Related
The Dopod 900 (HTC Universal) has 64MB RAM. When we do a hard reset and do NOT install the Extended ROM CAB files, the total RAM is about 50MB. Presumably the Windows Mobile OS takes up the missing 14MB RAM. However, the RAM available after a fresh hard reset is only about 30MB over 50MB.
So the question of the day is... who is eating up the 20MB RAM from my PPC Phone. And more importantly, how do I free it up?
Forget RAM. In WM5 you no longer have control over it, and it is not important either since all the data is stored in ROM.
It's used up by the OS for a quiet a few things. File system cache, Frame Buffer, page pool, XIP buffer, Radio stack, DMA buffers etc etc etc. There's a good article on the windows mobile team blog about this: http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archive/2005/11/17/494177.aspx
But lbendlin (above) is right, it's storage ROM you need toworry about - and we'r stuffed on this in this ROM too! TC have seen fit to use a fair bit of ROM for the exteded ROM and then have used 2mb of what's left for two HUGE today themes!
Well,
My HTC Universal has more than enough ROM (40MB free after hard reset), provided that I don't install programs.
However, I only have 30MB RAM, and after installing all plug-ins it goes down to 25MB, which I feel is really insufficient to multitask/multiopen a few memory-heavy programs at one go.
Hi all,
I'm trying to figure out what affect page pool sizes have on program memory. I understand that the larger the pagepool, the smaller the program ram. I understand, the larger the page pool, the "faster" the ROM operates since the pagepool is used as a pseudo-ram/cache for the OS.
However, Does anything else besides the Windows OS use the page pool memory? Can third party applications use the page pool?
Also, Because I have the HTC prophet which is known to be very limited in available RAM, I'm curious why sometimes I can't load third party input methods like calligrapher or tengo even when I have 15-20 megs of available program ram. Does the pagepool have some affect on this? This also seems linked to the today plugins since if I disable the today plugins, i can sometimes load calligrapher. Is the available ram split up between SIP (soft input panel) and today plugins vs. regular third party applications?
Thanks,
hheh 15-20 mb free ram?
man, change ROM...
btw, i never seen program, that cant be launched with 4 mb pp..
more = waste.
so a 4mb pp is best for freeing up ram for apps like calligrapher and today plugins... Does anyone know first hand whether a rom with only 4mb pp will be unbearably slow for things like loading /windows directory in file explorer?
Thanks,
I just switched to a 4MB PP on my Herald from a 12MB one. So far I am very happy. The amount of time is took to access the Windows folder was cut by more than 5sec. It only takes 3seconds max to load it up now.
thanks for http://www.roguegovernment.com/, and your avatar, God bless Canada.
neptune said:
I just switched to a 4MB PP on my Herald from a 12MB one. So far I am very happy. The amount of time is took to access the Windows folder was cut by more than 5sec. It only takes 3seconds max to load it up now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wait, What??
Reducing the pagepool will *increase* performance? not decrease it?
Isn't there a trade off at some point? I thought reducing the pp will decrease performance but increase program ram?
nothin said:
thanks for http://www.roguegovernment.com/, and your avatar, God bless Canada.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well Canada aint such a saint either but I'll take it over the US anyday. Did you know that some of the worst scientific tests from Project MKUltra were carried out in Canada under order from the American Military.These two governments go hand in hand. All the unwilling Canadian participants were drugged with LSD, run through ElectroSchock, and a whole load of sad experiments. I could go on all day about Government corruption, but when it comes down to it I'm all against it; and the only way to win a "war" against the government is by spreading the word of its wrong doings. SO whoever reads this thread pass this website along.
WWW.roguegovernment.com
ps: I know this ain't about PPC's but spread the word.
pps: if you havent already watch documentary Loose Change, then I'm sure that this website will be on your bookmark list.
mr_yellow said:
Wait, What??
Reducing the pagepool will *increase* performance? not decrease it?
Isn't there a trade off at some point? I thought reducing the pp will decrease performance but increase program ram?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It depends on your definition of peformance. Reducing page pool will speed up a few things on your device, it may also slow down a few things. However if you benchmark your device on sktools or similar then you will notice that greater page pool gives marginly better results.
