so after posting an excerpt of my letter to Dan Morrill, the author of the absolutely idiotic statement regarding what they're doing, i received several PMs asking me to post the whole thing. It's so long it wont fit in a single post, so read it all. if you dont want to read a wall of text, stop here and go to a new thread.
Mr. Morrill,
First, I would like to bid you a good day, as I'm sure this letter is going to effect it. Yes, that is a bold statement to make at the onset, but writings such as these have a way of eating their way into your psyche and leaving a lasting impression that could very well sour your appetite at lunch time.
Perhaps I should introduce myself. My name is XXXXXXXXXXXXX, and I am an amateur developer on the Android platform. I am also a user of many of the custom Android builds that have come out since the release of the source development kit, including the build made by Steve "Cyanogen" Kondik. Ah, yes, now you see what this letter is going to be about.
So lets start with the basics. Google is a multi-billion dollar corporation that released a supposedly open-source platform onto the mobile device market. Now, I say mobile device as opposed to mobile phone, simply because there are products being released, such as the Zii EGG, which do not support telecommuniations, yet are still running on the Android platform. Now, in any reasonable programmers mind, the reason for making a platform open source, regardless of what the Public Relations people spin it as, is to alleviate some of the burden on the actual in-house development teams. The source code created by thousands of bright minds is doubtless going to yield a much stonger end result than that of a small development squad. Its simple mathematics. Well, that point alongside the fact that the original linux developers made no secret of their intentions by open-sourcing their operating system, which paved the way for Android many many years later.
In addition to that, all of the applications included in the "stock", or unmodified and officially released Android, builds are free. Any user with internet access can use any of these functions through the internet, with the blessings of your employer, free of charge. Yet, somehow, this has caused a sort of hiccup between your supposed idea of free development and that of the general public. Now, before you warp your mind into "this guy doesnt know what he's talking about" mode, think about the principles that your company was founded upon. You wanted to beat out the corporate giants and look out for the little guy. Oh yes, I've done my homework on Google over the years. The benevolent company trying to provide free services for the masses that the "evil-empire" corporations would deny free access to. Ironically enough, this letter is being written to you on Google Docs, another of your free services. Quite troublesome, it would seem.
And now, lest I digress further, I'll shift to the meat of the topic. In your statement regarding the cease and desist letter to Mr. Kondik, you claim that the sales of your free software to be used on mobile platforms being provided to the end user by custom developers for free would hurt the bottom line. Perhaps you should re-examine your own words. Free software being given to the masses by developers whom you claim to encourage is huring your profit share because you cannot sell the use of it to large corporations. Pardon me if I fail to understand the rationale behind such a contradictory and obviously ridiculous statement. But just so that you can understand my position on the matter, lets look at a related position. Google produces an internet browser, Chrome. Mozilla, a competing franchise, produces Firefox, their own browser. Developers for firefox have created applications which borrow on Google's proprietary code to access the functionality of the various features and programs. Are these developers charged for being able to include such features? No. Are these developers caused to halt their activities through threats of legal action for providing end users access to the capabilities that Google readily offers for free? No. So where is the disparity between allowing a competitor to do such things and tying the hands of developers of YOUR open source platform from doing the same?
Before I go further, let me give you a little background on myself to illuminate things. I used to work for XXXXXXXXXXXXXX. I worked in one of their call centers with well over a thousand people, almost a quarter of whom purchased the G1. More than 50% of those users had custom builds running on their phones. How would I know this? I personally installed it on over 300 and gave instructions to many more who wanted to do it themselves. This was one call center. But your apparent attitude on the situation makes it apparent that providing these people with custom software that includes the Google-based programs that were ORIGINALLY ON THE DEVICE AT PURCHASE, is illegal. I'm sorry sir, but that notion is preposterous. All of the Android-based mobile platforms on the market today include the software that caused you to send Mr. Kondik a cease and desist letter. This means that every single end user who purchased one of the devices paid that bottom line you spoke of. Any other rationale is impossible. Non-supporting devices will not run Android, and as such, the only way to use the device is to have purchased one. This brings us to the logical conclusion that those applications, such as GMail and Google Talk are PAID FOR. The situation is equitable to this situation: Joe purchases a computer from a major distributor, say Dell. Dell gives Joe a complimentary piece of free software (available on the Dell website) which updates his drivers on the Dell website, included with his purchase. Joe decides he doesnt particularly like the operating system on the computer, and installs an operating system more to his liking, that also happens to include the Dell software. But lo-and-behold, that free software shouldnt be free to Joe, even though he paid Dell's bottom line through his original computer purchase.
