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Yes, its true, HTC is officially abandoning the windows platform!
What next?
SOURCE:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/05/18/htc_new_strategy/
http://forum2.mobile-review.com/showthread.php?t=64741
UPDATE:
Sources are confirming the adoption of the linux platform or symbian platform. Its most probably not going to take massive shape this year, but by next year we will see a significant change.
^^ Sources
register article is referring to smartphone platform only! maybe pda platform will remain with MS...
ItalianTytan said:
register article is referring to smartphone platform only! maybe pda platform will remain with MS...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
"smartphone" is generally used also for devices with touchscreen...
I think HTC is afraid of MS doing again what they have done with the media players business: they used other hardware vendors to create market perception and later they went for their own product (Zune) with a different DRM and left the "PlaysForSure" clan with cold feet.
Now that Apple has its own branded phone Microsoft will have to have a MS branded phone soon and that could mean bye bye to HTC and the other vendors, so better jump ship before it's too late.
This announcement could also be only a warning to MS; at the moment HTC is practically the only company in the world that could throw a blow at Microsoft: without HTC the MS market share in smartphones would fall to a level of insignificance and they would have to rebuild their mobile phone market share from scratch.
Btw, is there any other OS than wm6 that we can port into right now like linux or something, I really love trying stuff like this out. Is there any way to put s60 v3 or even linux onto my trinity?
AkshayGenius said:
Btw, is there any other OS than wm6 that we can port into right now like linux or something, I really love trying stuff like this out. Is there any way to put s60 v3 or even linux onto my trinity?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's a Linux kernel out there somewhere - iPaQ 3900 was the last device I saw it working on eons ago...
AkshayGenius,
check Hermes forum, haret supports Trinity and semi-bootable kernel exists.
Doesn't boot completely on Hermes or Trinity so far.
hope some good UI os will come out soon!
i really dont wanna buy iphone..... unless HTC can come out better UI os...
anonimo said:
"smartphone" is generally used also for devices with touchscreen...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not really, in terms of Windows Mobile devices and WM5, you had the Pocket PC and Smartphone edition, the latter of which is on devices without touch screen e.g. HTC Meteor, Canary, Tanager etc.
I don't know if you mean "generally" as in all devices that are smartphonish on the market - you've got a lot that's not touch screen there too e.g. N95.
El_Mariachi said:
Not really, in terms of Windows Mobile devices and WM5, you had the Pocket PC and Smartphone edition, the latter of which is on devices without touch screen e.g. HTC Meteor, Canary, Tanager etc.
I don't know if you mean "generally" as in all devices that are smartphonish on the market - you've got a lot that's not touch screen there too e.g. N95.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
With "generally" I mean what you read in market researches. When you read about the Symbian market share that includes both S60 (no touchscreen) and UIQ (touchscreen) phones. Same goes for Windows Mobile.
The term "smartphone" was not invented by microsoft (did they ever invent anything? ) and it means "phone where you can install and use third party software beyond java applets" as opposed to "feature phone" where you can only use what is preinstalled in the phone (and only add Java applets).
So can anybody make an OS which I for ex can put on my p3600 for ex.
AkshayGenius said:
Yes, its true, HTC is officially abandoning the windows platform!
What next?
SOURCE:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/05/18/htc_new_strategy/
http://forum2.mobile-review.com/showthread.php?t=64741
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HTC has the best position in the market because of the Windows line. When they abandone the Windows platform, they give their market share to HP for example.
HTC also knows that Microsoft integrates everything from Office, Exchange, VOIP, Sharepoint to Live, etc.
Saying one thing and do some expirements with Linux, puts the pressure on Microsoft for nice deals (cheaper OS) for more HTC profit.
I haven't looked for other sources, but, a reading of the article hardly supports the assertion that HTC is "officially abandoning" WM. I mean, the ONLY quote just says they're "looking at" other OS's.
Talk about exaggeration.
i hope they turn to Linux, any exp coder will know that M$ is a piece of **** when it comes to resources, so look forward to faster, more stable phones. On the down side is the lack of app's supporting linux, but that said, the moment it becomes a reality, I'm there....
qubit76 said:
i hope they turn to Linux, any exp coder will know that M$ is a piece of **** when it comes to resources, so look forward to faster, more stable phones. On the down side is the lack of app's supporting linux, but that said, the moment it becomes a reality, I'm there....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Indeed so! BSD is now a reality on the iPhone - the mind boggles at how the market could look in 12 months. Mind you, I still prefer my Trinity to the iPhone but am particularly peeved that HTC haven't seen fit to officlally release WM6 for it.
LOL
WHY dont they contract with Ubuntu? make something like ubuntu mobile ??
LOL
than Iphone is ****ed.
qubit76 said:
i hope they turn to Linux, any exp coder will know that M$ is a piece of **** when it comes to resources, so look forward to faster, more stable phones. On the down side is the lack of app's supporting linux, but that said, the moment it becomes a reality, I'm there....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If HTC would evolve a bit and embrace the 3rd party app model present on the iPhone, enhance it a bit and add support for fetching data from hardware components like gps modules, not like java, but something like Adobe® AIR™ for mobile devices with offline capabilities, that would be great foe everybody, most of the apps we use are for improving/replacing the poorly designed windows mobile apps&interface, other can be fully replaced by web apps, codewallet for example, imagine it with offline and online modes, sync between both, and you have your passwords accessible on any device or desktop, multimedia editing is also possible using flash and server-side code, like picnik.com, so, it would be necessary to create new apps, but this new model would be far better than the current one, it would also eliminate the need for manual app updating, it would... heh, make cracking impossible, so, good for the devs for that and also for the easier&cheaper development(VS not needed, html+css+flash+javascript+rails[heh ]), it would also give HTC the freedom to create a sleek GUI(compiz and stuff?) since its easier to replace the linux gui than wmobile, no licensing fees from ms i think.
ericlin0122 said:
LOL
WHY dont they contract with Ubuntu? make something like ubuntu mobile ??
LOL
than Iphone is ****ed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ha Ha Haaaa... I like that
Lets all bombard the ubuntu guyz with emails demanding a mobile version of ubuntu for ppc and all then finally we'll get what we want!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YEA!
ericlin0122 said:
LOL
WHY dont they contract with Ubuntu? make something like ubuntu mobile ??
LOL
than Iphone is ****ed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Funny you should say that. Have a look at this: http://www.wired.com/software/coolapps/news/2007/07/iphoney. In the article it mentions just this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded.
So Ubuntu mobile coming in October. As soon as a good GPS navigation software release for Ubuntu comes out - I'm trying it.
What do you think WinMo 7 is going to be like? Do you trust Microsoft to not screw it up? Do you think HTC will really give us a free update for our Leos?
I think it would be fantastic if they released a Beta version for the public to test like with Windows 7, but it doesn't seem like that's going to happen, which makes me nervous.
Hopefully the Zune team has a say in the design, cause they seem to have their **** together.
I'm guessing it's going to be a combination between WM 6.5, Android, Iphone OS and Zune. Honestly I'm hoping for something revolutionary.
MS didn't mess up Windows 7 so there's no reason to think WM7 will be any different.
Think positive.
I think a beta test would be positive for them anyways, especially to beat down all the rumors and to give people a reason to wait/want those WinMo devices, guaranteeing the availability of WinMo phones by the time it releases to the world in final form.
If they don't act swift in these times there would be no manufacturer left to distribute to and it would pretty much be at the brink of death (= even more pressure)..
However, once they bring out a public beta, IPhone OS and Android might actually get inspired by it and anticipate before it is even released, making it less spectacular.
Yep, there are two sides on this.. I hope it'll be as revolutionary as they are implying.
laserviking said:
Do you trust Microsoft to not screw it up? Do you think HTC will really give us a free update for our Leos?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No and definitely no.
I hope MS knocks it out of the park. But, I don't understand how they are going to leverage all of the legacy apps and their ugly interfaces and some new-age GUI.
If they decide to kill off all the old stuff and start fresh, then it technically isn't Windows Mobile anymore because none of the 1000's of WM apps will be compatible. Maybe there will be some sort of compatibility mode for the old stuff?
All of the "iPhone killers" died because of the following reasons:
1) No iTunes. Nowadays, services are more crucial to sucess than hardware specs. Direct-to-device music, movies and books is a killer feature.
2) User-experience less than iPhone's. The iPhones killer feature is it's fluidity and lightning fast response of it's GUI. You can't hate such speed.
3) Single form factor. Developers know how their apps will behave whereas WM apps have to cater to the various types of WM phones. Screen resolution, graphics acceleration, d-pad, optical mouse, fingerprint sensor, accelerometer, touchscreen, keyboard ? All of these options hinder software development for WM.
Microsoft is the only company that can battle Apple on all three fronts right away. For services they have Zune, Bing mobile, for gaming XBox, Windows Live/MyPhone, Exchange, Office, Windows Desktop. All of this needs to be thoroughly incorporated into its WM7 platform.
