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Microsoft thinks of the Metro UI as the Desktop, and the Desktop as an application.
I want to modify this way of thinking and put it back to how it should be.
I want to when you login, go to the desktop, I know there is already a registry tweak for this. And I want to add back a start button. But when you hit this start button I want to bring up the metro UI. But not completely full screen. I want to leave the taskbar at the bottom, so you can still easily switch between your open apps.
Doing this creates the feel of a full screen customizable Start Menu, rather than a whole new (crappy) interface we have to learn. It would make live tiles more useful in my eyes too. You could potentially even have the Metro apps work this way too, so you arent taken off the desktop into the new interface, but still interacting with it in a way both users and forseeably microsoft would approve.
This idea came when I was theming my own ViStart start menu, and my friend said he wished he could have a larger start menu that was more customizable, in terms of sorting and viewing. And this just sort of hit me.
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
While this certainly seems feasible with the Start page, there is no way around having Metro apps run in a visual state besides full screen, snapped, filled and portrait. Microsoft have stated that developers should only count on 1px boundaries around their apps and letting the taskbar stay on top would change this guideline, which I think is both against the point of Metro apps and too late to be added to the design guidelines.
But yeah, as an alternative to the current Start page it seems pretty cool.
Really, I think Microsoft sees Metro UI as more of a Start Menu/new UI rather than a Desktop. Sure the Desktop is an application, but the Metro Start Screen was not supposed to replace the desktop, only replace the Start Menu with a more informative version.
That was my idea that i've posted on MS blog long time ago. Also unification of running applications lists (metro and desktop) would be fine. But now it's all too late. I think about switching to w8 for a while to see if i like it. I did that with w7 and vista with some scripts that sync applications data between partitions when systems were changed (newer files replaced the older) - this way i could use the same application with the same data on booth systems and after a while i've switched to w7 completely.
I know it's too late to have microshaft do it, but I'm sure it's something a third party developer could do, which is why I posted here, hoping someone could take a crack at it
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i heard that metro files are encrypted AES 256bit
so it wont be possible or soon
however its gr8 idea hope ms will adopted it
cos its metro really "hollow" looking for me and at the Caterpillar phase
Greg2k said:
While this certainly seems feasible with the Start page, there is no way around having Metro apps run in a visual state besides full screen, snapped, filled and portrait. Microsoft have stated that developers should only count on 1px boundaries around their apps and letting the taskbar stay on top would change this guideline, which I think is both against the point of Metro apps and too late to be added to the design guidelines.
But yeah, as an alternative to the current Start page it seems pretty cool.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The thing is that Microsoft needs to stop pretending that it's possible to make an UI that works well on both tablets and PCs. Metro works well on tablets but it is only a pain to use on a PC. Yes, I've used Windows 8 for about a month on my PC and my conclusion is that most tasks require more actions/time to complete than with regular desktop apps, especially when you need to use two separate apps.
What they need to do is a split of Tablets and PC and I feel that this suggestion is a good way to do it. Also, what they really need to realize is that it's a stupid idea to limit PC users to running 2 apps simultaneously per screen. The fact that they apparently doesn't see a problem with running everything in fullscreen is also a bit worrying. A good example of a task that can't be done in Metro is reading a PDF and at the same time writing in a word processor, because there isn't a way to run apps in 50/50 mode, only 70/30 which will make on of those apps a real pain to use.
I think they should do something like this, but make the start button only show 2-4 tiles initially (first group), then add a button that expands the menu to the whole screen. This would allow me to pin my most important (live) tiles on the start menu and give me a glance over it at time to time. I guess it would also be a good idea to be able to pin tiles in the taskbar and even if they mey not be fully live there is definitely enough space to display a number. This would be excellent for e.g. email and IM since they would always be visible. Of course Microsoft would also need to produce a whole new set of Metro apps for the desktop.
Sir. Haxalot said:
The thing is that Microsoft needs to stop pretending that it's possible to make an UI that works well on both tablets and PCs. Metro works well on tablets but it is only a pain to use on a PC. Yes, I've used Windows 8 for about a month on my PC and my conclusion is that most tasks require more actions/time to complete than with regular desktop apps, especially when you need to use two separate apps.
What they need to do is a split of Tablets and PC and I feel that this suggestion is a good way to do it. Also, what they really need to realize is that it's a stupid idea to limit PC users to running 2 apps simultaneously per screen. The fact that they apparently doesn't see a problem with running everything in fullscreen is also a bit worrying. A good example of a task that can't be done in Metro is reading a PDF and at the same time writing in a word processor, because there isn't a way to run apps in 50/50 mode, only 70/30 which will make on of those apps a real pain to use.
I think they should do something like this, but make the start button only show 2-4 tiles initially (first group), then add a button that expands the menu to the whole screen. This would allow me to pin my most important (live) tiles on the start menu and give me a glance over it at time to time. I guess it would also be a good idea to be able to pin tiles in the taskbar and even if they mey not be fully live there is definitely enough space to display a number. This would be excellent for e.g. email and IM since they would always be visible. Of course Microsoft would also need to produce a whole new set of Metro apps for the desktop.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They do, its called the All apps button and semantic zoom button at the lower right corner of the start screen. It is completely possible to have a UI optimized for both touch and traditional input devices and they've done it well. Tasks do not take longer, if anything it's shorter to open metro, right click on the screen, hit all apps and select and normal desktop program than it ever was to search for a program through millions of program groups in the start menu.
Sent from my LG-LS670 using XDA
edgex said:
I know it's too late to have microshaft do it, but I'm sure it's something a third party developer could do, which is why I posted here, hoping someone could take a crack at it
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lets keep the childish MS hate out of this forum shall we
ShadowEO said:
They do, its called the All apps button and semantic zoom button at the lower right corner of the start screen. It is completely possible to have a UI optimized for both touch and traditional input devices and they've done it well. Tasks do not take longer, if anything it's shorter to open metro, right click on the screen, hit all apps and select and normal desktop program than it ever was to search for a program through millions of program groups in the start menu.
