Database Users

WAREZ everywhere... and even here

I used to confuse this forum with a decent place for technical discussion of technical issues related to HTC devices, this illusion was short lived People are just casually dropping links to warez and no one seems to care! no moderation whatsoever. Take this example: A rigged license file for the most marvelous software ever for Windows mobile: Igo8 was put two months ago here. I complained quite clearly, and requested moderators for action in the respective thread here. No action whatsoever! Now look at this glorious post in the same thread here, the whole rigged software is available for your kind usage. It seems there is no stopping!
Please understand my harsh tone has a deeper reason. I am quite sure that this is the only reason why windows mobile is taking such strong bashing from iphone.... such a mature platform taking beating from a newborn! The reason is: developers get a few bucks in return of there hard work for iphone, while for windows mobile ppl just run for the rigged versions everywhere. If software developers are not paid back their hard-earned money, they will just look away, stop developing for windows, now that they have a much viable alternate like iphone and others. We all have to think about this! This is a doomsday scenario for WM.
Best regards!

if you havent heard, the jailbroken iphones have a program called Installer...where they get all the apps for free too just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents ... i just dont see the reason why it would bother you, it's neither one of our faults, its the way the website monitors their threads ... no need to make a whole new thread bashing the website

elite-fusion said:
if you havent heard, the jailbroken iphones have a program called Installer...where they get all the apps for free too just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents ... i just dont see the reason why it would bother you, it's neither one of our faults, its the way the website monitors their threads ... no need to make a whole new thread bashing the website
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Thats not the point... and the purpose of this thread isn’t "bashing" this forum. The point is, we here should not facilitate the downward spiral windows mobile is in right now, we should have strict action against it at least within the discussions here. I know about iphone jail breaking, but its ease and availability is no where close to WM... iphone app developers are really earning money, the proof of this pudding is in eating. Just last year, we all were laughing at iphone not having an SDK. Now, if i try to google an app for my WM, the search return iphone app instead!

Deep Breath.......
waqarz said:
Thats not the point... etc,etc,etc !
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When I first started to read your initial post I thought - Hear we go, another over exaggerated claim and a rant about how poorly the site is managed.... but as I finished reading I thought "Yep" your at least partly right - there's far more "abuse" of the forum and site now in many ways than there was a year ago - not just on the Warez front either - So I'm very much with you there and in support of your "general" comments.... However....
Membership of XDA Developers has rocketed in the past 12 months (or so it seems????) as has the activity and number of posts/comments/hits per day - and not just in this section but in many others.... which is of course a good thing - but..... with all the extra traffic and all the extra members so the "unwanted" aspects also experientially increase - and "OUR" moderators have far more to monitor and try to manage (as well as helping out and offering advice themselves when they can) and this is the part you seem to have missed as others often do - the moderators are NOT paid - its something they do because they want to and because they can.....
I would actively encourage you, and ALL other members to continue to report abuse of the site and on the forums and to actively discourage other members by highlighting (as you have) inappropriate behaviour so we can self regulate as much as possible.
Of course, if the moderators have time and the inclination to step in and take action then that’s great, if not - then lets help by policing ourselves and offering offenders (quite often misguided I'm sure) some friendly but firm advice - if its ignored then what more can we do.
Deep Breath.......
.

"the downward spiral windows mobile is in right now"
Dear Don Quixote, i beg to differ. The """downward""" spiral is becoase of crappy operating system and warez has nothing to do with it. And well, iphone is trendy :lol: I dont condone warez but i am organically alergic to more-god-than-god people like you.
And stop annoying people here, go to the kindergarten and yell "new torrent tracker". You will be amazed how many kids will turn around.

waqarz said:
I used to confuse this forum with a decent place for technical discussion of technical issues related to HTC devices, this illusion was short lived People are just casually dropping links to warez and no one seems to care! no moderation whatsoever. Take this example: A rigged license file for the most marvelous software ever for Windows mobile: Igo8 was put two months ago here. I complained quite clearly, and requested moderators for action in the respective thread here. No action whatsoever! Now look at this glorious post in the same thread here, the whole rigged software is available for your kind usage. It seems there is no stopping!
Please understand my harsh tone has a deeper reason. I am quite sure that this is the only reason why windows mobile is taking such strong bashing from iphone.... such a mature platform taking beating from a newborn! The reason is: developers get a few bucks in return of there hard work for iphone, while for windows mobile ppl just run for the rigged versions everywhere. If software developers are not paid back their hard-earned money, they will just look away, stop developing for windows, now that they have a much viable alternate like iphone and others. We all have to think about this! This is a doomsday scenario for WM.
Best regards!
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The best you can do to help stopping this is to report the post or member clicking on the report symbol next to the post #, or post it in spam section here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=306366&page=22
That way Mods can take an action.
There are so many threads that is difficult to monitor all

If you have a problem
use the report button, we are here to help.
we can't be everywhere so you need to tell us so we can act.
thank you.

liamhere said:
use the report button, we are here to help.
we can't be everywhere so you need to tell us so we can act.
thank you.
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Thanks, I really should have used the "report" link, my bad!
I really do appreciate all the volunteer work being done here by moderators and other resonable members. I myself moderate a few forums, not as large as this though and to some extend I know the toll. All, keep up the good work!
I still have a suggestion, members doing strict violation of policy should be warned and later banned!
Best regards.

waqarz said:
I still have a suggestion, members doing strict violation of policy should be warned and later banned!
Best regards.
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Nah just electrocute them first, warn them if they recover.

