Related
Seems to me like Google could sell both with the carriers in a traditional fashion and also sell unlocked/unbranded phones online. Same as SE selling its X10 via carrier but also selling unbranded in Sony Style. Nokia and others have done this as well.
With this thought in mind I was wandering around Google trying to find a good spot to leave such a suggestion and couldn't find anything which didn't say to me, "message going to don't care and I would be totally wasting my time". So the first question is, where would be the best place to start bending Googles ear? What do you think of finding what seems to be the most likely place and trying to get folks from the various android forums to go there and put in their two cents? While many folks might not have been interested in the N1 that doesn't mean they don't want to see an N2 come along that might be a form factor that suits their needs better. Im spitballing here guys, throw down with your opinions. I say lets be heard!
Those of you who are not getting my concept have no fear, Paul will be along to say it better than I did soon enough.
Google jumped feet first into the the retail business. Before this I don't think they ever sold a tangible product(?) in retail.
From the movements they are making it seems they don't want to be retailers.
I think the biggest problem is having customer support and technical support. Since apple and Sony have their own support departments its easy for them to sell online.
Google jumped in with both feet, true. Technical support has largely been hashed out, lesson learned. I think Google wanted in and I think they still want in. The trick is trying to show them they can have their cake and eat it too. Making the effort costs us nothing, not making the effort makes us the sheep that the carriers bring to the slaughter.
krabman said:
Google jumped in with both feet, true. Technical support has largely been hashed out, lesson learned. I think Google wanted in and I think they still want in. The trick is trying to show them they can have their cake and eat it too. Making the effort costs us nothing, not making the effort makes us the sheep that the carriers bring to the slaughter.
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Click to collapse
How about an online petition and a never ending email campaign to Google pointing them to the petition?
Thats kinda the concept that I am thinking of attn1 but I don't know how to go about it. Google has built a sales apperatus, its built a store front, its built a support mechanism, all we are asking is that they not shelve those tools that are already in place as they venture forth on a new direction. They are paid for, they work, the support themselves. There is no reason I can think of off hand why they cannot do this and several benefits to Google. But first you have to get their ear...
attn1 said:
How about an online petition and a never ending email campaign to Google pointing them to the petition?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This. Start it and it shall be signed.
Technically they have done this before.
The T-Mobile G1 was also sold by Google as the ADP1 (Android Developer Phone 1) and the Magic/myTouch 3G was sold by them as the ADP2. But, you had to register as an Android developer to order one.
Originally I thought the Nexus One was simply going to be the ADP3 with a more open ordering process. The fact that they are handing out free N1s at developer conferences and to their employees indicates it will continue to have that status whether or not it continues to have "direct to consumer sales" status.
Since they still need ways for developers to get unlocked phones for new development they will likely continue to sell the N1 in some capacity even if/when they hand over standard sales to the carriers. It may be that you would need to register as a developer, though, but I doubt they would stop selling it entirely as then the Magic/ADP2 would be the most up to date phone that they provide their developers and that isn't a great situation...
why don't we do the same thing like the guys wil LG Optimus did? they posted questions all over their Facebook site and Twitter.... how about a group effort to do the same?
We've done that in the past with various phones. Samsung/Sprint just don't seem to care.
othan1 said:
We've done that in the past with various phones. Samsung/Sprint just don't seem to care.
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Well let's do it again. These phones are Samsung's best sellers. We should be able to give them a run for their money. I didn't pay 500$ for an antiquity(YES i bought it).
apatcas said:
Well let's do it again. These phones are Samsung's best sellers. We should be able to give them a run for their money. I didn't pay 500$ for an antiquity(YES i bought it).
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Bought mine too - but it really didn't get anything solved for the 1.5 Hero kernel source - they still released it on their own schedule.
you know im just impressed that this worked for LG and when i even suggest this here everyone just gives the **** up... i mean really? do you think it will hurt our chances to get an update? people are so used to taking **** and just eating it up.
nothing in this world will just coincidently land in your lap.
here's the link... http://www.facebook.com/SamsungGalaxyS
I asked. didn't hurt me to type. then again i actually fought for a lot of stuff in life.
Its not about eating he piles of utter bs they feed us with a snow shovel, its the simple fact that they will release it on their own internal schedule and unless your giving the project manager head under his desk 9-5 then the ammount you ***** about the update matters to them about as much as one of their 8 year old production line workers complaining that they are hungry or just lost a finger in a machine. Complain all you want, they have their cash now and they can do as they please. Now wether or not what they do is a good business decision for keeping and maintaining a happy customer base is a totally different situation. In all actuality the people on this and other SGS boards are in the minority, just audible enough to cause a fuss and make them release a generic statement that all public companies would that won't effect stock prices. The other 70% of customers couldn't give two air ****s what 2.2 is or what the hell kernel or source actually mean othe than popcorn and original copy.
Now as far as it working for LG. You show m where they said "no you can't have it" and then said "ok well you *****ed and threatend law suits enough here it is" I may believe that they actually released it based on consumer pressure and demands, other wise they did the same thing every company does. Develop a product, change their mind 7 times a week, finally get something that is "ok" but in all reality is mediocre because of the politics involved internally, test it, fix it, lather, rinse, repeat as necessary, release to the customer and in the process shut the people up who are *****ing and won't be happy even when its done because someones $15 dollar sub standard blue tooth headset won't pair or an app in the market that used to work fine fcs now.
/rant
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
Like I've said before: Sprint has people deliberately "leak" updates to quiet down the tech crowd by throwing them a bone now and again. We also do their beta testing for them on a large scale. Do you think that Sprint engineers don't comb these boards for good ideas?
Sent from hell...
Top Nurse said:
Like I've said before: Sprint has people deliberately "leak" updates to quiet down the tech crowd by throwing them a bone now and again. We also do their beta testing for them on a large scale. Do you think that Sprint engineers don't comb these boards for good ideas?
Sent from hell...
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Ofcourse they do,thats buisness...And the real reason 2.2/2.2.1 didnt come out sooner,work really didnt start till about a month and a half ago,and there is still no real rush.Have you noticed how many EVO commercials are on tv now,and pretty much no more epic commercials.Its because they need to sell as many of those phones as possible for reasons unknown.But there is a big push to sell those phones.Yes they held back on 2.2 to patch some things in 2.2.1,mostly root,but that was like 3 days extra work at most.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
SamsungMobileUS: Seeking To Defuse Tensions, Samsung Opens Dialogue With XDA-Dev Forum - http://ow.ly/3X2cL @SamsungJohn
Sent from my non-rooted, stock eclair Epic.
