Related
Okay, before everyone starts flaming...I know that there are probably hundreds of thread in the Dream General section suggesting a support section or a "Support thread" but they have been incredibly unsuccessful and members are constantly reporting and starting new threads on their problems in Dream Android Development and in General. Isn't the whole point of GENERAL suppose to be GENERAL? And not a support area?
This is why I'm proposing that we create an entire new area for people to get help and for people to post their problems and give solutions. If you take a look at the amount of locked threads in development and the amount of threads in Dream General pertaining to the numerous amount of problems that people are having, you will understand. I understand that there is in fact a brick thread inside Dream Development, but people don't care. They just post it in random places and mods have to constantly remind people to post in the right place and to SEARCH! With this proposal, I believe that if a support section is created, people will be more likely to search in THERE because it's a special place set aside for just that, SUPPORT.
Mods please take this into consideration and don't lock this thread. How many of you think that we should have a support section and not clutter Dream General and Dream Development with hundreds of two post threads talking about bricks and eventually them getting locked or moved to the trash within seconds.
Thanks for reading this. Comment in the posts below
Thanks to Milestone for a list of good reasons why we should have a support section! thanks milestone!
milestone.it said:
i feel that a support section would be useful for many simple reasons
1) it would aid in the moderation task - most people can read the word "support" and realize to post in there. if they can't then don't get a g1!
2) it would allow for a few people who are interested in helping out other newbie users to correct their problems without everyone having to read them if they don't want to.
3) there can be a place to move wrongly posted requests to.
4) everyone knows where to post them to in the first place!
that was my £0.02p
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Everyone here with a few exceptions i'm sure are using a rooted phone. If you noticed, each thread that contains a ROM will also provide support for that ROM. Most of the problems are specific to each rom. So there would need to be a support thread for each ROM released in a seperate forum section, which already exists in the developer section. Also, each rom released is pretty much a beta and will always remain a beta because there is no standards to which these roms are created and no "end point" to the development, its always on going. And unique bugs and problems will always occure with each Rom. So it is a continual part of development to post, read about and repair those bugs and problems to make each Rom better. I don't think a support section needs to be created. I just think people need to be less lazy and use the search tools. Even bricked phones are being bricked by a specific rom...or SPL or what have u and again should fall under development since most bricked phones was because of a bad SPL or bug in a ROM . And if it is not specific to anything that has been created or released here...Tmobile DOES have their own support forums =)
Good point, but we're not T-Mobile and T-Mobile doesn't JUST carry the G1 now do they?
alritewhadeva said:
Good point, but we're not T-Mobile and T-Mobile doesn't JUST carry the G1 now do they?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You've a good point as well =). ...Yah, T-mobile mentioned something about them carrying the ION soon....so I guess "T-Mobile" can be replaced with "Your phone's manufacturer and/or carrier" hehehe
Did XDA not create forums for the Magic and the Ion and the Sapphire? Most of this development is geared towards the G1 for the most part...which pretty much is T-Mobile....Now if they just made a Forum for "ANDROID DEVELOPMENT" that encomposses all the android phones...that may work out better. But the support would still end up in the specific rom forums... I dunno...to many roms and too many phones and too many carriers lol getting had to keep up
alritewhadeva said:
Good point, but we're not T-Mobile and T-Mobile doesn't JUST carry the G1 now do they?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, and T-Mobile won't be able to support the myriad of problems that come with rooted phones and custom ROMs anyway.
The sad fact (and why this idea has never really taken off) is that no matter what you do; stickies/wikis/locked threads/temp bans etc... there is always going to be a host of fng's that don't know any better and will continue to post out of context and out of laziness.
Hell, there's a couple people that straight up know better and will still post in the wrong section because "nobody's gonna be able to help me in the Dream forum, so I'm posting here anyway."
It would seem you can't change human nature, so you're forced to moderate. Or so I've decided.
i feel that a support section would be useful for many simple reasons
1) it would aid in the moderation task - most people can read the word "support" and realise to post in there. if they can't then don't get a g1!
