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I searched through ten pages of returns on google looking for anything related to this and couldn't find it here, so I don't think it has been discussed here before. So here goes...
Does anyone think the wifi based location determination actually works on the G1? I guess I imagine that it would work like this. In the office where I work, there are a couple of 802.11 wireless networks. And once I go inside the building with my phone,the GPS quality goes to crap since it is indoors--no surprise there. It can literally be off by BLOCKS, perhaps a half mile or more after I've been inside for a while. I would like to think that the phone would somehow know that, OK, I don't have a decent GPS signal, so let's see if I can get a decent wifi location. Sure, it's not going to tell me what room in the building I am in, which GPS would be able to do if there wasn't a roof on the building, but I am OK with that. I just want the locale app to know what building I am in. So now I have to make circles of about a half mile in radius (a mile in diameter) to be sure my location in locale doesn't look like I've left and gone to the default profile since the GPS accuracy decreases once you go inside a building and it starts looking like you are hopping all over the place.
So, where does the Wifi database live? On a google server or is it a third party? How can I test it to see how accurate it is--both in terms of feet and inches and in terms of completeness of the database? Can I add new wifi access points to the database? How can I see, for instance, if my home access point is in the database? What happens if I move and take my access point with me? How do I update the database?
The phone uses two methods to determine geolocation-- a-gps and cell tower triangulation. No wifi-based methods are used.
That's interesting because when you go to Settings-->Security & location, you can see the setting for "Use wireless networks" under "My location sources". The secondary text says "Location determined by wi-fi and/or mobile networks", so it sure does look like it uses WiFi for positioning. Not that I doubt you, but you have to admit, the setting in the phone sure is misleading then.
I hate it when I do this. Look what I just found:
http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2009/01/skyhook-location-sdk-for-android.ars
Definitely makes one think it isn't wifi positioning isn't built into the phone.
The description text is a little misleading yes. Perhaps it's general all-encompassing text. I imagine at some point there will be Android devices without cellular radios that could benefit from wifi positioning. As it stands however wifi positioning is just not very robust. It only works in areas with wifi networks (great if you're lost in a suburb, bad if you're lost in an industrial complex).
Anyway out-of-box, Dream only uses cellular positioning (which is surprisingly accurate) and A-GPS.
It looks like Google forced OEMs to ditch Skyhook, and, affording to this article, Samsung was involved. I wonder if Samsung scrambled to put together a quick fix before releasing the Galaxy S and this could explain the AGPS issues.
http://i.engadget.com/2010/09/17/skyhook-google-forced-motorola-to-drop-our-location-service-de/
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
Isnt skyhook disabled by default? So how would this affect the GPS?
KerryG said:
Isnt skyhook disabled by default? So how would this affect the GPS?
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http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/17/skyhook-google-forced-motorola-to-drop-our-location-service-de/
Following that, Skyhook claims that Google then went after an unidentified "Company X" (likely Samsung) and forced it to drop XPS as well -- which would certainly explain why Samsung's Galaxy S phones have WiFi positioning turned off by default, unlike every other Android phone. Ouch.
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Skyhook is absolutely 100% unnecessary for a properly functioning gps. It has nothing to do with the problems on the Galaxy S devices.
Sent from Samsung Vibrant
Just turn it back on. Go to *#*#1472365#*#*, application settings, scroll down to skyhook, select on. Then wifi positioning/AGPS should be on now. Its a shame its off by default.
Sent from my messenger rabbit
so what is this going to change if i enable skyhook?? should I enable skyhook??
Not sure if this is the same for everyone, but I can't seem to access the GPS settings using the *#*#1472365#*#* command - not sure when it started, but the one thing I did do between the last time I accessed the service (a few weeks back) to now is flashing the leaked firmware. Anyone else with this issue? I found the noted article yesterday and wanted to check to see if the Skyhook option was still there, and, of course, I can't tell.
courtmagician said:
Not sure if this is the same for everyone, but I can't seem to access the GPS settings using the *#*#1472365#*#* command - not sure when it started, but the one thing I did do between the last time I accessed the service (a few weeks back) to now is flashing the leaked firmware. Anyone else with this issue? I found the noted article yesterday and wanted to check to see if the Skyhook option was still there, and, of course, I can't tell.
