Database Users

The nature of my remorse

I struggled long and hard with the decision to purchase the EVO. Its competitor for my patronage was the Nexus One on T-Mobile. At last, I made my decision based upon the following criteria: 1) better hardware, 2) better network, and 3) better price. Seems a no brainer, right?
Now that what's done is done, I'm left with a sense of remorse. Over what? Openness. Fortunately, I haven't bricked my Evo yet, but there is a very real possibility that I will at some point. With no open boot loader and a carrier hellbent on closing their system, I have to break into my own phone with a bunch of borrowed hacks, the mechanics of which are about 3 miles over my head.
What was Google really trying to do? By cutting out the carrier from distribution, the carriers don't have an opportunity to bake the system with their garbageware and close the door behind them. By failing to support Google's effort, each of us makes it less likely in some small amount that Google will do this again. We sold them out for a front-facing camera and a bit more screen (with light leak).
Then there we will be on the forums complaining about those evil, freedom-hating carriers. But then, perhaps we chose this and deserve our fates.

If you really were deciding between the nexus one and the evo how come you didn't know the evo was locked .... I mean about just everyone knew this, every single phone but the nexus one its locked from the beginning give it a few days for people to release root, I had a nexus one and couldn't be more happy to have bought the evo I hope you enjoy your phone man
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Sent from my HTC Evo via the XDA Tapatalk App

Rooting isn't THAT hard. Stop being such a drama queen.
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Sent from my EVO 4G using Tapatalk Pro.

TheBiles said:
Rooting isn't THAT hard. Stop being such a drama queen.
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You do realize that we do not have full root--and might not ever have full root, right?
You also realize as time goes on that this will inevitably become more difficult?
As charged as the OP's post is, he does have a point.

aLdaRiS said:
If you really were deciding between the nexus one and the evo how come you didn't know the evo was locked .... I mean about just everyone knew this, every single phone but the nexus one its locked from the beginning give it a few days for people to release root, I had a nexus one and couldn't be more happy to have bought the evo I hope you enjoy your phone man
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Sent from my HTC Evo via the XDA Tapatalk App
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I knew the evo was locked. I was just too caught up in the specs and the excitement. I got greedy. She was hot, so I cheated. Now I'm sober and feel a sense of remorse.

nihilion_Zero said:
I knew the evo was locked. I was just too caught up in the specs and the excitement. I got greedy. She was hot, so I cheated. Now I'm sober and feel a sense of remorse.
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Why don't you just return the phone if this bugs you so much?

Shidell said:
You do realize that we do not have full root--and might not ever have full root, right?
You also realize as time goes on that this will inevitably become more difficult?
As charged as the OP's post is, he does have a point.
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I'm fairly confident that we will get NAND access fairly soon. There is no such thing as an "unhackable" device. Even now, though, it is NOT that difficult to access recovery and easily flash custom ROMs.

Just my two cents, I have only had one android phone and that was the mytouch from t-mobile. I now have the HTC - HD2 and really like it. When it comes to flashing roms, especially for someone new to winmo like me, it can be a bit scary. The developers have a HSPL flash that takes away almost all the risks as long as you use common sense and read things carefully. With that said I did see where a Chef of the HD2 bricked his phone just a few days ago (I have no idea what he was attempting to do when he bricked it but it did make me realize the danger)
Thanks
Derbyman32

Yes, if the remorse is really that bad, take it back. Sprint will refund ALL of your money. Then get the Nexus One for T-Mobile for $179. No-brainer...and the N1 is still an awesome Android phone!

I've seen enough issues on this forum to know that some people have no business flashing a camera, let alone a $500 phone. These are the same people that will install a GSM radio on their CDMA phone, come here and beg for a fix only to be told "sorry, read the instructions next time." They then head to Sprint, shrug, and say "I don't know, it worked fine yesterday" in the hopes of getting the phone replaced under warranty.
I agree with the premise that they are our phones and we should be able to flash whatever we want on them; however, if *I* break my phone, I do not expect Sprint to fix it. Unfortunately, common ethical behavior such as this escapes enough that Sprint made a business decision to make it hard enough so only those competent enough to follow complex procedures succeed in taking ownership of their phones. I get that. I also knew this before buying the phone.
If it's the principle of the matter for you, you can always go back to the N1, but I'd wonder why you're here in the first place.
Me? I have enough faith in this community to undo the locks, and I'll patiently enjoy the marvel of technology the EVO is while shackled until the benefits of rooting outweigh my perceived risks in performing the procedure.
Until then, I have what I consider to be the best handheld computer on the planet. Sorry for being long winded.

jmxp69 said:
Until then, I have what I consider to be the best handheld computer on the planet. Sorry for being long winded.
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I second that emotion! And it can even make the occasional phone call, too!

nihilion_Zero said:
carrier hellbent on closing their system, I have to break into my own phone with a bunch of borrowed hacks, the mechanics of which are about 3 miles over my head.
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I don't think a LESS true statement could be said.
Sprint doesn't give two flying flips what you do with your device. They have never made a move to precent root access, and MANY of the same reps who sell these devices root when it becomes available. The phone comes locked because of security and licensing agreements.
An example for the Evo is QIK. QIK is not made by Sprint, HTC, or Google. It is its own entity who paid HTC and Sprint a great deal of money to bake this app into the firmware. It would be a violation of that agreement to allow you to remove this app by default, therefore Root access is removed.
Android, when rooted, has so many holes in the security that information on the phone (like your contact list!) would in no way be considered safe. Sprint has to make some guarantee for that information, so those holes are filled and Root accessis denied.
However, should you be one of those FEW people competent enough to handle this kind of power, and you understand that Sprint, HTC, and Google will honor to warranty for the device should you break it then go for it. None of these companies will make even a token effort to stop you.
You are, for all intents and purposes, ignored. Software updates will be made as though Root did not exist. Known issues and fixes will be sent to employees and techs as though you did not exist. Features will be advertised as stock that you might no longer have, because you no longer exist.
It's not that the "carrier is bent on closing the system" it's that they are bound be several contracts to not help you.

