Finally today i had enough... I filed a formal complaint with the FTC against motorola and all other mobile device manufacturers out lining the cause and effect of these companies selling us devices that we are made to be only users of rather than owners and administrators the devices we purchased. Nothing will change until we make some one step in and set the rules, i am encouraging everyone here on xda to do the same ... here is a link to the example complaint i filed and the link to the appropriate form to be filed
http://t0dbld.blogspot.com/2011/03/my-complaint-to-ftc-on-lock-bootloaders.html
https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/FTC_Wizard.aspx?Lang=en
Can I still do this as a Canadian Citizen or is it only for Americans?
mafiaboy01 said:
Can I still do this as a Canadian Citizen or is it only for Americans?
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could not hurt...
even though I don't own this device anymore I still filed a complaint. Rooting this device is much easier than the HTC Inspire. I hope they listen.
Good luck with this. You'll need it. No sarcasm intended.
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
t0dbld, I read your complaint and don't take my comment as negative but your complaint is full of grammatical errors. The case in point about Samsung keylogging has been debunked. But your example is always a possible scenario. AT&T data capping speeds for all phones but the iPhone is something we could mention as crippling.
I'm 100% in favor of unlocking our phones boot loader.
http://www.networkworld.com/newsletters/sec/2011/032811sec2.html <-- Samsung false alarm article.
Again, I don't mean any disrespect. I appreciate the developers who help the Android community, especially the Atrix.
Here was my submission:
Motorola makes and sells a device called the Motorola Atrix. They have, in the boot-loader, added a cryptographic signing check that prevents any software not created, and signed by Motorola from executing on the device. I believe this business practice to be monopolistic, and anti-consumer. While modifying the operating system voids any warranty on the device, as a consumer purchasing this device I should have the option to modify, or improve the device in any way I see fit.
In short: Motorola is exhibiting monopolistic business practices by locking the device down and disallowing third party operating system software to be installed.
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t0dbld said:
Finally today i had enough... I filed a formal complaint with the FTC against motorola and all other mobile device manufacturers out lining the cause and effect of these companies selling us devices that we are made to be only users of rather than owners and administrators the devices we purchased. Nothing will change until we make some one step in and set the rules, i am encouraging everyone here on xda to do the same ... here is a link to the example complaint i filed and the link to the appropriate form to be filed
http://t0dbld.blogspot.com/2011/03/my-complaint-to-ftc-on-lock-bootloaders.html
https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/FTC_Wizard.aspx?Lang=en
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I smell an april fools setup post.... if not.. everyone remember what day tomorrow is.
mafiaboy01 said:
Can I still do this as a Canadian Citizen or is it only for Americans?
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kdoodle said:
t0dbld, I read your complaint and don't take my comment as negative but your complaint is full of grammatical errors. The case in point about Samsung keylogging has been debunked. But your example is always a possible scenario. AT&T data capping speeds for all phones but the iPhone is something we could mention as crippling.
I'm 100% in favor of unlocking our phones boot loader.
http://www.networkworld.com/newsletters/sec/2011/032811sec2.html <-- Samsung false alarm article.
Again, I don't mean any disrespect. I appreciate the developers who help the Android community, especially the Atrix.
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I replied on the blog but i will reply here as will in case you did not read , that is a blog, i am not concenred with errors or anything there, also that was not my EXACT complaint as i did not want it to just get copy and pasted hence taking away from my formal complaint, while i appreciate your support and interest , i do think your time would have better used to file an actual complaint as per my request , rather than writing me a 2 page comment about mine either way good to have you on board, and make sure yours is well written
You should have let me proof that prior to submission. Other than it being way to long, over technical, and demonstrating piss poor English it did actually make some points! No hard feelings bro
The problem is that corporate America will not read our complaints, they simply don't care about anything but their bottom dollar. The bottom dollar is protected by the boot loader. New features? Go buy our new device!
The way I see it, we have two options.
A.) Petition our government to impose regulations and implement new laws to control these corporations and protect our consumer rights. But wait, doesn't our government make a lot of money off this industry in every aspect? How much tax did you pay when you bought your device? Ever look at the taxes on your phone bill? It's rape any way you cut it. It's not the 'sleeping with your girlfriend while she's passed out drunk' rape. It's more like the 'in the alley, behind a dumpster, while it's raining and dark getting raped by an HIV infected ex-con bum' rape. So my point is, the FTC is a government subsidiary and our taxes pay their salerys. We have established that they enjoy to rape us and we pay them to do it. Keep up the complaints, they just might change their outlook on life. For now, I would say option A can be scratched off the list.
B.) Start a revolution. Unite, gather our firearms, cordinate our forces, and take our country back!
Or someone smarter than I could just crack the damn boot loader... That's all i have for now, time to burn one
Submitted complaint
Moved to general as not android development
tical2k said:
I smell an april fools setup post.... if not.. everyone remember what day tomorrow is.
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ummm are you that dense this is not a joke
thedude420 said:
You should have let me proof that prior to submission. Other than it being way to long, over technical, and demonstrating piss poor English it did actually make some points! No hard feelings bro
The problem is that corporate America will not read our complaints, they simply don't care about anything but their bottom dollar. The bottom dollar is protected by the boot loader. New features? Go buy our new device!
The way I see it, we have two options.
A.) Petition our government to impose regulations and implement new laws to control these corporations and protect our consumer rights. But wait, doesn't our government make a lot of money off this industry in every aspect? How much tax did you pay when you bought your device? Ever look at the taxes on your phone bill? It's rape any way you cut it. It's not the 'sleeping with your girlfriend while she's passed out drunk' rape. It's more like the 'in the alley, behind a dumpster, while it's raining and dark getting raped by an HIV infected ex-con bum' rape. So my point is, the FTC is a government subsidiary and our taxes pay their salerys. We have established that they enjoy to rape us and we pay them to do it. Keep up the complaints, they just might change their outlook on life. For now, I would say option A can be scratched off the list.
