Related
It's a serious question.
When I released the MghtyMax series of Sense ROMs, I made it a point not to ask for donations. Not just because the bulk of the framework of those ROMs were Maxisma's code, but because I wanted to freely take as much knowledge as I was giving to the community.
I knew there were users who would want to give, and even got IM's asking where to send money. I always instructed them to send that money to their local food bank or homeless shelter.
Now that Klick has been tarred, feathered, and carried out of town on a pike, I must ask:
Assuming for a moment that Klick was guilty of copying other people's code (and I'm certainly not saying he is guilty, especially since I have not properly reviewed any evidence against him) would anyone have said word one if he hadn't been including a donation link in his posts?
There are some very successful developers here that have tens of thousands of users of their ROMs. At least one likely has over 100k users. Those users add up to a lot of donations. We're not talking chicken scratch here, but the potential to generate some serious capitol.
As with any business venture, an individual or company will go to great lengths to defend their income stream. When you are talking about proprietary designs, and copyrighted intellectual property, it's only natural for the owner of said designs or property to defend their work from imitation, alteration, and redistribution under a different brand/name.
However, we're not talking about private intellectual property here, are we? No, we're talking about open source code, released by the Android Open Source Project under the Creative Commons Attribution 2.5 generic license.
Even if he was indeed guilty of using someone else's base code, there was no law broken. So why all the hubbub?
Honestly, I think it was money.
When there is the potential to make thousands, tens of thousands, or possibly even hundreds of thousands of dollars in "donations", people are going to become very possessive of their "market share".
If donations to developers didn't exist, my guess is none of this bickering would be happening at all. One developer could happily take another dev's code, modify it, re-release it, and another dev could come along and modify that.
Nobody would complain because there would be nothing to lose. Developers would be releasing code for the sole purpose of enhancing the development community, instead of lining their pockets with currency.
Why would anyone care, as long as the code was being enriched, and the end result was better programming for all? Wasn't this the point of open development?
I know this post will be very unpopular with some, but I think we've let the money changers overrun the temple. I think this trend of asking for donations will only slow the open development of code, and encourage those with large followings to do what ever it takes to crush perceived competition.
The above paragraph may have just made me the pariah of the entire development community, but I really don't give a damn. I honestly believe the community would be far better off without money being involved at all. It is because of this belief that I encourage the management of XDA to permanently ban all requests for donations, be they for ROM development, APP development, or any other purpose.
I firmly believe that by removing money from the equation, we will see a much more rich and diverse development community, with developers willing to enjoy an open exchange of ideas.
But, people like Cyanogen (and his team) spend hours working on the source code to imrpove it for users, everything they do is freely avalable and anyone can compile it, they just ask for donations.
Then you have another side of things where people spend hours hacking and mashing away at roms that were never meant to work on our devices, devoting hours to make them work and trying to get the best possible speed.
Then toy have the people who download a rom from elsewhere, change the build.prop, maybe theme it a little if they are bored, upload it elsewhere and say "Hey donate for my work on the rom" when the reality is its not their work, nor are they worth (most of the time) running.
I think people are complaining about people in the third group, not the first two.
I've been trying to figure out what all this craziness has been about in the dev forum. I literally only browse it for my own personal selfish reasons. To get the best roms and enjoy my G1.
At the end of the day Mghtyred is ultimately right. Regardless of stolen code or not, it's all free and open source. I could definitely understand how this could upset a lot of people, but that cracks me up. I'm going to go out on a really safe looking limb here and say that most people that frequent these forums are probably pirates and download stuff constantly. But when it comes to money in their own pockets then the situation change drastically. That kind of hypocrisy is disgusting.
Especially when it leads to someone getting booted over something ultimately so petty as far as the internet is concerned. Just a bunch of egos fighting over the spotlight. Which is ultimately pretty useless when in reality the vast majority of the people who actually use your roms don't care who made it, they just want the best one out there.
Isn't money always the downfall of everything? Unfortunately it looks like it's really starting to take it's toll on this community. I'm a very new Android user but since day one of coming to these forums I always knew something sinister was up but I just had no idea why.
Perusing most threads in the dev forum, especially on the first page of each thread, you end up seeing mostly character assassination attempts being made at the thread poster. "You didn't do this," "that isn't yours" but all those comments meant nothing to us new guys or the guys that only cared about the end product, the roms.
Basically what I'm saying is, internet, I love you but get over yourself.
I'm mostly a lurker, I don't post very much here, mostly due to the fact that I'm not an Android dev...
Having been member of various MOD communities since the late 90's, it's not just the donations/money that devs are worried about (though, donations/money IS a problem), it's all about bragging rights and "being known" or "popular" in the community. When someone spends any significant amount of time working on projects such as these, they want to be recognized within (and outside of) the community as the one(s) who brought the project to life... When someone downloads your work, makes a few insignificant changes and then releases it as his own work, the original dev(s) have the right to be angry... I'm not saying ALL devs are like this (many simply do not care to be known within the community, they just want to help), but many of them are.
I for one am thankful for all the hard work devs do, if it wasn't for them, we'd be stuck with the stock ROMs... Groups like Cyanogen's team are what a community should be, everyone putting their ideas/changes/fixes into 1 big pot to make the best ROMs possible, instead of having 20 different ROMs from various devs... Although yes, choice is good, it also limits the quality of the ROMs in question, if there was 3-4 core groups with 4-5 devs in each group all working together to bring excellent ROMs to the table, we'd be much better off.
It just seems that people don't get what a community is all about, it's to share ideas/code so we ALL benefit from it, devs and users alike.
Of course, this is just my humble opinion, different communities have different ideas/people who make these communities what they are.
Well, in my opinion Android is open-source.. Yes. But when people use skills that they have to improve on Android development for our older phone is just peachy.
