Database Users

[Q] Metro style app wrapper utility.

Hi,
I couldn't find a [q/a] section to put this but.... I was just wondering if there was any application that could take regular windows 7 or below "legacy" windows program and allow it to be run in a "metro mode". Something like Mozilla's chromeless project but instead executes the program metro style. Is there a way to do this? I got the thought when I saw Google chrome for windows 8 and how it looked just like the desktop version but ran in metro.

joshumax said:
Hi,
I couldn't find a [q/a] section to put this but.... I was just wondering if there was any application that could take regular windows 7 or below "legacy" windows program and allow it to be run in a "metro mode". Something like Mozilla's chromeless project but instead executes the program metro style. Is there a way to do this? I got the thought when I saw Google chrome for windows 8 and how it looked just like the desktop version but ran in metro.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The only apps that can do that are browsers (And only when they are set as the default browser afaik).
You can use the metro RDP client and RemoteApps in Metro if you want.

"Wrapping" an app like you mention isn't really possible. I don't know how much you know about the way software works, but basically there's a bunch of standard code used for making "windows" that apps run in. These "libraries" are used with almost every app that creates its own window, even ones that don't use the normal Windows chrome at all. These libraries aren't available to TIFKAM (The Interface Formerly Known As Metro) apps, so the legacy apps won't even launch - the OS literally fails to load them. In theory you could create "fake" versions of those libraries which create the desired UI using TIFKAM elements, but the scale of that project would be incredible and I don't even know if it would work.
Then there's the sandbox problem... TIFKAM apps run with extremely limited permissions, much lower than the normal user permissions. This is going to cause problems for pretty much every non-trivial legacy app, which are used to being able to do things like access the Application Data folders and HKEY_CURRENT_USER registry.

If you were feeling adventurous you could make an app that has a non-metro broker that starts the app in the background fullscreened and streams screencaps to a Metro app, and mouseclicks away from a Metro app. I've seen apps (Like this one) that do it in DirectX overlays for games, so it should be theoretically possible for a Metro app to do this.
Note that such an app would never get approved into the MS store, since it would require a non-metro broker to escape Metro's permissions lock.

cant disable metro ui

im trying to disable metro.in the register but there isn't RPenabled to disable it.

i want to remove it.so it goes straight to the desktop just like windows 7

I'm pretty sure this was removed in the official release.

JihadSquad said:
I'm pretty sure this was removed in the official release.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
it was removed.
Learn metro, its actually pretty good once you get the hang of it with or without the touch

It was in fact removed well before release. "redpill" (what is controlled by the registry value you seek) is an MS-internal test mode for secret and/or experimental features. It's been present for at least a few previous beta products too, covering things like Win7's new taskbar. Only the very first public build of Win8 used the Redpill switch; everything after that had it built in.
There are third-party apps which disable TIFKAM (The Interface Formerly Known As Metro) to a lesser or greater degree, but I can't recommend any of them as I don't know what they actually do to the system. Personally, I just move the mouse to the lower-left corner (where the Start button appears usually), and then Right-click followed immediately by a Left-click. That will take you to the desktop from anywhere. Another way to do it is hit [Win]+d, the "Show Desktop" shortcut from previous Windows versions still works on Win8, and if you aren't on the desktop it will take you there.

To boot to desktop, change
Computer\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Winlogon\Shell
from "explorer.exe" to "explorer.exe /select,explorer.exe"
There are other ways w/o involving external software, one of which is to set up a task that runs on desktop. To find out, Google.
As far as disabling Metro altogether (ie the hot-corners), use any of the common 3rd-party fixes like Classic Shell. They work fine. Then you'd have basically an improved Win7 with some new features.
Unlike the "embrace change" advocates here, I think the user should decide if he wants to use Metro.

Good tip on the Shell registry change, thanks!