fards said:
Nah just electrocute them first, warn them if they recover.
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Good one

waqarz said:
...
I am quite sure that this is the only reason why windows mobile is taking such strong bashing from iphone.... such a mature platform taking beating from a newborn! The reason is: developers get a few bucks in return of there hard work for iphone, while for windows mobile ppl just run for the rigged versions everywhere. If software developers are not paid back their hard-earned money, they will just look away, stop developing for windows, now that they have a much viable alternate like iphone and others. We all have to think about this! This is a doomsday scenario for WM...
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as someone else already did
i must disagree with you on one point, why WinMo "...is taking such strong bashing from..." iPhone
it has nothing to do with Warez, your argument seems uninformed and almost sounds like bashing
Using the iPhone for any length of time you'll realize just how much time was put into the user experience, no manual, no class, just pick up and use. WinMo had thought behind it's design, but it was designed about a decade ago, to be used with a stylus. As is it's hopelessly outdated in look and feel (Windows 3.1 anyone, that's mature too by now)
As for the reason it seams that developers do better on the iPhone it's the same thing; thought. Thought put into the experience of using the AppStore. no serial headaches, integration, updates, and backup - just works. Like iTunes it's just easy to use for average people, Handago (or whatever is compatible with AppStore) is NOT easy.
Ignoring the needs of users and no real innovation from Redmond is doomsday for WinMo. Not Warez (which, as mentioned exist for the iPhone too, and it's this easy).
P.S. never had an Apple product, but if iPhone had Copy & Paste i'd own one now, not the HD
P.P.S. there is somewhat of a backlash in the Apple community against quality control, bad developers, and no "try before you buy" in the AppStore. if interested please read here then here.

The only thing why Iphone have so many Apps (and good apps) is the Appstore (one place for all apps), and the Hype. And ofcourse its only 1 device, with 1 displaysize, 1 processor and 1 input type.
On WM we got several desplaysizes, devices, processors and input types.
Its much more easy and cheaply to develope for 1 device than for thousands.
If we get also a appstore i am really safe that we get more good apps and games for our WM Devices.
Second:
I think delevopers do a hard job and develope good apps, and we shall donate to them. I work for a big software company and also hate warez. Warez is not good, but do not exaggerate nevertheless times! I do not think that here possibly someone such things with intention.
Third:
Sorry for my bad english.

Sir.B said:
as someone else already did
i must disagree with you on one point, why WinMo "...is taking such strong bashing from..." iPhone
it has nothing to do with Warez, your argument seems uninformed and almost sounds like bashing
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You cant be serious right? Go through these 3 articles, just the first 3 hits on google:
http://msmobiles.com/news.php/6459.html
http://www.fiercedeveloper.com/report/mobile-pda-software-piracy-and-warez
http://apcmag.com/windows_mobile_6_pirated.htm
Take one example: just over the last year, hundreds of thousands of people have illegally shared navigation maps, a conservative estimate of loss is in millions of dollars.
I an NOT claiming piracy is the only problem with WM, but it sure is a BIG contributor, this is my only point in this discussion. The reasons and implications are many and I cant go into details. I really feel sorry, my own mistake, dropping in the word "iphone" always ends up in a useless debate! Many threads here being trashed because of this.
Best regards.

