Database Users

bogous microsoft letter info

According to tweakers.net (dutch), a very popular and more important, trustworthy Dutch IT website.
XDA-Developers (And thus also Duttythroy.net) breaches intellectual property laws regarding ROM Cooking.
However Microsoft and HTC both agree "We can't live with 'em and we can't live without 'em."
Microsoft will not send take down orders to sites such as XDA-Developers, who offer customized ROMs for windows-mobile telephone.
Some sites offering ROMs based on Windows Mobile 6.5 got take down orders last week. They, However, appeared to be hoax.
“Taking action against sites such as XDA-Developers isn’t a matter of concern for Microsoft” says Maarten Sonneveld of Microsoft Netherlands against tweakers.net. “What happens there, the modifying of ROMs, is illegal. The intellectual property however is not with us. The ROMs are intellectual property of the producers of the phone or the mobile phone providers if it concerns branded telephones. We simple only deliver the OS.”
The biggest producer of Windows Mobile-phones, HTC, also says they don’t have any plans to take action against ROM sites. “What happens there isn’t allowed” says HTC Benelux-CEO Mark Moons,
“But XDA-Developers is the biggest and most active community of Windows Mobile-developers. We can’t live with ‘em and we can’t live without ‘em.”
Last week it seemed there were to come an end to tolerating Windows Mobile-communities.
A certain ‘James Young’ sent emails on behalf of Microsoft to site managers in which he stated that they were sharing illegal content, and summoned them to stop their practices; some site managers, in fact, did this.
It mostly concerned ROMs with betas of Windows Mobile 6.5, the update of Microsoft’s Mobile OS that should appear this summer.
The email of Young appeared, however, to be a hoax.
Microsoft denied against XDA-Developers that the summoning came from them, they also say that the email address is incorrect and that summons such as these always are sent by written letters instead of email. Not so long ago someone with the exact same email address and name sent the same kind of emails to sites that, according to him, placed illegal content for the Xbox. The Pirate Bay also received a message by ‘James Young’ in the past.
Aside from this: a funny fact is that recently Arne, when he still was on our team, contacted Microsoft and HTC concerning this very issue as we were wondering the legal status of sharing ROMs.
He however didn't receive any clear answer even though he called a zillion times and emailed to infinity, twice.
source: translated with google

so, HTC and Microsoft have acknowledged that they can't really stop us as that would pretty much halt independent development for Windows Mobile... i'd say that's a good thing

disillusionment
really microsoft is big company,but in this behaviors it will be smallest in eyes of thier system users and developers.
So small comment to microsoft (go to hell) u did not stop the developing & progression in the world.

Commercial facts
As I understand the info shared by Nemonique...
The matter of bann this develops... is concerned by the brand... but... this makes people buy devices... cause at last... the business is sell devices.. no matter if it has the shipped version X.XXXXXXXXXXXXX or the Last upgrade Y:YYYYYYYYYYYYYYY, it does´t matter they buy the OS original and upload to their devices... the upgrading modding and sharing is responsability of the user... they lost his warranty by unlocking... the business is to sell devices.
I think this ends on summer... so... provide links here is risky... pirate bay has almost closed cause the GUB on swed has told them "if you search on that site we bann you from Internet providers..." so the user at the end is the responsable.

homam_france said:
really microsoft is big company,but in this behaviors it will be smallest in eyes of thier system users and developers.
So small comment to microsoft (go to hell) u did not stop the developing & progression in the world.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Uhh, I really advise you to read the OP again..
Microsoft is NOT to blame, it was a moron IMPERSONATING MS.
Please refrain from bashing Microsoft, or we will be forced to invoke your right to use a WinMo device and will convict you to use an iPhone
BTW You are free to post ANY ROM (provided they don't contain warez).
They won't be removed (until a true complaint from MS or HTC arrives).
Regards,
EquinoXe

now, i understand more the letter, but did this process is useful for them?they couldn`t stop any one,but only the websites will be the victim.
or there is the enycripitation or the hidden will works,they try to build illegal world by thier legal stuff.
sorry, but it is really disapointed matter.

homam_france said:
now, i understand more the letter, but did this process is useful for them?they couldn`t stop any one,but only the websites will be the victim.
or there is the enycripitation or the hidden will works,they try to build illegal world by thier legal stuff.
sorry, but it is really disapointed matter.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HTC themselves said it: We can't live with 'em, and we can't live without 'em !
In other words: They're not going to do anything since any Action against this site will seriously harm the Windows Mobile Community.
So, as the-equinoxe said, as long as your ROM does not contain warez, you can post it here, and download the ROMs of others as well without fearing a reprimand for it...

the-equinoxe said:
Uhh, I really advise you to read the OP again..
Microsoft is NOT to blame, it was a moron IMPERSONATING MS.
Please refrain from bashing Microsoft, or we will be forced to invoke your right to use a WinMo device and will convict you to use an iPhone
BTW You are free to post ANY ROM (provided they don't contain warez).
They won't be removed (until a true complaint from MS or HTC arrives).
Regards,
EquinoXe
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So, being this said, why not remove the fake email's posted on Sun_Dream's thread, and perhaps, if there is a way, restore all the info that was deleted, to show appreciation for his work. I think that would be the best way to apologize for the action taken(which at the time was justified based on the unknown/unconfirmed veracity of those emails, and as a precaution to protect XDA), and welcome back Sun_Dream.(not that he was banned, but we all know how uncomfortable he must have felt.

