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So I been useing 2.2 for a while and don't c what's so good about it I think the slide stock waz better anyone feel the same as me ?
Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide using XDA App
rok0187 said:
So I been useing 2.2 for a while and don't c what's so good about it I think the slide stock waz better anyone feel the same as me ?
Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
changed your mind huh?
rok0187 12th August 2010, 10:10 AM
ReTweet this post# 14i felt the same way but only thing i missed was swaype and friend stream so i got swpe and simple status wiget and the facebook tweeter apps and iam good runnung 2,2 and loveing it
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=7633138#post7633138
haha FAIL! But I am sure he is allowed to change his mind. He made that post almost a month ago, plenty of time to change his mind.....
But yeah I don't see whats so good about it. I do miss swype but I can really go w/o it as i mostly use my QWERTY or the speech recognition anyway.
All I really use is the live wallpapers and app2sd. Only reason I installed froyo was for app2sd cause my phone kept warning me about low memory.
yup changed my mind it seemed like woo hooo but at the end of the day it just waz 2.1 with live wallpaper i mean maybe under its some major diffrence iam missing but i cant c it
My reasons for 2.2
For storage, the CM6 ROM left me with 138MB or so after flashing, which is way more than stock with all its bloatware. You add native a2sd in the mix and it gets even better. For performance you have JIT which makes things nice and speedy (and it's customizable in CM6). Then you have the neat feature apps that google just released like chrome to phone and the new voice search. Plus other things I'm totally forgetting right now.
Now, you say you missed the friendstream widget and there are alternatives in the market, but, I've been using tweetdeck beta and it's sick! I don't hardly use the facebook and twitter apps anymore! The only thing missing is a widget, which I think they're working on.
But the best reason, I think is, why not?
I could do without Swype nowadays. I switched to Smart Keyboard and loving it. I tried using Swype again after and couldn't deal with it. I guess I only liked the gimmick with it in the beginning.
Using SetCPU 245/245 on screen off totally saves my battery life. I get up to 4 days with it!!!!
I missed Sense when switching over to Froyo but then I found LauncherPro so I'm happy.
I'm pro froyo!!!
I don't think you guys know this.
You can use swype on all the froyo ROMs. Download and install it.
Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide using XDA App
Yea I fig it waz just apps to sd that waz the major thing as far as speed I didn't c a big diffrence in 2.1 to 2.2 but idk I think what drew me to the phone waz the way it waz set up on 2.1 and now its all funny don't get me wrong froyo is kool iam not saying its da worst thing u can do but I don't c any reason to keep it besides apps to sd which I don't even use
Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide using XDA App
Battery life under 2.2 is noticeably better.. even without Setcpu...
but with it sure is nice
I'm not getting 4 days like dude above, but i'm a pretty heavy user and use my phone as a music device when i ride the motorcycle.
Only real problem is a stable wifi tethering app.
YMMV.
- faylix
This complete thread has touched my thoughts and feelings exactly, I recently installed CM 6 with froyo on my slide, and yes, it is less bloated a tad snappier, yes it has JIT, APPS2SD and all that which is great it still does not have keyboard function and shift key lights (which is not necessary but it is OEM stock, I too am missing the original espresso sense UI, if I could at least get APPSTOSD on the stock UI, I would seriously think of going back......
obsidian52 said:
This complete thread has touched my thoughts and feelings exactly, I recently installed CM 6 with froyo on my slide, and yes, it is less bloated a tad snappier, yes it has JIT, APPS2SD and all that which is great it still does not have keyboard function and shift key lights (which is not necessary but it is OEM stock, I too am missing the original espresso sense UI, if I could at least get APPSTOSD on the stock UI, I would seriously think of going back......
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If I remember correctly eugene's Slidemeroot5r1rom is the closest to what you are looking for, it is a 2.1 rom that is stock w/a2sd
obsidian52 said:
This complete thread has touched my thoughts and feelings exactly, I recently installed CM 6 with froyo on my slide, and yes, it is less bloated a tad snappier, yes it has JIT, APPS2SD and all that which is great it still does not have keyboard function and shift key lights (which is not necessary but it is OEM stock, I too am missing the original espresso sense UI, if I could at least get APPSTOSD on the stock UI, I would seriously think of going back......