I just hope MS doesn't market WM7 as some cheap alternative to iPhone. WM7 needs to be a great OS GUI-wise but also offer services equivalent to iTunes on a super-powerful hardware platform with no less than cutting edge specs. It appears MS is on this path but I don't know how great the end product is going to be. My fingers are crossed.
OMG can we please close this? Totally useless speculation.
If you have no clue, just don't post. I know a lot but I won't tell you anything, just wait for MWC and stop the silly speculation.
EDIT: WhyBe, your post is actually very intelligent. That's why I'll give you a hint: Trust MS to do exactly what you expect
(though not all is perfect)
Oh and @Shasarak: I told you before, but I will tell you again: Ruling out any possibility without actually having a clue is stupid
You always pretend to know what you're talking about, but you actually know nothing at all. And, you know, drawing conclusions from nothing at all is just silly. Much more so than those speculators who at least admit that they've got no clue.
Freyberry you are one wound up dude. It's pretty normal to speculate on this kind of thing and hope that there will be change for the better. Given WinMo's awful track record and Windows recent push for usability everyone is speculating how it's gonna be.
"I know a lot but I won't tell you anything"... I'm getting flashbacks to the school playground here
mark0326 said:
MS didn't mess up Windows 7 so there's no reason to think WM7 will be any different.
Think positive.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Basically this.
Also, Microsoft hasn't messed anything up since Windows Vista.
Microsoft is on a hot streak right now, and I don't see any reason that should end anytime soon. Ballmer even beat Jobs to the punch with tablets.
And not only did Ballmer beat Jobs [to the punch], he punched harder too.
The only thing Apple et cetera has going for them at the moment is populism. People like Apple and they don't like Microsoft, probably because Apple tries to make tech appeal to the lowest common denominator, whereas Microsoft makes tech appeal to the enthusiast, while giving the lowest common denominator sufficient attention that they'll be at least able to passably use whatever product is in-question.
WhyBe said:
I hope MS knocks it out of the park. But, I don't understand how they are going to leverage all of the legacy apps and their ugly interfaces and some new-age GUI.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Look at Windows and Internet Explorer.
Microsoft is positively the master of backwards compatibility.
WhyBe said:
If they decide to kill off all the old stuff and start fresh, then it technically isn't Windows Mobile anymore because none of the 1000's of WM apps will be compatible. Maybe there will be some sort of compatibility mode for the old stuff?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So is Windows 7 not Windows because 16-bit Windows 3.1 apps won't run on it?
Not saying at all that Microsoft will kill of backwards compatibility. The Windows Mobile family is just too new for us to see backwards compatibility die off -- at least if Microsoft sticks with their current paradigm.
Windows was backwards-compatible with Windows 3.1 for over 17 years.
WhyBe said:
[/B]1) No iTunes. Nowadays, services are more crucial to sucess than hardware specs. Direct-to-device music, movies and books is a killer feature.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you're insinuating that Microsoft should do anything like iTunes, then I suggest that you just get out right now. iTunes is an example of everything a device experience shouldn't be. The ActiveSync paradigm is brilliant -- an application to sync your device if you want, with your device retaining the ability to act on its own.
iTunes isn't about user experience, it's about locking you in, and that's the biggest strength Microsoft products in general have -- you can do whatever you want.
WhyBe said:
2) User-experience less than iPhone's. The iPhones killer feature is it's fluidity and lightning fast response of it's GUI. You can't hate such speed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Look at Windows 7. They're knocking the ball out of the park on GUI design these days, just look at the massive steps forward from 6.1 to 6.5, and now to 6.5.3.
And, they're taking their time on Windows Mobile 7. I'd rather wait and get something great than something that's rushed out of the gates.
WhyBe said:
3) Single form factor. Developers know how their apps will behave whereas WM apps have to cater to the various types of WM phones. Screen resolution, graphics acceleration, d-pad, optical mouse, fingerprint sensor, accelerometer, touchscreen, keyboard ? All of these options hinder software development for WM.[/I]
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, I suggest you just get out right now. Go buy your Apple products and enjoy your "single form factor". Microsoft doesn't play this game. You buy Windows, you don't buy a Microsoft computer, you buy Exchange, you don't buy a Microsoft mail server.
Their biggest strength is the fact that they don't have a single form factor. They do what they're good at -- software design -- and let the hardware designers do what they're good at.
WhyBe said:
Microsoft is the only company that can battle Apple on all three fronts right away. For services they have Zune, Bing mobile, for gaming XBox, Windows Live/MyPhone, Exchange, Office, Windows Desktop. All of this needs to be thoroughly incorporated into its WM7 platform.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, if you want Apple-like lock-in, go play with an iPhone. I doubt Microsoft is going to go this route, and if they do, they'll lose me as a customer. The strength of Windows and Microsoft products is the fact that you're not locked in. You're given an operating system and you're free to do whatever you want with it.
If you want someone to tell you how to do what you want to do with your device, rather than merely giving you the choice, go bend over for Steve Jobs.
Get out.
WhyBe said:
services equivalent to iTunes
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You mean lock-in?
If you're insinuating that Microsoft should do anything like iTunes, then I suggest that you just get out right now. iTunes is an example of everything a device experience shouldn't be. The ActiveSync paradigm is brilliant -- an application to sync your device if you want, with your device retaining the ability to act on its own.
^^^^^zune marketplace says hello
I certain hope there's no 'itunes' or 'single form factor', unless it's going to be their Zune phone, which I won't be buying.
I'm probably not who the new phone OSes are designed for. I just want to be able to copy files directly to it, use it for what I need, don't want to share data with them, don't really use social networks.
Spike15 said:
Basically this.
Also, Microsoft hasn't messed anything up since Windows Vista.
Microsoft is on a hot streak right now, and I don't see any reason that should end anytime soon. Ballmer even beat Jobs to the punch with tablets.
And not only did Ballmer beat Jobs [to the punch], he punched harder too.
The only thing Apple et cetera has going for them at the moment is populism. People like Apple and they don't like Microsoft, probably because Apple tries to make tech appeal to the lowest common denominator, whereas Microsoft makes tech appeal to the enthusiast, while giving the lowest common denominator sufficient attention that they'll be at least able to passably use whatever product is in-question.
Look at Windows and Internet Explorer.
Microsoft is positively the master of backwards compatibility.
So is Windows 7 not Windows because 16-bit Windows 3.1 apps won't run on it?
Not saying at all that Microsoft will kill of backwards compatibility. The Windows Mobile family is just too new for us to see backwards compatibility die off -- at least if Microsoft sticks with their current paradigm.
Windows was backwards-compatible with Windows 3.1 for over 17 years.
If you're insinuating that Microsoft should do anything like iTunes, then I suggest that you just get out right now. iTunes is an example of everything a device experience shouldn't be. The ActiveSync paradigm is brilliant -- an application to sync your device if you want, with your device retaining the ability to act on its own.
iTunes isn't about user experience, it's about locking you in, and that's the biggest strength Microsoft products in general have -- you can do whatever you want.
Look at Windows 7. They're knocking the ball out of the park on GUI design these days, just look at the massive steps forward from 6.1 to 6.5, and now to 6.5.3.
And, they're taking their time on Windows Mobile 7. I'd rather wait and get something great than something that's rushed out of the gates.
Again, I suggest you just get out right now. Go buy your Apple products and enjoy your "single form factor". Microsoft doesn't play this game. You buy Windows, you don't buy a Microsoft computer, you buy Exchange, you don't buy a Microsoft mail server.
Their biggest strength is the fact that they don't have a single form factor. They do what they're good at -- software design -- and let the hardware designers do what they're good at.
Again, if you want Apple-like lock-in, go play with an iPhone. I doubt Microsoft is going to go this route, and if they do, they'll lose me as a customer. The strength of Windows and Microsoft products is the fact that you're not locked in. You're given an operating system and you're free to do whatever you want with it.
If you want someone to tell you how to do what you want to do with your device, rather than merely giving you the choice, go bend over for Steve Jobs.
Get out.
You mean lock-in?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well Said. The only problem is that people really beleive what apple says.
If one said RIM & blackbery i would sort of listened. but iPhone! it doesn't do multitasking it's not an OS, it's a frimware
I do believe that WM7 is gonna be something that we didn't even think about. i don't know, maybe bringing another dimention to the scrolling? Vertical + Horizontal + Depth? that would be cool.
btw, why do we think that WM7 will be blue?
anaadoul said:
btw, why do we think that WM7 will be blue?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lol! Blue always comes to my mind when I try to imagine WM7. Maybe because windows xp, vista and 7 are by default blue?
I wonder if WM7 will actually be black! like the zune hd interface. will be really cool!
laserviking said:
Freyberry you are one wound up dude. It's pretty normal to speculate on this kind of thing and hope that there will be change for the better. Given WinMo's awful track record and Windows recent push for usability everyone is speculating how it's gonna be.
"I know a lot but I won't tell you anything"... I'm getting flashbacks to the school playground here
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah school playground... lol, grow up, little child. Maybe I'm not allowed to tell you something? Ever thought about this simple fact?