Well i want just to comment the legitimacy of rom modifying. It is illegal but noone cares. Microsoft cares about leaked betas but not too much as you see - they can afford few leaks here and there, but they can not afford to loose such large community of beta tersters and developers (a massive feedback for roms and devices) - and it is for free for them so thats why they do not care. Microsoft takes money for licensing their mobile OS to OEM manifacturers and Operators. One as these OEM manifacturers is HTC, their reason to not care is that forums like xda-developers makes them popular - free advertising - if they cut the rom upgrades and ban rom cooking they risk bad advertising and sales drop, why they should loose money instead of making them ?! Also some other phone manifacturers have turned to WM - SonyEricsson, Samsung (with OMNIA series, the other ones were crap) they feel whats happening and they want a piece of the pie . Why mobile operators do not care ? Well they buy some licenses for their branded devices and in most cases the mnifacturer makes the rom and the operator makes the customization. No one takes measures because in the long run it will harm their profits.
Someone may ask: Why it is illegal i have license for my device? - The license is for one and only one version of Windows mobile + upgrades of the same version. You may upgrade to new WM major version only if your OEM or Operator offer you a upgrade.
So we @ xda-developers make things which operators and OEMs will not do, this makes people happy and Microsoft is happy because of rapid growing popularity of windows mobile (more popularity = more profits), OEM's are happy about the popularity of their devices so everyone is happy
I am really sleepy so please excuse me if i have any typos or misstakes

So, I guess this infamous internet investigator was a hoax after all, huh? I guess it did sound a little far fetched that M$ would hire someone and would give him/her a dumbas$ title like that.
In any case, I completely agree with xplode's statement. M$ doesn't necessarily make much advertising on their WM platforms and equipment manufacturers don't spend that much money on advertising their stuff either. In fact, HTC is just beginning to have some sort of advertising (public kind like TV commercials and such) in the US. I gotta be honest, if it wasn't for this site, I would not know that HTC ever made anything beyond the Wallaby, which BTW I didn't know was manufactured by HTC until I nearly bricked it and found this site.
Just think about this for a second. Think about the number and size of forums and blogs dedicated to WM vs iPhone, Symbian, and BlackBerry. And now compare that to the money spent in advertising of the same devices. More than likely, Apple would top the charts in spending since everyone out there was literally brainwashed by the iPhone's outstanding marketing campaign. The Blackberry has always been out there somewhat competing with WM, but due to the lack of interest of freelance developers out there for these devices, they have had to dump big chunks of cash into advertising.
To put things more into perspective, think about how the announcements by HTC show up in this site right after being made by them. Normally, within a few hours the WM communities will get winds of new devices coming this way... which is, for lack of a better term, free advertising. They create a big expectation among seasoned users and new comers alike. Some of them, even willing to dump large sums of money on the new devices even though theirs are only a few months old. For this same reason, (and once again, I agree with xplode) shutting us (and other communities down) would be like cutting an arm. Plus, they don't pay us, so what's the harm?
Aside from all that, M$ understand that not everyone will have money to upgrade devices as they are released, but if the customer is kept happy, he/she is more likely to be a returning customer when his/her situation allows. So, let them keep their betas and their leaks.
All in all, kudos to M$ and HTC for understanding our role in this game. And as far as James "Jacka$$" Young, go kill yourself... you and people like you are the reason why the internet has a bad rep these days.
EGZ

markanthonypr said:
So, being this said, why not remove the fake email's posted on Sun_Dream's thread, and perhaps, if there is a way, restore all the info that was deleted, to show appreciation for his work. I think that would be the best way to apologize for the action taken(which at the time was justified based on the unknown/unconfirmed veracity of those emails, and as a precaution to protect XDA), and welcome back Sun_Dream.(not that he was banned, but we all know how uncomfortable he must have felt.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for bringing this into attention.
As there where many threads "purged" by the site admins (who are the ones who deal with the copyright cases), I have no idea which posts in which threads all need to be restored.
I have seen some of sun_dreams work I and I was impressed (and that is a difficult thing to achieve).
They deserve to be restored. (So I just restored the one containing the letter myself)
Please use the
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button in the threads to report those threads who have wrongly been purged but not yet repaired, so the mods can repair those threads where possible.
Use a text like "Please restore this 6.5 ROM post which was a victim of the James Young hoax, but was not yet repaired" to let us mods and the admins know why you are reporting a thread.
In regards to these threads, please have some patience, it was a big task to purge them, unpurging is sometimes even more difficult.
Especially for a poor mod
Regarding this thread: I can safely say that your complaints have been heard and are acted upon.
Please report other threads/post regarding the 6.5 ROMs using the above mentioned method so all the mods and the admins are notified, not only the few who read this thread.
That is why I close this thread: to make sure that every report get it's fair hearing, and not only by the few who read this thread.
With Kind Regards,
EqX

How do we get HTC to release the EVO source code faster?

Any suggestions as to the best way to harass HTC into releasing the EVO source code quicker?
Send them e-mails or phone calls? Call Sprint and ask for it?
Can we do something like the campaign we tried for the FPS issue?
Thanks.
Per zonyl on page 2:
I managed to get Linux source for the Sharp Zaurus within a week and a half and Im sure following the same playbook will speed up the process with HTC as well. Hopefully I will have some time next week to do this, but the more the merrier! The more people call and contact legal the more attention it will get.
The plan:
- Call HTC corporate
HTC America
13920 SE Eastgate Way, Suite 400
Bellevue, Washington 98005
Tel: 425-679-5318
- Ask for representative in Legal Department (Tell them it is regarding potential litigation)
- Get legal representative's contact information before or immediately after being transferred.
- Politely ask for disclosure of GPL/Linux source code per section 3 of the GPL for the device they manufactured and that you purchased. (You may need to explain a little as they generally have no idea what this is. Doesnt matter much though as they still wont understand but make sure you explain its something that their engineering folks are liable for)
- Give them the GPL (by fax) http://www.linux.org/info/gnu.html The license is even on the phone itself (Menu->Settings->About Phone->Legal Information->Open Source). Scroll down and you will see the linux kernel GPL
- Give them a written request (by fax) "Dear Sir or Madam, ..... Requesting Source for my product in compliance with GPL Section 3-a ... Thank you...."
- They will tell you they need some time to figure it out.... Give them about a week and call back (they will try to ignore you on the first call in hopes you go away)
- Call back using the representatives contact info. Ask them for the status.
- If they are stalling ask for the legal address to list as a defendant on a lawsuit for breach of contract and will be demanding "An Order of Specific Performance" to release the code. (BE POLITE! BUT FIRM) (This will definitely get their attention!)
- Wait a few days. Someone from engineering with a foreign accent will call you with information on when / where the source will be released.
- If this doesnt get anywhere, we can talk about the process of starting a lawsuit without paying lawyer. When HTC is served legal papers for discovery, Im pretty sure they will comply.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

lolz mclollerson said:
Any suggestions as to the best way to harass HTC into releasing the EVO source code quicker?
Send them e-mails or phone calls? Call Sprint and ask for it?
Can we do something like the campaign we tried for the FPS issue?
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It seems no amount of begging ever makes them release code faster. Even legal threats failed before (not for the Evo, but its the same thing)
They know they have to release it by this point. They will do it, but on their own schedule. Pushing them to do it sooner hasn't gotten us anywhere before & I don't see it helping here either.

