Related
Here's what I think might happen:
Carriers are going to create a study that shows that they are losing revenues because some people are abusing their network bandwidth, and that this adversely affects their normal users.
Carriers will associate the small percentage of these bandwidth hogs to users using tethering without paying for a tethering plan. Carriers will narrow the list down to rooted users who are tethering. They will be able to identify if a phone is rooted. They will have a list of rooted bandwidth hogs that they will present in court.
If list is small, they will go after those rooted users. If list is large, they will try to identify the ringleader(s) who facilitate rooting.
Easy to identify the ringleaders: they post pro-rooting messages all over the place, and tweet more than any bird and have many twitter followers.
Carriers will use their legal muscle to force ringleaders to cease and desist. Ringleaders will not have financial resources to fight Carriers, because in this country, he who can afford the most justice will usually prevail. Hopefully, ringleaders don't work for anyone who is affiliated with Carriers in any way, or ringleader's job (and income) is in immediate jeopardy. After costs from legal confrontation, ringleaders may not have enough money to even afford to buy a USB cable anymore let alone get a new phone and try to root it...
So, Carriers will have won.
Just one scenario, and my $0.02...
Sent from my unrooted DroidX using XDA App
I can't really envision carriers actually taking anyone to court over this, what I think could happen to those that abuse tethering is that the carrier will just start charging them for a tethering plan. Just my $.02, I really don't know how big of an issue it is to carriers although Verizon did ban tethering apps from the market..
Sent from my ADR6300 using XDA App
Well, I agree with the pay more possibility. For one thing, rooting has been ruled as perfectly legal. Can't go after rooters.
Sent from my cm7 running, obviously rooted, SGH-I897 using XDA App
jermyer said:
Well, I agree with the pay more possibility. For one thing, rooting has been ruled as perfectly legal. Can't go after rooters.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Could this case have set a precedent? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hotz
Sent from my unrooted DroidX using XDA App
If you're referring to the PS3 lawsuit, then no. The DMCA now has an explicit exception for mobile phones. The PS3 lawsuit was because Sony said the exploit would spread piracy.
I'm not sure if anyone has seen this but I found it pretty cool that they used a picture of our trusty OG incredible...
http://www.longisland.com/news/01-27-13/unlocking-smarthphones-now-illegal.html
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda premium
RepeatUntilTheEnd said:
I'm not sure if anyone has seen this but I found it pretty cool that they used a picture of our trusty OG incredible...
http://www.longisland.com/news/01-27-13/unlocking-smarthphones-now-illegal.html
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda premium
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Click to collapse
Damn government, always screwing the little guy. Oh well its not like its going to stop people from doing it anyways. I have been seriously thinking of switching my service to straight talk, and this news changes nothing. Tell them to come get me.
RepeatUntilTheEnd said:
I'm not sure if anyone has seen this but I found it pretty cool that they used a picture of our trusty OG incredible...
http://www.longisland.com/news/01-27-13/unlocking-smarthphones-now-illegal.html
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know why they picked a CDMA phone for the picture when usually only GSM phones are even unlockable for carriers. Technically flashing an inc on straight talk is not unlocking it.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
tiny4579 said:
I don't know why they picked a CDMA phone for the picture when usually only GSM phones are even unlockable for carriers. Technically flashing an inc on straight talk is not unlocking it.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
None of the articles I've read mention the N4, or how comparable the price is to phones on contract. I guess I can't really talk, since I'm still with big red.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda premium
The Nexus 4 comes unlocked. I guess it's above the law then.
Sent from my Nexus 4 using xda app-developers app
Ah yes, leave it to the government to try to forbid people from messing with the device that they paid for. Well, it's not as if it'll stop anything whatsoever.
This is kind of disturbing if you ask me...
Sent from my ADR6300 using xda app-developers app
One good thing is that the law only applies to phones purchased after the law goes into affect - so anything before that is fine to unlock.
Sent from my ADR6300 using xda app-developers app
scals37 said:
This is kind of disturbing if you ask me...
Sent from my ADR6300 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Digital Millennium Copyright Act, the gift that keeps on giving to lawyers and corporati.
Incidentally, a few clarifications. I see people making the same wrong assumptions about this ruling again and again.
1.) Unlocking your phone is not illegal. What IS illegal is for you, the end-consumer, to unlock or otherwise edit the firmware/OS installed on the phone from the factory. This means that we, the citizenry of XDA and similar forums, are guilty of violations of the DMCA, because the carriers (Sprint, ATT, VZW, etc) actually hold the copyrights to the firmware's installed on the phone.
1a.) The carriers, however, CAN unlock the phone for you, legally. Most of the carriers have come forward and said that they will still unlock devices so long as you have met your original contract obligations. Now, this is great if you've bought a new device. Unfortunately, it means any Non-pay or otherwise blacklisted phone on Craigslist or ebay is still screwed.
1b.) New, Unlocked devices such as Nexus, Galaxy, and Incredible International are still, and will always remain, legally unlocked. The firmware found on these devices is owned by Google or by the device's original manufacture, and they are unlikely to proactively start locking such devices just to lock out the reseller community.