I'd say the rants of people saying they're never going Samsung again seems to be paying off?
XtaC318 said:
I'd say the rants of people saying they're never going Samsung again seems to be paying off?
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No pay day yet. This is Sammy's way of confessing they have been trying to do it their way instead of please the customer for too long.
It still remains to be seen what they actually DO about it.
We all know what pathway good intentions paved =]
The bottom line is until sammy gets the carriers in line, and froyo gets released before its 1st birthday! People will rant with good reason. Btw gingerbread has been out for like 3 months! We have a top of the line device running an os from 2009. Honestly I love the hardware but I can't handle this bad os support.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk
Whoever even buys another Samsung flagship phone with the belief that they learned their lesson deserves what they are going to get and shouldn't complain anymore. If you haven't realized what their intent is, which is maximum profit with the least effort, while actually making it seem like they kind of care with PR rep's that promise things that they cant' actually commit to. INB4C
My friend asked me what phone he should buy, and looked at the Galaxy S2 and the Motorola Atrix. It was a no brainer which phone was the winner. Go Atrix! Pre-ordered and waiting! He was waiting for a nice dual core phone, but after the mess he has heard from me with Samsung, he said he definitely doesn't want to go through the same thing. To be honest, this crap is making me sick to my stomach just talking about anymore, cause we've all been crapped on, and it doesn't feel nice.
I'm not surprised in the least that Samsung would think that this meaningless gesture would diffuse this issue, but I'm honestly SHOCKED that "Xda leaders" would put any thought into this. I suspect they're making money off this, somehow.
This site has lost its way badly.
At least it's a start and shows Samsung at least recognizes they've pissed off some people. It's better than what they've been doing which has been a whole lot of nothing.
re: XDA profiting... maybe request some transparency on the issue??? Besides, I thought they were in bed with HTC, like Sprint...? (hehehehe )
Y'all getting played ... Pay attention.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
enlighten us on how were being played... I love a good conspiracy theory...
I HEARD... Samsung sent John to distract attention from the fact that they are currently in hostage negotiations with Sprint, the suitcase full of cash is in transit, and Noobnl has the code to unlock it, but he refuses to share it with anyone because he only cares about glory, so he is meeting John at sxsw to listen to crappy emo music and make the handoff. And THEN Sprint will begin work on adding SprintID and a new, improved, constant Nascar streaming app, which can in no way be turned off. Oh, and HTC assassins are waiting there to shoot Noob so that they can still claim that the EVO is the flagship phone, and artificially make supply of the phone backordered to give the impression to the common consumer that it is not a giant POS. Did I miss anything?
I've never owned a Samsung phone before the Epic. It is my first and MY LAST. HEAR ME SAMSUNG? YOU BLEW IT.
ungovernable1977 said:
enlighten us on how were being played... I love a good conspiracy theory...
I HEARD... Samsung sent John to distract attention from the fact that they are currently in hostage negotiations with Sprint, the suitcase full of cash is in transit, and Noobnl has the code to unlock it, but he refuses to share it with anyone because he only cares about glory, so he is meeting John at sxsw to listen to crappy emo music and make the handoff. And THEN Sprint will begin work on adding SprintID and a new, improved, constant Nascar streaming app, which can in no way be turned off. Oh, and HTC assassins are waiting there to shoot Noob so that they can still claim that the EVO is the flagship phone, and artificially make supply of the phone backordered to give the impression to the common consumer that it is not a giant POS. Did I miss anything?
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Careful....there's many a self-demonstrated poster in these forums that will actually, seriously, believe that too. *g*
Here's to hoping open exchange of dialogue will soon become exchange of sources and binaries!
Honestly, this was my first Samsung phone in about ten years is so far, it's my last.
It's not the lack of Froyo, this is just a simple annoyance. What killed it is GPS that works like crap, barely functioning accelorometer, retarded hardcoded GPS accuracy refusal to do anything about these two issues. I have a bad feeling that the last bug isn't a bug at all, but an attempt to cover up poorly functioning GPS on this phone. If I was Colbert, I'd wag my finger at them.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk
and.... how does this help me???
DiGi760 said:
Do they sell the car docks now? I've seen them on Sammy's web page since launch, but I have been unable to find a single place where it is for sale.
And you do know that the Epic isn't "a year fukin old" yet, don't you? It was announced in June and launched at the end of August which makes it only 6 months old for consumers.
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Click to collapse
2.2 - year old by now.
ungovernable1977 said:
enlighten us on how were being played... I love a good conspiracy theory...
I HEARD... Samsung sent John to distract attention from the fact that they are currently in hostage negotiations with Sprint, the suitcase full of cash is in transit, and Noobnl has the code to unlock it, but he refuses to share it with anyone because he only cares about glory, so he is meeting John at sxsw to listen to crappy emo music and make the handoff. And THEN Sprint will begin work on adding SprintID and a new, improved, constant Nascar streaming app, which can in no way be turned off. Oh, and HTC assassins are waiting there to shoot Noob so that they can still claim that the EVO is the flagship phone, and artificially make supply of the phone backordered to give the impression to the common consumer that it is not a giant POS. Did I miss anything?
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Click to collapse
I will buy that for a dollar....LOL
Sent from DEEZ
Any Twitter/FB spammers reading??? Can you confirm this yourself... another conspiracy... oh my!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=955776
would be funny if it were true... and then SJ does a little dance 'hey! look over here!' hehehe...
im just finding this all funny at this point...
Hi I'm samsungjohn, just wanted to let you guys know that I'm just using this pr to gain rank within the amsung corporation. I figured if I was able to convince everyone to stick with samsung and to keep buying samsung, that I will be soon promoted. In reality I am jus doing this for a job. I don't even own a samsung phone. I own an LG, but thank you for listening to me and allowing me to pull your strings....Public Actions speak louder than words....oh and by the way. The Truth Is What You Make It, and Who You get To Believe In It.