Your flaw is that you are obviously trying to "spin" the situation. Unfortunately, its a thin disguise and everyone can see through it, clear as crystal. These people that I speak of? Developers. The developers whom you claim to encourage. This brings me to my next point. Developers are essentially software hackers. They take the code from a program, rip it apart, improve on it, and then put it back out on the market for other developers to toy with. Perhaps, in your travels as a computer programmer, you have come across a copy of the much fabled "hacker's manifesto". Free access to data. That is what it was about at its core philosophy. You claimed to provide developers with that free access through Android, and then punish the people whom you claim to support.
Have you ever seen "The Devil's Advocate", Mr. Morrill? Al Pacino has an excellent line in which he is describing the way God imbued man with instinct, saying "Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow." Is this not what you've done here? You've given us, the developers, what you claim to be an open-source platform, written for mobile platforms that contain previously installed versions of the software, and also containing applications that each and every possible user would have purchased through buying the device on which they run. Then you tell us that it is illegal for us to modify any portion of that software which you see fit at any given point in time. Perhaps you should have just kept it closed-source, so that anything innovative wouldnt stir controvversy, as it would have truly been illegal. You give us a gift and then set the rules in opposition as it suits you.
Now, if I havent struck a nerve yet, perhaps I will in my own belief on the subject. You FEAR us. The android development team put out an initial platform. The developers, using the source code given to us, have turned out platforms on several different versions that utilize more functionality with greater performance, more flexibility and a wider range of features than ANYTHING that the official releases have even come close to. Mr. Kondik's releases are a prime example of this. He has created a version of the platform which utilizes every aspect of the platform infinitely better than the official releases. He has also included functionality from FUTURE releases, constantly and consistently improving on such, in a timeframe that should have your development team in absolute hysterics. That, sir, is what I believe this is about. Fear and shame. Never did you imagine that the Android development community would be able to surpass the Godly heights of the original development team, but we have and continually do so. It's his popularity that earned him the letter. He posed the biggest threat to your team by sharing a creative vision with anyone willing to install it that your team couldn't possibly compete with. But what about all of the other major developers? As of right now, I can count over a hundred different custom builds that include much of the same functionality and applications that Mr. Kondik's software includes. Are you going to attempt to stop them too?
(continued in post #2)
I assume you have been on the internet before. I assume you know that it spans the globe and has absolutely no limits or boundaries. It is freedom at its peak. Anyone, anywhere can express anything they want. The beautiful thing is that it enables people to communicate, and thereby collaborate in real-time. An internet community with thirty thousand people doesnt have to find a meeting room with enough chairs. This is the problem you're facing. You have attempted to cut the head off of a snake that you created. Unfortunately, on the internet, when you cut off the head of a snake, the body doesnt die. A thousand more heads spawn in its place, angrier, defiant and more intent on their purpose. Perhaps that should be a wake up call.
Mr. Morrill, I hope that in reading this letter, you have come to realize the gravity of your position. You have not only hurt yourselves, but angered an entire community, consisting of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people. These are the people who write the applications that are sold on the Android Market. These are the people who have the time to spare to ensure that you still have a job by creating works of digital art, using the code that you claim to be "open source". Are you so obtuse as to believe that these people are going to slip silently into the night when their creativity is stifled by the whims of a multibillion dollar corporation? I think not, sir.