I already told you too much. Just re-read my post, you'll see it contains a LOT of info.
And NO, I do NOT work for Microsoft, nor HTC.
About all the speculation: It's OK if you speculate what it will/won't be, but what is very annoying is when
a) people complain about things that are pure speculation
b) people pretend they know something by using words like "definitely", despite that they actually know nothing
@anaadoul @mightymn It will be blue/grey
(but only by default, cause it's very customizable)
Btw. those are worth watching:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC0cxzLhFqM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXfJZzeSZ0U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0typyfPG_4
@freyberry
In the absense of better information I'm happy to accept that you know 'stuff' and logically, if you do know 'stuff', you probably oughtn't to talk about it.
So in that spirit, if you were to randomly throw a dart at a calendar in the interests of picking a date - entirely at random - when the wider community might start seeing pre-release or beta versions appearing, what would be your hunch for where that random dart might land?
Nice topic, it is fun to hear what everybody expects from WM7
I am very confused about WM7... one day I am all happy and can't wait for WM7.. the next day I am not so sure about it anymore... MicroSoft can really go either way IMO.
At the best:
- Brilliant new OS: Nice looking UI, smooth, stable, NEW features the other OS's don't have, good services like Zune, Xbox Live, etc. But most important...
A GOOD APPSTORE.
If all goes wrong...:
- Minor update of 6.5.3, some small UI changes, Zune, Xbox Live.
-------------------------
In the end if I just look at my HTC HD2, and think very clearly: what is missing? I think of the following:
- HTC Sense is nice, but it just does not come together with WM. I would like it to become 'one'. HTC Sense can also get a little bit slow sometimes. I would prefer a HTC Sense in the styl of HTC Hero, with the widgets.
- I want perfect stability of the OS: no more crashes, no more lagging.
- I want more App Support. I want a decent official AppStore. I don't need 140.000 apps, but I want it to be a succes. So not like the current 'AppStore' which is dead.
That's it. Zune and Xbox Live support are not even so important to me. These 3 points I mentioned are a MUST for WM7. Now that I look at it, the iPhone has all of these 3 points. I guess in the end I can not escape the fact that the iPhone OS is brilliant. That plus the awesome hardware offered by the HTC HD2 will make it a beast.
And regarding if HTC will give us the update for free: I hope so, I thing the chances are 50/50. But even if they want some money for it, I will pay it. Up to 15 euro, not more.
Come on Microsoft, show us you can, like you did with Windows 7, Xbox 360 and Zune!
@Gustopher
Nicely put, but unfortunately, I can not give you any satisfying answer.
I have no access to pre-release/beta versions, therefore I can only hope that something will leak soon. I don't think there will be a public/official beta.
After MWC, they will give more people access to the software, which will increase the probability of a leak.
Let's hope we won't have to wait until HTC releases an official upgrade, cause you know how long that usually takes.
WM7 definitely looks good (and yes, I may use the word "definitely", cause I know it). But Microsoft is doing a "great" job at scattering confusing/contradictory pieces of information, thus I'm just as anxious as you to see all the pieces come together.
freyberry said:
@Gustopher
Nicely put, but unfortunately, I can not give you any satisfying answer.
I have no access to pre-release/beta versions, therefore I can only hope that something will leak soon. I don't think there will be a public/official beta.
After MWC, they will give more people access to the software, which will increase the probability of a leak.
Let's hope we won't have to wait until HTC releases an official upgrade, cause you know how long that usually takes.
WM7 definitely looks good (and yes, I may use the word "definitely", cause I know it). But Microsoft is doing a "great" job at scattering confusing/contradictory pieces of information, thus I'm just as anxious as you to see all the pieces come together.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Understood and thanks. If I were to try to paraphrase, your - let's call it a hunch - elements of the OS are coming together but it's not quite at alpha/beta stage...but could be relatively soon.
So maybe waiting is the best tactic...
Waiting is certainly the best tactic. However, I fear some of the most important questions will not be answered at MWC, at least not officially.
(I don't mean the UI, I mean core functionality/services/compatibility etc., cause that's what I don't know about and have lots of questions - that's the pieces I want to see come together)
Ah well, let's turn this into a wild speculation thread, shall we? Just let me get the popcorn first....
...OK, here we go:
ppcgeeks said:
-At the Mobile World Congress event on February 15th, 2010, Windows Phone 7 will be unveilved, although at this time plans are only to unveil the user interface of the new platform . Specific indepth functionality of the device will most likely not be shown.
-The User Interface is based upon codename “METRO”. It will be very similar to the Zune HD User Interface with a complete revamp of the “Start” screen. The UI is “Very Clean”, “Soulful” and “Alive” [<-- That I can confirm.]
-Unfortunately there will be no Flash support at the get go as there was not enough time to implement these features.
-Windows Phone 7 will only support application installation through service based delivery. (i.e Marketplace). Application installation via storage card will not be possible.
- No Multi-Task support. Applications will “Pause” when in the background, however will support notifications via push notifications.
-Marketplace will now support “try before you buy” as well as an API
-No NETCF backwards compatibility. This means the original rumor of no backward compatibility for applications holds to be true. That being said, there are high hopes of porting the NetCF to the newer platform easily.
-Microsoft is confident that devices will be ready by September 2010
-Full Zune Integration
-Windows Mobile Device Center will no longer be used. Zune software to take over syncing via PC.
-OEM Interfaces will not be allowed to run on the device. Say goodbye to Sense UI / SPB Mobile Shell / Point UI / Infinity, etc, etc
-Full XBOX Gaming Integration (Gamer tag, achievements, friends, avatars, merchandising, etc)
-Full support for social networking
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Source: http://www.ppcgeeks.com/2010/02/06/...ndows-phone-7-details-emerge-from-the-depths/
Flame on! Hahahaha...
freyberry said:
Waiting is certainly the best tactic. However, I fear some of the most important questions will not be answered at MWC, at least not officially.
(I don't mean the UI, I mean core functionality/services/compatibility etc., cause that's what I don't know about and have lots of questions - that's the pieces I want to see come together)
Ah well, let's turn this into a wild speculation thread, shall we? Just let me get the popcorn first....
...OK, here we go:
Source: http://www.ppcgeeks.com/2010/02/06/...ndows-phone-7-details-emerge-from-the-depths/
Flame on! Hahahaha...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i don't like that!
let's hope it's not true! i have always loved WM because it's so open.
no .net cf?! no way, this will mean loosing the whole developers community! i disagree with you i'm afraid
@freyberry
how can you tell all this? i'm close to MS here in my region and they didn't say anything and not willing to, notice that they support WindowsPhoneMiddleEast Community which i lead (look at my signature).
Barnes & Noble and Microsoft have settled their patent litigation, and moving forward, Barnes & Noble and Newco will have a royalty-bearing license under Microsoft’s patents for its NOOK eReader and Tablet products.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/Press/2012/Apr12/04-30CorpNews.aspx
Wait what... Reading article
Edit: does this affect us at all?
brendan10211 said:
Wait what... Reading article
Edit: does this affect us at all?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Probably not with current devices, but to me, it means that future devices are very likely to be windows based instead of android based.
I don't think that it will switch immediately to Window-based,
but no good can come from inviting an 800 pound gorilla to our private party.
I think M$ is more looking to bundle the Nook reader App with Windows 8 and leverage B&N's store for the books.
I really can't foresee M$ being able to scale down Windows 8 to run with any efficiency on an e-reader like the NST.
And M$ investment amounts to 17.6% so they are not in a controlling position, just a favorable one.
I don't see it as a bad deal for B&N as it gives them some capital to shore up the new company as well as get a sticky piece of patent litigation off their backs.
It still remains to be seen how it all plays out. Remember M$ did pretty much the same thing with Apple and look how that turned out for them.
From the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17896534
The Windows 8 operating system is specifically designed to work with touch screens and mobile devices like tablet computers.
Its Metro user interface can host small dedicated applications like Nook to sit on top of Windows.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, a new Nook Color tablet device could be built for Windoze 8, but they would have to ramp up the hardware on an e-ink reader to run that.
Which would raise cost of manufacture which translates to a higher consumer price.
There are already complaints about the $40 price increase for the new Nook GL (which I love btw, got mine today...woot!). The Flexiglow tech is still a new technology and early adopters have to pay a premium for using it in their devices.
How much more would people pay for an e-ink capable of running Windoze 8?
Then there is the Windoze 8 interface. M$ is hard bent on ensuring that the OS remains the same core across all hardware platforms. That would not be an insignificant hurdle for an e-ink reader.
Could it happen? Sure, it's not impossible. But I think there are more than few tough barriers to pass to get there.
How much money will it cost and is M$ willing to spend it?
And then there the fickle consumer.
B&N currently has a working formula. It could use some tweaking, but do you totally scrap that for Windoze 8?
Ok, I probably rambled too much, back to reading in the dark!