Given that it is very simple to alter page pool I suggest that those wondering about the effects of page pool trial different page pool values and then note the subtle differences until they find a compromise.
mr_yellow said:
Hi all,
I'm trying to figure out what affect page pool sizes have on program memory. I understand that the larger the pagepool, the smaller the program ram. I understand, the larger the page pool, the "faster" the ROM operates since the pagepool is used as a pseudo-ram/cache for the OS.
However, Does anything else besides the Windows OS use the page pool memory? Can third party applications use the page pool?
Also, Because I have the HTC prophet which is known to be very limited in available RAM, I'm curious why sometimes I can't load third party input methods like calligrapher or tengo even when I have 15-20 megs of available program ram. Does the pagepool have some affect on this? This also seems linked to the today plugins since if I disable the today plugins, i can sometimes load calligrapher. Is the available ram split up between SIP (soft input panel) and today plugins vs. regular third party applications?
Thanks,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
wm5 had problems with multiple SIPs which has been sorted out in WM6,
if you are still on wm5 upgrade to wm6...if you have wm6 and still have this problem then try searching for PQIIz and if possible change your rom
Hi All,
Thanks for all the new replies. It really helps!
Concerning wm5 vs wm6: I am running a wm6 rom, in fact it's a rom built on the latest available build of wm6 so as far as I know, it's "up to date". But even with running wm6, I still have problems loading third party SIPs. Right after a reset, it's fine. But after a few hours or days of uptime, they'll fail to load. Even things like HTC phone pad (which i had to install seperately) won't load up.
Also, I can't find anything about PQIIz. As far as I can tell from the small references here and there, it's a utility that manages freeing memory and closing apps. What's the full name of this app?
Going back to the pagepool discussion: I wish I could experiement with the pagepool size but I'm no rom cook.. =( One day I'll get there.
Sigh.. back to flashing i guess. =/
mr_yellow said:
Hi All,
Going back to the pagepool discussion: I wish I could experiement with the pagepool size but I'm no rom cook.. =( One day I'll get there.
Sigh.. back to flashing i guess. =/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you do not need to cook to change.. just hexedit nbf..
btw, freeing mem app - oxios memory module hibernate.
About Canada and USA - Canada never destroyed other country, you know..(end of OT).
Someone (somewhere in one of these forums) mentioned that Microsoft's recommended "optimal" pagepool size was 4.5MB. I just assumed there had to be something wrong with that since my Dell Axim's OEM roms were set to 12MB pagepools. But perhaps there is some basis for a 4.5MB pagepool. I guess I will try it one of these days and see--unless someone else has already tried it on an Axim (X50v) and can give me an idea of performance results.
i would guess that ms dont have an optimal general pagepool
as it would depend on the transfer speed of the storage
compared to the speed of the ram
Rudegar said:
i would guess that ms dont have an optimal general pagepool
as it would depend on the transfer speed of the storage
compared to the speed of the ram
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So the best thing still is just to try several different pagepool sizes and pick the one that seems to have the most even balance of speed between various tasks/programs?
Does the process for changing the page pool size depend on the device? I found these instructions for changing pagepool for wizard roms:
http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=ChangingPagePoolofWizardWM6Roms
Are there any other factors I need to take into account before manually modifying a custom rom I did not build?
quick bump...
I'm still confused about the affects of pagepool and speed of OS and amount of program ram...
So my rom has 8mb pp. loading /windows takes only 4 seconds. I also get problems loading calligrapher, phonepad, and today plugins. I've had other roms with i think 12mb pp. loadinig /windows takes like 8-10 seconds with that and I don't recall any problems with loading 3rd party input method. I don't think i've ever tried a 4mb pp rom.
So from what I've experienced.
12mb pp:
slower OS (loading /windows is slow)
can load more input methods and today plugins
less program ram???
8mb pp:
faster OS (loading /windows is fast)
can NOT load more input methods and today plugins
more program ram?
4mb pp:
faster OS (loading /windows is ???)???
can NOT load more input methods and today plugins???
most program ram???
