Related
He makes some good points.
Android Is As Open As The Clenched Fist I’d Like To Punch The Carriers With
MG Siegler
Sep 9, 2010
This past weekend, I wrote a post wondering if Android was surging in the U.S. market because Apple was letting it? The main thought was that by remaining exclusively tied to AT&T, Apple was driving some users to choose Android, which is available on all the U.S. carriers. In the post, I posed a question: if it’s not the iPhone/AT&T deal, why do you choose Android? Nearly 1,000 people responded, and a large percentage focused on the same idea: the idea of “openness.”
You’ll forgive me, but I have to say it: what a load of crap.
In theory, I’m right there with you. The thought of a truly open mobile operating system is very appealing. The problem is that in practice, that’s just simply not the reality of the situation. Maybe if Google had their way, the system would be truly open. But they don’t. Sadly, they have to deal with a very big roadblock: the carriers.
The result of this unfortunate situation is that the so-called open system is quickly revealing itself to be anything but. Further, we’re starting to see that in some cases the carriers may actually be able to exploit this “openness” to create a closed system that may leave you crying for Apple’s closed system — at least theirs looks good and behaves as expected.
Case in point: the last couple of Android phones I’ve gotten as demo units from Google: the EVO 4G and the Droid 2, have been loaded up with crapware installed by the carriers (Sprint and Verizon, respectively). Apple would never let this fly on the iPhone, but the openness of Android means Google has basically no say in the matter. Consumers will get the crapware and they’ll like it. Not only that, plenty of this junk can’t even be uninstalled. How’s that for “open”?
And this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Earlier this year, Verizon rolled out its own V Cast app store on some BlackBerry devices. This occurred despite that fact that BlackBerry devices have their own app store (App World). From what we’re hearing, Verizon is also planning to launch this store on their Android phones as well in the future. Obviously, this store would be pre-installed, and it would likely be more prominently displayed than Android’s own Market for apps.
Does V Cast have some good content? Probably. But most of it is undoubtedly crap that Verizon is trying to sell you for a high fee. But who cares whether it’s great or it’s crap — isn’t the point of “open” supposed to be that the consumer can choose what they want on their own devices? Instead, open is proving to mean that the carriers can choose what they want to do with Android.
It’s too bad, but there is now a very real risk that the carriers are going to exploit the open system Google set up in order to create a new version of the bull**** proprietary ecosystems that they had before the iPhone came along and turned the market on its side.
And it’s not just Verizon, it’s all the carriers. One of the great features of Android is that you can install apps without going through an app store, right? Well, not if you have an a Motorola Backflip or a HTC Aria running on AT&T — they’ve locked this feature down. How? Thanks to the open Android OS.
Oh, and how about tethering? It’s one of the truly great features of Android 2.2, right? Well, not if you have a carrier that doesn’t want to support it. Google has to defer to them to enable their own native OS feature. It’s such an awesome feature — in the hands of Google. Once the carriers get their hands on it — not so much.
Speaking of Android 2.2, you know it’s out there right? You’ll be forgiven if you don’t because a whopping 4.5 percent of you Android users are currently running it, according to Google’s dashboard. And again, that’s not Google’s fault, that’s all the carriers. Incredibly, over 35 percent of you still aren’t even running any version of Android 2.x. It’s pathetic.
Apple gets crap for not supporting phones that are three years old with OS updates — the open Android system can’t even upgrade phones that are only a few months old in some cases — again, all thanks to the carriers.
The excuses for why this is run rampant. They need to tweak their custom skins, they need to test the new software, etc. It’s all a bunch of garbage. This is an open platform and yet you’re more restricted than on Apple’s supposedly closed one.
What happens when Verizon won’t update your phone to the latest greatest Android software — not because they can’t, but because they want you to upgrade to a new piece of hardware and sign the new two-year agreement that comes along with it? The game remains the same.
My point is not to bash Google — what they’ve created is an excellent mobile operating system. My point is that the same “openness” that Android users are touting as a key selling point of the OS could very well end up being its weak point. If you don’t think Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile, and Sprint are going to try to commandeer the OS in an attempt to return to their glory days where we were all slaves to their towers, you’re being naive.
“Open” is great until you have to define it or defend it. I’m not sure Google can continue to do either in this situation.
And before all of you pros storm the comments with how great it is to root your Android phones, consider the average consumers here. They are the ones being screwed by this exploitation of “open.” Anyone with the desire to do so can fairly easily hack an iPhone too. Open is not a reason to choose Android + carrier vs. iPhone + AT&T.
Update: Oh, and one more great example Michael Prassel reminded me of in the comments — do you want Skype on your Android phone? Well, I hope you have Verizon because otherwise you won’t be able to install it. “Open.” We’re only going to see more of this, not less.
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MG Siegler is a piece of trash. All his articles about Android are flame-bait garbage.
Look for his other gems such as:
Is Android Surging Only Because Apple Is Letting It?
http://techcrunch.com/2010/09/05/apple-android/
Wait, So 20 Phones On 4 Carriers Outsold 1 Phone On 1 Carrier? Shocking.
http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/02/iphone-android-sales/
Clearly he's gone off the deep-end and is upset that Android has surpassed his oh-so beloved iphone. So now he results to attacking Android like a 3 year old.
I no longer read Tech Crunch. And you should too if you want unbiased news, which you obviously won't get from this Apple fanboy flamer.