B&N CEO Lynch doesn't immediately foresee a Windoze 8 Nook either:
Fortune: Will we see Microsoft engineers and other Redmond-based talent actively working on new Nook devices and software?
Lynch: Currently, we've not communicated anything related to the roadmap about any hardware collaboration on Nook. Nook, as you know, uses open sourcing. Microsoft is obviously very entrenched in Windows. On the reading software side, in reading technologies, they're making interesting integrations into Windows, potentially Office. That kind of work has already started. Definitively yes.
Fortune: With the announcement, there's a lot of speculation now about what can come out of this partnership, like a potential Nook based on Windows 8, as opposed to Android. What can you tell us about the possibilities there?
Lynch: If you look at the content sort of flow from authoring tools, obviously, Microsoft is one of the leaders, if not the leader in authoring tools with Word, PowerPoint, Excel, their Office franchise, all the way through the transaction buying merchandising, sale or cloud management of the content. You can see us working across that.
So again we haven't announced anything specifically, but imagine an integration where an information worker, student, author, consumer, creates something in Office and has it immediately published for sale through the Nook book store. It starts to open a lot of exciting possibilities.
Full article including adding NFC: http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/05/01/nook/
why all this speculation focusing on a Nook device of the future running on full Windows 8 when the perfectly natural OS would be a Win Phone 7 variant?
not to mention the OS that e-reading and font smoothing was marketed on first and the foundation of what xda-dev was made for - WINDOWS CE, which is still in develoment as an embedded OS.
I for one welcome a CE Nook, no rooting required!
also, coincidentally, MS just filed a patent app for e-ink 2nd screen to display interactive info. I'd also love to slave my NST to my Windows 8 as a separate touchpad with display!
Personally, I don't want to see a Windows 8 Nook for one reason: Price.
As it is the price for nooks is mostly hardware what with Android being a free OS and not requiring things such as royalties (being opensourced and all) if it all goes to Windows 8 I see the price going up as you'll not only be paying for the hardware, but you'd also be paying for the Windows 8 OS on the device, which would no doubt push the price point higher cause you know M$ has to have their cut. Instead of a $99 e-ink reader we'd probably be looking at $199 or $299 if say it were possible to switch the current Nook Touch to Windows 8 (it isn't but still). The higher end hardware which would be required for Windows 8 will mean that will also push the price point higher than it needs to be. Also replacing current devices with all W8 devices means they've effectively killed their App Market and since I can't see M$ playing nicely on that front they'd lose a source of income.
Another thing is, I can't see M$ playing nicely with people who want to create their own UI to replace whatever UI is on the tablet. Meaning that while you could run a Nook app on the device, you'd still be able to access everything else. So this could be a good point getting away from the restrictive UIs Nooks are known for if they went Win8.
Personally I think B&N needs to stick to android based devices, possibly releasing a W8 Tablet separately that doesn't replace any of their current devices. This would allow for them to continue making lower priced devices for customers who don't want all the bells and whistles of a higher end device.
Yes.
Thanks for an interesting read, guys
If any products are replaced, I'm pretty sure people will stop buying them.. Even though Windows 8 is cool and all, M$ is pushing too hard.
brendan10211 said:
Yes.
Thanks for an interesting read, guys
If any products are replaced, I'm pretty sure people will stop buying them.. Even though Windows 8 is cool and all, M$ is pushing too hard.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mainly because the Windows Phone 7 interface was pretty much the only one they came up wtih by themselves. They're acting like a kid that just learned a new word that's fun to say; all they want to do is show everyone the word and try to get them saying it.
That sounds like me..
Thanks for the great analogy.
GabrialDestruir said:
Personally, I don't want to see a Windows 8 Nook for one reason: Price.
As it is the price for nooks is mostly hardware what with Android being a free OS and not requiring things such as royalties (being opensourced and all) if it all goes to Windows 8 I see the price going up as you'll not only be paying for the hardware, but you'd also be paying for the Windows 8 OS on the device,
...
Another thing is, I can't see M$ playing nicely with people who want to create their own UI to replace whatever UI is on the tablet. Meaning that while you could run a Nook app on the device, you'd still be able to access everything else. So this could be a good point getting away from the restrictive UIs Nooks are known for if they went Win8.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
again... Windows CE is still in developement for embedded devices and runs on way more anemic ARM hardware than the NST and about the same as the WP7 OS. Plus their development is already paid for and very reliable and very developer friendly. remember, the core of XDA-DEV was built on modding Win CE and changing the UI. I could certainly see that for an eInk budget device.
yet, the future of the Nook Color / Tablet could be running on the Win 8 ARM OS, I agree with you there, and that would open up the device more than B&N does out of the box. target price of a full Intel based Windows 7 and 8 tablet is already $500. they are totally aiming for the $200 - $300 market with their ARM version of 8. I bet price would remain competitive.
although if you look at the aquisition of Skype, MS has been very slow to change anything or absorb them into other products. MS may do absolutely nothing to the Nook hardware line if it's working.
Hi (sorry for length of the post!),
I am on the verge of getting new tablet.
I have good, old iPad 1 but unfortunately it is more toy than tool.
I have decided that device like Transformer (hybrid tablet/laptop) would be perfect for what I do. Till few days ago I was all set to wait for such a device with Win8 on-board... but now I am not so sure anymore.
Perhaps you will be able to help me make a good choice.
Currently during day I use at least two PC's with Win7 (and Windows Live services) + Google Chrome and iPad.
As much as I like iPad I hate that it can not sync (in full) like two PC's and especially Chrome (not to mention the lack of keyboard).
Because as I wrote I use Live services I was thinking that by the end of the year I should get a Windows Phone device (few of the things I need to know about WP are here, can you help? : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1643996), Win8 for desktop and tablet with Win8 onboard.
From what I read Win8 will be much more "closed" when compared to prev. vers of Windows.
Questions are:
1. Will both x86 and ARM version force user to use only MS app store (no more free, unrestricted download from the internet like today? - can it really be true???)
2. Will Win8 have geo-restrictions like currently Windows Phone (got your Live ID assigned to USA -> than you can not get any software from App Store UK. Even iOS is less problematic here).
3. Flash support? Got myself nice VPN... at the moment Hulu works perfectly on Win7 and via Splashtop on my iPad. What about Windows 8?
4. As I wrote I use Google Chrome as a browser. It is quick, it syncs in a very good way, etc. I can not get it for iOS (one of the reasons to drop the iOS)... I can have it on Android tablet (although I am not sure about sync capabilities) but I was hoping I will be able to get the proper, full Chrome for my Win8 desktop and tablet.
5. VPN support on Windows8? Any? Will I be able to access Netflix (as I do now) ob both Win8 desktop and Win8 tablet.
6. Do you think tablet with Win8 will differ in a way system is open (I am not sure if I use correct words for that) between x86 and ARM ver? I do understand that if I will get ARM device all software I will get will have to be "wrote" specifically for ARM and opposite... (unless x86 will have no problem in emulating ARM as it will be more powerful platform).
7. In another words... is it worth to wait for Windows 8 on tablet or I will do most of the stuff I want on Android ICS device?
All insights are welcome!
Sry, didn't have the time to answer all of your questions but hopefully some parts will be clearer in some minutes ^^
1.) no, x86 will work just like a win7 pc nowadays. Not quite sure, but ARM will be restricted to the new marketplace/store (correct me if I'm wrong)
2.) Don't know for sure, but I think it will connect your Live Accout (in W8 called Microsoft Account) will have a connection to your location, but just for the store - not for downloaded applications.
3.) On x86 (tablets) I don't see any problems in using flash. ARM may not be having flash at release, but I think it'll come fast.
4.) If Google is willing to release Chrome for Windows 8 RT (the ARM version), you will be able to install it on all your W8 devices. But you could buy a x86 tablet and the desktop version of Chrome will run.
So, have to go...