Thanks for the shell reg change, nice find. But we do have a choice to use metro or not, MS isn't a public service made to suite our needs, its a private company that can do as it wants, whether that is what we want as users is a different story, the best way to to affect change on private companies is to vote with your wallet so to speak. I'm not arguing that metro is better or anything there are issues with win 8, but as it stands there is a choice, an buying something then complaining it isn't what you want is perhaps a little silly, an we wouldn't do it in any other market cept the movie industry of course! Nope, MS will have your money an they won't be to bothered about anything else.
Sent from my Samsung Focus S using XDA Windows Phone 7 App

>it stands there is a choice, an buying something then complaining it isn't what you want is perhaps a little silly
The OP asks if there's a way to boot to desktop, not whether he wants Metro. Please restrict the editorializing and proselytizing to appropriate threads. Thanks.
BTW, credit for the reg edit goes to another in the Win8 Dev subforum. It's a compact variation of starting a desktop task (the task in this case being Explorer itself). Explorer's parameters are below for those interested. You can vary the results by experimenting with different combinations:
/n: Opens a new window in single-paned (My Computer) view for each item selected, even if the new window duplicates a window that is already open.
/e: Uses Windows Explorer view. Windows Explorer view is most similar to File Manager in Windows version 3.x. Note that the default view is Open view.
/root,<object>: Specifies the root level of the specified view. The default is to use the normal namespace root (the desktop). Whatever is specified is the root for the display.
/select,<sub object>: Specifies the folder to receive the initial focus. If "/select" is used, the parent folder is opened and the specified object is selected.
Usage examples here: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/130510

Guys no need to go into the shell!!
Get this app called pokki(search on google) .Install it.Once you install it click the pokki icon on desktop.Then check the boot to desktop option.If you want you can also get back the start button,thereby saying goodbye to metro altogether.
Hope this helps....
Thread Closed

e.mote said:
>it stands there is a choice, an buying something then complaining it isn't what you want is perhaps a little silly
The OP asks if there's a way to boot to desktop, not whether he wants Metro. Please restrict the editorializing and proselytizing to appropriate threads. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
e.mote said:
Unlike the "embrace change" advocates here, I think the user should decide if he wants to use Metro.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
...I was referring to your post above, its irrelevant we think it should do, it is what it is. There's no need to get all uppity about it. Once again, thank you for the interesting find.

>>Unlike the "embrace change" advocates here, I think the user should decide if he wants to use Metro.
>...I was referring to your post above, its irrelevant we think it should do, it is what it is. There's no need to get all uppity about it. Once again, thank you for the interesting find.
You should work on your reading comprehension. I said "the user should decide," not what I think Win8 should or shouldn't be. And you're welcome.

I'm using the classic shell add on:
http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/
It allows one to bypass the Win 8 UI and go directly to Windows. Plus it puts the start menu back in. I personally see no reason to try and disable the Win 8 new shell; just ignore it and stay on the desktop.
The only exception is that the new UI has some settings on my ultrabook that are not present in the Desktop interface (like controlling the GPS).

stevedebi said:
I'm using the classic shell add on:
http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/
It allows one to bypass the Win 8 UI and go directly to Windows. Plus it puts the start menu back in. I personally see no reason to try and disable the Win 8 new shell; just ignore it and stay on the desktop.
The only exception is that the new UI has some settings on my ultrabook that are not present in the Desktop interface (like controlling the GPS).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To be honest, I found ClassicShell to be buggy and unreliable. It frequently caused Explorer to crash.
I used Start8 through the trial and it seemed decent enough (I didn't crash hourly), but by the time that it expired I felt that Metro was just fine and didn't bother.

mrappbrain said:
Guys no need to go into the shell!!
Get this app called pokki(search on google) .Install it.Once you install it click the pokki icon on desktop.Then check the boot to desktop option.If you want you can also get back the start button,thereby saying goodbye to metro altogether.
Hope this helps....
Thread Closed
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Or install start8
Verstuurd van mijn GT-S5660

netham45 said:
To be honest, I found ClassicShell to be buggy and unreliable. It frequently caused Explorer to crash.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have it on one system, and although I haven't noticed it to cause any stability issues, I found Start8 to be more refined.
In any case, here are the top start menu/metro avoidance programs:
Classic Shell
Start8
StartMenu7
StartMenu8
Pokki
ViStart (linked but not recommended because it tries it's best to install all kinds of 3rd party toolbars)
netham45 said:
I used Start8 through the trial and it seemed decent enough (I didn't crash hourly), but by the time that it expired I felt that Metro was just fine and didn't bother.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I found just the opposite. I tried Metro for a while and just found it didn't do anything objectively better than the start menu, and the hot corners kept getting in my way (several of my programs have a lot of tools/buttons at the corners and edges and I was continually activating the various hidden menus). I tried Start8 and it works perfectly.

