They're all about to get their collective butts kicked with the new Ipad, and they'll sit back and scratch their heads saying "Why, we didn't know you customers wanted hi-res displays - nobody told us that - it's not our fault".
Ok guys, and that includes you, Samsung. And you, Asus. And Sony and LG and HTC and all the others. You're in for the azz-kicking of your life and you were warned. You're stuck in your closed-door 3x5 room in Communist China, and your products are all ball-and-chained. Jobs was slick enough to make the China-US thing work, and it took $billions to pay off the gov'ts and build production facilities. He made it look easy - but that certainly doesn't mean just anybody can copy that same manufacturing model and make it work as well as Apple did.
It'll take you about 6 months to even come to terms with your incompetence, re-design this mess, and production is another few months after after testing. In the meantime, iPad3 will dominate for the majority of 2012. So maybe next Christmas we'll see some decent Android tablets, or at least the announcements.
Problem is, is you're terrified. You're afraid to do anything similar to what Steve did. You're scared you'll be fired next day. You have neither the capital nor the balls, nor the competence to produce decent equipment. So if I were you I'd just give it up until October - that'll give you ~1/2 year of humility to get your act together. In the meantime, please don't put out yet ANOTHER 1024x768 tablet with promises of OS upgrades someday on the shelves with fanfare. Besides, the Samsung Note cellphone makes a much better Tablet than anything you've produced to date

I can't agree more with what you posted. But posting this here, will do nothing to make things change. Also I know it isn't your intent, but your post does sound like "apple fan boy". I know that's not what your saying, its just the way it comes across.
What made HTC re-think their bootloader policy? Public/User/Developer pressure.
Create a Facebook group and get the word out. I'm all for better quality, more developer friendly devices.
I suggest Facebook as XDA has only 4 million registered users, Facebook has 845 active Million (Source)

Boy, you're right. That did sound like a SJ fanboy now that I re-read it. Thanks so much for the reflection which was right on.
So good insight - the point being that once again Apple has whipped the majority of open source into submission. Once again. And it's just as pointless this time as it has been in the past. This didn't HAVE to happen. The show in Jan should have be way ahead of Apple's power curve and beat them at their own game. That was the Android opportunity. Instead, we got things like a Razr with a bigger battery, and a boatload of maybe type announcements.
Announcements like OS upgrades - the Achilles heel of Android offerings. "Buy this now and we promise to upgrade it next week - we promise - ok"? Sign here.
Somebody mentioned on another forum that some decent quads were supposed to hit the streets around iPad3 time, I sure hope so. But my point is that now Android may be WAY behind, quad, duos, 8x or even matrixed memory. It's hard enough competing with Apple daily, much less when the judges let the Apple horses out of the gate 4 months ahead of all the rest.
A Quad? Well, cool. But what kind of quad? How about Intel? How about RISC? How about 6 or 7A batteries? How about USB3? How about flexible screens? How about firewire or even a fiber standard? But our bragging points over the holidays were these dockable semi-keyboard dual unit thingies multi-part gadgets, sigh.
Actually my point was despite Apple's reign on this whole market we Androiders' have got the best people. We've got the best engineers. The best scientists. We've got the best coders. But it's aggravating that whenever we get a head of steam, we kick our feet on the table, light up a cigar and sure enough - 6 months later Apple sneaks in the back door and forecloses on us. With all the legal fanfare and international press due such an event. These little Androids are just too good to be tossed under the bus because of no-vision like this.
You know, now that we're playing around way up in the jetstream with the big boys, we're now flying into a 200kt headwind here. Not that Apple is already enough of a headache. But NOW we've got the dam cellphone companies so tangled in greed that some feel we may as well just land till the wind dies down. Oh boy, we've got LTE with 2GB caps, with entire rooms full of cellphone company staffers (mostly in India) writing code to catch us busting limits. It's nuts.
In any event, let's don't strut around thinking that since we Android-ers are much more realistic and even sharper than the iPod crowd, that we've naturally got the lead. We don't. Blame it on Google for not policing Android maybe. Or maybe the platforms. Or the manufactures' them selves. Blame isn't the point - the point is they're about to kick our azzes again regardless of fault