2.) Any device purchased or unlocked prior to January 26, 2013 can still be legally unlocked and used on any compatible network.
2a.) Carriers won't retroactively kick your device off of their network if it is illegally unlocked. Nor can they impose any special usage fines or taxes of utilizing an unlocked device. A "locked" cellphone is one which has been firmware coded to its own carrier's network.
2b.) The only person or group who can take action against you for illegally unlocking your phone is the Librarian of Congress (who made this ruling and is the conservator of DMCA exception law) or the carrier who originally sold the device to you, as they are the ones holding the copyrights to the firmware. They cannot, generally, tell some other network to not host your device. Obviously they can ASK a competitor not to host your unlocked device, but they can't actually stop them doing so.
2c.) The original vendor of the phone (Sprint, ATT, VZW, etc) can, however, sue you under the DMCA for violating their copyrights. This is identical to lawsuits used to penalize movie and music downloaders. However, since phone unlocks are generally not "shared" in the same way that music, movie, and game downloads are, an aggressive lawsuit by a patent troll or copyright bully holds little potential profit because they'd only be able to claim a single violation, not the sort of perpetual resharing that goes on with torrent users.
3.) While jailbreaking/unlocking/rooting a phone is illegal now, re-romming a phone is still a grey area. IE, completely replacing the firmware on your phone with a homebrew is not illegal in the same way that a simple unlock or jailbreak code is. Since you're not technically changing someone else's copyright protected software so much as simply deleting and replacing it.
3a.) Unfortunately, because most custom roms are still based in one form or another on the factory rom, you MIGHT still be sued unless, as in the case of older devices like the DINC, all original drivers and firmware's have been open-sourced to the community. It's unlikely that HTC would go after someone unlocking an Incredible series phone since you can legally root most HTC devices from their website; but other carriers and manufacturer's may not take the same view in the future.
There is also a division between hardware manufacturer's and carriers. Carriers lobbied long and hard FOR this ruling, because it is in their best interest to keep you chained to them for as long as possible, and a person who just spent several hundred dollars on a device is unlikely to be willing to simply ****can that device at the end of two years in order to move to another carrier and repeat the expensive process with a new device (unless you own an apple product, in which you're already indoctrinated to all of this ). Sell such a device, yes; dispose of it, no. So having a locked device makes you stickier since you'll use it for longer before parting with it, and if you can only use it legally on their network, then you are stuck with them since you can't resell/unlock it to recoup even part of your investment as you can currently by simply unlocking it or having a reseller do it for you.
Device manufacturers, on the other hand, have a vested interest in keeping their units in use as long as possible, regardless of what carrier it is operating on. Having a unit of hardware able to be reused on multiple carriers breeds customer loyalty to the hardware manufacturer in the same way a reliable car or home appliance does, and increasingly people are seeking out devices based not on the name of the carrier but the name of the phone. Already it's a lot less common to ask who a carrier is than what a phone is; particularly when the same device is available on multiple competing networks.
The best we can hope for is that this will all come to a head in 2 years as the first generation of legally locked phones start coming up for resale and people find themselves face with either throwing them away, sticking with their current carrier, or breaking the law.
What I find curious...
In every article and argument I have read; the carriers framed the argument around "Unlocking / Rooting so we can change service providers." If I were a phone carrier, I wouldn't want my customers to be able to leave either. Sounds reasonable on the surface.
However....I think most of us would agree, that the vast majority do NOT unlock and root for the sake of changing carriers. In fact that argument is already very weak and flawed,
With two standards (GSM vs CDMA), some technical differences in phone models that prevent differing networks from connecting with the devices, and only a handful of carriers....you don't have a lot of options...so not much point.
The phone carriers can refuse service to devices they didn't sell and were in no way required to do so, however it would be in their long-term interest.
The steep financial penalty for leaving a carrier before the contract expires easily covers the "subsidy" at the time of purchase.
Basically....rooting just to switch carriers doesn't make sense
What do we unlock/root for?
Control of our devices.
Control of our privacy and data.
"Fixing" the bugs ( ask me about the ASUS Transformer ICS updates...HA!!!)
Excessive bloatware, like three book reading apps on my tablet...(seriously)
Customizing the device to our needs
...the list is long and the consumers don't have a voice in these issues.. Worse yet to my opinion, this legal ruling actually cripples the end user. Without root access the task of managing and monitor apps, permissions, data, etc has more challenges and limitations , especially without any Android "stock" apps for the purpose. I mean, they didn't even make a file manager. I'll spare you all my usual Google rant. Just imagine what the teaming millions of non-tech, non-xda have to live with....when was the last time you had to work with a device without Titanium Backup, Root Explorer and such? (scares me)
Sorry, my point is...they used a bogus argument to get what they wanted, with them in control of our property and data.
