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I just want to start out by saying that this is in no way a knock at any developers, or Google, it's just a question I had. I'd figure it out myself, but I haven't had a chance to delve into Android development yet (too busy with other work) so I thought I'd ask some experts.
I love my Nexus One, and I'm a big fan of Android. I'm blown away how far it's come in such a short time, and how much potential I see in its future. One of the only areas I feel the phone is lacking, is in attractiveness of the OS and apps. I feel that people are drawn to pretty things, and it's one of the reasons that the iPhone is so popular. Apple puts a tremendous amount of effort into aesthetic design of their software, and it shows. From what I've seen so far, I feel like a lot of Android apps (or at least third party apps) are lacking in that design and polish, and in many cases seem to indicate that developers are taking the path of least resistance.
I don't think that Android is ugly whatsoever, but I do feel that most of the apps I've seen are not as pretty as they could be. Sure, the HTC widgets add a lot, but I'm talking more on a fundamental level of design, and I actually have a great example to illustrate where I think things should go.
The Gallery app. This is a beautiful work of design in my opinion. The design of the entire application is simple, yet elegant. I love the rounded, clean look of the icons, and the menus, and the way the pictures are displayed and how you traverse the application. To give a contrast, if I go into one of my favorite apps functionality-wise (Last.fm - who has a gorgeous website and 360 app), I'm totally turned off by the appearance. It's plain, and gray, and drab. It's just got those arrowed clickable areas, and that's about it. Seesmic, another great app, is also extremely drab and unappealing. It gives me a feeling of looking at an application created in Visual Basic 6 (if anyone has experience with this ha!). Heck, they just implemented multiple accounts, and instead of having a slick screen, it's just a list of accounts that probably took 3 minutes to implement. The moment I looked at the screen I thought to myself how this would be the perfect place for a Windows 7ish login screen; an enlarged view of your portrait with your info underneath that allows you to swipe back and forth to choose which account you want to use.
I know this is a long post, but I just wanted to illustrate my feelings. My question; is this a matter of Google not providing the proper toolsets, an abundance of armchair developers who don't have the resources to make pretty UI's/lack of professional developers, or just plain lazy developers?
Any insight would be appreciated. I feel that this is one huge component Google needs to focus on to be able to properly compete with Apple. I can understand in the past allowing the TPM's to customize their builds how they want them to look, but with the launch of the Nexus, I feel it's time for Google to step up to the plate and really focus on the design of their OS.
xSiraris said:
I just want to start out by saying that this is in no way a knock at any developers, or Google, it's just a question I had. I'd figure it out myself, but I haven't had a chance to delve into Android development yet (too busy with other work) so I thought I'd ask some experts.
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Click to collapse
i think you said it yourself, "too busy with other work"
well in terms of Google, one thing I've never regarded them for is design. look at their online presence. it's not all that attractive. functional and optimizable, yes. slick looking, no. but that's their business. Apple really concentrates on the 'feel' of total UX, but at the expense of personalization. Google is more about providing service, but at the expense of design.
that being said, the iPhone OS desktop is looking more and more boring to me all the time. I genuinely like the how Android desktop looks (except for maybe the notification bar).
as for apps, I think the rough edges around Android apps will disappear as Android gains market share. right now, devs don't have all that much incentive to concentrate on Android while iPhone is king. I'm sure inthe next few years it will even out (although I do expect the iPhone to dominate for a good while to come).
j.books said:
well in terms of Google, one thing I've never regarded them for is design. look at their online presence. it's not all that attractive. functional and optimizable, yes. slick looking, no. but that's their business. Apple really concentrates on the 'feel' of total UX, but at the expense of personalization. Google is more about providing service, but at the expense of design.
that being said, the iPhone OS desktop is looking more and more boring to me all the time. I genuinely like the how Android desktop looks (except for maybe the notification bar).
as for apps, I think the rough edges around Android apps will disappear as Android gains market share. right now, devs don't have all that much incentive to concentrate on Android while iPhone is king. I'm sure inthe next few years it will even out (although I do expect the iPhone to dominate for a good while to come).
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The OS itself isn't really the issue. I'm talking more the controls provided. I think they could be improved, and I feel they ARE improved in the Gallery app. I'd like to see that kind of design in more apps, as opposed to what I'm seeing in most now. There's certain standards of design that just are not found in most apps outside of the first party ones (I think maps, finance, gallery and the browser are all great looking apps, while Calendar, and Translate could use some work).
And Google may not have had to focus on design to this point, but if they want to go up against Apple, I think they will have to.
I think app wise, its due to Android being open & no one is saying yes or no to apps. Developers can slap a few sounds together & call it a soundboard, there's a new app in the market.
Apple, on the other hand, has the final say. If it doesn't look the way they want or up to their standards, they can turn it down. I bet if Apple just let anyone submit apps at any time, you'd see a lot of crap there too.
Its just a matter of having standards... no one is forcing Android developers to make a pretty app. As cool as it is having an open market, it would be that much better to have some sort of standards.
This just being my opinion of course... I have an iPod touch & ever since Android came out, I haven't bought an app from the app store. If Apple let go of the reigns a little, I think they would be so much better. But I don't like being told what I can & can't have on my phone, which is why my iPod is jailbroken.
Google could do a lot just by making their notification bar/widgets/etc black. This (imho) goes a long way to making android look more like a competitor in the smartphone arena.
Doesn't it also have to do with the "default" button style in Android? This might make no sense so sorry if it doesn't.