Hmm, /some/ points, but I /have/ to correct a few misunderstandings...
ARM is RISC. Saying same as 'cell phone processors' isn't really fair as those cell phone processors are going to be used for the WIN8 tablets (and I suspect Apple's main OS possibly too). Something that used to trundle along at a pedestrian's pace is now capable of great visual/sound processing, decent speed in the UI, background FTP'ing, all whilst using GPS to determing where you are as you yell over the phone (using bluetooth).
Specs for iPad3 are still unknown, probably overflated, and when the devices DO land, probably missing some obvious stuff Android devices already have but WILL be there for the next version! go go goodteam upgrades!
Screens I think have hit the 'good enough for anything' rez, we're going to see varieties of designs, but that's where Android is doing great on different styles. It may have been a bit faffy for devs to make sure their apps work at various sizes/densities, but it'll pay off eventually. It's a problem Windows machines solve easily enough, and eventually, if Apple DO want to offer more choice, something they'll need to master too. There'll be bigger/faster gfx chips able to pump out more triangles, and as you correctly say, the memory busses could do with a bit more oomph to help that, but this are all problems solved on the desktop, and the chip manufacturers are doing a great job bringing faster speeds with lower power to better looking displays. Rez? Probably not going to change that much, but the contrast/ability to clearly see outdoors using these things? that'll get a bit of a bump I think yet.
I'm with you on the SD slot. Wish there were more devices using the larger slot, would give more upgrade room later. What we've got works fine for pure memory though, it's just additional storage. As to filesystems? Meh, what we've got there is fine, looks like a few people are switching to ext4, but it's a decent filesystem, battle tested and improved.
PDF's/SWF's/doc's, there's apps to handle any of that, if you even need to edit them. Tablets are great for readonly viewing of these things. I'd hate to spend too long creating too many big documents, but whatever I create on the PC should be available, and so far, it is. We'll see what Microsoft does to file formats in the future, I think with Win8 and having MSOffice come with ARM tablets, we'll see MS doing what MS do best, screwing everyone else and forcing upgrades.
None have Linux as a base? Uhm... there's a Linux kernal running away there on all the Android Tablets. Though I'd like to see the Android fork merge back one day, I don't fully understand the need for the locks to make Android fork instead of using/adapting how Linux already did that, but hope something can be done to bring it back home to the main tree.
Hirez screens, price, availability, demand. If there was an Android Tablet today offering 3kx3k, but cost 1200bucks? It'd be niche. Alas, in this world, it takes Apple to release and demo before people 'get it', and manufactures accept they need to ramp up production, for the demand. Androids been pushing up the rez, the OS supports it, the hardware can run it now, and prices aren't too off the chart, I see them coming down in price. Again, no-one knows for sure upcoming rez specs for the iPad3, the top end Android tablets (of which the latest Prime has top rez I think?) could be above/match what's coming from Cupertino.
I'm with you on the Note too. I got the Samsung Galaxy Tab that I wanted to use as a phone/tablet combo, it's taken until ICS to /really/ make it smooth to use, and the phone functionality being killed in the US was just stupid. It was a mistake that they're not making with the Note it appears, that really should have been released 6-9months ago in the US, even with a lower spec chip. The move to tabphones/phonelets? has been obvious. (and also makes me wonder if, despite Jobs saying no to it, if Apple WILL release a bigger phone/smaller tablet.). There's an obvious demand for that sort of size, it really does give you the best of both worlds.
Some challenging points you bring up, look forward to further thoughts sir!

andyharney said:
I can't agree more with what you posted. But posting this here, will do nothing to make things change. Also I know it isn't your intent, but your post does sound like "apple fan boy". I know that's not what your saying, its just the way it comes across.
What made HTC re-think their bootloader policy? Public/User/Developer pressure.
Create a Facebook group and get the word out. I'm all for better quality, more developer friendly devices.
I suggest Facebook as XDA has only 4 million registered users, Facebook has 845 active Million (Source)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://www.groubal.com/htc-bootloaders-and-nand/
Need i say any more
Sent from my GT-P1000 using XDA App

buckwheat.phd said:
Waaaah
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Waaaaaaah.