Pure trash.
Paul22000 said:
MG Siegler is a piece of trash. All his articles about Android are flame-bait garbage.
Look for his other gems such as:
Is Android Surging Only Because Apple Is Letting It?
http://techcrunch.com/2010/09/05/apple-android/
Wait, So 20 Phones On 4 Carriers Outsold 1 Phone On 1 Carrier? Shocking.
http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/02/iphone-android-sales/
Clearly he's gone off the deep-end and is upset that Android has surpassed his oh-so beloved iphone. So now he results to attacking Android like a 3 year old.
I no longer read Tech Crunch. And you should too if you want unbiased news, which you obviously won't get from this Apple fanboy flamer.
Pure trash.
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Even if he is an iphone lover, this particular post has some validity. The carriers really are screwing android over. My brother recently bought a Droid X with verizon and asked me to help him root cause he has absolutely no clue on how to do it. He wanted tethering because verizon, like ATnT is charging extra if you want to use tethering natively. So I went a head and root his phone and the phone is nice by all means, but V-Cast was an annoying piece of sh*t that pops up NO MATTER what when you connect your phone to your PC. For users like you and I who do know how to root and reap the benefits then its no problem because we can just ADB remove everything we dont like. But what about for people like my brother? They are stuck with ****ware and functionality like tethering that SHOULD be basic and free, but are forced to pay for if they want to use it. My 2cents, go figure.
Paul22000 said:
MG Siegler is a piece of trash. All his articles about Android are flame-bait garbage.
Look for his other gems such as:
Is Android Surging Only Because Apple Is Letting It?
http://techcrunch.com/2010/09/05/apple-android/
Wait, So 20 Phones On 4 Carriers Outsold 1 Phone On 1 Carrier? Shocking.
http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/02/iphone-android-sales/
Clearly he's gone off the deep-end and is upset that Android has surpassed his oh-so beloved iphone. So now he results to attacking Android like a 3 year old.
I no longer read Tech Crunch. And you should too if you want unbiased news, which you obviously won't get from this Apple fanboy flamer.
Pure trash.
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That might be true (I haven't read his other pieces), but he's spot-on here. The fact that many (MANY) Android phones don't have any planned upgrade paths to Android 2.2 (some are still running Android 1.6!) simply because the carriers or phone manufacturers say so is quite telling. On the other hand, someone with an original iPhone, which is just turning three years old, can update their OS to 4.0 and enjoy at least some of the new features the platform has to offer.
At its core, Android is quite open. I can download the source for Android 2.2 right now, build it and run it on any ARM-compatible device without repercussion. Not so for iPhone OS. However, the experience that users actually care about is practically indifferent from its competitor and theoretically worse because carriers have much more sway in controlling it than AT&T (or any other carrier that receives it) does on the iPhone. (Verizon's future app store is a case-in-point example, especially if it "replaces" Android market on the devices that will be getting it.)
Zephyron said:
But what about for people like my brother? They are stuck with ****ware and functionality like tethering that SHOULD be basic and free, but are forced to pay for if they want to use it. My 2cents, go figure.
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Everybody has got to start somehwere.
typ_ex said:
Everybody has got to start somehwere.
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That is also true, my brother was just being a lazy ass
This is one of the reasons why carriers love Android.
Yes, it's as open as it can get.
Yes, its openness is exploited by carriers, forcing devices to be lacking functionality / installing bloatware / etc.
These things don't contradict each other.
For a "stupid" end user, there isn't much choice - not all carriers offer vanilla Android devices. On the other hand, the same goes for iPhone - whatever you got there, you got there, whatever apps are supplied by the carrier - you get, if the carrier allows you to tether - it'll make sure you pay for it, and you'll be damn sure you can't install anything unofficial.
For a bit more advanced user, openness is great - once protections are bypassed (and they're bypassed on every device), ROM developers can turn those phones into whatever they want, and since the core of the system is open, you get all the services this core offers you, and carriers can't do a thing.
Not any different from the iPhone that the writer keeps comparing to.
The points are good and true as long as they're taken away from the context of that crappy and intentionally twisted article.
Siegler and arrington are horrible writers, I feel for the other writers at techcrunch because most of the others are good. But any article by those two I take as nothing more then trolling for ad hits, even if somewhere in their crap writing is a few valid points.
If they aren't paid directly by apple they have definite stock interest.
He asks 1000 presumably non-average readers of TechCrunch why THEY chose Android and when they say "openness" he's no longer interested and wants to "consider the average consumer". Who knows what they think dude, they've been buying iPhones, go sit outside a strip mall and ask them? He is essentially arguing with himself here
I'm pretty sure all the people who realize bloatware sucks have the knowledge to do some simple Google searches on how to use ADB.
Just sayin'...
AT&T doesn't put bloatware onto their iPhone's because it's ONLY on AT&T, that in itself is a crime. I guarantee once iPhone is available on other carriers it will have some sort of crap on it... and it won't be removable at all.
You don't even have to root your Android phone to remove crap
In the UK the iPhone is available on all carriers, and there is nothing added to any of them, it's the same ROM for all, how it should be. It's one thing Apple have done right.
Rusty! said:
In the UK the iPhone is available on all carriers, and there is nothing added to any of them, it's the same ROM for all, how it should be. It's one thing Apple have done right.
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Really? Well I take back what I said then.
Even though it SHOULDN'T be this way at all. Carriers can do what the hell they want. At least I have a choice between many phones other than just one.