Droid X has a locked bootloader or "how motorola killed the Droid X for me"

i was really looking forward on getting myself a droid/milestone X/2 when it's available in europe. but i just read that the droidX (and maybe all upcoming motorola devices according to http://community.developer.motorola...OMs-and-Motorola-s-Android-Handsets/ba-p/4224) will have a completely locked bootloader as the original milestone had. it's as of today not possible to flash a custom rom on a >7 month old milestone, how weak is that?!
although i like the hardware of the moto-devices and really wanted one, this is definitly a no-go for me and defeats the purpose of android as a open(source)/linux os! i'm done with motorola, just ordered a galaxy s which is completely open!
i don't believe that motorola cares if 10.000 geeky people won't buy theire device because it's locked but it would nevertheless be good to show them that we care!
i'm curious what others think about that!

I think it's horse**** that they are locking it
I mean what's it to them if we can flash our phones??
Maybe they don't want their rom software to be leaked out? besides that I see no other reason for this

sp1kez said:
I think it's horse**** that they are locking it
I mean what's it to them if we can flash our phones??
Maybe they don't want their rom software to be leaked out? besides that I see no other reason for this
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that's my point. if i buy a piece of hardware, i should own it completely and do with it what i want! also one would think that motorola would (or at least could) appreciate a bunch of developers modding and patching their devices to make them more appealing to the community. i just installed cm6 (froyo) on my htc magic. it works better than ever, how cool is that! would not be possible with a locked bootloader...
example milestone: although no custom rom's can be booted (the bootloader boots only moto-signed kernels) the device can be rooted and so it should be no problem to get a rom-dump. so that can't be the reason...

I was ready to pull the trigger on the Droid X until I heard this. I hate it. You are right, we buy the phone we should own the phone. I still might buy this phone, a vote of confidence to the devs.
I want the large screen. There's nothing out there with as large a screen. The evo, but I've already been burned by that. Maybe if they swap the screen for a better one.

I'm just as angry at Motorola, but I'm still going to purchase a Droid X. It has everything I'm looking for in a phone hardware-wise, and I can't wait any longer to dump the dumbphone I've been using for years. I'm a huge fan of tweaking every piece of technology I have (e.g. hackintosh netbook just for kicks), but I'm going to stick it out with a one-year contract on the Droid X until a better phone comes along.
I've taken a look at the Galaxy S/Fascinate, but it looks far too much like an iPhone to appeal to me, rootable as it may be. Samsung's post-release support is also less than stellar. As closed as Motorola may be by using this bootloader, they are still providing 2.2 to the original Droid this summer, which is more than can be said of a /lot/ of manufacturers.

Yea I had it preordered and everything til I figured out they locked it down, guess they are okay with losing sales by turning unto an apple type company stupid
Sent from my Incredible using XDA App

Mikerrrrrrrr said:
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I've taken a look at the Galaxy S/Fascinate, but it looks far too much like an iPhone to appeal to me, rootable as it may be. Samsung's post-release support is also less than stellar. As closed as Motorola may be by using this bootloader, they are still providing 2.2 to the original Droid this summer, which is more than can be said of a /lot/ of manufacturers.
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i agree. i don't like the iphony-look of the galaxy-s either and i feel like the droid X casing is much more stable. also the omap seemed more appealing to me than samsungs hummingbird. and so on ...
while i think it's a good thing that motorola supports their older devices with updates (at least they do with the droid) my point is/was that a open device enables the community to push the software further ahead. for instance: atm. i still have a htc magic. i just installed cm6 running froyo about a week ago. my device is running better and faster than ever. this would not be possible with a locked bootloader. i would be at the mercy of htc to supply me with an update "sometime in the future", quite frustrating ...
i just don't understand their reasons for this! if it's all just about warranty they could implement a "root and unlock" feature in the settings which would void your warranty e.g. by sending a request to a moto-server or something similar.
maybe it has something to do with drm-stuff as i also wondered that one can only use the (awesome) hdmi-out for self-made media ... kills >50% of the potential of the hdmi-out in my opinion.

jodue said:
i agree. i don't like the iphony-look of the galaxy-s either and i feel like the droid X casing is much more stable. also the omap seemed more appealing to me than samsungs hummingbird. and so on ...
while i think it's a good thing that motorola supports their older devices with updates (at least they do with the droid) my point is/was that a open device enables the community to push the software further ahead. for instance: atm. i still have a htc magic. i just installed cm6 running froyo about a week ago. my device is running better and faster than ever. this would not be possible with a locked bootloader. i would be at the mercy of htc to supply me with an update "sometime in the future", quite frustrating ...
i just don't understand their reasons for this! if it's all just about warranty they could implement a "root and unlock" feature in the settings which would void your warranty ...
maybe it has something to do with drm-stuff as i also wondered that one can only use the (awesome) hdmi-out for self-made media ... kills >50% of the potential of the hdmi-out in my opinion.
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I agree, but as it stands, I'm still going to get the phone and hoping out hope for root, although this link (http://www.mydroidworld.com/forums/...-locked-down-let-me-tell-you-what-i-know.html) has me worried about that too.