[A THOUGHT] Copying in an Open Community

Android is open. That's why I have my Samsung Galaxy S, my Nexus One and my Sapphire.
I have these phones because the open community can do better than the professionals, and I am proud to be a member of a community that has recently hacked Froyo onto the G1, Android2HD2 (and other Winmo devices), created great skins and themes, rooted almost every droid to date, hacked google navigation to work in other countries etc etc etc.
There is amazing work being done is this community.
Kingklick was able to put out a lot of ROMs which satisfied a lot of people. Contributors to Cyanogenmod (disclaimer. notably not Cyanogen himself) and others (fans and friends - disclaimer. note lack of word fanboys - of cyanogenmod, disclaimer. plus some others too) have flamed and flamed away about Kangklick (notably via twitter - I have stopped following any of those jerks that clogged up my feeds with what could've - screw that - should've been settled MUCH more privately..I followed you guys for dev news or the occasional interesting insight into your real life, not your petty bickering, but you have every right to post what you like...hence why I stopped following you all, I didn't flame you...note 'bigger man').
Rule 12 of XDArules clearly states that using the work of others must be done with permission, independent of whether it is open source or not. If this is not upheld then the post will be bought down, it does not say the user will be banned. I would understand the formality of taking the post down and requesting Kingklick reposts the ROM with due credit, but I believe - note believe...implies opinion - that moderators may have been influenced by pressure from other (high ranking, public eye) members and thus did not adhere to normal or just (I do not know if not giving creds is normally treated in this way, but you will discover I believe it shouldn't be) protacol. Kingklick broke the rules of XDA, but then again I see his banning as the least contentious issue here.
I believe that members of the XDA community in the public eye (ie with large Twitter follower base) due to their work via XDA (no matter what you say, cyanogenmod may be based at its own domain, but it still posts at XDA to maintain its public profile and feed of the massive XDA userbase, and is hence in part bound by this) have a responsibility to follow the rules of XDA on XDA rules and disputes. I do not think this is something which can be policed ('I'm banning you Wes for Trolling Kingklick...on Twitter'... not gonna work) but I think it is a moral obligation (anyone that thinks the internet is not bound by morality should take a reality check...the reason why we have open source is essentially ethics).
Do we give credit to Linus Torvalds every time we distribute linux kernels or work to do with linux? Do we give credit to those that helped him create this base? Do we give credit to Google for creating Android? HTC? Our carriers? Martin Cooper for inventing the mobile phone and cell networks? Time Berners-Lee for inventing the internet, giving rise to this forum, Google and thus the Phones/Devices we love and use? The fact is we don't give credit where due (although you may say its obscure to thank these people, they DO deserve our thanks). None of the ROM chefs/coders give all credit where due, but a lot do in part, with those directly involved. But who still thanks the original rooters?
Kingklick has been declared a copier by the jury...I haven't delved through the evidence to confirm this...but shouldn't we be much more relaxed about copying in general? All users should be open about their work with Android, but they are not. If kingklick based a build off Cyanongenmod, and gave due credit for that, he would be called unoriginal, despite his attempts to make improvements. I also believe that there should be transparency, a log of all complaints of interest and the community told in a statement from the mods why someone was banned...at least in part (keeping gory details to themselves thank you very much).
Donations are generally given by 'end-users'...noobs who can flash and maybe do some work on the builds but their contributions are limited. End users generally want user experience, and reward devs with commendation and donations. If kingklick does work on a build which satisfies more users and he hence gets donations, is that stealing donations? No. The original dev works on an open source project knowing that their work is open, but the end user can reward as he/she likes. Perhaps kingklick developed his following due to his branding...he did always use words like FAST and STABLE and SMOOTH, but Apple do the same and they're not banned from trading despite the hyperbole.
I do not doubt that a lot of devs thanks fellow devs with donations. Cyanogen is well known for donating, as is kingklick, however a lot of donations come from end users, and if kingklick replaces a few files using winrar (something which I generally contest, I believe kingklick does a lot of great work) and that satisfies more end users by being fast and stable and smooth (or perceived as being so thanks to branding) then he can get donations for that, they are a gesture of satisfaction and goodwill.
Kingklick was immoral by not giving true credit, however I believe that he could have been warned and asked to give credit once he got back from his night out (whether that excuse, or what ever his actual excuse was, was true).
I also laugh at the accusation that kingklick does not fill a niche within the 'open'/'free' community. This should not result in grudges and flame wars, whether it is true or not. Kingklick did fill a niche in my opinion: reviewers (and consumers) see vanilla android as being sterile. Hell it is sterile, and it's never going to be as successful as others if it doesn't sort this out. Cyanogenmod and other big names are based off this sterile form of Android, but they don't delve into Sense UI and other alternative skins, mainly due to preferences or copyright problems etc, not that that stops them with other things. Kingklick did work with these and he filled his niche by delivering great, fast, usable roms of these whilst others sneered at them for being inefficient coding or whatever...geeky snobbery.
Kingklick also delivered various fixes and things which other groups did not. I won't list all of these and I am sure representatives of Cyanogenmob et al will say 'we were gonna fix these issues anyways' or 'that's redundant' or 'that was patchy code', but kingklick has contributed. Obviously we have to hold ethics above output, we can not say that 'his holiness' (inteneded to mock those who believe cyanogen alone is a god, not cyanogen himself) Cyanogen's contributions to android exempt him from following conduct, but we do a great job of driving away good developers with flaming and telling tales. Perhaps you'll say kingklick was not a good developer, Drizzy, even Haykuro etc etc, but I only flashed Cyanogenmod on my Nexus once and I didn't like it for various reasons (personal preference yada yada) but I kept going back for more kingklick...whether that's perceived speed and branding etc or just satisfaction.
King's desire roms are great, but we never mobbed, trolled and banned the poor guy for not giving creds to HTC. Surely the morality of our community using software like Rosie on the Nexus is more ethically questionable than a fellow member of XDA's work, since HTC is a firm which employs people. I bought a Nexus over the Desire because I knew I could still have Sense and a bigger dev community, however the cost included in the Desire which goes to the developers of Sense is hence forgone (perhaps indeirectly, I don;t know HTC internal funding); therefore I have - and anyone who has ever flashed a Sense ROM or devved with Sense - indirectly caused loss of welfare for people who rely of developing as their source of income, tehir families, communities and economies. Surely that is less ethical than not saying thank you, but XDA has no problem with that. Perhaps it is too small to notice, but it will have an indirect impact nonetheless.
Yes kingklick should've said his please and thank you, but I think it's community hyped double standards, pretensical courtesy (not that I wouldn't give creds, it's just that pleases and thank yous are nice, but not actually useful). A wise man once said 'there is no threshold for immorality', just because kingklick did a larger 'crime' than the rest of the community in not giving his thanks out, that does not exempt the other rule breakers (ie everyone), it just means their punishment should be less severe...we choose to ignore it because it's less direct or forgotten about.
In conclusion, I think we should start a 'contributors to Android' part of XDA, added to by mods or specifically appointed members of the community (like the portal). This could be informative and could mean that forgotten about contributors could not be forgotten, but their contributions immortalised in the open community of Android. Even if the contributions become redundant, they are the foundations for the next chapter in the Android story.
Finally. www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html is a very good read..and think about what AOSP stands for (I'll give you a clue...Android Open Source Project!). Can you steal what is open? What right have others to dictate what can and cannot be distributed in the open aspects of Android code (ie the underlying OS and vanilla UI...I'm not confused with Apps). Perhaps kingklick was guilty of plagiarism? But so is anyone that claims they worked really hard in that kernel without crediting Linus and leaving a donation link to his family or favourite charitable causes. Anyone that says I've reworked the UI without giving credits to The Astonishing Tribe for the original Android concepts which all UIs are based off...
Android is closed, that's why I question this 'community'.
I am not proud to be a member of this 'community'...right now.
Ps. Cyanogenmob was originally a typo (using words like mobbed in my piece...Freudian slip on the keyboard rather than fat finger syndrome)...but I kept it in as I thought it was funny...the Cyogenmob should replace team douche IMHO!
Pps. Originally posted in Android Dev general but moved here as its Nexus dev themed!

im proud of myself for actually completing this reading haha. interesting read though.

cheddie said:
im proud of myself for actually completing this reading haha. interesting read though.
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Im more proud of you for successfully quoting the entire thing...I might submit it for my dissertation next year

HazzBazz said:
Im more proud of you for successfully quoting the entire thing...I might submit it for my dissertation next year
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hahah thanks for bringing that to my attention. had to edit it lol

To be fair I posted the god darn epic rant/essay/post...my bad !

HazzBazz said:
To be fair I posted the god darn epic rant/essay/post...my bad !
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No, I posted it! I worked long and hard last week to write it out. I am accepting donations to cover my time spent though.