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Click to collapse
That dialer code invoked a hidden app called LbsTestMode. The dialer code no longer works in the leaked ROM, but the hidden app is still there. It can be accessed by the workaround explained here, which does involve installing LauncherPro and setting up a shortcut.
Maybe Samsung rushed to market without thoroughly testing the GPS on the Galaxy phones after being told not to use Skyhook. It could have been integrated into their existing firmware. I don't know; I could be completely wrong on this, but I'm just throwing it out there to see what others think. I also can't access the GPS service menu on the new firmware. I haven't had major GPS issues to tell you the truth, but my brother has to launch GPS test to make his maps work on his Epic.
cthach11 said:
Just turn it back on. Go to *#*#1472365#*#*, application settings, scroll down to skyhook, select on. Then wifi positioning/AGPS should be on now. Its a shame its off by default.
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Click to collapse
Skyhook has nothing to do with aGPS. It is a non-GPS method of location service based on a map of all the WiFi routers and access points out there. The Skyhook company has a bunch of people who wardrive and collect the data to populate its database, then offers the service to carriers for a fee.
However, the same hidden utility (LbsTestMode) whose menu can be used to enable Skyhook also can be used to enable aGPS. Selecting MS Based mode instead of the default Standalone mode is what would do that. This controls the operation of the satellite based GPS, accelerating the download of certain satellite data over the network. It is entirely independent of Skyhook.
Enabling MS Based aGPS makes obvious sense. It is an established industry standard for GPS operation on cellphones. The merits of Skyhook are another question, and I don't really have an informed opinion.
Thanks for the link. You can actually do the same thing in ADW (which is what I use), just choose "Custom Shortcut" and then "Activities" and you can scroll don to LbsTestMode. I like it when solutions are right in front of my face
So do you need to leave your WiFi on all the time when enabling Skyhook? That would drain your battery even faster...
courtmagician said:
Thanks for the link. You can actually do the same thing in ADW (which is what I use), just choose "Custom Shortcut" and then "Activities" and you can scroll don to LbsTestMode. I like it when solutions are right in front of my face
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for this, never knew I could do that with ADW
I've always had Skyhook turned off and yet when connected to my WiFi network I get a highly accurate position, even with GPS turned off. Thoughts?
jjohns63 said:
I've always had Skyhook turned off and yet when connected to my WiFi network I get a highly accurate position, even with GPS turned off. Thoughts?
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Your position would be coming from your GPS or from cellphone tower triangulation, depending on your other settings, whether you use WiFi or not.
Skyhook would looking for all the other WiFi locations around you that are in its database. Those locations might include your local WiFI router along with everyone else's if Shyhook's wardivers found it. But Skyhook would not actually connect to those WiFi sources. It would only detect them.
boomerbubba said:
Your position would be coming from your GPS or from cellphone tower triangulation, depending on your other settings, whether you use WiFi or not.
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I know this is not the case as the accuracy circle in maps covers maybe half a block, not a mile. As I said, I had disabled the GPS, and cell tower triangulation is not that accurate, especially where I am with low signal.
Skyhook would looking for all the other WiFi locations around you that are in its database. Those locations might include your local WiFI router along with everyone else's if Shyhook's wardivers found it. But Skyhook would not actually connect to those WiFi sources. It would only detect them.
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This makes sense because I tested it today without actually connecting to a network and it still found my location to the same "wifi accuracy". I had turned on Skyhook for this test. However, I'm still wondering how it was able to find my location with Skyhook turned off.
Skyhook is one company providing a service of mapping access points to locations. Google uses their own - probably picked up from Google maps car.
If you have "use wireless networks" checked under GPS - it will use this other provider (probably google) and not skyhook.
Ive turned skyhook on and off in testmode as well as trying other settings, gps is still bag of suck.Frankly i get better results with it on. Marginal though.BTW.use the lbs test mode app. It'll save you alot of headaches.
Vibrant vibrating nicely now,Kthx!
I have a epic runing DI07, rooted. Since I got the phone the GPS has been flawless, and i use google navigation everyday without the first issue.
But my phone is unable to determine its network location, so if GPS is off, an application can not determine my rough location.
Most of the time I don't care at all about this. However some application, "Weather and toggle widgets" uses network location to figure out where you are, and give you weather for that area, it will not even look for a GPS location. and no mater what it fails to fine my location.