I have set the pagepool on my Diamond to 0Mb - very fast for all tasks. I used the tool in this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=323269
But I am confused still. In the above linked thread they talk of 0mb being the fastest, but you guys are talking about more than 0mb. A very steep learning curve for me
http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archive/2005/11/17/494177.aspx
that should help you
The Page Pool
Applications use RAM in two ways. There is code that runs, and there is data that is created while it is running. On a NOR device, the code can run directly from the ROM and not be loaded into RAM first. This process is called XIP (eXecute In Place). NAND devices can't XIP, so their code is loaded into RAM and executed from there. If you don't have a Page Pool, this code is loaded into normal RAM. The Page Pool is a mechanism to limit how much code is loaded into normal RAM. With a Page Pool, we can unload code that hasn't been used in a while and reload it later if we need to. We can't do that without a Page Pool.
On a typical NAND-based WM5 device, the Page Pool is 4.5M.
Taken from here.
i seen, a couple of roms that had a pagepool editor in the zip file
Hello! Me and a friend of mine just purchased the tmobile wings....i upgraded from the dash and him from the horrible SDA....well so far this is what we have done.
HTC Homescreen plugin + homescreen edit
Slide to UL (AC)
Iphone Window Theme
HTC Audiomanager
P Browser
TCPMP + Flash Video Software that allows utube among other sites -=)
Changed sliding keyboard sounds
Vtap (also allows utube, but tcpmp is the shat)
PSShtuXP
Icontacts
Pocket CM ( I don't have this anymore)
Overclocked to 247MHZ (not really sure what overclocking is, but hey most of you on here have done it, so why not)
We have both kept WM6 because it seems like Touch Flo still has editing, and i am attached to the microsoft voice sync program.
So all in all just making myself known on the forum, thanks again for turning my wing not only into a greater phone but now I want to call this isht a Tmobile Jet Wing.
I still don't understand some terms, don't know what flashing is, and wanted to know what other programs we could add to make our device function even better.
Is there a way to upgrade device storage? It seems to be my only concern. Thanks again.
Batman
__________________________________
TMO WING WM6 + Upgrades
NOW MY OWN TMO JET WING
Awesome. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask ... but please be sure to look through the forums first in order to answer most of your questions.
Flashing is installing a new operating system on your phone ... so think of it like taking Windows XP off of your computer, and installing Windows VISTA on your computer.
You should run the Quick Page Pool changer to get more device storage
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=324955
Cool, i try to read as much info as possible before posting...so yeah ive read the newb's guide and all the links within...thanks i will try to pagepool again...lastime didn't work...but ill try hopefully this is a better file.
directions are sort of...or reall fuzzy for installation..so i am really confused...any other helpful links on this?
all you have to do ....
-connect your phone via activesync
-copy the EnableRapi.cab file over to your phone
-thru your phone's file explorer, find the EnableRap.cab file, and run it.
-SOFT RESET
-connect your phone to activesync again, and run the batch file for the pagepool size you want to have (4, 6, 8, etc...)
-Reset again
and voila, you should have the new pagepool settings now.
think i did it lol.....how much space should i have?
Stock memory settings were the following on my Wing
Storage
39.44
8.09
31.35
Program
43.87
32.20
11.67
duprade said:
Stock memory settings were the following on my Wing
Storage
39.44
8.09
31.35
Program
43.87
32.20
11.67
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
11.6 MB free RAM after page pool fix??? that's way too low buddy. which page pool setting are u using? 4,6,or 8? but then again, is that on idle, or did you were running some other application on the background?
I remembered when i first found out about the pagepool fix, I was able to get 21 MB free ram on start up and running around 18-19 on idle. (i was running the 6 MB pool setup)
Now, i flashed my wing with Touch IT ROM v2.3 and i get 25 MB free RAM at start up and 20-22 on idle.
as I wrote on there .. those the STOCK memory settings ... meaning from a factory wing.
So obviously, you look at the stock settings, and compare them to the settings you see after running the pagepool app.
Howdy, guys. Hope one of you 'chefs' can help me get my head around this issue so I know how to approach decisions on which ROM I want.
The question I'm trying to understand is this.
If I were to create (or have made for me) a ROM with a smaller footprint (let's say maybe only 300mb), will the extra 276mb be available for user space to load programs? Or, is this a case where the ROM space is fixed and must be used; or even if unused would still not available for the system runtime or user purposes?
I ask because it would seem to me that if memory would be returned to the system for user purposes, that the leanest most lightweight ROM containing only the latest builds of WM, Manila and radios would make sense, because then the user can load whatever other utilities (footprints, compass, camera, etc.) that they want to.