Meh, maybe Gingerbread will change things. I don't think bloatware deteriorates the OS as a whole.. I just think it shouldn't be there... and it's very easy to remove anyway.
Rusty! said:
In the UK the iPhone is available on all carriers, and there is nothing added to any of them, it's the same ROM for all, how it should be. It's one thing Apple have done right.
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Yeah, too bad our botched american system of using cell carriers isnt more similar to the way the rest of the world does it. Then everyone would be happi...(er)
Rusty! said:
In the UK the iPhone is available on all carriers, and there is nothing added to any of them, it's the same ROM for all, how it should be. It's one thing Apple have done right.
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Do the android phones have carrier bloat in them or are they as vanilla as the iphones?
Blueman101 said:
Yeah, too bad our botched american system of using cell carriers isnt more similar to the way the rest of the world does it. Then everyone would be happi...(er)
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Free enterprise system at its finest!
EDIT: Not sayin' everyone else is commie....
Before getting a Nexus One, i made sure i researched what android OS is and even bought a used MT3G to root the hell out of it, unroot it, flash radios do all sorts of crap to it and learn as much as i want and now i can say i am pretty confident and things have gotten easier than before.
To get an android phone for my wife i have to wait 2-3 months after a phone is released to see how much support it gets from the community that is how sad android has turned into, the nexus one is great because is open, however i will not expect samsung, lg or any carrier having the intentions on supporting old phones because they don't make money.
If carriers keep butchering android people may start looking the other way.
SiNJiN76 said:
Do the android phones have carrier bloat in them or are they as vanilla as the iphones?
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Android phones get bloatware/branding
O2 still haven't released 2.2 for the Desire over here, and Vodafone were in the middle of a huge ****storm when they released a branding OTA update when everyone was expecting Froyo.
Buying your own SIM free phone is the way forward.
greenstuffs said:
To get an android phone for my wife i have to wait 2-3 months after a phone is released to see how much support it gets from the community that is how sad android has turned into,
If carriers keep butchering android people may start looking the other way.
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Totally agree.
I would even argue that Android is worse, because you need to root in order to get the most out of it. That's the same as jailbreaking the iPhone (and at least you know that the hacking community for the iphone is going to be huge)
not necessarily, android(non-rooted) lets you do so much more then a jalbroken iphone.
I will give the author credit for calling out Android's "openness", much like the recent net neutrality things going around, the word "open" is an absolute, something that Android is very close to but still isn't 100%. But still a hell of a lot more open the Apples Draconian Totalitarianism system of ruling its users.
What bugs me about this author is his constant smear campaign about android. I can understand not liking something but really?! This guy writes article after article holding Apple in the light and scorning Android for something, then what happens, all the Apple fans ***** and moan about this feature that Android has had for months if not years, then Apple takes that idea calls it revolutionary, markets the hell out of it, then this author writes an article about how Apple is even better with this new feature that he just condemned on the Android platform.
Android is open. Open does not mean it is easy for users to modify nor does it mean that products made over Android has to be open. Anyone can download the source and do what they will with android. Cyanogenmod is an example of a group of users doing what they want with AOSP. Similarly a phone manufacturer or wireless carrier can do whatever they want with it. What people seem to misunderstand is that the manufacturer and carrier are under no obligation to make it easy (or even possible) to modify the android install on a device or use the modifications they create.
This choice was on purpose. If Google went with GPL (forcing the carriers to open their modifications) it would not have been taken up by the carriers. You can argue if this is reasonable but the fact remains the conservative carriers would not take up a GPLd OS at this time. This does not mean the OS is not open, it simply means that the product that is created by a carrier is not in the control of the user.
One Carrier. One device yearly. Multiple updates throughout the year. But one of the best parts, imo, No AT&T control. Apple seems to have complete control. I know a lot of people who really dislike that, but I know even more who are pulling their hair out because they signed a two year contract on a device that may never see Android 2.3. Or by the time it does there will be 20 newer, better and faster devices out with 3.0. It's frustrating when you not only have to wait on Google to produce a newer update, but then you have to wait on the phone manufacturer to produce an update due to their proprietary UI, and then have to wait on the carrier to add their bloatware and restrictions.
These forums are our only way to vent these frustrations. The carrier doesn't care, and the manufacturer doesn't care. They have your name on the dotted line. You are theirs for the next two years if you don't want an ETF.
Why not release stock Android with the option of carrier UI download?
Or at least a system where you can go to stock Android for your device, downloaded directly from Google in an itunes manner if you wanted.
I hear the term "fragmented" a lot these days when people talk about Android. So many devices with so many versions of Android.
I've heard talk of an Android overhaul with 3.0. May'be rumors.
When we do get 2.2, We will go through the whole thing over again for 2.3.
2.3 is already out. It should be made ready for all Android devices that can support it an be available as a download for those devices. At the same time the carriers should be working on their custom UI and have that downloadable ASAP. May'be that's impossible due to the fact that Google doesn't produce these devices, just the base software on them.
Just my rant/questions/vent
I do see your point.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
Samsung site is advertising 2.2 froyo for epic?
I never looked at it that way. We definitely wouldn't be that pissed now. Although samsung is slapping us in the face advertising froyo 2.2 for our phones here http://www.samsung.com/us/mobile/cell-phones/SPH-D700ZKASPR-features
And you are posting this in the forum of a device with a slideout keyboard and 4 inch SAMOLED screen.