You simply cannot give freedom to the masses and then attempt to bind their hands, as you are attempting to do in this case. This has ended in cataclysmic failure for every culture and every authority that has attempted to do so in history. We live in a global society of ingenuity. People WILL find a way. The creative power of the developers of the android community will inevitably break you. History has shown ample evidence that a creative mind cannot be beaten down. No army of lawyers, no amount of cease and desist letters will stop the tide of creativity.
It's like a bear. The choice you had was to embrace this creativity and nurture it or to poke at it with a stick. Mr. Morrill, are you aware of the consequences of poking a bear with a stick? Some thought on that will bring you to an obvious, and quite unpleasant, conclusion.
Had you simply left well enough alone, the damage might have been minimal, but at this point you could be looking at a 2009 reenactment of the Boston Tea Party, with the Android platform playing the part of the British tea. The damage to your "bottom line" was so infinitesimally small as to equate to a mouse burping on a rush hour subway car in New York City. As stated previously, it is simply my belief that your development team was offended by the fact that amateur developers would put them to shame. Does Android come with a complimentary set of swim trunks? Perhaps you might invest. I hear Boston Harbor gets cold in the winter.
In closing, perhaps you should let the immortal words of Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto echo through your mind as you contemplate the statements made in this letter:
"I fear that all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve".
Mr. Morrill, the giant is awake now, and his resolve is beyond your wildest dreams. I truly hope you are prepared to reap the consequences of what you have put in motion.
Sincerely,
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
amazing. your right they do fear us and they have woken a sleeping giant. what i dont get is the fact that these roms are making this phone better. as you said you gave over 300 people instructions how to do this at the call center. if anything these devs are helping google make sales, and google doesnt even have to make a better product. they make they same thing tht has been out since 0ct.22.2008 and the devs make it better. you sir are a god among men.
Wow, great letter, really looking forward to hearing the response to this - If you'd post it that is ;-)
You misspelt "purchased" in the eighth paragraph btw
yeah, this was the pre-spell-checked rough draft. the copy that i sent him was clean as a whistle.
Interesting letter. Not to mock you or anything, but it reminds me a lot of Keith Olbermann.
I am a RSA for TMO, and one of the major selling points was that Android was (is?) Open Source. That was a big deal to many customers.
I don't think the folks over a Google realize how tech savvy even the dumbest tech user is.
Had probably a 60 year old man come in the other day and he had put Hero on his G1 by himself.
(No offense to any oldsters.)
The world is changing, and Google just jumped in front of that subway train you mentioned.
this was truly a great letter. i would love to see the response (if you even get one) to this. i feel inspired to go do something now...
Android users, this is your call to arms.
Before you go and write long winded threatening letters to someone, maybe you should look into what you are writing about first. The person you are writing the letter to is an employee of a company that tells him what to do. I doubt after all of the help he has given developers and "hackers" in the Android irc channel, that he was just planning on striking everything down. My guess, and that of many others who know of him (havent chatted a lot, but he is social with us) would be that he was told to write that post. I dont want cyanogen roms to go away either, but I think you are going at it the wrong way. Hate the company, not the developers.
And after re-reading the post, you mention installing this on devices that already have it. The exact same arguement I used but you must also realize that an HTC hero does not get these Google Apps. It is an HTC branded phone and instead gets HTC branded apps. The "With Google" phones are the only ones that come with these apps pre-installed. Even then, apparently (I just found this out today) that your license to these apps does not allow you to copy them OFF of the device they came on. So that cut down another idea we had: copy the apps from the rom to SD, flash image, copy apps back.