Final thought..how long do you think it will take before we see the first "Price gouging/manipulation" lawsuits against the carriers? They price an unlocked phone so high that no one purchases them. I get it, why pay $650 for a phone with no contract, but you pay the same monthly charges.....when you can get one for $50 and two years of contract? Also, for the record, I do believe that the legality of unlocking/rooting only applies to carrier subsidized devices made and purchased after the above date, and not ones sold at full retail, purposefully unlocked. I'm no expert, but just based on the price differences between 3g/4g and WiFi only tablets, you frakkin know the carriers are messing around with pricing.
WOW...sorry for being long-winded and thanks!
Seems the White House agrees that we should be able to unlock our phones.
http://gizmodo.com/5988388/white-house-you-should-be-able-to-unlock-your-phone-if-you-own-it
Hi guys, just saw this news concerning our U.S pals:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/01/the-most-ridiculous-law-of-2013-so-far-it-is-now-a-crime-to-unlock-your-smartphone/272552/
At least its not unlocking the bootloader that's illegal. You'll just have to be a bit more careful for your next phones dear Americans
There are an simple solution, use non carrier phones.
Galaxy powered by GM and Dorimanx.
Simple....but unlocked phones are sold at 1000%+ mark up to intentionally drive people to the carrier subsidized phones
Sent from my MB860 using xda app-developers app
Price
I wonder what this will do to the orice of unlocked phones on the internet, maybe we can benifit from price drops, what do u guys think?
For a short time I'm sure popular models that are already unlocked will sell at a premium used but since the tech moves so fast it won't be long before phones like the the Nexus 4 and newer cheap(er) pre-unlocked phones drive down that price.
Sent from my Nexus 7
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/make-unlocking-cell-phones-legal/1g9KhZG7
Check this link out to sign the petition and pass it on
lol, like people in America give a crap what the government says. I'm sure we can count on service providers to police the issue though.
I think I'll unlock one of my old crap phones just to make a point. XD, SCREW EM
Illegal to Unlock - Direct Action
Heard about the decision to allow AT&T, T-Mobile, Verizon, Sprint, etc. to hold your own cellular device hostage?
Here's a link: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2012-10-26/html/2012-26308.htm
Let's all write Jacqueline C. Charlesworth, Senior Counsel to the Register of Copyrights, Office of the Register of Copyrights, at [email protected] and/or Christopher S. Reed, Senior Advisor for Policy & Special Projects, Office of the Register of Copyrights, email at [email protected]; or call the U.S. Copyright Office by phone at 202-707-8350 just to tell them what we think of this decision.
Good luck Americans, just sharing. Just don't screw up some point in the future lol. Its still kinda new, they might go all Terminator on you guys for reasons yet unknown hahah
This is the same government that gave a company patents for a rectangular black phone and a rectangular white phone so nothing surprises me
isn't this only true for new phones? as in if you already unlocked it, it doesn't matter?
pinyata said:
isn't this only true for new phones? as in if you already unlocked it, it doesn't matter?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Correct. It only applies to phones purchased after the rule went into effect.
Come on guys move up to Canada it's not THAT cold here!
But being from the southeast, I'd really be confused by all of the 'eh' and references to hockey!
Besides, where would I get my sweet tea and grits? I get up past Tennessee and people look at me funny when I ask for sugar with my iced tea....
Inspiredwire said:
Correct. It only applies to phones purchased after the rule went into effect.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I may be wrong ( good chance I am) but I believe this is for new phones that are bought discounted for new contract or extension since in a way until that contract is up the carrier owns that phone. Just like you don't own your home until your mortgage is paid off. Not saying I agree with the new law in any way.
If the owner is willing, they're allowed to call up their carrier and ask for the unlock code. As long as the person you buy from doesn't care and has had the phone for a while, there's no problem.
I don't think it's illegal, but you will certainly avoid your warranty.
inarush said:
I don't think it's illegal, but you will certainly avoid your warranty.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think so too. Nobody will be punished for that. I guess the police have better things to do.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using xda app-developers app
I've downloaded so much music illegally so idgaf about how illegal it is unlock a phone. Done
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using xda app-developers app
severinca said:
I've downloaded so much music illegally so idgaf about how illegal it is unlock a phone. Done
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not exactly something to brag about...
I don't like the black and white color scheme. The phones are identical and yet one gets to keep the warranty. It doesn't make any sense to me.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
It's an unfair world we're living in.
Mastaking said:
I don't like the black and white color scheme. The phones are identical and yet one gets to keep the warranty. It doesn't make any sense to me.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Motorola needs to sell phones. That's what they do. To do that, they need to be friends with the carriers. Carriers don't want you unlocking your phone and uninstalling all the junk they put there. They make money from that junk. So you need to be discouraged from doing that.
Now, Motorola was actually nice enough to sell phones directly, outside of the carriers, to the general public. These phones are unlocked and easily rooted. That's great!
The cup is half full, not half empty.
maratd said:
Motorola needs to sell phones. That's what they do. To do that, they need to be friends with the carriers. Carriers don't want you unlocking your phone and uninstalling all the junk they put there. They make money from that junk. So you need to be discouraged from doing that.