Mikerrrrrrrr said:
I agree, but as it stands, I'm still going to get the phone and hoping out hope for root, although this link (http://www.mydroidworld.com/forums/...-locked-down-let-me-tell-you-what-i-know.html) has me worried about that too.
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i hope the best for you mate. maybe it's not that bad and in 2 weeks we are laughing about motorola because some 14 years old hacker has already torn the bootloader apart

I am officially passing on the x droid2 and whatever else Motorola decides to release sorry but I would rather have an open galaxy s than a locked down droidx. IPhone like ui can be changed with a launcher. But their isn't much hope for a double locked bootloader

whoops... has root

Am I wrong to say that the Milestone is still stuck at the OS ver. that it was sold with? And if so, I hear that 2.2 is coming to the X by the end of the summer. I'm sure and exploit can be found in the update process, or hope so.

I'm going to switch to this, simply because I believe that the devs WILL find a way to get around this problem. This is XDA we're talking about, along with a bunch of other communities dedicated to this stuff. Someone will find a way to pull it off, it's just a matter of time. But I plan on having this phone for at least a year, so I have the patience for it.

jodue said:
while i think it's a good thing that motorola supports their older devices with updates (at least they do with the droid) my point is/was that a open device enables the community to push the software further ahead. for instance: atm. i still have a htc magic. i just installed cm6 running froyo about a week ago. my device is running better and faster than ever. this would not be possible with a locked bootloader. i would be at the mercy of htc to supply me with an update "sometime in the future", quite frustrating ...
i just don't understand their reasons for this! if it's all just about warranty they could implement a "root and unlock" feature in the settings which would void your warranty e.g. by sending a request to a moto-server or something similar.
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i think you explained 2 reasons for the lock down.
1 is warranty issues
2 is that motorolla can control the life of their product. if after 2 years they give updating the software then you'll be left in the dust and forced to upgrade if want new features.
it's like dlc for games. what used to be free by modding communities has now become a way to squeeze more money out of gamers.

I also agree with you on point 2. This phone is pretty powerful even for me. I consider myself a power user but dont really see how I need a faster phone that this.
This phone, If completely hacked, can have a very long lifespan.

this takes one moto dev
to be on the modder's side.
All this takes is one dev to mess with an official moto update, and this will be tossed due the massive amount of phones that are bricked.
total BS. Knowing Verizon, and why they were late jump on the android bandwagon(because they couldn't "control" an open source opertaing system), this probably came from Verizon pushing Moto to do this. Moto is so desperate to corner the market(unlike HTC) with Verizon, they said yes'maam. Sure no problem you are giving ungodly sums of money why cant we "scratch" your back.
bull****

Let's say that we DON'T unlock this phone.... Would anyone be surprised to see Motorola keep up to day within months of releases in the future???
I see people mentioning the reasoning for it being locked it to control the life of the device.... But seeing how powerful this is and how it is you could say Moto's Flagship model, wouldn't it be int their best interest to keep their customers happy????
Or does everything sell and do you really think they will fall behind on updates...??

Seriously if you really hate the device being locked this much work on an email. I will be shooting an email over to Motorola and Verizon Wireless Customer Support. I can post the email that I am sending on here if you guys want, when I finish typing it.
As for the device being locked it is extremely sad, but many hardware developers are starting to do this. The thinking is that the more they can control what the user does the better the end experience is. That is hardly the truth so just keep cracking the devices so that they get the message we want our own control on the device.
Other than that good luck to all the dev crews out there working to crack the device.

i second the email plan. if enough people fight for an open device, motorola will listen...

12yan said:
i second the email plan. if enough people fight for an open device, motorola will listen...
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Nope. Every single Droid and Droid X user could email Motorola and they wouldn't care unless it affected sales. The bottom line speaks the loudest. Hell, more than that, it's the ONLY line that speaks

Locked bootloaders...a new trend?

I read that the new Motorola Droid X and Droid 2 will have digitally signed bootloaders. Which means that only approved Motorola ROMS can be flashed. I wonder how long it will be before HTC and everyone else starts doing this? This could put an end to all of our fun! Of course the cellular providers will save a lot of money if they don't have to replace all of those bricked phones. It will be interesting to see what happens to the bootloader in future OTA and Froyo updates for the DInc...

this belongs in general

Lexus One said:
This could put an end to all of our fun!
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It will always be a cat and mouse game. Rarely ever ends. We always find another way around.

We should as a community all patition the cell phone companys for a truely open handset.

acezhi said:
We should as a community all patition the cell phone companys for a truely open handset.
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Petitioning? What are you some kind of tree loving hippie? JK That **** never works though. Petitions, protesting, etc is for idiots who think it will accomplish something.
They are even stupider for locking these down. Sure people mess up phones trying to mod them. Now they are making ways for you to totally brick your phone. Don't they think more people will now make insurance claims even more if you try to mod your phone and mess it up.

Moved as not development.

reagianicparable said:
It will always be a cat and mouse game. Rarely ever ends. We always find another way around.
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Possibly. But it takes a hell of a lot longer when you're up against encryption. You usually only win this battle if someone on the inside leaks the key. And by then there are new phones coming out and this keeps getting lower and lower on the priority list. Personally, I don't think we can win the encryption battle...

its not a new thing its a motorola thing... htc likes to give its buyers what they like.. and since we all like it a little different I dont see them locking their bootloader anytime soon... they made the nexus one which is the only true open source phone so far but they messed up on the marketing of it... all 3 phones you mention are motorola and the only htc phone I see with any kind of restriction would be the HTC aria on ATT cause you can't install 3rd party apps but that is due to ATT not HTC restrictions

two_cents said:
its not a new thing its a motorola thing... htc likes to give its buyers what they like.. and since we all like it a little different I dont see them locking their bootloader anytime soon... they made the nexus one which is the only true open source phone so far but they messed up on the marketing of it... all 3 phones you mention are motorola and the only htc phone I see with any kind of restriction would be the HTC aria on ATT cause you can't install 3rd party apps but that is due to ATT not HTC restrictions
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Granted, HTC *may* never lock their bootloader, but what is to stop Verizon from demanding it? Verizon is permitting it in the Motorola. What if this turns out to be a profit maximizer for them? Could HTC next? Time will tell...