Damn, that's pretty disappointing.
Thanks for the heads up. :-/

I was actually talking to a guy from HTC earlier today about releasing the source. He told me that they will release it but he does not know when.

gman8966 said:
I was actually talking to a guy from HTC earlier today about releasing the source. He told me that they will release it but he does not know when.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Information content of this mesage: 0%.
Of course they will release it, the GPL requires them to do so. But then again they are already violating it every day they don't release it, so maybe they will just say f*ck it.

Bring a class action suit if you're really worried about it, you won't make any $, lawyer will get rich -- but maybe, just maybe it will hit HTC hard enough to realize they can't jerk the Open Source Community around and they are bound by the same laws as everyone else.

midri said:
Bring a class action suit if you're really worried about it, you won't make any $, lawyer will get rich -- but maybe, just maybe it will hit HTC hard enough to realize they can't jerk the Open Source Community around and they are bound by the same laws as everyone else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why do people always come up with this?
You have no standing to sue anyone over this. Copyright holders in the Linux kernel, *they* have standing to sue someone over this.
The GPL says they have to make the source available, but it's not for you to use legal means to force them to do it.
Class action? Who's the affected class? The people who bought the Evo? Not hardly.

A class action that will hurt HTC? make them reconsider releasing Android phones? you might get a short term benefit of getting source code (well, not really, since the law suit will take longer) but in the long term, the Android community will just lose one of it's biggest supporters

I really think sprint is to blame for this you notice all of the source is availed for just about every other phone except the .29 heroc kernel and the evo kernel makes ya wonder if they are playing a part

If the source isn't out by my 30 days (7/6), it's going back. There's no excuse for being so cavalier with copyrights. Ironic considering they just launched a legal campaign against Shipped ROMs.

What we need is for a high profile e-zine to write an article.
-------------------------------------
Sent via the XDA Tapatalk App

What we need is for HTC to stop acting like Apple just because they finally have a phone that can compete with the iPhone. I don't care if this damn thing files my taxes and makes breakfast for me, if they can't respect the GPL they sure as hell aren't going to keep a cent of my money.

I've contacted HTC and Sprint... not luck... you can search my posts if you really want to read the responses.... I even contacted the FSF (I think they are the copyright holders for Linux Kernel for Linus) and no response from them... so eh yeah we just wait

Apparently you didnt have a Hero. The only thing you can do is wait...

What we really need to do is to start a twitter bombarding campaign like the Sprint hero users did. It took a bit, but it did work.

troyboytn said:
What we really need to do is to start a twitter bombarding campaign like the Sprint hero users did. It took a bit, but it did work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1 for this

How long did it take for the Hero's source to be released?

caryroberts1 said:
How long did it take for the Hero's source to be released?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
3+ Months...Phone dropped in October, source came out in January.

PikkonX said:
3+ Months...Phone dropped in October, source came out in January.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That just makes me even more angry.

I have obtained some super secretive information that can help us get the edge. Through hours of undercover work and social engineering I have discovered that the HTC Engineers are partial to Ben & Jerry's Half Baked ice cream.
I urge all of you to start a letter writing campaign to Ben & Jerry's urging them to exchange 10 pallets of ice cream for the source code. If we can't convince Ben & Jerry's that our charity is worthwhile, then we need to start raising money to buy it ourselves.
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I've never asked this forum for anything, but I am asking now..

Help our Community - stop akaskriller - #NeverAgain Rd. 2 ** 1:30 AM EST

Very important:
Respect the rules of XDA.. post like you thought about it, not out of rage.
I do not want to promote/help this guy.
There is a fine line between this and simply informing people.
I think the latter is worth the risk.
OP was cleaned up since its getting so much attention now
5/17/11 synopsis:
The Android Community rallied. A lot was accomplished. But, we haven't succeeded.
Make Wednesday even better. Tweet, write articles and submit them to sites, post on facebook, just do something.
Site was/is down... but because he took it down for maintenance. Not his ISP shutting him down.
ARTICLES PUBLISHED FROM OUR EFFORTS (And growing....):
UncutAndroid published it first, they tell it how it is and let users speak their mind.
AndoidSPIN Much respect for them too!
Voice Of Android Found me a new site!
RESULTS?!?!
His site is currently down...
Our developers (some who have not been around in a long time) and some who used to feud are ALL working together
and of course the below work...
Thanks to the community and XDA user andyharney we have ("You are" is directed at akaskriller, obviously):
You are in breach of Apache Software License Version 2 & GNU General Public License Version 2.
You are in breach of your AdSense account by hosting copyrighted material, you have been reported
You have been reported to Gameloft for hosting their pirated/warez apps, they have notified their legal dept.
You have been reported to your web host for hosting & distributing pirated/warez apps.
You have been reported to Paypal for profiteering off pirated/warez apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
WAIT, WHAT'S GOING DOWN?
Recently in one of my guides, a user who apparently did not understand the intent of the thread, starting going off on me that my thread should be deleted... and started singing the praises of AkaSkriller. I thought this guy was a thing of the past. Nope, he has only gotten bigger.
Most people know this guy is a Fraud... he takes the work of our developers (roms, themes, free/paid apps and posts it on his site... behind a $5 donate wall ( $5/month for ACCESS to others work ).
Read some of the below posts where developers have already posted conversations with this guy.... it's sad panda time here.
Not enough, read the lashing he took trying to "apologize" *fake/lying*
Master (Axura ROM) stated that he spoke with AkaSkriller about removing his ROM and he was told he would simply edit the build.prop as to be a different ROM... as if by editing this, it was somehow no longer Master's work!! Since then, there are just more developers supporting this....
This outraged me. I truly respect ALL of our developers, and this is just ONE example of probably 100's where this guy and his site have taken advantage of those in our community who are NOT familiar.
Sooooo........
I propose we do ANOTHER #NeverAgain Twitter campaign where we send out tweets telling people to not use this guys site... we inform people the $5 "donate" for access to files is absurd... and we try and point people to sites like XDA!
A place where we are truly geared to helping our developers/community
(not to make money off noobs).
Here is his site. I only link to it so you can see just how absurd it is. DO NOT give this guy any of your money.
ACTION:
Send out a tweet about it...
Post on your Facebook about it....
Email or send a tweet to other Android sites and ask them to tweet about it....
Sample Tweet (copy and paste if you like):
Sites requiring a donation for access to others work is wrong. Read this: http://goo.gl/l7vSO
I realize some of you think this is crazy/pointless. But it bothers me to have an element like that in a community I really do love.
And yes, I have a "Donate to Me" button. Only because someone volunteered to give me a donation before I had a link.
I've received MAYBE $30... imagine how much I could make on a site like that (near 600 thanks and I am NOT a developer)!
lets play the "I see $5 this many times" game... Maybe just a "thanks button" would work? Nagh, lets make a whole section.
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...