Once again, I do not disagree with you or your anger, I just disagree with who you are directing it at.
irrelevant. "i was just doing what i was told" is never an excuse. it doesnt work in the justice system, and it doesnt work here. i could elaborate more, but i really dont want to invoke Godwin's Law this early in the conversation. he opened his mouth. he made himself the target. everyone is a nice and helpful person until they show their true colors.
perhaps its just me, but i'm one of those people that actually hold to my ideals. if i'm fighting for something and my boss tells me to do otherwise, i'm going to tell him to pack sand. if I get fired, i can always find a new job, but I can do so with my integrity intact. he had a choice. everyone always has a choice.
also, to your second post, the HTC branded phones arent the subject of controversy. the apps are "free". i quote free because it isnt true in this case. how is distributing the official Gmail app for free any different than accessing the same capabilities through another means? if I were to delete the official GMail app off of my phone entirely and instead access my gmail account through a browser, wouldnt that have the same effect on Google's "bottom line"? I'm still using the same service and not paying for it. Similarly, with the hero, if you have access to GMail through any email application or browser, are you not violating the same concept? You're still using the core of google's intellectual property for free. Their only real solution is to make the Google apps paid applications that everyone has access to if they want to shell out the cash, or simply drop the whole thing.
Are they going to stop people from creating custom GMail apps too? Cause if so, they've got a big fish to fry, cause they'd have to go after everyone who wrote a gmail plugin for firefox as well. any way you look at it, they're not going to stop the development community from going on, its simply too big.
If Dell gives you a "free" copy of vista on your laptop, and then you buy a compaq with linux installed on it. Does that mean you have the right to install your "free" vista on the compaq also? It was free! How about you write a new windows shell and you bundle your free windows vista with it. And you also throw in your free copy of Office that came with it.
I understand their point and I realize these examples are not EXACT enough to matter, but the point does. They give you the apps for A SPECIFIC device and they give them to you with rules. Rules that we do not like.
I feel that they instead of C&D'ing him, should have had a little sit down with him. Said "hey, we realize you are doing a lot of good for us by promoting our product and giving those who want more what they ask for when we cannot, but we have some rules for you. A, you must make every attempt you can to make sure the roms you distribute go on authorized "With Google" devices. B, not release stuff you do not have permission to release." This would allow google to control what he releases enough to fit within the rules (keeps carriers from saying "hey, he can release your apps without paying, why cant we?"). They would also benefit from the many thousands of users who flock to these custom roms but realize they are unusable in their bare forms.
And so you do not have to, I will be the first to pull the term nazi out of my hat in this one
I agree completely. As i said in the letter, they could have nurtured creativity (i.e. having a sit down with him and saying "hey look, we know that this is going to non-google devices and we cant have that, so make an attempt to not let it happen") or poke it with a stick. They chose the stick, and now they get to reap the backlash.
I also understand your initial examples, and while they do hold true for the circumstance, windows isnt lauded as being an open-source platform. In addition, i havent heard of microsoft going after people who create custom shells that utilize windows information, so long as they put a disclaimer on it saying that you're only allowed to use them if you're running an authorized copy of the OS. The same should have been done here, as you suggested.
Also, microsoft has specific anti-piracy safeguards in place to keep you from installing that software on your compaq that didnt come with it. Can you get around it? sure. Piracy happens, but its also illegal. But google has no such safeguards on the apps. Is it because they lacked the foresight to see this coming? Absolutely. If they didnt want the apps installed on non-branded/non-approved devices, then perhaps they should have made it impossible to do so. Sure, people would eventually find a way around it, but then they'd have a legitimate piracy gripe. As it is now, they dont. You dont hand a kid a cookie, let him eat half and then snatch it away because he shared the chocolate chips. You keep him away from the cookies from the get-go.
It really is a sad state of affiars. If something is going to be free, such as GMail, then Google shouldnt care how the users access it. How big of a chunk of their profits do you think its really going to hurt if people with the hero get a free copy of the gmail app? I bet their legal team made for handling this "issue" than it would cost them in ten years. If the apps in question were paid apps, then I would completely understand. People shouldnt get something free that they should have to pay for, which is one of the reasons that XDA has such a strict "warez" policy. But thats not the case.
The simplest solution would have been to realize that "oops, we did tell them it was open source, maybe we should clarify a bit and see if we can come to a reasonable understanding". But alas...