No worries I'm just poking fun at this all. If people have gotten offended by it then the truth lies within the offended. Lol
now if Samsung were to really/officially be changing fo the people they would skip over froyo and be the first to update every galaxy s series to gingerbread. Or at least get froyo out and gingerbread soon after.
And powers at be, feel free to delete or modify this if you like. I've already gotten past the point of anger, and this whole samsung update bs is just a joke to me now. Samsung makes great dumb phones but a smart phone is just isn't worth it.
Too late, too slow, too little.
Samsung unfortunately is still working on the feature-phone timelines. What they (and most other android phone makers, with the possible exception of HTC) seem to not quite understand is that these smartphones are true computers now, and need to be treated as such. The OS is an integral part of phone, perhaps the most important part, and people will not tolerate a company that refuses to update an OS that both has critical bugs (and yes, the GPS bug is a CRITICAL bug), and appears incapable of utilizing the hardware it's surrounded by. It's like Microsoft refusing to repair a Windows bug that kept all printers only printing in black and white. It's almost worse that the hardware is so good, and is being crippled by a poorly customized OS (like tantalus, nearby but unreachable relief is far worse than no possibility of relief at all).
It's going to take a really big step to mollify those that have been burned by this generation of samsung's smartphones. Samsung, if your listening. You've pissed off many of your most important phone buyers. These are the people who less tech-savvy people ask for advice on phones, and for every 1 XDA member offended by your apparent lack of desire to properly support your equipment, you probably lose at least 10 referral sales to companies like HTC.
My recommendation, at least open the source code for the devs to look at, and if you're having software quality problems (and that's the reason you can't get froyo out the door), invite some of the best devs to take a look at the proprietary modules that you're having problems with. Work with the community and you may maintain some degree of support for your next generation of phones. But keep trying to astroturf them, or worse yet, pull a Behold 2 on them, and watch out as your current market lead could easily change next generation.
This was posted by p3droid on mydroidworld - many of us know him, or have at least heard of him. He knows what hes talking about, and this info is somewhat disturbing. This is just a copy/paste of his OP.
Bootloaders, Rooting, Manufacturers, and Carriers
Background
I don't believe that I need to introduce myself, but if I do my name is P3Droid. I am a phone enthusiast and have been working in the Android platform for 17 months. I have been very lucky in my short time on the Android platform. I think more than anything I have been lucky enough to be in the right places at the right times. The day I first saw and played with the Droid (OG) I thought “that is the ugliest damn phone I've ever played with”. Then I was asked back into the store by my friend (nameless) to get some time with the Android platform and he began to explain to me how open the phone was and how a “smart” person could do anything they wanted to the phone. That turned what I thought was an ugly phone into the sexiest beast ever. I guess that was approximately October of 2009, and I was excited about the possibilities and dove right in without checking the depth of the water.
I spent much of the year on an open phone and an open platform, and sometime in July I picked up a Droid X. I soon found a great bunch of friends and we formed Team Black Hat. Really wanting to break the bootloader, we spent more hours working on it than we did our 9 – 5 jobs. Eventually we came to the conclusion (with help from some unique resources), that we were not going to accomplish our objective. Every so often we still pluck away at it, but we have moved on to other things that will help people enjoy their Droid phones.
Fast forward to October 2010. I'm still in love with the concept of android, and I've done more than my share of developing, themeing, creating ROMS and even hacking. *Having been involved in so many things and having developed some unique contacts, I have been privy to information that is not disseminated to the masses. Some of this information I was asked to sit on. Some information I sat on because I felt it was best to do so for our entire community. You have probably seen me rant on occasion about what I thought the community was doing wrong and causing itself future pain. Each of those days I had received even more disheartening information. So where does this leave me? It leaves me with a difficult choice to make. What to tell, how much to tell, and do I want to give information out that could possible be slightly wrong. I've worked very hard to verify things through multiple sources, when possible, and some other information comes from sources so reliable that I take them at their word.
This brings me up to today. I've tossed and turned regarding how to say this, and how to express all of the information and my feelings in regards to this information. I guess the solution is to just let you all decide for yourselves what you think and what you want to do.
One Shoe Falls
Beginning in July, we (TBH), began hearing things about [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]Motorola[/FONT][/FONT] working on ways to make rooting the device more difficult. This was going to be done via [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]Google[/FONT][/FONT] through the kernel. No big deal we thought, the community always finds a way. When Froyo was released and there was no root for some time we became a bit concerned but soon there was a process and even 1-clicks. This was good news and bad news to me, because it simply meant that they would go back to the drawing board and improve upon what they had done.
During this time there were still little rumors here and there about security of devices, and other such things but nothing solid and concrete. Until November.
The Other Shoe Falls
Beginning in October, the information began coming in faster and it had more of a dire ring to it. It was also coming in from multiple sources. I began to rant a little at the state of our community, and that we were the cause of our own woes. So what did I hear?1. New devices would present challenges for the community that would most likely be insurmountable, and that Motorola specifically – would be impossible to hack the bootloader. Considering we never hacked the previous 3G phones, this was less than encouraging.
2.Locked bootloaders, and phones were not a Motorola-only issue, that the major manufacturers and carriers had agreed this was the best course of action.(see new [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]HTC [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]devices[/FONT][/FONT])
3. The driving forces for device lock down was theft of service by rooted users, the return of non-defective devices due to consumer fraud, and the use of non-approved firmware on the networks.I think I posted my first angry message and [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]tweet[/FONT][/FONT] about being a responsible community soon after getting this information. I knew the hand writing was on the wall, and we would not be able to stop what was coming, but maybe we could convince them we were not all thieves and cut throats.
Moving along, December marked a low point for me. The information started to firm up, and I was able to verify it through multiple channels. This information made the previous information look like a day in the park. So what was new?1. Multiple carriers were working collaboratively on a [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]program[/FONT][/FONT] that would be able to identify rooted users and create a database of their meids.
2. Manufacturers who supply Verizon were baking into the roms new security features:
a. one security feature would identify any phone using a tether program to circumvent paying for tethering services. (check your gingerbread DroidX/Droid2 people and try wireless tether)
b. a second security feature would allow the phone to identify itself to the network if rooted.
c. security item number 2 would be used to track, throttle, even possibly restrict full data usage of these rooted phones.The Rubber Meets the Road
So, I wish I had more time to have added this to the original post, but writing something like this takes a lot of time and effort to put all the information into context and provide some form of linear progression.