2) it would allow for a few people who are interested in helping out other newbie users to correct their problems without everyone having to read them if they don't want to.
3) there can be a place to move wrongly posted requests to.
4) everyone knows where to post them to in the first place!
that was my £0.02p
tep065 said:
You've a good point as well =). ...Yah, T-mobile mentioned something about them carrying the ION soon....so I guess "T-Mobile" can be replaced with "Your phone's manufacturer and/or carrier" hehehe
Did XDA not create forums for the Magic and the Ion and the Sapphire? Most of this development is geared towards the G1 for the most part...which pretty much is T-Mobile....Now if they just made a Forum for "ANDROID DEVELOPMENT" that encomposses all the android phones...that may work out better. But the support would still end up in the specific rom forums... I dunno...to many roms and too many phones and too many carriers lol getting had to keep up
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah there's a forum for the Magic/Sapphire but the ION has not really been officially launched, but when it does I'm sure XDA will create another forum for it. I still think a support section would be a good idea. Most other forums have something like that, however this one does not. Just my opinion
milestone.it said:
i feel that a support section would be useful for many simple reasons
1) it would aid in the moderation task - most people can read the word "support" and realise to post in there. if they can't then don't get a g1!
2) it would allow for a few people who are interested in helping out other newbie users to correct their problems without everyone having to read them if they don't want to.
3) there can be a place to move wrongly posted requests to.
4) everyone knows where to post them to in the first place!
that was my £0.02p
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good list. Updated OP
So, I've been thinking about this a bit more... and drinking bombay/tonic and shots of patron, so take it with a grain of salt...hehe
Anyway, I actually think it could be useful at this point. Seeing all the troubleshooting threads in this forum, it could be useful to seperate truly general things with support related things.
The way I see it, at this moment:
Dream (26 Viewing)
Dream android development (237 Viewing)
Dream accessories (2 Viewing)
Dream themes and wallpapers (25 Viewing)
Dream applications and games (23 Viewing)
Obviously, development gets all the attention.
That's the main reason so many people go straight there to get a question answered.
However; a support thread probably wouldn't see any less visitors than the other 4 threads and certainly more than the accessories thread. I dare say, accessories could be merged with general and be replaced with support.
It wouldn't hurt to have a handful of stickies of current support issues and an entire thread dedicated to it. Maybe having a thread that floated to the top in development called support that tried to redirect people to a support forum might work well.
Anyway, just a thought. Back to the tequila...
milestone.it said:
i feel that a support section would be useful for many simple reasons
1) it would aid in the moderation task - most people can read the word "support" and realise to post in there. if they can't then don't get a g1!
2) it would allow for a few people who are interested in helping out other newbie users to correct their problems without everyone having to read them if they don't want to.
3) there can be a place to move wrongly posted requests to.
4) everyone knows where to post them to in the first place!
that was my £0.02p
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agreed =] I'm thankful for everyone commenting in this thread and keeping it alive. Come on guys, don't PRETEND you DON'T want a suppport section. Aren't all of you tired of the cluttered threads and the people telling you to sift through 300 page threads for answers? With this support section, finding an answer should be a breeze. I'm proposing we have sepeerate threads in the section for different ROMs and to post known problems and known solutions in the OPs. Let your opinions be heard! Going to go ahead and bump this up there. Come on! Comment! and vote in the poll
There definitely needs to be at least a 20 post limit before making a new topic in the dev forum. I have seen many useless threads about issues that dont really exist and questions that should be in the Q&A section by people with 1-3 posts. I doubt anyone below 20 posts is going to contribute anything useful(hell i say 100, but im being nice) to the dev section, and even if they do, who is going to trust flashing something from a new user? Posting in currently open threads should not be limited, just creating new topics. Any opposed?
I think the developer section should be read only unless you're approved.
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk
Coming from a guy with less than 20 posts I agree. I don't post a lot as you can tell but when I want to look to see if there is anything new out on the development side I get tired of seeing useless post that should be here or in Q&A. I think a post requirement would lower the useless threads
Sent via the Sprint HTC EVO
same here.
deleted because I didn't read the title properly.