Now, Motorola was actually nice enough to sell phones directly, outside of the carriers, to the general public. These phones are unlocked and easily rooted. That's great!
The cup is half full, not half empty.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I hear that and in a Macro way that does make sense, but when I think about it in a selfish Micro way I just can't help but feel that it doesn't make any sense that they would let you keep your warranty if it has the words Developers Edition on your phone.
Mastaking said:
I hear that and in a Macro way that does make sense, but when I think about it in a selfish Micro way I just can't help but feel that it doesn't make any sense that they would let you keep your warranty if it has the words Developers Edition on your phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm guessing it's largely about the subsidy. If the carrier is footing the bill for your phone up front, they don't want you running out and doing something they might have to support, thus costing them twice. It's probably easier to void the warranty for all subsidized versions rather than keeping track of who paid full price and who took a subsidy.
binary visions said:
I'm guessing it's largely about the subsidy. If the carrier is footing the bill for your phone up front, they don't want you running out and doing something they might have to support, thus costing them twice. It's probably easier to void the warranty for all subsidized versions rather than keeping track of who paid full price and who took a subsidy.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's a very good point.
EDIT: Yes, you do keep the warranty. Sorry for the misinformation below (retained so that the following replies continue to make sense)
You actually DON'T keep warranty with the Dev Ed if you unlock the bootloader.
There's a statement in the box (just got my VZW Moto X DE yesterday) that states as soon as you unlock, you void the warranty and are on your own.
Thus, the only difference is that Motorola willingly gives DE owners the unlock code without having to surreptitiously hack the phone.
I was under the initial impression that you keep warranty. But you do not. Despite whatever the Moto website says.
rfulcher said:
You actually DON'T keep warranty with the Dev Ed if you unlock the bootloader.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You do, in fact, keep the warranty. I think it's funny that you say "despite what Moto says" - Moto provides the warranty. Why is what they say not valid?
http://motorola-blog.blogspot.com/2013/11/you-asked-we-listened-announcing.html
Requesting an unlock code will no longer void the device’s warranty
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Click to collapse
rfulcher said:
You actually DON'T keep warranty with the Dev Ed if you unlock the bootloader.
There's a statement in the box (just got my VZW Moto X DE yesterday) that states as soon as you unlock, you void the warranty and are on your own.
Thus, the only difference is that Motorola willingly gives DE owners the unlock code without having to surreptitiously hack the phone.
I was under the initial impression that you keep warranty. But you do not. Despite whatever the Moto website says.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Odds are, the retail packaging was never updated when they made their change.
imnuts said:
Odds are, the retail packaging was never updated when they made their change.
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Click to collapse
Apparently, that is the case. Mea culpa.
"Despite what Motorola says" I stated because one of the reasons I bought the DE was that I was under the impression that the warranty would be preserved. Then, opening the box and seeing that cautionary pamphlet, I (wrongly) assumed that I had misinterpreted Motorola's website claims regarding the DE. What I didn't do was go back and confirm via Motorola's website.
Sorry for any confusion, and thanks to binary visions and imnuts for the correction!
The pamphlet is being edited to display the same language we have on the web site on new units. Sorry your unit did not come with an updated psmphlet but the web site language and new legal agreement takes precedence.
Sent from my XT1058 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Plug phone in, run a couple commands, copy key, goto Motorola's official unlock site, paste code, get email from Motorola, copy another code in that email. Run command. Profit. I think that is pretty much how you unlock the carrier versions. It's not any having and is an official procedure from Motorola. What's the difference for the DE versions?
Sent from my XT1056 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
dobbs3x said:
Plug phone in, run a couple commands, copy key, goto Motorola's official unlock site, paste code, get email from Motorola, copy another code in that email. Run command. Profit. I think that is pretty much how you unlock the carrier versions. It's not any having and is an official procedure from Motorola. What's the difference for the DE versions?
Sent from my XT1056 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A) not all the carrier versions can be unlocked, and
B) only the DE versions maintain their warranty after unlocking, as already stated above
Don't blame Motorola. Carriers require locked bootloaders. When you get unlocked phones usually you can do whatever you want to it. The warranty thing is a nice addition but I've never broken a phone to the point where I couldn't fix it myself. Personally I don't see an issue with the colors the warranty is just a bonus.
Sent from my Nexus 5
We're talking about the carrier variants that can be unlocked. We already know why AT&T and Verizon variants can't be unlocked, and that's completely irrelevant to this thread.
freak4dell said:
We're talking about the carrier variants that can be unlocked. We already know why AT&T and Verizon variants can't be unlocked, and that's completely irrelevant to this thread.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same premise applies in the poster's comments above you. The carrier doesn't want to encourage this behavior so while they don't stop you from unlocking, they don't want to cover the related warranty issues.
Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
I can't really see how that is true since t mobile and sprint both have and embrace the nexus program. In fact the t mobile moto x is the XT1053... Same exact phone as the gsm Dev edition save for the words on the back. Hell, if woven white was available through moto maker, I could go build a woven white back and black front phone and have the words "Developer Edition" put on the back and it would simply be the exact same.