We could also warn new users/subscribers of his YouTube account by posting comments on his profile page/videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/akaskriller
Edit: I found his real name (David Barkley) and his Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/akamilkweed?sk=wall) if anyone wants to go an evil route, use social engineering, etc to screw with him outside of the internet as revenge.

Good stuff. I may need to edit the title. I don't want to HURT him, more just want to prevent people new to Android/unfamiliar to think what he is doing is acceptable.
Posting on social media its a great tool, inc twitter/facebook/youtube, etc
I have asked popular android blogs to write about it today, here is hoping they care about the community as much as I do.

I'm on board, for no other reason than he charges for people to be able to get to his DL section to get his kanged and stolen roms. That, asking for payment, as per the Apache Open Source Licensing agreement that binds all Android OS builds, is absolutely illegal.
Edit - posted to my facebook, I was emailing with an admin on AndroidSpin yesterday, going to email him now and see if he will get this posted on AndroidSpin
Edit - AndroidSpin admin emailed

Here is some of what he has said to me via email in the past.
"you have put my life and my family life in danger" (How exactly would I have done that..?)
"my post have been change and now ill just really right all the roms u post and make them mine"
..and when I asked him to take the pirated apps off of his site he replied.
"sir thos are all app that are in 4share.com so go bug them ok
your mean"
"dude calm down hater"

I m on board I looked around on his website........... he is just copying other people stuff...........
These type of guys .....they are like weeds in my yard. Always popping up.
Remember all the hurt and problems He will now have are a result of his actions not ours.

Master™ said:
Here is some of what he has said to me via email in the past.
"you have put my life and my family life in danger" (How exactly would I have done that..?)
"my post have been change and now ill just really right all the roms u post and make them mine"
..and when I asked him to take the pirated apps off of his site he replied.
"sir thos are all app that are in 4share.com so go bug them ok
your mean"
"dude calm down hater"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Whoa, there's a voice I haven't heard in a while. How ya been?

Master™ said:
Here is some of what he has said to me via email in the past.
"you have put my life and my family life in danger" (How exactly would I have done that..?)
"my post have been change and now ill just really right all the roms u post and make them mine"
..and when I asked him to take the pirated apps off of his site he replied.
"sir thos are all app that are in 4share.com so go bug them ok
your mean"
"dude calm down hater"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He could use some lessons in grammar and syntax as well..........

Youtube account
I posted this message on his Youtube subscription page:
"All this guy does is STEAL other developer's work and put it behind a paywall. Don't believe me? Go to XDA forums and find all these ROMs and support for FREE!!!"
It may get deleted, but if everyone on here does the same, it will warn all the noobs that something is up.

I've reached my Thanks limit.. but truly grateful. I feel with enough social media effort we can really help.
For those not familar, my first #NeverAgain campaign was against Samsung.... shortly after, I received calls from them, they were following me on twitter and VERY soon after Froyo was given to us via kies.
my point? To my surprise, it really did work in my opinion (and others).

oka1 said:
He could use some lessons in grammar and syntax as well..........
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He does that on purpose. I've also had email conversations with him in the past when the first round of threads started about him. He pretends to not speak very good English. But just have a listen to his video, he seems to speak pretty good English in fact.
He will pretend to be a nice guy. Months ago during our email conversation, I talked him into making an apology thread here, which he did. I told him no one is trying to hurt him, Devs just want their credit.
This is the best thing we can do, just warn any new commers to not go and get robbed $5 a month for his stolen ROMS.

eminembdg said:
He does that on purpose. I've also had email conversations with him in the past when the first round of threads started about him. He pretends to not speak very good English. But just have a listen to his video, he seems to speak pretty good English in fact.
He will pretend to be a nice guy. Months ago during our email conversation, I talked him into making an apology thread here, which he did. I told him no one is trying to hurt him, Devs just want their credit.
This is the best thing we can do, just warn any new commers to not go and get robbed $5 a month for his stolen ROMS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly... our community is exponentially growing... people will continue to fall for this trap.

s15274n said:
I've reached my Thanks limit.. but truly grateful. I feel with enough social media effort we can really help.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I hope so, this guy, who blatantly ignores the Licensing laws, seriously gets me out of my ZenDroid, and makes me /rage. I think if we can make this a big enough issue, something may be done by people more powerful than us, like Google who actually releases the software under the Apache Licensing terms. I know thats thinking on a grand scale, but its obvious this guy won't listen to us.

s15274n said:
I've reached my Thanks limit.. but truly grateful. I feel with enough social media effort we can really help.
For those not familar, my first #NeverAgain campaign was against Samsung.... shortly after, I received calls from them, they were following me on twitter and VERY soon after Froyo was given to us via kies.
my point? To my surprise, it really did work in my opinion (and others).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes it does and thank you for the catch and noticing this bad behavior so we all could help arresting it.
.....