Go into calendar and choose New Event from the menu. There you see the "default" buttons for Android which are used throughout - the buttons for the time and date. The little grey ones with the slight gradient. I think that the Android SDK just has very limited built in design tools / default buttons to choose from that just make it uglier. I feel like I saw a demo of the iPhone SDK once and they had like a design screen where you could graphically design the UI and they had a bunch of objects to choose from that you could customize but they were all really nice looking.
Android doesn't seem to have anything like this - no "design" view or anything in the SDK and very limited built in design tools or default objects.
Part of the difference you're noticing is in he two SDKs. The iPhone app design is really locked down in a lot of ways. When building a GUI for the iPhone, you start out with Apple's default set of super shiny buttons so it's difficult to make an app that doesn't look pretty and cohesive. If you do manage to do so, your app isn't approved.
With Android, Google gives developers just a framework. Everything is minimalist and bare. This of course gives developers more freedom to build unique GUIs but like you said most don't and like others said, there is no moderation. Making a truly great GUI is a LOT of work and most devs are just engineers. Only the teams with lots of money hire designers and graphics artists. Both methods have their pros and cons
cboy007 said:
Doesn't it also have to do with the "default" button style in Android? This might make no sense so sorry if it doesn't.
Go into calendar and choose New Event from the menu. There you see the "default" buttons for Android which are used throughout - the buttons for the time and date. The little grey ones with the slight gradient. I think that the Android SDK just has very limited built in design tools / default buttons to choose from that just make it uglier. I feel like I saw a demo of the iPhone SDK once and they had like a design screen where you could graphically design the UI and they had a bunch of objects to choose from that you could customize but they were all really nice looking.
Android doesn't seem to have anything like this - no "design" view or anything in the SDK and very limited built in design tools or default objects.
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No one has commented on the Gallery buttons I referenced. I think these are much better looking than the controls found in other apps. If they were to use something more along those lines in other apps, I'd be much happier.
But I understand what is being said, and I hope Google does something about it. I appreciate the freedom they are giving to developers, but appearance counts, and if developers don't have the time or resources to make the pretty GUI's, then Google should provide the tools to help them do so.
I just had an idea that may actually help. One of the things third party developers are complaining about (I'm talking about the professionals here, not armchair) is that their apps aren't being seen, or bought, and getting lost in the shuffle. What if Google created an authorized/registered developer program, where a third party developer could register with Google. At this point, they would be held up to higher standards and practices, but Google would create a separate place on the marketplace, or some way to filter by registered/authorized developers.
The way it is now, everything is getting lost in the shuffle. This method would give the exposure the professionals want, it would improve the quality of apps on the marketplace, all while leaving the open market that exists today.
I agree. Sounds like a good idea--right now, even the most polished, best apps can easily get overlooked if they aren't spammed up on several tech/Android blogs. It's why it took me so long to discover, say, Home++
desktop app browser
also, an online desktop app catalogue would help, simply because there is not enough space on a small screen to display a lot of variety. I guess they want to keep everything on-phone, as opposed to iTunes where you have to be plugged-in to install apps, but they could do something where you choose an app from your desktop browser and it pushes a notification to your phone. then when you go to the notification, it brings you to the app in the market, where you can DL and install it.
this would preserve the ability to get apps on the go if you need them with the expanded view of a desktop, creating more visibility for the apps, without compelling you to connect your phone to your desktop.
S
j.books said:
also, an online desktop app catalogue would help, simply because there is not enough space on a small screen to display a lot of variety. I guess they want to keep everything on-phone, as opposed to iTunes where you have to be plugged-in to install apps, but they could do something where you choose an app from your desktop browser and it pushes a notification to your phone. then when you go to the notification, it brings you to the app in the market, where you can DL and install it.
this would preserve the ability to get apps on the go if you need them with the expanded view of a desktop, creating more visibility for the apps, without compelling you to connect your phone to your desktop.
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Click to collapse
Orrr you can just go to AndroLib.com, scan the app, and donwload it in the market!
Several reasons...
1. Google simply doesnt have a good visual design team or a good visual design lead.
The gallery app looks wonderful becuase it was made by cooliris. Not google.
I admit they have gotten better. The transition to home/apps and live wallpapers are great and have great visual appeal.Standard N1 UI w/a live wallpaper is better looking than iphone and just slightly behind a palm pre. Where as it was way behind in 1.6
So they obviously have tried to focus more on there visuals.
They still have some improvements to make but its always iffy since they dont have a track record for great visuals.
2. The visualtools arent uniform. Thats a good thing for Devs not needing to get "approved" for everything... But it does mean that Iphone apps are drawing from a pool of buttons/icons/layouts that were made by some of the visual people in the business.
3. Even without that the visual people on the Mac/Apple side of things are more talented. To be long winded theres a world of designers and coders. Few VERY few can do both well. Its become clear to me in a short time just how good Android devs are on addressing needs and issues. Heck even the OS experience changes becuase of there talents.
But they cant visually design worth a damned.
Very few apps on iphone even from the jailbreak community seemed as well made or intuitive. Even there hallmark cydia was utter crap. It could be apples closed system of course but just got a sense of clunkiness and low level winmo app making.
4. $$$$$$$
At the end of the day a company or App dev can make beautiful apps on iPhone with little gambling. Its easier to make money in the Apple store thus easier to hire quality visual people to give coders great layouts pieces to work with.
Not much incentive to go hire out some UI designer when you can slap together some easy photoshop stuff yourself.
If Fandango or Directv (just examples) hire some visual dudes to help make its app for iphone..then 6 months later for android the chances are really high hes going to see the lack of Apple given/mandated visuals and realize he has to do everything himself. Unless hes really dedicated hes not going to max out that potential hes going to slap together the best look alike he can.