Pixel Prediction (6 months from now 10/5/16-4/5/17)

I've been talking a lot with my friends about this who are also Android users. I know there are a lot of opinions about the Pixel, so I thought it would be interesting to make a thread to check back on in 6 months from launch to see how things panned out. At the end of the day either Google is correct with this phone, or the community was right in predicting the change. I figured 6 months is enough time to get the phone in the pipeline and where a price cut would be susceptible if one were to occur.
Here's my analysis:
Existing problems:
1. Pixel phone contains basic vanilla Android at the same price as an iPhone and Samsung with feature filled software skins.
2. Apple and Samsung both have established their product in the marketplace, unlike the Pixel. Samsung didn't get any real traction until the Galaxy S3/Note 3.........three generations in.....this is Pixel's first.
3. The biggest competitor (Galaxy/Note 7), both have expandable SD card storage and water resistance that the Pixel does not.
4. Only exclusive on Verizon, which allows only a small population to get it subsidized. (Both Apple/Samsung sell contract subsidized phones for BOTH Verizon and Sprint which creates a lower barrier to entry).
5. Google assistant which is one of its selling points, I don't see a huge immediate use for it unlike a better camera, or water resistance. There is a variant of this type of technology already out. It's called "SIRI" for iPhone and "S-Voice" for Samsung. It's been out for years and I don't know anyone personally who uses either on a daily basis. (or at all)
6. There are no "frills" to this phone. I keep saying that, however; the typically buyer of iPhone/Samsung do not know anything about the internals or the hardware. (How else would Apple get people to buy $3,000 laptops ? It's not the hardware they are buying). The phone is just too plain for mainstream appeal. Next time you see someone with a Samsung ask them if their bootloader is locked........then ask it in Japanese....you'll get the same response.
Pixel is taking aim at "mainstream", yet offering very little in terms of "frills" that mainstream typically likes yet charging flagship pricing. There is already a significant conflict in this strategy.
It's obvious based on the chart I uploaded Google's competency is not hardware unlike Apple......which would explain a lot. While I love Android, it's a small revenue of their overall revenue. Most likely, they are looking to diversify from just search and add to the bottom line as well from the smartphone market. It's very bold to try and compete against Apple that gets 53% of their overall revenue from iPhone alone, when Google has very little experience in that area (hardware).
Prediction:
In 6 months (or less), the Pixel phones will get price cuts to the same price as the 5x ($379) and 6p ($499). The phone won't be a flop and Google will keep it, but the price point was set too high. I don't think the phone is a total bust, but I do think with 99% certainty that this was priced too high to be competitive........Google just doesn't know it yet
Google right now can't even manage a proper messenger app (messenger, hangouts, allo.....seriously which one am I supposed to use Google ?), canceled Project Ara, canceled Google Glass, etc.......there's a lack of direction with the company needless to say.
Edit: Google search for Pixel compared to iPhone and Galaxy S7 (I left out Note 7 due to exploding battery interest) which has fallen off a cliff since the Pixel debut.

great post =) I agree with you

Well written. Very clear.
For me there is also a design problem.
The material design is too white and hurts my eyes especially in the evening. A dark theme is needed. So I am using Aquamail and not Gmail and apps with a dark theme. And black layers.
Maybe the Chinese will produce a better and cheaper phone. Who knows.
Maybe G is heading to a closed system ?

Or it could be the repeat of Google Pixel C with temporary "developer" discounts before the price goes back to list price. They don't seem to be too bothered about shifting stock.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using XDA-Developers mobile app

According to The Verge websites interview with Google's hardware chief, Google knows the first generation Pixel phone won't sale in volumes and expects to gain little market share, apparently there is long term strategy behind the scenes with the release of these first Pixel phones. Here's a quote from that article.
"We certainly arent going to have enormous volumes out of this product. This is very first innings for us." Googles metric of success for Pixel wont be whether it picks up significant market share, but whether it can garner customer satisfaction and form retail and carrier partnerships that Google can leverage for years to come."
http://www.theverge.com/a/google-pixel-phone-new-hardware-interview-2016
As for the cancellation of Google Glass and other Google hardware, that was done by the recently hired Google hardware chief so he could bring all the hardware teams together to focus on same objectives, so it appears Google now has a sense of direction, thanks to this new hardware chief aka ex-Motorola president. Here's a quote from another interview, just for reference.
"When Osterloh, 44, came on board in mid-April, he brought Google hardware groups into one division, shuttering projects he didn't see contributing to Googles future. Now the engineers and designers from Google Glass, Chromecast and Pixel all work together. Keeping them separate, he says, made it hard to drive toward the goal of portfolio strategy and focus."
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-google-s-first-real-threat-to-apple-s-iphone