Yes I sure would love to be locked into one form factor and system internals.
diego1985 said:
I never looked at it that way. We definitely wouldn't be that pissed now. Although samsung is slapping us in the face advertising froyo 2.2 for our phones here http://www.samsung.com/us/mobile/cell-phones/SPH-D700ZKASPR-features
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This ish pissis me off...... and I'm in us stuck on unofficial 2.2
Sent from my Samsung epic using XDA App
What device hasn't been upgraded either officially or through custom roms within a year of its release to a newer build of Android? The iPhone gets updates once a year.
Anyone pulling their hair out because their device isn't getting an official port of Android 2.3 is an idiot to begin with. Buy devices that are worthy on their own with current software. Don't hope that you MAY get an update to make it the phone you really want. And if you somehow NEED to get updates because your e-peen just won't be big enough without the latest Android build on your phone, then buy a damn nexus 1 or S.
dakarf said:
And you are posting this in the forum of a device with a slideout keyboard and 4 inch SAMOLED screen.
Yes I sure would love to be locked into one form factor and system internals.
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Just talking about one slice of the Apple, not the whole thing. There is also something good to be said of openness and choice.
There is just so much anger and frustration when it comes to Android and I think a lot of it has to do with manufacturer and carrier control and their decision to keep the consumer out of the loop. Vague and general answers are not much better than no answers at all. The "you'll get it when you get it" attitude some people have, although it's true, does not ease the sense of irritation.
Theres no way cr-apple had the right idea, there while system is flawed right down to one piece of hardware for all. All other things aside, I hate apple hardware period. And everyone having the sandstone except for color is stupid. Android ftw. Open hardware/software ftw. Samoled ftw.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
Maybe Froyo will come soon with these changes coming to the website. We know its close.
Sent from my shoe, I mean....Epic shoe... I mean Samsung Epic! http://mobilehighway.blogspot.com/
While maybe apple doesn't have the right idea it sounds like windows phone 7 may have it right. Multiple devices, multiple carriers, multiple form factors, manufacterer controlled updates. Too bad its not as awesome as android yet
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
The thing is its messy right now but once 3.0 comes things will change a lot...why? simple, right now Google is releasing bi-annually..and not waiting for manufacturers to catch up...once 3.0 hits Android will be released once a year...Google will also start working closer with their partners and manufacturers...
In reality I don't think Apple or WP7 has the right idea...simply because right now entered a cell phone age..aka phone specs are jumping every year by a good leap...
Apple has a policy where they upgraded the 3gs and the 3g to version 4 which is nice for average consumers..but at the same time it kinda forces partners to limit themselves to the minimum specs...same will happen with WP7 and their minimum of snapdragons...once dual cores come out and apps take advantage of these, all WP7 devices will be left behind because the apps have to be backwards compatible with the lower specced versions..(now I know they may have implementations of which hardware can use what App..but then both M$ and Apple would be eating their own words of "fragmentation" as they call it)
I can understand how an average consumer would be left out right now..but at same time average consumer does not care much for upgrades as much as we do either...either way past 3.0 it will get a lot better..
apple and windows are limited because thats the way they want it. f*** that. this android is the most universal device ive ever seen. the os is written very well. i like no limits or restrictions to the possibilities other than the hardware. do you really think the next iphone will have a dual core sssshhhhtttt i doubt it. even if it does it will still be slower than this phone ha. google is getting their act together with android because it is in their best interest because they will make way more money off of all the advertising from everytime we search stuff and the info they get from when we use navigation.
Or does it seem like Honeycomb was rushed out. I get a lot of force closes on my browser and other apps that were installed when I get my Xoom. Does anyone else get that?
Nope, it's just you, nobody has never made a thread like this ever in this forum.
Next time put something real in the title.
Google is going to f***ing dissenchant me with all their little f***ing two sided antics. OK I get it, blah blah open f***ing source etc. But you can't have it both ways. You want to make a liberal system that can be taken advantage of freely by developers and promote creativity and freedom, great. But you do half the work and allow the cyanogenmod team to smooth out the rest of the quarks and make your OS closer to an expected consumer user experience, voiding peoples warranty in the process. Even at this point, OK. BUT YOU CAN'T F***ING HAVE THE HARDWARE MANUFACTURERS AND CARRIERS PARADING AROUND LIKE ITS OK TO MILK A HALF BAKED OS BY SUCKING PEOPLE DRY WITH INSANE UNJUSTIFIABLE PRICES, ESPECIALLY WHEN NOT EVEN ONE CENT OF ANY OF THE SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT COMES OUT OF THEIR POCKET.
Google needs to put the f***ing squeeze on these a*****es or realize that they are full of s***.
IndivisibleP said:
Language in quote cleaned.
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Lolololol its a breath of fresh air seeing someone comment with this much emotion
Sent from my HTC Desire using XDA App
IndivisibleP said:
Google is going to f***ing dissenchant me with all their little f***ing two sided antics. OK I get it, blah blah open f***ing source etc. But you can't have it both ways. You want to make a liberal system that can be taken advantage of freely by developers and promote creativity and freedom, great. But you do half the work and allow the cyanogenmod team to smooth out the rest of the quarks and make your OS closer to an expected consumer user experience, voiding peoples warranty in the process. Even at this point, OK. BUT YOU CAN'T F***ING HAVE THE HARDWARE MANUFACTURERS AND CARRIERS PARADING AROUND LIKE ITS OK TO MILK A HALF BAKED OS BY SUCKING PEOPLE DRY WITH INSANE UNJUSTIFIABLE PRICES, ESPECIALLY WHEN NOT EVEN ONE CENT OF ANY OF THE SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT COMES OUT OF THEIR POCKET.