Lets get on with the story. March of this year was a monumental month for me. The information was unsettling and I felt as if we had a gigantic bulls-eye on our backs.
This is what I have heard:1. The way that they were able to track rooted users is based on pushing updates to phones, and then tracking which meid's did not take the update. There is more to it than this but that is the simple version.
2. More than one major carrier besides Verizon has implemented this program and that all carriers involved had begun tracking rooted phones. All carriers involved were more than pleased with the accuracy of the program.1. What I was not told is what the carriers intended to do with this information.3. In new builds the tracking would be built into the firmware and that if a person removed the tracking from the firmware then the phone would not be verified on the network (i.e. your phone could not make phone calls or access data).
4. Google is working with carriers and manufacturers to secure phones, and although Google is not working to end hacking, it is working to secure the kernel so that no future [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]applications[/FONT][/FONT] can maliciously use exploits to steal end-user information. But in order to gain this level of security this may mean limited chances to root the device. (This item I've been told but not yet able to verify through multiple sources – so take it for what you want)
5. Verizon has successfully used its new programs to throttle data on test devices in accordance with the guidelines of the program.
6. The push is to lock down the devices as tight as can be, but also offer un-lockable devices (Think Nexus S).The question I've asked is why? Why do all this; why go through so much trouble. The answer I get is a very logical one and one I understand even if I don't like it. It is about the money. With LTE arriving and the higher charges for data and tethering, carriers feel they must bottle up the ability of users to root their device and access this data, circumventing the expensive tethering charges.
What I would like to leave you with is that this is not an initiative unique to Verizon or Motorola, this is industry wide and encompassing many manufacturers.
So what does all this mean? You will need to make your own conjectures about what to think of all of this. But, I think that the rooting, hacking, and modding community - as we know it - is living on borrowed time.
In the final analysis of all this I guess I'll leave you with my feelings:
I will take what comes and turn it into a better brighter day, that is all I can do because I do not control the world.
Disclaimers:
I am intentionally not including any names of sources as they do not want to lose their jobs.
This information is being presented to you as I have received and verified it. *
I only deal with information pertaining to US carriers and have no specific knowledge concerning foreign carriers. "
**** the carriers. There will be a revolt. There are enough intelligent people in our community to stop this from happening. I went with the Android OS because Apple is a POS and RIM just doesn't offer what I need in a smart phone. The carriers can try doing what they want but there will be an ugly battle.
Despite this being extremely upsetting news, thanks for sharing it. I'm hoping for the best and not going down without a fight.
Just thought of a potential solution. We could have someone develop a program which accepts these apps and finds whatever sort of signature the carriers are checking for. It can keep it on our phone and ping back to the carriers when queried.
Just a rough idea. But I know there are people far more intelligent than me that can get this done. Or perhaps something more ingenious. I have faith. It will be a nuisance but if we support our strongest devs we will get through this until the carriers piss the **** off.
Isn't Google throwing out the baby with the bathwater here? If the main objective of the carriers is to prevent unauthorized tethering, isn't there a way to do that without blocking root access?
bongd said:
**** the carriers. There will be a revolt. There are enough intelligent people in our community to stop this from happening. I went with the Android OS because Apple is a POS and RIM just doesn't offer what I need in a smart phone. The carriers can try doing what they want but there will be an ugly battle.
Despite this being extremely upsetting news, thanks for sharing it. I'm hoping for the best and not going down without a fight.
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Click to collapse
This is my gut reaction as well. However...... Having spoken with a friend and engineer in the industry (I cannot say her name so take this quote with as much salt as needed) it was explained to me like this.
" Most cell carrier's infastructure are having a tough time dealing with the current customer load as it is. In fact, if you look at events where the influx of people can shut down networks such as AT&T ( the South by South West music fest in Austin TX for example) the cell carries are currently not too worried about losing, what they believe to be, a few customers.
Especially when you figure in the fact that you modding your phone and placing it on thier network is looked upon as you violating their contract. And as it was YOU who violated the contract in thier eyes, the cell carrier can continue charging you for your contract as well as making you purchase an "approved replacement handset"
I am not sure if this is truly the outlook of the carriers or simply the way one employee understands the situation to be......but it wouldnt surprise me if this was exactly how the dev community was viewed by them.
BUT, being around and playing with my phones for a few years now has taught me one thing. There are people on these forums with everybit the brains and know-how as the engineers the carriers employ. And given enough time EVERYTHING can be cracked.
bongd said:
**** the carriers. There will be a revolt. There are enough intelligent people in our community to stop this from happening. I went with the Android OS because Apple is a POS and RIM just doesn't offer what I need in a smart phone. The carriers can try doing what they want but there will be an ugly battle.
Despite this being extremely upsetting news, thanks for sharing it. I'm hoping for the best and not going down without a fight.
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Click to collapse
responses like this make me laugh. A revolt? What, more petitions, more rants on forums? This is a momentum shift that the end user can't do much about. There is pressure from a bunch of angles to start locking down certain aspects of android. If you read the whole post you'd notice the part about how a bunch of these security measures are being baked into android at the google level. This is not just verizon making demands of their phone makers.
and as intelligent as some devs are here, we're going to see their advances slowing way down. People are so hopeful that the devs will crack the bootloader (even though they've driven most of them away), yet they ignore the fact that the droidX has been locked down since release, and little to no progress has been made there. (i'm well aware they are slightly different, so don't bring it up). Even look what they did with the last update to the atrix, they blocked known root methods. No matter what the devs manage to do, teh makers have teams of people that just have to look at the exploits, and close them up.
i'm not saying i agree with the way things are going, i'm just trying to remain focused on the facts and be realistic.
cegna09 said:
responses like this make me laugh. A revolt? What, more petitions, more rants on forums? This is a momentum shift that the end user can't do much about. There is pressure from a bunch of angles to start locking down certain aspects of android. If you read the whole post you'd notice the part about how a bunch of these security measures are being baked into android at the google level. This is not just verizon making demands of their phone makers.
and as intelligent as some devs are here, we're going to see their advances slowing way down. People are so hopeful that the devs will crack the bootloader (even though they've driven most of them away), yet they ignore the fact that the droidX has been locked down since release, and little to no progress has been made there. (i'm well aware they are slightly different, so don't bring it up). Even look what they did with the last update to the atrix, they blocked known root methods. No matter what the devs manage to do, teh makers have teams of people that just have to look at the exploits, and close them up.
i'm not saying i agree with the way things are going, i'm just trying to remain focused on the facts and be realistic.