Sent from my LG-LS670 using XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
indeed, im not sure how some people can make such sweeping statements like we all dont like it, or that no one can use it. I think its great and loth using my Office computer, its refreshing and quick, very quick!
dazza9075 said:
lets keep the childish MS hate out of this forum shall we
indeed, im not sure how some people can make such sweeping statements like we all dont like it, or that no one can use it. I think its great and loth using my Office computer, its refreshing and quick, very quick!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not sure what is quick, opening a photo with the metro app takes longer than loading photoshop CS6! and the interface is not fluid, you must leave the desktop to run another app, to get back, you have to either hit the windows key to hopefully get back to metro screen, then hit desktop, or if you know what you are doing, alt tabbing around. slow and not easy. and multi tasking, I don't even think I can have windows 50/50.
I will definitely use win8, but metro is not my bag of chips, it would make a much better start menu while taskbar is showing, then a whole user interface/system.
edgex said:
Not sure what is quick, opening a photo with the metro app takes longer than loading photoshop CS6! and the interface is not fluid, you must leave the desktop to run another app, to get back, you have to either hit the windows key to hopefully get back to metro screen, then hit desktop, or if you know what you are doing, alt tabbing around. slow and not easy. and multi tasking, I don't even think I can have windows 50/50.
I will definitely use win8, but metro is not my bag of chips, it would make a much better start menu while taskbar is showing, then a whole user interface/system.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if it is taking as long as PS to open up then I suggest you need to look at your computer because I have no delay at all in opening a photo, browsing through all of my sources for photos is fluid and very quick, opening photos independent of metro takes no longer than any other version of windows this century. But that is just one example.
use metro, aka, your new start menu, to hold all your important self updating apps. Within a fraction of a second I can check multiply email accounts, stock markets, PMs, what songs playing, my appointments coming up, if any apps are updating and the weather forecast, and that is just from a small handful of RP apps!
Win button, check it all, win button, back to work on whatever program im currently working on, it doesn't get much more efficient than that, and again, this is the RP, once more apps are available potential uses go through the roof!
Yes, I support this idea; please hurry up and make it happen, I'm about to throw this POS out the window! This was not meant for desktops or non touch laptops, its a complete mess.
sinister1 said:
Yes, I support this idea; please hurry up and make it happen, I'm about to throw this POS out the window! This was not meant for desktops or non touch laptops, its a complete mess.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, but go ahead and throw it out. You shouldn't be using the previews anyway if you hate metro. It's what they're trying to get feedback on. We won't miss you.
Metro is great with both mouse and non touch laptops (I use my non touch NetBook with downscaling on so I can actually use metro apps.)
Sent from my LS-LS670 using XDA
ShadowEO said:
Sorry, but go ahead and throw it out. You shouldn't be using the previews anyway if you hate metro. It's what they're trying to get feedback on. We won't miss you.
Metro is great with both mouse and non touch laptops (I use my non touch NetBook with downscaling on so I can actually use metro apps.)
Sent from my LS-LS670 using XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My opinions are my own views so weather or not I hate it doesn't give you the right to tell me to use it or not; who do you think you are talking to me like that? I'm not a child. And who cares if you miss me or not? What are you like 12 years old? I don't remember disrespecting you; so grow up and respect your elders.
sinister1 said:
My opinions are my own views so weather or not I hate it doesn't give you the right to tell me to use it or not; who do you think you are talking to me like that? I'm not a child. And who cares if you miss me or not? What are you like 12 years old? I don't remember disrespecting you; so grow up and respect your elders.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You have me all wrong friend. In a blunt way I was stating that the previews are to gain some preliminary telemetry from metro. If you don't use metro, they don't get it. Moreover, metro is probably not going to be optional, so you'll continue to hate it anyway as per your previous statement. I meant no offense or insult by my previous statements and never mean any offense to begin with. Also please look at my profile before commenting on age, it looks silly when someone does that. Although I find it funny that you fly off the handle at a single post and then personally attack me, it's the internet and there are a lot worse people than me.
Also my statement is my opinion, so are you allowed your yet I should stifle mine?
Some food for thought.
Sent from my LS-LS670 using XDA
I still think there should be some competence test to see if a user should use it or not, it would save MS a lot of hassle in the long run and serious testers can then exchange ideas and opinions without the constant interruption from from people who just don't care to make a difference other than spread general FUD about something they know little about
Sent from my HD2 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
What I don't get, is the Metro Start Menu is only used when you are playing within the start menu, or playing with metro apps. Outside of that 95% of your normal Windows 7 style usage can continue like it always has. Really how long do people spend in the start menu in Win7 and older? It is clunky, hard to navigate quickly with a mouse, and overall still dates back to Windows XP in functionality. With the addition of Quick Search in Vista and 7, I rarely go to the start menu outside of the obscure app I didn't create a shortcut for or for some reason, misspell when I type.
Now using the new Metro Start menu, quick search is as easy as ever with a keyboard and mouse, the built in gestures are actually incredibly intuitive both with and without a KB/Mouse or Touchscreen, and everything I could do with my normal Win7 desktop can be done just as fast if not faster on Win8. Some of the new Metro apps are actually really good and some like mentioned above (Music and Video app) could still use some tweaking (like just giving us normal Zune style combined integration and usability would be nice). Outside of that It will definitely take everyone a bit of time to get used to the new design, they will need to have some form of active tutorial to get to know Win8 for new users for sure, but once they get used to it, I think it will be a refreshing change that may not be welcome at first, but when it comes to inventing a whole new level of app design and computing, I dare to see anyone actually make something completely new that is as easy to use with both the KB/Mouse and touch without looking like the old interface (pretty much like the OP's post though I do admit it looks good) or ripping off someone else's design. Microsoft is on to something good and with Windows RT, things I feel will get really competitive in the tablet market.
I have had the pleasure of using Win8 on both a normal desktop and on a Acer W500 tablet, and I really enjoy it on both. It takes a different approach on how you arrange and get to your apps and discovering what the current metro apps do for you, but give it time, get used to that Windows key, and really give it an honest shot by actually using all the gestures and features offered. Don't just throw it out because it looks different and therefor must suck..
It is funny, how every generation of Windows it is the same dance. New version comes out with much better interface, design, layout, features, and you always have the ones that have to configure it back to Win95 layout just because they can't adapt. If that is you, well, there will always probably be a convenient registry change (or heck even possibly an official option when released) to go back to the old days.