B.) Start a revolution. Unite, gather our firearms, cordinate our forces, and take our country back!
Or someone smarter than I could just crack the damn boot loader... That's all i have for now, time to burn one
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OK nice ridiculous rant , for the last time that was not the EXACT complaint, secondly the FTC is the closest government agency that would have anything to do with this so what do you think we are doing, third please mr 420 hippy do something on your own than, to many times i have been given suggestions by pot smoking liberals with all the answers... yet never once seen them step up to the plate, while my self on the other hand has a long documented court history for the things i believed in and stood up for, i am not against any method of trying to draw attention and get results as this is not about the phone in my hand today but the future of the industry, so please try any method you wish but than do it and than give us your lesson about rape and pot smoke and alleys as the rest of us act with actions.... not long drawn out imaginative story's after "burning one" than dont make any real sense or have any relevance
No not dense, just real. Why would THIS make a difference, the community has been *****ing about bootloaders being locked for ages. Just throw another *****ing complaint in the pile, they don't care. Get a lawyer pack that can combat ATT and/or moto. Are you THAT dense to think you can make a difference. Dont get me wrong I like your spirit and you have an ethos, but not enough money to fix it. sorry face reality.
tical2k said:
No not dense, just real. Why would THIS make a difference, the community has been *****ing about bootloaders being locked for ages. Just throw another *****ing complaint in the pile, they don't care. Get a lawyer pack that can combat ATT and/or moto. Are you THAT dense to think you can make a difference. Dont get me wrong I like your spirit and you have an ethos, but not enough money to fix it. sorry face reality.
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your right.... give up and win, why vote either your vote doesnt count so who cares
t0dbld said:
your right.... give up and win, why vote either your vote doesnt count so who cares
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Nice rebuttle. And for the record I vote... right down the middle to maintain chaos, because politics are only good when they don't do anything unless they both parties agree on it. If you dont like the bootloader being locked why buy it? Also why not return it.
tical2k said:
Nice rebuttle. And for the record I vote... right down the middle to maintain chaos, because politics are only good when they don't do anything unless they both parties agree on it. If you dont like the bootloader being locked why buy it? Also why not return it.
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Your missing the point entirely , this is not about my motorola atrix, i could care less and mine will be unlocked sooner than later... this is about the fact that they have no right to make us users on devices that we own, we own it we deserve to have administrative rights as well as the option to load what ever software we want on it... period
Go away, troll
t0dbld said:
Your missing the point entirely , this is not about my motorola atrix, i could care less and mine will be unlocked sooner than later... this is about the fact that they have no right to make us users on devices that we own, we own it we deserve to have administrative rights as well as the option to load what ever software we want on it... period
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I end with a quote from Swimming with Sharks (a great kevin spacey movie btw):
"Look, I can appreciate this. I was young too, I felt just like you. Hated authority, hated all my bosses, thought they were full of ****. Look, it's like they say, if you're not a rebel by the age of 20, you got no heart, but if you haven't turned establishment by 30, you've got no brains. Because there are no story-book romances, no fairy-tale endings. So before you run out and change the world, ask yourself, "What do you really want?"
I submitted it.
Everyone please do this it doesn't take any time.
Related
Ok. I have this idea that could make millions of dollars if pitched correctly. This invention would work for the Kaiser and many other phone manufacterers but I'll just stick to WM platform for now. How would I be able to get developers to help out on it without the fear of it getting stolen?
I'm currently looking into getting a patent. Any recommendations other than that to safeguard my idea?
i guess you can never trust people in this kind of things. one thing you could do is to find some people that will sign some kind of contract and then make this contract official (find some lawyer to make this contract for you and approve it)
Thanks dude. I'm saving some money so I can hire a lawyer and get paperwork straight. This idea is genius and practical. I just needed the help of some genius developers too. Didn't want to spill the info but wanted some re-assurance.
I was thinking about something.
You hear people suing people over a song that they originally created. The funny thing is that the lawsuit comes up when the song becomes popular and rakes in millions. That's a smart thing. I mean if my idea ever got stolen. Anways any lawyers on this forum. Any idea of the cost of getting this into contract and patented?
if this idea of yours got anything to do with wm i guess you can find quality developers here on xda. just search and find developers that created software somehow related to your idea (same developing tools used, same environment...).
as for the costs, i got no idea and it depends on country you are in. but the costs can not exceed the profit if plans are realistic. so, all you need to know is how sure are you that the idea is good, possible to realize, has market and things like this. you also need to know that you must invest if you wan't to make a profit.
my advise to you is that you reconsider your idea and it's realism and then if you really believe in idea and yourself just go for it. the point is that you must be sure in what you are doing and do it in right time. as people say, time is money.
p.s.: i would suggest you to find some moderator and ask him to move this thread in some more relevant forum (some in general forums) as there you have more chance to get some reply
Here is what I would do first off -
I would describe the entire project and then mail it to myself registered mail and do NOT open the envelope. This will be your proof that you had the idea on this date as you describe it in the note.
Bill
whk said:
Here is what I would do first off -
I would describe the entire project and then mail it to myself registered mail and do NOT open the envelope. This will be your proof that you had the idea on this date as you describe it in the note.
Bill
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But this has absolutely no value in case you need to go to court.