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
RavenWulf said:
If I remember correctly eugene's Slidemeroot5r1rom is the closest to what you are looking for, it is a 2.1 rom that is stock w/a2sd
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And ChiefzReloaded's CR_MOD_1.35.531_OTA Full ROM has it as well.
heybobitsme said:
And ChiefzReloaded's CR_MOD_1.35.531_OTA Full ROM has it as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would suggest ChiefzReloaded's ROM if you want stock. I am still very undecided about CM Froyo. I think it has some good advantages as mentioned above but I am having a hard time because I have been looking at vanilla android for more than a year on my G1. For the most part I just don't like looking at the vanilla lockscreen anymore. I like the expresso/sense style of lockscreens.
Go ahead and at me to the list on this one too. Beenrunning CM6 for a while and not niticing much of any difference too. Battery last the same for me but then I do have a lot of internet driven apps installed. I admit the main reason for me to switch bacc to 2.1 would be the friend stream from the contacts view. If could add it to 2.2 I would happy with that. Haven't seen anything in the market that can help replace that for me.
So I guess a lot of ppl feel the same way today iam off from wrk iam go back to 2.1 I mean ant nothing holding me to froyo
Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide using XDA App
Ya'll are doing something wrong if froyo isnt faster. Using the ockernals? Running linpack and quadrant, you can see custom is 10x faster than stock.
Yeah sence is nicer, but thats not enough to leave cm6 for me. I like the speed, apps2sd, livewallpaper, customization, etc
Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide using XDA App
guitarist5122 said:
Ya'll are doing something wrong if froyo isnt faster. Using the ockernals? Running linpack and quadrant, you can see custom is 10x faster than stock.
Yeah sence is nicer, but thats not enough to leave cm6 for me. I like the speed, apps2sd, livewallpaper, customization, etc
Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am usuing all the up to date stuff and I do see a slight processor speed uncrease, very little battery life increase, and a definite memory increase. Other than that, froyo seems very "over-rated."
I guess it depends on the person and what he/she wants.
To me froyo is just a bunch of useless customizations with 2 or 3 nifty features.
Espresso froyo better be better than cm6 otherwise android needs some major software improvements...
lettin the hussy role on my MT3G Slide
I just upgraded to an Inspire. The main reason I did is because of HTC Sense. I love the look and feel of it and don't like using any other kind of UI on my phone. However, I also love having the best there is...so here is my question.
Is it possible to get HTC Sense onto the Atrix with just a root? Or will a cracked bootloader the key to doing that?
Sent from my Inspire 4G using XDA App
A locked bootloader would likely not prove to be a problem, but the porting of the framework would almost certainly be very difficult since Sense cannot function without the full custom HTC framework.
Okay. Well I guess I should look and see if there any Sense ports to Motorola devices then. Would the port have to be device-specific? Or would a port to an older Motorola device work just as well?
Sent from my Inspire 4G using XDA App
to get sense running on a non-HTC device, you would need a custom kernel (which a locked bootloader won't allow) with a custom bootclasspath in init.rc. you would also need to bring over all the HTC Sense framework with modified binaries to support your platform (android hardware legacy binaries) and modify egl.cfg to support the GPU in the phone. after that, there's of course other hardware lib's that would need to be modified to get GPS and bluetooth working (usually through more hex hacking) and, last but not least, decompiling and recompiling the sense framework to interface properly with the RIL.
so basically you'd have to overcome a (potentially/likely) locked bootloader and troubleshoot constantly to figure out what's wrong with each piece of hardware in the device (feasible, but long and frustrating). there are several devices out there that aren't intended to run Sense that do (the OG droid/milestone being one), and the process is long and complicated. jamezelle (who ported Sense to the droid/milestone) helped us ATTEMPT to port it to the SGS devices (myself and rafyvitto on the Captivate) and it ended up being more than either of us could handle and died.