I agree
10 char
Just look at how better organized the dev section is for the nexus. Im not saying they shouldnt be able to post at all, just not create new topics.
Nexus dev forum: http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=559
I disagree, I think that posting a new topic in the development forum should be restricted somehow. Maybe by invite that is easy to apply for and easier to lose. If it were restricted by post count, we could be alienating new devs from other sites or phones. I think that topic starters in the development forum should be able to lock out non-developers from commenting if they want also. Its very frustrating to me (not a developer) when I am trying to read a development thread and its full of people making dumb comments or 300 posts thanking the developer while I'm trying to read the thread for something useful.
k2snowboards88 said:
I disagree, I think that posting a new topic in the development forum should be restricted somehow. Maybe by invite that is easy to apply for and easier to lose. If it were restricted by post count, we could be alienating new devs from other sites or phones.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Valid point...
Sent via the Sprint HTC EVO
k2snowboards88 said:
I disagree, I think that posting a new topic in the development forum should be restricted somehow. Maybe by invite that is easy to apply for and easier to lose. If it were restricted by post count, we could be alienating new devs from other sites or phones. I think that topic starters in the development forum should be able to lock out non-developers from commenting if they want also. Its very frustrating to me (not a developer) when I am trying to read a development thread and its full of people making dumb comments or 300 posts thanking the developer while I'm trying to read the thread for something useful.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its all about trying to get your post count higher in order to make yourself look good.haha.......
I do agree on some kind of restriction, but how is one supose to get a post count of 20 if you cant post.
lostinroot:) said:
Its all about trying to get your post count higher in order to make yourself look good.haha.......
I do agree on some kind of restriction, but how is one supose to get a post count of 20 if you cant post.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thing is, the board is able to do builtin post minimum blocking i believe. It cant do the other fancy application things and what not.
And you can always post everywhere else.
k2snowboards88 said:
If it were restricted by post count, we could be alienating new devs from other sites or phones.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I really agree with this. There are plenty of people with good ideas who only bother to register when they have something interesting to share.
It might also be worthwhile to create a few sub-forums under the development forum. For example: one for ROMs, one for known fixes and one for fixes under development.
Richard
Mast3rpyr0 said:
And you can always post everywhere else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So are you suggesting that a new member with a worthwhile development idea should post in the General forum?
donatom3 said:
I think the developer section should be read only unless you're approved.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree under one condition... If I'm approved.
I agree.
I would also suggest that there be a panel established for "Jr. Members" to prove themselves worthy of posting in the dev section. That would enable devs new to the forum to have a voice and post worthwhile thoughts. The rest of us can just sit back and read!
ramiss said:
So are you suggesting that a new member with a worthwhile development idea should post in the General forum?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I mean if you want to flash something made by someone with 2 posts then go head, but i most certainly will not. 20 posts was not hard at all, even without just posting crap. All you gotta do is find a few threads your interested in and post a few things in them and you got em.
k2snowboards88 said:
I disagree, I think that posting a new topic in the development forum should be restricted somehow. Maybe by invite that is easy to apply for and easier to lose. If it were restricted by post count, we could be alienating new devs from other sites or phones. I think that topic starters in the development forum should be able to lock out non-developers from commenting if they want also. Its very frustrating to me (not a developer) when I am trying to read a development thread and its full of people making dumb comments or 300 posts thanking the developer while I'm trying to read the thread for something useful.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i agree the op should have mini admin powers to basically lock out people who are offering no help or productivity to the thread. of course it has to be approved by a real admin, you know like if i started a development thread and someone posted something stupid i could flag that user and ask an admin to basically make it so i have to approve their posts...it wouldn't create more work for admins it would make more work for the original poster, BUT if the original poster felt that these people are actually doing a disservice to their thread then i would imagine they would put in the time to edit out the dumb posts.