This has and is happening regularly from what I understand.
Thats it in a nutshell.
It's been speculated that Android has more apps that actually work on Honeycomb tablets than does iOS on the iPad. This links talks about the growth of the Android Marketplace:
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/study_android_surpass_ios_app_count_soon
Does anyone know if this is true considering most iPhone apps will not run properly on the iPad, i.e.does not fill the screen?
There are bazillions of I pad specific apps so I don't know what to tell you.
I think one of the main things that constantly gets lost is the whole quantity vs quality discussion. Sure iOS has a ton of apps, but how many of them are actually unique and not serving the same purpose as another app out there?
When it comes down to it Android, and tablets in particular, aren't far off from having the same core apps that iOS has available to it. If anything they are more functional apps since Android makes a lot more available to devs.
I miss more iOS apps on my Xoom then Android app on my iOS devices. I also think the iOS apps has a bit higher quality.
They look and "feel" better. But none of them has widgets.
Sent from my MZ604 using XDA Premium App
streetmapp said:
I think one of the main things that constantly gets lost is the whole quantity vs quality discussion. Sure iOS has a ton of apps, but how many of them are actually unique and not serving the same purpose as another app out there?
When it comes down to it Android, and tablets in particular, aren't far off from having the same core apps that iOS has available to it. If anything they are more functional apps since Android makes a lot more available to devs.
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Click to collapse
True, but to play devil's advocate, you could also say that the pseudo-arbitrary selection process inherent to Apple's App Store limits useless apps a little bit. (Yes, I know there are thousands of 'fart apps' on their store as well.)
In the end, I think that not having the duplicate functionality clause helps the Android Market have a few more 'gems' than would be possible on the iOS App Store. Things like Tasker, Swype, and true replacement browsers (not using stock webkit engine--e.g. Firefox and Opera Mobile on Android) etc would not be allowed on the iOS App Store. However, due to not having the arbitration, we suffer from a (slightly to somewhat) less cohesive overall user experience and (sometimes) lower polish inside of applications.
Personally, I prefer the power and 'openness' that Android's philosophy yields. Many others, however prefer the somewhat-higher level of safety and coherence that Apple's approach yields.
Just because they 'work' on Honeycomb doesn't mean they're any good for a tablet... There are only a few apps I run that aren't tablet specific yet actually take advantage of the space because it's hard to screw that up... Trillian and TweetDeck come to mind immediately.
Elysian893 said:
Just because they 'work' on Honeycomb doesn't mean they're any good for a tablet... There are only a few apps I run that aren't tablet specific yet actually take advantage of the space because it's hard to screw that up... Trillian and TweetDeck come to mind immediately.
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Beat me to it. And I think you're absolutely spot on. I've found that 95% of my favorite Android phone apps run on my Xoom, but only 5% (or less) of those actually work the way that I would expect them to.
Remember, just because they do work, doesn't mean you care to use them.
I use 10 - 20 apps meant for Android that are not formatted for Honeycomb but provide the basic function. Good example would be Verizon Fios DVR app, only runs in portrait but does the job!
I think it's simply not true to say an app has to be formatted for HC to be useful.
Coming from an iPad to the Xoom, there's a small but significant group of apps that aren't present that I miss.
Truth is for me, most of the apps on my iPad were games (can live without) or things that I might on occasion run but weren't day to day needed.
Important ones are news reader (newer is ok, pulse is ok too) twitter client, remote desktop app.
Everything else I can live without if I have to, but there ARE definitely not more android tablet apps than iPad apps. Taking out the "it'll run on a tablet" aspect, just look in the market, 64 tablet apps. that's it.There's far more than that in the iTunes store that are iPad only or dual binary.
The discussion was including "It'll run apps" and by the way the 64 apps are only "Featured Apps".
I don't know if we can really tell how many apps are tablet specific/redesigned.
i think the next Honeycomb update should include an emulator for apps made to run on lower versions of android. Even if the graphic quality is ****e we should have the option.
jgrizz said:
i think the next Honeycomb update should include an emulator for apps made to run on lower versions of android. Even if the graphic quality is ****e we should have the option.
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We don't need this. This would be a terrible user experience.
The SDK already allows developers the option to make their app scale well to multiple different resolutions and devices. Nearly all developers have yet to implement this resolution scaling, therefore the apps don't scale well to the Xoom.
jwilker said:
Coming from an iPad to the Xoom, there's a small but significant group of apps that aren't present that I miss.
Truth is for me, most of the apps on my iPad were games (can live without) or things that I might on occasion run but weren't day to day needed.
Important ones are news reader (newer is ok, pulse is ok too) twitter client, remote desktop app.
Everything else I can live without if I have to, but there ARE definitely not more android tablet apps than iPad apps. Taking out the "it'll run on a tablet" aspect, just look in the market, 64 tablet apps. that's it.There's far more than that in the iTunes store that are iPad only or dual binary.
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Click to collapse
Those featured apps are deceptive. There are lots of Honeycomb apps out there that just don't get highlighted.
jwilker said:
Coming from an iPad to the Xoom, there's a small but significant group of apps that aren't present that I miss.
Truth is for me, most of the apps on my iPad were games (can live without) or things that I might on occasion run but weren't day to day needed.
Important ones are news reader (newer is ok, pulse is ok too) twitter client, remote desktop app.
Everything else I can live without if I have to, but there ARE definitely not more android tablet apps than iPad apps. Taking out the "it'll run on a tablet" aspect, just look in the market, 64 tablet apps. that's it.There's far more than that in the iTunes store that are iPad only or dual binary.