Some last words: Tablets with x86 are just like a desktop pc for win7 with a touchscreen, a new look and feel and in one little case
galtom said:
1. Will both x86 and ARM version force user to use only MS app store (no more free, unrestricted download from the internet like today? - can it really be true???)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Metro apps are restricted, and the ARM version primarily only supports METRO apps. So an ARM version will force you unless you: Have a developer account, Are on a Domain, or Use an items signed by a trusted cert provider and make some registry settings.
x86 has the same restrictions on METRO apps, but can run any x86 item (all existing windows applications) without restriction.
galtom said:
2. Will Win8 have geo-restrictions like currently Windows Phone (got your Live ID assigned to USA -> than you can not get any software from App Store UK. Even iOS is less problematic here).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Likely yes. You would need to use a proxy to access other stores.
galtom said:
3. Flash support? Got myself nice VPN... at the moment Hulu works perfectly on Win7 and via Splashtop on my iPad. What about Windows 8?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
x86 IE10 yes, I use Hulu on my 8 device right now. Metro IE10 will not support plugins (no flash, silverlight, or active x). You will need an 'app', or a site supporting HTML5 for IE10 to work.
galtom said:
4. As I wrote I use Google Chrome as a browser. It is quick, it syncs in a very good way, etc. I can not get it for iOS (one of the reasons to drop the iOS)... I can have it on Android tablet (although I am not sure about sync capabilities) but I was hoping I will be able to get the proper, full Chrome for my Win8 desktop and tablet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It works fine on an x86 tablet. It will be up to Google on whether or not they provide a Metro version. At this time there should be no restriction in place to prevent them from doing so if they desire to.
galtom said:
5. VPN support on Windows8? Any? Will I be able to access Netflix (as I do now) ob both Win8 desktop and Win8 tablet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
x86 yes. Metro requires an App. I use this today on Windows 8.
galtom said:
6. Do you think tablet with Win8 will differ in a way system is open (I am not sure if I use correct words for that) between x86 and ARM ver? I do understand that if I will get ARM device all software I will get will have to be "wrote" specifically for ARM and opposite... (unless x86 will have no problem in emulating ARM as it will be more powerful platform).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
x86 is completely open. ARM is restricted to things that install on ARM, and in most cases to things that are acquired through the METRO store (except for the exceptions listed in item 1
galtom said:
7. In another words... is it worth to wait for Windows 8 on tablet or I will do most of the stuff I want on Android ICS device?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you are going to buy a convertible windows 8 tablet, so it can be a laptop & a tablet, or if you are going to buy an x86 tablet, I would consider waiting for a windows 8 compatible device (expect sometime late summer / early fall.)
If you are going to buy a Win RT tablet, it is up to you, but I would probably buy a 200-300 android tablet, and then sell it and buy a windows one if/when it becomes a compelling device for you.
most of your questions have been answered, but im going to add a question (for you) an answer it
Should I buy a tablet now?
No, is the answer.
MS and its hardware partners have made some very interesting gains in the touch technology, not to mention Intels gains in performance / low watt CPUs.
if you buy now you will be missing out on some great tech especially around touch screens so it really would be a bit daft to buy just now, you also run the risk of it not supporting Win 8 completely as well. Seriously, wait it out until Win 8 comes, if you must get an older current gen device (perhaps price constrained?) then it will be cheaper then too
First of all thank you all for your time (and answers).
Since (as usual) answers to questions raise new questions... we... here we go
hanswurst24 said:
1.) no, x86 will work just like a win7 pc nowadays. Not quite sure, but ARM will be restricted to the new marketplace/store (correct me if I'm wrong)
2.) Don't know for sure, but I think it will connect your Live Accout (in W8 called Microsoft Account) will have a connection to your location, but just for the store - not for downloaded applications.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. I am not so sure... and I think even for MS "all this" might be a problem.
On one hand they should not change "philosophy" of Windows because no one would swap Win7 to Win8 if they would have to buy all software form 1 (or few) stores only).
On the other hand Windows Phone is showing the way they want to/would like to go (which company would not want to make extra cash on apps the way Apple, Google and Amazon are doing??? - to find balance will not be easy).
All this shows (in my opinion) another problem - system fragmentation. Only iOS is safe as Apple has full control over system and devices (but THANK GOD - is not that stubborn on geo/market restrictions as Google or Ms).
If you remember how confusing for customers it was with Vista and Win7 versions imagine what will happen now?
To be honest (if those versions RT and x86) will differ so much in terms of practicability, options, openness, functions of hardware I cant imagine how everything will be introduced, market and advertised in order for "Mr Average Joe" to comprehend and not run back next day to the shop with complaints - about system, software, compatibility, etc...
Looks like a pure nightmare and I think this is the reason (they do not know what to do exactly with all this mess) we have so little information on how it all is going to work and c0-work with each other :-(
2). You see... as far as I know if I would buy Windows Phone (or RT Win8 tablet - by the end of the year) I will be limited to apps available only in my location. If Live ID is assigned to UK than forget (even free!) apps for US market (and others). In my case it is a disaster... For my pleasure and entertainment I use apps (on iOS and Android [if I can find them - it is way more difficult than on iOS] from UK, US and Poland.
Installing Netflix or BBC iPlayer on a dive form other parts of the world on iOS is very simple and does not require any hacking/rooting/jaibrakes/etc/.
On Android one has to know how to root the device and than simply search the net... not alwys finding what he/she wants.
On Windows Phone if you create new Live ID (like on iOS), switching those equals HARD RESET of the device.
If that will be the case with Win8 RT... that is a very bad news! Even if x86 ver will have less restrisctions those news will be bad for ARM manufacturers as they will get like "handicapped" system when compared to x86... - would you be happy about it if you were Nvidia or Qualcomm?
hanswurst24 said:
3.) On x86 (tablets) I don't see any problems in using flash. ARM may not be having flash at release, but I think it'll come fast.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe it will, maybe it will not... question are:
- will it at all?
- how difficult it will be to install (root? bootloader? other restrictions? unauthorized software when compared to what your Live ID has bought from the shop?)
- how many AVERAGE people will want to go into all this mess?
michiganenginerd said:
Metro apps are restricted, and the ARM version primarily only supports METRO apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So... if there will DESKTOP mode on Win8 RT don't you think it will limit its general appeal. If it will be so restricted, without desktop mode... why would you want it over Android?
michiganenginerd said:
x86 has the same restrictions on METRO apps, but can run any x86 item (all existing windows applications) without restriction.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, if you are right... this move from MS would mean that hardly anyone will buy ARM version of the system -> ARM devices with Win8 will not sell. If that would be the case what would be the point for ARM ver of Win8 in first place if no sane manufacturer would invest money to produce devices that can not compete with x86 devices because of system they have. Unless they are very, VERY cheap (looking at cost of Android devices is not making me hopeful in this matter) or if people do not much care for the system but for batt. life - again why would you want Win8 over Android or (well established) iOS. It is worth to remember that it will be even more difficult to win customers who already own Android or iOS device - there is a good chance that they have spend quite a lot of cash so far on apps.
QUESTION (off topic): if you got iOS, purchased apps are assigned to account, not device -> meaning if you buy an app for iPad 1 you can still use it on iPad3. How dose it work on Windows Phone and Android devices?
michiganenginerd said:
Likely yes. You would need to use a proxy to access other stores.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Proxy/VPN is not a problem - problem is in Live ID that is assigned to a specific country during creation and registration. In this case your IP does not matter. It is the same with Google Play. Once you have your Google account you can connect to the store form any location but it will not allow you ti install software not in your market (even if you can see it).
michiganenginerd said:
x86 IE10 yes, I use Hulu on my 8 device right now. Metro IE10 will not support plugins (no flash, silverlight, or active x). You will need an 'app', or a site supporting HTML5 for IE10 to work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, if it will be so difficult with getting those apps it might influence sales and opinions outside of the US.
It looks to me that if only manufacturers of x86 devices will resolve problem with heating and active cooling (which imho have no please on tablet or hybrid laptop) it will be the only ver of Win8 that will make sense to buy.
Shame, as I would love to have "all this freedom" on an ARM device - I do not need computing power on mobile device but I also do not want to be limited in what I can install and from where/who.
michiganenginerd said:
It works fine on an x86 tablet. It will be up to Google on whether or not they provide a Metro version. At this time there should be no restriction in place to prevent them from doing so if they desire to.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What happens now 9on x86 Win8) if you try to add shortcut to Chrome on Metro UI? It dose not shows... or what?
If so, you mean you can lunch any software from desktop but not from metro screen? Does not make much sense... does it?
I understand that a "Metro app" will be easier to use and more touch friendly that current range of apps designed for mouse but still... it should be my choice. If I want to use it let me start it from any interface.
michiganenginerd said:
If you are going to buy a convertible windows 8 tablet, so it can be a laptop & a tablet, or if you are going to buy an x86 tablet, I would consider waiting for a windows 8 compatible device (expect sometime late summer / early fall.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am considering buying now something like TF Prime or TF 300 - it might do what I need. And with some outside help (perhaps from here) beside usual stuff I should be able to get VPN client, Hulu +, Netflix and BBC on it. I am not worried about text editors as there should be quite few of those that will work with docx files and skydrive and hotmail.
And if Win8 will be a hit (I already bought Vista on a first day of sale - never again the same mistake! ) than I will consider getting it for my desktop and perhaps swapping a hybrid mobile device.
Does it make sense?
michiganenginerd said:
If you are going to buy a Win RT tablet, it is up to you, but I would probably buy a 200-300 android tablet, and then sell it and buy a windows one if/when it becomes a compelling device for you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly what I wrote above .
dazza9075 said:
most of your questions have been answered, but im going to add a question (for you) an answer it
Should I buy a tablet now?
No, is the answer.
MS and its hardware partners have made some very interesting gains in the touch technology, not to mention Intels gains in performance / low watt CPUs.
if you buy now you will be missing out on some great tech especially around touch screens so it really would be a bit daft to buy just now, you also run the risk of it not supporting Win 8 completely as well. Seriously, wait it out until Win 8 comes, if you must get an older current gen device (perhaps price constrained?) then it will be cheaper then too
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well... I see your points, but...