That sounds like a complete pain in the a** lol. At least you gave it a shot. That's a lot more than I would be capable of doing. But oh well then...I guess I will have to wait for an HTC device with a dual or quad core chip and in the mean time, I can have a blast with my Inspire. Thank you both for your quick feedback.
Sent from my Inspire 4G.
what exactly do you want from sense? you can mimic a bunch of it with other launchers and widgets. Launcher pro has a bunch of sense like widgets, and Beautiful Widgets will give you a couple more. You won't have the sense launcher bar, or lock screen, but to be honest i think those are crap.
cegna09 said:
what exactly do you want from sense? you can mimic a bunch of it with other launchers and widgets. Launcher pro has a bunch of sense like widgets, and Beautiful Widgets will give you a couple more. You won't have the sense launcher bar, or lock screen, but to be honest i think those are crap.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly, With Launcher Pro Plus you basically get all the sense widgets, and there is a theme to make it look exactly the same as SenseUI.
Squeak22 said:
Exactly, With Launcher Pro Plus you basically get all the sense widgets, and there is a theme to make it look exactly the same as SenseUI.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What is the theme called? interesting
OK but how can we get rid of MotoBlur completely and put launcher pro on the basic android? Does it need root or unlocked bootloader?
sservati said:
OK but how can we get rid of MotoBlur completely and put launcher pro on the basic android? Does it need root or unlocked bootloader?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LauncherPro is just an alternative launcher, just install it from the marketplace >_>
motoblur isn't JUST a launcher, it's a whole framework. just like sense is a framework and launcher. removing motoblur is far more involved than changing launchers...
Another thing to consider is the legality of doing so.
Android is open source, but Sense is proprietary. In principles HTC can take legal action even for those devs who are making their custom roms loaded with Sense. But so far HTC has not done so, and I kind of feel that HTC is relatively open (relative to other manufacturers, like Motorola) to devs customizing their phones.
But as you said, Sense is the reason why you are getting the Inspire 4G, it is a valuable piece of proprietary to HTC. Once people go crazy and start porting Sense to every other major competing devices, it's only a matter of time before HTC starts issuing cease and desist letters to all the devs.
I would like to see this happen i would donate but only if it wasnt ridiculously buggy...would have to be somewhat stable
Yea. TBH at this point I am ACTUALLY considering Telus Desire HD instead of Atrix on bell simply because of sense.
Its not only the great looking widgets... but the various built in applications and the design of interface that looks much more nicer imo.
Sense brings ALOT of usability to android, and Personally.... I cant run Clean Android.
Only reason I pick up android is BECAUSE of sense. So... would donate if its possible, otherwise will wait for HTC dual core or will get Desire HD.
Battery life on any sense device is horendous...i got the desire hd on telus for my girlfriend and it last ok for her but if your a power user that 1350mah battery is going to die really fast especially at hsdpa
sent from my HoneyBread CM7 RC1 HTC Desire Zed
why is this one of the first things posted in dev sections? Sense sucks.
Sense doesn't suck lol. It's very customizable and flows pretty well. I haven't tried launcher pro but I'll definitely check it out and see if I like it. I've heard others say good things about it, but as I've said previously, I'm just very used to Sense.
Oh and about battery life. I get just over a days charge with moderate use, ie. Wi-Fi, HSPA, games, GPS, and about an hour of talk-time. I charge my phone every night regardless of how much battery life is left.
Sent from my Inspire 4G.
Sense is really sluggish..
sent from my HoneyBread CM7 RC1 HTC Desire Zed
SN4K3B1T3 said:
Sense is really sluggish..
sent from my HoneyBread CM7 RC1 HTC Desire Zed
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not on this phone. There is no lag and everything flows extremely well.
Sent from my Inspire 4G.
slapdaddy said:
Not on this phone. There is no lag and everything flows extremely well.