Mast3rpyr0 said:
I mean if you want to flash something made by someone with 2 posts then go head, but i most certainly will not. 20 posts was not hard at all, even without just posting crap. All you gotta do is find a few threads your interested in and post a few things in them and you got em.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As you said, 20 posts is not hard to reach... yet that somehow would qualify a poster to then be able to post in the Dev area??? Fuzzy logic there. I don't think post count should matter one way or another, it's just another way to discriminate against people for no reason. What says that the more posts you have, the more important your contributions to the community? Nothing.
I do agree that I most likely would not flash a rom that was posted up by a new member, unless I really just wanted to test and had nothing to lose. Many people here have more than one device and can flash without worrying about interrupting their phone service.
Bottom line, someone could have 500 posts, with nothing real to contribue inside of those posts, and later, post a lame rom that isn't worth the time it takes to flash it. Whereas, another user could only have 1 post to say hello, and be very savvy in the dev arena, who happens to post up a kickass rom that everyone wants. Post count shouldn't be a determining factor.
Jye75 said:
As you said, 20 posts is not hard to reach... yet that somehow would qualify a poster to then be able to post in the Dev area??? Fuzzy logic there. I don't think post count should matter one way or another, it's just another way to discriminate against people for no reason. What says that the more posts you have, the more important your contributions to the community? Nothing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not true.
The implication is that since you have more posts, (200 +, IMO), one should be familiar with what questions to ask, the manner in which to ask them, and be able to understand the answer given. That said; I know there *some* people with high post counts that may not be as "technical" or knowledgeable, though there input is just as valid as anyone else's (if you really don't want to discriminate). Conversely, I've seen people with 20 posts who have made great contributions as well, technical or not.
In regards to this thread, I think the way XDA does its moderation is fine. Though it would be nice to have have restrictions on new users, one of the major reasons why we shouldn't is because, you can't gauge a new user's level of skill/knowledge via there post count, but rather what they contribute.
Sure the majority of new users may not know anything about Android or be technical, but often, when a new phone comes out (like the EVO) there have been "new users" who come from other Android forums (SDX, AC, PPG, etc) and contribute right off the bat (first post even -- e.g. Calkulin, Joeykrim, etc) because they were top developers in there respective previous forums; however not many people would know that and right away asssume that there initial posts may not be as credible as someone with 200+ posts. My point is gauging the level of "knowledge, technical skill, etc" based on ones post count isn't really reliable, rather people should focus there attention on what the OP's has to say about the topic at hand and his/her contributions overall.
I see no reason to limit new users, especially with a forum such as this one, where a new users curiosity is thriving to get answers and ask questions because they want to see what his/her new Android phone is capable of. We were all in the same boat at one point, we probably Googled "How to root the "X" and XDA was the first on the list, thus the reason for us being here now.
Open Source means contribution by whomever (technical user or non-technical user) it shouldn't matter. Whatever can better this community to allow each individual to get the best experience out of his/her device, is what the aim should be. Ultimately however, it would be nice if the person who has received something also contribute back to the community in some way or another, creating an endless cycle of new and ever changing questions, answers, ideas, and contributions for us all.
pseudoremora said:
Not true.
Really? Your post contradicts you.
The implication is that since you have more posts, (200 +, IMO), one should be familiar with what questions to ask, the manner in which to ask them, and be able to understand the answer given. That said; I know there *some* people with high post counts that may not be as "technical" or knowledgeable, though there input is just as valid as anyone else's (if you really don't want to discriminate). Conversely, I've seen people with 20 posts who have made great contributions as well, technical or not.
In regards to this thread, I think the way XDA does its moderation is fine. Though it would be nice to have have restrictions on new users, one of the major reasons why we shouldn't is because, you can't gauge a new user's level of skill/knowledge via there post count, but rather what they contribute.
Sure the majority of new users may not know anything about Android or be technical, but often, when a new phone comes out (like the EVO) there have been "new users" who come from other Android forums (SDX, AC, PPG, etc) and contribute right off the bat (first post even -- e.g. Calkulin, Joeykrim, etc) because they were top developers in there respective previous forums; however not many people would know that and right away asssume that there initial posts may not be as credible as someone with 200+ posts. My point is gauging the level of "knowledge, technical skill, etc" based on ones post count isn't really reliable, rather people should focus there attention on what the OP's has to say about the topic at hand and his/her contributions overall.