What has is the date you file a patent application with a brief summary of the idea. The best is to to that ASAP. After that, you have about one year to formulate the exact patent text highlighting the exact key points that can apply for a patent (that are considered innovative) and that you want to protect. This will then have to be approved, and then (this can be months/years later) the patent is active and you can start suing potential copiers. BUT, the important point is that the date you filed the application on is the one that is valid in case someone else files another patent on the same subject, the one applying first wins. Note that nothing of it can be made public before this is done or everything is void.
It should cost a couple of thousand $ to get the application done, then once your patent is accepted the amount you need to pay depends on the number of countries you want to protect it in, and can reach $10k or more per country per year.
I have filed a patent application myself about 2 years ago, and that 1 year delay to file the definitive text was enough to convince me that the move was just useless. But my idea doesn't make millions anyway.
Personally for something that is software-based, as an individual, if the idea is really good and has a lot of potential I'd just file an application to have that first filing date in case really needed, but I guess I wouldn't go further. The problem is above - you need to choose the countries the idea is protected in. For software, if you don't go worldwide then all it would take to someone wanting to copy you would be to open an office in one of the countries you didn't list and start spreading his copy from there without you being able to do anything against it, but still having paid the patent a fair lot that is now lost...
Note that all of this is my experience and what I've learned from it - I'm no lawyer and you should still ask advice from one to take the right decisions. It's valid for international protection, if you're in the US and want to file a US only patent things are simpler and go faster from what I've heard.
kilrah said:
But this has absolutely no value in case you need to go to court...snip...
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Very little has any value in court.
I have spent $60,000.00 defending software written by me. It was obvious that the person violating the software had deeper pockets than we did and could simply tie us up in legal maneuvers forever - we simply had to quit prosecuting.
Bill
I have run my own company for 30 years. Now let me get this straight, you have an idea but want everyone else to develop it for you, so you can make millions. Does that sum it up?
People only steal and misappropriate when they feel (rightly/wrongly) that they are getting taken advantage of to line someone else's pockets.
"I deserve all the money because it was my idea," doesn't cut it. Make people feel they are helping themselves as much as you. Give them a fair share and they will work hard and be honest.
Now before you nay sayers start telling me I live in a fantasy world, as I said up front ,I've been doing it for thirty years.
Oh yeah, and keep a real good eye on the Ledgers.
gqstatus0685 said:
Thanks dude. I'm saving some money so I can hire a lawyer and get paperwork straight. This idea is genius and practical. I just needed the help of some genius developers too. Didn't want to spill the info but wanted some re-assurance.
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Hire someone.
Ok. I wasn't saying that I was going to get all the money. Obviosly If I hired some developers from this site I would state in contract what the terms would be and what everyone's share would be. I'd doubt a developer would work on a project blindly without knowing what they were going to get out of it. I just wanted information and once I get all this sorted out then I can speak on the project. It is for windows mobile and could be used by millions of people in different professions.
Hey everyone, being as this is a webcast about Android Development I'm not sure if it belongs here or in "General" so Mods please move it if you think it doesn't belong.
Anyway, lets get on the AT&T webcast tomorrow and bug them about bootloader access, you do have to register to participate but it's easy enough. It begins at 11AM PST and says it is an hour long. You need Microsoft Office Live Meeting (or you could call in) but it's free to download.
http://developer.att.com/developer/forward.jsp?passedItemId=5300338
I fully realize that this may be a futile action but in my experience persistence pays off and I'm not done bothering them quite yet, maybe 6 months down the road if they still aren't doing anything for us I'll give, but not yet!
Aside: I'm assuming that since this uses full featured meeting software there will be an opportunity to ask questions.
Awesome! Yes, please do! It worked for HSUPA, it is worth a shot.
...why would you bug AT&T about a Motorola device? Waste of effort.
Ririal said:
...why would you bug AT&T about a Motorola device? Waste of effort.
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Presenters:
Greg Wilson, Technology Evangelist, Motorola Mobility
Greg is a Technology Evangelist at Motorola Mobility, helping developers to create the best possible Android applications. Prior to joining Motorola, Greg was at Palm (and its various incarnations) doing similar work for the Palm OS developer community. Greg has been programming since the early days of the microcomputer, and has written software for programmable calculators, IBM mainframes, and an assortment of microprocessor architectures and microcomputer operating systems.
Peter van der Linden, Technology Evangelist, Motorola Mobility
Peter is the Android Technology Evangelist within the Developer Tools and Technical Services team at Motorola. He is not afraid of bugs, and has a collection of several prize bugs (software only).
They work for Motorola.
youareme7 said:
Hey everyone, being as this is a webcast about Android Development I'm not sure if it belongs here or in "General" so Mods please move it if you think it doesn't belong.
Anyway, lets get on the AT&T webcast tomorrow and bug them about bootloader access, you do have to register to participate but it's easy enough. It begins at 11AM PST and says it is an hour long. You need Microsoft Office Live Meeting (or you could call in) but it's free to download.
http://developer.att.com/developer/forward.jsp?passedItemId=5300338
I fully realize that this may be a futile action but in my experience persistence pays off and I'm not done bothering them quite yet, maybe 6 months down the road if they still aren't doing anything for us I'll give, but not yet!
Aside: I'm assuming that since this uses full featured meeting software there will be an opportunity to ask questions.
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Make sure to point out the number of people that want this.
http://www.groubal.com/motorola-lockedencrypted-bootloader-policy/
I'm not going to be able to watch and partcipate for this. I would like if someone could record this conference.
Thanks.
Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk
Ririal said:
...why would you bug AT&T about a Motorola device? Waste of effort.