I don't really understand the warranty thing with t mobile since a 32gb moto maker x is the exact same price and exact same model with the same process for unlocking. For Verizon I get it because they already have a locked phone policy, but t mobile doesn't. In fact, T-Mobile says they carry the phone but it isn't a T-Mobile branded phone (which is why they don't have Wi-Fi calling on it).
As well, functionality wise, if you want a nice looking unlocked moto x for at&t, you moto make a t mobile version and unlock it.
At least Motorola has a no questions asked return policy. I unlocked mine and was able to return it. Of course I flashed back to stock (huge pain compared to normal fastboot) and relocked it prior to returning. One thing they don't mention is they pay for return shipping, contrary to their website.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
arcanexvi said:
Same premise applies in the poster's comments above you. The carrier doesn't want to encourage this behavior so while they don't stop you from unlocking, they don't want to cover the related warranty issues.
Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The carrier has no say in a manufacturer's warranty, especially when the carrier doesn't even sell the phone.
freak4dell said:
The carrier has no say in a manufacturer's warranty, especially when the carrier doesn't even sell the phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It does as far as warranty facilitation. You will no longer be able to walk into your carrier store for support. You'd need to work with Motorola directly. While you may be covered with Moto, your carrier isn't obligated to assist you.
Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
arcanexvi said:
It does as far as warranty facilitation. You will no longer be able to walk into your carrier store for support. You'd need to work with Motorola directly. While you may be covered with Moto, your carrier isn't obligated to assist you.
Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
With the US XT1053, you were never able to walk into a carrier store in the first place. T-Mobile does not sell this phone. They will not support it if you walk into a store, regardless of whether you are unlocked or not. And before somebody tries to say that it's still carrier-associated because they have the carrier name on the website when you order, well, so does the Verizon Dev Edition. The warranty is still valid on that when unlocking. Verizon won't help you with that, either, but Motorola will. That's what needs to happen with the T-Mobile X as well.
Sprint is slightly different, but as mentioned, they sell the Nexus phones in their store, which are also not warranty-voided if unlocked. I'm pretty sure they could manage to figure out how to handle the X, too.
Gonna try and make this short and try and not get attacked or flamed.
I've done retail and sales, managed many big retail stores and even been a district manager.
In my business, you buy something, you own it, it's yours to do whatever you want. Also, there is a return policy and depending on the issue policy can be bent in a put out the fire situation.
The phone business is not like this and I don't understand. If I buy a phone, it is mine, I own therefore why couldn't I do what I wanted. I should be able to wipe my butt with it if I wanted to.
So why do carriers treat it differently. They have the policy about rooting, so why not let the buyer do it, take the risk, and just enforce the policy.
Especially considering we buy it, it's ours and we should be able to do what we want with things we own. Just my opinion because it is retail sales which I know like the back of my hand, but the mobile side of it baffles me.
Anybody an employee or former employee who can explain why mobile phones is one of the only things you can buy but never feel like you completely own it.
Just seems not right coming from years in retail with many many companies.
The problem lies in the warranty and being able to take advantages of services without paying.
Instance 1: A noob roots their phone, bricks it, and doesn't know how to get it back to normal. They call Verizon and say their phone just died. Verizon has to spend time and money sending a replacement.
Instance 2: We have unlimited. We root and unlock free tethering. They lose on "potential" revenues. (Although we do have foxfi on the play store, but its still slow as it goes through a vpn.
I do agree that we should have full control of our devices though. Unfortunately, we can only make changes with out dollars.
Yeah I can see that but as far as warranty they will check for root so that shouldn't be a factor. I'm sure at this point that is the first thing they check.
They have to know that tethering can be exploited either way.
And my understanding is they don't care and don't make money on the phones but their service charges.
I would encourage people to root if I were them because if they did it right they would make more profit because they wouldn't have to spend money to fix it forcing buyers to have no choice but buy another.
I know it will not change but as a person familiar with making money in retail they could increase revenu .
Not counting with them having for the most part the best service and networks thousands of people would flock there to get an unlocked verizon phone.
Busines wise, if done properly they would make a killing changing their stance
sprintuser1977 said:
Yeah I can see that but as far as warranty they will check for root so that shouldn't be a factor. I'm sure at this point that is the first thing they check.
They have to know that tethering can be exploited either way.
And my understanding is they don't care and don't make money on the phones but their service charges.
I would encourage people to root if I were them because if they did it right they would make more profit because they wouldn't have to spend money to fix it forcing buyers to have no choice but buy another.
I know it will not change but as a person familiar with making money in retail they could increase revenu .
Not counting with them having for the most part the best service and networks thousands of people would flock there to get an unlocked verizon phone.
Busines wise, if done properly they would make a killing changing their stance
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Although i agree with everything that was said by you, the people calling the shots are probably way too old to understand that there's always a way through everything (for example root in order to get free hot spot working). The other problem is i would assume is that they can't always prove a phone was rooted. Let's say someone was trying to flash a custom rom and accidentally flashed the system leaving only the boot recovery present with no OS and they didn't know how to Odin back to stock, Verizon can't prove that the phone was rooted. For all they know maybe the user was performing an update and something happened.