I see no reason to limit new users, especially with a forum such as this one, where a new users curiosity is thriving to get answers and ask questions because they want to see what his/her new Android phone is capable of. We were all in the same boat at one point, we probably Googled "How to root the "X" and XDA was the first on the list, thus the reason for us being here now.
Open Source means contribution by whomever (technical user or non-technical user) it shouldn't matter. Whatever can better this community to allow each individual to get the best experience out of his/her device, is what the aim should be. Ultimately however, it would be nice if the person who has received something also contribute back to the community in some way or another, creating an endless cycle of new and ever changing questions, answers, ideas, and contributions for us all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, one would HOPE that this implication holds true, however, since it's not a guaranteed truth, it doesn't stand to reason that post count should be the qualifying factor in deciding if one could post or not. As far as the rest of your post goes, you and I are on the same page.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/group.php?groupid=287
Join now if your are currently a user of any of the Samsung Galaxy S devices!!!
What's the difference between the your xda group and say the xda forum section dedicated to the Galaxy?
Honest question, not trying to be funny.
A bit redundant really.
Ummmmmm WTFITS??
Joined, although mine is in for repair right now..
If we get all of the Galaxy devices working together we can acomplish a lot more! We are not enemies, we need to help each other. Developers and the community as a whole are needed to make our devices the best available.
Whosdaman said:
If we get all of the Galaxy devices working together we can acomplish a lot more! We are not enemies, we need to help each other. Developers and the community as a whole are needed to make our devices the best available.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
how does that explains what the group is all about? I think we all read and post the galaxy s forums.. or did i miss smth?
It's the point that now there is one place that everyone can look at for the most important things.
Ok... this is kinda dumb... what do you think the XDA forums are for.. I don't need spam.. so i'm out.
Seriously? What are the points of groups then. Obviously ignorance is bliss in this community. If groups are organized accordinally, they can ultimately benefit the society of any device much more then the forums can.
Tell all of them to join here and sod off numbnuts.
Sent from my GT-I9000M using Tapatalk
maybe the group has links to warez？
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA App
What's so official about it? I think you made a typo in your title, because if it were official, Samsung would have started it, or at least endorse it. Have they?
The fact you need to be part of the group to even see group comments to me suggests it will actually reduce collaboration slightly. It's more of a exclusive little community (the title says so themselves), and I don't like to feel part of some exclusive little club, I want to share with the community.
Sorry, I don't think I'll join. Either way, you can't just share ROM's between the devices, because they do contain some different hardware. There are good reasons for keeping the various i9000 variants separate in the forums
This is just my opinion (no offense)
andrewluecke said:
What's so official about it? I think you made a typo in your title, because if it were official, Samsung would have started it, or at least endorse it. Have they?
The fact you need to be part of the group to even see group comments to me suggests it will actually reduce collaboration slightly. It's more of a exclusive little community (the title says so themselves), and I don't like to feel part of some exclusive little club, I want to share with the community.
Sorry, I don't think I'll join. Either way, you can't just share ROM's between the devices, because they do contain some different hardware. There are good reasons for keeping the various i9000 variants separate in the forums
This is just my opinion (no offense)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Since your so against it, why is everyone else for it?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=764084
Why join a bunch of dead forums with no developers and no developers that own an actual i9000?
Ran in plenty of forums that copy-paste xda, don't see the need for another one.
Dead forums??? Captavate is very alive, the Epic just came out, and the Fasinate isnt out yet....you are very naive
The fact that you are here truong to get everyone to join your other forum shows the success of this forum already... Why don't ya suck a hind tit and get lost.
Sent from my GT-I9000M using Tapatalk
Whoa calm down everyone, no need to be brash about this and start telling the OP to 'suck a hind tit'.
What he's trying to say his, user AllGamer proposed that we should merge all sub forums into one, but that's obviously not going to happen, so correct me if i'm wrong, the OP has created a group for ALL Galaxy S user variants to join, and share info, which means we can collectively figure things out etc. I think it's a decent idea, but time will tell.