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Because AT&T is behind 99pct of the problems with the Atrix:
- No Side Loading - AT&T
- Reduced Speeds - AT&T
- No Root Access - AT&T
Motorola made it pretty clear pre-release they wanted to open up the bootloader, AT&T obviously shut that down.
maybe they will give us the key for the bootloader, probably not, however its a good place to voice our concern
hate_Romania said:
maybe they will give us the key for the bootloader, probably not, however its a good place to voice our concern
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I doubt it. I asked in their MotoDev forum.
http://community.developer.motorola...trix-App-summit-on-March-29th-2011/td-p/12350
I'm not sure if it would actually do us any good, but I mean i guess it would be worth a try. Who is all gunna be the conference tomorrow??
I think (When it comes to their "bootloader solution") what they meant to say was "We do what we think is right when it comes to working with devs and customers, and will continue to do so in the future". And, what everyone took that to mean was "THEY ARE GONNA UNLOCK THE BOOTLOADER FOR US". I'm not saying I agree AT ALL, I just sometimes try to look at it from both sides.
I definitely want this thing unlocked, but I'm not counting on Moto to do too much about it. Not to say opinions shouldn't be voiced!
No one should be blaming ATT for the locked bootloader. Motorola's Droids (except for OG Droid) all have been locked down and they are on Verizon's network. Feel free to blame ATT for upload speeds, fake 4G, no sideloading, global warming, etc...
The Motorola employee that's going to be there is an application developer. He's unlikely to know anything about, much less have an answer for, anything about the bootloader. Harassing employees makes the entire community look bad and childish. If you have a REAL problem with it, other than bandwagon hatred for something a lot of you clearly don't understand, follow the appropriate channels. Lawyer up and file a formal complaint. Harassing them over the internet won't get you anywhere. If you REALLY believe that it's changed anything so far, I'm sorry you're that ignorant.
All the whining and harassing got nowhere, but when a thought out, well written petition was put into place and formal requests were made, look what happened: Motorola released their source. They didn't do it to "appease the masses", or to "shut us up." They did it because the proper channels were followed and they honored that. You have to understand that the amount of people who want the bootloader unlocked is a very, VERY small portion of their total userbase. It's entirely ignorant to claim that everyone wants this. Motorola isn't some evil overlord who wants their users to hate them. They're a business. Do you honestly think they'll care if a few hundred users out of the hundreds of thousands they have leave over the bootloader being locked? Unlikely. They've recognized the issue, and have announced they will have a solution for developers soon, which is more than they're even obligated to do in the first place. They don't owe you anything, having such an entitled attitude is hurtful to the entire process. Be patient.
I mean no disrespect to anyone in particular, so please, be respectful and mature of the situation. If you don't like it, that's fine, voice your opinion respectfully.
I second Ririal. Those two that are going to be presenting tomorrow are evangelists, and are going to be pretty in the dark about the situation.
I think the chat will be very interesting. Devs being there should be good for a prediction on where Moto plans to take the Atrix... wonder if we can ask questions in a round about way to see if they slip on how they unlock the bootloader to develop on the phone... lol yea I know wishful thinking this isn't a cartoon or movie lol but one can dream... I'll try and make the chat and see if I can record it for you guys
Sent from my MB860 using XDA Premium App
I have school at that time but can someone do me a favour and bug them about his.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=980047
Its common with half the people that unlocked the Atrix.
I have a meeting tomorrow and can't participate in the webcast.
However, would somebody _please_ tell them that there are companies out there who really want to develop applications for the webtop.
I have the go-ahead at work to port our primary Linux/X Windows application to the webtop on the Atrix, but cannot move forward so long as hacking/rooting the device is necessary. We can only develop using officially authorized channels.
Thanks in advance for anyone who can bring this up to them.
Ririal said:
The Motorola employee that's going to be there is an application developer. He's unlikely to know anything about, much less have an answer for, anything about the bootloader. Harassing employees makes the entire community look bad and childish. If you have a REAL problem with it, other than bandwagon hatred for something a lot of you clearly don't understand, follow the appropriate channels. Lawyer up and file a formal complaint. Harassing them over the internet won't get you anywhere. If you REALLY believe that it's changed anything so far, I'm sorry you're that ignorant.
All the whining and harassing got nowhere, but when a thought out, well written petition was put into place and formal requests were made, look what happened: Motorola released their source. They didn't do it to "appease the masses", or to "shut us up." They did it because the proper channels were followed and they honored that. You have to understand that the amount of people who want the bootloader unlocked is a very, VERY small portion of their total userbase. It's entirely ignorant to claim that everyone wants this. Motorola isn't some evil overlord who wants their users to hate them. They're a business. Do you honestly think they'll care if a few hundred users out of the hundreds of thousands they have leave over the bootloader being locked? Unlikely. They've recognized the issue, and have announced they will have a solution for developers soon, which is more than they're even obligated to do in the first place. They don't owe you anything, having such an entitled attitude is hurtful to the entire process. Be patient.
I mean no disrespect to anyone in particular, so please, be respectful and mature of the situation. If you don't like it, that's fine, voice your opinion respectfully.
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Agreed Ririal.
The petition I've started doesn't actually complain about anything, it asks for an announcement at the very least. Just something for Developers to be hopeful for. It also just requests an option for Developers not for everyone.
We are working very hard to follow the right channels on the topic and generate positive support to show Motorola that there is an enthusiastic user-base out there.
http://www.groubal.com/motorola-lockedencrypted-bootloader-policy/
ikenley said:
Agreed Ririal.
The petition I've started doesn't actually complain about anything, it asks for an announcement at the very least. Just something for Developers to be hopeful for. It also just requests an option for Developers not for everyone.
We are working very hard to follow the right channels on the topic and generate positive support to show Motorola that there is an enthusiastic user-base out there.
http://www.groubal.com/motorola-lockedencrypted-bootloader-policy/
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Absolutely. I saw your petition and have signed it. I'd love to see them, at the very least, give us an answer. We may not like it, but at least we'd have one instead of empty promises right now. No need to get upset about it, though
electronaut said:
I have a meeting tomorrow and can't participate in the webcast.