It is still long wait for Win8, devices, decent reviews, all the hype and prices to settle and actual (physical) choice in the shop. I remember all the hype about competition to iPad 1 when it came out - it took almost a over year for devices to get to shops (remember CES and MWC in 2010 and 2011) - it is 2012 and not all devices are here.
How long it took Xoom to get to shops outside USA...?
Although Win8 (RT as well???) will go on sale after holidays... time for actual devices with the system (laptops, ultrabooks, netbooks, desktops, all in one PC's, tablets and hybrid tablets [have I missed anything?]) to get to the shop is a whole different story.
Meaning.... if it will take another (at least) 6-8 months to have an actual choice in the shops is it worth to wait and suffer in the mean time? But if I do get a TF300/Prime now - will I need a Win8 replacement for it?
sounds like you already made your mind up what you want to do and that Win 8 will not be as good as we think.
So perhaps save yourself to hassle and don't bother with it.
As for buying now that's up to you, but Win 8 wont be that long, hardware will be out soon and if you don't want that new hardware the older stuff will be a lot cheaper. 8 months after launch is way to far down the line, MS will be bending OEMs over backwards to get hardware out for launch.
You would be completely Bonkers buying now, we are about to get an RC of win 8, ARM will be getting developed in parallel, OEMs will have hardware taped out already to test the OS, which is something Apple doesn't have to worry too much about as they build the OS and hardware around one another where as Windows needs to support it all hence the longer development cycle and early gear in the wild
IF you get something now, there is no guarantee it will work or work well with Win RT or x86, so yes, potentially you will need to get new gear, and of course Win RT is OEM only meaning you can only get it with hardware soo.... you choice I guess.
As Dazza said it sounds like you have pretty much made up your mind. But in case there is still value in conversation.
galtom said:
Why not let ARM do what x86 does
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exisiting applications written for windows cannot just run on a ARM device. They need to be modified to support and recompiled.
Existing applications written for desktops and laptops, even if they could run with no changes, would result in a poor experience.
You have two types of devices: Windows & Windows RT
You have two types of applications: Metro & Classic
RT devices are low power tablets running metro only.
Windows devices are likely to be ultrabooks, convertible laptops, and desktops running what they run today.
If you want a tablet, Win RT is a tablet with a full copy of office and a fun interface that will do what an iPad or an android tablet does, but is a device aimed at content consumption, not generation.
If you want a hybrid, you'll be be buying an x86 device, at least in the near future.
Not letting Diablo II & HALO run on Windows RT isn't just an arbitrary restriction. It won't run. It wasn't written, compiled, and tested on an ARM architecture.
galtom said:
Restrictions / curation:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OSX is adding sandboxing and store requirements over time. Expect in 10 years you have to buy apps from the Mac Store.
Microsoft is heading down the same path, at least for Metro applications. Expect in 10 years, consumers buy most apps from the Windows Store.
Is that a good thing? For some consumers probably. For a developer maybe. For an xda-reader not so much.
galtom said:
Flash Support
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As for flash, it will be very unlikely to come to Windows RT.
Win RT browser will not support plugins.
Adobe has ended new development of Flash on ARM to focus on HTML5.
galtom said:
Why would I buy Win8 RT over android if it is restricted?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why would you choose Android over an iPad?
You choose what is the most compelling to you.
Maybe you like METRO, want domain support, or full native MS Office.
galtom said:
It is still long wait for Win8 devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It isn't that long. Release Candidate is first week of June.
I am running it on an AMD E-350 acer tablet I bought for $300, and I use it over my Transformer.
I hold onto my transformer still to use with Citrix Reciever,
Otherwise I use a laptop, an E-350 hybrid, and an A100 as my devices today.
Expect end of summer that 5 point devices, using the new touch technology go on sale.
Expect late fall devices are sold for the holidays.
What you do is up to you as an individual about what is compelling.
For me I can't wait to buy device like the IdeaPad Yoga. I'll switch to using that and a 7" tablet.
If you are happy with Android, the Transformer is fine, I just find myself using the 7" or a full laptop. I rarely use the 10".
You sound fairly unhappy about Win 8's existance. I'm happy to have more choices.
For me, I will reduce my 4 devices to two, one of which I'm excited about. I won't be likely to buy an RT device, but I expect many will.
We aren't the average user that is being targeted by an RT Device. My parents use a 10" tablet for 90% of their internet. They get on a laptop or desktop for writing long emails, uploading photos & using office. If their tablet had widi to wirelessly throw the screen to a monitor, and could use office, they would probably never use their laptop.
Sales People & Relationship Managers that carry around iPads or Androids also can get a device that works with their corporate domain, and has full office on it. For many that would meet their needs.
But just because Windows RT doesn't meet the needs of an average xda user, doesn't mean it fails for the millions of people using netbooks & 5 year old laptops to browse the web, pay bills online, and occasionally use office.
michiganenginerd said:
As Dazza said it sounds like you have pretty much made up your mind. But in case there is still value in conversation.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, that is true but only to a point.
At the moment I think I will give ICS on Asus TF a try and byt the end of the year if x86 tablets with W8 will get good reviews I think I will jump the ship.
My concern (I had Asus 1201n with Atom 330 onboard and have Samsung NC10) is performance of current Atom chips - is it really better (forget about watching smooth YT video on NC10 - and it is not a problem on iPad!).
Heat! - cant have tablet with active cooling system.
Weight! - the likes of current fliptop netbook/tablets its just not nice (heavy and hot).
Battery life - 8h is a must (basically x86 W8 tablet [with a dock] has to be able to work (videos, internet, e-mail - nothing very heavy) to work 1 day
michiganenginerd said:
Originally Posted by galtom
Why not let ARM do what x86 does
Exisiting applications written for windows cannot just run on a ARM device. They need to be modified to support and recompiled.
Existing applications written for desktops and laptops, even if they could run with no changes, would result in a poor experience.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is not exactly what I have asked or at least not what I meant.
It is clear from me that x86 and ARM are two different platforms and I have never, ever expected old software to work on ARM devices.
But! If x86 can have both desktop and Metro why limit W-RT? If someone wants to create an ARM app that will support both modes, if users will want to use it...? Why not let us have the option to do so.
Second is the limitation of the sources of the software.
I can not imagine that W-RT will not get jailbroken as iOS is. But since iOS i way ahead of Windows and there is lots of Android devices on the market I can not see this as a PLUS point for W-RT, quite opposite.
W-RT (and devices with this system) will have to compete with:
- iOS: that is well marketed, well known, still cool, less restricted (no problem in swapping iTunes accounts), people already spend cash on software for their iPads, there is Office for iOS + lots of other business & entertainment software - why would current Apple customers ditch iPads?
Why would and iOS device owner said - OOO, another closed and restricted enviromet just looking different - I want it! - somehow I do not see that happening
- Android: envelope of openness that surrounds Android, no problem with root, community support, ROMS, apps from Google (or from wherever you want), probably a bit lower prices of devices, as iOS (in most cases) works with all Microsoft services + points as in iOS - folks have already spent cash on software, some devices are already in second or third generation
- Windows 8 x86 it has everything W-RT has + lots of more. Beats iOS and Android in terms of software availability, it is basically what you now have on desktop and laptop but with the proper support for touch (when you need it), if Intel&Friends will solve problems of weight/heat/battery life and price range will not be as for current line of Windows tablets it looks like a winner to me.
Having said (wrote) all that - why would Joe go to the shop and said:
"Gimme' that Asus with Windows RT" - instead of iOS, Android or Windows 8 device???
michiganenginerd said:
If you want a tablet, Win RT is a tablet with a full copy of office and a fun interface that will do what an iPad or an android tablet does, but is a device aimed at content consumption, not generation.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Office for RT and Office for x86 - two different things :-(
+ Office for iOS should be here any moment (I thought it is already out). As much as MS would love to ignore iOS and keep Office out of iPAD I do not think they can. how many millions devices is already out there? If only 25% of those people would want one of Office products... its quite a lot of cash...
+ to all points above - there is also a question of price of the software for all platforms and system itself.
What's more, considering how big profit Apple is making on iPad it seems as lots of room for price adjustment once Windows8 & RT devices are out.
michiganenginerd said:
If you want a hybrid, you'll be be buying an x86 device, at least in the near future.
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Quite true, but since I miss this sort of functionality every day (and I doubt I am only one) why not go for TF300 or TF Prime now?
There is nothing wrong with those devices and when I look at ICS and what RT will bring to table I do not see any reasonable points that would convince me to wait (that was the reason I wrote here - to see I my line of thinking is correct. So far (unfortunately for W-RT) you have not wrote that I am wrong or that I have misunderstood something about Windows RT.
The only thing worth considering are devices with x86 Windows onboard but:
- its still few months (in the mean time I could give ICS a try?
- they are unknown in terms of battery/heat/weight and price!