I don't see locking up phones as a way to "make money" if anything it will alienate your customer/developer base and no one will buy the phones with the locked bootloaders. Especially if HTC doesn't trend up and continues to be a nice company. Motorola has already LOST A LOT of preorders on there Droid X because of the encrypted bootloader. Doesn't matter...they can't seem to keep them in stock anyway. Good riddens to a WAY to large handset with a crappy UI overlay.

What it boils down to is PROFIT. Verizon will weigh the revenues and decide with their pocketbooks. It doesn't make any difference whether HTC likes it or not. Verizon calls the shots. If HTC says no, they're gone. Samsung or LG or someone else will pick up the slack. As for losing customers, it doesn't matter. Money is what matters. Just ask any of our greed driven cellular companies if you don't believe me. Personally, I don't think there are that many people who re-flash their ROMS and would care if the bootloader is locked or not. I think we are a very small percentage of the total.

Honestly77 said:
I don't see locking up phones as a way to "make money" if anything it will alienate your customer/developer base and no one will buy the phones with the locked bootloaders. Especially if HTC doesn't trend up and continues to be a nice company. Motorola has already LOST A LOT of preorders on there Droid X because of the encrypted bootloader. Doesn't matter...they can't seem to keep them in stock anyway. Good riddens to a WAY to large handset with a crappy UI overlay.
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I think you may be overestimating the percentage of android users who are interested in rooting their phones. Motorola will make a tiny bit less money on phone sales, but they will also lose less money on unnecessary replacements.

TNS201 said:
Petitioning? What are you some kind of tree loving hippie? JK That **** never works though. Petitions, protesting, etc is for idiots who think it will accomplish something.
They are even stupider for locking these down. Sure people mess up phones trying to mod them. Now they are making ways for you to totally brick your phone. Don't they think more people will now make insurance claims even more if you try to mod your phone and mess it up.
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Just adding to it. Not saying petitioning and protesting would work, but:
Petitioning and protesting only work through fear. When it's you > the company, then the company will give in. If we have 20 thousand people say that we want truly open handsets, they still won't, because they know theres another hundred thousand that will still buy it. If they fear that if having a locked handset will make them no sales unless they give in, then they will.

Motorola tried leaving it unlocked with the Driod, but then, for whatever reasons, they locked the bootloader in the X. Why do you suppose Motorola would do this? Do they have incompetent marketing people? Remember they have the numbers...we don't. So we can only guess as to why they chose the way they did. Perhaps Verizon had something to do with it? I can't wait to see what they do to the bootloader in the next OTA for the DI.

Asterdroid said:
I think you may be overestimating the percentage of android users who are interested in rooting their phones. Motorola will make a tiny bit less money on phone sales, but they will also lose less money on unnecessary replacements.
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I agree with the notion that the vast majority of android users are not interested in rooting their phones; however, i think that the frequency with which carriers replace phones bricked due to customization is overestimated. I mean I have flashed customs ROMs, radios, recovery images, etc. onto my N1 and my DI dozens upon dozens of times and never run into a problem that couldn't be fixed with a battery pull and a restore (at the most). In contrast, I bricked three iphone 3GS's in six months while attempting to customize them. Obviously, apple is notorious for locking their **** down, so I am not convinced that the notion that verizon will have to replace fewer X's than, say, DI's holds water

Shame Motorola, shame!

Maybe Motorola should learn a thing or two from its competitors. I am this close to losing faith in this phone.
http://pulsene.ws/15Zld
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App

So they release the source code to kernels for phones that are over a year old?

LancerV said:
So they release the source code to kernels for phones that are over a year old?
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The Incredible S is not.

LancerV said:
So they release the source code to kernels for phones that are over a year old?
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ha,ha good one

The Incredible S is a new model.

HTC's always been on the up-and-up regarding GPL and posting source code. It doesn't surprise me that Moto has taken a completely opposite stance regarding openness.

agentdr8 said:
HTC's always been on the up-and-up regarding GPL and posting source code. It doesn't surprise me that Moto has taken a completely opposite stance regarding openness.
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I think Motorola takes that stance to make themselves more appealing to the carriers.
If you really think about it, the more "open" carriers like T-Mo and Sprint don't really have any Moto devices.
EDIT: minus the Cliq and Charm, but those are low end.