Google needs to put the f***ing squeeze on these a*****es or realize that they are full of s***.
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and THE OP
Nobody forced you to buy anything. Is honeycomb perfect? no we already know this. 2.2 or 2.3 is not perfect so not sure what you expected. We got earthquakes, tsunamis, and civil wars going on and you are worried about some force closes. You dont like it dont buy it. You should feel lucky you even have the choice to buy a Xoom. Quit your *****in.
IndivisibleP said:
INSANE UNJUSTIFIABLE PRICES
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Sounds like you can't really afford the Xoom. Maybe you should just take it back and get a refund. Yes, I think that's the best course for everyone involved.
DroidzFX said:
and THE OP
Nobody forced you to buy anything. Is honeycomb perfect? no we already know this. 2.2 or 2.3 is not perfect so not sure what you expected. We got earthquakes, tsunamis, and civil wars going on and you are worried about some force closes. You dont like it dont buy it. You should feel lucky you even have the choice to buy a Xoom. Quit your *****in.
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I wasn't "*****in" as you like to put it I was merely asking a question as to whether this was a common thing or if mine was just having problems and maybe I should reload it or something to fix it. If you can't say anything constructive maybe you should avoid using that 1st amendment right of yours.
matdev said:
I wasn't "*****in" as you like to put it I was merely asking a question as to whether this was a common thing or if mine was just having problems and maybe I should reload it or something to fix it. If you can't say anything constructive maybe you should avoid using that 1st amendment right of yours.
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Maybe you should do some research because this question has been asked several times. If the same question or statement is mentioned over and over then it becomes classified as *****in. Unfortunately you fell into this category.
I think the price is fair...and Moto does have software dev time in it - Kernel time at a minimum. I'm fully aware Google was involved in the design process of the device, but I doubt other than a ton of OEM support to Moto that they actually have a ton of resources invested in the device it self.
I guess no one has looked in to purchasing a 32Gb SSD - those alone are $100.
10" screen ~$100 for just a screen without any touch digitizer
So 200 bucks in cost in 2 pieces of hardware.
One of the problems with the Android community as a whole is everyone whining about price. The price of hardware, the price of apps. The Apple drones could care less about price, they'll pay what they are asked to pay regardless of any other thought than "It's white, it has fruit on it" . I however am a fairly informed consumer and am WILLING to pay for latest and greatest as long as it serves my needs.
However, the lack of HC Source has made me reconsider the purchase....
Kcarpenter said:
I think the price is fair...and Moto does have software dev time in it - Kernel time at a minimum. I'm fully aware Google was involved in the design process of the device, but I doubt other than a ton of OEM support to Moto that they actually have a ton of resources invested in the device it self.
I guess no one has looked in to purchasing a 32Gb SSD - those alone are $100.
10" screen ~$100 for just a screen without any touch digitizer
So 200 bucks in cost in 2 pieces of hardware.
One of the problems with the Android community as a whole is everyone whining about price. The price of hardware, the price of apps. The Apple drones could care less about price, they'll pay what they are asked to pay regardless of any other thought than "It's white, it has fruit on it" . I however am a fairly informed consumer and am WILLING to pay for latest and greatest as long as it serves my needs.
However, the lack of HC Source has made me reconsider the purchase....
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You have to think though, that by not releasing the source.. they are doing their best to avoid some of the issues spoken about previously. Too often manufacturers would like to prey on the uneducated or the early adopters by throwing a half developed piece of hardware out the door, slapping the google android sticker on it.. and then while they profit, they take the good name of Google/Android and drag it through the mud.
Look at the reaction to the original Samsung Galaxy Tab. It was thrown out, with an OS that was not made for a tablet, on hardware not optimized for the design... only to capitalize on the fact that they would be the first out the gate (or at least one of the first). Apple did the same thing, and took their phone OS and blew it up to a larger format. The only reason they succeeded was that they had their system locked down and could ensure that they had a good hardware/software mix. The throngs of iFags everywhere gobble it up because they knew it would be solid enough to satisfy them for a year till the next one comes out and improves on it.
Google is finally learning from Apple in that respect.
By not releasing the sc for HC, they are making sure that they can correct the early issues found with HC in the Xoom, as well as ensure the hardware its installed on meets specific requirements as to not damage their name or their products name. Its not that it wont let it out eventually, but they want to make it as solid as possible before they do. I respect them for that, even if it makes the modding community's job a bit harder in the interim.
Lastly... you can blame the marketing techniques for shady products. Simple people are too excited by shiny products with big words in their advertising, that they get burned by not researching... and those that get burned, cry the most. Those that do their due diligence and research, only blame themselves when they get burned because they overlooked a mistake or failed to prioritize features.
matdev said:
Or does it seem like Honeycomb was rushed out. I get a lot of force closes on my browser and other apps that were installed when I get my Xoom. Does anyone else get that?
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Can you give us some more details? Like, did you root your xoom or are you experiencing all of these force closes on a clean xoom that you just got 2 days ago? Did you throw an image on there, sideload a bunch of apps, etc....