In order to gain customer satisfaction they need to have customers, and the feedback everywhere I look is that they've already caused dissatisfaction with their prices and therefore won't have a solid customer base - especially after alienating so many Nexus owners with the ludicrous six-week Nougat delay and the dropping of the Nexus line.

dahawthorne said:
In order to gain customer satisfaction they need to have customers, and the feedback everywhere I look is that they've already caused dissatisfaction with their prices and therefore won't have a solid customer base - especially after alienating so many Nexus owners with the ludicrous six-week Nougat delay and the dropping of the Nexus line.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As much as I love the Nexus and it's contributing users, they probably don't make up enough market share for Google to care. Most Nexus owners are phone enthusiasts, who make up a very small percentage of the smartphone market.
Some Pixel phones are already sold out in the Google Store, so people are buying them. It remains to be seen if it will be enough for their "Customer Satisfaction" goal but from their interview, they don't seem to feel the need to sell a whole lot in order to make that goal, at least initially.

mikeprius said:
I've been talking a lot with my friends about this who are also Android users. I know there are a lot of opinions about the Pixel, so I thought it would be interesting to make a thread to check back on in 6 months from launch to see how things panned out. At the end of the day either Google is correct with this phone, or the community was right in predicting the change. I figured 6 months is enough time to get the phone in the pipeline and where a price cut would be susceptible if one were to occur.
Here's my analysis:
Existing problems:
1. Pixel phone contains basic vanilla Android at the same price as an iPhone and Samsung with feature filled software skins.
This is called Bloat to me basic vanilla Android is a huge plus
2. Apple and Samsung both have established their product in the marketplace, unlike the Pixel. Samsung didn't get any real traction until the Galaxy S3/Note 3.........three generations in.....this is Pixel's first.
Even though Samsungs are some of the most bloated locked down devices and iPhones are not Android devices Google with Pixel branding I just a continuation. I do agree more Samsung Devices and iPhones will be sold but so what?
3. The biggest competitor (Galaxy/Note 7), both have expandable SD card storage and water resistance that the Pixel does not.
My new phone will have 128Gig do I really need more, unlimited cloud storage for photos will help too
4. Only exclusive on Verizon, which allows only a small population to get it subsidized. (Both Apple/Samsung sell contract subsidized phones for BOTH Verizon and Sprint which creates a lower barrier to entry).
I am not American but they do sell SIM unlocked devices in the States do they not?
5. Google assistant which is one of its selling points, I don't see a huge immediate use for it unlike a better camera, or water resistance. There is a variant of this type of technology already out. It's called "SIRI" for iPhone and "S-Voice" for Samsung. It's been out for years and I don't know anyone personally who uses either on a daily basis. (or at all)
I owned 16 smartphones since the iPhone and not once did lack of water resistance bother me and I had zero devices with water damage. Google Assist can not see me using it often but only time will tell
6. There are no "frills" to this phone. I keep saying that, however; the typically buyer of iPhone/Samsung do not know anything about the internals or the hardware. (How else would Apple get people to buy $3,000 laptops ? It's not the hardware they are buying). The phone is just too plain for mainstream appeal. Next time you see someone with a Samsung ask them if their bootloader is locked........then ask it in Japanese....you'll get the same response.
First to get Android updates, first device with Qualcomm 821, first with official daydream support, and yes at least some say this will have the best camera
Pixel is taking aim at "mainstream", yet offering very little in terms of "frills" that mainstream typically likes yet charging flagship pricing. There is already a significant conflict in this strategy.
Why do you think they are gearing this for the mainstream, they never had in the past?
It's obvious based on the chart I uploaded Google's competency is not hardware unlike Apple......which would explain a lot. While I love Android, it's a small revenue of their overall revenue. Most likely, they are looking to diversify from just search and add to the bottom line as well from the smartphone market. It's very bold to try and compete against Apple that gets 53% of their overall revenue from iPhone alone, when Google has very little experience in that area (hardware).
Google builds nothing they are contracting HTC to build the Pixel, Pixel XL. Nobody expects them every to sell more of the current Pixel phones than Apple sells
Prediction:
In 6 months (or less), the Pixel phones will get price cuts to the same price as the 5x ($379) and 6p ($499). The phone won't be a flop and Google will keep it, but the price point was set too high. I don't think the phone is a total bust, but I do think with 99% certainty that this was priced too high to be competitive........Google just doesn't know it yet
Google right now can't even manage a proper messenger app (messenger, hangouts, allo.....seriously which one am I supposed to use Google ?), canceled Project Ara, canceled Google Glass, etc.......there's a lack of direction with the company needless to say.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Who knows about the price I do know the 32 Gig Nexus 6p was selling for $600 Canadian (I do not know what American pay) and in 6 months I can not see Google pricing the Pixel XL 32Gig lower. Sell more than Samsung and Apple no not believes this will every happen but different people by Samsung and Apple. People that generally never visit XDA and they are happy with whatever bloat Samsung and Apple gives them.