Windows RT seems like a great idea that was f...up during creation. If Windows RT would be first on the market (before iPad with iOS and Android) - no problem. They could do all that and people would still get it... nowadays, whey MS is trying to chase others... I do not really see it happening with Windows 8 RT looking as it is.
It is pretty similar to situation with Windows Phone. It is not a bad system... but it is not better either. In some case is like or a bit worse than iOS in some it is like or a bit worse than Android - but it is not BETTER.
And just look how iPhone and Android phones are selling. look where is manufacturers focus.
Samsung/LG/Sony/HTC - how many Android models and how many WP models?
I got strange felling that W-RT will share the same fate. It will be there but not as any threat to iOS or Android, unlike x86 Windows 8 if Intel&Co will deliver.
michiganenginerd said:
OSX is adding sandboxing and store requirements over time. Expect in 10 years you have to buy apps from the Mac Store.
Microsoft is heading down the same path, at least for Metro applications. Expect in 10 years, consumers buy most apps from the Windows Store.[/qoute]
Yes, and there is nothing wrong with this... especially that (I hope) with x86 version we will always keep the choice where we want our software to get from.
Looking at the history (of thing in general) I can not remember 1 good exaple where introduction of more and additional restrictions actually worked well. It is against human nature.
If in 10-15 Windows will become completely shut... than Linux (or something else) might raise its head and actually win hearts of customers - like Apple did not so far ago!
michiganenginerd said:
Is that a good thing? For some consumers probably. For a developer maybe. For an xda-reader not so much.
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Can not agree! It is bad for every one - even developers as they will be forced to accept any policy and conditions from Microsoft (similar to what it is right now with Apple ).
Limiting the choice is never good for anyone beside "The Man" in control.
michiganenginerd said:
As for flash, it will be very unlikely to come to Windows RT.
Win RT browser will not support plugins.
Adobe has ended new development of Flash on ARM to focus on HTML5.
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And with recent news that RT will not support other browser but its own, best it is another point against this system.
It looks to me as MS is doing all it actually can to make it bad.
michiganenginerd said:
Why would you choose Android over an iPad?
You choose what is the most compelling to you.
Maybe you like METRO, want domain support, or full native MS Office.
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EXACTLY! If all above is true... who is going to get W-RT???
It will sell but only to people with no idea what they are buying, who dont really need it and who will not really use it (will not buy additional apps). Because if they do, if that will think before they buy... W-RT will be the last on the list (unless it will be the cheapest - which I doubt!)
michiganenginerd said:
It isn't that long. Release Candidate is first week of June.
I am running it on an AMD E-350 acer tablet I bought for $300, and I use it over my Transformer.
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If only there would be an x86 ver of transformer with no fans to cool it down I would already be on it and this thread would not exist.
I just wanted to make sure that I am not missing something about Windows RT or situation in general.
I hold onto my transformer still to use with Citrix Reciever,
Otherwise I use a laptop, an E-350 hybrid, and an A100 as my devices today.
Expect end of summer that 5 point devices, using the new touch technology go on sale.
Expect late fall devices are sold for the holidays.
What you do is up to you as an individual about what is compelling.
For me I can't wait to buy device like the IdeaPad Yoga. I'll switch to using that and a 7" tablet.
If you are happy with Android, the Transformer is fine, I just find myself using the 7" or a full laptop. I rarely use the 10".
You sound fairly unhappy about Win 8's existance. I'm happy to have more choices.
For me, I will reduce my 4 devices to two, one of which I'm excited about. I won't be likely to buy an RT device, but I expect many will.
We aren't the average user that is being targeted by an RT Device. My parents use a 10" tablet for 90% of their internet. They get on a laptop or desktop for writing long emails, uploading photos & using office. If their tablet had widi to wirelessly throw the screen to a monitor, and could use office, they would probably never use their laptop.
Sales People & Relationship Managers that carry around iPads or Androids also can get a device that works with their corporate domain, and has full office on it. For many that would meet their needs.
But just because Windows RT doesn't meet the needs of an average xda user, doesn't mean it fails for the millions of people using netbooks & 5 year old laptops to browse the web, pay bills online, and occasionally use office.
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Short version:
W-RT is not for targeted at You, I, or many xda-readers. That doesn't mean it doesn't have a place or that the option existing is bad.
galtom said:
Heat, Weight, Battery Life!
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Intel is getting closer, but you just can't pull off an iPad size / weight device with 8h+ battery life on x86. The tech isn't there yet.
galtom said:
If x86 can have both desktop and Metro why limit W-RT?
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W-RT is OEM only. It is meant to be an 'appliance' not a PC.
Whether you agree with the approach or not, the justifications for limiting are somewhat explained here:
Microsoft's Windows chief Steven Sinofsky:
If we enabled the broad porting of existing code we would fail to deliver on our commitment to longer battery life, predictable performance, and especially a reliable experience over time. The conventions used by today's Windows apps do not necessarily provide this, whether it is background processes, polling loops, timers, system hooks, startup programs, registry changes, kernel mode code, admin rights, unsigned drivers, add-ins, or a host of other common techniques.
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/...ndows-for-the-arm-processor-architecture.aspx
galtom said:
I can not imagine that W-RT will not get jailbroken as iOS is.
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Less immediate need to jailbreak it. There are supported methods of sideloading, but I am sure there will be other people who extend it beyond that.
galtom said:
why would Joe go to the shop and said:
"Gimme' that Asus with Windows RT" - instead of iOS, Android or Windows 8 device???
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Joe may work for a BYOD company, or Joe is buying for his company.
Joe may be my Father, who would like a tablet device he could do email, netflix, hulu, office, and wireless screencasting.
Some Joe's this will work for, other's it won't. We have to recognize, just because we aren't the target market doesn't mean their isn't one.
Many Joe's will buy an iPad or an Android, some will buy W-RT, some will buy none of the above.
A device that is 300-500 dollars, that comes with a free copy of office, and integrates well with a enterprise, has a market.
galtom said:
Office for RT and Office for x86 - two different things
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Excel, OneNote, PowerPoint and Word are expected to support all of the same Office 15 x86 features.
galtom said:
Windows Phone. It is not a bad system... but it is not better either.
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Agreed, except in the base security model, and as a feature phone replacement. The phone is massively ahead in terms of sandboxing and enforcing secure practices. It would also be a better phone in terms of ease of use and simplicity for a subset of users. Would I replace my Android with it? no. But that doesn't mean it doesn't do some things well, and that their are users who would find the experience simpler than iPhone or Android when buying their first smartphone.
galtom said:
It will be there but not as any threat to iOS or Android, unlike x86 Windows 8 if Intel&Co will deliver.
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Does something have to be an 'iPad Killer' for there to be a place for it? Why is choice a bad thing?
galtom said:
Restrictions .... bad for every one
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For some consumers the security and curation makes their experience better, for some the restrictions outweigh any benefit.
For some developers the market will be better than one not existing, for some the restrictions outweigh any benefit.
For most people on this board the restrictions outweigh the upside.
As a developer, while I hate the restrictions Apple and MS impose, I also now have a market to sell to that did not exist 10 years ago.
I will continue to be a proponent of more open options, and an end to restrictions put in place to support a business model rather than architecture or security, but that doesnt' mean that the app store's existance is a net negative on my life.
galtom said:
RT will not support other browser but its own
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Not true. RT will not support other browsers in 'Classic / Desktop' mode.
I think MS should work with major vendors to allow them to deliver 'classic' mode applications on ARM, but this isn't a ban on other browsers, it's a ban on all software that does not run in the sandbox.
galtom said:
It will sell but only to people with no idea what they are buying
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I share concern in this area. I believe that most people who bought netbooks did not get what they expected.
I do think there is a place for these devices for a larger group of users than netbooks had a place for.
But I do think they need to make sure it is sold / marketed in a way that makes it clear what it is, and what it is not.
I will probably get my Father one for Christmas. I probably will not get one of my own. Different users have different needs, hopefully the marketing, sales, and staffs at stores do a better job of directing them.
Good: Most functionality from x86 remain. Verge said no WMP in desktop, only in Metro. And no legacy apps, of course. Office RT Preview looks good (given that it's free), albeit you'll need a KB/mouse setup. Looks just like Win8 all-around.
Bad: No accelerometer?! Well, at least the Surface RT has it.
e.mote said:
Good: Most functionality from x86 remain. Verge said no WMP in desktop, only in Metro. And no legacy apps, of course. Office RT Preview looks good (given that it's free), albeit you'll need a KB/mouse setup. Looks just like Win8 all-around.
Bad: No accelerometer?! Well, at least the Surface RT has it.
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There's a chance. That slim possibility of running cross-compiled desktop apps..... Maybe, just maybe.
So... desktop view works on RT, this is a go
Now I will really be buying the Surface, also you can put the Surface in 0 and 90 grades angles in the dock so it makes it even better.
Sent from my MB860 using xda app-developers app
Another brief tour of WinRT, this time going through Word 2013 Preview. But more noteworthy is that windowing function in desktop mode is still the same as ever (1:25 mark), ie you can move/resize/overlap windows to any degree.
