Database Users

why i dont like the pay system at the market

So in all of my pda/mobile net/devices/phones(which are 1 in the same, these days) an experience which started in about 1999 with a palm IIIx a 2nd gen Moto Startac, the first thing I ad software wise is ui enhancments/replacements so despite a long history of piracy, only buying apps that stand the test of time 30 days isn't enough in most cases...
I bought dxtop, ahome (may 2nd have that name wrong) and dxtop seems the best of the 2 so far and does an ok job of fixing the horrible ui, 1 mean 1 big huge "junk drawer" of apps, and 3 desktops(my least favorite method of app orginization) feels very basic and unfinished, why no folders in the junk drawer?... but dxtop takes a long time on my system, I do have lotsa memory resident apps and I'm looking to trim that down...
The price is minimal, but
What does everybody else think,
Don't talk about warez, as that's not the issue, getting a good working market is.
I may have read that there is a return period, but I dunno anything about it, let's talk this out maybe the right people read it.
Bhang

So let me get this straight... you hate the pay system because of the default UI? Not to be an ass but I found no reasons about why you hate it other than the fact that you don't like the default UI and that dxtop is slow for you.
Care to elaborate?

Honestly, I'm confused by the post. I don't see the relation between not liking the default UI and the pay system at the market.
As for the return period:
http://market.android.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=134336&topic=15871
24 hours.

I think bhang's complaint is that 24 hours is not a lot of time to trial an app. I agree...
Fortunately ahome, dxTop and openhome have all provided fairly functional free trial versions.

you are all right I wasnt so clear...
My point is I had an app I wanted to try out, dxtop (in full) so I bought it, now maybe the app isnt the solution to the ui issues I'm having, but I cant get my couple bucks back, unless there is a "return period" im unaware of. 24 hours, if I did nothing but investigate the app for the entire 24 hours, I wouldnt be able to find every nook, crannie or flaw, or have any idea of the usefulness of the app.
Are we expected to buy everything then figure out whats worth it ? whats working out for us...?
my question is how can we get to give apps a good run before we buy them outside 24 hours or the goodOl'e 30 day trials, or crippleware.
the point to remember about my post is:
"Friends dont let friends smoke a bunch of ak-47 and then try post on a technical site"
bhang

Well there's two issues at play. One from the developer side and one from the market side.
From the developer side, many do provide trial/lite versions for testing. From the market side you're lucky to have an opprotunity for refund at all.
Have you ever tried returning opened software to a B&M store? Most won't do anything and those that will tend only to do exchanges. Compare that to the fruit themed application market where, unless something changed recently, the policy is no refunds period.
So in the scope of the software world a blanket 24 hour testing/refund period is very generous and it's up to the developer to go beyond that on their own.

Im not saying that I have any idea on how to make the issues fixed for the DEVs and the END users, The corporations I could care less about, alot of the developers do offer free versions or crippled versions, in the crippled versions you don't know what those other features are like, of course they always sound great, and the free versions are nothing more than the betas that came out before charging was implemented....
I want DEVs to get paid when the apps are good well written and useful, I just dont think the market as it is works, so Ill do what I have always done, test the FULL version as long as I want, then buy the apps that hold up/ stand the test of time, most apps look great the first couple of tries, it when you get to know them do you see the flaws, alot like HUMAN interaction, maybe if I keep posting, I can dump the head shrinker and his 40$ copay
like all software distrobution methods (other than GNU/GPL) are broken

I am trying to grasp a concept...

Okay, I'm assuming you all bought your hero's for what it was capable of when you bought it, seeing as there were no confirmed updates from HTC and even Google scheduled yet, so why does the majority get annoyed when their phone misses out on the latest 2.2 update? It still has all the features you bought it for. Any update at all is a positive, no update is neutral since your phone didn't lose anything, it just didn't gain anything either. Besides the fact that our Hero's already have basic flash support and are ahead of most devices in functionality just because it was ahead of its time when it got released?