Not to argue but, Samsung's Galaxy series was on all carriers and could be heavily modded. Not to mention that Samsung included unlock codes in the phone itself for one of their models.
HTC Inspire, Nexus One, Desire/HD/Z, etc were on major carriers.
My guess is that Moto doesn't have the manpower/balls to deal with warranty support for people who brick their phone by rooting. Or they just don't care.

i.mac said:
My guess is that Moto doesn't have the manpower/balls to deal with warranty support for people who brick their phone by rooting. Or they just don't care.
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this should be a non issue. You root the phone, or otherwise modify beyond manufacturer intentions, you void the warranty. case closed.

cegna09 said:
this should be a non issue. You root the phone, or otherwise modify beyond manufacturer intentions, you void the warranty. case closed.
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But people who don't fully understand rooting or the consequences of rooting would contact the manufacturer for a warranty repair/replacements.

i.mac said:
But people who don't fully understand rooting or the consequences of rooting would contact the manufacturer for a warranty repair/replacements.
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and the answer would be the same. That is how it works. If you were dumb enough to try something without fully understanding the consequences if it went wrong, too bad. you should always educate yourself on a topic before delving into it blindly.

i.mac said:
Not to argue but, Samsung's Galaxy series was on all carriers and could be heavily modded. Not to mention that Samsung included unlock codes in the phone itself for one of their models.
HTC Inspire, Nexus One, Desire/HD/Z, etc were on major carriers.
My guess is that Moto doesn't have the manpower/balls to deal with warranty support for people who brick their phone by rooting. Or they just don't care.
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You make a good point but the Galaxy series has only one variant on Verizon and AT&T, whereas, it is making multiple appearances elsewhere.
**This is only referring to Android devices (phones)
Look at Motorola's lineup on Verizon - Droid, D2, DX, Droid Pro, Citrus.....then look at AT&T - Backflip, Flipside, Bravo, Flipout, Atrix.
Now look at Samsung - Verizon: Fascinate and Continuum / AT&T: Captivate
That's 10 - 3 (not including tablets)
Then you can throw in HTC - Verizon: Incredible and Thunderbolt (even though HTC tried to lock down the TB) and AT&T: Inspire and Aria
That's still 10 - 7 in Motorola's favor. (You can't include the N1 because AT&T refused to carry it in their lineup, even so, Motorola still gets the nod)

I definitely do get your point of view. And you bring up a great point that carriers that want to milk you out of your money do like Motorola devices. I wonder though if this is to please the carrier or save there warranty/repair costs. If they do do it to cut costs/risks it directly benefits the carriers. So it works in their advantage both ways.
But, like what happened with Netflix's unwillingness to come to Android, Motorola's steps might pay off. And a lot of people got upset with Netflix's decision and wanted manufactures/carriers to do something about it.
Do we as users just expect too much?

i.mac said:
I definitely do get your point of view. And you bring up a great point that carriers that want to milk you out of your money do like Motorola devices. I wonder though if this is to please the carrier or save there warranty/repair costs. If they do do it to cut costs/risks it directly benefits the carriers. So it works in their advantage both ways.
But, like what happened with Netflix's unwillingness to come to Android, Motorola's steps might pay off. And a lot of people got upset with Netflix's decision and wanted manufactures/carriers to do something about it.
Do we as users just expect too much?
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Just as cegna09 said, if you damage your phone through rooting/modding, you void the warranty so it would only seem that they do it to appeal to the carriers.

It seems HTC is jumping on the bandwagon as well.
http://www.engadget.com/2011/03/24/htc-locks-down-incredible-s-against-custom-roms-too-starts-a-fi/
I see a strategy here. Motorola, and now HTC, seem to be making their phones harder to crack and more difficult to mod. What this tells me is that they are trying to reduce the dev community down to just the hardcore players in an attempt to improve their profit margins. How? Well, if you can't update the phone yourself through something like flashing a custom rom or add your own features then they will have more control over the choice selection in their phones. One example would be the Atrix itself, while it has the hardware Moto could restrict the software and then in the future they could release a phone with the software but not the hardware. Does anyone ever ask themselves why can one phone have a certain feature and not another one?
This is what's going to happen people. Get used to it. We are in the hands of the worst kinds of people - "Big Cellular"

Edit: same info as above

A part of me wants to just a get a Nexus S and be done with. I may.
Their development threads are flooded. I know our might pick up, but it'll never be the same.

Why doesn't doesn't the same thing apply to our phone as did with the iphone, why aren't were covered under the DMCA? Iphone users can freely mod/jailbreak their handsets because of this and not only that apply has to still cover them under warenty. How is this any different?
Sent from my MB860 using XDA Premium App

drock212 said:
Why doesn't doesn't the same thing apply to our phone as did with the iphone, why aren't were covered under the DMCA? Iphone users can freely mod/jailbreak their handsets because of this and not only that apply has to still cover them under warenty. How is this any different?
Sent from my MB860 using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If Apple can prove your device was jailbroken then it voids your warranty. It is in their License Agreement.

live4nyy said:
If Apple can prove your device was jailbroken then it voids your warranty. It is in their License Agreement.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Only until you don't restore.

Want the bootloader keys? Lets all fight back!

To Motorola and for the rest of us,
I bought this phone originally because I read that the bootloader would be unlocked and I assumed fairly soon after. I, like most people, do not like motoblur. It is a slow, bloated, unfriendly interface that was forced upon me. Sadly, it is still forced upon me. So now that I thought I'd hold out and thought we'd get the keys, we didn't and it's too late to return this phone that had great promise.
What do I do now since I was dupped? I take away potential customers from Motorola. I've already convinced 3 of my friends not to get any of your phones and also a XOOM and who knows how many people they will tell my recommendations to?
You guys waste so much money on marketing and creating an image. This thing was suppose to blur the lines between computer and phone and you yourself are the ones who crippled that from being possible. Do you know what happens when you go to a sales agent at AT&T? They don't recommend the Atrix; a power user/person with knowledge of smartphones denies the customer from even considering it an option. Why would they do that? Because they know they can sell another phone that THEY like (easier to sell when you like it yourself) and they know the user won't come back and return against them, since they are paid commission.
Also, consider the demographic that probably bought this phone or considered it. They more than likely aren't the people who click 'Allow' when a website asks if it can install malware - those people bought iPhone's. The dual core CPU and webtop experience attracted the nerdier group - the power users and dev's - the exact people who don't want the limitations you put.
I know my post probably won't get heard by anyone important at moto but I know some of us owners/users/sympathizers will read this. The only thing I can hope is that we use the great tool we have and blog/tweet/status update/tell others. They won't listen to us, but they will listen to money. Take it away from them and they will listen.
FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS BUY MOTO! <---My facebook status and you should make it yours too!