I just submitted this to UncutAndroid:
I love Android. I love the Community.
Since my G1 days I have slowly evolved from total noob, to someone who helps answer questions daily on XDA, writing instructional guides, and now testing the waters in app development and theming. The reason I have progressed is the kindness of the community. Every themer/developer I have ever contacted has been so incredibly gracious with their time and sharing their talent. I truly respect these people – and you should too.
I say this so bluntly only because it’s that passion that fuels the article.
There are also many bad elements to the Android Community. The most notable in my opinion are the 3rd party paid app sites AND sites like www.akaskriller.com. I want to focus on the latter, but feel the need to point out those 3rd party app sites give you “free” paid apps, but they also give you App Permissions not requested by the original app – they are malicious.
Please do not be a self-inflicted victim over $0.99. You are on this site, you are smarter than that.
Back to my real intent here. For those not familiar, akaskriller is a site that has a nice front – and that is what it is, a front. They appear to be very genuine and caring, they act like they are helping developers, and they act like they want to help the Android noob.
Nothing could be further from the truth. They want money – money for others work.
Sites that offer others work (ROMs & Themes) behind a $5 donate wall (yes, you pay to get access) are wrong people. Not just wrong for those new to Android – those who genuinely need help and do not know better. But more importantly, it is wrong for the developers who work so hard to improve our phones, at no cost to us.
I am no expert on Apache/Licensing but I would have to assume paying/donating $5 for free software is wrong on a larger scale than I know how to address.
Those familiar with the Samsung Vibrant may recall a movement I suggested. It was called “#NeverAgain Samsung.” I proposed a social media blitz where we told Samsung on Twitter, blogs, Facebook and YouTube that we would not continue to buy their products if they would treat the Android Community the way they did – withholding updates and source.
Shortly after the movement started (and it grew FAST), I received calls from Samsung and they were following me on twitter Froyo and source was given to us via Kies. Perhaps due to our combined community efforts.
I am suggesting we have another outcry - an outcry that our community will not tolerate this. Let the community know this is wrong. I will not be formal and say “do this,” but do something.
Tweet about it, post on Facebook… heck, just tell a developer you appreciate them.
Since mentioning the idea of one developer has told me when he requested his ROM be removed from the site, he was told that they would simply change the build.prop so it was a “new ROM.” Taking away the work this developer did and making it their own.
This is wrong. Do something.
I am s15274n on XDA and you can find me on Twitter @CallipH. If you are noob and you want help, ask me and I will tell you if I can help, for free.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

s15274n said:
I just submitted this to UncutAndroid:
I love Android. I love the Community.
Since my G1 days I have slowly evolved from total noob, to someone who helps answer questions daily on XDA, writing instructional guides, and now testing the waters in app development and theming. The reason I have progressed is the kindness of the community. Every themer/developer I have ever contacted has been so incredibly gracious with their time and sharing their talent. I truly respect these people – and you should too.
I say this so bluntly only because it’s that passion that fuels the article.
There are also many bad elements to the Android Community. The most notable in my opinion are the 3rd party paid app sites AND sites like www.akaskriller.com. I want to focus on the latter, but feel the need to point out those 3rd party app sites give you “free” paid apps, but they also give you App Permissions not requested by the original app – they are malicious.
Please do not be a self-inflicted victim over $0.99. You are on this site, you are smarter than that.
Back to my real intent here. For those not familiar, akaskriller is a site that has a nice front – and that is what it is, a front. They appear to be very genuine and caring, they act like they are helping developers, and they act like they want to help the Android noob.
Nothing could be further from the truth. They want money – money for others work.
Sites that offer others work (ROMs & Themes) behind a $5 donate wall (yes, you pay to get access) are wrong people. Not just wrong for those new to Android – those who genuinely need help and do not know better. But more importantly, it is wrong for the developers who work so hard to improve our phones, at no cost to us.
I am no expert on Apache/Licensing but I would have to assume paying/donating $5 for free software is wrong on a larger scale than I know how to address.
Those familiar with the Samsung Vibrant may recall a movement I suggested. It was called “#NeverAgain Samsung.” I proposed a social media blitz where we told Samsung on Twitter, blogs, Facebook and YouTube that we would not continue to buy their products if they would treat the Android Community the way they did – withholding updates and source.
Shortly after the movement started (and it grew FAST), I received calls from Samsung and they were following me on twitter Froyo and source was given to us via Kies. Perhaps due to our combined community efforts.
I am suggesting we have another outcry - an outcry that our community will not tolerate this. Let the community know this is wrong. I will not be formal and say “do this,” but do something.
Tweet about it, post on Facebook… heck, just tell a developer you appreciate them.
Since mentioning the idea of one developer has told me when he requested his ROM be removed from the site, he was told that they would simply change the build.prop so it was a “new ROM.” Taking away the work this developer did and making it their own.
This is wrong. Do something.
I am s15274n on XDA and you can find me on Twitter @CallipH. If you are noob and you want help, ask me and I will tell you if I can help, for free.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Very well said. I would urge you to submit that as an article to AndroidSpin as well. I haven't had the time to type up anything as eloquent as the way you put it.

I put a post about this on the edt site. Helping out in anyway I can. I would blow him up with social network sites, but I don't belong to any.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA Premium App

Br1cK'd said:
Very well said. I would urge you to submit that as an article to AndroidSpin as well. I haven't had the time to type up anything as eloquent as the way you put it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ahh, I hit them up on twitter but I just submitted the article to them as well. Good call, they are very good to the Vibrant forums.
^ Thanks for posting on EDT man!!

Thank you all for informing us of this situation. It really makes me mad to see someone take what someone else has worked so hard on, and try and make it there "own". I really appreciate all the hard work our dev's do, and donate and pay for apps.
Have posted on Twitter.
thanks again for the information!

I didn't realize AkaSkriller was such a great themer!