I am somewhere in the middle: somewhat content with my Android 1.5 Hero and somewhat annoyed at the lack of updates. I think the trouble all comes down to convergence. Let me toss a couple thoughts your way. Generally speaking, in the recent past people have:
1) Paid full price for a computer (laptop, desktop, etc) and then promptly go out at get what ever Internet service provider they want (cable DSL) etc. The computer works on any network.
2) Paid a reduced price for mobile phones for the trade off of signing a contract and being tied to a particular provider. In many cases, only certain phones are available on certain networks. This is the complete opposite of the computer case in #1
3) Expected that their computer will be upgradeable (for a fee) over the years, at least until the hardware becomes obsolete. I know I've had XP, Vista, and Windows 7 on the same machine.
4) Expected that if they wanted new features on a phone, they would need to get a new phone.
Now the phones and computers are, too some extent, converging into one device. If I use my Android phone to check email, twitter, facebook, etc and never make voice calls - is it really a phone? No, it is just another Internet connected device for which my expectations are typically that I can upgrade the device until the hardware becomes obsolete. I didn't necessarily say that should be free, but it should be possible.
Another aspect that people expect of their computers, is that they can load virtually any application designed for that OS. Even today, most applications (if not all?) written for Windows 7 still run on XP. With Android, the applications seem to have been tied to the OS. For example, with my 1.5 phone I still can't use Google Voice search or Google Goggles? Why? My phone has a camera and a microphone, but for some reason you need to have 1.6 for them. Same for the free Google Navigation. You need to have a later version - just to run an application.
Again, I am somewhere in the middle. I have been VERY pleased with my HTC Hero. At the same time, I sure would like Google Voice search, Navigation, multiple gmail accounts, etc. I might even be willing to pay to update it (much like Apple makes people pay for iPod Touch updates). But shelling out $600 for a new phone (I buy unlocked - which is much cheaper for me in the long run) for those features does not seem worth it.
The lesson learned might be to always by the Google phone (i.e. Nexus One or whatever comes next). Google are responsible for pushing out those updates and it seems to happen fast!

I bouth my Hero after I saw the HTC tweet that they are working on the 2.1.
Update from 2.1 to 2.2 is a natural function of Android - it's OTA friendly. If a manufacturer declares Android, it declares everything what goes with it. If they don't want to spend time on such minor updates as 2.2, they should declare that as well: Android without updates. And they have not. So people are angry for not getting what they expect. And the expectatons are absolutely reasonable. That's why I will NOT buy any other HTC device. I learned that they dont't treat us, customers, fairly. They are going to do the same exact thing with the Desire as well. Not going down that path again.

I personally haven't heard one person moaning about not getting 2.2.
But people are expecting 2.1 due to no updates being given on the OS since the handset was released. Hero users were promised a long time ago that we would be getting 2.1 due to 1.6 being skipped, whereas other, lower spec models had that update.

You don't know what functionality will be added two updates later, so not having them is neutral, no one is oblidged to update their products and they can be discontinued whenever they wish. Does it matter? No, you got the phone based on the features it had when you bought it, the phone doesn't all of a sudden get worse because it didn't get an update.
I for one will purchase another HTC device when I'm done with my hero, simply because they deliver the best product with the best feature set regarding android, if updates are slow oh well, I buy phones for what they are capable of at the time of purchase since I can't look into the future, and neither can you.

So - all you set out to do with your original post was anger people and not take into account other peoples point of view? I took some time to provide some rational arguments.
Dont you expect to get updates for your computer? Graphics Drivers? Network Drivers? Operating Systems? Surely you don't just by a new computer everytime you need that functionality. You expect either the OS Vendor or the computer manufacturer to provide updates - both to create new features and fix bugs.

Bug fixes yes, but as they said those will be provided, and no I don't expect additional features, sure I'll be happy with new features but I didn't expect them. Even though phones are getting closer and closer to being computers they aren't.