Also, to your point that the apps came with a specific device, what about those that purchased a device with those apps? We have a right to be using them as we see fit. When I bought my phone, I never signed anything that said that I couldnt theme the application if I wanted to. Google never made me sign a contract. And they couldnt, it would be ridiculous. What about people that purchased them on ebay or craigslist without a contract? They still bought the device and are the owner, and they certainly didnt have to agree not to modify any content. Is google going to go after every developer and every themer now too? Are they going to go after every end user who modified their content? It's just as illegal as making a rom that allows it to happen in the eyes of the law. Apple is attempting to do the same sort of crap with people jailbreaking the iphone. They're saying that even though you bought it, apple technically still owns it, so anything you do to it is illegal. Theres a huge legal debate going on over it right now and apple looks like theyre probably going to lose.
The safeguard they have in place is lack of root access. If you have root access yo have exploited a bug and are acting out of the designed use of the phone. You would not be able to backup or otherwise access these app files. Also, you would not be able to flash the new rom without root, which you gained by exploiting a bug.
Absolutely. But at the same time, the whole "exploiting a bug" argument is similarly null. If the bug never existed, two things would be true:
1. There would be no custom roms for end users, which Mr. Morrill says he supports and looks forward to seeing more of. This would be true since the idea of creating custom software would be idiotic as nobody would be able to install it. The only people utilizing the open-source framework would be major development houses, such as what creative is doing with the plazma stem-cell android that they're putting on the EGG. Application development has nothing to do with open source. The iPhone is not open source, but you can still develop apps for it.
2. The claim that they have about the free distribution of their intellectual property would hold merit, as it would be legitimate software piracy, instead of an unintended side effect of faulty design.
The first point is what makes this a farce. We, as developers, found a way to get custom software onto our devices, something which we were never intended to do. One of two things should have happened at that point: they should have let us continue to do it, which they did (closing the loophole could have been done, they could have found a way to prevent downgrading, seeing as there are no other OS options for the device) or they could have stopped it there and said that exploiting the bug is illegal. Its been a year since the device came out. This has been going on for a YEAR. You mean to tell me that this is an issue NOW and wasnt a year ago when it first started? Its only an issue because they're not the only game in town anymore. Ridiculous. Someone got their feathers ruffled and wanted to take out the little guy.
Ok, I am not going to keep replying to your endless wandering rebuttals. I feel you are wrong in who you are aiming your hate mail at and that is the end of the story.
Thats fine, and I do apologize for being excessively adamant about it. But I still feel I'm right. You only paint a target on yourself if you're prepared for people to shoot at you. Thats all I can say about it.
Darkrift said:
If Dell gives you a "free" copy of vista on your laptop, and then you buy a compaq with linux installed on it. Does that mean you have the right to install your "free" vista on the compaq also? It was free! How about you write a new windows shell and you bundle your free windows vista with it. And you also throw in your free copy of Office that came with it.
I understand their point and I realize these examples are not EXACT enough to matter, but the point does. They give you the apps for A SPECIFIC device and they give them to you with rules. Rules that we do not like.
I feel that they instead of C&D'ing him, should have had a little sit down with him. Said "hey, we realize you are doing a lot of good for us by promoting our product and giving those who want more what they ask for when we cannot, but we have some rules for you. A, you must make every attempt you can to make sure the roms you distribute go on authorized "With Google" devices. B, not release stuff you do not have permission to release." This would allow google to control what he releases enough to fit within the rules (keeps carriers from saying "hey, he can release your apps without paying, why cant we?"). They would also benefit from the many thousands of users who flock to these custom roms but realize they are unusable in their bare forms.