All this happens because altruism is evil in the sense that it is a lie. Altruists demand payment too, in the form of recognition, appreciation, respect, reputation, and all these similar thirst for prestige.
In NOT giving recognition to comrades In arms who share a common need for prestige, it is theft among kin, robbing prestige.
Prestige is indeed a rotten currency.
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App

Touche...topical. Doesn't really do anything against my points, I am saying kingklick is guilty among many but they are appeased because they haven't got flames burning them. I do believe that kingklick should always give credit where due.

caysman said:
All this happens because altruism is evil in the sense that it is a lie. Altruists demand payment too, in the form of recognition, appreciation, respect, reputation, and all these similar thirst for prestige.
In NOT giving recognition to comrades In arms who share a common need for prestige, it is theft among kin, robbing prestige.
Prestige is indeed a rotten currency.
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App
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Good point...the fact is cyanogenmod wouldn't be as big with as many great ethusiastic devs without the praise it got...but is that a fair compromise for contributions...

I really think that the issue is the same as black droid. The Problem isn't that king copied the rom and redistributed it. The problem is that he did so claiming that it was his work based off of CM. When in reality he downloaded a a finished copy of CM, compiled by the CM team, and then changed a few lines the build.prop, renamed it and asked for donations. I personally can't see how that is helping the community at all. I really don't care about King one way or the other but I do think that the people who do the work should get credit for it. They spend countless hours writing code for us to have for FREE. Code you yourself says is better than what google puts out. They do this in their spare time and ask for nothing but recognition. You think that is wrong? I am amazed by this. Really I am.

HazzBazz said:
Good point...the fact is cyanogenmod wouldn't be as big with as many great ethusiastic devs without the praise it got...but is that a fair compromise for contributions...
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Don't misunderstand me. Payment is due, for sure, and payment makes our world go round, but I do wish it were not in the form of mousy prestige, rotten evil currency that it is. Money is a much better choice, but prestige seekers pretend to loathe $ probably because $ is less ambiguous.
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App

They do this in their spare time and ask for nothing but recognition. You think that is wrong? I am amazed by this. Really I am.
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But they do not explicitly ask for recognition do they? Even the great cyanogen does not do that, because once they impose recognition expressly as a mode of payment you would recognize that their asking for your adulation and love would seen a more demanding payment than asking for cash.
And also the inconvenience of the prestige seekers being more easily mistaken for all the money grabbing corporations which they demonize.
I'd make it clear that I have not wanted anything other than cyanogen's roms during my g1 days, and adulation I'd gladly pay, plus I have donated in money.
These guys made android exciting and formed PART of the inspiration for the paid android developers. It is unfortunate that the society's misconception of altruism as ' good' destroyed a lot of the language required to denounce it as the evil it actually is.
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App

Gr8gorilla said:
I really think that the issue is the same as black droid. The Problem isn't that king copied the rom and redistributed it. The problem is that he did so claiming that it was his work based off of CM. When in reality he downloaded a a finished copy of CM, compiled by the CM team, and then changed a few lines the build.prop, renamed it and asked for donations. I personally can't see how that is helping the community at all. I really don't care about King one way or the other but I do think that the people who do the work should get credit for it. They spend countless hours writing code for us to have for FREE. Code you yourself says is better than what google puts out. They do this in their spare time and ask for nothing but recognition. You think that is wrong? I am amazed by this. Really I am.
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it was actually jubehs rom he did that with.....
@OP, Omitting credit and stealing are completely different things. kk downloaded jubehs rom and changed 5-10 files and claimed it as his own. when confronted with this, kk said he compiled it himself even though the evidence overwhelmingly pointed at the other direction. He claimed to have built it from asop, when all he did was take someones rom and change a few files. if he said he "cooked" the rom from another (even without saying who) he would have been ok. But he continued to lie after he was caught which is probably why the ban hammer was dropped.
Most of this plus the damning evidence is located in the g1 section.
Also, android does not follow the GNU licensing, it follows apache, and by default, the devs who release their material here are also released under apache. Apache allows people to see the source so they can better understand it to develop, but people who use the source to develop something from it are not required to open source their works. they are also allow to put their own terms which would include giving proper credit.
AFAIK xda mods actually work together to decide on what to do with offenders. i know thats what they did for the wrecking crew (though some mods were less fair than others -_- )
PS: i havent used cyanogen mod since like 3.6.8 before the C&D lol

The sad fact is, it takes money to live in the world today. A lot of these programmers make good money 9-5 at their day jobs. The average computer engineer spends about 100,000 dollars going to college then makes about 60-70k per year after. This is working on a salary basis probably putting 40-60 hours per week. After that they spend another 20+ writing code for us because they like to. I can completely understand the devs wanting someone who copied and renamed their work to be banned.
That would be like you taking Johnny Cash's Ring of Fire, Calling it Circle of Fire and trying to sell it as your own. You would get sued, etc. Come on people how can you defend this guy, come on really?

Tl,dr the OP.
flybyme said:
Omitting credit and stealing are completely different things. kk downloaded jubehs rom and changed 5-10 files and claimed it as his own. when confronted with this, kk said he compiled it himself even though the evidence overwhelmingly pointed at the other direction. He claimed to have built it from asop, when all he did was take someones rom and change a few files. if he said he "cooked" the rom from another (even without saying who) he would have been ok. But he continued to lie after he was caught which is probably why the ban hammer was dropped.
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If this is true, he got what he deserved. I had a similar thing happen when I wrote a script for the iphone which gets about 75-100 downloads a day. Someone from a forum put their name on it, posted it saying they were up all night writing it and put a donation link at the bottom of their post.
When confronted, they lied and said it didn't work so they rewrote it, but a simple comparison showed the only changes made was to echo commands which displayed the author's name and some text about how to run it. They also had no clue how it worked and gave bad advice about how to use it, and there were a lot of people on that forum using it, having problems and asking questions.
I didn't really care, and I never got a penny for my work, but it forced me to think about it, and what I came up with was: what use is there in having that kind of thing around? They aren't contributing or advancing ideas, they're confusing them and possibly screwing things up.
The douche that stole my script went from "moderator" to "supermoderator" at that site. If that was your site, why would you even want to keep him around? I'm not a banhammer kinda guy, but there's no upside to allowing things like that to continue.

Im no developer, but i do see both sides of the story. But I mean this is no way to act.
[email protected] please tell your teamdouche to grow up. We all know it was someone in it that just made that name
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kingklick92
whoever made that account with MY name haha ur f****g retarded, Ill see you in court. You distribuuted MY name
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kingklick92
whether you were in the right or not.
I think credit should just be given when you use someones work just like you would want the same for your work.
Delete if not acceptable.