I have also tested this with google maps, and every other app I have that can find my location based off what tower im connected to. I have reflashed, even rolled back to the old rom to see if it worked.
So i went into the sprint store and they told me it was working as intended. I called bull *(@# and said I wanted to exchange my phone. Dude at the counter had a moment and I showed him on the moment that with network location enabled and GPS disabled you get a blue ring in google maps showing the area you could be in, aka rough location. So he agreed to exchange my phone, we pulled out 2 more epics and tryed them both and they both behaved EXACTLY the same way. GPS lock was no problem, network location was 100% fail.
What is everyone elses experience with this?
bump. Just updated to DI18, "use wireless networks" still provides no location.
Works for me...
No problem here... running on DI07, stock but rooted. Turned off wifi, turned off GPS, turned on "use wireless networks for location" (forgot to mention) and started Maps. It definitely took a little while longer to lock on, but there I am with a big blue ring around little blue me.
Wanna go test my issue for me now
I would be forever grateful
Still no dice, anyone else want to test for me to see if this works or not for you?
update.
I pushed the NetworkLocation.apk from the samsung moment and rebooted and now its working great! It works over WiFi and over 3g/1x, and it didn't break GPS.
attached is the APK
So this past week I was having tons of issues with the cell-tower triangulation on my Nexus One. I've tried multiple things such as restarting, toggling the "Use Network Location" and mostly everything short of resetting the phone to factory default.
So I was playing around in the Applications menu and decided to just mess around with all the items there. Then, after clearing the cache on the "Google Framework" option, force closing, then restarting my phone, I was finally able to get cell phone triangulation working again!
The problem continues though, because after said procedure I was unable to access the market, or the downloaded section of the store only had 2 items listed. So I did another restart, the market works, but the cellphone triangulation breaks again.
Does anyone have a solution?
well sounds like somethings haywire on the software side of things, i'd try a factory reset/reflashing your current rom etc. or you could just use GPS i suppose
Matt1408 said:
The problem continues though, because after said procedure I was unable to access the market, or the downloaded section of the store only had 2 items listed. So I did another restart, the market works, but the cellphone triangulation breaks again.
Does anyone have a solution?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Market problems are generally due to the ROM you're using, although most cooks have that sorted immediately. What ROM are you using?
And I've never heard of anyone anything on the Framework, maybe that in itself was kind of dumb? Have you rebooted or such to see if it clears up?
So what is the issue anyway? Where are you observing that cell tower info isn't working? And you've double checked, and maybe toggled off/on the setting for this?
OP, does triangulation work for you on EDGE?
I've been in this state (2G triangulation works but 3G does not) for about two weeks now.
Most probably a T-Mobile or Google data base issue...
chdloc said:
OP, does triangulation work for you on EDGE?
I've been in this state (2G triangulation works but 3G does not) for about two weeks now.
Most probably a T-Mobile or Google data base issue...
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Click to collapse
This is true, at one point T-Mobile and 3G the lookups didn't work.. but I haven't heard this in a long time so I'd think
I really wish people would stop referring to it a "triangulation" though, it's estimation based on tower location and possibly data from Cell+Wifi+GPS data that Google has collected. There's no calculation going on.
I am glad someone brought this up. I thought it was just me.
'Estimation' works with EDGE on, but not otherwise. If EDGE is off, Google Maps takes me to the last estimated position!
I am sure something is broken in Maps.
khaytsus said:
This is true, at one point T-Mobile and 3G the lookups didn't work.. but I haven't heard this in a long time so I'd think
I really wish people would stop referring to it a "triangulation" though, it's estimation based on tower location and possibly data from Cell+Wifi+GPS data that Google has collected. There's no calculation going on.
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OK, I believe accurate terminology would be "multilateration"
(there is an excellent Wiki article on this) which in turn is based on triangulation. The calculation is done either by the network, e.g. T-Mobile, or by Google based on the location of nearby towers...