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Click to collapse
By my counting, I have more than 64 apps installed that run...like 76 actually...not including pre installed stuff/OS integrated...
Just because they aren't "Featured Tablet" doesn't mean they won't run
iPad's apps, for the most part, are more polished than Xoom's tablet based apps. But they've had a year head start. More apps for the iPad? More apps specifcally for iOS tablet than for Android tablets? At this point, probably.
One good thing about the xoom, though, is even apps that weren't made specifically for a tablet still look good, for the most part, on the xoom. Where most iOS apps made for iPhone look stupid at 2x size on the iPad.
jwilker said:
Coming from an iPad to the Xoom, there's a small but significant group of apps that aren't present that I miss.
Truth is for me, most of the apps on my iPad were games (can live without) or things that I might on occasion run but weren't day to day needed.
Important ones are news reader (newer is ok, pulse is ok too) twitter client, remote desktop app.
Everything else I can live without if I have to, but there ARE definitely not more android tablet apps than iPad apps. Taking out the "it'll run on a tablet" aspect, just look in the market, 64 tablet apps. that's it.There's far more than that in the iTunes store that are iPad only or dual binary.
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Click to collapse
Those 64 apps are apps that Google has hand-picked. There's more than that.
I think the market should add a tablet app filtering option to find the ones that aren't blessed by Google.
jwilker said:
Important ones are news reader (newer is ok, pulse is ok too) twitter client, remote desktop app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The xtralogic rdp client is terrific. A bit expensive, but terrific.
jwilker said:
Coming from an iPad to the Xoom, there's a small but significant group of apps that aren't present that I miss.
Truth is for me, most of the apps on my iPad were games (can live without) or things that I might on occasion run but weren't day to day needed.
Important ones are news reader (newer is ok, pulse is ok too) twitter client, remote desktop app.
Everything else I can live without if I have to, but there ARE definitely not more android tablet apps than iPad apps. Taking out the "it'll run on a tablet" aspect, just look in the market, 64 tablet apps. that's it.There's far more than that in the iTunes store that are iPad only or dual binary.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Check out team viewer, it's perfect on the xoom and it is completely free. Go to teamviewer.com and get the PC or Mac program and the android program, then game on.
Stop teh FlipFlop
rjoudrey said:
Does anyone know if this is true considering most iPhone apps will not run properly on the iPad, i.e.does not fill the screen?
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Click to collapse
A lot of you keep flip flopping on what you are measuring here. The op specifically lists the quote above as an example of only counting tablet specific apps. measuring by that standard, there are way more iPad only apps than Honeycomb tablet apps. For those of you who say just because it doesn't say it's not made for a tablet doesn't mean it doesn't work, I agree. By that measurement, all iOS apps work on the iPad, and they work exactly as expected because they are simply pixel doubled (Although as the op pointed out they don't completely fill the screen 100% when they are scaled).
Another point that has been raised is a qualitative measure of the apps in either store. Apple's App Store is a pretty clear winner here as well. This stems from two issues. First, the curated store versus free-for-all store. Second, device fragmentation. The later is more of a problem for the development side and thus requires dev's spend less time on "fit & finish" and more time tweaking their apps for the thousands of hardware variations. This is an issue that most dev's view as a problem for the android market (See link below). This problem also keeps some prominent dev's away from android all together (such as EPIC games). Looking at several apps that are available on both platforms, iOS apps not only look better, but in many cases some functionality has been gimped on the android app. There was a writeup about this recently to which I can't find but I was able to locate one of the screen capture comparisons of FaceBook from that article.
(due to forum rules I can't make these active links yet )
FaceBook Screen Shot:
wpuploads.appadvice.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/facebook.png
Dev Survey:
\/\/w\/\/.readwriteweb.com/mobile/2011/04/poll-android-fragmentation-issues.php
Don't get me wrong, I like several features about android, but when it comes to the Android Market versus App Store, iOS takes the cake.. or in this case the dough $$$. I have more android devices than I do iOS devices, However I have only purchased one app from the android market. I have an iPhone 4, iPhone 3Gs, iPad 2 (WiFi), Motorola Atrix (still sad about locked bootloader), HTC Inspire, Sony Xperia X10, HTC Aria (CM6), Samsung Captivate, and a Nexus.
Summary, In small portable devices like Smartphones and Tablets, Hardware and software working in concert is of greater importance than the PC of yester-year. That being said, for Android's license model to work like Microsoft's windows license model has for PC's, Google needs to have established hardware specification / form factor windows that can be reliably tested against. Secondly, they need to separate the core OS and the UI framework so they can allow vendors to customize their UI inline with the framework, which would allow Google to release an update to the core OS without the need to wait for the vendors to customize the core OS with their UI. Users could then update to the most current OS, and vendors can customize and tweak their UI to add new features of the new OS and release an updated UI when it's ready. Right now, the more consistent approach to iOS & Apple hardware is yielding better apps that are more profitable for dev's.
P.S. sorry about the run-on sentences
jondwillis said:
I think the market should add a tablet app filtering option to find the ones that aren't blessed by Google.
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Click to collapse
Agree completely. True there's (probably) more than those 64, not sure how to find them. But finding iPad only in iTunes is easy enough, especially from the device itself.
I think no matter how it's sliced, there's less for the xoom or tablets in general than there is for iPad.
I really hope that trend changes, I suspect it won't until honeycomb is released to the public tho
I was just browsing the tech section of news360 on my xoom and I found a REALLY interesting article from the the Examiner. It basically says that the app count is so low because over 40% of standard android apps SCALE PERFECTLY on honeycomb so app makers don't have to make their apps tablet specific. That brings the app count to 60,000! Why doesn't Google publish these statistics?