Oh for ****'s sake.
OP, you're being a white-knighting ninny. KK got what he deserved: "open-source" doesn't mean an eradication of common courtesy--and crediting is common courtesy. You're trying to weasel around "blah blah why don't we credit HTC and Google" which is sheer, utter, retarded straw man. We know who developed Android by implication unless you live under a rock. Not so with specific individual community contributions.
Besides, what did KK even do? All I saw in the N1 development section from him was ROMs based off other people's work slightly modified, or rubbish that never worked like his attempt to port Blur. I say good riddance. The fact that he managed to scam donations off people hardly helps his case. I'd sooner donate to the source/original contributors, not such a juvenile, plagiarizing, useless waste of oxygen.

HD2 Services On Craigslist

Browsing through Craigslist for an HD2 I came across multiple posts of people that are offering to upgrade the HD2 to winmo 6.5.x or Android for a fee of anywhere from $30-$60 dollars. I don't think it's right for people to be making a profit from something that they did not create. I highly doubt that they are taking part of the fee that they charge and donating it to the developers for their work. I've been flagging their posts in hopes that they get removed and will post information as to how to do install Androids themselves for free. I don't know if it's appropriate to ask you to do the same in your local cities and encourage the public to donate to the developers themselves instead of paying the $30-$60 dollars to someone that has done nothing to earn them except for ripping off the work of someone else. If I was a chef and stayed up for countless hours, missed family time and what not and found out that someone was making money off my work, i'd be livid. Just wanted to make you guys aware of a situation that is unacceptable.

I don't personally feel that by offering to set someones phone up with all the bells and whistles for a fee is wrong.
If a person doesn't feel like reading up and spending time learning how to setup their phone and wants to pay someone to do it for them that is there choice.
Saying that the person setting the phone up for them isn't right because they are collecting a fee to set up "open source" and freely distributed software onto there phone to save someone who is busy and doesn't have the time to spend hours reading on this forum to accomplish this is just silly.
Yeah all us phone junkies who don't have anything else better to do then sit on XDA and read and learn about our (hobby) for hours on end may seem normal to you and I but a HUGE portion of people do not have the time or wish to waste time on this when they can pay someone to have a tricked out phone to show off at the office.
And beyond that..the economy is in the toilet. People are trying to make a buck any possible way they can to feed themselves.
I have been buying HD2's when I see them cheap on craigslist and bringing them home, tricking them out and then reselling them for $100 to $150 profit for awhile now.
it has kicked in some extra income nicely helping buy kids school cloths, wife a nice dinner, etc etc
Just my two cents.
18.4009

marduk79 said:
Browsing through Craigslist for an HD2 I came across multiple posts of people that are offering to upgrade the HD2 to winmo 6.5.x or Android for a fee of anywhere from $30-$60 dollars. I don't think it's right for people to be making a profit from something that they did not create. I highly doubt that they are taking part of the fee that they charge and donating it to the developers for their work. I've been flagging their posts in hopes that they get removed and will post information as to how to do install Androids themselves for free. I don't know if it's appropriate to ask you to do the same in your local cities and encourage the public to donate to the developers themselves instead of paying the $30-$60 dollars to someone that has done nothing to earn them except for ripping off the work of someone else. If I was a chef and stayed up for countless hours, missed family time and what not and found out that someone was making money off my work, i'd be livid. Just wanted to make you guys aware of a situation that is unacceptable.
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+1... Unless these guys are giving donations to the chefs. These guys are also a lot here in Florida. That's why I also give an ad offering a FREE help in putting Android on their HD2.

Very much not trying to start a flame war here because I believe people have the right to do as they please...
But you must have some serious time on your hands to post on craigslist for free services. I need to reinstall my notebook, would you knock that out for me?
Just giving you a hard time.
But on the other issue you brought up. I personally donate to chefs who are elite and really drive some innovation with fixing issues, be it on the vibrant, HD2, nexus, etc. I own and follow six different phones and follow the serious chefs for those products. and kick into the beer fund from time to time. Again just like some who spend there time fixing up a phone for someone who doesn't feel like learning it themselves is really no different then people grabbing roms from here and throwing it on their phones. they technically (could) read, learn and create roms for there own personal use but they rather have someone who is a little smarter do it for them and if they are feeling generous they may kick in a couple bucks as a thank you.
People "don't" have to pay to get their phone tricked out but if they dont feel like spending the time learning it then hell....why not make a buck doing it for them.
18.4009

If we lived in a perfect world sure it would be great if they gave part of the profit to the original devs, but we dont and honestly if it get more people into Android is that a bad thing? Most noobs cant even figure out how to put widgets on their screen(had to help a lady do that) so there is no way they can do it themselves even if to us its easy so why not make them happy and the geek can make a little cash. But I agree donating a little to the devs would be the nice thing to do.

All of you have some very valid points. I just found it frustrating that the dev's would see no money from their own product. At the very least what can happen is that the dev's get introduced to other groups of people who in turn may come here, learn to flash their own rom and eventually donate.

CL service providers
I agree with both perspectives on this issue.
a. Yes, there are sereral ppl providing such services
b. Yes, there are several students openly stating they learned how to do this and will do this for you for pizza money (Like $10-$15, so much for big business ideas)
c. Yes, the ppl doing this should donate to devs periodically.
d. Yes, there are several youtube videos out there showing step by step instructions on how to do the upgrades.
e. Yes, several so called craigslist experts end up bricking customer's phones, leave with buggy setups, incorrect radios, robotic voices :-D
I think its best for devs to continue their hard work for the community that appreciates and benefits from their work is far larger than the select few who go K2. The donations will continue to pour in as the development reaches to immaculate full-featured build solutions. At which point, the devs could consider options for official sales of their roms and android builds.