I have the same problem as the OP. It occured since Tuesday of last week. I am also on Rogers in the Toronto and GTA region. Use wireless networks is checked under settings. The Enable location setting in the browser is also checked. However, when using 3G, location is unavailable when using the browser and it is also unavailable in the news and weather widget. RadioTime does not pick up my location either. In addition, when I travel into Toronto, the location in google maps is not updated to my new tower location. The location remains in Markham. Strange thing is that when I am on WIFI, location is available. I have tried using EDGE, same problem. I have also tried resetting to factory settings but no luck. I can confirm one of my coworkers is getting the same problem also on his N1. I don't think it is Rogers' problem since iPhone and Maemo users are having no trouble for location service on Rogers. I don't see how it is a problem on Google's servers either if location service is working for users of other OS. However, I don't know if any other Android devices on Rogers are having the same issues though. Can other Rogers users, Big 3 users, Wind/Mobilicity users confirm if their N1's are having the same issues? On a side note, my N1 is stock.
As far as the ROM/Phone. I am using the official FRG83D without any root or modifications to the firmware/bootloader.
It would not pick me up using Edge/wifi/3G and the only thing that did work was GPS. The weird thing is, it appears to be some issue with a service on the phone. The reason why I believe this is because if I went on the mobile Google, the page didn't ask me for permission to access my location.
After I cleared the cache on "Google Framework" and rebooted, everything worked fine and the browser asked me for my permission.
As madballs mentioned, it doesn't seem to be a Rogers issue as I was able to pop the sim card in my XPERIA and it was able to locate me just fine.
After going insane and going without sleep for the past 30 hours, I have linked the issue with the update to Google Goggles. Got rid of the update, location now works fine.
My N1's tower based estimation works ok on Solo (Bell's network). The estimatation is not as good as my Nokia N85 when I put the same SIM card in...
So I got into work today and same thing happened. The location services does not recognize that I am now in Toronto and not Markham. However, I tried out what the OP suggested and cleared the cache in the Google Services Framework and restarted the N1. It then recognized I am now in Toronto. This is quite strange. What does Google Services Framework do? And why would it not update when I travel into another location? It only stopped working last week. I will see if it changes back to Markham tonight when I get off work tonight. If it doesn't work, I will try deleting the Google Goggles update.
Same issues here ...
I am stock FRG83G on Rogers in southern Ontario. Been having this issue for a while but never bothered to look into it. I tried some of the tricks in this thread and here are the results:
- went to 2G - no improvement
- removed updates from Google Goggles and rebooted - no improvement
- Cleared cache and force stopped the Google Services Framework and rebooted and location is working.
I will edit this note if anything changes.
Update: Looks like clearing the framework loses your history of free downloads from the Market ... the paid items are still there.
OzCDN said:
I am stock FRG83G on Rogers in southern Ontario. Been having this issue for a while but never bothered to look into it. I tried some of the tricks in this thread and here are the results:
- went to 2G - no improvement
- removed updates from Google Goggles and rebooted - no improvement
- Cleared cache and force stopped the Google Services Framework and rebooted and location is working.
I will edit this note if anything changes.
Update: Looks like clearing the framework loses your history of free downloads from the Market ... the paid items are still there.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oops.. But try this, launch AppBrain, sync, then exit Appbrain and try the market again. I noticed by accident once after restoring all apps using Titanium Backup that before I went into Appbrain the Market didn't know about my installed apps and afterwords it did.
OzCDN said:
Update: Looks like clearing the framework loses your history of free downloads from the Market ... the paid items are still there.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you restart again, the Market will work correctly again, but the location services will break.
Same issue here on stock FRG83D since November 15.
I've tried both Rogers and Fido SIM cards. I've also done a factory reset and rolled google maps back. Nothing seems to resolve the issue so I've resorted to enabling GPS when it's available.
The same thing started happening to a friend's Acer Liquid E running 2.2 earlier this week. After clearing the maps data on their phone the positioning worked as expected once again but latitude isn't providing the correct location.
Today my N1 refused to update its position. After clearing the maps data it started to work properly.
Both phones are on Rogers and being used from Hamilton to Toronto...