Whatever the case... I wish we had full access over our devices :crying:
sprintuser1977 said:
Gonna try and make this short and try and not get attacked or flamed.
I've done retail and sales, managed many big retail stores and even been a district manager.
In my business, you buy something, you own it, it's yours to do whatever you want. Also, there is a return policy and depending on the issue policy can be bent in a put out the fire situation.
The phone business is not like this and I don't understand. If I buy a phone, it is mine, I own therefore why couldn't I do what I wanted. I should be able to wipe my butt with it if I wanted to.
So why do carriers treat it differently. They have the policy about rooting, so why not let the buyer do it, take the risk, and just enforce the policy.
Especially considering we buy it, it's ours and we should be able to do what we want with things we own. Just my opinion because it is retail sales which I know like the back of my hand, but the mobile side of it baffles me.
Anybody an employee or former employee who can explain why mobile phones is one of the only things you can buy but never feel like you completely own it.
Just seems not right coming from years in retail with many many companies.
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You can do what you want with it...but you bought a device that is locked down to increase sales to the Enterprise and Military community. You have the option of buying a developer's edition. You can certainly wipe your butt with it as you mentioned. As for your inability to root it...that is not the carrier telling you what you can't do with it...that comes in voiding the warranty...but look at it as buying a television and not being able to make a transmitter out of it. Of course you could...but it would require a lot of work and knowledge and also void the warranty. Bootloaders have been broken before and root obtained...again...with a lot of work and knowledge. The device works as advertised when sold. If you choose to purchase a device from a carrier with a history of locking them down (S4, Note 3, S5 and now the S3 with it's updates) then you are choosing to support what they are selling. Now as it is a communications device and you are in the US, there are things you cannot do with it per Federal law as stated by the FCC. But that is a whole other can of worms.
dapimpinj said:
The problem lies in the warranty and being able to take advantages of services without paying.
Instance 1: A noob roots their phone, bricks it, and doesn't know how to get it back to normal. They call Verizon and say their phone just died. Verizon has to spend time and money sending a replacement.
Instance 2: We have unlimited. We root and unlock free tethering. They lose on "potential" revenues. (Although we do have foxfi on the play store, but its still slow as it goes through a vpn.
I do agree that we should have full control of our devices though. Unfortunately, we can only make changes with out dollars.
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Foxfi works pretty good for me. Going thru a vpn doesn't slow it down for me
my_handle said:
Foxfi works pretty good for me. Going thru a vpn doesn't slow it down for me
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Good to hear! It must have been my location. I get 5 bars of LTE at home. I'll try it there.
KennyG123 said:
You can do what you want with it...but you bought a device that is locked down to increase sales to the Enterprise and Military community. You have the option of buying a developer's edition. You can certainly wipe your butt with it as you mentioned. As for your inability to root it...that is not the carrier telling you what you can't do with it...that comes in voiding the warranty...but look at it as buying a television and not being able to make a transmitter out of it. Of course you could...but it would require a lot of work and knowledge and also void the warranty. Bootloaders have been broken before and root obtained...again...with a lot of work and knowledge. The device works as advertised when sold. If you choose to purchase a device from a carrier with a history of locking them down (S4, Note 3, S5 and now the S3 with it's updates) then you are choosing to support what they are selling. Now as it is a communications device and you are in the US, there are things you cannot do with it per Federal law as stated by the FCC. But that is a whole other can of worms.
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Please look up the Verizon Note 4 on Verizon, and show me where in describing the product it states the phone is locked and you can not edit certain things.
I may have missed it but I saw no where on the specifications or feature list where it says that? Only a person who is familiar with rooting or bootloaders and such would know.
As far as warranty, as I said, it's a policy and if I choose to break it that is my choice.
sprintuser1977 said:
Please look up the Verizon Note 4 on Verizon, and show me where in describing the product it states the phone is locked and you can not edit certain things.
I may have missed it but I saw no where on the specifications or feature list where it says that? Only a person who is familiar with rooting or bootloaders and such would know.
As far as warranty, as I said, it's a policy and if I choose to break it that is my choice.
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Not to sound obnoxious but please look up ANY phone and show me where it says that you can root it and it has an unlocked bootloader and you are welcome to change anything you want? You are not brand new...you know what Verizon has been doing for years. There is nothing stopping you from using the phone exactly as advertised in the manual and specifications. Rooting is not an approved use of the phone and offers an extreme security breach of the software..so why would any carrier endorse it or even need to mention if you could or couldn't. Anyone that has been around for more than a year, knows that is what the developer edition is for and should be grateful that Verizon even offers that option. Also knowing you are not brand new, you would know that less than 1% of Verizon customers even know what rooting is. You see the trend, you have choices yet you still chose to support Verizon.
The original point is being ignored.
Simply put if we buy something we should be able to do whatever we want with it.
All retail is like this except phones.
All the details and other miscellaneous stuff is besides the point.