Developer Edition Community Stretch Goals

*This thread is about discussing the future of the Dev Edition as it pertains to the relationship between us and Samsung, and what we need from them. This thread will also contain official updates and information from my contacts at Samsung corporate.*
Ladies and gentlemen, I'm back home and able to respond again in regards to the DE situation. As you all know I had dedicated time to dealing with corporate on the matter of getting our phones in stock and working on other stretch goals such as software support. I told you all that Monday would be a good day but to be honest I had a feeling that we wouldn't have had our products shipped until Tuesday. I have a few ideas as to why this is the case, but more importantly I would like to emphasize and state something very important in regards to our participation in the developer program.
In all my dealings with the project managers and corporate wigs at Samsung I represented the cause on behalf of our community which no one there had heard of. I explained to them the importance and the legacy of XDA Developers, but most of all I made sure to tell them about the tight-knit community that helps each other out, the portal of people who band together in solidarity to raise support for developers, leaders, products. Most importantly I told them that not only does this credo bind us as a small group of users, but that the most important phone advancements come from communities like ours.
With that being said, we have a prime opportunity to make history by influencing their developer program in in a positive way. For that we need everyone to please be civil and respectful when dealing with Samsung customer service at the mobile accessories department. It is not their fault these phones were not ready to go out and they are willing to make it right. I say this as someone with an overnight order that not only didn't go out until today, but went out as ground shipping instead for Monday. There are hundreds of us, many calling in, and the last thing we need is to turn this into a clustercluck. The more positive we make this experience, the better.
I promised it would be a good holiday weekend with the Note 4 so take the time to enjoy it. The delay does push us back a bit on our goals. Tomorrow I will get to the bottom of this and hopefully get you an official explanation. Though we are delayed a bit, the volume of sales was larger than I expected initially which means that we now have a larger community. As one of "The First 40" from last month, we only had a couple of threads and not too much going on. I want to change that and so I will reach out to the mods and see if we can get our own space to collaborate and work together. This requires teamwork and participation as well as patience and a dash of happiness.
My contacts at Samsung see our numbers as leverage to get the things we really want, like support and original firmware as well as possible future updates. There's a lot riding on this so we can't mess it up. I can't delve into specifics about everything I've discussed with them but we may be looking at changing the way vendors officially view unlocked bootloaders and custom roms.
I've drawn up what in my experience is a good map of where to go from here with the product. If you have any input and information, this is the thread to add to the Developer Edition project pipeline. I can't believe we have to do the work for them and we aren't even paid for this, though someone's got to do it or else none of us are getting the full product experience we paid hundreds of dollars for.
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Any questions/concerns/goal ideas/requests here. This should be a good starting map of where to go from here. It is imperative that we all have our units, and we all have the safety net needed to not brick our units which is why Goal 2 is so important. Then we can go on to have custom ROMs. We'll need to collaborate but for now we will enjoy the device this week and figure out what you'd like to see out of the future with Samsung and the dev program.
Sincerely,
Virgil Woods

Reserved for Goal 1 Updates
Update 1: With a one day delay, many of us are getting the phones and it's now out of stock again. Great work, I doubt we will have an idea of when it will be back in stock until next week because of the holidays.
Please take a moment to answer this one question survey on whether you were able to order a DE or you want to and are waiting on the back-order. This will give us a good head count for demand.
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1uf...8JgFisXC4/viewform?c=0&w=1&usp=mail_form_link
Thank you.

Reserved for Goal 2 Updates

Reserved for Goal 3 Updates

How about a program similar to HTC? This would solve almost all problems without even having another sku..

I just looked over the HTC dev program, it's pretty simple and easy to implement something similar but on a smaller scope as a test. The only problem I see with Samsung rejecting the release of the files we need is that it could be used on non-DE models to make them DE editions as we noticed with the latest shipping. Remember, Samsung is still a business and not our buddies so they need a fiscal motivation to compete with HTC, which we've shown them with this high demand. So far they have been painfully ignorant of growing demands and I would attribute it to them not knowing how to properly implement/make money off of this.

I understand what you are saying but why have a developer edition period. If you are talking from a Fiscal standpoint, why does it matter who unlocks the bootloader. I guarantee that they lose sales to HTC because people want root. Nexus and HTC are gaining popularity as Samsung is losing popularity. Verizon and AT&T are losing sales and T-mobile is gaining sales.
People don't want to have to pay full retail when they can upgrade and unlock the retail version...
Here is another consideration, why should someone who pays full retail price for the retail version not be able to unlock the bootloader. It's not Samsung who owns the device... Samsung is greedy for the money... If you give the customer what they deserve that in itself will increase sales.
Why don't you pitch that idea to them. Give the consumer the choice, what Samsung has done was push away customers and make us Angry.. I applaud HTC, they did it right

Hi Virgil, here's a problem I see with your approach. Samsung knows all to well that the huge majority of people buying the Developer Edition of their phones are not developers. They are everyday users who are willing to pay the extra money for a phone they can install a custom recovery on and root. I don't know the statistics for sure, but I would bet that 98% of the Developer Edition Note 4 (for instance) sales have been generated by everyday users...not developers.
I've bought 3 developer devices from Samsung previously. With each previous purchase there was a questionnaire that you had to complete (obviously designed for developers) before your order would be processed. That questionnaire was/is not present in the sales "process" for the Note 4. A developer program is a great idea, but won't go far without real, no kidding developers.
If we want to give Samsung a reason to take our "developer community" serious then we need to find a whole lot of developers.

The whole developer thing is dumb...I own a Dev N3. You have to pay full retail for a device that will never get any updates or any stock firmware package to fall back on. Each dev bootloader has its own signature that is device specific, so there is no way to upgrade the bootloader without a dev specifically signing it to your device. I am running 4.4 Alliance build 2 on a 4.3 bootloader and because of that I have a few small quirks with youtube and bluetooth. Not a huge deal but it irks me.
Samsung should just allow you to have the choice to unlock your bootloader via fastboot at the cost of a voided warranty. Samsung once had the Smartphone market by the ballz. Now they are losing ground.