[Off Topic] Autism Awareness Month

In honor of Autism Awareness month I wanted to share this. I know it's off topic but I truly feel it's important. Thanks in advance for giving me a few minutes of your time.
By now most of you are familiar with my personal quest to spread Autism Awareness from using my midNIGHT ROM or reading my Lost and Tired blog. For anyone not familiar with me or my mission I'll briefly share my story. I'm the father to 3 Autistic boys. Emmett is 2 1/2 years old. Elliott is 5 years old and Gavin is 11 years old. Life on the very best of days is a struggle for survival. My kids are AMAZING and I love them more then anything in the world.
The problem is that world is not always understanding. In fact it can be very cruel. The things I have heard people say about my kids or kids like them is disgusting and ignorant. Families like mine are very often judged harshly and unfairly by people unaware of what's on. There have been several occasions my kids have been referred to as "retards" by people in my own neighborhood. My kids may not understand what they mean, but I do. I can't explain the restraint I must show in order to not draw attention to what was being said. It literally breaks me to hear things like that.
My mission is to spread Autism Awareness to anyone willing to have an open mind and open heart. I want people to understand what life is like for my family and families like mine. My kids are EXTREMELY intelligent as are most if not ALL Autistic kids. They struggle in the area of social interaction and tend to have MAJOR sensory issues. Imagine if you couldn't help but hear EVERY SINGLE sound around you. Ticking clocks, buzzing lights, the whirling of the ceiling fan and even people breathing. When I say "hear" I mean these sounds are deafening and overwhelming as they have little or no ability to filter these things out. Did you know that's the most common reason Autistic kids to have meltdowns? They take in the ENTIRE world through all of their senses at one time and it is COMPLETELY overwhelming to these children. That is why they meltdown not because they are "brats" as many people incorrectly assume.
The way I see it is if people are more "Aware" of what's going on then maybe they can show understanding, support and compassion instead of cruelty, ridicule and judgement. I share my story as honestly as I do because I want people to be able to emotionally connect on some level. That's when Autism Awareness takes root and grows naturally.
I wanted to take a moment and ask everyone to help me spread Autism Awareness. April is Autism Awareness month. I ask that you show the same support for other families like mine that you do for me. Most of us have become isolated because no one understands. If you know anyone like that please reach out to them. Teach your kids to show compassion at an early age. You have no idea the positive impact you can have. I can honestly tell you that there have been some pretty dark moments for recently. I found strength in the kind words from people in this community. Please share my blog so others can become aware as well. Do what you can to remind people this is Autism Awareness month.
I want to thank you all for the making a difference in my life and helping to make the world a more understanding and compassionate place for my kids and all special needs kids and their families. I'm proud to be a member of this community and I look forward to working with all of you in the future. I would also be happy to answer any Autism related questions you may have as well.
If anyone would like to show support for Autism Awareness Month Johnny Bravo and I put together a banner. It's not branded with midNIGHT ROM or anything like that but it does link directly to my blog. It's not about a ROM it's about Autism Awareness. Please feel free to use and share it. I have attached the code.
Thank you for listening and thank you for support....

High five
good work
Keep at it eventually the whole world will understand
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA Premium App

Rob you are an Inspiration. I look forward to reading your blogs. You have taught me a lot about autism. I wish there were more people in this world like you. It would be a better place. I just wanted to let you know that my thoughts and prayers are with you and your wife and your 3 angels. Please continue to write on your blog and I promise I will do my part in helping others understand. I'm sorry for the dark moments you've been through but they made you who you are today.
Sent From My Evo Killer!!!

You guys should read his story about shopping at the super market before a winter storm. I have known many people who have had wrongs done against them and live in poverty due to chance or because of what others have done to them. One of these people left a real impression on me and I probably won't be able to retell his story very well but this is what I remember.
Last summer I had serve some community service hours to pay for a scholarship I got from my tribe. I chose to serve those hours at the John 3:16 mission in the poor side of town. While I was there I cleaned up the areas where the homeless people slept at night along with several permanent residents in the mission. These people were called "students" and they worked to get off of drugs and take classes in theology and various other things.
Over the course of working there I had the unique opportunity of meeting a particularly abused individual who was in their program, I'll refer to him as Jeff. Jeff seemed cheerful enough and always loved to joke around about everything. I came to find out he had been abused consistently since he was five years old (he is now in his 20's). One of the other residents liked to joke around about the shape of his head then he told us without even a hint of anger that it was because he had been hit in the back of head with a baseball bat by his father when he was five. He would later tell me many other stories about how he had fathered a child with a woman who didn't care about the child. The mother ran off with the child and wouldn't let him see her. He later came to find out his child had died (I didn't ask for any details, he was raining tears as he told me about all this).
Eventually he decided to move in with the only family he had left (deadbeat uncle) who also gave him crap and frequently took advantage of his position. Eventually the constant abuse was too much so he left the town his uncle lived in, on foot, and walked all the way to Tulsa, (over 100 miles). Eventually after wandering around he found John 3:16 and began the program. I am glad for him and hope that others like him will find refuge there.
Having said all this I do have one issue I can't ignore. Many people who ask you for money only do it to be lazy (Not you OP) and take advantage of nice people. Let me give you an example.
I was at a gas station a couple months ago and a guy, (who made sure I wasn't looking when he snuck up on me), walked up and asked me if I support African Americans, (oh boy.....), and told me he and his buddy were out of gas and had no money, then asked me for money. He was close enough to me to be able to knife me and he had snuck up in such a way that out of fear (not compassion). I gave him my money. I didn't feel good about giving it to him and felt I did more harm than good to that man by giving him that money. Jeff never asked me for anything.
I don't know if you guys believe in God or not but one thing that we are always taught is not to judge and to help people if they ask for help. At the same time, I think we aren't called on to necessarily give people in need what they want but what they need. In the case of the guy at the gas station, I would love to do something to help him get out of the cycle he's in but I don't know how. I think that if you can figure out a way to help a person even if you do something for them they don't necessarily want, you have done the right thing.
Too often people are quick to misjudge the poor and underprivileged. I have had everything given to me in my life and have never really had to worry about basic necessities or dealt with real pain but having known others who were afflicted with disease or just bad luck, I know that I should be thankful.
Next time you have a chance to really help someone in need don't let it slip. Many people need the help and I know if I were in their position I would appreciate it.
Sorry if this appears a little unrelated to autism.....

what i do is when im at a gas station and someone comes up and says they ran out of gas and need money for gas. i tell them ok pull your car up to the pump and ill give you some gas. the sad thing is most of them at that point just walk away. they donnt need money for gas. they wanted it for drugs. im not gonna support that. ill help someone out but i dont hand out money. you know what i mean.