Sent from my Inspire 4G.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I had to oc my desire z all the way to 1.2 or 1.4 cuz it would run really lagy...now on cm7 with way more apps and widgets at 1.1 and its way smoother than sense ever was for me
sent from my HoneyBread CM7 RC1 HTC Desire Zed
SN4K3B1T3 said:
I had to oc my desire z all the way to 1.2 or 1.4 cuz it would run really lagy...now on cm7 with way more apps and widgets at 1.1 and its way smoother than sense ever was for me
sent from my HoneyBread CM7 RC1 HTC Desire Zed
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's a lot of overclock. This is at stock 1GHz and is very smooth...no problems here. I'm wondering what 1.2 would do on the Inspire.
Sent from my Inspire 4G.
Just got my hands on my DHD today, since I came from iphone 4, I can't help but compare it heavily.
First few hours of use, I find myself doing a lot of "accidental tap" easily, like when I swipe the screen for scrolling, I pretty much always will end up clicking on something by accident. Is there anyway you can tone down that sensitivity? This problem doesn't really happy when I am using iphone
And the scrolling menu feels a little sluggish/laggy compare to iphone 4 as well. Will this improve if I install a good Custom Rom?
Just wondering anyone out there feels the same?
I've had an iPhone 4 since release day (it was my first iPhone) and also got a DHD today, mainly to scratch the itch that has always been there and so I can decide which one to keep/sell.
I haven't noticed the touch being too sensitive, however you're right about it not feeling as 'smooth' overall as iOS, and I think it's because Android does not yet benefit from GPU acceleration whereas iOS and WP7 do. I believe it is set to get GPU acceleration in the future.
thanks for your reply.
I think I will test the phone until the battery runs out and see how long it lasts.
In the meantime, I will decide which customROM to go for until it does.
Don't let the first charge/discharge put you off the battery life, it is possible to 'train' your battery by calibrating it, making it last as long as possible.
Thanks I will.keep that in mind
Sent from my Desire HD using XDA App
As for the scrolling, you may want to try some launchers other than Sense on the market. I use LauncherPro, and I rarely feel the lag. However, there's still some differences in smoothness when compared to the iphone4.
Yep launcher pro seems to be gpu accelerated so yeah its very smooth scrolling around the app menu and on home screens. I switched from sense to launcher pro about 2 week ago and I can't believe I stayed on sense, though I was more than happy on sense lpp is just too awesome.
I also have a screen protector so I've lost some sensitivity anyways.
Sent from my Desire HD using XDA App
Another thing is to switch on USB Debugging for general use (Settings > Applications > Development). I had a rather noticable lag until I did this, and now it is non-existent.
Of course, running Android Revolution 2.0.13 at 1.23 Ghz might also have something to do with my increased performance... ;-)
letom said:
Yep launcher pro seems to be gpu accelerated so yeah its very smooth scrolling around the app menu and on home screens. I switched from sense to launcher pro about 2 week ago and I can't believe I stayed on sense, though I was more than happy on sense lpp is just too awesome.
I also have a screen protector so I've lost some sensitivity anyways.
Sent from my Desire HD using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Android dosent support h/w accelerated ui's yet, so none of thoes home replacments are.
Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk
So there is no such thing as CPU acceleration yet even in 2.3 based roms?
Sent from my Desire HD using XDA App
franklin20uk said:
So there is no such thing as CPU acceleration yet even in 2.3 based roms?
Sent from my Desire HD using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope, no GPU acceleration yet, unless honeycomb has it?
Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk
AndroHero said:
Nope, no GPU acceleration yet, unless honeycomb has it?
Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So what does tools like CPU Governor do, like you can set your cpu speed with minimum and maxmumspeed?
franklin20uk said:
So what does tools like CPU Governor do, like you can set your cpu speed with minimum and maxmumspeed?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're confusing CPU and G(Graphics)PU - there's no GPU acceleration yet in Android.
Hi is there anyway to stick the old lockscreen bk on,I'm starting to think the 3.0 is actually overrated?