Theres an app called "FxxkMetro.exe" (actually spelt like that). It's designed to "seek out" and terminate all running instances of Metro, completely disabling it.

Multiple metro splitting / customizable metro splitting

I didn't find any topic about this. Excuse me if a topic already exists.
Name it as you want, but windows 8 allow us to split the screen and see two metro apps at the same time. I miss the windows' windows ( windows without windows is quite stupid for me ), but I like metro. Is there any way to split the screen many times, horizontally and with different ratios? ( not only 80:20 )
Many thanks.
Inviato dal mio HTC Desire con Tapatalk 2

It's been asked before, but nothing found. The official reason is that using a fixed-width sidebar mode allows developers to optimize their app interfaces for the width of that sidebar, but it would be nice to, for example, have two apps side-by-side in portrait mode on a 1920x1080 monitor (giving about 950x1080 each). I'm sure if such ahack is found, it'll be posted here...

GoodDayToDie said:
It's been asked before, but nothing found. The official reason is that using a fixed-width sidebar mode allows developers to optimize their app interfaces for the width of that sidebar, but it would be nice to, for example, have two apps side-by-side in portrait mode on a 1920x1080 monitor (giving about 950x1080 each). I'm sure if such ahack is found, it'll be posted here...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Right, many thanks for answering. I'll pantientiently wait. So sorry for useless topic.
Optimization or not, in Win7 I could have A LOT of windows on the screen at the same time. Falling back to 2 in the new version is very disappointing. Samsung smartphones have visual multitasking and my 1920x1080 PC can't have more than two windows? If it wasn't for performances of Win8, I would be on Win7 right now.

Win8 is capable of having an arbitrary number of windows open at once... I get almost no use out of the Metro apps and just do everything on the desktop.

GoodDayToDie said:
Win8 is capable of having an arbitrary number of windows open at once... I get almost no use out of the Metro apps and just do everything on the desktop.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep, desktop is just like win7 desktop, so you can get unlimited windows. But Metro apps are quite integrated with everything and living without them is hard. And I can't see a youtube video while writing a document.

You can't? Word and a browser pointing at YouTube works fine for me...
Seriously, aside from mail (which I only use because it'll connect from outside work's firewall) and Skype (which works great snapped to one side), the only "Metro" apps I use are games (which I would have full-screened anyhow). The music, pictures, and messenger apps are crap. I manage my calendar from the phone and only "use" it on the PC to see and dismiss notifications. I prefer the desktop control panel and OneNote. The built-in PDF reader app is... not great, so I have Foxit. Metro IE is worthless next to the desktop version. Metro remote desktop is OK, but the desktop version is powerful and familiar. Start and the Store are both "metro" but aren't really apps in the usual sense. SSH and such are available on the desktop (I use Interix).
If anything, I'd say Metro apps are the opposite of "integrated with everything". They can't change system settings, and often can't even check them. They have very limited ability to talk to other programs, whereas almost everything on the desktop supports drag&drop, for example. They can't do anything requiring high privileges. They're terrible for browsing the filesystem. They suck for multitasking in general. They can't (officially) launch other programs. They might not be an evolutionary dead end, but they aren't an evolution I'm happy to see. Give me sandboxes, and maybe even a store, but let *me* control the sandbox and let me apply them to desktop software. Give me synced app state, but let everything use it not just the stuff from your store. Give me Vista's Windows Mail instead of this crap. Touch-friendly is great, but even on my Surface I don't so much except games with touch; give me traditional UIs too.