However, would somebody _please_ tell them that there are companies out there who really want to develop applications for the webtop.
I have the go-ahead at work to port our primary Linux/X Windows application to the webtop on the Atrix, but cannot move forward so long as hacking/rooting the device is necessary. We can only develop using officially authorized channels.
Thanks in advance for anyone who can bring this up to them.
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THIS THIS
Being able to create/load webtop apps would be an awesome feature that would turn the webtop from an interesting sideshow to a must-have.
I am hesitant to spend anything on the lapdock because I don't think it would be much more useful than the phone itself. If I could throw OpenOffice down on there or something using apt-get then I would totally buy it.
I understand that Moto might want to control the user experience, as nobody is going to be doing any high-powered computation or gaming on it, but third-party apps would be really neat.
Seems Treve was right about CIq FBI law enforcement involve so here's the link check for your self
http://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2011/dec/12/fbi-carrier-iq-files-used-law-enforcement-purposes/
Edit:UPDATE the a video of Sen. Franken Questioning FBI Director Mueller about Carrier IQ in the Senate Judiciary Committee
http://youtu.be/WiQcYKmU-yg
This is how you know there is nothing wrong with it. After all, the government has our best interests in mind and would never do anything that could potentially harm is.
Tin foil hat firmly affixed for this one...
Very interesting. Thanks
OstrichSak said:
This is how you know there is nothing wrong with it. After all, the government has our best interests in mind and would never do anything that could potentially harm is.
Tin foil hat firmly affixed for this one...
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Well if u say so, then again they are great liars in my opinion. They spray the skies and say its nothing harmful, u have kids and some new "disease" is born but they said its not harmful.
another little article on this
http://venturebeat.com/2011/12/12/carrier-iq-fbi/
This stuff is just creepy. 2011 is 1984. No joke.
edit: this is the Carrie IQ rebuttal
http://venturebeat.com/2011/12/13/carrier-iq-fbi-rebuttal/
And everyone thought I was crazy when I said CIQ sounded like part of the alphabet soup :-/
Sent From My EViLizED-iCS-EVo4G
.Elite_The_King. said:
Well if u say so, then again they are great liars in my opinion. They spray the skies and say its nothing harmful, u have kids and some new "disease" is born but they said its not harmful.
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You must not have sensed the sarcasm. I was laying it on pretty thick.
[sarcasm] THIS JUST IN...CarrierIQ useless when used in conjunction with aluminum hats. Basement dwellers rejoice!![sarcasm/]
My opinion:
If Carrier IQ doesn't have anything to hide, I would like to see the following information released from them:
a) Disclose EXACTLY what data they collect and display formatting and reports associated with them.
b) Disclose EXACTLY what improvements has come from the data collected.
c) Disclose EXACTLY what security measures they have been using to protect privacy
d) Disclose EXACTLY how many people have access from their side, and to what department they get delivered AND what security measures are being used in the process of delivery to the end user (companies that work with them)
e) Disclose EXACTLY WHY they don't have an Opt-Out option if they are really not doing anything shady.
f) Based on the YouTube video that proved that they are collecting more than anonymous information, they should prove beyond reasonable doubt to the public that their software doesn't collect / send this data to them.
This will not keep everyone (or myself) at peace but its a start in the right direction....
Going along the lines of what megabiteg said ..
I would add that - So, if 160+ million devices with CarrierIQ were set to communicate or "call home" all at once there would be no Denial of Service on whomever is collecting whatever.. /sarcasm
After all, at first it was said that no data was being transmitted, then it changed to no personal data was being transmitted, then the "blame game and finger pointing" began.. next week it will be no financial data is being transmitted.
So which is it?
The other question I have is for AV (AntiVirus/Security) vendors who make a lot of claims against Android and call it unsecured.. Why didn't your product (paid or free) catch and remove CarrierIQ as it was discovered months ago and by most "modern" standards is a Rootkit?
megabiteg said:
My opinion:
If Carrier IQ doesn't have anything to hide, I would like to see the following information released from them:
a) Disclose EXACTLY what data they collect and display formatting and reports associated with them.
b) Disclose EXACTLY what improvements has come from the data collected.
c) Disclose EXACTLY what security measures they have been using to protect privacy
d) Disclose EXACTLY how many people have access from their side, and to what department they get delivered AND what security measures are being used in the process of delivery to the end user (companies that work with them)
e) Disclose EXACTLY WHY they don't have an Opt-Out option if they are really not doing anything shady.
f) Based on the YouTube video that proved that they are collecting more than anonymous information, they should prove beyond reasonable doubt to the public that their software doesn't collect / send this data to them.
This will not keep everyone (or myself) at peace but its a start in the right direction....
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+1 on that man
OstrichSak said:
You must not have sensed the sarcasm. I was laying it on pretty thick.
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Okay I thought that the bottom line was like ur signature got it now I'm sorry man my bad
Jus read this earlier check it out what does this sound like to you elite
The Technology is Helping Repressive Regimes Spy
TrevE Supporter!
I think ciq is really just a front for the government to spy on citizens. No wonder why their statements are just bull****. I don't doubt it.
Support TrevE !!
infamousteeboy said:
Jus read this earlier check it out what does this sound like to you elite
The Technology is Helping Repressive Regimes Spy
TrevE Supporter!
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Ha I know what you mean. It is what it is you always have to protect your self especially from gov that sells your info for cash. I believe there is an app that shreds your text messages, using a third party app instead of the manufactures one to protect urself against ex.(tigerwoods) ex mistress, company, and etc, that u dont want them to find out. Always be one step ahead of what your intentions are.