Sorry guys and girls we need to wait a few days for the Samsung internal team to decide upon the expansion of the developer program before we can begin to see any changes. I was told by the project director that there will be an internal meeting this week and our suggestions have been taken to account. I'm sorry I have nothing better for the community for now. I really want that original firmware most of all so we can begin developing.
Stay tuned and thanks again.
Sincerely,
Virgil Woods

VirgilWoods said:
Sorry guys and girls we need to wait a few days for the Samsung internal team to decide upon the expansion of the developer program before we can begin to see any changes. I was told by the project director that there will be an internal meeting this week and our suggestions have been taken to account. I'm sorry I have nothing better for the community for now. I really want that original firmware most of all so we can begin developing.
Stay tuned and thanks again.
Sincerely,
Virgil Woods
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi Virgil,
Just wanted to say "Thanks" for doing this. It's nice to hear updates from someone who actually does have some inside knowledge even if a particular update is just that we are being heard and more info may come later.

Yeahp THANK YOU

VirgilWoods said:
Sorry guys and girls we need to wait a few days for the Samsung internal team to decide upon the expansion of the developer program before we can begin to see any changes. I was told by the project director that there will be an internal meeting this week and our suggestions have been taken to account. I'm sorry I have nothing better for the community for now. I really want that original firmware most of all so we can begin developing.
Stay tuned and thanks again.
Sincerely,
Virgil Woods
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for your persistance, Virgil. If you can get them to release firmware for the Developer Edition Note 4 you will have promoted yourself from Liason to "The Man".

Motorola Failure to Meet Update Commitments; Petition.

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As many owners of Motorola's Atrix, Atrix HD, Moto E and other models know all too well...
- Motorola has not maintained an organized or regular update cycle for their devices.
- Motorola has repeatedly broken vague promises and hard commitments to update devices.
- This includes cases where the updates were promised on the Motorola website.
- This includes a case where the update was released with details posted on-line but was not actually delivered to the devices stated.
- There has been an instance where an OTA that was a 5.0.x update was displayed as 5.1.x when being installed.
- Some of the affected devices are not service provider branded (just Moto) so Motorola cannot blame the SP as they have in the past.
Picking up on an idea considered when Motorola backed out of their commitment to update the Atrix HD to Lollipop last year, an on-line petition has been created to let Motorola know this is not right. It is focused on the Moto E but is crafted so it can be signed by anyone who has been betrayed by Motorola's failed update commitments or want to see a better way of handling updates. If there is any resolution as a result of this petition, it is unlikely to extend far but we can still let them know about it.
https://www.change.org/p/motorola-f...utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink
Of course feel free to share details about pertinent experiences here in this thread but if you want Motorola to hear it, sign the petition and share the link to it. Also, For the Moto E you can make it known here at the Moto thread where details about the Moto E update are posted https://forums.motorola.com/posts/83391de77a?page=1.
Motorola once was, and should still be, capable of better than this!
------------------------------------
Nov 1, 2016, Greetings:
Motorola. Has finally updated most of the Moto E line to Android Marshmallow. Even some of the devices thought to be left off the update list (such as US retail single sim XT1511) eventually got Marshmallow, although sadly only after many boot-loaders were unlocked. Also, this Change.org petition for Moto E has been automatically closed (naturally expired), which was timely because it serves no purpose anymore, so I'll leave it expired and will ask to have this thread closed. I thank all who participated with signatures or in spirit. It was small in scope but every little bit helps.
One last thing: Although Moto E has been updated, Motorola has not mended it's poor updating ways and have done something similar (even worse by many measures) to yet another device, the Moto G3. There is a petition for that described in this thread: http://forum.xda-developers.com/2015...sprey-t3476321 which I encourage all affected to sign.

You should probably post this in AF also, if you've not already dine so.
Sent from my XT1526 using Tapatalk

starkly_raving said:
You should probably post this in AF also, if you've not already dine so.
Sent from my XT1526 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you mean Android Forums, I've dug up some links to old posts of mine there (or was it Android Central, I don't recall) but they did not seem like good spots for this. Still, it's a good idea. I should be able to find a suitable place at other forums, and am open to specific recommendations. Also, everyone should feel free to share the link to the petition.

Signed and shared.

IronTechmonkey said:
If you mean Android Forums, I've dug up some links to old posts of mine there (or was it Android Central, I don't recall) but they did not seem like good spots for this. Still, it's a good idea. I should be able to find a suitable place at other forums, and am open to specific recommendations. Also, everyone should feel free to share the link to the petition.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe post on Reddit too? The Android community is pretty big there.

Signed!

Ace42 said:
Maybe post on Reddit too? The Android community is pretty big there.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Another good idea. Thanks!

I think you guys shouldnt give a penny to motorola instead of moaning to let them hear your voice. Motorola simply doesnt give the smallest damn about this kind of petitions. Tried and didnt work for numerous times. Dont buy motorola, dont let anyone around you buy motorolas, that is what motorola deserves for their customer relations, marketing and update lies.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using XDA Free mobile app

Semseddin said:
I think you guys shouldnt give a penny to motorola instead of moaning to let them hear your voice. Motorola simply doesnt give the smallest damn about this kind of petitions. Tried and didnt work for numerous times. Dont buy motorola, dont let anyone around you buy motorolas, that is what motorola deserves for their customer relations, marketing and update lies.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using XDA Free mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Boycott is not a bad idea either but that sort of action may actually be harder to organize than efforts like a petition. Have you ever organized a boycott or a petition about this subject? The action of withholding dollars, and the action of creating a petition are not mutually exclusive. Unfortunately many of us already posses these devices and do not have the option to redirect money to a different device at this point but would still like to do something about it. There are no guarantees, but this type of pressure has been made to work before. For me personally, having first used Motorola gear in the form of gray brick shaped walkie talkies and under-dash radios in the 1980s, and since then always being impressed with whatever Motorola device I encountered across a wide range of hardware types; wanting to see Moto do better is part of this. Also, please do note that discouraging the petition and calling it "moaning" in the very thread where it is shared may not go over well.