Windows Blue/9 - Features

After seeing the leaked build of Windows Blue at http://www.theverge.com/2013/3/24/4...creenshots-leak-smaller-live-tiles-options-ui, it got me thinking about what I'd like to see. A video I saw had some good ideas but I know that us XDA members can do better. Said video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdqUsTAWSnY
Personally, I would like to see:
A better default e-mail app
Ability to boot straight into the desktop
More gestures
More optimization
Even faster boot times
What features would you like to see in the next version of Windows?

faster boot times is just greedy as it is my windows 8 machine booting off of an HDD side by side with a mates more powerful win 7 machine booting from SSD, my machine reaches desktop about a second after his does, and I have to go through a boot select screen and click a tile on the start screen.
Blue isn't 9.
Mail app we need yeah. I would add the music and video apps while your at it.
I dont own a touchscreen so gesture wise I dont care.
Booting straight to desktop would be nice I guess, I really dont care as I actually like the new start screen but some people of course ask for that feature anyway.
What I want to see:
Improved music and video apps, frankly, they suck. Music wise I now use "I love music" which isnt too bad but is a little rough around the edges, certainly better than default though
improved mail app (as you already said)
ability to resize the split between sideloaded metro apps
being able to run my desktop on one monitor and metro on another
my running desktop applications should be listed in the running applications sidebar on the left of the screen, that only seems to show metro applications
in the store app being able to list applications from certain developers (for example being able to look at the angry birds space entry and being able to click rovio to show all rovio apps).
While they are at it with releasing windows blue. XNA replacement please

SixSixSevenSeven said:
faster boot times is...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is always something faster regarding boot times. There are some Chrome books which boot in 8 seconds compared to my laptops 14. The ability to split metro apps has already been added if you check the link about the leak from the Verge. All your suggestions are very good, hopefully at least a few of then will be in Blue
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

Reboot times are a total red herring. It's a waste of Microsoft's time to put a bunch of people to work shaving off another second or two. Why are people rebooting anyhow?? I never do except for updates. Sleep is faster to enter, faster to return from, doesn't require re-launching my apps, uses only trivial power, and is supported on all hardware I've seen this decade (although I did, about four years ago, encounter an NVidia driver whose preferred form of "screwing up your PC..." install process was to break sleep mode, which I fixed by rolling it back).
Now, if they want to make it so that reboots are needed less often, I'm all for that. More user-mode drivers, and/or modernize the kernel-mode driver stack to reduce how often KMDs require reboots (already much better than XP and below, but still too high). Make Windows Update better about not requiring reboot; I'm willing to close a program or even restart the desktop Explorer session (which takes moments) to avoid rebooting the whole machine.
Fix the <REDACTED> Start search. I don't understand why they took one of the best UI features of Vista, preserved it in Win7, and messed it up in Win8, but the whole segregation of "Apps", "Settings", and "Files" needs to stop, now! Launching programs is one of the very few core requirements of an OS, and the last two versions of Win8 were better at it than Win8 is (specifically, they required fewer clicks and showed more useful info at a glance). That's a travesty.
Metro apps and multi-monitor were already discussed. Instead of reiterating those, I'd like to see more capable Metro apps. Currently, they're locked down to nigh-uselessness from a get-stuff-done perspective. Consequently, I barely ever use them... but that's not good for the ecosystem, because it means that I (and people like myself) have much less incentive to develop them, too. One critical feature: the ability to launch other programs without the target being expressly designed for it.
As a Surface RT owner: remove the stupid prohibition against third-party desktop apps. Make it a hard-to-find setting if you must, but let me unlock it without needing kernel-mode hackery.
As a Surface RT owner: give me drivers! The USB port is already useful, but it could be a lot more useful.
As a Surface RT owner: add support for the low-power standby core of the Tegra 3. Battery life is good already but could be better.
Integrate something like OblyTile into the Start screen. Default desktop-app tiles are ugly.
Worth asking for: multiple (virtual) desktops? I mean, it's "just another app" now, right? I hate that in 2013 I still need to use third-party utiltiies to get this feature that all other common desktop environments have.
Please don't kill off the SUA (Subsustem for Unix Applications)! At the very least, open-source it when you drop official support, so the community can introduce some long-overdue fixes. But seriously, that thing is useful. Cygwin is a nasty hack by comparison.
A virtualization environment that supports high-end graphics would be nice. There's a lot of games that run like crap on NT6 but don't run on virtual XP machines using any of Microsoft's virtualization environments. That directly contributes to the market share of third-party virtualization software. MS used to be good at this VM thing for uses other than servers...
Lots more, but this post is long enough as is. That covers most of the gripes I have at least once a week using this OS.