Off Topic...
Many people do not understand when they try to compare the Xoom to a polished product like the iPad that the iPad OS has been around for a while before the iPad even came to market (iTouch, iPhone) and developers had already enough time to work with iOS so when the iPad was released there was not that much difference besides the new screen real estate that they had to adjust their apps for. When the iPad first came out there were some bugs, apps had that BS 2x until they were optimized for the iPad, etc...The Xoom is a brand new product that is sporting new hardware and a brand new OS that developers have not had the opportunity to work on until just recently so if "you" are not an early adopter then please buy an iPad. And if you are going to complain about the price of the Xoom compared to an iPad 2 then please explain how many 16GB WiFi only models are selling for the same price right now as a Xoom.
The entire android os and their very diverse array of devices is the reason it will fail. Kind of the same reason linux have not been able to penetrate the masses. I been a linux user since 92 and even I get overwhelmed sometimes with the amounts of distros out there. Got it that is what open source is about however. that same premises is what hinders its progress. Andoid is too fragmented with companies rushing out devices to the market without been ready, unfortunately the so call "early adopters" do everyone else a deservice by rushing to buy such devices, to compund this, companies are quick to abandon support for devices after a couple of months leaving us at the mercy of freelance developers (which by the way are great)
Yes the xoom and hc were rushed out to the market on an effort to get a headstart on other devices, by now it has been proven that it did now work as expected for them
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neonflx said:
The entire android os and their very diverse array of devices is the reason it will fail. Kind of the same reason linux have not been able to penetrate the masses.
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What? You realize android is the most used smartphone platform worldwide right (ignoring sybian)? If that isn't market penetration I don't know what is.
The API differences from 1.6-2.3 are so minor that application compatibility is really a non issue between operating systems. The only issue is hardware differences really.
Ask the average Joe user what version of android or IOS they are using and they'll ask you "what?". Only the power users ***** and moan about these relatively minor OS updates because they always want the latest thing.
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neonflx said:
The entire android os and their very diverse array of devices is the reason it will fail. Kind of the same reason linux have not been able to penetrate the masses. I been a linux user since 92 and even I get overwhelmed sometimes with the amounts of distros out there. Got it that is what open source is about however. that same premises is what hinders its progress. Andoid is too fragmented with companies rushing out devices to the market without been ready, unfortunately the so call "early adopters" do everyone else a deservice by rushing to buy such devices, to compund this, companies are quick to abandon support for devices after a couple of months leaving us at the mercy of freelance developers (which by the way are great)
Yes the xoom and hc were rushed out to the market on an effort to get a headstart on other devices, by now it has been proven that it did now work as expected for them
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA Premium App
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Are you rooting for Android to fail? You know they do have Windows based phones if you don't like android ones. No one is forcing you to buy anything android. This is not a hate forum so unless you actually own a xoom and have a general question/statement regarding the xoom/honeycomb then why not just go find a "I hate android/linux/capitalism" forum.
neonflx said:
The entire android os and their very diverse array of devices is the reason it will fail. Kind of the same reason linux have not been able to penetrate the masses. I been a linux user since 92 and even I get overwhelmed sometimes with the amounts of distros out there. Got it that is what open source is about however. that same premises is what hinders its progress. Andoid is too fragmented with companies rushing out devices to the market without been ready, unfortunately the so call "early adopters" do everyone else a deservice by rushing to buy such devices, to compund this, companies are quick to abandon support for devices after a couple of months leaving us at the mercy of freelance developers (which by the way are great)
Yes the xoom and hc were rushed out to the market on an effort to get a headstart on other devices, by now it has been proven that it did now work as expected for them
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA Premium App
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Really? You must have been on a deserted island for the last couple years. My Xoom running Honeycomb works just fine. Someone needs to start a thread titled ***** here so you guys can get together share what type of tampons you prefer.
First off, keep in mind I'm not trying to start a fight. I really don't know the answers.
Given that Honeycomb is never going to be open source, to me that means ROM changes by the dev community are impossible. Only Acer can make and push out those changes.
I don't consider changing an app out to be "development". To me, that's theming. While that's a fine thing, what I really want are changes to the core code to fix basic problems with the OS we've been given.
At some point in the near future I'd like to participate in making those changes.
Since HC source is never going to be available to me, that tells me that I'm going to be limited to theming the OS I've already got.
What do you know that I don't which leads you to think the dev community will be able to make substantial changes to our tablets?
Ice Cream is rumored to be scheduled for Q4 and Google has stated it will be the next open-sourced version.
Honeycomb was effectively a rush-to-market to try to allow companies like Motorola and Acer to compete with the iPad before it came too late, and is an incredible hack job.
I'm okay with that. Once someone breaks the boot-loader on the Acer some enterprising dev will get Ice Cream on it, even if Honeycomb is never released as source.
News sources: http://phandroid.com/2011/05/10/goo...mb-because-they-wanted-to-wait-for-ice-cream/
http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/10/google-announces-ice-cream-sadwich-for-q4-2011-for-smartphones/
It's funny that Google is so embarassed of how bad they had to code Honeycomb to get it out that they won't let the public see it. It's got to be really stinky, and it explains the problems we have. I'd rather this than Apple winning the war though.