Well, i give credit to Microsoft for trying to create a universal OS interface but i have to admit Metro is far from it. sure its faster and better optimized but all that speed is for not because i constantly have to switch between the desktop and the metro interface. However there is alot of things i do like. i do like how they hid the start button i like having to hit the windows key to access it i think its very simple. and i also like the new window, designs the menus on them, and they just the look is nice. And all the optimization is really really nice. if microsoft is for some reason reading this here is my two cents. keep the metro but make it smaller and confine it to the start menu portion of the screen. it would be easier on a desktop environment to have a customizable start menu and a desktop environment than to convert the whole start menu to the desktop thats just useless on anything but a touch screen.
Im confused on some things with the complaints. What part do you not like? The desktop is still there, i almost never even see the metro unless im going to start a new program. For desktop users its really not bad at all, only the start menu is changed. And there is a way to undo that change, plus microsoft did comment saying they would have both availible to users
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As I'm sure many people have discovered (at least if my searching about it is to be believed), Metro Apps - sorry - Windows 8 style apps, can not be run when UAC is turned off. They just yell at you and don't start.
This leaves one solution, turning on UAC. But, when you do that, those annoying little pop-ups appear any time you want to do anything useful on your computer with any non-built-in program. Seems like we can only choose one, right? Running Metro apps and being annoyed all the time or not being annoyed by UAC but not being able to use Metro apps.
Luckily, this isn't the case! This can be fixed, giving you the nice non-nagging of having UAC off and the convenience of running Metro apps! How, you ask? A very simple registry edit!
First, open up control panel and get to the UAC section
- I have no idea where this is, just search "UAC" in the top right bar of control panel, or easier yet, in the system search
Drag the slider down to "Never Notify"
It should ask you to restart. You MAY not need to, but I haven't tried it. I recommend restarting.
Next, open up the registry editor.
- just press windows+q to get to search and type in "regedit" - it should be the first thing there
Navigate to the UAC registry setting - it is located here:
Computer\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies\System\EnableLUA
That setting (EnableLUA) should be of type "REG_DWORD" and the Data should be "0x00000000 (0)". If not, you didnt do the last step correctly. Redo it.
Double click on that and change the "Value data:" from 0 to 1.
This should also prompt you to restart. You definitely need to do this one.
After this, magically, you can run Metro apps and also not be nagged by UAC!
I haven't run in to any errors doing this, but I quite literally did it an hour ago. So far, no problems I can see.
Pseudonym117 said:
As I'm sure many people have discovered (at least if my searching about it is to be believed), Metro Apps - sorry - Windows 8 style apps, can not be run when UAC is turned off. They just yell at you and don't start.
This leaves one solution, turning on UAC. But, when you do that, those annoying little pop-ups appear any time you want to do anything useful on your computer with any non-built-in program. Seems like we can only choose one, right? Running Metro apps and being annoyed all the time or not being annoyed by UAC but not being able to use Metro apps.
Luckily, this isn't the case! This can be fixed, giving you the nice non-nagging of having UAC off and the convenience of running Metro apps! How, you ask? A very simple registry edit!
First, open up control panel and get to the UAC section
- I have no idea where this is, just search "UAC" in the top right bar of control panel, or easier yet, in the system search
Drag the slider down to "Never Notify"
It should ask you to restart. You MAY not need to, but I haven't tried it. I recommend restarting.
Next, open up the registry editor.
- just press windows+q to get to search and type in "regedit" - it should be the first thing there
Navigate to the UAC registry setting - it is located here:
Computer\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies\System\EnableLUA
That setting (EnableLUA) should be of type "REG_DWORD" and the Data should be "0x00000000 (0)". If not, you didnt do the last step correctly. Redo it.
Double click on that and change the "Value data:" from 0 to 1.
This should also prompt you to restart. You definitely need to do this one.
After this, magically, you can run Metro apps and also not be nagged by UAC!
I haven't run in to any errors doing this, but I quite literally did it an hour ago. So far, no problems I can see.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for this I was really starting to get annoyed at it. Not just because they are annoying little boxes but it also meant some of my startscreen links with run as didn't work I had to actively right click etc not so easy in 8.
I have UAC disabled on my desktop and laptop both running build 8400 and metro apps work fine, is this something new in RTM?
X10man
Sent from my U20i using xda premium
x10man said:
I have UAC disabled on my desktop and laptop both running build 8400 and metro apps work fine, is this something new in RTM?
X10man
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Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I believe so. I have the official RTM of the x64 Professional Edition (student licences are awesome), which is build 9200. From my searching, it did worked at one point and doesnt in the RTM.
I am also on the RTM pro x64 and turned off UAC first thing. I haven't had any problems with Metro apps.
Thanks for have made the world just a little less secure big time
Sent from my GT-S5360 using xda app-developers app
sireangelus said:
Thanks for have made the world just a little less secure big time
Sent from my GT-S5360 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
has anyone ever been so far as to decide what to do more like?
but srsly, if i actually know what you are saying (big if...), this shouldnt make windows any less secure than just turning UAC off would, as the registry change actually turns UAC back on, it doesnt just fake that it is on. It just doesnt have the annoying pop-up. metro apps are still sandboxed and not allowed administrator rights anyways.
excactly. so by finding a way users are not forced to have uac on, you make windows in general less secure, because these are MEANT to obbligate people to have uac on.
What I don't get is why this workaround is required in the first place... the first time I got a UAC notification I went to settings and turned it off. Haven't had a problem since.
sireangelus said:
excactly. so by finding a way users are not forced to have uac on, you make windows in general less secure, because these are MEANT to obbligate people to have uac on.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
sure, but i dont like UAC yelling at me. as such, i want it off. i dont care when programs are trying to do something they need administrator permission to do, because i know what i download and what it does.
Pseudonym117 said:
sure, but i dont like UAC yelling at me. as such, i want it off. i dont care when programs are trying to do something they need administrator permission to do, because i know what i download and what it does.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly. UAC is meant for people who have no idea what they are doing when it comes to Windows system-wise. If they don't know what programs do what it is useful to deny something they didn't request.
JihadSquad said:
Exactly. UAC is meant for people who have no idea what they are doing when it comes to Windows system-wise. If they don't know what programs do what it is useful to deny something they didn't request.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if you dont know what you are doing, NEVER OPEN THE REGISTRY EDITOR.