Remember laws are not laws but simply codes and statues that "everybody" agreed upon. You should always defend your self.
I'm just saying.
Isn't all this irrelevant for those using custom ROMS?
lightiv said:
Isn't all this irrelevant for those using custom ROMS?
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Well thanks to Treve it is now but it wasn't before and I think the sense kernels and maybe some AOSP too out there right now aren't up to date with what treve recently discover so yup check it get his app then check to see if ur kernel is update or is it still sending that info man.
Some useful updates and information regarding the situation:
http://franken.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=1891
This was an important remark from the US Senator:
"I appreciate the responses I received, but I'm still very troubled by what's going on," said Sen. Franken. "People have a fundamental right to control their private information. After reading the companies' responses, I'm still concerned that this right is not being respected. The average user of any device equipped with Carrier IQ software has no way of knowing that this software is running, what information it is getting, and who it is giving it to-and that's a problem. It appears that Carrier IQ has been receiving the contents of a number of text messages-even though they had told the public that they did not. I'm also bothered by the software's ability to capture the contents of our online searches-even when users wish to encrypt them. So there are still many questions to be answered here and things that need to be fixed."
I hope the Senator keeps the strong track he's fighting, we should all support him!
megabiteg said:
Some useful updates and information regarding the situation:
http://franken.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=1891
This was an important remark from the US Senator:
"I appreciate the responses I received, but I'm still very troubled by what's going on," said Sen. Franken. "People have a fundamental right to control their private information. After reading the companies' responses, I'm still concerned that this right is not being respected. The average user of any device equipped with Carrier IQ software has no way of knowing that this software is running, what information it is getting, and who it is giving it to-and that's a problem. It appears that Carrier IQ has been receiving the contents of a number of text messages-even though they had told the public that they did not. I'm also bothered by the software's ability to capture the contents of our online searches-even when users wish to encrypt them. So there are still many questions to be answered here and things that need to be fixed."
I hope the Senator keeps the strong track he's fighting, we should all support him!
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Here's the a video of Sen. Franken Questioning FBI Director Mueller about Carrier IQ in the Senate Judiciary Committee
http://youtu.be/WiQcYKmU-yg
I dont think there is anything wrong with carrier IQ. Like if your doing nothing wrong you have nothing to be worried about* but with that being said, it is not right for our phone companies, service providers, CIQ, or even the FBI, to leave us in the dark like this. There really is so much in question and so many assumptions, I just dont see why they cant fill us in, and at least let us know what is going on while we sort out this whole mess...
Hello guys,
Recently Motorola canceled ICS update for Atrix, but i'm wondering: did they started the dev and left middle way, or did nothing at all? If they stopped middle way, we might be able to use they kernel (it's what we need right now), and that would be awesome.
Ofc, Motorola won't release them easily. But what if we ask? What if we make a campaign on social networks and Android websites, and make it really loud? I'm sure i saw this happening for other stuffs, so why not our phone?
My idea is pretty simple:
We setup a hotsite with a simple message and users just have to click on the button referent to his social network to share the campaign. On Twitter, we can mention Motorola's profile, to be sure they are hearing us.
I already have the template ready, and it looks kinda like this: http://takemymoneyhbo.com/tweetit.php
I also have a VPS with Nginx + microcache, PHP-FPM and APC ready to go, so it's able to handle a big spikes of traffic (Digg/Reddit effect). What i need right now is the domain and, ofc, the message to be posted on social networks and on the hotsite itself.
We also would need to think about a name for this campaign (the name of the domain). Like i said, server is ready, template is ready, we only need the messages and a domain, since i can't pay for that at the moment.
As an alternative, we could also use this idea to get JB officially, but i think most of us would install a custom ROM anyway.
List of suggested domains so far:
icanhasdrivers.com
icanhasics.com
retakemotoatrix.com
myphonecanhasICS.com
weonlyneedyourkernel.com
updatemymoto.com (the chosen one)
What do you guys think? Worth doing it? Anyone up to pay for the domain? I will setup a donation button, if anyone is up for paying a domain, just donate
EDIT: The name of the campaign will be Update My Moto! The message for the hotsite and how it looks, can be see here: http://i48.tinypic.com/51eb95.png
As soon as we get the domain, i will close this thread and create a official one for the campaign. Let's rock guys!
Obs: sorry for my English.
might work if you also include other way to file a complaint against moto like via BBB. Motorola might not care about us when we complain to them but moto might care about losing the BBB accreditation. So include other methods like that.
Deafcyclist said:
might work if you also include other way to file a complaint against moto like via BBB. Motorola might not care about us when we complain to them but moto might care about losing the BBB accreditation. So include other methods like that.
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You can count me in on making as much noise as we can on the matter.
I think it is worth trying. I doubt we would succeed. But worth trying anyway.
So all you need is a domain? No hosting account?
What about:
icanhasdrivers.com or icanhasics.com
upndwn4par said:
I think it is worth trying. I doubt we would succeed. But worth trying anyway.
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Why you doubt it will succeed? I can try to get it on Gizmodo and lots of other bug websites, since i myself own a big Ubuntu website at Brazil. I think we can make this get pretty big, and Motorola would end up listening.
upndwn4par said:
So all you need is a domain? No hosting account?
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Yes. We need to come up with a good name for the campaign and a good domain. I also need someone to pay for the domain, since with all the servers i already pay and other stuffs, i'm pretty much out of money haha
Oh, we also need a message that cause impact.
upndwn4par said:
What about:
icanhasdrivers.com or icanhasics.com
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Added to the suggestion list
Deafcyclist said:
might work if you also include other way to file a complaint against moto like via BBB. Motorola might not care about us when we complain to them but moto might care about losing the BBB accreditation. So include other methods like that.
