Database Users

Interesting re: "full hardware accel" in ICS

Just a blog re: ICS enabling full hardware acceleration of the GUI. We've all figured it would make our tablets sprint but this is putting things in a new light so I figured I'd post it here.
Linky
I'm sure the programmers and people on top of Android out there knew this. It sort of worries me though. Keeping in mind, Apple is running a totally different system - it sort of makes me respect iOS more so, to know that such a smooth system exists within the limits of 256MB of Memory when we're going upwards of 512MB and still having 'issues'. Don't jump down my throat, I don't want iOS (or an idevice), I'm just sayin'.

Jesus. I've known for a long time that there is something wrong with the way Android accelerates stuff and the whole UI design paradigm, but that's just boneheaded o_o That begs the question though: who made the decision to implement acceleration in such a horrible way and why wasn't it designed properly from the get-go? Anyone who has the slightest experience in OpenGL programming would've been able to tell them they're doing it wrong.

What a stunningly stupid way to implement things.
Just goes to show how much difference it really makes when it comes to having experience in OS development...
I like Android, but this design choice was just... dumb.

FloatingFatMan said:
What a stunningly stupid way to implement things.
Just goes to show how much difference it really makes when it comes to having experience in development...
I like Android, but this design choice was just... dumb.
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Well, there are several shortcomings to Android exactly because of these kinds of brainfarts, like e.g. the permissions system is terribly sketchy and should've received a lot more Q/A. But now that it's released there's little Google can do about it without breaking compatibility as they didn't even plan for it to be extendable.
I do quite like Android, but it's too uneven to really feel professional or trustworthy. I just recently pondered about what I'd want from a future mobile tablet on my Google+ page and while I didn't mention it there, I feel like Win8 would've been in a terrific position for the OS on such a device if they didn't decide to remove traditional desktop from the ARM-version. I know Windows and Microsoft aren't popular here, but they've got a lot more experience with OS-development than Google and are a lot better at power-management design and acceleration of UI and its drivers, plus they've really put some real effort into security lately. Alas, with them scrapping traditional desktop from ARM-version Win8 won't cut it, either.

You guys should read Google's blog post. That article misses one huge point: the trade off. This was far from a bad implementation, it was just a very different one. If you read the article you would know that ios freezes if you hold your finger on screen while loading a large list, Android does not. Android balances the CPU threads for ui display and data processing somewhat equally, while ios grants utter priority to their ui display thread . Basically, if the ui display thread is busy, data processing stops. Android is the winner, it is ios that will now be limited in speed with this configuration until it is optimized for new hardware much like how Android currently works!

autom8r said:
You guys should read Google's blog post. That article misses one huge point: the trade off. This was far from a bad implementation, it was just a very different one. If you read the article you would know that ios freezes if you hold your finger on screen while loading a large list, Android does not. Android balances the CPU threads for ui display and data processing somewhat equally, while ios grants utter priority to their ui display thread . Basically, if the ui display thread is busy, data processing stops. Android is the winner, it is ios that will now be limited in speed with this configuration until it is optimized for new hardware much like how Android currently works!
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Uh, it is a bad implementation. You can have both a good implementation AND still balance priority of both the rendering queue and application threads, they are not mutually exclusive.

WereCatf said:
Well, there are several shortcomings to Android exactly because of these kinds of brainfarts, like e.g. the permissions system is terribly sketchy and should've received a lot more Q/A. But now that it's released there's little Google can do about it without breaking compatibility as they didn't even plan for it to be extendable.
I do quite like Android, but it's too uneven to really feel professional or trustworthy. I just recently pondered about what I'd want from a future mobile tablet on my Google+ page and while I didn't mention it there, I feel like Win8 would've been in a terrific position for the OS on such a device if they didn't decide to remove traditional desktop from the ARM-version. I know Windows and Microsoft aren't popular here, but they've got a lot more experience with OS-development than Google and are a lot better at power-management design and acceleration of UI and its drivers, plus they've really put some real effort into security lately. Alas, with them scrapping traditional desktop from ARM-version Win8 won't cut it, either.
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Click to collapse
If Microsoft is dumb enough to kill desktop mode on ARM, that really destroys the Win8 tablet market outside of running on Intel chips, which puts them at sub-par graphics. I suppose the only hope then is if AMD steps in and I'm not all that much a fan of AMD, though they have tried to make good efforts in the mobile arena with their A-series chips and having decent GPUs.
I suppose I'll keep an eye on this and see what Microsoft does. Given their lack of intelligent decision making of late (ie. far dumber than their normal stupidity), I don't hold out much hope. Pity, Win8 tablets were looking strong, too.

Gnoop said:
If Microsoft is dumb enough to kill desktop mode on ARM, that really destroys the Win8 tablet market outside of running on Intel chips, which puts them at sub-par graphics. I suppose the only hope then is if AMD steps in and I'm not all that much a fan of AMD, though they have tried to make good efforts in the mobile arena with their A-series chips and having decent GPUs.
I suppose I'll keep an eye on this and see what Microsoft does. Given their lack of intelligent decision making of late (ie. far dumber than their normal stupidity), I don't hold out much hope. Pity, Win8 tablets were looking strong, too.
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The Metro-interface is aimed for touch-based devices, including tablets. Desktop-mode doesn't work too well on such. The problem is that Win8 tablet could serve as BOTH a mobile device AND a desktop computer if Microsoft played its cards right and thus reserve a very nice spot for itself.

WereCatf said:
The Metro-interface is aimed for touch-based devices, including tablets. Desktop-mode doesn't work too well on such. The problem is that Win8 tablet could serve as BOTH a mobile device AND a desktop computer if Microsoft played its cards right and thus reserve a very nice spot for itself.
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Indeed. Being able to handle both of those would hook me in pretty easily.

Reactivity : Galaxy Note -VS- iPhone 4

View the thread : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1400110
edit : link removed

Not true and ive posten respons in the original thread.