I tried to post a link but I don't have my eight posts yet.
Just Google: honeycomb 60,000
even if they scale perfectly many don't make use of the added screen estate and really aren't optimized. Even so finding any tablet optimized apps is a pain. The featured tablet section has a few but there is no way to sort them based on price or category which is really quite a shame
legion21 said:
even if they scale perfectly many don't make use of the added screen estate and really aren't optimized. Even so finding any tablet optimized apps is a pain. The featured tablet section has a few but there is no way to sort them based on price or category which is really quite a shame
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Click to collapse
Agreed. First thing Google needs to do is actually optimize the market for tablets. Make it easier to find stuff and let us actually rate and review apps while using our tablets. That would help all of us.
the google market hasnt been that impressive since i got my android last june which is why i installed appbrain to help but even that app isnt tablet friendly
I think theres more to making a tablet optimized app than scaling. Optimizing use of the larger proscessors or other hardware (when applicable), redisigning the UI to be compatible/useful on a tablet screen i.e using extra space to offer additional functionality and navigation (instead of things like having buttons in the center away from your thumbs or buttons that span the whole screen).
I recently saw an app "Qello", I think that is a good example of a well designed tablet app in appearance and functionality.
This is not a thread bashing the Xoom or Android. I love them both.
I have moved my company to Droid (1's) and Incredible, and fought the IPAD in the enterprise at every turn.
I have also worked hard to install Linux on every desktop I can, where ever I can.
My question is, where are we going?
Android is perfect for a small pocket device. Small screen, limited resources, touch, and hopefully extended battery life. Tweaking and Developing Android allows us to squeeze even more functionality out of our powerful pocket computers. Adroid makes our phones cool. It is the hackers switchblade.
However, with the tablet form factor, we are all attempting to take an embedded device, with a purposefully designed lean Linux installation, and patch it back to a full fledge desktop operating system. We are slowing undoing Android on Xoom and turning it into a Linux Desktop without a keyboard.
Some very skilled devs have placed Ubuntu on the Xoom. I was thrilled when I heard the news. My very next thought was... Wait. Full Chrome, Full Codec Support, full everything! Its all ready to use, in a small Xoom shape and size. However, Ubuntu has poorly designed touch interfaces for most apps, and most things require a keyboard. (or right click mouse)
So. My question is. Why not continue to develop Linux, any flavor, ( I like debs) and create great user interface, that runs on X, and a great GTK with big touch buttons, et, so that we can run already developed software?
Why are recreating the wheel? Isn't Android going to simply develop into a full Linux Distro fork, that diverts talent away from the whole?
….And Discuss....
Plain and simply.. Linux is not Android. Android is not Linux. One does this and the other does that. One is Google owned one is not. One is made for handheld devices while one is not. Comparing apples and bananas never works no matter what the situation may be.
Each has its own purposes.
I somewhat agree. I think its more like a comparison between Red Delicious Apples and Granny Smith. They are both apples.
Comparing a Windows 7 Phone and Android is Apples and Oranges because have a different underpinning.
Both run the Linux Kernel. Both run several GNU packages. It is true that they have different interface layers, and Android relies alot of Java (Although Linux (GNU) can and does run Java as well.
I guess that is my point. Most of what needs to be written to run on a Linux kernel (Like Android's) to make a great terminal device (Which really is what Android is) has already been written, and vetted, some software since the 1970's. Why rewrite it in Java, using the Android framework, making it incompatible with the larger Linux Ecosystem? Or, if Java is key to app portability between architectures, why change the java engine so that it isn't compatible with the Java we already run on our desktops?
Again, I'm thinking out loud, not argue, but because I think something is missing from the community plan? What if all of the time put into the different Phone ROMS on XDA (based on Android) was used to make a more compatible, and universal Linux for Tablets?
remote sessions
I use pocketcloud and splashtopHd all the time on my xoom, barely worth it on a phone form factor, but this way I have full desktop support with touch ui integrated and at the same time I have all the great things android offers over desktop systems as well if I'm off the grid.
From what I've read android is a base of Linux but from the point of programs and interaction its all google design. Which is why we can Ubuntu nativley but will have the issues the op mentioned for drivers an ui interface, but I imagine as touch becomes defacto we'll see drivers and ui 's designed with more touch orientation integrated...win8 already looks to be shapping up that way from the looks of it. So possibly we'll be able to run future versions of Linux distros on the xoom, so long as the specs still meet the requirements
I totally agree with your point of view, I hear ya. But, the idea of having Linux on the tablets rather than Android... isn't that a battle between the big companies as to what OS they want to support on their own devices? Motorola and HTC are two big companies and they choose to support Android on their devices all the way. I guess if there would be a company out there that would prefer Linux OS on their devices we could very well see this as an ultimate possibility. One never knows.
>But where are we going?
The only people who can answer that are Google. They've yet to articulate a comprehensive roadmap for Android. The only strategy thus far has been to throw out a freebie to vendors and let them adopt it as they will.
The problem is that what vendors want (differentiation through proprietary enhancements) isn't what the public want (uniform UI, cross-product interoperability). Add to that are gaping holes in basic functionality in Android, like peripheral support--printers, scanners, 3G modems, etc.
I suspect that Goog themselves don't really know. If they did, there wouldn't be overlapping efforts like the Chrome OS (which is apparently DOA for now). Rubin bud needs to figure it out soon.
Win8 beta in Sept will determine the extent of Windows' viability for the mobile space. From simple extrapolation of Win7's capabilities + touch GUI + ARM support, it's a relative safe bet that Win8 will have a big presence in tablets next year.