And so you do not have to, I will be the first to pull the term nazi out of my hat in this one
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About your dell giving you a "free" copy of vista. As long as that CD key is only used on one computer, you can use that CD key on ANY computer. Read their TOS. Your are wrong about a lot, but right about some. Changing the integrity of the windows shell is illegal, because that is microsoft property and NOT open source, but anytime you purchase an OS, or computer, you OWN that cd key of the software, all apps that come included as well. Could you try another example?
nice letter.
not so sure about the whole HTC (not "with google") phone thing- my magic is a HTC magic (32A) and it came will every single google app preinstalled on it.... not sure about hero though...
MontAlbert said:
nice letter.
not so sure about the whole HTC (not "with google") phone thing- my magic is a HTC magic (32A) and it came will every single google app preinstalled on it.... not sure about hero though...
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Hero did too.
Regards,
Dave
Is it just me, or is it weird that XDA disallows the posting of xap files for paid apps, but has a forum for HD2's running WP7?
Sent from my SGH-i917 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
it's just you.
Hagenlund said:
it's just you.
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ok fair enough...
Let me be more direct then.
How does the same policy that condemns the posting of .xap files for paid apps justify the piracy of Microsoft's WP7 OS?
munkeyphyst said:
ok fair enough...
Let me be more direct then.
How does the same policy that condemns the posting of .xap files for paid apps justify the piracy of Microsoft's WP7 OS?
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Because its completley and utterly different.
If your moaning because you cant post/download warez here, go away, there are other forums for that, XDA is not the place.
I'm not advocating piracy at all. I just don't understand the double standard, or how it's "completley(sic) and utterly different"
Sent from my SGH-i917 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App
I think this thread is useless. I mean, why will you complain about something that is almost a miracle, that DFT made for us? Didn't you like that we can now run almost all smartphones OS on our HD2?
Man, I think you should review about your questions...
On the contrary, we need gripe and complaint threads so we can piss and moan without cluttering up the real threads. Not like I would post a complaint... people here are ruthless.
And I agree. It's laughable that I can come to these forums and hack the crap out of my phone with pirated OS software but I can't find apps to go with it.
Saw a ROM thread shut down for stuff like this. Ridiculous considering the ROM itself is PIRATED AND STOLEN... btw ty DFT
I equate it to the term military intelligence... just don't make no sense.
Its in microsoft's best interest to let as many people experience WP7 as they can, because then eventually they would want their next device be an ACTUAL WP7 device.
In terms of policy, why fix something that aint broke? If MS had a problem, they would have had this forum removed a long time ago. But even after months, it still exists.
And since you are already posting from a WP7 device, I would say the question is, why would u post this here? no hostility intended, just wondering....
One answer to the question - and I'm not saying it's the correct one - is that paid for XAPs are, by definition, available for sale through commercial channels. Posting them on here for free is clearly theft.
A mobile phone OS is supplied with hardware in order to make the hardware operate. It is not available to buy as a standalone product - Windows 7 for PC is a purchasable product; WP7 for mobile is not a purchasable product.
Just because there is no specific price to a product doesn't necessarily mean it's free, but it's that bit more difficult to cry 'thief'.
Arguably MS has more to gain from the extended testing offered by this community and it seems to me that MS tend to talk more about 'not supported' than 'not allowed' when it comes to people using WP7 on HD2 devices.
Therefore ROMs are tolerated, warez are not.
It may be harder to prove legally, WP7 may be a product that isn't for sale publicly, and Microsoft might look the other way, but that doesn't mean it still isn't stealing. Wrong is wrong regardless how one spins it.
I am thankful to all those in this community for their efforts and achievements, and I am glad that Microsoft is allowing this to continue, but let's face it... if you want to hack up and redistribute someone else's intellectual property they spent years and millions developing, you should go to work for Microsoft or pay them for the rights to use it.
Fact is, to sanction one form of stealing and ban another is a double standard.
Keep up the good work all. More free apps.. down with greedy bastards!!