I support this message. I'm not usually one to support public campaigns, but Rob (ptfdmedic) is one of the most honest and giving people I have met as an Android developer - and beyond. The cause is truly a worthy one - 1 in 110 children are now born with autism.
If anyone is interested in donating to charity, please consider the Autism Research Institute. As noted by charitynavigator.org, they are the most efficient and highly-rated autism-fighting charity out there, and they support medical science in searching for a cure.
EDIT: Temple Grandin recently spoke at my university. I didn't get a chance to see her, but she's working on methods of greatly increasing humane practices within the meat industry. Ms. Grandin holds a PhD in animal science, and has been listed as one of the 100 most influential people in the world in the "Heroes" category. She gave a talk during TED 2010, has been interviewed by many major media outlets, and a biographical film about her won five Primetime Emmys. Ms. Grandin is autistic.

I will often spend a day off in my wife's classroom (of 7 autistic children, elementary aged). Any one who says these kids are retarded doesn't have a clue.

You know there's no easy answer to that. Shortly after I published that story last month I had someone at xda contacted me. He told me that my story inspired him and he wanted to share this story. He said that he was at a gas station and he was approached by someone asking for help. Because he had just read my story he helped the man out and gave him some cash. He proceeded to tell me how good he felt doing that for someone. He then told that the next thing he knew the man he gave the money to hopped into a newer Jeep and drove off. Turns out he wasn't really homeless. The guys heart was in the right place and he had a sense of humor about it at least.
Sometimes people are dishonest and by sometimes I mean frequently. When I was approached last month at the grocery store I assumed he was looking for drug money as is often the case in my experience. It was only after I gave him a chance that I realized there was more at work here. Honestly I was cornered and wasn't physically able to get away. I turned out ok for me but it could have very easily been a dangerous situation.
Always put your personal safety first. Thats the only thing I would suggest to do 100% of the time. My point was that you just never know. Many of these people have a story and many of them are good people that the world failed. Some aren't. I wouldn't want my wife in a situation like that.
You guys are awesome. I appreciate the feedback and the stories. Even if you don't give them money all I was asking people to do was reserve judgement because you never know what's going on behind the scenes, if that makes sense. But ALWAYS stay safe and be smart.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA Premium App

k0nane said:
I support this message. I'm not usually one to support public campaigns, but Rob (ptfdmedic) is one of the most honest and giving people I have met as an Android developer - and beyond. The cause is truly a worthy one - 1 in 110 children are now born with autism.
If anyone is interested in donating to charity, please consider the Autism Research Institute. As noted by charitynavigator.org, they are the most efficient and highly-rated autism-fighting charity out there, and they support medical science in searching for a cure.
EDIT: Temple Grandin recently spoke at my university. I didn't get a chance to see her, but she's working on methods of greatly increasing humane practices within the meat industry. Ms. Grandin holds a PhD in animal science, and has been listed as one of the 100 most influential people in the world in the "Heroes" category. She gave a talk during TED 2010, has been interviewed by many major media outlets, and a biographical film about her won five Primetime Emmys. Ms. Grandin is autistic.
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You know it took me a while to work up to watching that movie because it's really hard for me to know how cruel people can be especially to people with disabilities. I do have to say that after watching it I walked away with a much better understanding of my kids. That was a great thing to bring up. K0nane you never fail to impress me.
I really appreciate how this community has taken to this. It's truly amazing to me that something so unrelated to the general topic here can bring so many people together.
Thanks it really means a lot and it really does help. At some point one of you will find your self in a position where Autism crosses your path. Maybe your at a store or out to eat and someone is struggling with their child. So many people would jump to conclusions about the parents or the child. Maybe with what you guys have learned you could just offer them a few words of support or just a smile. I promise you it makes a difference...a very profound one. Families like mine are not used to kindness like that. Often times a kind word or an understanding smile it all it takes to make it through.
Thanks everyone
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This effects 1/10 children ,that's 10% to many,I plan on donating to you this month,keep your head up,thoughts and bleesings to you and your family...
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ecooce said:
This effects 1/10 children ,that's 10% to many,I plan on donating to you this month,keep your head up,thoughts and bleesings to you and your family...
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA Premium App
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I really do appreciate it. Thank you..
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The actual statistics are 1/110 over all but 1/70 boys are diagnosed Autistic. That's a really scary number. If you follow the history of progression we're approaching a point where people that are considered to be "neurotypical" today will become a minority. I don't know if the human race has ever faced anything like that before.....
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My wife is also a school teacher. I see autisms affects weekly and it is devastating to the families, but its amazing how so many of them are up beat about everything. Really shows how staying a family and staying close can help conquer all of the odds.

I'm a Sophomore in High School and my brother has Autism. I'm older than him, so I've been around it for my entire life. While I can't say I understand it(but really, who can?), I know I have a better understanding than most people my age. So many times I've had to listen to people ask me what was wrong with my brother and call him slow. I immediately correct them and inform them that he has Autism. I always have to explain what it is and they still never get it.
There have been many times where I've stood up for my brother and any Autistic child at my school. I don't regret a single moment or instance of it.

i n00b teh pwns said:
I'm a Sophomore in High School and my brother has Autism. I'm older than him, so I've been around it for my entire life. While I can't say I understand it(but really, who can?), I know I have a better understanding than most people my age. So many times I've had to listen to people ask me what was wrong with my brother and call him slow. I immediately correct them and inform them that he has Autism. I always have to explain what it is and they still never get it.
There have been many times where I've stood up for my brother and any Autistic child at my school. I don't regret a single moment or instance of it.
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You are absolutely AMAZING. My middle child is actually the "older brother" to my oldest. He will most likely walk the same path you do. I never hear from siblings like you. Thank you so much for sharing that with me. You made my day.
Thank you.
Please check you PM

[Q] Finding a mobile phone focused hardware engineer?