That being said, I don't want Apple out of the game either. I want it split 50/50 or so. Encourage price and development pressure on the corporations.
muqali said:
It's funny that Google is so embarassed of how bad they had to code Honeycomb to get it out that they won't let the public see it. It's got to be really stinky, and it explains the problems we have. I'd rather this than Apple winning the war though.
That being said, I don't want Apple out of the game either. I want it split 50/50 or so. Encourage price and development pressure on the corporations.
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Yup. I completely agree. The competition keeps them on their toes.
Sent from Desire HD or Inspire 4G or whatever this thing is called via premium XDA app.
agreed , I dont think anyone wants Apple out of the game , just as kicking Microsoft to the curb is unwise! Competition makes prices go down and technology better!
I think the comparison to apple products is not really justified. These tablets are not glorified ipods (and I mean this in a good way), but they are actual intermediates from phone to laptops. I have a more efficient way of browsing, e-mail, reading, playing movies, etc that happens to have games.
I am impressed that Apple introduces well packaged and polished products to consumers, and for most consumers, these products will work well for their "needs." I agree with what another member said recently, just using the product is only half the fun. I think the reason we are on these forums and buy these products is that we enjoy the challenge that Android devices hold. They are basically the most raw form of the new tablet PC market, akin to the old IBMs and such that most of us remember using when we were younger. You know, the ones we used to open up and explore, disassemble and reassemble.
I love what the android tablet market offers: a collection of powerful hardware and the collective creativity of everyone in this dev community. I am looking forward to what kind of crazy things this community comes up with.
These days, I'm seeing lots of supposed teams tossing zillions of ROMs that are no real improvement. I think I have tried 1 out 2 and I stopped the flashing game after I realized they are almost the same dog with a different collar.
Am I the only one? Is our Vibrant a stalled device in terms of REAL development? Come on, boys, less theming and more real improving!!
You're kidding, right?
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
I'm not kidding. Can you name a ROM that is not CM7 that is making real improvements like proper GPS with sensors and no path-sliding in Gingerbread, improved battery, no problems entering deep sleep and being fast?
Any ROM GB ROM that doesn't not suck, lasting less than 15 hours with moderate use?
You wanna go beg samsung to release source? Wait. Dont. By the way you type, you seem like a genius that can build us a source!
JMN... everyone jumped ship and started working on Gingerbread... without anything specific for our phone. I guess you could say we are stalled in that regard. Nobody wants 2.2.... and the 2.3.+ roms are missing a lot of the key things needed for what you seek. It is what it is.
Go pester T-Mobile and Samsung, not XDA/community/developers.
I do.
If it were as easy as you make it seem, I am sure our Vibrant would have a 100% working CM7 right now. Problem is, it isn't. We don't have any source code for Gingerbread, our GPS is from a half-baked file for the Galaxy S 4G, and Samsung decided to use several proprietary loops inside their source code that make the code counter-intuitive. As a result, our developers basically have to reverse engineer a good portion of the code itself.
Or you are more than welcome to start working on it yourself. Seems as up until JVQ dropped on I9000 I was the only one actually doing anything (with of course a couple other good people dropping in from time to time). From April until now we went from a build that was barely usable for more than a couple hours to builds that are definite daily drivers. Granted there are still some flaws but with less than a handful of people do any real developing on what free time we do have and for no incentive other than the thank you button and occasional donation I'd say we're doing pretty damn good.
In the words of someone famous you're either part of the solution or you're part of the problem. Which are you going be?
EDIT: My statement above is putting CM7/MIUI aside, different animal/problems/features/pluses/minuses.
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I dunno man, I found a ROM that does everything that you listed. What you're asking is a lot of development time for marginal improvements.
Sent from my HTC Sensation
So what do you gotta say now bro?
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its not that easy to build a rom thats so great people build on xda some can be slightly better than others but hey thats why u get updates, if ur looking for good battery life on gb use an i9000 port like simplyhoney and u wont be mad about the battery life on the other hand i use cm7 and have been on it ever since nightlies started being released i will tell u it came a long way from no gps and battery drain to a half working gps which is still functional to decent battery life and i am grateful for all the hard work but into it
Funny seems like JMN went silent!
I think he got served!
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Biting the hands that feed... smh
OK, OK.
Please, forgive me for my anger being unleashed. Maybe it was that I see newer devices having a plethora of updates and improvements, or maybe because with my previous device (HTC Polaris running Windows Mobile 6) there was a man (XDA member know as DZO) that reverse engineered it, driver by driver to make a fully fledged Android device.
I ask you for your understanding, and hope you pardon me. You're right: the real problem here is that T-Mobile and Samsung abandoned the Vibrant to its own luck.
Lots of devs jumped ships because of that. I don't make them guilty about this situation, although I did in my first post. Sorry about that.
I'm a dev myself, but not so low level. I cannot compile drivers or reverse engineer. Otherwise, I would really like to collaborate with Atinm and the others.
Please, don't abandon or blame the Vibrant and other Galaxy S devices and try to squeeze all the juice out of it. If we all switch to the latest device, manufacturers will always laugh at us selling slightly different hardware, not upgrades for our totally capable devices.
Nothing more to add. Sorry for my rough and disrespectful words I wrote before. Long live XDA-Devs.