Maybe they are trying to create the equivalent of surface devices like Microsoft? I have no clue how that helps either of the companies. Maybe the idea is to just create a premium brand Google running Android even if every device sold loses money. Kind of like what Acura has to do with the NSX. It's an attempt to push the brand into a premium device discussion.
However, I definitely don't see anything that premium in the device. I don't see anything that premium in an iPhone either except that the lemmings have decided it is a premium product so like the unreliable Mercedes Benz cars out there, they retain resale value. At some point it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
To achieve a perception of being a premium product like Apple products, Google probably has to fire most of the tech guys running the hardware division and hire a real marketing team. The Oct 4 presentation was astonishingly lackluster. Same amount of glamour as a BlackBerry presentation. Bunch of geeks thinking just because they have a search engine cash cow, they must know everything else there is to know about the business world.
Honestly what the Nexus/pixel and allo/duo/messenger/hangouts mess should teach us is that these guys like going back to the drawing board way too often. This is not a mature company and will abandon loyal customers without hesitation if someone decides that's the cool thing to do. Project Fi customers, you will be next.
So in a nutshell don't over analyze Google, it's just a bunch of high school kids doing experiments in a Chemistry Lab. At some point there will be purple foam and a few explosions.
And there is no point hitching yourself to this wagon. Don't buy anything Google tries to market as premium. They don't have the discipline to maintain a message. Eventually everything they sell will be priced like a commodity.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using XDA-Developers mobile app

might want to modify the thread title's date. It's currently "10/5/16-4/5/16"; I'm pretty sure you meant "10/5/16-4/5/17"

First device with SD821? Not.

Google/Nexus phones were successful, because they targeted a specific niche that no one else did; devs/enthusiasts/folks who wanted to tinker and modify their phones completely and without restrictions.
Pixel phones have NOTHING that is "niche" driven; they are just like Apple/Samsung/who ever, with nothing really unique(S Pen, etc) to attract anyone really..
Sure, they will get the curious newbie/Iphone/Samsung lovers, but, those folks already have alot of choices, and those choices have alot more "features" that those folks want.
So, I cant fathom how this device will be anything more than a novelty, especially at that ridiculous price point..

mikeprius said:
I've been talking a lot with my friends about this who are also Android users. I know there are a lot of opinions about the Pixel, so I thought it would be interesting to make a thread to check back on in 6 months from launch to see how things panned out. At the end of the day either Google is correct with this phone, or the community was right in predicting the change. I figured 6 months is enough time to get the phone in the pipeline and where a price cut would be susceptible if one were to occur.
Yadda, yadda, yadda............................................[emoji23]
.
Google right now can't even manage a proper messenger app (messenger, hangouts, allo.....seriously which one am I supposed to use Google ?), canceled Project Ara, canceled Google Glass, etc.......there's a lack of direction with the company needless to say.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Great post! Lots of info there. [SARCASM] You might have a bit too much time on your hands though. [emoji1] [/SARCASM]
khanam said:
Honestly what the Nexus/pixel and allo/duo/messenger/hangouts mess should teach us is that these guys like going back to the drawing board way too often. This is not a mature company and will abandon loyal customers without hesitation if someone decides that's the cool thing to do. Project Fi customers, you will be next.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
IMO, Nexus/Pixel is not a mess, they are simply trying to gain market share other than the developer/techie community. I would bet that they will end up partnering with all of the major carriers to sell the phones subsidized, Verizon just got the nod for release day because it is the biggest. The pixels will also come down in price from the play store as well.
As far as the Duo/allo/hangouts/messenger thing, from what I've been reading they are trying to market hangouts to the enterprise side of the mobile market. I never really used it for anything other than video calls now and again. Duo is much more convenient for video calls, although I wish they would have just incorporated it into the dialer kind of how FaceTime is on iphone. I don't know what to think about allo. It doesn't handle sms, and it doesn't do anything that other already established apps do as good or better.
I'm just going to wait it out to see if the price comes down, or if my carrier gets it. If not, oh well, I will explore other options at that time. After all I'm still paying for my N6 through January...
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