How are they different?

seshmaru said:
Okay, I'm assuming you all bought your hero's for what it was capable of when you bought it, seeing as there were no confirmed updates from HTC and even Google scheduled yet, so why does the majority get annoyed when their phone misses out on the latest 2.2 update? It still has all the features you bought it for. Any update at all is a positive, no update is neutral since your phone didn't lose anything, it just didn't gain anything either. Besides the fact that our Hero's already have basic flash support and are ahead of most devices in functionality just because it was ahead of its time when it got released?
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I was happy with it when I got it, it was after all the flagship HTC device of 2009. But then about a month later 1.6 came out, and HTC said they were working on an upgrade to 1.6. This was delayed, then 2.0 came out and HTC suggested they would upgrade to 2.0 instead. The same happened with 2.1. But you are correct that they never really announced any upgrades officially, it was just announced on there twitter stream. Which is half the problem really. They kept suggesting that they were working on an upgrade, but kept pushing it back. Had they just done the 1.6 upgrade and then stopped, I don't think half as many people would be annoyed.
What HTC did wrong here was to give inconsistent information, along with delays and then kept junking what they had done and telling people they were working on something better. As a result, people kept hanging on, and being told that if they just waited a little longer then they would get an upgrade. If HTC had just come clean and updated us with offical announcements, or had stuck with 1.6 and been honest about a lack of improvement, then people wouldn't still be waiting.
Also, if you look at the iPhone model, they may charge for upgrades but the original 2G iPhone has only just gone out of support. Given that the Hero was the 2009 flagship Android device, and was still being sold way into 2010, its a little hard to stomach the idea that its out of support so quickly.
tl;dr HTC kept pissing us around and making us wait just a little longer, when it could have just said "not going to happen, here is 1.6, sorry" and this is annoying.

Are we buying a piece of hardware which is only going to be bug fixed, or are we buying hardware which is going to be updated for a certain amount of time even after they're no longer selling it?
In my opinion we're not just buying hardware, we're buying a software package behind it. That software needs to be updated, otherwise some major killer feature in a slightly newer version isn't possible for you to get - such as Google navigation, can turn a 6 month old phone which has the hardware capability into a device which is so frustrating.
I expect my device to last around 2 years, various networks offer contracts on these devices for 2 years, I think it's fair to expect updates to smart phones for that duration. I wouldn't expect every feature to be supported (eg. no live wallpaper if the device can't handle it), but it should be updated so it's possible to run the latest apps on it.
The phone manufacturers need to be honest on how long they plan to support these things, because it is becoming an issue. People feel abandoned if they pay hundreds of pounds on a device and never get an update, whilst other users pay the same amount and get multiple updates. If HTC doesn't want to release updates then that's fine - I'll just consider it before buying the device.

clobber said:
I am somewhere in the middle: somewhat content with my Android 1.5 Hero and somewhat annoyed at the lack of updates. I think the trouble all comes down to convergence [snip].
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Nice argument. I hadn't thought about the convergence issue. You might well have hit the nail on the head.

I see your point, but if you had gotten any other non android smartphone besides the iPhone you wouldn't be getting significant feature set updates either.

But some people bought the hero because HTC said they were working on 2.1 months ago, others bought it because it was advertised "Android" and assumed you'd get Android updates. Others bought it because it's a good phone, but to the first two groups of people, the promise of new features was a reason for buying.
People are annoyed because HTC won't provide an update they've said they're working on (2.1), which seems to be a marketing interference to get as many people to buy a new device, rather than keep using their all one.
Also annoying is that we're stymied from having a generic OS made with drivers for all sorts of mobile hardware, but that's more of a philosophical annoyance.

I'm ticked off at the lack of update, not because I think I deserve an update per se, but more because I think I deserve all the features to work properly on my phone, and they don't.
And it's not like I could have tried it before I bought it either...
I've been an HTC user since 2003 and have always promoted the brand, but I don't think I'll get another one after this.

New Market and refunds

So there is a 15 minute limit on refunds now in the new Market app.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't someone just copy the .apk off the phone while in clockwork, then reboot, and refund? You'd still have the copied .apk to reinstall.
This isn't a test of piracy whatsoever, but a test of how low the security is on the device. I'm just curious if this is how it really works! If so, I think it needs fixed asap.

kaschenberg said:
So there is a 15 minute limit on refunds now in the new Market app.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't someone just copy the .apk off the phone while in clockwork, then reboot, and refund? You'd still have the copied .apk to reinstall.
This isn't a test of piracy whatsoever, but a test of how low the security is on the device. I'm just curious if this is how it really works! If so, I think it needs fixed asap.
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Thanks for hashing out the obvious, even if you're going all about it the wrong way.
Let me restate what you tried to say:
Google has changed the market refund window to 15m from 24h, screwing real customers without actually affecting piracy at all.