I'm just saying if we own it, we should own it
sprintuser1977 said:
The original point is being ignored.
Simply put if we buy something we should be able to do whatever we want with it.
All retail is like this except phones.
All the details and other miscellaneous stuff is besides the point.
I'm just saying if we own it, we should own it
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Sorry, but I guess I am missing the point. What is it that you wish to do with this phone that you can do with say...a television, that is listed in the specifications and features of the product you purchased?
To think that executives of Verizon are oblivious to Rooting or custom roms, you are mistaken. Just because they are older does not mean they are dumb. Phones are locked down for one reason: reduce liability on Verizon.
---------- Post added at 07:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:46 PM ----------
KennyG123 said:
Sorry, but I guess I am missing the point. What is it that you wish to do with this phone that you can do with say...a television, that is listed in the specifications and features of the product you purchased?
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I like this. Phones are locked down to reduce liability and cost of fixing it. This is why companies like HTC will unlock your bootloader while voiding your warranty.
I can't explain it anymore simply, sorry. Here is how it could simply be done:
-I buy the phone
-I want to root the phone
-I call Verizon, tell them I want to root
-They inform me If I do, it voids the warranty and I'm out $700 if I break it
-Ok, i will take that risk
- Verizon notes the account of this, therefore no tricks on cheating the warranty policy and they unlock it
Obviously over simplified, but general idea is they should have a way For us to request it, Note it, and allow us to do it.
Anyway, regardless of how they do it I don't care, it's the fact you buy a 800 dollar phone, if I want to risk breaking it and losing $800, that should be OK as its my property.
Anyway, not going to try and get into a back and forth. I got people's take on it and that's good enough for me.
Thanks everyone for your input.
chriskader said:
To think that executives of Verizon are oblivious to Rooting or custom roms, you are mistaken. Just because they are older does not mean they are dumb. Phones are locked down for one reason: reduce liability on Verizon.
---------- Post added at 07:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:46 PM ----------
I like this. Phones are locked down to reduce liability and cost of fixing it. This is why companies like HTC will unlock your bootloader while voiding your warranty.
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No, Verizon chose to lock down the phones to get huge corporate and military contracts by showing their version of the phone is the most secure. Of course AT&T is also doing the same fighting for those contracts.
sprintuser1977 said:
I can't explain it anymore simply, sorry. Here is how it could simply be done:
-I buy the phone
-I want to root the phone
-I call Verizon, tell them I want to root
-They inform me If I do, it voids the warranty and I'm out $700 if I break it
-Ok, i will take that risk
- Verizon notes the account of this, therefore no tricks on cheating the warranty policy and they unlock it
Obviously over simplified, but general idea is they should have a way For us to request it, Note it, and allow us to do it.
Anyway, regardless of how they do it I don't care, it's the fact you buy a 800 dollar phone, if I want to risk breaking it and losing $800, that should be OK as its my property.
Anyway, not going to try and get into a back and forth. I got people's take on it and that's good enough for me.
Thanks everyone for your input.
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I understand and there is a thread in one of the Verizon Sammy phones...Note 3 I think...where a member actually discussed with Verizon executive services the possibility of the same thing HTC did (on other carriers since Verizon locked that door too). I believe the thread is "How much would you pay for unlocking the bootloader" or something like that. He was going to get an idea of how much people would pay for this code direct from Verizon. I think the majority was $25 atm. At least he was pitching the idea to Verizon and they were hearing him out. Perhaps more can do the same?
I was just trying to say that I did not understand how the inability to root would make you feel like the phone was not yours. The PS3 systems if you play online are locked down exactly the same...you jailbreak it and you cannot get on the Playstation network to play online. So it is not just cell phones that do not allow you to do more than the manufacturer promised. I also was stating that you can certainly root and unlock it...if you had the knowledge to do so. I think we just misunderstood each other.
No biggie. I can understand all points of view and in no way was I trying to disregard or disrespect yours.
If it came across that way I apologize.
This is my first verizon phone (it was my only option due to several reasons) and I am amazed at how adamantly opposed to unlocking phones they are.
I've rooted over a dozen phones and this is the first one that I would like to root but it's good enough that if I can't I still love it
sprintuser1977 said:
I can't explain it anymore simply, sorry. Here is how it could simply be done:
-I buy the phone
-I want to root the phone
-I call Verizon, tell them I want to root
-They inform me If I do, it voids the warranty and I'm out $700 if I break it
-Ok, i will take that risk
- Verizon notes the account of this, therefore no tricks on cheating the warranty policy and they unlock it
Obviously over simplified, but general idea is they should have a way For us to request it, Note it, and allow us to do it.
Anyway, regardless of how they do it I don't care, it's the fact you buy a 800 dollar phone, if I want to risk breaking it and losing $800, that should be OK as its my property.
Anyway, not going to try and get into a back and forth. I got people's take on it and that's good enough for me.
Thanks everyone for your input.