kane4fire said:
To Motorola and for the rest of us,
I bought this phone originally because I read that the bootloader would be unlocked and I assumed fairly soon after. I, like most people, do not like motoblur. It is a slow, bloated, unfriendly interface that was forced upon me. Sadly, it is still forced upon me. So now that I thought I'd hold out and thought we'd get the keys, we didn't and it's too late to return this phone that had great promise.
Moto wasn't forced upon you. You bought the phone with a locked bootloader and Motoblur installed! Buying the phone was your decision!
What do I do now since I was dupped? I take away potential customers from Motorola. I've already convinced 3 of my friends not to get any of your phones and also a XOOM and who knows how many people they will tell my recommendations to?
Just because Motorola hasn't unlocked the bootloader in what is your timeframe doesn't constitute you being duped! Once again, you bought the phone knowing it had a locked bootloader and Motoblur!
You guys waste so much money on marketing and creating an image. This thing was suppose to blur the lines between computer and phone and you yourself are the ones who crippled that from being possible. Do you know what happens when you go to a sales agent at AT&T? They don't recommend the Atrix; a power user/person with knowledge of smartphones denies the customer from even considering it an option. Why would they do that? Because they know they can sell another phone that THEY like (easier to sell when you like it yourself) and they know the user won't come back and return against them, since they are paid commission.
No salesperson tried to prevent me buying mine. In fact, to the contrary, they gave me all the options. I, like you, chose to purchase the Atrix! A power user doesn't need the sales persons help to choose what they want!
Also, consider the demographic that probably bought this phone or considered it. They more than likely aren't the people who click 'Allow' when a website asks if it can install malware - those people bought iPhone's. The dual core CPU and webtop experience attracted the nerdier group - the power users and dev's - the exact people who don't want the limitations you put.
Dare I say it again..............you bought the phone knowing the bootloader was locked and Motoblur was on it! Everyone who has bought the Atrix and considers themselves a power user knows/knew the same things
I know my post probably won't get heard by anyone important at moto but I know some of us owners/users/sympathizers will read this. The only thing I can hope is that we use the great tool we have and blog/tweet/status update/tell others. They won't listen to us, but they will listen to money. Take it away from them and they will listen.
Sell your Atrix..........take your *****ing to another forum............and on your way out, don't let the doorknob hit ya where the good lord split ya!
FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS WHINE AND COMPLAIN ABOUT A PRODUCT THEY BOUGHT KNOWING IT WASN'T WHAT THEY WANTED <---My facebook status and you should make it yours too!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See above for my response to this!

*****ing about it will not accomplish anything and a large company such as Motorola wont be hurt by a few sales and honestly if I were your Facebook friend I would still buy this gadget, you know why? Its a great phone and there is still a chance that its bootloader will be unlocked eventually...just be patient.
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App

Actually, motorola explicitly stated they were going to unlock the bootloader from near the beginning - which was the reason I bought the phone. They used it as a selling point and they haven't addressed it at all...probably hoping it would be forgotten. Same thing with it being called a 4G phone, but it couldn't even attain 3G speeds up. They sold people on the idea that it would have the ability to access the fastest network speeds and people knew it didn't but still bought it. People *****ed, and now everyone (including your ungratefulness), got what they were told they were paying for.
A sales person may have not kept you, but it does happen more than in your case. As a matter of fact it happens fairly regularly. Usually a sales rep will lean towards one phone instead of another simply due to personal preference.
It is a great phone and great hardware without the ability to use it. This is a developers forum. If you don't want the ability to develop on this phone completely, why are you here? So you can seem all high and mighty? Maybe you're the one in the wrong forum or maybe you should just have a couple pitchers at a pub?
As far as a few sales not hurting it, that's not true at all. These phones aren't exactly flying off the shelves. As a matter of fact, this phone has a higher return rate than almost other smartphones. A returned phone costs much more overall than just not making a sale in the first place. The reason why they are going to do that is only because enough people are pissed about it that their current sales are hurting. They didn't spend money hiring people and R&D to create a locked bootloader if they didn't originally plan on keeping it locked for good.
You guys can tell people not to say anything or *****, but at the end of the day, you'll be the ones reaping the benefits of the people who did.

roharia said:
*****ing about it will not accomplish anything and a large company such as Motorola wont be hurt by a few sales and honestly if I were your Facebook friend I would still buy this gadget, you know why? Its a great phone and there is still a chance that its bootloader will be unlocked eventually...just be patient.
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
*****ing won't, but asking the right questions and showing that you are not the only one who is after this definitely gets some attention.
Kane4fire,
I really like your passion, it's just about making sure your message is heard and that you don't look like a troll.
Please look at some of the work I've been doing with Motorola, it's slow going but we are getting noticed.
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/04/motorola-bootloader/
http://www.engadget.com/2011/04/26/motorola-promises-unlocked-bootloaders-for-future-android-phones/
http://www.groubal.com/motorola-lockedencrypted-bootloader-policy/
http://www.facebook.com/unlockmoto
Cheers,
Irwin