mikeprius said:
1. Pixel phone contains basic vanilla Android at the same price as an iPhone and Samsung with feature filled software skins.
2. Apple and Samsung both have established their product in the marketplace, unlike the Pixel. Samsung didn't get any real traction until the Galaxy S3/Note 3.........three generations in.....this is Pixel's first.
3. The biggest competitor (Galaxy/Note 7), both have expandable SD card storage and water resistance that the Pixel does not.
4. Only exclusive on Verizon, which allows only a small population to get it subsidized. (Both Apple/Samsung sell contract subsidized phones for BOTH Verizon and Sprint which creates a lower barrier to entry).
5. Google assistant which is one of its selling points, I don't see a huge immediate use for it unlike a better camera, or water resistance. There is a variant of this type of technology already out. It's called "SIRI" for iPhone and "S-Voice" for Samsung. It's been out for years and I don't know anyone personally who uses either on a daily basis. (or at all)
6. There are no "frills" to this phone. I keep saying that, however; the typically buyer of iPhone/Samsung do not know anything about the internals or the hardware. (How else would Apple get people to buy $3,000 laptops ? It's not the hardware they are buying). The phone is just too plain for mainstream appeal. Next time you see someone with a Samsung ask them if their bootloader is locked........then ask it in Japanese....you'll get the same response.
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1. If you asked a user what was the difference between Touchwiz and vanilla Android, until Material Design the only thing they said was: Samsung looks nicer. Because Holo was ugly. But Material design changed that, so now basic Android is not ugly anymore. As for the gimmicks, a casual user will only use a fraction of the TouchWiz "features", and a vanilla Android user will not be missing any of those "features".
Pixel ha nice round icons, and a praised camera. You can consider it sold.
2. From the above linked interview this is the first step to establish Pixel as a product for the masses and not just for the techies. The are planning to sell 3-4 million units (good look with that). But even that's at least one order or magnitude below of the quantity Samsung and Apple sell. Google never bragged how many units they sold, you can't find official statistics, but it's obviously "not a damn lot", that's for sure.
3. And the iPhone does not have an SD card slot. The Galaxy S6 was a mistake for Samsung in every aspect, because they took away three things in one step: SD card, removable battery and custom roms. So there was a huge uproar, much bigger if they only played with these feature one at a time.
I too prefer an SD card, coming from Samsung phones, it was given, yet after one year using a mere 32GB phone I still live. So it's not a make/brake condition for me when buying a new phone.
5. It's a gimmick like Samsung's air gestures, keep awake when reading, knock twice on top to scroll to the top. You use it once then forget it. I bet for a week or two everybody will play with the assistant then forget it.
Compared to that Google Now cards are very useful, I use the Time to work, Time home card every day, and it helps avoiding the construction that kills the city, and to decide when it's totally beyond reason to leave home.
6. There are no real "frills". There are only those that some marketing think tank succeeds in convincing you that you actually need it. The camera is a frill enough to sell it, so it's the speed. Having the hardware from the start Google could optimize it a little to be better than the other manufacturers.

It is a mess. I compare it to the failures Apple had right after the Lisa, nonsense sales prediction with a exorbitant price point.
They can partner with as many carriers as they want over there (America, the world isn't just that) or try to subsidise phones.
Worldwide subsidisation of phones is impractical. And outside America the prices are even worse.