My fellows, I went to the T-Mobile USA facebook site (http://www.facebook.com/TMobile) and published this on their wall:
"SHAME ON YOU, T-MOBILE! Where is Gingerbread for the T-Mobile VIBRANT???? Do you ever care about your users? Do you think we will eat every phone you release with no questions and wishing NO SUPPORT? We do buy devices with future in mind. A ONE-year-device has been ditched away because you are too busy selling the so called 4G version. Too obvious you're playing with us, playing the "buy me and forget me" game. Sorry, but never again to you, T-Mobile, or whatever you will be called after the merger."
I hope you could support me or write comments criticizing the way T-Mobile is acting upon us.
Thanks.
I just re-posted your message on T-Mobiles Facebook site. Not too sure where yours went. Maybe they deleted it.
Thanks a lot, dude. They have the site configured so you cannot see the posts that users write on the wall until you explicitly reveal them using the "Most recent" option (link http://www.facebook.com/TMobile?sk=wall&filter=1). It's there, I think. We need to cry out loud.
I absolutely approve of telling T-Mobile we are tired of waiting.....
Gingerbread = Security.
I posted this on their facebook, all we can do is hope one day they get the point.
"T-mobile, you have a very loyal customer base that bought one of 2010's best smartphones, the Samsung Vibrant. However, with the release of the Samsung Vibrant 4g, we have been left in the dark and seemingly ignored regarding security updates and notifications, specifically the gingerbread 2.3 update. We buy devices with the future in mind, and expect to have full support for the devices we spend our hard earned money on. We know that Samsung awaits your instruction to push the updates, and we respectfully request you do so immediately, in order to be up to date on stability, security, and support. This situation has bothered and frustrated many in the Vibrant community, we only ask that you extinguish that fire by providing us the update we deserve and earned, by being your customers."
people will never learn...
they cannot support devices forever. it seems like every single person thinks that once they buy a smartphone, they are guaranteed lifetime support. the cell phone industry is one of the fastest growing industries in the world. i would much rather them cut off my support and have a beast upgrade waiting for me, rather than them focus on constantly rolling out updates for every single device theyve ever created just to shut up *****y consumers. think about it, getting stuck with an outdated device makes it all that much better once you get your upgrade! its amazing im saying this, as i despise corporate america.
i realize the vibrant is just over a year removed, BUT THIS HAPPENS WITH EVERY SINGLE DEVICE. i guarantee if you go to ANY other forum for a device that is 1+ years old, 95% of them will be filled with threads like this. update this, update that, fix this, release this blahblahiwantmybottleblahblah. its not JUST tmobile. its not JUST samsung. these accusations are so narrow-minded. what would happen if they released gingerbread??? two months later, the cry babies would be right back in full swing, "wheres honeycomb?? release honeycomb source!!" it has to end somewhere, you can never satisfy everybody, let alone ANYBODY in the vibrant forum.
its the industry. its the way it works, so stop acting like we are the only ones who are "suffering". its such an ignorant, narcissistic way of looking at it. enjoy what you got, nothings ever built to last. youre "stuck" with a damn good device, it is what you make it. weekly threads begging for gingerbread, or ****ting on tmobile/samsung is clearly not getting it done. so maybe people should be spending their time differently instead of constantly *****ing: get familiar with linux, learn to compile/decompile, learn to theme...its amazing how much fun (yes, without source!) youll be able to have once you learn some stuff. keep yourself busy creating new things, youll take more pride in your device knowing its something that YOU created, as opposed to trolling around and downloading anything you can get your sticky fingers on.
gingerbread isnt here....but neither is the end of the world.
TopShelf10 said:
people will never learn...
they cannot support devices forever. it seems like every single person thinks that once they buy a smartphone, they are guaranteed lifetime support. the cell phone industry is one of the fastest growing industries in the world. i would much rather them cut off my support and have a beast upgrade waiting for me, rather than them focus on constantly rolling out updates for every single device theyve ever created just to shut up *****y consumers. think about it, getting stuck with an outdated device makes it all that much better once you get your upgrade! its amazing im saying this, as i despise corporate america.
i realize the vibrant is just over a year removed, BUT THIS HAPPENS WITH EVERY SINGLE DEVICE. i guarantee if you go to ANY other forum for a device that is 1+ years old, 95% of them will be filled with threads like this. update this, update that, fix this, release this blahblahiwantmybottleblahblah. its not JUST tmobile. its not JUST samsung. these accusations are so narrow-minded. what would happen if they released gingerbread??? two months later, the cry babies would be right back in full swing, "wheres honeycomb?? release honeycomb source!!" it has to end somewhere, you can never satisfy everybody, let alone ANYBODY in the vibrant forum.
its the industry. its the way it works, so stop acting like we are the only ones who are "suffering". its such an ignorant, narcissistic way of looking at it. enjoy what you got, nothings ever built to last. youre "stuck" with a damn good device, it is what you make it. weekly threads begging for gingerbread, or ****ting on tmobile/samsung is clearly not getting it done. so maybe people should be spending their time differently instead of constantly *****ing: get familiar with linux, learn to compile/decompile, learn to theme...its amazing how much fun (yes, without source!) youll be able to have once you learn some stuff. keep yourself busy creating new things, youll take more pride in your device knowing its something that YOU created, as opposed to trolling around and downloading anything you can get your sticky fingers on.
gingerbread isnt here....but neither is the end of the world.
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To be honest, support for the Vibrant has been pretty much nonexistent from T-Mobile, I don't think it's too much to ask for a GB ROM from them and Samsung, had T-Mobile been into providing us service instead of trying to sell out we could have had a beter chance at some real support.