The picture for Android-on-tabs is more vague. ICS should clarify things a bit, one way or another.
e.mote said:
>But where are we going?
The only people who can answer that are Google. They've yet to articulate a comprehensive roadmap for Android. The only strategy thus far has been to throw out a freebie to vendors and let them adopt it as they will.
The problem is that what vendors want (differentiation through proprietary enhancements) isn't what the public want (uniform UI, cross-product interoperability). Add to that are gaping holes in basic functionality in Android, like peripheral support--printers, scanners, 3G modems, etc.
I suspect that Goog themselves don't really know. If they did, there wouldn't be overlapping efforts like the Chrome OS (which is apparently DOA for now). Rubin bud needs to figure it out soon.
Win8 beta in Sept will determine the extent of Windows' viability for the mobile space. From simple extrapolation of Win7's capabilities + touch GUI + ARM support, it's a relative safe bet that Win8 will have a big presence in tablets next year.
The picture for Android-on-tabs is more vague. ICS should clarify things a bit, one way or another.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ICE CREAM SANDWICH?
Sent from my Xoom using XDA Premium App
I think it is not so much recreating the wheel so much as trimming down and adapting.
X with gnome/kde is not currently a good fit for a touch screen only device. Even if the window manager could be adapted to work well for touch screen only, interaction with most applications would still be problematic. Getting application developers to go in a common direction is hard enough as is.... and you want to ask all of them to rewrite the apps to work in a touch screen environment? Still if you want to try this route you could get a meego or work in KDE embedded. The effort (as Nokia discovered, and Open Moko before them) is non trivial however.
Android, and by extension Android applications, are designed to work with a touch screen interface from the beginning. It is less work to extend the structure to support larger screens than the adaptation X based applications would have to go through.
Android is not a general purpose computing platform though. It was originally written to work in a cell phone environment, with the attendant limitations and advantages. I think this core concept has not changed with the introduction of the tablet. We are still dealing with a connected device whose primary purpose is the consumption of information. What I mean by this is that android is not meant for creation (such as creation of MS office documents, programming, photoshop, etc...) but consumption (playing games, reading mail, browsing the web, reading MS office documents, etc...)
Where I think Android should be going for the near future is refining and improving the ability to consume information:
- Make web browsing more robust, including html5
- Improve video decoding with better codec and container support.
- Make it easier to read documents on the device.
- improve resolution independence at the API level.
- Improve round trips from desktop to cloud to device and back. Make the device used neutral to the information being consumed. e.g. bookmark and open tab syncing in the browser. better dropbox like functionality for availability of files that have been worked on.
Where I want to see it going in the long run can be seen in a nascent form with the Atrix and the Lenovo U1:
- Based upon available resources (keyboard, mouse, monitor) shift from a touch screen interface to a conventional desktop interface. (extend what the Atrix does)
- Make it easy to extend the functionality of the core device by connecting it to resources. (extending the idea behind the Asus Transformer)
- In a perfect world I would like to see a full desktop OS run when requested and be able to use external CPUs (think Lenovo U1). In essence I would like the device to be able to be a boot disk for the user, connect it do a desktop for raw power, connect it to a laptop base for on the go functionality, and use just the phone/tablet for ubiquitous computing. This dream is still a few years from being practical though.
- Make the android OS an installable and user upgradeable OS just as desktop OSes are now. This is even further out but I can see a future where mobile device hardware and OS are separate. This might never come to fruition though due to the way carriers control the phone experience.
And tangentially we could see the Android platform espouse device centric ideals as seen in Japan currently.
- Use the phone as a payment system.
- Augment magazines and stores with tags to feed the phone contextual information.
To be honest I have not given it much thought. I am interested to see where Google is going with the platform however.
youngproguru said:
So. My question is. Why not continue to develop Linux, any flavor, ( I like debs) and create great user interface, that runs on X, and a great GTK with big touch buttons, et, so that we can run already developed software?
Why are recreating the wheel? Isn't Android going to simply develop into a full Linux Distro fork, that diverts talent away from the whole?
….And Discuss....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The main differentiator between Linux or other free 'nix-likes these days, and Android, is that Android enforces, encourages, and _guarantees_ a standardized uniform development platform, a single UI standard, standardized set of software in the platform, and a standardized user experience.
Linux et al guarantees none of this.
If you want those specific freedoms Linux offers you, then it is there, by all means. The beauty of having open devices like the Xoom and other devices with open bootloaders is you are free to make your choice.
I have a feeling that three to six months from now the whole picture will come to bare. We will have the "cloud" and chrome PC, Android phones, Android tablets, TVs, Google+, Google music all wrapped into one. Google is renaming blogger to Google blogs, picassa into Google photo.
It is scary a little but it seems like it is all coming together. It is almost there, each boundary has bumps but me thinks Google is trying to make it seamless.
JanetPanic said:
I think it is not so much recreating the wheel so much as trimming down and adapting.
X with gnome/kde is not currently a good fit for a touch screen only device. Even if the window manager could be adapted to work well for touch screen only, interaction with most applications would still be problematic. Getting application developers to go in a common direction is hard enough as is.... and you want to ask all of them to rewrite the apps to work in a touch screen environment? Still if you want to try this route you could get a meego or work in KDE embedded. The effort (as Nokia discovered, and Open Moko before them) is non trivial however.
Android, and by extension Android applications, are designed to work with a touch screen interface from the beginning. It is less work to extend the structure to support larger screens than the adaptation X based applications would have to go through.