Most of these are from the viewpoint of an RT user, unless noted.
Critical:
Allow unsigned desktop apps
Allow third-party Metro apps (sideloading)
An alarm clock on RT
Allow metro apps to run backgrounded without requiring them to be pinned to the lock screen
WinRT lacks some major features in the API set (from what I've experienced, lack of client-side cert support for SSL, lack of decent background capabilities, and lack of VPN, though they claim to be fixing the last one)
Go back to the idea that developers create the platform and stop trying to mimic Apple by closing the ecosystem down
Desired:
Allow a hotzone for corners, instead of just a hotspot (x86, mostly)
Better mail app
Allow start screen wallpaper customization without tedious hacks
Allow fine grained tuning of which settings are synced between computers (I don't want the same wallpaper on my tablet and desktop, for example, so I have to turn off syncing all customization settings)
Open up the ARM DDK
Documentation on what features are lacking/missing on ARM Vs. x86.

The current sideloading situation works fine for me, though I agree with the rest of those. I might care more if I found Metro less useless in general.

Hmm, my Lenovo Twist cold boots in about 3 seconds. Doesn't get much better than that.
Sent from my SGH-I777 using xda app-developers app

It really doesn't, actually. The default "shut down" behavior on Win8 is to reboot the machine, and then enter hibernation right before showing the login screen. This is one of the lowest-RAM-usage points in the operation of a PC, so both entering and leaving hibernation here is extremely fast. When you "cold boot" your system, all that is happening is the power-on self test (which is very fast on modern hardware), followed by the OS resuming from the minimal hibernation image (which could easily take three seconds or possibly less with an SSD but not a ton of RAM). Bam, you're at the login prompt in what seems like no time at all!
If you want to do a true cold boot, you'll need to either disable hibernation boot (one of the easiest ways to do this is to disable hibernation entirely using "powercfg /h off", probably must be run as Admin) or you'll need to remove power while the system is running (as in, remove the power cord and remove or drain the battery without allowing it to enter sleep or hibernate). You can get an idea of the true bootup time just by rebooting the machine, but a machine built for Win8 probably won't show you the point where the "shutdown" portion switches off with the "bootup" portion; using EFI, that whole thing can be hidden.

Wouldn't electricity bills go through the roof if all 5 PC's in my household were on hibernate 24/7 365?
Sent from my Nexus 7 using XDA Premium HD app

mmmcfc said:
Wouldn't electricity bills go through the roof if all 5 PC's in my household were on hibernate 24/7 365?
Sent from my Nexus 7 using XDA Premium HD app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They're off when they're in hibernate. Hibernate saves the state to disk then completely powers off the computer. You could literally unplug it for 5 years and it would still have the state.

Yep, hibernate's entire point is that it uses no power. However, maybe you meant sleep instead, also known as suspend-to-RAM and which does use a trickle of power. It's a small trickle, though; a PC in Sleep mode draws less than five watts (and most draw only one or two). Five PCs in sleep mode, assuming they're big, beefy, and incredibly inefficient, plus have every kind of wake-on-event (wake-on-LAN, wake-on-click, wake-on-timer, etc.) option enabled, will draw about 25W - non-trivial but less than half what a typical incadescent light bulb draws. Realistically, it would be closer to 5W, especially if some of them are laptops (which only use a portion of a watt).
Depending on the percentage of time that the PC is on anyhow and how efficient its sleep mode is, you may actually be wasting power by taking the time to turn it off, then on again (requiring restarting its programs) all the time. Entering and exiting sleep is effectively instant.

I for one would love to see custom backgrounds on the Start screen, as well as Google Talk support in the Messaging app. One of the main reasons I still have to keep a GMail tab open on Chrome, so I can receive IMs.
Also I would be pleased if they returned Google Calendar syncing after the updates a few days ago. I was very annoyed when all my Calendar events disappeared, but seems to have gotten better since I worked around that with the subscriptions feature in Outlook.
More functionality in the Metro/Modern part of the OS would also be good, but I have already seen that happening with the recent leaks.
Edit: And I also would love to see Aero Glass with Blur come back in the Desktop. Although there are a few hacks to get it working, most do not have similar functionality to Windows 8 or are buggy. The only good one imo doesn't support 32 bit.