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Click to collapse
I could understand if you pay 800 but seriously of your gonna do that get dev edition as well most ppl get the phone subsidised for less then half of what the phone is woth off of contract so technically you don't own the phone as well you are right there is no where in the vzw policy that says rooting voids your warranty if you read all the rules but it is one of thoes unwritten policy's all companys go buy
jolly_roger_hook said:
I could understand if you pay 800 but seriously of your gonna do that get dev edition as well most ppl get the phone subsidised for less then half of what the phone is woth off of contract so technically you don't own the phone as well you are right there is no where in the vzw policy that says rooting voids your warranty if you read all the rules but it is one of thoes unwritten policy's all companys go buy
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That is one of the reasons also, the fact that many phones are subsidized through a carrier, and you really don't own them 100% unless you see the contract out to the end, or pay the ETF. I still agree that the customer should be able to buy out the contract, or void their warranty and accept liability themselves for the express purpose of obtaining an unlock code to root/ROM, etc... I think that Verizon may actually go this route some day, just not any time soon.
If I had the ability to not support Verizon and their tight locking policies, I would. But, like many other people, I'm in a region where the only reliable 4G LTE connection is Verizon and Verizon Alone. I had the unlocked Tmobile Note 3 on both Tmobile AND AT&T and my signal was horrible so I was basically forced into getting a Verizon phone for the stability.
I'd like to see the government step in and loosen the grip that carriers have on consumers, though that would mean the end of subsidized phone sales, and maybe the new edge, next programs as well. Tmobile has the right idea, but once they are the size of Verizon, I bet they tighten their rules too...
KennyG123 said:
No, Verizon chose to lock down the phones to get huge corporate and military contracts by showing their version of the phone is the most secure. Of course AT&T is also doing the same fighting for those contracts.
I understand and there is a thread in one of the Verizon Sammy phones...Note 3 I think...where a member actually discussed with Verizon executive services the possibility of the same thing HTC did (on other carriers since Verizon locked that door too). I believe the thread is "How much would you pay for unlocking the bootloader" or something like that. He was going to get an idea of how much people would pay for this code direct from Verizon. I think the majority was $25 atm. At least he was pitching the idea to Verizon and they were hearing him out. Perhaps more can do the same?
I was just trying to say that I did not understand how the inability to root would make you feel like the phone was not yours. The PS3 systems if you play online are locked down exactly the same...you jailbreak it and you cannot get on the Playstation network to play online. So it is not just cell phones that do not allow you to do more than the manufacturer promised. I also was stating that you can certainly root and unlock it...if you had the knowledge to do so. I think we just misunderstood each other.
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I do not agree about contracts. Phones can be sold to the government that are locked down, KNOX EMM helps with this substantially.
The ability to unlock my bootloader, however, can be sold or marketed along side that. Phones can be wiped when the BL is unlocked officially (fastbootx, etc). Instead, the dev community is forced to find exploits, thus weakening the phones "secure market value". Official unlock that wipes phone or an unofficial exploit that puts all phones at risk? I would rather have the option to officially unlock and void my warranty. However, I understand the stance of some carriers and manufactures for locking it down. Reduce liability for busted phones.
Government agencies also encrypt phones and discipline unauthorized usage.
chriskader said:
I do not agree about contracts. Phones can be sold to the government that are locked down, KNOX EMM helps with this substantially.
The ability to unlock my bootloader, however, can be sold or marketed along side that. Phones can be wiped when the BL is unlocked officially (fastbootx, etc). Instead, the dev community is forced to find exploits, thus weakening the phones "secure market value". Official unlock that wipes phone or an unofficial exploit that puts all phones at risk? I would rather have the option to officially unlock and void my warranty. However, I understand the stance of some carriers and manufactures for locking it down. Reduce liability for busted phones.
Government agencies also encrypt phones and discipline unauthorized usage.
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Since the community that roots their phones and actually breaks them and returns for warranty is probably in the neighborhood of 0.1% I doubt that has much impact on the decision of Verizon and AT&T to lock down the bootloader....if that was successfully the idea Sprint and T-Mobile would have done the same. I agree that for you Verizon users an alternative of paying to unlock your bootloader and listing the warranty as void would be a great offering...petition Verizon to consider that.
KennyG123 said:
Since the community that roots their phones and actually breaks them and returns for warranty is probably in the neighborhood of 0.1% I doubt that has much impact on the decision of Verizon and AT&T to lock down the bootloader....if that was successfully the idea Sprint and T-Mobile would have done the same. I agree that for you Verizon users an alternative of paying to unlock your bootloader and listing the warranty as void would be a great offering...petition Verizon to consider that.
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The petition thing is a great idea , and as I also said they could easily implement a way to offer it and track it.
The biggest problem with this whole issue is education as you are right, most people are not aware of exactly the reasons of rooting, what it even means, what they are giving up with bloated and locked down phones, or anything related to just how much privacy they do not have. I have thrown out information to people on my Facebook page and they had no clue.
As far as starting a petition, that is something I have never done before.
Does anyone have a suggestion for starting one, where to start it, or any info at all?
I would definitely do it if someone will head me in the right direction