I would guess that if the site was seen to breaking the law, MS would come after it and the ROM's would be taken down. The mere fact that the site has been hosting MS roms for ages now (not just WM7) also suggests MS can either do little about it or don't want to. It has to be the latter but the OP still raises an interesting question.
bisoner said:
I would guess that if the site was seen to breaking the law, MS would come after it and the ROM's would be taken down. The mere fact that the site has been hosting MS roms for ages now (not just WM7) also suggests MS can either do little about it or don't want to. It has to be the latter but the OP still raises an interesting question.
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When cooking a WM ROM to put replace/use on a device already running WM you are basically modifying something that you already own, the WM OS.
Android is open source, and even though you still taking the someone else's extensive work with the open source and hacking it and using it, it typically is used in the same fashion, to replace an existing Andriod OS.
The Jungle, by Upton Sinclair, is public domain, and anyone can publish the text without royalties. It is, essentially, "opensource". However, it is illegal to photocopy and distribute my published edition of the book, with my artwork, my forewords and my apendixes filled with historical facts and data.
WP7 on an HD2 is different from all of these examples. It is ripping an OS from a device and distributing it illegally to others. If this was done with Windows 7 on a PC, no one would defend this. It would clearly be piracy.
Honestly, when I first heard of the WP7 port onto HD2, I thought it was cool and considered going that route myself, mostly because I loved the hardware. I'm not casting judgement on anyone.
I have read through many threads where mods came in and banned something that might be piracy.
There was a thread discussing the actual numbers of WP7 apps where a huge piracy debate ensued just because a screen shot showing the number of available apps might have also shown software that could be used to pirate software.
This comes up again in threads where device specific software is .xap'ed and made available to other devices.
It's a fuzzy line as to what XDA deems ok and what it will squash, eventhough I think the line of what is legal and what is not is far less fuzzy.
I brought the topic here, because this forum exists in it's entirety within that fuzzy gray area. I thought that maybe I was missing something, maybe MS ok'ed this, or maybe there was some mobile device OS exclusion that I was unaware of.
XDA is the way it is, I guess.
"sharing" paid apps is "piracy" and banned
"sharing" device specific apps is "research" and usually ok, even if they are paid apps elsewhere in the universe and are obviously used to entice buyers to specific handsets
"sharing" an OS is... ? "idk, stop asking," even if it isn't open source and can only be purchased with a device.
My 2 cents
From my perspective I would gladly pay Microsoft for WP7 for the HD2 if they would offer it. Just like I gladly pay for apps that are offered as such as well. The reason I think it is not a double standard to rip WP7 and not paid apps is evident in how Microsoft is handling the issue. They know that from a customer service standpoint is it ridiculous not to offer WP7 for the HD2. But like they said, the button layout doesn't quite work and I'm not sure they want to take the time and money creating support for the OS on the HD2.
Enter XDA: Microsoft thinks: Here's a group of folks that will do all that for us. So we lose a few bucks by not forcing people to buy the HD7 right now. Heck, people have always been pissed at us for doing that kind of thing anyway. Why don't we let these guys do their thing, keep the HD2 owners happy, and win some new customers with our sweet new OS. This way they never call us and we save time and money by not supporting the OS but we also look nice as we don't call them on it and ask them to stop.
And in my opinion, it's working. We baulked at Windows mobile compared to iOS or Android but MS has a good thing going with WP7. I'm interested.
And I trust that Microsoft need only ask and XDA would stop producing WP7 for HD2.
actually i really agree on what the OP brought up i mean its an amazing achievement and something that is mind blowing to have WP7, Android whatever your taste is on to our device but yeah i do think there is some sort of grey area in the piracy policy but without piracy where would we be? its a hate love thing i guess the bad thing about downloading Paid XAPs is that they werent meant to be downloaded illegaly and i bet all of us have done the crime, who here hasnt downloaded Windows 7 OS for your PC and run it illegaly? or XP or even MAC? we all do it yet its in a weird way acceptable but programs on the other hand seem to be viewed in a different way..i guess because an actual individual and not a REAL wall street company created these apps it hurts them more since i guess they expect to earn income and to some extent is what they do for a living..who knows..i guess thats my point of view on this...this isnt a useless thread is quite a smart question/topic on whats legal and whats illegal to do on here
while the OP theoretically makes a good point here's how it works practically:
*MS obviously doesn't give a **** because they've sent no C&D and they even give us keys when we say we're using an HD2
*This does not take any money away from MS because they won't sell us a WP7 license anyways
*No one actually is making ANY money from doing this EXCEPT wp7 developers.