How come my windows phone syncs with google fine. Yet windows doesnt.
Google have more sync options than EAS and contrary to MS's claim EAS is still active until june or july.
All they have done is made the mail and people apps worse not better.
Anyway. Supposedly in the blue leak IE11 now has stubs for WebGL support. If this is true then windows blue presumably has OpenGL support, possible for store apps too. OpenGL, even if it is just the ES subset, on RT has been an often demanded feature.
So many android and iOS apps are written with OpenGLES, if microsoft wanted an app rich store then it really would have made sense to support OpenGLES to allow porting of iOS and android apps to windows without having to be rewritten for DirectX11 (not a simple task in many cases).

Oh, overall they made Mail a lot better... but it pisses me off that for people who already had a working Google EAS connection, they went and disabled it. I'm holding off on updating my other devices for now. As for "more sync options than EAS", this is technically true (and the new version of Mail offers to set them up for you), but the others are not as well integrated (one protocol to provide contacts, email, calendars, and security policies).
WebGL support I'm actually kind of skeptical of; the web is a very hostile environment and video drivers are a frightening combination of high-value targets and shaky security. I'm concerned about the attack surface exposed by enabling WebGL. However, it's true that OpenGL, even just OGLES, would be a huge boon to the platform. Windows and DirectX may still rule the roost for PC games, but even there their lead is eroding. In the mobile space, OpenGL has left DirectX in the dirt.

Is the new Windows 8 finally worth the transition from 7?

My biggest fear is that troubleshooting, and the hell hole of creating network drives, sharing permissions and all kinds of other thigns I had to do to stream my Media to my android and PS3 will just repeat itself or get worst if I upgrade.
What are the general experiences with media and directory sharing on Windows 8 vs Windows 7? Can you drop all of Microsoft's security mechanisms as a whole?

hm
write a simple script for your network file sharing, are you doing an upgrade or going from scratch?

buffalosolja42 said:
write a simple script for your network file sharing, are you doing an upgrade or going from scratch?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Unsure about that. I would like to from scratch since if I do make the move to Windows 8 I will probably load it onto an SSD and have two HDDs for storage

Wrong forum, mate. This is Windows Phone 8. The Windows 8 forum is over there. Please ask a moderator to move this thread.

I was shocked with how stable Windows 7 is, it very rarely freezes or reboots etc.
I can't believe how often Windows 8 freezes, reboots, fails to start, can't diagnose startup problems or if it does, I do it 3 times and somehow it finds a problem on the third time, why is that?
I use exactly the same programs on each OS. I have used 8 preview, 8 and now 8.1 each one is unstable and creates problems. For a desktop user, it's a nightmare.

SharpnShiny said:
I was shocked with how stable Windows 7 is, it very rarely freezes or reboots etc.
I can't believe how often Windows 8 freezes, reboots, fails to start, can't diagnose startup problems or if it does, I do it 3 times and somehow it finds a problem on the third time, why is that?
I use exactly the same programs on each OS. I have used 8 preview, 8 and now 8.1 each one is unstable and creates problems. For a desktop user, it's a nightmare.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have been running windows 8 on my daily use machine since the week it launched, not once has it frozen, rebooted or failed to boot. Nor have I heard of such prolific issues from anyone else

Honestly I threw 8.1 preview on one of two new boxes at home, 7 Ultimate on the other.
Both with SSD caching and boot times are similar. Performance also seems similar.
I got one copy of 8 for one system and one for the other.
Metro was made for touch screens (and is great with one) - but the box with 8 will never have it.
So I have it boot straight to desktop and I'll live on the desktop except for occasionally finding an app.
(Think I might look at that Pokki or other start menu alternatives..)

If you have a touch screen go 8. If you don't stick with 7...