Irwin, I have been seeing a lot of your work and group and etc. Personally, I'm not 100% convinced on them unlocking the bootloader for the Atrix since all the articles stated 'late 2011 releases' and the Atrix is early 2011.
The whole point of my post was for people who do post things and have some sort of a following to actually do something and post up as well on their own avenues. If you lose your dog, you don't just tell one or two people, you tell everyone and everything you can and it creates an exponential chain of people who end up knowing about it.
I personally know for a fact that at least in a small regional area they haven't done well with the XOOM and Atrix AT ALL and much of it actually has to do with Blur and it's problems with memory usage, battery life, and general lack of UI polish. I am sure that once the figures are out it will reflect how poorly they have been doing. It's a corporation and money is their motivator/reason for existence. I am sure if they hurt enough they will bow.

kane4fire said:
Irwin, I have been seeing a lot of your work and group and etc. Personally, I'm not 100% convinced on them unlocking the bootloader for the Atrix since all the articles stated 'late 2011 releases' and the Atrix is early 2011.
The whole point of my post was for people who do post things and have some sort of a following to actually do something and post up as well on their own avenues. If you lose your dog, you don't just tell one or two people, you tell everyone and everything you can and it creates an exponential chain of people who end up knowing about it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Absolutely. I haven't ceased any of my activities since that PR mumbo jumbo they gave me.
I have a few contacts within Motorola that are being difficult to get a hold of, so I keep sending emails, I keep calling (international calls for me), I keep my facebook group going, I keep tweeting and spreading as far as I can.
I hope you also have similar luck in spreading the word and getting people to rally to the cause, just make sure not to dilute the message too much or get people opposed to you.
Good luck my friend, it's good to see the fire burns strong for you.

kane4fire said:
Irwin, I have been seeing a lot of your work and group and etc. Personally, I'm not 100% convinced on them unlocking the bootloader for the Atrix since all the articles stated 'late 2011 releases' and the Atrix is early 2011.
The whole point of my post was for people who do post things and have some sort of a following to actually do something and post up as well on their own avenues. If you lose your dog, you don't just tell one or two people, you tell everyone and everything you can and it creates an exponential chain of people who end up knowing about it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not to doubt your ability to read and understand the English language, but here is the actual quote:
“Motorola will enable an unlockable/relockable bootloader, currently found on Motorola Xoom, in future software releases where carrier and operator partners will allow it,” Motorola said in a statement provided to Wired.com. “It is our intention to include the unlockable/relockable bootloader in software releases starting in late 2011.”
Is the Atrix a software release? No. Maybe they will be pushing OTA updates starting in late 2011 which will allow for this.

knigitz said:
Not to doubt your ability to read and understand the English language, but here is the actual quote:
“Motorola will enable an unlockable/relockable bootloader, currently found on Motorola Xoom, in future software releases where carrier and operator partners will allow it,” Motorola said in a statement provided to Wired.com. “It is our intention to include the unlockable/relockable bootloader in software releases starting in late 2011.”
Is the Atrix a software release? No. Maybe they will be pushing OTA updates starting in late 2011 which will allow for this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, my mistake. I haven't been able to sleep. Either way, their choice of wording still doesn't mean they will actually provide the unlock since they have to convince the carrier to unlock it. I don't know what their terms were with AT&T, but why would they need permission to unlock a bootloader when it has nothing to do with the cellular network? AT&T is obviously going to say no on the matter since it means less possible anything for them to deal with. Then again I don't know. Maybe it was apart of the deal that they would lock the bootloader as a package to offer the phone on a particular network.

kane4fire said:
Well, my mistake. I haven't been able to sleep. Either way, their choice of wording still doesn't mean they will actually provide the unlock since they have to convince the carrier to unlock it. I don't know what their terms were with AT&T, but why would they need permission to unlock a bootloader when it has nothing to do with the cellular network? AT&T is obviously going to say no on the matter since it means less possible anything for them to deal with. Then again I don't know. Maybe it was apart of the deal that they would lock the bootloader as a package to offer the phone on a particular network.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Neither you or any other Atrix owner is entitled to an unlocked bootloader from Motorola. Just saying: You're not. At the same time, you're well within your rights to crack it yourself, or just get a different phone.
Edit: I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice of Motorola to package a completely open bootloader with the Gingerbread update. It would.

This absolutely does have something to do with AT&T. The AT&T Atrix was "built" for AT&T. There are contractual agreements in place.
So if AT&T says no, that is the answer. If you want a phone with an unlocked bootloader (in this case) then you need to buy one that will be unlocked - either the carrier approved it, or maybe we see an unlocked phone that is not tied to a carrier.
If you buy an AT&T (or other carrier) branded phone, then you are going to be stuck with that carriers decisions.

chromedome00 said:
This absolutely does have something to do with AT&T. The AT&T Atrix was "built" for AT&T. There are contractual agreements in place.
So if AT&T says no, that is the answer. If you want a phone with an unlocked bootloader (in this case) then you need to buy one that will be unlocked - either the carrier approved it, or maybe we see an unlocked phone that is not tied to a carrier.
If you buy an AT&T (or other carrier) branded phone, then you are going to be stuck with that carriers decisions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You say that, but then again there are many other Android phones on AT&T that /do/ have an unlocked bootloader. Captivate, Aria, Inspire, galaxy tab and most likely the Infuse. So again, maybe AT&T doesn't care and its up to the manufacturers.
Sent from my screaming Atrix *4G* using the XDA App