It's entirely possible I'm asking for more work than it's worth, but I am curious to know, because if I'm right and that space would be made available for user purposes, I'd rather start with a 'vanilla' base and experiment with different utilities than have stuff put into the ROM that I might not want and/or would conflict with other programs that I do want.
Hope I'm making sense. Thanks in advance!
There are many different ROMs here. I've tried some of them (all right most of them) and there are roms that have many things build in and the free space is around 180 - 200MB free and on others that have only the most needed programs the free space goes up to near 300MB! As much as I know, the 512MB of ROM that is advertised is not devided by some way and the OS is part of the whole thing. So as bigger the ROM image is the less free space you have!
Correct me if I'm wrong!
A 300meg footprint is fairly hefty, the .nbh file for the rom i use is around 170Meg, Its a pretty lightweight rom that only installs the system, htc sense, and maybe a half dozen apps.
After installing maybe 10 (small) apps myself, plus opera, my 'Storage size' shows as 262.5 Meg total with 87 meg in use.
With stock roms it is down towards 160Meg total or there abouts, so just shows a cooked rom (which has sense and all the tabs) can still have at least 100meg knocked off the size by removing the extra apps.
As for RAM, that is no longer connected in any way to the rom. Not like old winmo devices where whatever space was left after install you decided how much is ram and how much is storage, no longer works like that. ROM is ROm and RAM is RAM.
If you want to utilise all that ram, look into ramdisks. I run my system, opera and IE cache from a ram disk, and it works fine.
samsamuel said:
If you want to utilise all that ram, look into ramdisks. I run my system, opera and IE cache from a ram disk, and it works fine.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How does that work mate?
I understand what a Ramdisk is from the olden days of MS-DOS.
Are you actually using the micro-SD slot to install your ROM, or using a portion of the SD as system memory?
What application could I use to create a Ramdisk?
samsamuel said:
A 300meg footprint is fairly hefty... stock roms it is down towards 160Meg total or there abouts, so just shows a cooked rom (which has sense and all the tabs) can still have at least 100meg knocked off the size by removing the extra apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, I was just using that size as an illustration to make sure I understood the concepts.
So what you're saying is that since there is 512MB of ROM space available, whatever size the ROM image is will be loaded into user space for runtime. Just to be sure I'm on the same page, let me show it this way to be sure (again, just as an illustration):
Basic cooked ROM
512MB ROM space
-112 basic ROM image
= 400MB unused ROM space
Loaded cooked ROM
512MB ROM space
-176 basic ROM image
= 336MB unused ROM space
When the system starts that ROM is loaded to RAM...
Basic cooked ROM
448RAM
-112ROM
=336MB RAM
Loaded cooked ROM
448RAM
-176 ROM loaded image
=272MB RAM
Do I have it right? If so, then it doesn't matter whether I have the programs I want pre-loaded in ROM or install them myself, since it's going into RAM anyway, other than the convenience of not having to reaload them in the event of a hard reset.
If I'm right, what still puzzles me is why HTC would have a ROM image larger than available RAM, unless some of those programs are 'execute-in-place', in which case it would make sense to have a larger ROM image.
Sorry about the questions, I'm just trying to get my head around how it all works.
Nezbert said:
How does that work mate?
I understand what a Ramdisk is from the olden days of MS-DOS.
Are you actually using the micro-SD slot to install your ROM, or using a portion of the SD as system memory?
What application could I use to create a Ramdisk?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just like the good old days, it creates a file in RAM that the system 'sees' as another memory card. (It gives it the same system image as the sd card, , , or it would, but it runs better hidden, so i run mine hidden, lol) but which runs at full RAM speed.
The system can then use that just like a seperate hard disk (i use mine for cache, as i said) and it has the added benefit that a soft reset recreates it from new, so it therefore empties your cache folders.
There is more than one way to do this on win mo, there are a few threads strewn about the xda circus, but theres one on the hd2 section by appelflap HERE and ive attached my ramdisk cab built from that thread for you to play with if you like.
When you instal the cab, it creates a 30 meg hidden disk called wramdisk (it messes with the documents tab if you leave it visible, but the system can use it in paths and such), and it sets opera cache, IE cache and system cache to use it.
@BillTheCat
The 512 meg rom space is partitioned up into (at least, not sure of the technicalities) three chunks.