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I am being realistic. Nothing has been implemented yet, so how can we start brain storming? Nothing but ideas at this point, but it's a hard.
And by a revolt I don't mean one of those stupid petitions. We have people with varying specialties and occupations. Perhaps someone can find a legal clause that will help the battle, something in the ToS that would prevent the segregation of rooted versus non-rooted customers, etc.
Don't get all pissy on me about things. I'm not dreaming of anything outlandish. It's better than being a pessimist and taking it in the ass. Many people chose the Android platform for the freedom it provides. It enough customers are grossly outraged, it will NOT come to pass.
Look at Usage Based Billing. I work for one of the biggest ISPs in Canada and when we tried to introduce UBB we saw customers CHURN tremendously. We've received death threats for Christ sakes... and now ask me, cegna09, please ask if we've decided to go forward and bill customers under UBB?
In case that wasn't blatantly obvious and cynical enough, no, we haven't. It scared CEOs ****less and irritated the hell out of front line staff to the point where many of us feel no loyalty to the company anymore. It has shaken what little trust the consumers had in us and they've flocked for other providers. If Google wants to do this, they'd better be prepared for a ****storm of negative press. This is either fear mongering, exaggerations or a bad idea for Google and wireless carriers.
P.S. I type most of my posts at work so they're not always grammatically sound or eloquent. I don't give a **** though. Thanks for caring.
Okay tracking rooted users is new to me. but I thought the rest was normal procedure?
...Root exploit>carrier update (patches root)>new root exploit>new carrier update (patches new root)>newest root exploit...
How is the op any different than current procedure.? Is it just the addition of carriers tracking rooted users that makes this post notable? Because it seems like scaremongering to me. Should I really be that concerned? I already knew att doesn't like me to tether without a plan, and will do what it can to stop me. I dont have any more reason to believe att will stop service to my phone now than before I read this post.
Basically what started all this guys, was theft of services (free tethering) Everyone who has used the free tethering 'hacks' are largely responsible for this movement. Had everyone modded their phones responsibly, and not stolen services from the carriers because they thought they 'had that right' then this would probably not be happening to the extent that it is. I, for one, do not nor have i ever used a free tethering hack. I have unlimited data and use that freely on my phone. I use my pc for web browsing when i have a lot to do online. Below is a quote from a friend of mine on the Atrixforums.com site that is a very good view and quite accurate interpretation of whats happening.
das8nt said:
Yeah, I always knew something like this was going to come down the pipe... it was only a matter of time.
The third part, The Rubber Meets the Road, has been added. I've had some more time to think about this, and I've come to realize a few things. The following is my opinion on the whole subject. It might not be a very popular one, and posting it is not meant to start a large debate or anything, I just wanted to express my feeling on the matter. Please do not take offense to any of the points I'm trying to make; hopefully some of you know me well enough so far to know that I don't mean offense to anyone.
Opinion starts here...
They're right. The manufacturers, the carriers... they're right. We may not like it, but in the end they both have the full say in what happens. I'll give a few examples in a moment as to why I see it this way, but first I need to let you know where I'm coming from. I have a rooted phone; it's not my first rooted phone. I have tethered; though not often or very much at all, but I have tethered without a tethering plan on my account. I have installed ROMs, custom kernels, MODs, hacks... you name it, I've done it. I enjoy it if only because I can. Did I do it because it was needed? In some circumstances, I might argue, "yes;" in others, not in the slightest... it was just fun. The point to this being is that I have done most of everything that is being discussed in the Food For Thought post; and I've done it because I wanted to.
That brings me to a first example. You buy a car; a $20k car at that. Say you pay cash for it; it's yours. You don't even have to have full coverage insurance on it if you don't want to (some states.) You bought it as you daily driver, but you want to make some mods to it: aftermarket exhaust, lowering kit, cool-air intake.... and nitrous. You can do all of those things.; there's no one stopping you. What you can't do though, is maintain a factory warranty on your new car if you install those mods. When you alter the build of the car you are losing your right to claim that that car was manufactured improperly since it's no longer in the same state in which it was delivered to you. No big deal, right? Nothing ever goes wrong until the warranty expires anyway, we all know that. So, you take it to a drag track to see what it can do; how fast can it go? How quick can it hit the quarter mile line? You want to be know as the fastest, so you don't hold back... you kick in the nitrous.... but there's a problem. You didn't realize that the car was not meant to take that kind of load the way it was built. You blow your engine. Is the dealership or manufacturer going to warranty that engine? Would you really expect them to?
Second example. The same car you purchased, before you ever take it to the track, you want to drive it.... I mean really drive it; feel the true power and handling on the road. You take it out on the Interstate because that has the highest speed limits. You quickly get it up to to 70 mph, but that's not enough. You need more. You start to push it a little farther; no big deal... law enforcement doesn't usually care if you're only going a few mph over the limit, right? Well, you haven't been caught yet, so why not push it a little more? Before you know it you're at 95 mph and you see blue lights coming up quick behind you. Is that office going to let you off the hook because you own the car, have it modded and you feel you can do what you want with it? Would you expect them to?
Yes, we buy the phones. Yes, we own them. Yes, we can mod them how ever we can. What we can't do, though, is agree to a service contract and expect the provider of that contract to allow us to ignore their rules and exploit their services to the point that it costs them money. They are a business. They are not in the business for giving away free service, or replace products because the end user did not use them as intended; if they were they would not be in business very long. The carrier has the right to charge what they do, whether we like it or not. We, as users, have the right to find service elsewhere (most of us) or do with out. We agree to their terms when we allow them to provide us service. You do not have to sign a contract to agree to their terms; activating your phone on their network makes the agreement for you. Manufacturers have the right to lock their phones down, after all, they manufacture them. They are not in business to provide two or three phones for the price of one just because we broke the first couple trying to make them do things they were not intended to do. Again, if they were then they wouldn't be in business very long. If we do not like their practices we can buy from others.