Android is not a general purpose computing platform though. It was originally written to work in a cell phone environment, with the attendant limitations and advantages. I think this core concept has not changed with the introduction of the tablet. We are still dealing with a connected device whose primary purpose is the consumption of information. What I mean by this is that android is not meant for creation (such as creation of MS office documents, programming, photoshop, etc...) but consumption (playing games, reading mail, browsing the web, reading MS office documents, etc...)
Where I think Android should be going for the near future is refining and improving the ability to consume information:
- Make web browsing more robust, including html5
- Improve video decoding with better codec and container support.
- Make it easier to read documents on the device.
- improve resolution independence at the API level.
- Improve round trips from desktop to cloud to device and back. Make the device used neutral to the information being consumed. e.g. bookmark and open tab syncing in the browser. better dropbox like functionality for availability of files that have been worked on.
Where I want to see it going in the long run can be seen in a nascent form with the Atrix and the Lenovo U1:
- Based upon available resources (keyboard, mouse, monitor) shift from a touch screen interface to a conventional desktop interface. (extend what the Atrix does)
- Make it easy to extend the functionality of the core device by connecting it to resources. (extending the idea behind the Asus Transformer)
- In a perfect world I would like to see a full desktop OS run when requested and be able to use external CPUs (think Lenovo U1). In essence I would like the device to be able to be a boot disk for the user, connect it do a desktop for raw power, connect it to a laptop base for on the go functionality, and use just the phone/tablet for ubiquitous computing. This dream is still a few years from being practical though.
- Make the android OS an installable and user upgradeable OS just as desktop OSes are now. This is even further out but I can see a future where mobile device hardware and OS are separate. This might never come to fruition though due to the way carriers control the phone experience.
And tangentially we could see the Android platform espouse device centric ideals as seen in Japan currently.
- Use the phone as a payment system.
- Augment magazines and stores with tags to feed the phone contextual information.
To be honest I have not given it much thought. I am interested to see where Google is going with the platform however.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your vision for the future of android/tab computing is fantastic. I already have replaced my laptop for the type of on-the-road computing work I need to do...with my bt keyboard and mouse and the cloud, I am creating MS Word documents and printing when back in the office. It's a good start. I use my charging docks when I'm stationary so additional functionality from docking stations and connected peripherals would be welcome. I think the current size of the Xoom is optimal. It needs to stay small enough to haul around easily but big enough to be more than a toy or large phone.
It is already my favored way to consume information...I'm pretty happy with my browsing experience and have no real issues streaming music, video, reading news/books. I think that this will only get better.
>X with gnome/kde is not currently a good fit for a touch screen only device. Even if the window manager could be adapted to work well for touch screen only, interaction with most applications would still be problematic. Getting application developers to go in a common direction is hard enough as is.
It's the same with Win7. That Win8 will (reportedly) rectify this while Linux fiddles is the main weakness of open-source--getting everybody to agree on a direction. I expect that, as mobile computing diversifies, that Linux will, as before, follow Windows' lead.
>Android is not a general purpose computing platform though. It was originally written to work in a cell phone environment, with the attendant limitations and advantages. I think this core concept has not changed with the introduction of the tablet.
I agree with this.
>Where I think Android should be going for the near future is refining and improving the ability to consume information:
I disagree with this. Whereas the physical size of a smartphone is the main impediment, lack of an integral physical input device is the tablet's sole limitation in being a productivity device. This limitation is very surmountable.
On the demand side, looking at the app mix on the iPad should indicate that content creation on tablets have high demand. The clamor for Office-type apps is strong. The tablet may not yet be able to do heavy productivity, but it should be able to do light ones.
The impetus to productivity is, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the upcoming Win8. Ignoring its immense userbase for the moment, when a user has a choice between a tablet for consumption-only, and one that does both consumption and (light) creation, it's an easy choice. The smartphone killed the PDA/MP3 player/digicam/etc because it can do more than any one of these erstwhile devices.
More succinctly, Android doesn't have the luxury of a slow ramp.
>[various improvements for consumption]
I agree that these are probably what we'll see in ICS. They're incremental. I see them as insufficient in light of the upcoming competition.
>Where I want to see it going in the long run can be seen in a nascent form with the Atrix and the Lenovo U1:
This is where fragmentation rears its ugly head (as if it hasn't already). What you're referring to requires brand interoperability, which vendors are loath to do without a strong hand from the OS supplier. Google have yet to be that strong hand. To wit, both of the above examples only work within the respective vendor's product lines, and both are marketplace failures.
Fragmentation is the other issue Android needs to deal with. Other than the 18-month upgrade "pledge," I don't see much inclination from Goog to deal with this.
>- In a perfect world I would like to see a full desktop OS run when requested and be able to use external CPUs (think Lenovo U1).
>- Make the android OS an installable and user upgradeable OS just as desktop OSes are now.
Both of these are realizable with Win7 (on tablets) now, and I expect them to extend to Win8. The ideal desktop-tablet synergy I think will require better short-range connectivity, probably some flavor of UWB in the pipe.
View the thread : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1400110
edit : link removed
Not true and ive posten respons in the original thread.
Yes, is TRUE
So says you.
that's what I say, but it is mostly what you hear with your ears and see with your eyes : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1400110
It's an issue with Android's sound system. More info here: code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=3434
From the video, it appears that this relates to a particular app (mini piano), so in that case, I'm not sure why it's Google's responsibility to improve the responsiveness of a third party piece of software.
That said, there are some very basic reasons for why iOS will invariably be smoother and more responsive than Android almost 100% of the time.