Yes, is TRUE

So says you.

that's what I say, but it is mostly what you hear with your ears and see with your eyes : http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1400110

It's an issue with Android's sound system. More info here: code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=3434

From the video, it appears that this relates to a particular app (mini piano), so in that case, I'm not sure why it's Google's responsibility to improve the responsiveness of a third party piece of software.
That said, there are some very basic reasons for why iOS will invariably be smoother and more responsive than Android almost 100% of the time.
Put simply, iOS and Android both began their respective development at totally different times. Android started development during a time when the market was saturated with keyboard-centric devices like Blackberry's and such. There wasn't a whole lot of touch-screen proliferation, and even then, those devices with touch screens were still very proprietary and basically none of them offered multi-touch. As such, Android was never originally designed for multi-touch screens; that kind of functionality is more of an evolutionary adaptation than anything else really. Android's core design principles focus on multi-tasking and cloud service connectivity in order to maximize productivity. That's why Android has always more effortlessly been good at both of those things.
iOS on the other hand was designed from ground up to be used on a multi-touch user interface. As such, iOS products have been more focused on being UI-centric, while other functions take a lower priority. Basically, when the user interacts with the screen of an iOS device, the system will drop everything it's doing (if need be) just to make sure that the UI runs smoothly. For example, say you try to interact with a webpage as it's loading on an iOS device. The device will actually stop loading the page, as long as you are touching the device to interact with it. As soon as you're no longer touching it, the page will continue to load. This is also why multi-tasking was more of an afterthought than a core principle with iOS. Apple could have easily implemented some form of multi-tasking right with their first iPhone, but considering the resource limitations at the time, that would have come at the cost of an interface that wouldn't have been as smooth or responsive.
So, to sum up:
Generally speaking, iOS will almost ALWAYS have a smoother and more responsive touch interface than Android has (unless Google basically rebuilds Android for touch screens from ground up).
That said, Android will almost ALWAYS be a better at multi-tasking and integrating cloud services than iOS (unless Apple decides to basically rebuild iOS from ground up with a bigger focus on those services).
Which is better than the other? Well, that's up to you really; it's totally subjective. If you want a simple to use UI which is smooth and responsive, then maybe iOS is better suited for you. If a more diverse ecosystem with endless customization options and very powerful multi-tasking beasts are important enough that you can accept a reasonable cost in the UI smoothness, then Android is your best bet.

Jade Eyed Wolf said:
From the video, it appears that this relates to a particular app (mini piano), so in that case, I'm not sure why it's Google's responsibility to improve the responsiveness of a third party piece of software.
That said, there are some very basic reasons for why iOS will invariably be smoother and more responsive than Android almost 100% of the time.
Put simply, iOS and Android both began their respective development at totally different times. Android started development during a time when the market was saturated with keyboard-centric devices like Blackberry's and such. There wasn't a whole lot of touch-screen proliferation, and even then, those devices with touch screens were still very proprietary and basically none of them offered multi-touch. As such, Android was never originally designed for multi-touch screens; that kind of functionality is more of an evolutionary adaptation than anything else really. Android's core design principles focus on multi-tasking and cloud service connectivity in order to maximize productivity. That's why Android has always more effortlessly been good at both of those things.
iOS on the other hand was designed from ground up to be used on a multi-touch user interface. As such, iOS products have been more focused on being UI-centric, while other functions take a lower priority. Basically, when the user interacts with the screen of an iOS device, the system will drop everything it's doing (if need be) just to make sure that the UI runs smoothly. For example, say you try to interact with a webpage as it's loading on an iOS device. The device will actually stop loading the page, as long as you are touching the device to interact with it. As soon as you're no longer touching it, the page will continue to load. This is also why multi-tasking was more of an afterthought than a core principle with iOS. Apple could have easily implemented some form of multi-tasking right with their first iPhone, but considering the resource limitations at the time, that would have come at the cost of an interface that wouldn't have been as smooth or responsive.
So, to sum up:
Generally speaking, iOS will almost ALWAYS have a smoother and more responsive touch interface than Android has (unless Google basically rebuilds Android for touch screens from ground up).
That said, Android will almost ALWAYS be a better at multi-tasking and integrating cloud services than iOS (unless Apple decides to basically rebuild iOS from ground up with a bigger focus on those services).
Which is better than the other? Well, that's up to you really; it's totally subjective. If you want a simple to use UI which is smooth and responsive, then maybe iOS is better suited for you. If a more diverse ecosystem with endless customization options and very powerful multi-tasking beasts are important enough that you can accept a reasonable cost in the UI smoothness, then Android is your best bet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dont forget to give credits to Andrew Munn as the source of your "reply"
which can be found here:
https://plus.google.com/100838276097451809262/posts/VDkV9XaJRGS
Also its not true that when you touch the screen on an iOS device every thing stops, at least not on my experience.. the page still continues to load, installation still continues and things still run in the background, simply put iOS has a better frame work for keeping 60fps on the UI at any given time, nothing is stopped or placed in real time as per several replies on that article.

I actually didn't know about this article. Thanks! Most of what I know comes from my Apple Fanboy friend, so we banter a lot. Maybe he read that article

There are still room for improvement for the touch interface. Hope it gets better on ICS update.

Jade Eyed Wolf said:
I actually didn't know about this article. Thanks! Most of what I know comes from my Apple Fanboy friend, so we banter a lot. Maybe he read that article
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It just so happens your words are exactly as the same on the article, massive coincidence eh?

I think the problem does not come from the music software. This is a problem with Android. There are very large application vendors musical (korg, IK, etc ...) that have failed them porting iOS> Android OS as this has a level of latency too high for the "Touch games."
In searching I found very interesting articles about it and even a letter to Google:
http://www.musiquetactile.fr/android-is-far-behind-ios/
http://www.musiquetactile.fr/more-thoughts-on-audio-latency-in-android/
http://www.musiquetactile.fr/open-letter-to-google-improve-android-for-music/
Of course this relates to audio latency, but Android also suffers from a general latency. the touch of a AndroPhone is less reactive than an iPhone. This is the only thing I blame my rating Galaxy.