I guess what it all boils down to in my mind is that if modding and hacking had been used the right way, we, the modding community and it's followers, might not have this situation coming down on us. If we did it just to customize our phones the way we want them, I'm sure they would have allowed that and worked with us. Since the opposite has been true for the most part, it surprises me in no way that this is about to happen. Users have been 'jailbreaking' and 'rooting' their phones for years, with a vast majority of them being used to circumvent the rules. So, the rules are about to change... like it or not.
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bongd said:
I am being realistic. Nothing has been implemented yet, so how can we start brain storming? Nothing but ideas at this point, but it's a hard.
And by a revolt I don't mean one of those stupid petitions. We have people with varying specialties and occupations. Perhaps someone can find a legal clause that will help the battle, something in the ToS that would prevent the segregation of rooted versus non-rooted customers, etc.
Don't get all pissy on me about things. I'm not dreaming of anything outlandish. It's better than being a pessimist and taking it in the ass. Many people chose the Android platform for the freedom it provides. It enough customers are grossly outraged, it will NOT come to pass.
Look at Usage Based Billing. I work for one of the biggest ISPs in Canada and when we tried to introduce UBB we saw customers CHURN tremendously. We've received death threats for Christ sakes... and now ask me, cegna09, please ask if we've decided to go forward and bill customers under UBB?
In case that wasn't blatantly obvious and cynical enough, no, we haven't. It scared CEOs ****less and irritated the hell out of front line staff to the point where many of us feel no loyalty to the company anymore. It has shaken what little trust the consumers had in us and they've flocked for other providers. If Google wants to do this, they'd better be prepared for a ****storm of negative press. This is either fear mongering, exaggerations or a bad idea for Google and wireless carriers.
P.S. I type most of my posts at work so they're not always grammatically sound or eloquent. I don't give a **** though. Thanks for caring.
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The world of mobile devices is a bit different though. I would wager a bet that 90% of users have no interest in rooting, modding, etc, or even a knowledge of what it is. They just don't care. So when 10%, or even if it's as high as 20%, of the user base shows dissatisfaction, i doubt it would sway them. In the mobile world you always have the choice to change platforms, carriers, etc. With ISPs (at least here in the US), you really have no choice over who you use for where you live.
And my point on the developers is just that's always easier to close exploits than to find them. And it looks like there is new modification to close exploits. I think it's going to start to turn into a 1 step forward 2 steps back game. I sincerely hope it doesn't go that way, but that's where i see it with the information presented.
The place you might have a chance of fighting is the recent ruling that made it legal to root/jailbreak phones. Though i bet AT&T and verizon's lawyers are hard at work finding ways around that.
Oh, and i never commented on your grammar.
cegna09 said:
The world of mobile devices is a bit different though. I would wager a bet that 90% of users have no interest in rooting, modding, etc, or even a knowledge of what it is. They just don't care. So when 10%, or even if it's as high as 20%, of the user base shows dissatisfaction, i doubt it would sway them. In the mobile world you always have the choice to change platforms, carriers, etc. With ISPs (at least here in the US), you really have no choice over who you use for where you live.
And my point on the developers is just that's always easier to close exploits than to find them. And it looks like there is new modification to close exploits. I think it's going to start to turn into a 1 step forward 2 steps back game. I sincerely hope it doesn't go that way, but that's where i see it with the information presented.
The place you might have a chance of fighting is the recent ruling that made it legal to root/jailbreak phones. Though i bet AT&T and verizon's lawyers are hard at work finding ways around that.
Oh, and i never commented on your grammar.
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I'm sure there are a slew of celebrity lawyers on speed dial, and I know that the Apple jailbreaking case will be strongly referenced if there is a class action lawsuit.
I also recognize and appreciate the circumstances regarding closing and finding exploits. It's always a game of cat and mouse. And it sucks having to find exploits and holes. Sometimes it's easy but sometimes it's extremely tough. I'm hoping it's not the latter.
In any event, I'm going to hold out. I know that there'll be a work around or at least a ton of backlash. You bring up a good point that it's a very small percentage of users who root. But that small percentage is virtually all made up of power users. While we're small in numbers, we're more intelligent than the tweenies who just get Androids for texting and Facebook.
I know that petitions and things like that normally don't get done (I never bothered with the bootloader petition for example) but I know that more constructive and intelligent users will chime in with glorious ideas to keep this **** at bay. I sincerely hope it was a late April fools day joke or something. I don't mind Google data mining and harvesting all my consumer logistics as long as they don't clamp down on my phone. Win win situation. I don't mind their parasitic or insidious intentions at all.
kdspiv said:
And given enough time EVERYTHING can be cracked.
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Except Motorola's bootloaders.
jgc121 -
The two parts of the car arguments are invalid. First, loss of warranty, is invalid due to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (federal law) and states that a manufacturer cannot automatically invalidate a warranty because of what an end-user has done. There's a burden of proof. It's a consumer protection.
On your friend's second point, exceeding the speed limit is illegal. It is not in the same class as modifying a device. There is no law being broken. You might argue that unauthorized tethering is theft, which I'd need to hear the argument for - who has sustained damages? How can those damages be quantified?
I do, however, agree that this has been brought upon by the end-users who do naughty things (unauthorized tethering, malware creation, piracy).
RacecarBMW said:
Except Motorola's bootloaders.
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It only takes one disgruntled or sympathetic employee...Where are the social engineers?
Kueller said:
It only takes one disgruntled or sympathetic employee...Where are the social engineers?
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If only someone was willing to risk their job
phobos512 said:
jgc121 -
The two parts of the car arguments are invalid. First, loss of warranty, is invalid due to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (federal law) and states that a manufacturer cannot automatically invalidate a warranty because of what an end-user has done. There's a burden of proof. It's a consumer protection.
On your friend's second point, exceeding the speed limit is illegal. It is not in the same class as modifying a device. There is no law being broken. You might argue that unauthorized tethering is theft, which I'd need to hear the argument for - who has sustained damages? How can those damages be quantified?
I do, however, agree that this has been brought upon by the end-users who do naughty things (unauthorized tethering, malware creation, piracy).
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If you read how the car arguments are compared - you will understand my friends point. And just by rooting your device, you void your warranty - just like if you add nitrous to your car - warranty gone.... its the same thing. It is the same as modifying these devices, running 'unauthorized firmware' IS technically a warranty voiding action.