Highway 55 said:
IMO, Nexus/Pixel is not a mess, they are simply trying to gain market share other than the developer/techie community. I would bet that they will end up partnering with all of the major carriers to sell the phones subsidized, Verizon just got the nod for release day because it is the biggest. The pixels will also come down in price from the play store as well.
As far as the Duo/allo/hangouts/messenger thing, from what I've been reading they are trying to market hangouts to the enterprise side of the mobile market. I never really used it for anything other than video calls now and again. Duo is much more convenient for video calls, although I wish they would have just incorporated it into the dialer kind of how FaceTime is on iphone. I don't know what to think about allo. It doesn't handle sms, and it doesn't do anything that other already established apps do as good or better.
I'm just going to wait it out to see if the price comes down, or if my carrier gets it. If not, oh well, I will explore other options at that time. After all I'm still paying for my N6 through January...
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
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I am not sure why they abandoned hangouts for consumers - it was quite an all encompassing product for most of us between everything it handled - it just needed some tightening and polish but we finally had SMS, Voicemail, Video calling, IM, IP Calling all in 1. Now i have too many apps - when i instead want to simplify my life. No one likes to have something they were finding useful suddenly lose features - that just reeks of big brotherism - someone else deciding whats best for me instead of considering my own inputs.
On the pixel/nexus thing though - the way they should have done it is kept the nexus line alive and added a pixel or 2 phones with slightly more premium features but at a slightly higher price, then next generation a little higher price and so on.
That would have given all of us time to adjust and experiment. You do not just increase prices and abandon the nexus line without warning. That feels like them deciding what is best for us - like apple does. Give consumers choice, price products appropriately and allow them to cross bridges on price, features etc.
This abandoning nexus and replacing it with a non vanilla high priced pixel move is too sudden. That is why it feels like they do not listen to consumers and instead impose their vision on us. Who would like that? I chose to abandon iOS to have freedom - but the more they take those away from me - the more i look at Google and say, well this is not what i wanted. Locked bootloaders - does that not go against the very foundation of Android?
Another point - this AI push through Allo/Assistant is slowly going to convert you into a data contribution toward an engine - do you actually need to pay extra to lose your privacy - should that not happen in such a way that you get a discount on other products (i.e. your phone for example) which act as the conduit for your revealing your choices to the central database/skynet?

unfortunately, the mopes who sit in the production/sales meeting, only care about looking good to their bosses/making their bosses look good, and raise profits for shareholders..
They talk about how much Apple/Samsung charge for their phones, and sell 20 times more than Google does, so they figure, hey, lets just copy their business model, and we will look like heros.
Customers needs/wants get pushed to the back of the list, and market share/greater profits are all that matters..
And yeah, it sucks that we can now pay more for another "me too" phone, and, at the same time, surrender even more of our privacy, while paying through the nose for another Apple Clone..
No thanks, never a Pixel phone for me, at ANY price..

mixedguy said:
As much as I love the Nexus and it's contributing users, they probably don't make up enough market share for Google to care. Most Nexus owners are phone enthusiasts, who make up a very small percentage of the smartphone market.
Some Pixel phones are already sold out in the Google Store, so people are buying them. It remains to be seen if it will be enough for their "Customer Satisfaction" goal but from their interview, they don't seem to feel the need to sell a whole lot in order to make that goal, at least initially.
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Nexus no..it's a small segment. Android as a whole for Google is a very small amount of their revenue. Clearly the release of the Pixel is designed to make it a more considerable source of revenue for Google. They are not very diversified at the moment. All their money is in search.
AstroDigital said:
Who knows about the price I do know the 32 Gig Nexus 6p was selling for $600 Canadian (I do not know what American pay) and in 6 months I can not see Google pricing the Pixel XL 32Gig lower. Sell more than Samsung and Apple no not believes this will every happen but different people by Samsung and Apple. People that generally never visit XDA and they are happy with whatever bloat Samsung and Apple gives them.
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The United States there are 4 primary carriers (there are others, but the big 4 are AT&T, Sprint, Verizon, and T-Mobile). Before all 4 carriers did this, but 2 still do and that is offer 24 month contracts to be signed for a subsidized phone. So for example a $800 iPhone can be bought at Verizon or Sprint for $200-$300 depending on the model, current or past, etc, etc. That's how iPhone was able to be made available in mass. There's no way the people in the US could buy these phones outright at their current cost in large populations. It's outside many people's affordability.
All these products full price are out of the affordability for nearly everyone, so either they use the contract or use payments. With exclusive Verizon, everyone will do payments or buy outright (smaller population)......many people still use the contract that I know, taking this off the table for one carrier reduces accessibility.
Also, 2 of the 4 carriers in the US are CMDA technology not GSM so unlocked phones are limited. My carrier is CMDA so I cannot buy Xperia, One plus 3, or Axon 7. If I could, I'd have bought the One plus 3. Instead I'm stuck with the Nexus or some "whitelisted" device.