Homemade Tablet? An Idea.

Ok, so here's my dilemma. I want a convertible tablet pc. Problem is though, I think all of the ones on the market are poop. They either run android (I don't see the point still) and iOS, or are clunky and rediculously expensive. But I had a extremley bright idea. Buy whatever laptop I like, slap a touchscreen on that *****, and be happy. Keep in mind that as a poor college student with no job, I will probably never be able to afford this
1. Take apart laptop completley, Rip out the green bullcrap.
2. Mod case to be suitable as a convertible...or just look cool.
3. Rverse USB port to face inside
4. Close USB off from the outside
5. Get a USB Touchscreen conversion kit, which im sure come in many different flavors (Capacitive, Multitouch, Resistive), or better yet use a connector designed for computer internals, making #3 and #4 useless.
6. Add 3rd party accelerometer for Poitrait/Landscape orientation
7. Find a suitable hinge (or make one) and replace it
8. Boot laptop, install drivers for touchscreen and accelerometer
9. Pat myself on the back for custom making a tablet PC?
In my opinion the hardest part would be modding the case to be suitable as a convertible tablet, which can't be too hard. I have access to MIG/TIG welders, sheet metal cutters, grinders, ect. and I know people who know how to use them, so working with metal shouldn't be too dificult. In fact, I probably could just build a case myself from scratch. I also have alot of experience with plastic, so that's not a problem although I'd prefer to use metal for structural parts.
Touchscreen conversion kits seem to be all over the internet with a quick google search, and it shouldn't be too hard to find high quality capacitive touchscreen panels.
Walcom Bamboo Stylus because I'm a G
Accelerometers that work with windows I don't know about, but it cant be too hard Amirite? You can find ANYTHING for sale on the internet.
If I do do this however it will probably be in the summer (when I have a job). The only probelm I might have is the internals, seeing as I've never handled computer internals before. My brother did build his computer though, and I have a friend who also builds computers. It dosen't seem too hard compared to the other stuff like modding the case. While the laptop is dissasembled I'd probably put the parts in ziplock bags to keep them away from dirt and debris while I'm not using them. As long as I'm careful I don't thinkim going to mess anything up.
Good idea or no?

Good idea. Just keep in mind that the whole thing would be much heavier than a regular tablet, so holding it in hand would be difficult.
I have seen an EEE PC modded with a touchscreen, but the keyboard part was still there.

Just get a transformer lol...
What is wrong with Android? What is it you need to do that it won't?
My other idea would be to tell you most android devices are capable of running linux too?
Sounds like alot of work..and there are suitable models on the market, but if you wanna do it?
By the time you get around to it I wonder where technology will be...
PS ziplock bags? NO! Get some static bags..ziplocs are crazy static-charged! Honestly though, sounds like you are a good deal away from being able to deconstruct and reconstruct a laptop..the integrated circuits are ridiculously small and fragile..
PPS The hardest part might be actually getting the accelerometer sensors to function..which is where android comes in..you have to actually write some code into your operating system that will recognize and react accordingly withing the right parameters in your code..devs on this sight have problems with accelerometers that otherwise worked on a stock rom on OEM machines, god knows what it would take to get one working on a machine that never intended to have one by design?
That is all

What's old is new again
It's funny we did something similar a few years ago to build PC's into cars and trucks. For that application and at that time it made sense. Today we essentially just make custom docks for COTS tablets so that they integrate with the car.
If you're opposed to Android and other mobile OS's my suggestion is to start looking around craigslist for convertible tablet/laptops like those from HP and Dell or look for a cheap HP slate. I've seen gently used Slates going for around $200-300 and they run windows 8 reasonably well. I've seen convertibles close to that price as well.
Unless you are just dead set on a fabrication project i'd strongly suggest taking advantage of off the shelf hardware and mass production pricing and spend your extra time and money learning how to get the most of of those components.
If you do go ahead with this then weight and cost will be your biggest issues. I think a better twist on this would be to figure out how to make a transformer type of dock for other popular tablets. If you can make them well and make them cheap then sell a few and buy what you really want.

The reason I don't like android is because It's not a desktop OS. I'll be building this tablet-y thing for graphics/image editing, word processing and a little bit of gaming in between and I'm not 100% sure about android graphics programs. I like to keep it simple and use MS Paint, then GIMP if i need a more powerful program. I'm also a windows fanboy and it's what I've been using ever since I was 2... I also like to build things.
I hate the transformer prime. I want a convertible tablet, not a tablet and a little dock thingy...won't serve my purposes.
I didn't know Ziplock bags are staticy by nature. Thanks for the tip.
As far as the accelerometer, I don't know much about them but if it's super difficult I'm probably not going to bother with it. I'll maybe install a switch?

It's hard to beat windows for functionality but you might check out paint.net as a free replacement for paint.
Over all though I get the idea that you're a little in over your head on this.
Sent from my HTC Flyer using XDA App

LexusFman said:
I hate the transformer prime. I want a convertible tablet, not a tablet and a little dock thingy...won't serve my purposes.
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Have you seen the Eee Pad Slider?
Also, Adobe photoshop for android = $10
https://market.android.com/details?id=air.com.adobe.pstouch&hl=en