Stop attacking the OP and get on with it, if you don't want to join, DON'T, if you do, DO, so simple yet some people want to argue. This is a friendly forum, not a *****y one.
MAMBO04 said:
Whoa calm down everyone, no need to be brash about this and start telling the OP to 'suck a hind tit'.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I do agree stuff like that shouldn't be said. However, this doesn't change the fact that there is reason to be concerned that "whosdaman" is misleading people about the group's "official" status, especially when he is the maintainer. There is nothing official about it, and he is now WELL aware of it, but still hasn't changed this topic..
Also, he still hasn't changed the comment viewing permissions. You still MUST be a member to read any information, which seems to suggest he has a greater interest in boosting numbers than encouraging cooperation.
I think this social group is good for general discussion (well, would be if he opened it up), but central group's aren't really suitable for development, because these phones are slightly different. Until it becomes public though it is a step backwards (particularly long term, because I am unsure if Google indexes sign-up-to-read groups on this forum)
If its not broken, don't fix it.
I know this may sound far-fetched, but I am proposing a possible merger of developers from all the Galaxy S series. I know that the hardware may slightly differ, but apart from a led flash here, ffc, keyboard, and 4g, the hardware is the same. After all, 10+ devs are better than 1 or 2 per section. Perhaps a seperate subforum for devs or senior members only to create and test new roms can be created, members test with their own phones and report, and devs can collaborate.
I understand that some junior members may complain about beta bugs and such, but that is why I proposed a restricted area only to those who fully comprehend that a new rom does include bugs.
I know CM7 is such a project, but perhaps we should extend that scope to something beyond that, and utilize the advantage that Samsung has given us by 10 million sales.
I would love this, but I doubt many will come from I9000 computer...
I9000 had everything, we need from them, but they dont need anything from us.
But fascinate, captivate etc. they might, post on their forums as well.
Nice idea but the phones are different enough to make real problems.
We are lucky that the Vibrant is closest to the I9000. This was the main reason I bought this phone
Can't hurt to try it. After all, once one stable build that fixes compatibility issues is done, then we are set...
We could melt them all together and make 1 super developer!
And the thread was closed... (Dissent causes censure).
Fellow Community: Something going arawy in the Samsung I9100 (Galaxy S2) forums.
The purpose of me opening this thread is to ensure community discussion occurs.
With good intentions, our User Experinance Admin @sveitus has sliced apart The Samsung Galaxy S II Android Development, hiving off `the cream` into The Samsung Galaxy S II Original ROM development thread.
The idea being to Quoting (and please read @sveitus's post in case I'm selectively quoting) the explanitory thread
This forum is for ROMs that aren't an original creation by you in terms of the underlying software, meaning, they've been either 1. developed with assistance from a kitchen or are 2. a re-skinning/re-themeing/minor adjustment of a particular ROM developed by someone else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Original ROM's are now found within this subforum
Setting aside the lunacy of thinking that anything apart from ASOP and Samsung's stock ROM isn't derived from something else... or the difficulties in determining which belongs in one thread or another (just watch them bouncy from one to another), I find a two things contra XDA ethos.
This subdivision was done without community consultation.
When announced, there was rapid dissent and the response was to close the thread (for heavens sake).
In fairness, to quote @sveitus
P.S. This is a bit of an experiment. Should it make sense, we'll roll it out to other forums on XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
, although my concern is that there is no criteria laid down for "success"
I believe this is a reaction, maybe considered, to two things:
I believe that proportion of the community would like to see forums divided (from what I can tell, divided into Kernels, ROMs and Modems), a proportion are comfortable (complacenty abiding with?) the current structure and a proportion who want to differentiate `original` with `derived`. As is also common in politics, the silent majority will be ignored in favour of the loud minority. I suspect that the democratic view is unknown in this instance.
I believe that this split is a knee jerk reaction to an unfortunate incident where someone released a ROM claiming their own work when (to be confirmed?) all bar part of a theme was taken raw from another source uncredited.
Personally speaking, for a mod to close a thread without explaination isn't easily forgiveable.