Tell that to people annoyed that use Google
Sent from my GT-S5360 using xda app-developers app
I honestly don't know what all the fuss about UAC is, theres almost no lag any more, it doesn't have to dim, and if set correctly doesn't nag about every little thing.
For all those that feel that the world is a 100% safe place to live and work, good for you, keep it turned off, for everyone else with a interest in helping the wider community stay safe, just keep it on yeah, worms and viruses don't typically jump up and say they are about to install so any prompt for programs doing stuff with higher level privileges is good in my book.
I do a lot of stuff on my computers, id say im fairly well clued up as to what im doing but I for one like the UAC pop up, why? because you cant possibly know that every little program is safe. with UAC on, you can turn it way down but leave it on still meaning any program that requires admin rights (which shouldn't be many) has to ask me.
Yes I do know that if run something it may trigger the response, yes I do know what im running, but you are all naïve to assume that bad things never happen
One other thing, I have no AV software at al, beyond what comes with windows, I run periodic off line scans which are all clear, why is that? because I have a properly setup 2 way firewall, I know what im doing, and I know what the programs are trying to do, for all you lot that turn UAC off, you cant possibly know what programs are doing with admin rights without your knowledge.
Pseudonym117 said:
As I'm sure many people have discovered (at least if my searching about it is to be believed), Metro Apps - sorry - Windows 8 style apps, can not be run when UAC is turned off. They just yell at you and don't start.
This leaves one solution, turning on UAC. But, when you do that, those annoying little pop-ups appear any time you want to do anything useful on your computer with any non-built-in program. Seems like we can only choose one, right? Running Metro apps and being annoyed all the time or not being annoyed by UAC but not being able to use Metro apps.
Luckily, this isn't the case! This can be fixed, giving you the nice non-nagging of having UAC off and the convenience of running Metro apps! How, you ask? A very simple registry edit!
First, open up control panel and get to the UAC section
- I have no idea where this is, just search "UAC" in the top right bar of control panel, or easier yet, in the system search
Drag the slider down to "Never Notify"
It should ask you to restart. You MAY not need to, but I haven't tried it. I recommend restarting.
Next, open up the registry editor.
- just press windows+q to get to search and type in "regedit" - it should be the first thing there
Navigate to the UAC registry setting - it is located here:
Computer\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies\System\EnableLUA
That setting (EnableLUA) should be of type "REG_DWORD" and the Data should be "0x00000000 (0)". If not, you didnt do the last step correctly. Redo it.
Double click on that and change the "Value data:" from 0 to 1.
This should also prompt you to restart. You definitely need to do this one.
After this, magically, you can run Metro apps and also not be nagged by UAC!
I haven't run in to any errors doing this, but I quite literally did it an hour ago. So far, no problems I can see.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Enabling UAC is not an option for me.
What you do to get the Metro apps "magically" start is absolutely no magic. You turn UAC back on.
To salve this problem, and yet keep UAC disabled, make sure EnableLUA is still "0"
Then make sure your user account is a member of the local Administrator group.
then goto Run > secpol.msc > Local Policies > Security Settings > Security Options >
User Account Control: Run all administrators in Admin Approval Mode > Enable
Reboot
And the Metro Apps will work while UAC is still disabled.
Seems to be quite the day for "power users"
Your approach is overly complex, and doesn't actually do what you think it does.
Iceberger said:
Enabling UAC is not an option for me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It deeply disturbs me that people like you exist, and use the Internet. You *appear* competent in the rest of your post, and yet say things like this... Running as root/Admin was known to be a bad idea 20 years ago. Do you think antivirus will protect you when somebody uses a 0-day to turn your PC into a spam-spewing, DDoS-ing zombie in a botnet?
If you absolutely must avoid seeing UAC prompts, but still want at least a sliver of security, take the following approach instead:
1: Enable UAC if you previously disabled it (set it to whatever level you want except "never prompt" which actually turns it off entirely; we're about to override the prompting).
2. secpol.msc (you can just type it into Start, incidentally).
3. Local Policies -> Security Options (like you said).
4. Open the "Behavior of the elevation prompt for administrators in Admin Approval Mode" item.
5. Select "Elevate without prompting" and hit OK.
Behold, Metro apps work but software still runs with limited permissions by default. You can elevate things if you want to; still no prompt. You can even set them to always elevate using the Compatibility tab, if needed. No rebooting required at all. Still less secure than requiring approval to elevate - apps (including malware) can simply and invisibly elevate themselves when in this configuration - but at least stuff that assumes it is already admin won't work.
The real kicker is below, though...
Iceberger said:
What you do to get the Metro apps "magically" start is absolutely no magic. You turn UAC back on.
To salve this problem, and yet keep UAC disabled, make sure EnableLUA is still "0"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Emphasis on "appear" above. To somebody unfamiliar with Windows, you sound like you know what you're doing, but that secpol switch you flip (the one called "Run all Administrators...")? That's the master key for UAC. You just went through an excessively complicated set of steps to turn UAC on in the least intrusive manner, when all it took was changing the one policy I listed above.
GoodDayToDie said:
Your approach is overly complex, and doesn't actually do what you think it does.
It deeply disturbs me that people like you exist, and use the Internet. You *appear* competent in the rest of your post, and yet say things like this... Running as root/Admin was known to be a bad idea 20 years ago. Do you think antivirus will protect you when somebody uses a 0-day to turn your PC into a spam-spewing, DDoS-ing zombie in a botnet?
If you absolutely must avoid seeing UAC prompts, but still want at least a sliver of security, take the following approach instead:
1: Enable UAC if you previously disabled it (set it to whatever level you want except "never prompt" which actually turns it off entirely; we're about to override the prompting).
2. secpol.msc (you can just type it into Start, incidentally).
3. Local Policies -> Security Options (like you said).
4. Open the "Behavior of the elevation prompt for administrators in Admin Approval Mode" item.
5. Select "Elevate without prompting" and hit OK.
Behold, Metro apps work but software still runs with limited permissions by default. You can elevate things if you want to; still no prompt. You can even set them to always elevate using the Compatibility tab, if needed. No rebooting required at all. Still less secure than requiring approval to elevate - apps (including malware) can simply and invisibly elevate themselves when in this configuration - but at least stuff that assumes it is already admin won't work.