The main takeway is that WinRT is basically same as Win8 x86 w/o the legacy apps, in exchange for a lower price and free Office. (I hope MS shrinks the footprint, and dumps WinSxS.) The second takeway is that despite all the Metro hubbub, if you want to get real work done, it still takes a mouse & keyboard.
Am hoping sideloading will be achieved quickly, and that 3rd-parties will support desktop mode with cross-compiled apps as phail pal said.
Oh yah and hoping MS goes ahead with that $199 Surface RT!
e.mote said:
Another brief tour of WinRT, this time going through Word 2013 Preview. But more noteworthy is that windowing function in desktop mode is still the same as ever (1:25 mark), ie you can move/resize/overlap windows to any degree.
The main takeway is that WinRT is basically same as Win8 x86 w/o the legacy apps, in exchange for a lower price and free Office. (I hope MS shrinks the footprint, and dumps WinSxS.) The second takeway is that despite all the Metro hubbub, if you want to get real work done, it still takes a mouse & keyboard.
Am hoping sideloading will be achieved quickly, and that 3rd-parties will support desktop mode with cross-compiled apps as phail pal said.
Oh yah and hoping MS goes ahead with that $199 Surface RT!
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My.. there it is! the desktop! and FILES! LOL. I like this, I wish I can be at USA when it goes out to make the line with others to buy it, but I will have to tell somebody to buy me one and send it to DR crap!..
There will be an accelerometer. That is a requirement of windows RT
I'm kind of surprised he wasted an opportunity with Windows RT in the desktop. There so many questions regarding metro performance and resource footprint that he could have addressed.
Some more looks at WinRT desktop (and tech stuff).
Storage & OS footprint: On this 32GB device, only 24GB is showing as available as a single C: drive, with 12GB of that used and 12GB remaining (2:02 mark). From this, I'm assuming the OS is stashed in a 8GB reserved partition, and the 12GB used is from Office and possible swap file. Total footprint: 20GB for WinRT + Office. On a 32GB device, that is a huge footprint and needs to be slimmed down much further.
MS Office 2013 has a touch mode that's disabled by default (why?). Enabling it means menu options are spaced further apart from each other, allowing for more surface area for touch input.
Another Verge vid shows that most of Win8's built-in apps & functions (except WordPad and WMP) are present in WinRT. Also, a look-see at Dev Mgr, showing the same WDDM 1.2 drivers as in Win8. Some of the driver dates are from 2006, which imply the drivers have not been reworked at all, but were simply recompiled (1:50 mark). This is certainly good news for porting to ARM.
All these indicate a work-in-progress for RT. One worry is that MS, in its push to standardize on Metro, will take measures to lock out the desktop. We'll see how it goes, but the above is a good step toward assuring users that RT won't be just a dumbed-down Windows.
The ZDNet article talking about these two videos is here, and contain a few more insights.
http://www.zdnet.com/hands-on-with-windows-rt-finally-7000003589/
The more I watch it, the more I like it. Windows 8 is awesome, fast, smooth and safe. =]
I got very excited about the "desktop mode" in RT, but then I remembered about this:
"heavily-restricted "desktop" mode that will run only Microsoft code...[such as] Word, Excel, PowerPoint...[and] Internet Explorer."
Droff said:
I got very excited about the "desktop mode" in RT, but then I remembered about this:
"heavily-restricted "desktop" mode that will run only Microsoft code...[such as] Word, Excel, PowerPoint...[and] Internet Explorer."
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It will be hacked in no time...
Droff said:
I got very excited about the "desktop mode" in RT, but then I remembered about this:
"heavily-restricted "desktop" mode that will run only Microsoft code...[such as] Word, Excel, PowerPoint...[and] Internet Explorer."
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Source?
phailyoor said:
Source?
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Microsoft blog
Chillingly Based said:
Microsoft blog
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Link?
Droff said:
I got very excited about the "desktop mode" in RT, but then I remembered about this:
"heavily-restricted "desktop" mode that will run only Microsoft code...[such as] Word, Excel, PowerPoint...[and] Internet Explorer."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This will only apply for about the first week.
Once the people who make software start to build for Windows 8, most apps like for example VLC and so on upload to the app store, most apps will cross compile in the cloud.
That was stated at the launch event.
So it means something like VLC could hit Windows 8 x86/RT/ and Windows Phone 8.
In under 6 months I can see having about 90% of the use of a full PC on RT.
I could find that handy to have an arm based Win Tab, with a dumb version of Photoshop to edit a picture on the fly, hot spot my phone and upload on the go.
My dream is a Nokia Tablet (MS Surface as 2nd pick), my HTC Radar ( with 7.8), and my Canon Digi, all able to fit in my Motor bike Case.
Greywolf_Ghost said:
This will only apply for about the first week.
Once the people who make software start to build for Windows 8, most apps like for example VLC and so on upload to the app store, most apps will cross compile in the cloud.
That was stated at the launch event.
So it means something like VLC could hit Windows 8 x86/RT/ and Windows Phone 8.
In under 6 months I can see having about 90% of the use of a full PC on RT.
Case.
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Well, it's not been confirmed whether there will be desktop development allowed on Windows RT devices. If it is allowed, then I totally agree with you. We'll see a deluge of desktop apps recompiled to target ARM desktop. If it is not allowed(most likely) then Windows RT devices are worthless.
I dont think they intend At this point to Allow desktop apps in windows rt, however apparently a large amount of the windows 8 rt (metro) apps will be cross platform, working on both arm and x86
Sent from my GT-S5660 using xda app-developers app
There will be, just wait until Windows RT is out, and give it 2 weeks or so.
Sent from my MB860 using xda app-developers app
It was made very clear, at both the Surface launch, and again at WP8 launch, because of the shared bits and common code that apps will cross platform.
If I am not mistaken the statement was " build once and compile for all"
The developer tools will cover all 3 platforms in 1 program.
It also means because of the common code, if the builders of apps for iphone and android want to add users they can use almost the same code.
So the things you like on your PC, once built for Metro will show up on all 3 platforms, or just the PC and RT.
I truly think this is the call of the developer and not MS. As the developer will pick what platform to compile for.
So in time you will see Firefox, Chrome....PJ64, Nes.....Photoshop,Video Edit...multi format media player like VLC or Real Player.
It is just up to someone out on the internet to click the button and send the uplaod.
If your unsure, go back and watch the Surface launch, I am sure it is said a few times.
>Well, it's not been confirmed whether there will be desktop development allowed on Windows RT devices...If it is not allowed(most likely) then Windows RT devices are worthless.
Metro can't replace the desktop for productivity, so unless MS wants RT to fail out of the gate, RT can't and won't be restricted to just Metro apps. RT will have an uphill battle as it is to get any traction, with no Metro apps to speak of, and having to compete against iPad and cheap Android tabs. Restricting RT to just Metro (and Office) is just plain stupid.
Second, I find it humorous that MS would be able to "restrict" desktop development, or for that matter forcing every vendor to use only the MS app store to sell their wares (and for MS to get its 30 or 20% cut). Windows is still a monopoly, and that would be the first thing vendors will scream about. That, and hobbyist devs (read: XDA types) will do whatever they want to do.
>It also means because of the common code, if the builders of apps for iphone and android want to add users they can use almost the same code.
That's the MS pitch for pushing Metro. However, for the immediate future, RT and WP8 are insignificant entities, and cross-platform isn't a pressing need. Metro's positives have to be weighed against its negatives, and the big one for now is that it can't do desktop (productivity) applications. Cross-platform doesn't matter unless that's resolved.
Windows 8 isn't a finished product, despite the RTM tag. Much will have to change. Either MS needs to do the desktop/Metro integration much better, or Metro will have to grow up. As it stands, I don't see anything as being cast in stone, MS' decrees notwithstanding.
e.mote said:
>Well, it's not been confirmed whether there will be desktop development allowed on Windows RT devices...If it is not allowed(most likely) then Windows RT devices are worthless.
Metro can't replace the desktop for productivity, so unless MS wants RT to fail out of the gate, RT can't and won't be restricted to just Metro apps. RT will have an uphill battle as it is to get any traction, with no Metro apps to speak of, and having to compete against iPad and cheap Android tabs. Restricting RT to just Metro (and Office) is just plain stupid.
Second, I find it humorous that MS would be able to "restrict" desktop development, or for that matter forcing every vendor to use only the MS app store to sell their wares (and for MS to get its 30 or 20% cut). Windows is still a monopoly, and that would be the first thing vendors will scream about. That, and hobbyist devs (read: XDA types) will do whatever they want to do.
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I totally agree with you, but considering all of the bull MS reps have been spewing, anything can happen, including locking down the desktop on RT. Also, windows RT isn't windows anymore(according to MS), so there's no worries about a monopoly.
Still, I'm hoping for an open desktop on RT that will quickly fill up with powerful desktop apps.