Any ideas
Sent from my HTC Desire HD using XDA App
Solved this
Nope its fine,i got the install htc lock screen for arhd 5. just on the off chance it works on 6.1.1. and sweet as rhubarab and custards,i have the old blackness back.Good times
Really? You flashed the restore lockscreen for sense 2.1 on a sense 3.0 rom and it worked? That's really surprising.
to be fair,i held no hope of it working,it works fine,theres no lag involved.somehow it works so happy days.The 3.0 rings okay but i dont find it as user friendly anyway,some shortcuts which is no big deal to lose
^^
The lockscreen is the only thing Sense3 has going for it imho. I think its very good and the extra shortcuts are nice, but what i really love is that you can put analog clock widgets on the lockscreen. I'm one of those guys that can read the time about twice as fast on analog clocks
I even use the lockscreen on my current rom MIUI, i've used it for too long now my thumb always wants to go up for unlocking
Don't get me wrong I like it,think I just got far too used to the old one haha.
Sent from my HTC Desire HD using XDA App
Is it just me, or is touchwiz on a tablet actually really nice :L
i know it slows the tab down, but the widgets icons and notification bar r really minimalist and generally not bad looking!
And the fact that stock touchwiz hc roms come with polaris office and a pen memo means that i dont really mind the occasional lag it has :L
Im also looking forward to the ics touchwiz build aswell.
Does anyone agree with me?
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
adamski123 said:
Is it just me, or is touchwiz on a tablet actually really nice :L
i know it slows the tab down, but the widgets icons and notification bar r really minimalist and generally not bad looking!
And the fact that stock touchwiz hc roms come with polaris office and a pen memo means that i dont really mind the occasional lag it has :L
Im also looking forward to the ics touchwiz build aswell.
Does anyone agree with me?
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wow dude. This is bold. I don't totally disagree with you (in fact, I don't have much of an opinion one way or another), but you're definitely in the minority around here... I'll apologize in advance for the nonsense flames you'll get for posting this.
slack04 said:
Wow dude. This is bold. I don't totally disagree with you (in fact, I don't have much of an opinion one way or another), but you're definitely in the minority around here... I'll apologize in advance for the nonsense flames you'll get for posting this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah that's the thing though, a while I understand touchwiz on a phone is ugly. On a tablet its actually nice. :L they (samsung) havent done that much in terms of looks with tw, which is gd.
So yeah, bring on the trolls
I don't really see it. I have been using touching HC 3.2 for as long as I have the tablet. I just recently installed touchwiz-less ICS and now never want to go back to touching. I do not miss polarised office at all since it doesn't work with swiftkey tablet x, and ihave replaced pen memo with quill, which was only 20 cents. But I guess tastes are different...
Localhorst86 said:
I don't really see it. I have been using touching HC 3.2 for as long as I have the tablet. I just recently installed touchwiz-less ICS and now never want to go back to touching. I do not miss polarised office at all since it doesn't work with swiftkey tablet x, and ihave replaced pen memo with quill, which was only 20 cents. But I guess tastes are different...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fair enough mate.
I can understand why u dont like touchwiz, and i know ics is amazing.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
Well, there are a few things I didn't like about TW:
1. Bright settings menu. The whole tab felt that it should have a dark theme and in most places it did. But then there was the settings menu that feels out of place.
2. The statusbar is annoying. I don't know how often I accidentally made a Screenshot when I didn't want to. Or brought up the pop up bar which contains alps I never use.
Localhorst86 said:
Well, there are a few things I didn't like about TW:
1. Bright settings menu. The whole tab felt that it should have a dark theme and in most places it did. But then there was the settings menu that feels out of place.
2. The statusbar is annoying. I don't know how often I accidentally made a Screenshot when I didn't want to. Or brought up the pop up bar which contains alps I never use.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok yeh i get it about the settings. But the screenshot button is useful. And im sure in the newer versions of tw u can have custom apps in the pop up bar?