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What is "BBB"? I'm sorry, don't think i know it. But as long as it have a share-able link, i'm able to add it.
julian_fern said:
Why you doubt it will succeed? I can try to get it on Gizmodo and lots of other bug websites, since i myself own a big Ubuntu website at Brazil. I think we can make this get pretty big, and Motorola would end up listening.
Yes. We need to come up with a good name for the campaign and a good domain. I also need someone to pay for the domain, since with all the servers i already pay and other stuffs, i'm pretty much out of money haha
Oh, we also need a message that cause impact.
Added to the suggestion list
What is "BBB"? I'm sorry, don't think i know it. But as long as it have a share-able link, i'm able to add it.
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"BBB" Stands for the Better Business Bureau. It's a consumer agency that takes complaints and helps direct it at the appropriate place. They work with the company and consumer to resolve the dispute. They cover businesses ranging from carpet cleaning to food to cell phone companies. Some companies tout their high rating with the BBB, like a report card, so they value it staying high.
How about retakemotoatrix.com or nomoremotofail.com
I kinda like the ring to "RetakeMotoAtrix"
Sent from my MB860 using xda premium
Lugaidster said:
How about retakemotoatrix.com or nomoremotofail.com
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we need to gather more moto users (photon, etc)
myphonecanhasICS
icanhasics.com --> the best so far
Vote me in. I have already tweeted with hashtag #motofail
Anything with "icanhas" it's too meme-ish to be taken seriously, IMO.
Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2
I doubt Motofail will care about all the noise.
http://www.change.org/petitions/motorola-mobility-update-my-phone
I'm sick and tired of these corporations/companies walking all over dedicated customers and getting away with it, so you can count me in as well. Even if we don't succeed, I'd be glad to get back at this lying, backstabbing company with some negative publicity.
I don't think it will work because big corporations are stupid. They look at us and think they have only pissed off a few thousand users. They forget that people like us tend to be tech support/advisers for our friends and family.
I agree with jhonnyx that we will need support from other device groups too. I know the Photon got screwed, but what other devices? It would be helpful to post in their forums as well. This should also not be limited to xda. There are many other forums as well. Maybe once we get a little more organized. This will have to be a huge effort to succeed.
This campaign will also have to be clean and catchy. Nothing related to motofail. Motorola will never draw attention or succumb to anything like this.
Why not motoupgwanted... That way it could be used for more then just us?
All you need is domain? Cost what $10 a year, why not set up donation button I'm sure you can get 20 of us to give .50 cents (cost est)
Sent from my MB860 using xda premium
I have already submitted the following post in the usual Atrix ICS thread but I thought it would be useful in this tread as well.
"Just wanted to provide another pointer as to why it is possible to take legal actions and possibly criminal prosecution, in countries where it applies, against Google/Motorola. Security fixes, rather the lack of, from GB 2.3.4 to JB 4.0.1. You want to remember the latest security flaw in Android about a crafted web page that can wipe Android phones without a possibility to recover the lost data.
Why Atrix users should be left without the security fixes and how Google will propose a solution?"
Furthermore to what I have said in above I am certain that only a legal campaign will solve this problem, anything else would be waste of energy.
We already have enough valid technical reasons to argue the case but we need members with legal expertise in matters like this. In my opinion launching two legal precedents, one in Europe and the other in USA, would get us to a proper settlement. Please remember this is not really about just Atrix whereas about two corporates that ripped off consumers without a shame in bright day light.
Hey Motorola, just give us the drivers we want, and step away from the Atrix!
Seriously, is that too much to ask?
Count me in.
However, I also don't believe Moto will deliver. But if we can make some bad publicity to them, let's do it. They deserve it.
And...
Fishmoose said:
Anything with "icanhas" it's too meme-ish to be taken seriously, IMO.
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... I agree.
Im in and also i wrote in the photon forum.
Sent from my MB860 using xda app-developers app
source link
For those that don't want to access the above link, here is the text:
AT&T is on the receiving end of a $10 million payout each year from the CIA in exchange for providing phone records to help with overseas counterterrorism investigations. It’s a program that the wireless provider voluntarily agrees to meaning there’s no court order involved according to a report from the New York Times.
The publication claims the CIA supplies AT&T with the phone numbers of suspected terrorists. From here, the wireless provider is able to comb their database for call records attached to a given number. These records include valuable information such as the length and date of phone calls. In the event that a call is placed to or from an American number and involved an international caller, the CIA reportedly asks AT&T to mask the identity of the US-based number for legal reasons.
In case you were wondering, the arrangement is said to be different from the tactics the NSA uses to collect phone records although they likely duplicate some of their programs. It appears to have been started sometime before 2010, was put on hold at some point then reinitiated once again.
Naturally, neither AT&T nor the CIA would confirm the existence of the partnership. An anonymous intelligence official, however, believes it makes sense for such a program to be in place. The source said the need to act without delay is often best met when the CIA has developed its own capabilities to lawfully acquire necessary foreign intelligence information.
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lmike6453 said:
source link
For those that don't want to access the above link, here is the text:
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At least they get money for it when we all know CIA has other means of getting those data logs anyways...
Not a surprising tactic. Seriously if a terrorist is still conducting activities on a cellular network... just turn yourself in now.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using xda app-developers app
OH NO!!!!!! NOW THEY KNOW ABOUT THE TIME I TOLD MY FRIEND I WAS TAKING A DUMP!!!!!!
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Anthonok said:
OH NO!!!!!! NOW THEY KNOW ABOUT THE TIME I TOLD MY FRIEND I WAS TAKING A DUMP!!!!!!