LexusFman said:
The reason I don't like android is because It's not a desktop OS. I'll be building this tablet-y thing for graphics/image editing, word processing and a little bit of gaming in between and I'm not 100% sure about android graphics programs. I like to keep it simple and use MS Paint, then GIMP if i need a more powerful program. I'm also a windows fanboy and it's what I've been using ever since I was 2... I also like to build things.
I hate the transformer prime. I want a convertible tablet, not a tablet and a little dock thingy...won't serve my purposes.
I didn't know Ziplock bags are staticy by nature. Thanks for the tip.
As far as the accelerometer, I don't know much about them but if it's super difficult I'm probably not going to bother with it. I'll maybe install a switch?
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Click to collapse
Dude, I've got photoshop, an office suite, and tons of games, I'd never have to touch a PC again..I am a graphic designer by trade! I can even watch hulu (something not supposed to be capable of on android platforms), I've got a nice stylus and a full qwerty keyboard and mouse- I'm working on the OG transformer not the Prime, as far as I can tell the Prime was pushed too quickly and has issues with all of it's radios due to the metal shell..the TF101 does not have these issues, and the TF700 (basically the prime with the GPS and radios fixed and better resoultion) is available if you don't want to go for the OG transformer.
Seriously sounds like you're trying feverishly to open a can of worms to get a windows tablet when in reality there is no need and windows is given a run for it's money with the new ICS android on the way. Trying to unlock a windows phone after unlocking a whole bunch of Android devices would quickly turn you off of Microsoft as an OS IMO, that's what made me an Android fanboy (I was a windows guy previously, now I'm leaning more and more towards linux/android for their open source code user-friendly programability). But, if you are determined to do something the hard way = the expensive and labor/time-consuming way, no one is going to stop you
Just remember- in the world of technology things are done: Right, Cheap, and/or Fast. BUT, you can only choose two..

I've done this already with a eeePC 700.
1. The resistive touchscreen. You'll need a stylus for that.
2. Typing with a stylus is horrible.
3. It was heavy. Even when it was only 7inch screen. The battery made it heavy. (but I had 9hours of battery life)
4. You couldn't navigate the boot menu (without an external keyboard)
5. Resistive touchscreen is crap for drawing, because you still want to support your hand on the screen while drawing, which you couldn't do.
6. Moving Items around sucked (no drag and drop)
and many more.
I used it in my bed, for browsing. was good enough, until the touchscreen cable snapped. (I didn't have an external keyboard, so I had to open the tablet, connect the keyboard, and navigate the boot menu when I had to)
Hope this helped. Though it was fun to build it and use it, it's not what you would call an 'every day' tablet

romitkin said:
Good idea. Just keep in mind that the whole thing would be much heavier than a regular tablet, so holding it in hand would be difficult.
I have seen an EEE PC modded with a touchscreen, but the keyboard part was still there.
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I don't think it would be much heavier, in fact I think the idea is perfect for modification of a netbook. It would probably be cheapest. since so much case modding is required and so many enclosure fabrication resources are handy, to put together a frankenstein out of 2 or 3 broken netbooks. Find someone who smashed the screen of one netbook, another one who fried the board of theirs, find a total-loss broken tablet PC (like dropped in lake michigan level of total loss so it will cost pennies) and get the ribbon cable and swivel element from there. I think if this idea is applied to a netbook it would be excellent in size and weight as well as functionality. And with the x86 version of android's progress, it could even be running android like a tablet in screen out mode, and change to webtop mode when its swiveled. Put a netbook mobile broadband card in there, many netbooks have open card expansions under the screw-out panels underneath, if not you would have to choose between wifi or taking the wifi expansion out in favor of a mobile broadband card, and certainly make sure that the card is supported by your wireless provider if you choose to go the mobile broadband route. With verizon or sprint you will most likely have to acquire a mobile broadband card out of a netbook that was originally sold by the company, but be sure to check and make sure the MEID is clean before paying anything for one, if the seller defaulted on a contract they used to acquire it, you might as well flash the thing to cricket or metroPCS and use them as your mobile broadband carrier. With either wifi or mobile broadband, as well as bluetooth, don't forget the antenna! yeah that thing you have to unhook from the other side of the card to take it out, you need that. (oh yeah, bluetooths are included as expansion cards sometimes too, if so you could always remove this to make room for the mobile broadband if you don't use bluetooth. I sure don't and probably wont until they drop the rediculous prices of non-audio bluetooth interfaces to acceptable and competative levels.)
That project actually sounds pretty freakin cool, the type of thing I'd do if I wasn't already swamped with projects. Definetly keep us posted if you decide to go through with it, as I pointed out, if you build it from netbook parts it should be well within your budget, netbooks run much cheaper then notebooks already, but a netbook is comperable in power to most current android devices and thus is suitable to handle most things you'd use a tablet PC for, just not high powered stuff like compiling code or rendering animation or playing 3d online games.
Edit: I'd like to add and point out that as a regular user of an acer netbook running ubuntu, it is wise to refrain from excessive multitasking, the atom had to sacrifice a bit of things we've become accustomed to in notebooks to meet the low power consumption and operating temperature requirements, and a lot of those things are things that mostly benefit multitasking. You will not be happy if you try and run a jillion programs at the same time.
That being said ubuntu's new primary UI, I forget what it's called evolve or something like that, it is an excellent UI for netbooks, perfectly space-optimized, especially in the vertical range which gets filled quick on lil netbook screens. I'm not sold on it and prefer to go with gnome or xfce on desktops and normal-sized notebooks, but it is top-notch on a netbook. I'd also recommend not messing with the accelerometer at first and including it later as it may be a pain to implement correctly in comparison to the limited amount of functionality it brings to the table. I'd rather have something that works personally that I can make additions to then pull my hair out trying to throw everything in the first time right.
---------- Post added at 10:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 AM ----------
Will_nonya said:
It's hard to beat windows for functionality but you might check out paint.net as a free replacement for paint.
Over all though I get the idea that you're a little in over your head on this.
Sent from my HTC Flyer using XDA App
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Have to LMAO @ this comment. If users would ever actually push developers to release for the linux platform, especially hardware manufacturers (which is ridiculous since all they would have to do is release their code open source, or even just parts of their code and the community would do the rest. Doesn't matter much tho, it's mostly crappy chinese hardware that isn't supported by linux, and their HQs more then likely don't speak enough english to be able to request anything, beleive me I've tried to contact MSI before.... most hardware worth running is fully supported tho)
But point is, I feel like it is extremely cumbersome whenever I'm forced to use windows, apart from trying to use unsupported hardware or cross-platform software (although wine and mono have made GIGANTIC leaps in usability). I pretty much never have to deal with drivers, updates to all software happens automatically, it's become so self-maintaining that I'm ashamed of how lazy of a linux user I've become. When I actually do have to do something even remotely advanced I have to think for a minute about it. Usually the only thing that really requires a lot of getting under the hood that I ever have to do is when I set up my audio-production setups which is even a lot easier now that they have dedicated repositories for them, and when set up correctly the real time preemptable kernel will run circles around any windows or OSX setup latency-wise. I was pulling lower latency with computers recording with ardour, and sequencing/synthesizing/sampling with seq24 amSynth, and qsampler, 5 years older then any PC I would test it against running windows with Reason and Protools. the Jack audio drivers that allowed software to plug audio inbetween applications directly across the PCM was just icing on the cake.
Windows is good software, but linux has certainly surpassed it by leaps and bounds. Windows still rules for gaming because of directX and industry unwillingness to port to linux, but the period of time right after Microsoft declared it was removing directX support from XP on further releases saw linux catch up with windows for a little while as they rushed wine to support the newest directX making it actually possible to actually run new releases under windowsXP even. Curses microsoft, foiled again! And off topic, but furthermore, I can't believe people still pay so much money for that god damn talking paper clip, openoffice.org ftw!
As I said windows isn't bad software, I said before in these forums actually that if windows ran a microsoft controlled repository to distribute all software for windows through, like linux, it would have similarly non-existant problems with viruses. Having people go around the wild-west of the internet downloading and installing programs from there without even thinking about it is just asking for the malware and adware problems windows experiences. Windows is good software, linux is just much better software.