istperson said:
1. If you asked a user what was the difference between Touchwiz and vanilla Android, until Material Design the only thing they said was: Samsung looks nicer. Because Holo was ugly. But Material design changed that, so now basic Android is not ugly anymore. As for the gimmicks, a casual user will only use a fraction of the TouchWiz "features", and a vanilla Android user will not be missing any of those "features".
Pixel ha nice round icons, and a praised camera. You can consider it sold.
2. From the above linked interview this is the first step to establish Pixel as a product for the masses and not just for the techies. The are planning to sell 3-4 million units (good look with that). But even that's at least one order or magnitude below of the quantity Samsung and Apple sell. Google never bragged how many units they sold, you can't find official statistics, but it's obviously "not a damn lot", that's for sure.
3. And the iPhone does not have an SD card slot. The Galaxy S6 was a mistake for Samsung in every aspect, because they took away three things in one step: SD card, removable battery and custom roms. So there was a huge uproar, much bigger if they only played with these feature one at a time.
I too prefer an SD card, coming from Samsung phones, it was given, yet after one year using a mere 32GB phone I still live. So it's not a make/brake condition for me when buying a new phone.
5. It's a gimmick like Samsung's air gestures, keep awake when reading, knock twice on top to scroll to the top. You use it once then forget it. I bet for a week or two everybody will play with the assistant then forget it.
Compared to that Google Now cards are very useful, I use the Time to work, Time home card every day, and it helps avoiding the construction that kills the city, and to decide when it's totally beyond reason to leave home.
6. There are no real "frills". There are only those that some marketing think tank succeeds in convincing you that you actually need it. The camera is a frill enough to sell it, so it's the speed. Having the hardware from the start Google could optimize it a little to be better than the other manufacturers.
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While I can laugh at most people who become enamored with gimmicks, that's what sells. The stupid air gestures, and whatever toggles Samsung has that people flock to. They have no idea what chip is in their phone. Same goes for iPhone.
Everything else you are saying are your own personal preferences, not what mainstream people want. Majority of society is easily distracted by shiny gimmicks, engages in herd mentality buying decisions, and want instant gratification........these people are not "astute buyers" by any means, but they are the people who open their wallets and purses to buy these products.............it's pathetic but that's how the market is. Samsung and iPhone meet all these "needs". Pixel does not.

mixedguy said:
According to The Verge websites interview with Google's hardware chief, Google knows the first generation Pixel phone won't sale in volumes and expects to gain little market share, apparently there is long term strategy behind the scenes with the release of these first Pixel phones. Here's a quote from that article.
"We certainly arent going to have enormous volumes out of this product. This is very first innings for us." Googles metric of success for Pixel wont be whether it picks up significant market share, but whether it can garner customer satisfaction and form retail and carrier partnerships that Google can leverage for years to come."
http://www.theverge.com/a/google-pixel-phone-new-hardware-interview-2016
As for the cancellation of Google Glass and other Google hardware, that was done by the recently hired Google hardware chief so he could bring all the hardware teams together to focus on same objectives, so it appears Google now has a sense of direction, thanks to this new hardware chief aka ex-Motorola president. Here's a quote from another interview, just for reference.
"When Osterloh, 44, came on board in mid-April, he brought Google hardware groups into one division, shuttering projects he didn't see contributing to Googles future. Now the engineers and designers from Google Glass, Chromecast and Pixel all work together. Keeping them separate, he says, made it hard to drive toward the goal of portfolio strategy and focus."
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-google-s-first-real-threat-to-apple-s-iphone
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The Google glass and other hardware that they were experimenting with does make sense b/c it was untested and they were looking at pioneering a new potential product. There's no existing prior benchmark. That has more leeway including cancellation which I understand. I think long-term it is a good idea Google has more control over the hardware and not just software because there has been too much fragmentation across the board in devices and with other Google products.
With that said, smartphones have been out for many years now, with the saturation really beginning to take hold in 2009 and forward (where more and more people were rapidly buying smartphones). There's enough data they could have made a more intelligent analysis on how to price the product (which I suspect is way too high).