*It is a gray area, and since there has been no C&D of any sort then it is totally different than cracking a paid app and distributing it, because the developers do care and do lose money and it is black and white
*W'eve seen these threads a thousand times and we're pretty sick of all the same arguments, that's why you're getting some vitriol, like that guy at the party who gets drunk and tells you the same "remember when I scored that touchdown?" story he's told you 5 gazillion times.
I agree. Posting Paid Apps that developers made is wrong. this is their way of living to gain an income. Besides if you wanted paid Xaps for free google search the name of the xap and put a sharing behind im sure you will come up with results.
CZARSUPERSTAR.
HD2
2 CLIQS
MYTOUCH 3.5
TMOBILE COMET
COBY KYROS TABLET
Agree 100% with orangekid.
Just want to add that MS itself has only to gain with this:
- They get money for each app bought and some services you use from them
- And guess what, they don't have to bother getting resources for supporting the HD2, as officially it is unsupported.
So, actually, everybody gains with WP7 in the HD2. Did you really think that MS was getting rich with the 10€ or so each WP7 license costs the manufacter?
It's all fun and games until someone is hurt. Nobody is being hurt or damaged. Although one might say that phone manufacters could be losing sales as people may buy an HD2 and run WP7 on it... But perhaps it is not significant enough...
On first blush, the "microsoft aint doing nothing about it so obviously it's ok" argument seems lame, but it may be somewhat valid. Maybe MS should get some props for allowing something like this to pass. I don't believe it's a matter of "not worth their time" or "nothing they can do about it". They shut down VistaTorrent, http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/2006/06/30/microsoft-delivers-cease-and-desist-order-in-a-frame/, when they were distributing a free, open to the public, beta version. They put a stop to the Chevron team. As someone said, they could probably just ask XDA and this forum would go away. Maybe they will some day, who knows.
Is it true that you can call MS and tell them you're trying to install WP7 on an HD2 and they will just give you a reg number?
munkeyphyst said:
On first blush, the "microsoft aint doing nothing about it so obviously it's ok" argument seems lame, but it may be somewhat valid. Maybe MS should get some props for allowing something like this to pass. I don't believe it's a matter of "not worth their time" or "nothing they can do about it". They shut down VistaTorrent, http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/2006/06/30/microsoft-delivers-cease-and-desist-order-in-a-frame/, when they were distributing a free, open to the public, beta version. They put a stop to the Chevron team. As someone said, they could probably just ask XDA and this forum would go away. Maybe they will some day, who knows.
Is it true that you can call MS and tell them you're trying to install WP7 on an HD2 and they will just give you a reg number?
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From many reports in the threads talking about reg keys users have said they told reps they were using an HD2 and were still given the key
munkeyphyst said:
ok fair enough...
Let me be more direct then.
How does the same policy that condemns the posting of .xap files for paid apps justify the piracy of Microsoft's WP7 OS?
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Click to collapse
1. When you buy a mobile phone, you cant choose a special OS for it (like Windows, Linux, Mac OS for a PC, the reason is that the software manufacturers don't do that because it is too complex, not everyone knows how to flash correctly a device) so you get an OS with it
2. The device manufacturers like HTC pays in advance the licence fees for the OS when selling the phone. So when you buy it, you pay automaticly the licence fee which is not so much then a licence for a regular pc. Android for exemple is free to use, for Windows phone/mobile the manufacturer pays normally 20$ for each device sold.
3. The device is already pre-installed
4. I called once microsoft and told them that I have a HD2 with WP7 and the agent told me that it is not supportet by them, but not illegal.