Too complicated...
On a second thought how about moding a cheap Tablet with better parts. Is it even possible like are the parts such as a processor, camera, or the radio chip available for tablets and phones.

Why dnt you get a transformer?

In my opinion, it would just be better to settle for an table, prices are gonna drop really soon. The market for Eee PC's alike has diminished since the release of the ipad.

This is a wonderful opinion. The things mentioned are unanimous and needs to be appreciated by everyone.

A lot of things to doo, better start with a simple tablet and try to upgrade it if possible... dont know if its possible btw.

I did something almost like this.
Took apart a dirt cheap acer aspire one with a small 8 GB SDD.
Small 280 Atom 1.6GHz cpu and cheap intel GMA gpu.
Inverted the screen
Added a extra 512MB ram and inserted a 16GB SD card.
My battery however did not stand up to the task so i ordered a 9 cell pack.
It ran quite stable with 6 days standby or 12hours of heavy usage.
The lack of a accelerometer however made it a pain for quite a few games.
But i did have a vague plan to get value's from it into the android OS using a AVR and a few other cheap parts.
Many manufacturers still produce cheap atom notebooks like these.
But hardware specs have gotten better and better, so you should be able to pick one up for cheap still.

http://www.axiotron.com
Soooo 2008...

I'm doing this with an old pentium 3 thinkbook. I know its not really that great of a computer but it at least redeems it as a usable device.

sounds interesting will looking forward for it....

Good Idea!

You are stubborn. And your W7 desktop is full of sh...

Yeah, I'm talking to you
I'm really surprised at some of the scorn poured on Metro on WP8.
What I've noticed:
When I browse on the Metro IE, my screen is clutter free!
I have social feeds, direct to tiles that I can see.
What I notice when I go back to W7, and observe others.
Peoples desktops are full of junk/work in progress/files they haven't "dealt with". Almost like a notice board, waste paper bin. Stickie note collector.
I used to work this way. I also used to use email as my reminder/work scheduling system.
I've stopped being bogged down by email by originally using Evernote, then moved to OneNote, as I like the sync via Skydrive (WP7 of course) but also that each section is just a file on a drive.
My email is very low, it doesn't stress me. I have a better GTD style "worflow".
All my files are filed, either on Skydrive or SharePoint. Clutter no more.
My kids don't do email. At all.
I've also noticed at work that it is programmers who don't like change. Which to me seems odd, as they are the smart people? But there are different types of smart, and concepts, futures etc sometimes seem to illude them.
Ramble ramble. I think Windows 8 is on the right path.
Ironically I've found W8 to work better on my desktop than on the Dell Duo tablet I've tried it on. Perhaps this will change when the hardware is more targetted, but the hot corners were inconsistent and I clammered for mouse.
I want pictures, fast links, social feeds and real information on my desktop. Not the contents of my bin.
I'm very curious how this will play out. Another Vista, or Windows 7+ ?
Time will tell. But I really _love_ W8. I hate going "back" to W7 now.
Are naysayers sticks in the mud, or reflective of how the masses will take W8.
Intruiging times.
(For the guy saying he will go to Mac, thats funny as Launchpad is similar to the Metro start screen. Recent updates have changed scroll direction to match touch.)

hear hear!

Right On.
http://www.winsupersite.com/content...s-8-consumer-preview-call-common-sense-142476

very well said, even though i disagree with some of your points, your statement was very well thought out.
personally after using W8, i was dying to get back to W7, for some of the same reasons you enjoyed W8.
I'm a little OCD about my start screen being aesthetically pleasing, so i keep it very clean and nice, with only the recycle bin, libraries, and 3 programs against the left side. Link if you care. i will occasionally dump a file or folder on the desktop as it is the easiest way to access said file or folder at the time, until i can put it "away" or am done with it. Not dissimilar to getting what you're working on IRL out of your desk drawer, and leaving it out while you use it (IMHO) all my stick notes go on my android phone, on the screen right of home. i don't email much, when i do i use my phone as my notification. if i need to write one i'll jump on my tablet or gmail's web interface: i have no need for it to be integrated with my PC. i also fancy myself as a causal rookie photographer, so i take a lot of pictures and don't always toss out the not-the-best ones. i don't necessarily want those scrolling through my homescreen. I also don't really use social media, so that's not that applicable to me.
and having used Lion after using W8CP, i do like it, but i actually found launchpad pretty pointless.
i have nothing against the metro theme or design language, i simply think the execution of the UI for non-touch is badly done. things like the charms and hot corners make it un-intuitive and confusing to existing, non-geek users. multitaking is too difficult for your average joe "I click E to get to 'E'nternet, right?" to comprehend easily. all your points are valid, but i think you're over-estimating the average consumer.