I miss IDEN.

nobreak1970 said:
I miss IDEN.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What am I missing here?
[EDIT] Oh, I see. You're going old school as well. Nice.

IronTechmonkey said:
Boycott is not a bad idea either but that sort of action may actually be harder to organize than efforts like a petition. Have you ever organized a boycott or a petition about this subject? The action of withholding dollars, and the action of creating a petition are not mutually exclusive. Unfortunately many of us already posses these devices and do not have the option to redirect money to a different device at this point but would still like to do something about it. There are no guarantees, but this type of pressure has been made to work before. For me personally, having first used Motorola gear in the form of gray brick shaped walkie talkies and under-dash radios in the 1980s, and since then always being impressed with whatever Motorola device I encountered across a wide range of hardware types; wanting to see Moto do better is part of this. Also, please do note that discouraging the petition and calling it "moaning" in the very thread where it is shared may not go over well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I haven't organized a petition like this before but participated for atrix 4g ics update and xt910 bootloader unlock petitions back in time, the electronic signs were counted by nearly 10k and motorola didnt give the smallest damn about those, just igroned us. I am not here to discourage anyone but i posted just to say dont bother your precious time to tame a liar company in a friendly manner, not worth it. They dont listen to their customers at all. I also like motorola hardware and that is where it ends for me, everything else in motorola just have the stinkny worst smell of all. Their marketing, service team, software team are all the worst but they used to have good engineers, not sure if they still have them looking at their 2015 portfolio can be called at best pathetic.
Hope you guys get the updates you deserve for your devices though. Just dont buy anything else branded motorola in future, this will teach them better how to behave as a responsible company when they dont see money flowing into their vault.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using XDA Free mobile app

Semseddin said:
.....electronic signs were counted by nearly 10k...
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Click to collapse
10k? To believe that number I would have to have see proof, including the specific details and target/recipient of the petition.
Semseddin said:
. .. I am not here to discourage anyone but i posted just to say dont bother your precious time...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Within one 18 word statement you contradict yourself. If you don't like the food being served then don't pull up to the table. Perhaps you could vent by creating an anti petition petition that discourages people from signing petitions, but whatever you do please take it elsewhere.

Not really surprised by this sadly.

IronTechmonkey said:
10k? To believe that number I would have to have see proof, including the specific details and target/recipient of the petition.
Within one 18 word statement you contradict yourself. If you don't like the food being served then don't pull up to the table. Perhaps you could vent by creating an anti petition petition that discourages people from signing petitions, but whatever you do please take it elsewhere.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Whatever, live your dream. Here is your numbers. Operation mosh, signed by 16k
https://www.change.org/p/motorola-mobility-inc-unlock-all-smartphone-bootloaders-2
Supportmymoto, no numbers but way above 10k supporters and real media support in a pro way.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=32363139#post32363139
Now, you got ur numbers. Those petitions were for phones in premium range above 400$. Motorola just ignored them. You believe motorola would give a damn about your 50$ phone? Good luck with your dreams.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using XDA Free mobile app

Semseddin said:
...Operation mosh, signed by 16k https://www.change.org/p/motorola-mobility-inc-unlock-all-smartphone-bootloaders-2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Impressive that they got 16k and I agree with it in principal but that is a request to unlock bootloader, against which Motorola (and other device manufacturers) are well insulated legally. The same is not necessarily the case for provably failed published commitments to provide a product or service.
Semseddin said:
Supportmymoto, no numbers but way above 10k supporters and real media support in a pro way.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=32363139#post32363139
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A well presented case with good coverage but again, it is for getting an unlocked bootloader which is a steeper uphill battle.
Semseddin said:
....Good luck with your dreams....
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Click to collapse
Thank you for the warm wishes, and for the details of the other actions, which I did find informative, helpful, and actually encouraging (although I still have modest hopes).

i am impressed the poll has 80 / 100 right now cool !
I wouldn't have had to rip my hair out today trying to install v5.1 onto my Moto-E if they update with my oem (Telus)
It sucks because i just wanted to run the stock rom
I got it installed but no matter what i tried i couldn't get the provider connection back for calls/txt's
What a drag too ..i swear it started up and ran fast than 5.0.2 (what i went back to)
Thank god i made a TWRP backup before meddling with things..
So hell yeah i voted
edit:
It's totally stupid they only updated *some of the oem's with 5.1
that is a massive slap in the face to those of us who missed out on v5.1 Lollipop !

I won't buy Motorola any more

Just a bit of an update. The petition now has 120 signatures which tells me that people must be sharing the link. Thanks to everyone who has signed and circulated it! I don't know what that really means in terms of the ability to exert some commercial pressure on Motorola but it does indicate that there are many people impacted by this, especially when you consider that there are likely large #s of people using the affected devices who don't participate in forums like this.
When I first gathered contact information for the petition, Motorola Customer Service provided an email address for the CEO that turned out to be incorrect. Fortunately I had others and sent a test email to see which would be rejected as invalid before creating the petition. Considering that experience, I've started searching outside the Moto support track for names and contact information for all of the Moto executives and departments that I can find to widen the target.
Thanks again to all who've signed, circulated, and provided constructive input.
[EDIT] Shared by user hyzteric at the Moto "excuse making forum" https://forums.motorola.com/posts/83391de77a?commentId=1000234#1000234 is news that the Mote E is still being sold which is really low.
http://www.androidcentral.com/motorola-either-update-moto-e-or-stop-selling-it
I already knew this but had not considered the ramifications. They are still sticking it to new purchasers of those devices. Lower than low!

Semseddin said:
.....
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Click to collapse
Soooo, although we differ on the merits of a petition we are in the same boat (betrayed by Moto) even if we may disagree on how to navigate it, and I must thank you for the details of the actions to which you referred. While hunting down email addresses of Moto's executives I also found the addresses from one of those previous actions. Between the ones I found that were not on that list and the ones from that list we now have a wider target for the petition.
Seriously - Thanks!
One thing I hope we have going for us this time is that it was/is not illegal for Motorola to decline to share their source code, but what they did this time might actually be illegal or at least actionable in a commercial sense.