What say you?
p.s. (edit) We already have different classes of users based on number of postings, etc.
The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.
svetius said:
The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for the quick response. I guess the division of the Samsung S2 forum was an incredibly short lived experiment and I imagine they are being remerged as I type and that themes can live where always should have in their own `themes and apps` sub forum.
I do understand why it is desirable to identify deriviative ROMs (hint: Look at the HD2 Android Dev forum(s) rules to see a great example of useful identification tags in subjects).
Sending you a pm regarding the closure of the thread (for the purpose of me opening this thread was to offer awareness and give our community a voice.
I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from and just want a category which just contains ROMS, no sitckies, no dev no "coming" soons, just fully flashable ROMS. Now if you could so this it would make this area much easier to use.
I have to say I just don't get this ROM theft rubbish, Android is supposed to be open source, if you don't want to share your ROM don't post it full stop. If donations are'nt good enough for you then don't post it. If someone uses your work then see it as a compliment and live with it. Adding rules and further layers of complexity to the ROM cooking process is just causing arguments that need not be there. Cooks have to accept that their work is going to used, DEVs also as long as it isn't actually an app.
Now if this attitude puts some people off then the ROMS posted will be fewer in number but populated with those lovingly crafted for the sake of it and not by those who simply want ego boosts to or to generate a profit, this isnt what open source or XDA is supposed to be about...!
discuss..
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
stoolzo said:
...Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In a perfect world, that would be ideal. Relying on people to do the right thing would unfortunately lead to chaos. Why? Should we get rid of police officers and courts and just rely on people to "do the right thing"? Nice idea, however the world you mention is fantasy.
stoolzo said:
I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.
stoolzo said:
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.
khein said:
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.
Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave
egzthunder1 said:
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.
DaveShaw said:
Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.
egzthunder1 said:
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?
stoolzo said:
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Users did not self moderate 4+ years ago.... there was less need for moderation. You didn't see constant intervention by mods, not because the rules were not in place or because the mods were not around, but rather because there was no drama in the titanic proportions that we see it daily. It is very easy to speak from the regular member's stand point, but the amount of stuff that we (mods and admins) see going through this site day in and day out since the smartphone market exploded would make you want to jump out of a window!
You are suggesting, in essence, that we do away with our rules and let people "do the right thing." Why? Our rules have been in place since early 2003 when the site was founded. For over 5 years, these rules have made xda-developers the site that many regard today as the largest developer community on the web.
You speak of the objective of XDA, what do you think this is? Do you know what the true mission of this site is? XDA is a development and hacking community. It isn't end users that make this community, it is developers, hackers, and enthusiast that are the back-bone of this site. Do you want to know what XDA truly is about?
Read this
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is the true ethos of XDA. This is what our community and founding members believed and still do regarding how our site should work and what our members should do to "fit" here.
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
khein said:
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Tbh I think you miss the point. We aren't saying derivative roms aren't important. Of course they are. I even use them occasionally myself. If I'm having an issue with a rom I'm using, of course I will try and help fix the bug. What we are trying to do is aid developers by splitting the forums up into two clear sections
stoolzo said:
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That wasn't the only reason you know. Just one of the consequences of the new idea that seems to have been overlooked thus far.
stoolzo said:
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey,
Tier 1 does sorta exist It's the recognized developer program, which has an area for this.
If I'm honest, what you describe sounds very much like the new system, with a "big stuff" section (the rec dev area), then a tier 2 area, where the "original" stuff goes, and a tier 3 area for the remainder?
well, not really, my way does not seeks to discourage people by singling out their work, however apparently trivial it may appear to be inferior to others - openly...
My idea was really about giving the more technical / coding minded people more of a say in how they work, somewhere more quiet to share and discuss stuff. If you say this already exists then why don't you extend it to encompass the more favoured cooks?, the more stuff worked on and completed at this level will leave less to fight over at my level.
I still think you should put all the ROMS back together in one category and kick out all the other dev stuff into to its own, if only to help us lowly users find out next ROM more easily, don't forget about us