Also - these are not MY opinions - just opinions and information from others that im passing along - dont shoot the messenger buddy And tethering without a plan - the way its setup on the network - is theft. It costs them money, and they dont like it.
ok i can sorta understand them wanting to stop free tethering, but why root in general, some people like adding custome roms, or tweaking themes to make their phone that THEY purchased look the way they want it to. I really don't use tether, but locking down root, that's just ridiculous...smh
No; that's exactly my point. Modifying something you own does NOT automatically void the warranty. Read the act; it isn't complicated. I've been modding vehicles for 10 years - I know the law.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act
jgc121 said:
If you read how the car arguments are compared - you will understand my friends point. And just by rooting your device, you void your warranty - just like if you add nitrous to your car - warranty gone.... its the same thing. It is the same as modifying these devices, running 'unauthorized firmware' IS technically a warranty voiding action.
Also - these are not MY opinions - just opinions and information from others that im passing along - dont shoot the messenger buddy And tethering without a plan - the way its setup on the network - is theft. It costs them money, and they dont like it.
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Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
phobos512 said:
No; that's exactly my point. Modifying something you own does NOT automatically void the warranty. Read the act; it isn't complicated. I've been modding vehicles for 10 years - I know the law.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
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I too have been modding vehicles for nearly 15 yrs now, I am an ASE certified technician with EPA certifications, and an Associates Degree in Business Management as well. (Feel free to pm me for proof) I am well aware of this act and the laws. You are missing the point of the previous posts.
A manufacturers warranty would never cover a blown engine due to N20 use.... it just wont. Its intended to cover the engine as it was from the factory. Any changes to the factory setup (within certain limits) are ok. Something like N20 - thats a deal breaker.
As i said before - the previous posts are not MY opinions.... just information i was passing along.
Not sure about that whole Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act..... didn't feel like reading up on it.... but in regards to the whole thing with AT&T and potentially other carriers shutting off all form of cell service to a person with a rooted/jailbroken phone by way of discovery with a special code in the software.... it won't happen unless they're using it in an illegal way (as in using a free tethering workaround, and abusing it to the point that it's easily distinguished that something fishy is going on).... plain and simple. As i mentioned in the other thread with the exact same article linked to in the Atrix forums (one of the other recent threads), the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) was ammended in July 2010, and one of those ammendments was that jailbreaking/rooting a mobile phone to install unauthorized or unapproved applications on the phone is legal.
So.... in regards to the earlier comment someone made laughing at the idea of a "revolt"..... if AT&T starts shutting off service to people who rooted/jailbroke their phone for the sole purpose of either installing a modified ROM or allowing further customisation of the OS than the non-rooted/jailbroke device will allow, then yes, there WOULD be a revolt. That revolt would take the form of... what i believe would fall under a class-action lawsuit. If they can't prove that the person who's service they cut off was using their rooted/jailbroken device in a way that was hindering their service.... which would mostly be the free tethering workarounds and some of those morons downloading quite a few gigabytes of data in a month..... then they would technically be breaking federal law by doing so.
After having passed from brands as Sony Ericsson, Motorola, Nokia in last 15 years, i decided to depart a bit from them. In 15 years just 3 brands you can understand that i like to be loyal to a specific brand...
I decided to go to LG, and oh boy it was a disaster.
After 3-4 months of use i started becoming a lover of LG G2 and i was gathering a list for my next big purchases from Amazon: LG 48" tv, LG phone for my wife and LG sound bar.
However suddenly i noticed a glitch to my L:G G2, a glitch on the feature that i originally selected LG G2: the camera. All photos were blurry. i searched a bit on the internet, and noticed that a lot of users complained about the scratched camera that made the photos blurry.
I tried to fix the lens by myself but with no success... the camera was probably the most important feature on my phone - since i have two little twins to take all day photos!
I sent my phone for repair to a company that LG sent me to, that is their official repair shop: www.fonemaster.com.cy
I told them that this is something that hundreds of people have the same problems from a search online, and gave them numerous links, in order to show that this should have been under warranty.
They came back, not accepting that it was under warranty and i had to pay the repair!
Of course my answer would be f*ck off, and just wanted to throw the phone in the garbage! Fortunately Amazon accepted to send the phone back.
And fortunately i didn't buy all the other products that i wanted to buy from LG, i wouldn't want to deal with their horrible customer service!
After numerous emails to LG, i never got a reply back from them, and they just left a customer alone - and all these: for a replacement accessory costing about 15$ !!
Now we are extremely happy owners of Huawei P7, Sony Xperia, Samsung HwF550 soundbar, and we are going to buy a Samsung TV.
Adios LG, you will get zero from me in the future! NEVER AGAIN LG
Fully understand your issue. Happy to see you found your desired brand.
But this is not a place for you to win Brand-Bashing-Contest.
wajahebat said:
Fully understand your issue. Happy to see you found your desired brand.
But this is not a place for you to win Brand-Bashing-Contest.
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what do you mean by bran-bashing? I dont want sympathy by anyone, just want to let other users know and be prepared for an awful service...
Fekish said:
what do you mean by bran-bashing? I dont want sympathy by anyone, just want to let other users know and be prepared for an awful service...
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I dont see other users complaining like this. Maybe its not particular nowadays. Me too had a bad experience with Samsung Service Centre but thats normal. I dont bash like this in Samsung threads.
To me all brands seems the same, if its your luck happen to get a faulty unit and a not-customer-friendly service, swallow it. This Q&A section is for people to share their technical experience and problems with G2 but not the problems with Service Centre, infact the one you've proceeded is not LG's owned service centre.
Okay im gonna stop here, chill out dude this problem like you faced is not uncommon anymore, all brands are like this.
ok understood.
What frustrates me is that simple things that are so common problems for users, and through google you could easily be aware of it, LG should have known and be able to fix them...
First, I'm having a hard time understand how a scratch lens could cause the image blurry. 99.99% blurry images are user problem but I don't rule out that you are the 0.01% left.
Second, my rule of thumb, if it is really a hardware issue, w/i the first 30 days, I would return to seller for an exchange or refund w/o bothering the mfg. After that, I would contact LG for repair, if it still under warranty, they should do it for free, if not, walk away from them. However, if it isn't under warranty for some reason such physical abusing, hacking, rooting, ...... you should expect to pay.