I'm not stubborn as you think I am. Just to make you understand in your simple language. I just don't use my desktop PC to read emails or share every freaking thing I do on FB or twitter unlike you and few others. On internet browser I have to switch among multiple tabs fast Then switch to software like adobe dreamweaver, PS, FTP client, etc. I can keep all open and reduce the shell size so I can follow all work at once and lot faster, its easier on my high res big screen and on metro ui I can't resize any metro apps cause my desktop thinks that its a f..king tablet. What you can't see is MS is trying to sell their tablets and phones to their existing desktop users. Which is unfair to us.
And in metro UI it kills most time finding the opened tabs. Hell with it now It has many flaws but you wouldn't care cause software.. sorry "app" like Ms paint is the only thing you have learned to use so far and of course you can see all you social feeds on the "homescreen" itself.
Sorry, just being polite.
Sent from my R800i using Tapatalk

I thought I might add........
I think people misunderstand the difference between Apps and Applications/Programs, I'm not sure your suppose to see them the same way.
Applications/Programs traditionally are used on the desktop. They are fully featured software for the doings of complicated things. The desktop interface in Windows 8 is still the place to do such work, that's why it's still there. High Power Activities such as PhotoShop, Video Editing, Big Release Games etc
Apps, these are small quick programs for doing smaller less intense and demanding jobs. The job of an App is to perform simple low power task such as mp3 playing, picture viewing, Calendar Entries, Emails.
The differences maybe subtle at first glance but it only takes a moment to realise the significance. Only in recent years have Pc's become powerful enough to do multiple small tasks at the same time properly, there was no real power difference between watching a video and editing one. Now there is a clear gulf between the 2 power states & it makes complete sense for an operating system to reflect it.
Laptops have had different "power states" for sometime now, they conserve battery life for normal tasks but gives you an option to turn them up if and when its required. Cpu's always used to run at full blast all the time. Most cpu's Idle themselves when not required now, some even overclock themselves depending on demand. I could go on, the Tegra 3 uses a separate underclocked core when being used for low power consumption applications.
The Metro UI simply bundles all those small things that we do everyday into one easy place. None of these tasks demand huge attention so a live tile is all that's required to display what you need to know at a glance. Then you hop back to your desktop to continue with the real tasks at hand.
Theres my 27 cents worth.

m0nkf1sh said:
I thought I might add........
I think people misunderstand the difference between Apps and Applications/Programs, I'm not sure your suppose to see them the same way.
Applications/Programs traditionally are used on the desktop. They are fully featured software for the doings of complicated things. The desktop interface in Windows 8 is still the place to do such work, that's why it's still there. High Power Activities such as PhotoShop, Video Editing, Big Release Games etc
Apps, these are small quick programs for doing smaller less intense and demanding jobs. The job of an App is to perform simple low power task such as mp3 playing, picture viewing, Calendar Entries, Emails.
The differences maybe subtle at first glance but it only takes a moment to realise the significance. Only in recent years have Pc's become powerful enough to do multiple small tasks at the same time properly, there was no real power difference between watching a video and editing one. Now there is a clear gulf between the 2 power states & it makes complete sense for an operating system to reflect it.
Laptops have had different "power states" for sometime now, they conserve battery life for normal tasks but gives you an option to turn them up if and when its required. Cpu's always used to run at full blast all the time. Most cpu's Idle themselves when not required now, some even overclock themselves depending on demand. I could go on, the Tegra 3 uses a separate underclocked core when being used for low power consumption applications.
The Metro UI simply bundles all those small things that we do everyday into one easy place. None of these tasks demand huge attention so a live tile is all that's required to display what you need to know at a glance. Then you hop back to your desktop to continue with the real tasks at hand.
Theres my 27 cents worth.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thank you so much for your reply. actually youre the first one who put in some logic to your words over here. Now my problem is for people who have a high end quad core processor, ram, gpu, etc for doing 10 things at once and not one at a time. small things like music player doesnt require to take up the full screen with 100's of "buy" button.
App is supposed to be small and on windows desktop they could just keep it as tiles or widgets on screen and keep the rest of desktop as it was or might changed the look to match the metro ui just keep the real desktop pc experience alive.
Right now I have to switch to the desktop version of IE to watch videos on youtube just because windows ph and tablets don't support flash hence no flash support for new IE on prime desktop. Of course after few days I can download other metro browsers when they release which might support flash but everything looks very messed up right now on W8.
It's clearly going to be like another Vista release which was still okay but this is utter crap cause I dont want to use my desktop as my tablet.

Widgets/gadgets appeared with vista but weren't commonly adopted, I think this was due to a lack of interested by programmers, the financial incentive came from the phone market a little later. My personal issue with the gadgets was clutter (the original posters comments prevail).
Flash support is another story. Adobe own Flash & the people putting together HTML5 as a standard want to use an Open Source base for streaming web video. In general this seems like a good idea apart from the wide use of flash already on sites like Iplayer, Youtube etc and they are radically effected by this & they will either choose to adopt or not. I think they probably will, a lot of Youtube videos are already compatible & if they start forcing all videos to be HTML5 compliant the transition shouldn't be too painful.
Remember Windows 8 is Beta, early adopters will always pay a price for progress.
Personaly I don't normaly use IE & therefore Im forced back to the Desktop for Internet Browsing anyway.