Put simply, iOS and Android both began their respective development at totally different times. Android started development during a time when the market was saturated with keyboard-centric devices like Blackberry's and such. There wasn't a whole lot of touch-screen proliferation, and even then, those devices with touch screens were still very proprietary and basically none of them offered multi-touch. As such, Android was never originally designed for multi-touch screens; that kind of functionality is more of an evolutionary adaptation than anything else really. Android's core design principles focus on multi-tasking and cloud service connectivity in order to maximize productivity. That's why Android has always more effortlessly been good at both of those things.
iOS on the other hand was designed from ground up to be used on a multi-touch user interface. As such, iOS products have been more focused on being UI-centric, while other functions take a lower priority. Basically, when the user interacts with the screen of an iOS device, the system will drop everything it's doing (if need be) just to make sure that the UI runs smoothly. For example, say you try to interact with a webpage as it's loading on an iOS device. The device will actually stop loading the page, as long as you are touching the device to interact with it. As soon as you're no longer touching it, the page will continue to load. This is also why multi-tasking was more of an afterthought than a core principle with iOS. Apple could have easily implemented some form of multi-tasking right with their first iPhone, but considering the resource limitations at the time, that would have come at the cost of an interface that wouldn't have been as smooth or responsive.
So, to sum up:
Generally speaking, iOS will almost ALWAYS have a smoother and more responsive touch interface than Android has (unless Google basically rebuilds Android for touch screens from ground up).
That said, Android will almost ALWAYS be a better at multi-tasking and integrating cloud services than iOS (unless Apple decides to basically rebuild iOS from ground up with a bigger focus on those services).
Which is better than the other? Well, that's up to you really; it's totally subjective. If you want a simple to use UI which is smooth and responsive, then maybe iOS is better suited for you. If a more diverse ecosystem with endless customization options and very powerful multi-tasking beasts are important enough that you can accept a reasonable cost in the UI smoothness, then Android is your best bet.
Jade Eyed Wolf said:
From the video, it appears that this relates to a particular app (mini piano), so in that case, I'm not sure why it's Google's responsibility to improve the responsiveness of a third party piece of software.
That said, there are some very basic reasons for why iOS will invariably be smoother and more responsive than Android almost 100% of the time.
Put simply, iOS and Android both began their respective development at totally different times. Android started development during a time when the market was saturated with keyboard-centric devices like Blackberry's and such. There wasn't a whole lot of touch-screen proliferation, and even then, those devices with touch screens were still very proprietary and basically none of them offered multi-touch. As such, Android was never originally designed for multi-touch screens; that kind of functionality is more of an evolutionary adaptation than anything else really. Android's core design principles focus on multi-tasking and cloud service connectivity in order to maximize productivity. That's why Android has always more effortlessly been good at both of those things.
iOS on the other hand was designed from ground up to be used on a multi-touch user interface. As such, iOS products have been more focused on being UI-centric, while other functions take a lower priority. Basically, when the user interacts with the screen of an iOS device, the system will drop everything it's doing (if need be) just to make sure that the UI runs smoothly. For example, say you try to interact with a webpage as it's loading on an iOS device. The device will actually stop loading the page, as long as you are touching the device to interact with it. As soon as you're no longer touching it, the page will continue to load. This is also why multi-tasking was more of an afterthought than a core principle with iOS. Apple could have easily implemented some form of multi-tasking right with their first iPhone, but considering the resource limitations at the time, that would have come at the cost of an interface that wouldn't have been as smooth or responsive.
So, to sum up:
Generally speaking, iOS will almost ALWAYS have a smoother and more responsive touch interface than Android has (unless Google basically rebuilds Android for touch screens from ground up).
That said, Android will almost ALWAYS be a better at multi-tasking and integrating cloud services than iOS (unless Apple decides to basically rebuild iOS from ground up with a bigger focus on those services).
Which is better than the other? Well, that's up to you really; it's totally subjective. If you want a simple to use UI which is smooth and responsive, then maybe iOS is better suited for you. If a more diverse ecosystem with endless customization options and very powerful multi-tasking beasts are important enough that you can accept a reasonable cost in the UI smoothness, then Android is your best bet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dont forget to give credits to Andrew Munn as the source of your "reply"
which can be found here:
https://plus.google.com/100838276097451809262/posts/VDkV9XaJRGS
Also its not true that when you touch the screen on an iOS device every thing stops, at least not on my experience.. the page still continues to load, installation still continues and things still run in the background, simply put iOS has a better frame work for keeping 60fps on the UI at any given time, nothing is stopped or placed in real time as per several replies on that article.
I actually didn't know about this article. Thanks! Most of what I know comes from my Apple Fanboy friend, so we banter a lot. Maybe he read that article
There are still room for improvement for the touch interface. Hope it gets better on ICS update.
Jade Eyed Wolf said:
I actually didn't know about this article. Thanks! Most of what I know comes from my Apple Fanboy friend, so we banter a lot. Maybe he read that article
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It just so happens your words are exactly as the same on the article, massive coincidence eh?
I think the problem does not come from the music software. This is a problem with Android. There are very large application vendors musical (korg, IK, etc ...) that have failed them porting iOS> Android OS as this has a level of latency too high for the "Touch games."
In searching I found very interesting articles about it and even a letter to Google:
http://www.musiquetactile.fr/android-is-far-behind-ios/
http://www.musiquetactile.fr/more-thoughts-on-audio-latency-in-android/
http://www.musiquetactile.fr/open-letter-to-google-improve-android-for-music/
Of course this relates to audio latency, but Android also suffers from a general latency. the touch of a AndroPhone is less reactive than an iPhone. This is the only thing I blame my rating Galaxy.