The real kicker is below, though...
Emphasis on "appear" above. To somebody unfamiliar with Windows, you sound like you know what you're doing, but that secpol switch you flip (the one called "Run all Administrators...")? That's the master key for UAC. You just went through an excessively complicated set of steps to turn UAC on in the least intrusive manner, when all it took was changing the one policy I listed above.
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Let me start with this
"It deeply disturbs me that people like you exist" wtf are you, god?
Is my post so difficult to understand? guess for you it does, you suggest I want UAC on, No, I want it off, out, disabled. clear?
To secure Windows I use other 3rd party programs (that work) to do the job. UAC is just as annoying as you.
No I'm not a god, but I am a computer security professional, as well as a volunteer tech support provider. People who make claims such as the one you did above make my job a lot harder, and are responsible for a lot of harm in the world. I hold MS partially responsible for this, as it was their stupidity in making the first account created an Admin by default which led people down this path (well, that and making an OS without user permissions at all) but at least they're trying to correct those past mistakes (discontinuing Win9x for the latter and adding UAC for the former). I do not appreciate (and will call out) people trying to revert this progress!
Your post is logically inconsistent. You insist that you want UAC off, then you go and enable *THE* security policy that that turns it on again. I didn't suggest that you "want" it on at all; I merely stated that you are so unfamiliar with how Windows works that you turned it on yourself. Apparently, you also have trouble with reading comprehension.
Perhaps you are confused about the difference between UAC (the entire feature that is a component of the Windows NT 6.x security system, and includes split tokens, Admin Approval Mode, and elevation prompts, among other things) and the particular sub-component that is the elevation prompts caused by Admin Approval Mode being configured to require approval before granting a full-security token? I can understand (although I do not agree with) the desire to modify this configuration. That is why I provided the steps to do so. Do not confuse them (or what you yourself did) with disabling UAC as a whole, however!
I'd *love* to hear of a third-party program that "works" to secure a Windows machine running as Admin against zero-day threats. Really, I would. You could write a bloody PhD dissertation out of such a piece of software, because that's currently believed to be literally impossible. Windows RT can't do it, AppLocker can't do it, and you can be quite sure that third parties can't do it, not and leave anything that can still be called "Windows" behind.
Even running as a non-Admin isn't going to fully secure the machine; where a zero-day in a user process won't be able to compromise the machine by itself, it could still do quite a bit of harm, and if there's a second vulnerability providing EoP from user to admin or kernel, or if the zero-day is in a high-privilege process already, then you're screwed. There's *still* no software, third-party or otherwise, that will protect you against such things though. The best you can do is defense in depth. In order of increasing (low to high) importance:
1. use multiple firewalls (such as a hardware firewall)
2. use frequently-updated anti-virus (ranked low because it's an inherently reactive defense, not a proactive one)
3. use an OS with strong exploit mitigations (pretty much anything since XP, though they keep getting better)
4. avoid monoculture (if there are multiple equally secure options, it's best to use the least-used one... but be aware that the lesser-used options are not always secure even if they get exploited less frequently)
5. patch regularly and promptly
6. limit your attack surface (disable features and plugins you don't need, block ads, etc.)
7. don't run as Admin
8. use sandboxed applications (on Windows, this requires not running as full Admin).
Items 7 and 8 are part of a core tenet of security, the principle of least privilege. It has been applied to computer security for decades (ever hear of a system called MULTICS? It was all about this, with eight different hardware-enforced levels of privilege. Modern PCs have four such levels, and most OSes only use two of them). It applies in the real world as well; you may be familiar with the concept of "need to know"? Assume everything *could* act maliciously, and limit the damage it could cause if it does.
There are more items which I could add to the list to provide even greater security, such as using virtualization for untrusted software (basically a bigger sandbox), or air-gapping vital systems, or so on. That's beyond the scope of what most people can reasonably be expected to do with a personal computing device, though. Also, note that this isn't a "if you do X, you don't have to do X-1" list; running AV is still a good idea, even though the actual degree of protection provided is low.
Also, that all is for protection against attacks which don't require the user doing something stupid (except for turning off the protection...). For defenses against things like Trojans, AV becomes more important, but the really critical element there is simply "be smart about security" (which sadly is apparently beyond most people, given the stuff I see every day).
This is getting off-topic; the methods required to achieve the stated goal have been given.
GoodDayToDie said:
No I'm not a god, but I am a computer security professional, as well as a volunteer tech support provider.
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people volunteer to do tech support? never thought anyone would do that willingly...
also, have a question for you. what is your opinion on the built in windows 8 antivirus? i know if there is an exploit, it is much more likely to be exploited than in other AVs, but as far as known virus/trojan protection, does it do as good of a job as other, less free antiviruses?
Wait wait... I have UAC disabled and I didn't edit any registry or policy settings, and apps work fine for me. What's this about them not working?
So you're in Metro, sry Modern UI, right-click on a program and it brings up various options all in the modern UI style, however once you select uninstall, it takes you back to the old style of Windows to do the dirty work. I am the only one to find this strange?
Doesn't happen on RTM. Everything stays in Metro.
Whattt?
If you uninstall a Windows Store (Metro) app, it uninstalls immediately from the Start screen.
If you uninstall a desktop app, it will switch to the desktop and uninstall like any other desktop app always did.
If your Metro apps are kicking you to the desktop to uninstall, then that's just not correct. lol
prjkthack said:
Whattt?
If you uninstall a Windows Store (Metro) app, it uninstalls immediately from the Start screen.
If you uninstall a desktop app, it will switch to the desktop and uninstall like any other desktop app always did.
If your Metro apps are kicking you to the desktop to uninstall, then that's just not correct. lol
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I'm talking about a desktop app, but viewed from the Metro screen, it just seems strange the OS switches interfaces, surely all the required functionality could be performed in Metro, it doesn't lead to a consistent user experience, IMO.
Turbotab said:
I'm talking about a desktop app, but viewed from the Metro screen, it just seems strange the OS switches interfaces, surely all the required functionality could be performed in Metro, it doesn't lead to a consistent user experience, IMO.
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There's no choice. Uninstallers are often custom executables which need to do a whole bunch of stuff, exclusive for each installation.