Just as widgets I see the same with metro, devs will have lack of interest and eventually win desktop PC will reach a saturation point just like wp7 though I hope not.
But see what MS is doing right here they want to increase the wp7 apps number to increase so they've introduced metro ui as prime desktop so devs those who works on PC software can later just scale it down for wp7 too. And Eventually that'll never happen cause most of the devs are just into productivity and not into designing metro apps which focuses more on looks, the devs are not ready to proceed that yet. How can I be so sure? Well WP7 is right in front of you.
Sent from my R800i using Tapatalk

bornotty said:
Just as widgets I see the same with metro, devs will have lack of interest and eventually win desktop PC will reach a saturation point just like wp7 though I hope not.
But see what MS is doing right here they want to increase the wp7 apps number to increase so they've introduced metro ui as prime desktop so devs those who works on PC software can later just scale it down for wp7 too. And Eventually that'll never happen cause most of the devs are just into productivity and not into designing metro apps which focuses more on looks, the devs are not ready to proceed that yet. How can I be so sure? Well WP7 is right in front of you.
Sent from my R800i using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Some of the main app suppliers for phones have already confirmed they will be porting their apps to windows, Firefox has also confirmed they are working on a Firefox metro ui interface. There are now thousands of companies who specialize in Apps alone & make a healthy living from it. The Metro UI is written in Html5 which is to become the web standard therefore compatible on all devices(in theory) and based on a common computer language that a lot of Devs already know. Microsoft, although this is probably yet to be confirmed, were saying that the Windows 8 Store will give a higher percentage of the sales revenue back to the developers than Google or Apple too.
So if you already have Apps you sell it would be easy enough to convert it, the conversion would be to the future web standard code, that you already know how to use and the extra market place, which is going to be installed onto millions of computers, giving you a good market coverage, will pay you more money for your work than the markets you already use. The only problem that I see is that its an offer that's too good to be true for Devs. But Equally, knowing Microsofts marketing strategy history would suggest that "Cut Throating" your competitors for market share wouldn't be such a big leap for them.
Although I could keep debating this, time will tell. The truth is, Apps are probably here to stay in one form or another, they have already proven themselves on Mac, Android, Wii, Xbox live Arcade, PlayStation etc. Windows late adoption only shows that its inevitable. I think your quite right that Microsoft has made a point of putting it main stage in order to encourage adoption & I think it will work.
Windows 8 is not Vista. Vista didn't work very well & was far too demanding for the existing systems people owned. They also hid it away so it could be a surprise. That why Windows 7 had such a large Beta launch and why Windows 8 has just had an even larger one. Windows 7 ran much faster than Vista & Windows 8 is faster again.
Anyways I quit the debate here, ill just be answering peoples problems if I can help from now on. My last piece of advice "One should float like a leaf on the river of life, & kill old lady!"

Metro is amazing i love it but the only problem is its not a desktop os. For laptops it amazing I say not good for desktop because nowaday desktop is a Family computer not a Personal computer. But you can do some mods and remove metro and everythings fine.
Also Windows 8 uses a lot less ram and is a hell lot faster

The Phablet is the way to go, just few thing to improve...

I'm an Apple fan, I own a macbook pro retina, and I JUST SELL my iPhone 5, when I purchased my note 2 to use it as Android R&D device coz it's part tablet and also its a phone, I still in love with iOS pollite design and Siri still by far the best voice assistant, but w/o network the e iPhone loses its advantages over android, the first month I discovered how nice is to play games on a 6" screen rather that 4" on the iPhone5 (playing the same game Asphalt 7, the note 2 won by far as gaming platform. but not enough to make me swap of preffered device, but then arrived SwiftKey 4 with it outstanding input that make me left away the iPhone5, it's amazing fast, while most time on iPhone I used Siri to type large text input, on the note I can do it best w/o talking a word and with much less correction, that's it's results of a combination of two factors : SwiftKey and the screen size, I have very large hands so the on screen keyboard on the iPhone5 was always a pain in the ass and the autocorrects doing its things was too annoying to still on the iPhone5, now I also discovered I can navigate on flash websites and interact with sites using the hover feature that helps a lot on sites w/o mobile front end, also the superior personalization it's a bonus.
The only things I think there still miss on OS/X is the iTunes, Google must creta it's own "iTunes" samsung Kies it's an example but fells short alongside iTunes.
Other things I miss from iOS are: Siri precission, the media player search feature, play list management, experience still far superior.
And of course a good working MTP driver for OSX, samsung Kies it's a shame by own right on OSX, but If we can't have a Google/Android common "iTunes-like" application at least a good universal MTP driver for OSX it's a must, hopefully I have AirDroid helps a lot but I still need some fast and easy transfer thru USB for large files or when I don't have a speedy network available.
To take over Apple/Microsoft reign Google must as priority build an desktop version of Google play not just a Web front end, but a desktop client with full media player features capable to open our ebooks gdrive, Update/Sync any brand of Android device via USB.
Also Google needs to push on a desktop (cloud less) OS, while Chrome OS maybe good for most people, really don't have much future, given mobile/tablet OSs are taken most popular task as word edition, spreadsheet, basic graphic design, etc but to provide a real alternative we need a powerful desktop OS loaded with our favorite Power Application as FULL PHOTOSHOP, AUTOCAD/MAYA /CATIA and alike, but those applications already exist on windows and some on OSX, but why aren't ported to an strong powerful os like Ubuntu? EASY Answer there is no programming environment easy to migrate those tons of code, so We Need Free Linux equivalent to Visual Studio and Xcode but not things as short as mono, or ****s as current Linux compiler for objective C, we need Google sponsor or internally developed Migration environments for both Linux and by extension for android, with library equivalent to MFC and Cocoa, plus rigorous Objective C and C# Compilers to binary rather than VMs, all well and rigorous maintained and free of unnecessary GPL traps that may keep developers away to support it.
So, we need:
*Pollite system UI as fast or faster as they add new features.
*GooglePlay desktop client similar to iTunes and universal to any Android device.
*True alternative Desktop OS for non Cloud usage - Power Commercial Apps, with Developer Tools friendly for Apple/Microsoft targeted code migration.
I'm happy with my 6" device but I assume still people can't handle this and may prefer other sizes, so no problem with current fragmentation.
Sent From my Un-Rooted GT-N7100