According to me it is not up to the mark...... 7 is better may be future updates may change my attitude...
Sent from my Xperia U using xda app-developers app

I cannot find *one* thing superior in windows 7 to windows 8 bar the fact that driver signature enforcement is enabled (but can be disabled for a single boot if you need to install some drivers anyway, once installed an unsigned driver will work fine after a reboot).
Start button being absent like everyone complains about. Who seriously uses the start button? All it does is let you launch programs or shut the PC down. Well I can launch programs just fine from desktop (albeit I like a clean desktop so don't), task bar, start screen or via search. Search is easy to get to, hit the windows key to go to the start screen, start typing and it immediately searches for that program. Shutdown, I never shut down from the start bar anyway and haven't in years, Control-Alt-Delete, or charms bar > settings > Power > Shutdown. Or windows key + D to go to desktop (or the button on the task bar, or some other way that I don't care to mention) and hit alt-F4 and windows will prompt for shutdown. Admin functions like control panel etc, hold the windows key and press X, a menu appears where the start button used to reside and lists most useful functions immediately, or you can move the mouse into the bottom left so the button to go to the start screen appears and then right click it.
Metro/Start as they prefer to call it that (seriously, they dropped the metro name way before full release) you look at for all of 2 seconds. I have a tile on it to go to desktop, but prefer to use windows key + D. Other than that, I actually use it with tiles for my favourite programs neatly pinned to it.
The start button is archaic. I saw someone saying that its impossible to throw away years of using a start button, I honestly wondered who was still using it, it was hideous. I got my first PC when I was 8, 2002 if you must know. At the age of 8 you learn to do things 1 way and usually stick to that. Yet I got windows 8 shortly after release (it was still during the discounted price period) and adapted to the lack of start bar within an hour, prior to that I was a heavy computer user. There we go, 11/12 years of heavy computer usage with the start bar being present and I throw it out within an hour. That was so hard.
Things change. Deal with it. The start button has been with us for how long and it is finally old enough that it needs putting to rest. Once upon a time we only used "primitive" command line entry systems (many still do), many of those users were angry when the modern desktop appeared, now its commonplace.

SixSixSevenSeven;45816830 ...
Start button being absent like everyone complains about. Who seriously uses the start button?[/QUOTE said:
Are you serious?
Given that Windows 8 has been dubbed the new Vista by many major publications, computer experts and power PC users, and that one of the biggest complaints among these users and businesses in surveys and that feedback from multiple major global PC manufacturers from consumers that the Start Menu was one of their key issues, given that the largest computer manufactuer by sales - Lenovo has intervened and preinstalled the free Start Menu replacement Pokki on all new Windows 8 machines, given the sheer amount of questions on this site about the Start Menu, give the huge number of sales of 3rd party software that replace the missing Start Menu (such as Start8) I would say many, many, many of us use the Start Button and the Start Menu.
Logical error #1 'If I have no use for this, then no one else does' ...
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Vista came out six years ago. Huge numbers of people *still* actually go into a menu structure to find their programs instead of just typing a few letters of the program name or description or executable file name, then hitting Enter.
The only conclusion I've been able to draw from this is that the majority of computer users are, in effect, idiots. This seems somewhat unlikely, but I'm pretty sure that recognizing the advantages in speed and convenience do not require above-average intelligence, yet people still fail to take advantage of it.
The Start screen is irrelevant to me, aside from its segregation of search results (fixed in 8.1 anyhow). The demand for Start Menu replacements says an awful lot about the intelligence of the Windows userbase, more than about the quality of the OS in general. With that said, I will grant that the Windows devs may have screwed up by failing to take into consideration just how dumb their target market is (at least with regard to computers).
Educating them - on a grand scale, the way MS did for the Start button in Win95 - might work. It would be interesting to see. The MS of today seems completely incapable of effective marketing and communication compared to the Microsoft of yesteryear, though.

In my opinion, Windows 8 is a great system for what is under the hood. The system and startup is dramatically feature and has much more safety features built in. The fact that Microsoft built in Microsoft Security Essentials means that you no longer have to deal with anti-virus and firewall stuff and since it is built in, it doesnt slow down your system anymore is a bonus. Also, the new backup features, performance tools and task manager are greatly improves and much better then recent versions.
As for the metro (or "modern") garbage, If you are using your PC as umm.. a PC it is really un-needed and unnecesary but is easy to get rid of using third party apps to get you back to the Windows 7 style desktop. I currently use Startisback which also makes other desktop changes to get rid of metro completely. If you want apps, installed Google Chrome and use Google's new desktop apps. This would also make it much easier for Android users as everything pretty much syncs with the phone.
One small other "rant" make sure you use a uxtheme patcher and a visual style... whose idea at Microsoft was it to use black text in the window border but white text on the taskbar?
In my opinion that gives me the best of all worlds.