Uninstallers are tailor-made by app developers.
Turbotab said:
I'm talking about a desktop app, but viewed from the Metro screen, it just seems strange the OS switches interfaces, surely all the required functionality could be performed in Metro, it doesn't lead to a consistent user experience, IMO.
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Actually, it is totally consistent.
I would expect that an app that runs on the desktop will also perform its uninstallation on the desktop. After all, desktop apps are not installed the same way as a Metro app, so it certainly would not uninstall using the Metro-method. A desktop app can be installed in numerous ways, using the various installation processes and applications available for many of year.
I expect that a Metro app would uninstall within the Metro interface.
I hate this idea (and its MS fault for explaining it all badly) that the start menu is a new interface and thus separate from the desktop. Its just a new start screen it fills the screen instead of being a small clumsy list. Metro Apps run side by side with the desktop its not 2 separate things and I think this is why there is so much confusion. People seem to think you either work in one or the other when you still work the same as you always have just with an added layer of functionality. This means that using the old style uninstaller is no more strange then the hole of control panel still being in the "old" style. I love that it gives you a direct link not only to Programs and Features but also has the specific app highlighted.
lumpaywk said:
I hate this idea (and its MS fault for explaining it all badly) that the start menu is a new interface and thus separate from the desktop. Its just a new start screen it fills the screen instead of being a small clumsy list. Metro Apps run side by side with the desktop its not 2 separate things and I think this is why there is so much confusion. People seem to think you either work in one or the other when you still work the same as you always have just with an added layer of functionality. This means that using the old style uninstaller is no more strange then the hole of control panel still being in the "old" style. I love that it gives you a direct link not only to Programs and Features but also has the specific app highlighted.
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MS are to blame but a sizable portion of the blame lies with people who feel the need to spread FUD and those willing to believe that FUD without confirming it for themselves. And as this very website as seen for its self, those individuals that feel the need to make crap up and slag off win 8 / wp8 are often android users, not always, and im not generalising, but from my experience Linux based platform users (desktop and mobile) tend to be the most anti- everything-to-do-with-MS people I have ever had the miss fortune in talking to.
in saying that, I whole heartedly agree with you that MS has done almost nothing to combat that
So after searching google and pretty much everywhere, I STILL haven't been able to find a clear answer on multitasking.
In wp7 I hated the fact that every single time I would open an app, it would restart from the beginning. Yes, I know you could hold the back button and then click on an app to go back to where you were, but I don't like doing that. I'm used to android where I can just click on any app from the home screen and it'll take me right back to where I left off.
A month ago I tried the lumia 900 and took it back after 2 days because of this. In WP8, I heard they brought real multitasking, but I still haven't been able to find a clear answer to my question...if I'm in an app, go back to homescreen, and then click on the app from the homescreen again, will it restart the app (where it looks like you opened it for the first time after a reboot), or will it put me right back where I left off?
Also, is there a good google voice or youtube app yet? I was using govoice but hated the fact that I actually had to open the app to see if I had any new messages.
Thanks.
I believe apps can be coded to fast resume from the home screen. I think the Facebook app does this but I havent tried it. Apps would need to be updated to add this support tho
from what ive read its possible but the current apps that are out have to be updated to add that feature
It depends on the app.
There is really no way around it.
The Android multitasking is unnatural. In windows/linux/whatever, when you press the icon of an application, it usually opens a new window.
WP8 has a feature Fast App resume, the app needs to be updated to make this feature work, you can read about it here
http://mindre.net/Article/Windows_Phone_8_Fast_app_resume
There is no true multitasking in WP8 except for Navigational apps AFAIK.
Well then, no wp8 for me. Thanks guys.
DirectX games also do not stop updating in the background.
Never seen the fuss around multitasking. The multitasking model works as far as I can see on most devices. You background a music player and it carries on playing.
iOS's system used to annoy, double clicking, touch and hold followed by repeatedly closing apps.
On Windows Mobile people used to complain about the close button not closing the application (it would run in the background). Now when you do close an application people are moaning it doesn't run in the background.
deadwrong03 said:
from what ive read its possible but the current apps that are out have to be updated to add that feature
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this confused me... why does the app need any update, when its the OS that does all the fore/back ground stuff? did I misunderstand you?
I'll agree with the op , Microsoft needs to clarify what its new OS does in the commercials instead of a dance routine.
ohgood said:
this confused me... why does the app need any update, when its the OS that does all the fore/back ground stuff? did I misunderstand you?
I'll agree with the op , Microsoft needs to clarify what its new OS does in the commercials instead of a dance routine.
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Simple, a phone is a battery operated device which needs a more careful considered approach to multitasking.
When you background a game that is running what should happen? (a) it carries on running, (b) it pauses or (c) it saves its state and closes down.
You have to ask yourself these sort of questions when building the application for a phone, the OS can't make that decision since it doesn't know what is the correct answer. So profiles are added to the OS and the developer of the OS selects one of these profiles.
So a downloading tool would continue to download, a music player would play music in the background, a game would pause or save state and an IM client would either carry on being connected or switch to push notification.
ohgood said:
this confused me... why does the app need any update, when its the OS that does all the fore/back ground stuff? did I misunderstand you?
I'll agree with the op , Microsoft needs to clarify what its new OS does in the commercials instead of a dance routine.
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Click to collapse
One of the reason you are even considering the WP vs Android fight is due to multitasking.
Android has "real multitasking" and that makes it unstable, prone to random crashes, and generally not as smooth as WP.
On top of that, the WP environment does not allow for applications to do things behind your back. Your privacy is more secure with WP than it is with Android, and i like that.
mcosmin222 said:
Android has "real multitasking" and that makes it unstable, prone to random crashes, and generally not as smooth as WP.
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Do people still actually believe this?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
vetvito said:
Do people still actually believe this?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Click to collapse
Those who have a clue...yes.
The correct answer is "both"
Regarding the question about resume vs relaunch, to the best of my recollection from reading the WP8 SDK notes 12 days ago, the answer is as follows:
1. Existing apps written for WP7 will continue to work as-is. That is, launching the app tosses away the app's back stack and gives the user a "fresh" copy of the app.
2. Apps written for WP8 can indicate that they support resume on relaunch in their "manifest" file. When this is NOT indicated, the WP8 app behaves as the WP7 apps do: launching an app launches a fresh copy; backing into an app reconnects you to that app's back stack/history.