AcostaJA said:
I'm an Apple fan, I own a macbook pro retina, and I JUST SELL my iPhone 5, when I purchased my note 2 to use it as Android R&D device coz it's part tablet and also its a phone, I still in love with iOS pollite design and Siri still by far the best voice assistant, but w/o network the e iPhone loses its advantages over android, the first month I discovered how nice is to play games on a 6" screen rather that 4" on the iPhone5 (playing the same game Asphalt 7, the note 2 won by far as gaming platform. but not enough to make me swap of preffered device, but then arrived SwiftKey 4 with it outstanding input that make me left away the iPhone5, it's amazing fast, while most time on iPhone I used Siri to type large text input, on the note I can do it best w/o talking a word and with much less correction, that's it's results of a combination of two factors : SwiftKey and the screen size, I have very large hands so the on screen keyboard on the iPhone5 was always a pain in the ass and the autocorrects doing its things was too annoying to still on the iPhone5, now I also discovered I can navigate on flash websites and interact with sites using the hover feature that helps a lot on sites w/o mobile front end, also the superior personalization it's a bonus.
The only things I think there still miss on OS/X is the iTunes, Google must creta it's own "iTunes" samsung Kies it's an example but fells short alongside iTunes.
Other things I miss from iOS are: Siri precission, the media player search feature, play list management, experience still far superior.
And of course a good working MTP driver for OSX, samsung Kies it's a shame by own right on OSX, but If we can't have a Google/Android common "iTunes-like" application at least a good universal MTP driver for OSX it's a must, hopefully I have AirDroid helps a lot but I still need some fast and easy transfer thru USB for large files or when I don't have a speedy network available.
To take over Apple/Microsoft reign Google must as priority build an desktop version of Google play not just a Web front end, but a desktop client with full media player features capable to open our ebooks gdrive, Update/Sync any brand of Android device via USB.
Also Google needs to push on a desktop (cloud less) OS, while Chrome OS maybe good for most people, really don't have much future, given mobile/tablet OSs are taken most popular task as word edition, spreadsheet, basic graphic design, etc but to provide a real alternative we need a powerful desktop OS loaded with our favorite Power Application as FULL PHOTOSHOP, AUTOCAD/MAYA /CATIA and alike, but those applications already exist on windows and some on OSX, but why aren't ported to an strong powerful os like Ubuntu? EASY Answer there is no programming environment easy to migrate those tons of code, so We Need Free Linux equivalent to Visual Studio and Xcode but not things as short as mono, or ****s as current Linux compiler for objective C, we need Google sponsor or internally developed Migration environments for both Linux and by extension for android, with library equivalent to MFC and Cocoa, plus rigorous Objective C and C# Compilers to binary rather than VMs, all well and rigorous maintained and free of unnecessary GPL traps that may keep developers away to support it.
So, we need:
*Pollite system UI as fast or faster as they add new features.
*GooglePlay desktop client similar to iTunes and universal to any Android device.
*True alternative Desktop OS for non Cloud usage - Power Commercial Apps, with Developer Tools friendly for Apple/Microsoft targeted code migration.
I'm happy with my 6" device but I assume still people can't handle this and may prefer other sizes, so no problem with current fragmentation.
Sent From my Un-Rooted GT-N7100
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
google play music i think is what you wantt
Sent from my KFTT using xda app-developers app

Hi
So you got a 6' Note2? Mine is 5.5 and wish it was 6 XD
Regards,
Axelman
Sent from my N-7100 using XDA-Developers app

Axelman8 said:
Hi
So you got a 6' Note2? Mine is 5.5 and wish it was 6 XD
Regards,
Axelman
Sent from my N-7100 using XDA-Developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A 6 foot Note 2 would be nice.

You don't need a Desktop client to move files nor do you need a speedy network. You need the included USB cable and your fingers.
I just fixed a few of your problems and I didn't charge a thing!

I for one am actually glad that android doesn't have a required to get stuff on the phone iTunes clone. I hate the hell out of iTunes. And that's coming from an long time iPhone user.
If I want my files/music on the phone I just drag and drop it on the phone.
Download anything with the phones browser anywhere you want. That's one of the strengths of android OS.
Also, with itunes you can only add stuff to your phone if you are at home. With my note I can do it on any machine w/o hassle

I didn't say a Clone, but to offer an better experience than with Samsung Kies
Sent From my Un-Rooted GT-N7100

AcostaJA said:
I didn't say a Clone, but to offer an better experience than with Samsung Kies
Sent From my Un-Rooted GT-N7100
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just curious, why are you even using kies? I tried it once and it sucked and realised I never actually needed it in the first place lol
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So, we need:
*Pollite system UI as fast or faster as they add new features.
*GooglePlay desktop client similar to iTunes and universal to any Android device.
*True alternative Desktop OS for non Cloud usage - Power Commercial Apps, with Developer Tools friendly for Apple/Microsoft targeted code migration.
I'm happy with my 6" device but I assume still people can't handle this and may prefer other sizes, so no problem with current fragmentation.
Sent From my Un-Rooted GT-N7100[/QUOTE]
Have you seen the mycolorscreen website?
You can freely browse the play store online and purchase / download an app which will push to your device next time you turn on the WiFi / Mobile data
There are experimental ports of Ubuntu for the note right now
Also look into the video user "coldfustion" did on YouTube titled "Galaxy note 2 replaces the PC" excellent stuff
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