SharpnShiny said:
Are you serious?
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Actually I am. I find the idea of the start button to just be obsolete and the new system to be FASTER for power users who can be bothered to get their heads out of their asses and adapt to change.

SixSixSevenSeven said:
Actually I am. I find the idea of the start button to just be obsolete and the new system to be FASTER for power users who can be bothered to get their heads out of their asses and adapt to change.
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Yes because clicking then moving your hands to the keyboard then typing is so much better than click click and click.
Saves movement, saves time but I guess it's just obsolete

hakcenter said:
Yes because clicking then moving your hands to the keyboard then typing is so much better than click click and click.
Saves movement, saves time but I guess it's just obsolete
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don't need the mouse to navigate windows 8 itself. See that lovely windows logo key, press it, takes you straight to the start screen where you can start typing. Want to get to the settings charm to shut down the pc, windows key + I, if you want you can even navigate that menu with the arrow keys but alternatively the icons are large so easy to hit with a nice imprecise high speed mouse movement. Windows key + X, opens a menu with things like control panel and device manager etc, in this list each item has a single character somewhere within the item name underscored, press thus character and it selects that menu option, Win + X and then C opens the command prompt for example. Very little mouse use is required, can do most things for windows 8 itself (except apps and desktop programs) with just a keyboard.

tp2215 said:
...
One small other "rant" make sure you use a uxtheme patcher and a visual style... whose idea at Microsoft was it to use black text in the window border but white text on the taskbar?
In my opinion that gives me the best of all worlds.
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Could you recommend a uxtheme? You use it to restore some Windows 7 font/UI right? Do you restore glass/Aero? I've been using Start8 which I like a lot, but for the other features they really want you to pay at several gates...in the end, making Win8 look a bit more like Win 7 costs a small fortune with them.
edit - I just spotted the popular early mod of aero in 8 has come out of beta and is still free: http://glass8.berlios.de/
This update is really interesting...it's Aero Glass within a Win 8 framework...it's a curious UI mix.

SharpnShiny said:
Could you recommend a uxtheme? You use it to restore some Windows 7 font/UI right? Do you restore glass/Aero? I've been using Start8 which I like a lot, but for the other features they really want you to pay at several gates...in the end, making Win8 look a bit more like Win 7 costs a small fortune with them.
edit - I just spotted the popular early mod of aero in 8 has come out of beta and is still free: http://glass8.berlios.de/
This update is really interesting...it's Aero Glass within a Win 8 framework...it's a curious UI mix. *pets cat and ponders*
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For some great uxtheme just search around deviantart here is a good place to start http://www.deviantart.com/customization/skins/. There are lots of them scattered around that, if anything, will restore the look back to Windows 7. Most of them have versions that will also tie right into the aero mod that you mentioned. One word of advice though from expereince, if the pc wants to update, switch back to default style before restarting. Microsoft released several updates that seem to "softbrick' your pc if the patch is installed. It will just boot with a black screen and the only way to repair would be to refresh or system restore.

hakcenter said:
Yes because clicking then moving your hands to the keyboard then typing is so much better than click click and click.
Saves movement, saves time but I guess it's just obsolete
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Just for the record, the keyboard is always faster than the mouse.

mcosmin222 said:
Just for the record, the keyboard is always faster than the mouse.
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Not when you count time from shifting your hands from the mouse to the keyboard.
Like browsing the web, then you wanted to open up Photoshop well now your up crap Creek cause you can't just have a simple shortcut on the ready.
Anyone defending the missing power user feature of having a central location for common tasks is just sailing their boat to no where. Especially when you look at the fact the guy that pressed for 8 was fired... Yawn.
Watch the next windows brings it back then all you crazy dudes won't find a single utility to remove the menu cause it's just stupidity at it's finest.