Third, if you're not happy with one mfg., you can try another. Good luck with Huawei.
Ok,
First: please Google blurry images due to scratched lens. You will understand that the problem is 99.9% a malfunction due to the manufacturer.
Second: i tried to solve my problem with Lg but they didn't want to fix a 3 months old phone
Third: i already decided that i won't buy another lg product
Fourth: what's wrong in expressive my opinion? I should just praise a manufacturer or contribute in ROM development?
Anyways i will say it once more, STAY AWAY FROM LG PRODUCTS, THEY GIVE ZERO SUPPORT
If you need to express your opinion about some bad service you got, do so in the general discussion forum. All this thread is doing is sparking arguments, with people who like lg coming to their defence. Not a particularly useful q&a topic.
OK correct maybe forum section was wrong. It should be changed to general.
But any people having different arguments welcome of course! But absolutely no one will change my mind that LG the WORST BRAND I EVER DEALT WITH
You have to realize that nobody cares you will change your mind or not and nobody cares to convince you that LG is best or worst mfg either.
It is your personal preference. We hear you. Pretty much it.
Well I don't really care about it
Just want to inform potential buyers.
STAY AWAY FROM LG. THEIR SERVICE AND BRAND IS HORRIBLE!
THEY JUST NEED YOUR INITIAL MONEY
i had the same sh*t customer service to, i tried to explain to them about the camera lens being scratched and they also gave me the link you got and i would be charged, but i told them to f*ck off as it should be under warranty, i then fixed the lens myself with some atonish polishing paste, i then got a phone call asking about the phone and i said its fine ive fixed it myself and he asked how so i told him and he said your warranty is now void so i just laughed and told if it breaks mate i will throw it straight in the f*cking bin your warranty is a joke.
its not just LG its all customer services, i think you have to a complete knob end to pass the job interview.
To be honest these days you'd be lucky to get great customer service from any phone manufacturer. Its become an exception rather than the norm. To the OP I hope you get the service you want from Huwaei etc however I wouldn't hold my breath as I've heard equally shocking stories from them
Fekish said:
OK correct maybe forum section was wrong. It should be changed to general.
But any people having different arguments welcome of course! But absolutely no one will change my mind that LG the WORST BRAND I EVER DEALT WITH
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Please get your mommy to change your diaper. Ffs. Whining and crying.
stoney73 said:
Please get your mommy to change your diaper. Ffs. Whining and crying.
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Thanks for stopping by, your life should be full of adventures in front of computer and mobile screens and I appriciate the ten minutes you devoted to write 3 fully understandable sentences... Some people like myself do change their children diapers on a daily basis, something that will happen to you in a decade, after your dad stops giving you money to live and after you start taking to girls instead of just hiding behind usernames...
Fekish said:
Thanks for stopping by, your life should be full of adventures in front of computer and mobile screens and I appriciate the ten minutes you devoted to write 3 fully understandable sentences... Some people like myself do change their children diapers on a daily basis, something that will happen to you in a decade, after your dad stops giving you money to live and after you start taking to girls instead of just hiding behind usernames...
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Some people like yourself should just man up and take it on the chin. Yes, you had poor service. Were you the only one? Nope. Is LG the only company to have poor customer service? Nope. Grow up. You say you have kids of your own? Well stop acting like one, whining and moaning on a forum because something didn't go your way. Although I'm sure you feel so much better having had your tantrum in this thread. So feel free to go on with your life, secure in the knowledge that your drivel has steered every one clear of that crap LG company.
Sent from my SM-T325 using XDA Premium HD app
stoney73 said:
Some people like yourself should just man up and take it on the chin. Yes, you had poor service. Were you the only one? Nope. Is LG the only company to have poor customer service? Nope. Grow up. You say you have kids of your own? Well stop acting like one, whining and moaning on a forum because something didn't go your way. Although I'm sure you feel so much better having had your tantrum in this thread. So feel free to go on with your life, secure in the knowledge that your drivel has steered every one clear of that crap LG company.
Sent from my SM-T325 using XDA Premium HD app
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Do not judge by your standards, i paid for something and quite expensive and i expect to get back the 2 years warranty i paid for. If they do not accept it, then i will for sure make bad advertisement for them. I will not just sit back on my couch as you do, and just buy another phone. I am not a sheep like you are.
End of story - LG IS A HORRIBLE BRAND AND I WOULD STAY AWAY FROM THEM
Fekish said:
Do not judge by your standards, i paid for something and quite expensive and i expect to get back the 2 years warranty i paid for. If they do not accept it, then i will for sure make bad advertisement for them. I will not just sit back on my couch as you do, and just buy another phone. I am not a sheep like you are.
End of story - LG IS A HORRIBLE BRAND AND I WOULD STAY AWAY FROM THEM
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Rofl. A sheep. I change phones every other month. Anything so long as its Android, though I have used iOS in the past. I'm not loyal to any one brand. I use whats best for me. The only bad advertising you are creating is for yourself. Ahh, now I'm on a couch I see. Rofl. Grow up. You got a bad product, and had a bad experience with their customer service. You then had a good experience with Amazons customer service. You got a refund. Move on. Accept you are in the minority. Every company has these issues. Buy each product on its virtues, not because it was manufactured by your favourite, because makes YOU a sheep.
Sent from my SM-T325 using XDA Premium HD app
He stated a well known LG G2 problem. The lens scratches very easily. Even on my own phone i notice scratches. LG will not confirm it's their fault for the obvious reasons.
stoney73 said:
Rofl. A sheep. I change phones every other month. Anything so long as its Android, though I have used iOS in the past. I'm not loyal to any one brand. I use whats best for me. The only bad advertising you are creating is for yourself. Ahh, now I'm on a couch I see. Rofl. Grow up. You got a bad product, and had a bad experience with their customer service. You then had a good experience with Amazons customer service. You got a refund. Move on. Accept you are in the minority. Every company has these issues. Buy each product on its virtues, not because it was manufactured by your favourite, because makes YOU a sheep.
Sent from my SM-T325 using XDA Premium HD app
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i still don't understand why you write in this thread.
Anyway, you "buy" 6 phones each year so i quite understand why you are still reading my thread...
Get a life and move on.