Hello,
I'm not sure if this is the best place for this post, but it's the smartest, and largest android based community I know
I wanted to know where would be the best place for me to look for a hardware engineer. The caveat would be I need to find someone willing to talk a bit first before actually being paid. I need the help of one so I can make a more sound mock-up of what I'm doing and planning prices before talking to the VCs I have contacts for. That said, I COULD always find a way to basically hire a hardware engineer for consulting but I would really want to find a hardware engineer somewhat as passionate as I am about quality and creativity forward thinking. I already have a few software teams in mind to ask but will only do so once I have the funding.
So my question to you at XDA, where would I go about doing this? I should also mention the engineer I would look for would need to know about mobile phones. The thing is, I CAN start prototyping and the funding process using generic insides from a chinese phone BUT the end goal for me is custom hardware with the utmost care and quality put into it. So I would basically be lying to VCs (which let's be honest, everyone does) but then I would be delayed in having a hardware engineer still, and I'd rather have as much time to get the ball rolling as possible. Hell even if the hardware engineer could give advice on the future and pricing but says going with chinese insides until the money comes in would work.
I just have no idea where to find one, craigslist, ask around from friends, post at a certain website? Luckily what I will be doing for the next year shouldn't take the engineer more than a couple hours a week if even. So for quite a few months it should be pretty low key for them if they wanted to keep doing whatever job they were doing until I could afford to hire them full time. In about 6 months I want to start the prototyping to have early look units available for reviewers by November/December of this year.
Thank you for taking the time to read and help! If anyone is curious without saying too much I am looking towards making a pure android ubuntu edge quality phone, but most likely higher quality. The end goal is to use the main funding to make a phone directly aimed at the wants of you guys at XDA, but that's at least a year or so away sadly, and first things first.

iytrix said:
Hello,I'm not sure if this is the best place for this post, but it's the smartest, and largest android based community I know I wanted to know where would be the best place for me to look for a hardware engineer. The caveat would be I need to find someone willing to talk a bit first before actually being paid.
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You're in San Jose!! They grow on trees there! Just get some kid on the street and half their family will be HW engineers.
Anyway, this is the right place, but you are basically saying that they should "talk" to you, for free, for a while. So I doubt anyone would come forward. At least that's my experience in reading and seeing similar posts here in the last 2 years. Why would someone with the know how, risk spending months talking HW details, just to find him/herself abandoned?
You're project seem very noble and tasty, but we have to repackage it with some better incentives.

E:V:A said:
You're in San Jose!! They grow on trees there! Just get some kid on the street and half their family will be HW engineers..
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Hahahaha! So true! I remember when I first was looking to move out with a roommate almost EVERYONE was an "engineer" of some sort.
In hindsight I shouldn't have deleted the quote to respond. I think I remember all of what you said.
Yeah I understand that fully. This has just been an idea brewing in my head for about 3 or so years and my original plan was to befriend someone that was a hardware engineer and after building trust and enthusiasm start working on things. Me personally, I would do all of this for no profit on my part. Do I want it? Yes, but I only care about food, living, car payments, and getting this project rolling. I would like to work with people passionate enough about this to have a close mindset, but I realize that's not realistic, especially since it's my idea I'm asking people to believe in enough to work for it.
I think what I will probably have to do is, once I get enough stuff written up to present to an engineer to entice them on the project, also get some contract ready that promises them some share in things. The only thing is that could get very messy, and I would also need to add some more binding things so that they couldn't just leave on their own and take some profits, but I know I will need SOME way to entice people to want to work on this beyond just showing them the plan and idea.
I'm also trying to get in the more professional mindset. Making new company named emails and profiles so when I talk to people it's not just from a personal account. For XDA though I assumed people would take a senior member a lot more seriously than a brand new account though.
Are you from the Bay Area as well or do you just know of it? I find it weird that in this area people want to know investors and have their teams. I am in the opposite position where I have no team but have investors I am able to get a meeting with.
As a side note, a main reason why this turned from an idea to a thing that I HAD to do is I was getting fed up with all the phones that are coming out. There are many markets and categories missing from phones and I am hoping I can be the one to fill the gaps. I see tons of complaints online on various aspects of phones and so few companies seem to listen. Then once in a while a phone seems to be close to perfect and then the company doesn't ever come close again or removes wanted features. My only real fear is if the market moves too fast with some proprietary tech. But seeing as we've had bendable screens for...what 3 years now and the most we've gotten is slightly curved phones no one likes? I hope to change that, to get people more interested and caring for their phones.

Just figure out where they hang out online, and post...
You could post wherever idle HW engineers go to look for jobs too.
And there is no such thing as an "unemployed engineer".... They're (we're) consultants / contractors in between assignments, LOL.

mikereidis said:
Just figure out where they hang out online, and post...
You could post wherever idle HW engineers go to look for jobs too.
And there is no such thing as an "unemployed engineer".... They're (we're) consultants / contractors in between assignments, LOL.
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That's why I'm here to see if anyone knew where they went to hang out online haha. How would I go about that? Like a site or forums that's like a github for engineers instead of coders (although github is more pure code.....stack overflow I should say, but I think I make enough sense).
Haha! That seems very true. I'm sure I could find one to help me at least get the planning done but I would love to find one who wants to see this project through and through, and stay on for the full production of the phones, and the other ones I plan on making in the following years if this one succeeds.
Oh and, since from what you've said you SEEM to be a hardware engineer, how would I go about asking for the right kind? Could anyone with a degree or knowledge be able to easily adapt to making phones properly, or would I need to ask for one with a certain specialty? If so, what's the official term for the specialty?