3. When a WP8 app indicates that it can handle resume on relaunch, the already running app is brought to the front, reconnected to its back stack, and has the main page of the app pushed on to the back stack. It is up to the developer of the app to decide which of three things happen at this point:
3a. Blow away the previous back stack (to simulate WP7 behavior);
3b. Pop off the "main page" item that the OS just pushed onto the back stack to effectively return the user to the last viewed page in the app;
3c. Neither, leaving a fresh copy of the main page in screen and the old back stack still present. This is a bad idea because it looks like the user restarted, but the old context is still there.
I'm at an airport now and don't have access to my dev box or SDK docs. Someone with such access can likley find the information in the WP8 SDK documentation (although not on the "What's New" page).
thanks manicotti.. that's the best explanation yet.
that other guy that above that wanted to argue about stuff... I just don't know what to say.
Look here...
http://mindre.net/Article/Windows_Phone_8_Fast_app_resume
This might be the answer to you're question
Sent from my HTC Titan on Deepshining 2.0 Rom using Board Express
gilesjuk said:
On Windows Mobile people used to complain about the close button not closing the application (it would run in the background). Now when you do close an application people are moaning it doesn't run in the background.
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So true, so true.... I can still hear the HD2 user pool complaining...those were the golden days...
Side note: the "fast app resume" when launched from Start was actually possible on WP7, but its use wasn't permitted in the Marketplace (it's an option in one of the manifest files). Apparently that restriction is now lifted for WP8, but Marketplace apps that want to use it will need to be updated (very simple change, though) to set that option.
My biggest fear is that troubleshooting, and the hell hole of creating network drives, sharing permissions and all kinds of other thigns I had to do to stream my Media to my android and PS3 will just repeat itself or get worst if I upgrade.
What are the general experiences with media and directory sharing on Windows 8 vs Windows 7? Can you drop all of Microsoft's security mechanisms as a whole?
hm
write a simple script for your network file sharing, are you doing an upgrade or going from scratch?
buffalosolja42 said:
write a simple script for your network file sharing, are you doing an upgrade or going from scratch?
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Unsure about that. I would like to from scratch since if I do make the move to Windows 8 I will probably load it onto an SSD and have two HDDs for storage
Wrong forum, mate. This is Windows Phone 8. The Windows 8 forum is over there. Please ask a moderator to move this thread.
I was shocked with how stable Windows 7 is, it very rarely freezes or reboots etc.
I can't believe how often Windows 8 freezes, reboots, fails to start, can't diagnose startup problems or if it does, I do it 3 times and somehow it finds a problem on the third time, why is that?
I use exactly the same programs on each OS. I have used 8 preview, 8 and now 8.1 each one is unstable and creates problems. For a desktop user, it's a nightmare.
SharpnShiny said:
I was shocked with how stable Windows 7 is, it very rarely freezes or reboots etc.
I can't believe how often Windows 8 freezes, reboots, fails to start, can't diagnose startup problems or if it does, I do it 3 times and somehow it finds a problem on the third time, why is that?
I use exactly the same programs on each OS. I have used 8 preview, 8 and now 8.1 each one is unstable and creates problems. For a desktop user, it's a nightmare.
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Click to collapse
I have been running windows 8 on my daily use machine since the week it launched, not once has it frozen, rebooted or failed to boot. Nor have I heard of such prolific issues from anyone else
Honestly I threw 8.1 preview on one of two new boxes at home, 7 Ultimate on the other.
Both with SSD caching and boot times are similar. Performance also seems similar.
I got one copy of 8 for one system and one for the other.
Metro was made for touch screens (and is great with one) - but the box with 8 will never have it.
So I have it boot straight to desktop and I'll live on the desktop except for occasionally finding an app.
(Think I might look at that Pokki or other start menu alternatives..)
If you have a touch screen go 8. If you don't stick with 7...
According to me it is not up to the mark...... 7 is better may be future updates may change my attitude...
Sent from my Xperia U using xda app-developers app
I cannot find *one* thing superior in windows 7 to windows 8 bar the fact that driver signature enforcement is enabled (but can be disabled for a single boot if you need to install some drivers anyway, once installed an unsigned driver will work fine after a reboot).
Start button being absent like everyone complains about. Who seriously uses the start button? All it does is let you launch programs or shut the PC down. Well I can launch programs just fine from desktop (albeit I like a clean desktop so don't), task bar, start screen or via search. Search is easy to get to, hit the windows key to go to the start screen, start typing and it immediately searches for that program. Shutdown, I never shut down from the start bar anyway and haven't in years, Control-Alt-Delete, or charms bar > settings > Power > Shutdown. Or windows key + D to go to desktop (or the button on the task bar, or some other way that I don't care to mention) and hit alt-F4 and windows will prompt for shutdown. Admin functions like control panel etc, hold the windows key and press X, a menu appears where the start button used to reside and lists most useful functions immediately, or you can move the mouse into the bottom left so the button to go to the start screen appears and then right click it.
Metro/Start as they prefer to call it that (seriously, they dropped the metro name way before full release) you look at for all of 2 seconds. I have a tile on it to go to desktop, but prefer to use windows key + D. Other than that, I actually use it with tiles for my favourite programs neatly pinned to it.
The start button is archaic. I saw someone saying that its impossible to throw away years of using a start button, I honestly wondered who was still using it, it was hideous. I got my first PC when I was 8, 2002 if you must know. At the age of 8 you learn to do things 1 way and usually stick to that. Yet I got windows 8 shortly after release (it was still during the discounted price period) and adapted to the lack of start bar within an hour, prior to that I was a heavy computer user. There we go, 11/12 years of heavy computer usage with the start bar being present and I throw it out within an hour. That was so hard.
Things change. Deal with it. The start button has been with us for how long and it is finally old enough that it needs putting to rest. Once upon a time we only used "primitive" command line entry systems (many still do), many of those users were angry when the modern desktop appeared, now its commonplace.
SixSixSevenSeven;45816830 ...
Start button being absent like everyone complains about. Who seriously uses the start button?[/QUOTE said:
Are you serious?