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That's not the sort of information they can glean from metadata (unless your friend specializes in counseling people on that topic).
Gary02468 said:
That's not the sort of information they can glean from metadata (unless your friend specializes in counseling people on that topic).
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I know. But my point is I don't care. Also I'm just really tired of hearing people complain about losing their privacy and it being stolen from them...meanwhile they sit there and use Facebook and other social media...haha
Anthonok said:
I know. But my point is I don't care.
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But people who want to protect their own privacy don't care that you don't care. People who take seriously the 4th Amendment of the US Constitution, and its requirement to have probable cause and a detailed warrant before conducting a search, also don't care that you don't care. People who have studied history carefully enough to know what abuses arise in the absence of these protections don't care that you don't care.
Also I'm just really tired of hearing people complain about losing their privacy and it being stolen from them...meanwhile they sit there and use Facebook and other social media...
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There's no inconsistency between willingly revealing some information--whether to your friends or to the public--while still wanting NOT to reveal OTHER information publicly.
Gary02468 said:
But people who want to protect their own privacy don't care that you don't care. People who take seriously the 4th Amendment of the US Constitution, and its requirement to have probable cause and a detailed warrant before conducting a search, also don't care that you don't care. People who have studied history carefully enough to know what abuses arise in the absence of these protections don't care that you don't care.
There's no inconsistency between willingly revealing some information--whether to your friends or to the public--while still wanting NOT to reveal OTHER information publicly.
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And I don't care that they don't care. People act like this kind of thing is new. Its been around forever. Anyone who thinks its something that's never happened in the past is blind. I understand the whole privacy thing. I get it. But I look at it like this, I'm not doing anything wrong so I don't care who sees what I do or say or who I call. I would rather my every move be monitored as long as it has the possibility of some terrorist being caught preemptively.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Anthonok said:
People act like this kind of thing is new. Its been around forever.
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False. Instead of addressing what people are actually saying, you're pretending that they're saying something they never did.
Warrantless searching isn't new. It's just illegal, immoral, and more dangerous that what it supposedly protects us from.
However, the scale on which spying is being conducted now--the sheer amount of data being collected from hundreds of millions of citizens--is indeed unprecedented. We know that simply because the technology to collect and store that much data did not exist until fairly recently.
I'm not doing anything wrong so I don't care who sees what I do or say or who I call.
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Anyone who says that there's no need for privacy unless you're doing something "wrong" is woefully ignorant not only of history, but of basic human interaction.
Gary02468 said:
False. Instead of addressing what people are actually saying, you're pretending that they're saying something they never did.
Warrantless searching isn't new. It's just illegal, immoral, and more dangerous that what it supposedly protects us from.
However, the scale on which spying is being conducted now--the sheer amount of data being collected from hundreds of millions of citizens--is indeed unprecedented. We know that simply because the technology to collect and store that much data did not exist until fairly recently.
Anyone who says that there's no need for privacy unless you're doing something "wrong" is woefully ignorant not only of history, but of basic human interaction.
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Yeah. Sure. Cool.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Why is this useless, off-topic thread still open!?
khaytsus said:
Why is this useless, off-topic thread still open!?
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(1) It pertains to the AT&T Note 3. (It also pertains to other AT&T phones, but so do many of the AT&T topics discussed here.)
(2) The thread was already dormant until you bumped it just now.
This sort of stuff surely has to have been happening for a while, it's not like they get anything useful out of civilians anyways.
The only terrorists they will catch are the ones that the CIA is training funding and helping conduct and carry out their plan. The CIA has been running alqueda since the start of it. The name it self was a US government database that bin Laden liked and used the name. Every major dictator in history the US has put in power funded and then took them out. It's Hegelian Dialectic=Problem – Reaction – Solution.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using xda app-developers app
AT&T's going to cough up whatever they're subpoenaed to. Bully for them for extracting a fee for it.
BarryH_GEG said:
AT&T's going to cough up whatever they're subpoenaed to. Bully for them for extracting a fee for it.
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You're just making that up. The people involved have acknowledged that there is no subpoena, and that acknowledgement has been widely reported.
Gary02468 said:
You're just making that up. The people involved have acknowledged that there is no subpoena, and that acknowledgement has been widely reported.
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So? With all that's come to light post-Snowden does this surprise you? The other carriers could be doing something similar and it's just not been made known yet. Post-9/11 the world's a sinister place with both the good guys and bad guys trying to outmaneuver each other with us innocents caught in the middle. If this freaks people out move to another carrier. I guess I operate under the naive assumption that my data being scoured isn't a big deal because I'm not doing anything wrong. My life in data-form would probably be considered pretty boring by those reading it.
Why does everyone think that it's Ok just because they are not doing anything wrong? The founding fathers put the constitution together to protect us from things like this. Lately people are so for giving up their rights all in the name of keeping them "safe" Ben Franklin said " those who will give up liberty for security shall have neither". There are a lot of people who need to wake up to the tyranny that is going on around them before it's to late. The only time people start to care is when it effects them by that time they are a day late and a dollar short. This is a tyrannical regimen we are dealing with and it will only get worse until we stop allowing it to continue just because "I'm not doing anything wrong so why should I care". We either all need to stand up for our rights or we will all fall together.
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boxerlover02 said:
Ben Franklin said " those who will give up liberty for security shall have neither".
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Here's a hint to tell if you're totally off topic for a tech forum - when your posts contain quotes from dead presidents. Fascinating point of view; for Reddit.
I agree I went off topic. But it burns me up that everyone always says "well I have nothing to hide so I don't care". Or there is nothing we can do about it so why should I care... Just think if the men who fought for this country to become a country had that same attitude. There would be no USA. Again sorry for the rant, but we need to hang together or fall separate.
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