This made my day xD
Sent from my HTC Liberty using XDA App

khaytsus said:
Thanks for hashing out the obvious, even if you're going all about it the wrong way.
Let me restate what you tried to say:
Google has changed the market refund window to 15m from 24h, screwing real customers without actually affecting piracy at all.
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Let's be real here, they could fix the piracy issues easily if they wanted to - we all know Google is smart! I'm just curious as to why they made it this easy to do the "obvious"...

Google already provides provisions for this, the developers just have to use them. Titanium backup pro phones home to run a check for example and won't run.
Sent from my Liberty using XDA App

Gingerbread is supposed to add a lot of support for game developers in it's SDK with that I think google is trying to make the Android Market a bit more appealing to third party game developers. Making the refund window 15 minutes, now assures that you won't be able to download a game beat it in a few hours and then uninstall and refund the game.
Because yes obviously this doesn't thwart piracy and that's why I dont think it's supposed to be an anti piracy feature. Plus the average smart phone user is not going to start pulling apk's in clockwork or adb.
Plus I think we have just been spoiled with a 24 hour refund window, at least we'll HAVE a refund window unlike the iphone users. Hopefully this overall will actually make the market better, people will write better reviews and stuff. I personally don't think it is a huge deal, whenever I purchase something in the Market I base my decision mainly on the Market comments and the star rating, usually one knows wether a purchase was worth it within the first 10 minutes.

pcruz said:
Gingerbread is supposed to add a lot of support for game developers in it's SDK with that I think google is trying to make the Android Market a bit more appealing to third party game developers. Making the refund window 15 minutes, now assures that you won't be able to download a game beat it in a few hours and then uninstall and refund the game.
Because yes obviously this doesn't thwart piracy and that's why I dont think it's supposed to be an anti piracy feature. Plus the average smart phone user is not going to start pulling apk's in clockwork or adb.
Plus I think we have just been spoiled with a 24 hour refund window, at least we'll HAVE a refund window unlike the iphone users. Hopefully this overall will actually make the market better, people will write better reviews and stuff. I personally don't think it is a huge deal, whenever I purchase something in the Market I base my decision mainly on the Market comments and the star rating, usually one knows wether a purchase was worth it within the first 10 minutes.
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Hehe i'd have to agree that I also base my downloads based upon reviews. Even though, they do seem a bit biased or imastupidkidwithbadgrammar-ish-like...

I guess if you have a free version, then there's no real need to have a refund window. You can do all your testing in free.
It's a bit annoying to see many 'refunds' from people who are just pirating the apps. It would be nice to have devs set the refund time.
15 minutes is neither fish nor fowl.

I'm happy you have the option to at least get a refund. I have a 5 year old with Autism and forgot to disable the app store on his iPad and within ten minutes I was the proud new owner of about 5 bowling apps Luckily it was only about $10 but it could have been a lot worse had he navigated to a different screen *face/palm*

How come the LeiaSoft apps are still updated?

Every time I check my Hydrogen One, which is every time I go to vacation and want to take 3D photos, I check LeiaSoft and every time I notice that some apps have been updated, both third party and first party like LeiaPlayer. Today I even noticed a new game (Daytona Rush).
Since there will be no Hydrogen Two and the whole product range is dead, who updates them? Does Leia still exist? They have a website, but all it does is parade vaporware. Strange... I expected the whole holographic apps to go the way of LG Optimus 3D apps or LG G5 accessories.

Private Share app in One UI 3.1 update.

I have an off the wall question but can anyone possibly tell me what version of Private Share was on the first One UI 3.1 update on the S10 Plus? I had never see or heard of the app until my girlfriend brought it to my attention while she was snooping in my Google Activity. I know that system apps typically auto update, which it seems like mine did because it shows in the activity on the date I update my device and a few days later. But again, I had never seen or heard of Private Share. Now I have spent the last two days explaining how Android and Samsung updates work, how she herself had the goddamn app on her S10 Plus too but she still thinks I'm doing something shady with it. Nevermind that the app only works with certain other Galaxy devices also. That's not good enough for her.