Given that Windows 8 has been dubbed the new Vista by many major publications, computer experts and power PC users, and that one of the biggest complaints among these users and businesses in surveys and that feedback from multiple major global PC manufacturers from consumers that the Start Menu was one of their key issues, given that the largest computer manufactuer by sales - Lenovo has intervened and preinstalled the free Start Menu replacement Pokki on all new Windows 8 machines, given the sheer amount of questions on this site about the Start Menu, give the huge number of sales of 3rd party software that replace the missing Start Menu (such as Start8) I would say many, many, many of us use the Start Button and the Start Menu.
Logical error #1 'If I have no use for this, then no one else does' ...
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Vista came out six years ago. Huge numbers of people *still* actually go into a menu structure to find their programs instead of just typing a few letters of the program name or description or executable file name, then hitting Enter.
The only conclusion I've been able to draw from this is that the majority of computer users are, in effect, idiots. This seems somewhat unlikely, but I'm pretty sure that recognizing the advantages in speed and convenience do not require above-average intelligence, yet people still fail to take advantage of it.
The Start screen is irrelevant to me, aside from its segregation of search results (fixed in 8.1 anyhow). The demand for Start Menu replacements says an awful lot about the intelligence of the Windows userbase, more than about the quality of the OS in general. With that said, I will grant that the Windows devs may have screwed up by failing to take into consideration just how dumb their target market is (at least with regard to computers).
Educating them - on a grand scale, the way MS did for the Start button in Win95 - might work. It would be interesting to see. The MS of today seems completely incapable of effective marketing and communication compared to the Microsoft of yesteryear, though.
In my opinion, Windows 8 is a great system for what is under the hood. The system and startup is dramatically feature and has much more safety features built in. The fact that Microsoft built in Microsoft Security Essentials means that you no longer have to deal with anti-virus and firewall stuff and since it is built in, it doesnt slow down your system anymore is a bonus. Also, the new backup features, performance tools and task manager are greatly improves and much better then recent versions.
As for the metro (or "modern") garbage, If you are using your PC as umm.. a PC it is really un-needed and unnecesary but is easy to get rid of using third party apps to get you back to the Windows 7 style desktop. I currently use Startisback which also makes other desktop changes to get rid of metro completely. If you want apps, installed Google Chrome and use Google's new desktop apps. This would also make it much easier for Android users as everything pretty much syncs with the phone.
One small other "rant" make sure you use a uxtheme patcher and a visual style... whose idea at Microsoft was it to use black text in the window border but white text on the taskbar?
In my opinion that gives me the best of all worlds.
SharpnShiny said:
Are you serious?
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Actually I am. I find the idea of the start button to just be obsolete and the new system to be FASTER for power users who can be bothered to get their heads out of their asses and adapt to change.
SixSixSevenSeven said:
Actually I am. I find the idea of the start button to just be obsolete and the new system to be FASTER for power users who can be bothered to get their heads out of their asses and adapt to change.
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Yes because clicking then moving your hands to the keyboard then typing is so much better than click click and click.
Saves movement, saves time but I guess it's just obsolete
hakcenter said:
Yes because clicking then moving your hands to the keyboard then typing is so much better than click click and click.
Saves movement, saves time but I guess it's just obsolete
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Click to collapse
don't need the mouse to navigate windows 8 itself. See that lovely windows logo key, press it, takes you straight to the start screen where you can start typing. Want to get to the settings charm to shut down the pc, windows key + I, if you want you can even navigate that menu with the arrow keys but alternatively the icons are large so easy to hit with a nice imprecise high speed mouse movement. Windows key + X, opens a menu with things like control panel and device manager etc, in this list each item has a single character somewhere within the item name underscored, press thus character and it selects that menu option, Win + X and then C opens the command prompt for example. Very little mouse use is required, can do most things for windows 8 itself (except apps and desktop programs) with just a keyboard.
tp2215 said:
...
One small other "rant" make sure you use a uxtheme patcher and a visual style... whose idea at Microsoft was it to use black text in the window border but white text on the taskbar?
In my opinion that gives me the best of all worlds.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Could you recommend a uxtheme? You use it to restore some Windows 7 font/UI right? Do you restore glass/Aero? I've been using Start8 which I like a lot, but for the other features they really want you to pay at several gates...in the end, making Win8 look a bit more like Win 7 costs a small fortune with them.
edit - I just spotted the popular early mod of aero in 8 has come out of beta and is still free: http://glass8.berlios.de/
This update is really interesting...it's Aero Glass within a Win 8 framework...it's a curious UI mix.
SharpnShiny said:
Could you recommend a uxtheme? You use it to restore some Windows 7 font/UI right? Do you restore glass/Aero? I've been using Start8 which I like a lot, but for the other features they really want you to pay at several gates...in the end, making Win8 look a bit more like Win 7 costs a small fortune with them.
edit - I just spotted the popular early mod of aero in 8 has come out of beta and is still free: http://glass8.berlios.de/
This update is really interesting...it's Aero Glass within a Win 8 framework...it's a curious UI mix. *pets cat and ponders*
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For some great uxtheme just search around deviantart here is a good place to start http://www.deviantart.com/customization/skins/. There are lots of them scattered around that, if anything, will restore the look back to Windows 7. Most of them have versions that will also tie right into the aero mod that you mentioned. One word of advice though from expereince, if the pc wants to update, switch back to default style before restarting. Microsoft released several updates that seem to "softbrick' your pc if the patch is installed. It will just boot with a black screen and the only way to repair would be to refresh or system restore.
hakcenter said:
Yes because clicking then moving your hands to the keyboard then typing is so much better than click click and click.
Saves movement, saves time but I guess it's just obsolete
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Click to collapse
Just for the record, the keyboard is always faster than the mouse.
mcosmin222 said:
Just for the record, the keyboard is always faster than the mouse.
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Click to collapse
Not when you count time from shifting your hands from the mouse to the keyboard.
Like browsing the web, then you wanted to open up Photoshop well now your up crap Creek cause you can't just have a simple shortcut on the ready.
Anyone defending the missing power user feature of having a central location for common tasks is just sailing their boat to no where. Especially when you look at the fact the guy that pressed for 8 was fired... Yawn.
Watch the next windows brings it back then all you crazy dudes won't find a single utility to remove the menu cause it's just stupidity at it's finest.