I am lost......if bloatware and motoblur are the issues you have with the phone why not just get rid of or freeze the bloatware and try a different launcher or Ginger/grey blur? I haven't had to deal with motoblur for a while.
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App

kane4fire said:
To Motorola and for the rest of us,
For one you and hackers on here kill me most brands like moto don't make phone people to replace a bootloarer that's not in there mind in the board meeting.That being said they built a phone that a normal person can pick up and download apps from marketplace from its like buying a new 2011 car getting it home and dropping the motor and tranny the new car is ment to drive of the lot now im not saying I want my atrix bootloader locked cause I don't and my G2x is not unlocked but you can't strike against a large company like moto your little voices still mean nothing do them unless where on there board they care less.
I bought this phone originally because I read that the bootloader would be unlocked and I assumed fairly soon after. I, like most people, do not like motoblur. It is a slow, bloated, unfriendly interface that was forced upon me. Sadly, it is still forced upon me. So now that I thought I'd hold out and thought we'd get the keys, we didn't and it's too late to return this phone that had great promise.
What do I do now since I was dupped? I take away potential customers from Motorola. I've already convinced 3 of my friends not to get any of your phones and also a XOOM and who knows how many people they will tell my recommendations to?
You guys waste so much money on marketing and creating an image. This thing was suppose to blur the lines between computer and phone and you yourself are the ones who crippled that from being possible. Do you know what happens when you go to a sales agent at AT&T? They don't recommend the Atrix; a power user/person with knowledge of smartphones denies the customer from even considering it an option. Why would they do that? Because they know they can sell another phone that THEY like (easier to sell when you like it yourself) and they know the user won't come back and return against them, since they are paid commission.
Also, consider the demographic that probably bought this phone or considered it. They more than likely aren't the people who click 'Allow' when a website asks if it can install malware - those people bought iPhone's. The dual core CPU and webtop experience attracted the nerdier group - the power users and dev's - the exact people who don't want the limitations you put.
I know my post probably won't get heard by anyone important at moto but I know some of us owners/users/sympathizers will read this. The only thing I can hope is that we use the great tool we have and blog/tweet/status update/tell others. They won't listen to us, but they will listen to money. Take it away from them and they will listen.
FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS BUY MOTO! <---My facebook status and you should make it yours too!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sent from my LG-P999 using XDA App

Tylerjd said:
You say that, but then again there are many other Android phones on AT&T that /do/ have an unlocked bootloader. Captivate, Aria, Inspire, galaxy tab and most likely the Infuse. So again, maybe AT&T doesn't care and its up to the manufacturers.
Sent from my screaming Atrix *4G* using the XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
^^^ If Moto scapegoats AT&T over this, it would not be good for business.

knigitz said:
Not to doubt your ability to read and understand the English language, but here is the actual quote:
“Motorola will enable an unlockable/relockable bootloader, currently found on Motorola Xoom, in future software releases where carrier and operator partners will allow it,” Motorola said in a statement provided to Wired.com. “It is our intention to include the unlockable/relockable bootloader in software releases starting in late 2011.”
Is the Atrix a software release? No. Maybe they will be pushing OTA updates starting in late 2011 which will allow for this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's rumored that Moto will be the manufacturer for the next generation Google Nexus branded device, which is supposedly to be released ~Q4 2011. Maybe this is what they are referring to. Who knows. All I do know is that quote from moto didn't say anything about the Atrix.
nucentury08 said:
For one you and hackers on here kill me most brands like moto don't make phone people to replace a bootloarer that's not in there mind in the board meeting.That being said they built a phone that a normal person can pick up and download apps from marketplace from its like buying a new 2011 car getting it home and dropping the motor and tranny the new car is ment to drive of the lot now im not saying I want my atrix bootloader locked cause I don't and my G2x is not unlocked but you can't strike against a large company like moto your little voices still mean nothing do them unless where on there board they care less.
Sent from my LG-P999 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Holy ****. Longest, most rambling sentence I've ever seen.

Other att phones have locked bootloaders but they where easily exploited. Htc and the other manufacturers are making them harder and harder to unlock. Att most likely is in contract with moto to keep it locked. With it locked they have more chances of making more money off the bloatware.
Sent from my MB860 using XDA Premium App

knigitz said:
Neither you or any other Atrix owner is entitled to an unlocked bootloader from Motorola. Just saying: You're not. At the same time, you're well within your rights to crack it yourself, or just get a different phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah, why should people who plunk down hundreds of dollars be able to do what they want with something they own?
the nerve of some people wanting to use their devices as they see fit.

jbe4 said:
yeah, why should people who plunk down hundreds of dollars be able to do what they want with something they own?
the nerve of some people wanting to use their devices as they see fit.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You pay for the product, not the ability to tweak it to your heart's content. You don't see a $200 iPhone coming readily available to modify, do you? No. You have to jailbreak it first, if there's a jailbreak available.
As for kane's comment about motorola saying they'd unlock the bootloader from "near the beginning".... there was never such a statement that i've seen. I've seen stuff on the Motorola Owners Forum stating that a possible bootloader solution was being looked into... but nothing more than that. period.

elementaldragon said:
You pay for the product, not the ability to tweak it to your heart's content. You don't see a $200 iPhone coming readily available to modify, do you? No. You have to jailbreak it first, if there's a jailbreak available.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
by paying for the product I've paid to do what I want with it - If I want to use it as a way of leveling a kitchen chair thats my prerogative.
I think its just as patently offensive that Apple does it too
regardless, Android was/is billed as the Open Source alternative specifically to address the nonsense that is the itunes store and the draconian oversight of overbearing manufacturers. To have individual manufacturers go against the spirit of what google was/is trying to accomplish when they released AndroidOS seems just a bit ridiculous, dont you think?