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
Localhorst86 said:
2. Or brought up the pop up bar which contains alps I never use.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
is there a way to change those apps on the pop up bar? That would actually be useful if you could customize that.
mike-y said:
is there a way to change those apps on the pop up bar? That would actually be useful if you could customize that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I vaguely remember seeing the gtab 7.7 having the option to edit the pop up bar...
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
adamski123 said:
Ok yeh i get it about the settings. But the screenshot button is useful. And im sure in the newer versions of tw u can have custom apps in the pop up bar?
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Having a Screenshot function available is nice, but I agree. But I prefer the way the ICS Rom I am using implements it: hidden in the power menu. I mean, why would you need it readily available at all times?
Localhorst86 said:
Having a Screenshot function available is nice, but I agree. But I prefer the way the ICS Rom I am using implements it: hidden in the power menu. I mean, why would you need it readily available at all times?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Im not sure that stock ics has the screenshot function in the power menu. Its only added in later on through custom roms and tweaks such as enabling it in rom control :L
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
Yeah, but in the same respect I am not even sure if the things I complain about a HC or TW features
Localhorst86 said:
Yeah, but in the same respect I am not even sure if the things I complain about a HC or TW features
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Haha fair enough. Tbh HC was a bit of a fail on googles part. It felt rushed and ill prepared. Hopefully ics will iron out everything.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
adamski123 said:
Im not sure that stock ics has the screenshot function in the power menu. Its only added in later on through custom roms and tweaks such as enabling it in rom control :L
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
nah its there by default in ics
its one of ics main selling points
btw for the record i love touchwiz just because of the extra features like mini apps
the ui hasnt really affected me as i probs only have had my tab with stocktouchwiz theme for about 2 weeks when i got it
BroBot175 said:
nah its there by default in ics
its one of ics main selling points
btw for the record i love touchwiz just because of the extra features like mini apps
the ui hasnt really affected me as i probs only have had my tab with stocktouchwiz theme for about 2 weeks when i got it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Whoops my bad xD haha yes the calculator and task manager r soo useful
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
Honeycomb is a very good concept but a "beta version" software: slow, laggy, unstable and incomplete in several ways... I got my G.Tab 10.1 in January and 2 weeks later I flashed (and kept updated ever since) ICS KANG and loving it.
That said, I do like the added Samsung apps and functionality (on both my Note and my G.Tab 10.1) so as soon as it comes out I will flash Samsung's ICS update.
The Note is already great as it is on the latest LB1 Gingerbread ROM so I don't mind waiting a little more for ICS BUT I really can't wait to get Samsung's ICS ROM for the Tab 10.1 and pretty pissed off that they can't seem to be able to give a less vague date.
I hope they make it up to me by adding the split screen funcionality shown off on the Note 10.1 and a revamped note app which syncs across my Note's S Memo app and Outlook notes..
I think touchwiz on 3.X is amazing, really improves the experience. I cringe whenever I see the stock notification bar (I have to open it, hit settings and then hit settings again to actually open the settings compared to open it and hit settings once in touchwiz).
If touchwiz is that amazing, what's HTC sense? Sense is great on both phones and tabs. Look at the HTC jetstream, HTC did a much better job then Samsung.
I don't mind Touchwiz. I like some of the little extras, etc. Stock Honeycomb is still fugly so TW helps a tad, but since it's so light, not much. ICS is a huge improvement on phones, but not so much in tablets. It's bascially what Honeycomb should have been in the first place.
I'd rather have HTC Sense, but since HTC never had any good wifi tablets last year, it just wasn't in the cards. I will say, the GT 10.1 has been a good tablet and does everything I need it to do, but I won't be buying anymore Samsung products like.... um.... Ever. My next tab will be W8 and probably from Asus or something.
I have never liked HTC Sense at all, Touchwiz is a great compromise between adding functionality and staying as close as possible at the "Android experience" (which keeps on getting better and better). Ideally I would like to have a consistent experience across all Android devices with, at best, "touches" added by the different makers and design and hardware to differentiate among them. Sense goes totally against this.