One for rom, one for radio, and one for splash screen.
Splash screen is immaterial, but the radios tend to be about 25 meg, The rom itself uses up around 150 - 200, lets say 200, so total used space so far is 225, add a bit for overhead (partitioning, file system etc) and we can assume 230/240, which leaves 272 meg total storage space.
The tricky part is the 'in use'/'free' part, because some of the files in the rom, (the system files and such) run from within the rom, which is why they cant be deleted, so they dont count towards the 'in use' figure, , but some files DO, i.e the ones that you can delete, such as the lockscreens, and the button graphics.
I would be surprised if the 'in use' before you install any third party apps got much higher than 80 meg.
All this leaves a 'free' figure of around 190 meg.
I hope this helps, even if it only does a half arsed job at explaining!
EDIT - oh and as for your RAM useage figures, the thing to remember is the hard coded system files run directly from the rom, that is why theyre such a pain to extract. These ones arent copied to RAM at all. (as far as i understand it, anyway, always happy to be corrected.)
samsamuel said:
EDIT - oh and as for your RAM useage figures, the thing to remember is the hard coded system files run directly from the rom, that is why theyre such a pain to extract.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, that's what I thought. It's kind of like what HP used to do with the x00LX series of palmtops, where DOS and the other internal applications would run in what they called 'Execute-In-Place'.
I'm asking, because I think I might want to 'hire' a chef to make a ROM for me based on my specifications, but I at least need to have a basic understanding of what the F is going on so that I don't sound like a blithering idiot when I finally talk to someone about it.
You've been most helpful - thanks so much!
** Question moved to new thread **
** Question moved to new thread **
samsamuel said:
When you instal the cab, it creates a 30 meg hidden disk called wramdisk (it messes with the documents tab if you leave it visible, but the system can use it in paths and such), and it sets opera cache, IE cache and system cache to use it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you, its great idea this RAM disk, i installed your cab and its visible speed difference with and without it...
BillTheCat said:
'Execute-In-Place'
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yea thats the name I couldn't think of... the xip I think its called in cooking.
samsamuel said:
yea thats the name I couldn't think of... the xip I think its called in cooking.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, now it's starting to make sense. If the ROM is XIP, then it makes HUGE sense to maximize that rather than consume user space.
Now that I have the concepts down, if you know of a chef for hire, let me know!
BillTheCat said:
Ok, now it's starting to make sense. If the ROM is XIP, then it makes HUGE sense to maximize that rather than consume user space.
Now that I have the concepts down, if you know of a chef for hire, let me know!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
sorry, not me, i know nothing! i'm planning to spend the early summer figuring it out myself. alittle light reading! heh
Hello to all of you.
I have read a lot about setting the Pagepool Size. I know the microsoft commentar on this and the differnet speed tests done by variuos users. Most of them not showing a big increase in speed, but a lot of people reporting a "smoother" UI. But finally all of this seems to be still a mystery for me,.... and of course for others too. There is no final conclusion to me how large the pagepool should be. My question is: How can I determine the optimal page pool size for my usage, without try & error? As I said, the benchmarks did not show a clear improvement, and UI smoothness is difficult to evaluate between the different pagepool settings.
As I understand, the pagepool area is only used for program code and NOT for program data. But the question is: Is this restricted to "user program" code or does also the system processes use this RAM area? If only the user programs are using the pagepool, can I then determin the "best pagepool" size for my usage by starting the taskmanager and summing up the mean RAM usage of all my user programs usally running during using my phone?
So for example if Samsung Taskmanager reports:
Opera Mobile 1,34 MB
Active Sync 0,43 MB
moTweets 3,89 MB
====================
Summary: 5,66 MB
Would then 6/7MB be the best pagepool size for this case? Or is this method inaccurate? Are there any experiences?
Currently I have the pagepool at 4MB. I use Windows Standard CHome with a light ROM. With these settings I habe 97-98 MB of available RAM. So my options would be:
98MB RAM / 4 MB PP
94MB RAM / 8 MB PP
90MB RAM / 12 MB PP
86MB RAM / 16 MB PP
...
Does Pagepool speed up also the programs or just the User Interface? And should I try 16MB? Or do you think this would be too high and therefore only wasting RAM?
Best regards,
Chris