Quick update. As I mentioned on post #11, I had to clear the Google Services Framework cache this morning before the N1 recognized I have left Markham and arrived in Toronto. I am in Markham now, and the N1 automatically recognized I am back in Markham now. Honestly, I have no clue what the problem is. As I stated, I have reset to factory setting a couple times the past week. I would tend to believe by reseting to factory setting is equivalent to clearing the cache. However it did not work then. So I dont know how by clearing the Google Services cache would work today. May be it is just a coincident. I will post again tomorrow when I am back in Toronto and see if the N1 recognizes the location by itself. Oh right, another thing tried was putting my friend's SIM card (he has a iPhone 3GS) into my phone, but no luck. I didn't bother giving him my SIM card to try since another poster on here said his SIM card works on his XPERIA.
beermike: Location services wasn't working for me on November 16th. Right before Eric Schmidt made his Gingerbread comment actually. I wish this hinted that Gingerbread was coming but then it's only us Rogers/Fido users having the problem.
P.S. This is probably not a Rogers issue. But I have to say, Rogers sucks. Too bad I'm on a corporate plan with them.
EDIT: I found another thread that some AT&T folks had this same issue back in May http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=679636
Restarted phone yesterday night and location services is not working today again.
I believe the correct term all of you gentlemen are looking for is "A-GPS" or "Assisted GPS".
Per the issue, are these results being achieved with the GPS hardware setting turned OFF, and the mobile network/AGPS turned ON, or are both of these settings turned on and still unable to find an accurate position?
j.bruha said:
I believe the correct term all of you gentlemen are looking for is "A-GPS" or "Assisted GPS".
Per the issue, are these results being achieved with the GPS hardware setting turned OFF, and the mobile network/AGPS turned ON, or are both of these settings turned on and still unable to find an accurate position?
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Click to collapse
No, it's NOT assisted GPS as that includes the GPS, yes? As mentioned, it's more of this nature: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multilateration
A-GPS is when your cellular provider offers the phone ephemeris data which reduces the amount of time the phone has to calculate the satellite positions and improves accuracy and the ability to maintain a fix because the phone already knows where the satellites are without downloading such data directly from the sats themselves. And in this case of course you're using the GPS, not an estimated location based on your nearby cell towers.
Assuming tower location is correct (and KNOWN...), if you only have one visible tower you should basically show up as being at or near that tower. If there are multiple towers, some set of parameters allows some estimation or predetermined location based on the results. I've read multiple times in the past that when the GPS is in use on a cellphone and My Location (what Google calls the cell tower location stuff of course) is in use, it will upload anonymous data to improve their database. There are multiple such databases, although most of them would only place you at the known location of the tower and not take into account multiple 'visible' towers.
Here's an OpenCellID lookup: http://www.opencellid.org/cell/get?mcc=310&mnc=410&lac=15913&cellid=50762 If you look closely, directly east, across the shopping center there and just into what looks like a bit of an industrial work area there's a square patch with a shadowy place; that's the tower it's referring to.
I'm in South Florida and when I update weather or location in maps, half of the time it will say I'm in Wilson, OK. My dad just got the MT4G and his does the same thing.
Any ideas? Thanks. (We both have 2.2.1 and latest updates on everything).
How is your location being determined? GPS? Mobile networks?
Usually mobile network, but I think its happened with GPS too. However, once I need to get directions from Google Navigate, it gets the right location. But until then, my weather is wrong, latitude will be wrong, etc.. I usually keep GPS off until I need Navigation.
That's definitely odd. Yeah, I keep my GPS off pretty much all the time - unless an app requests it on-demand. My weather is always found, perfectly. What's interesting is that it's happening on both your and your dad's phone. To me, that almost seems like the tower it's connecting to.
Shoot, it could even be a "bug" in the HTC weather app/widget that based on certain location data, it displays a completely different value (city). I'm only speculating.
If it was just your phone, I'd be inclined to say there is a hardware issue. I have had 3 MT4G's in my hands + my fiancee's and none of them have ever once experienced any issue such as this.
Possibly anything to do with the APNs (Access Point Names)? Check Settings > Wireless & networks > Mobile networks > Access Point Names. As far as I can tell, this is supposed to be set to T-Mobile Data.
Sorry I can't be of more help!
I know, weird. And we are on T-Mobile Data for the APN... Maybe it is the tower... ?
I have the SAME issue, it isn't as drastic, but everytime I try to go into "Maps" application to search for stuff in my location, it "finds" me at a place I haven't been for like a week, however... again, as soon as I use my turn by turn, it locks onto where I am and gives me legit directions...
My MyTouch 3G did that, said I was on the other side of the state. It probably has to do with the tower you're hooked into, because mine would only do it at work, not at home.