The problem with King Klick is because he copied someone else's work while saying he made it. He did not give credit where it was due, he never finished a single ROM, basically he just downloaded a ROM, themed it and put his name on it.
Most people seem to think he is innocent as Android is open source, open source yes but, we have rights to those codes, then when people release their modified/hacked version its alright (open source affect). As I said above the problem begins when people take other people's work and label it as their own.
Blackman778g said:
The problem with King Klick is because he copied someone else's work while saying he made it. He did not give credit where it was due, he never finished a single ROM, basically he just downloaded a ROM, themed it and put his name on it.
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Really? Literally did nothing except rename it? Who's are they?
dezvous said:
Really? Literally did nothing except rename it? Who's are they?
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http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=7018713&postcount=45
md5sums from two different roms (one Kings) all he changed was the gapps and build.prop
vixsandlee said:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=7018713&postcount=45
md5sums from two different roms (one Kings) all he changed was the gapps and build.prop
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So lets put this straight. First Jubeh the original ROM creator only compiled AOSP code to build a ROM. Jubeh had no problem with KingKlick using that ROM in the way he did. Thirdly KingKlick fixed the ROM so that it worked with the Mt3G and improved its speed. To say the renamed a zip is a regurgitation of a lie. The owner of the ROM made no complaints and a certain xda moderator had made up his mind before even contacting KingKlick. KingKlick did not copy anything from Cyanogen and team, the ROM had nothing to do with them. This is really about money and Firerat one of Cyanogens pet dogs admitted as much that his aim was to remove KingKlick from xda.
Maybe we should find out how much in donations Cyangen and co have received and whether or not if they are registered with the IRS as a non profit organisation.
People need to get off of their "Open Source" high horse if they don't understand the law.
AOSP is open source (at least most of it, there are still several necessary blobs), and the code there is freely available to anybody. However, the work produced from AOSP is anything but free.
Most of AOSP is released under a very permissive Apache 2.0 license. Under this license, any modification to the code is the property of the programmer to release as they wish. Had I wanted it that way, I could have released my whole build under a very mean license that would relentlessly pursue anybody who dared post even a single part of my release anywhere else. If one of those md5s matches, there'd be problem.
Also, the license allows me to release the rom without having to release the source (like the GPL does), so basically, Android is free and open source, but only referring to the code you download from AOSP, not any half-assed code that any random joe puts up online. So, from that standpoint, NO, ANDROID IS NOT OPEN SOURCE AND EVERYBODY'S PROPERTY.
Also, how can somebody let the "Open Source" and "people's property" and "law" words out of their mouths when they take no heed to the shameless stealing of google's, htc's, and qualcomm's (plus others') IP that's being pushed ON EVERY SINGLE ROM, WINMO, ANDROID, OR ANYTHING ELSE ON THIS WHOLE FORUM!!!!.
I dare anybody to show me their license to re-distribute all code from all involved companies.
"But, android is free, isn't it?"
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Guess what an android build with nothing but free parts would look like?
Remember those broken SDK builds where nothing worked, there was no radio, no gapps, no audio?
That's the current state of "open source"...
It has nothing to do with the state of the legality of distributions. In fact, the whole thing is ridiculous, for example, where a certain mod who I won't name went on a holy quest against QuickOffice calling it "warez" but shamelessly ignored that pretty much everything else on the Dream forum, hell, on the whole site, is nothing but a big stinking pile of warez. I still wonder what that one was about...
vixsandlee said:
But, people like Cyanogen (and his team) spend hours working on the source code to imrpove it for users, everything they do is freely avalable and anyone can compile it, they just ask for donations.
Then you have another side of things where people spend hours hacking and mashing away at roms that were never meant to work on our devices, devoting hours to make them work and trying to get the best possible speed.
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Here's the real problem with XDA; all those people thinking "Oh devs are some sort of god, they make the best things, we're not worthy, I'm dumb and I can't contribute, so I'll just send some money".
Guess what? Now you're really being stupid. Any dumb chap can put the effort, with enough dedication, to make their own personal builds. Most of us doing this are geeks, a lot of us are a-holes, and I could assure you that the vast majority of us could give two f**cks if that thing you flashed is boot-looping even though it worked for us. As far as we're concerned, you screwed up and should have read better.
We weren't born tied to a computer. We had to work for what we know, and if you people want to be a retard and give money for something easy, then that's up to you, but you all really have to stop that dumb attitude that "devs" are somehow better than you. Only difference is that this is where we decided to put our interest at.
Now, this brings me back to topic. So, what if some guy took my build. I could have done something about it. I certainly did have the legal ease to do so. Turns out, I don't give a rat's ass one way or the other. You people are paying too much attention to trivialities. You're trying to put this on some sort of clash of the giants where guys are either good guys or bad guys. You're judging a "dev"'s personal qualities based on the quality of their work. If they pull up an underhanded, kangilistic build, then you judge them.
I can assure you that the makers of the most "stable", most "fastest", most popular build out there are as much douchebags as you, me, or anybody else is.
Jubeh I don't think it is triva at all, what we actually have had here on xda is a vicious campaign to remove a developer from the xda community. Firerat as much as admitted it.
I have an mt3g and I use KingKlicks ROMs because they are the ones I prefer. Now Jubeh you say you don't give a rats arse about what KingKlick did and while I find it admirable KingKlick is still banned from xda and I cannot get his ROMs from this community.
If a group of developers have singled out another for exclusion then the next logical question is why? Despite an initial extremely public locking down of KingsKlicks threads and public condemnation without even contacting him asking for an explanation the moderators have gone all quiet not even mentioning the outcome. The fact that the initial reaction was infact a breach of their own rules and the clear insinuation about getting donations clearly shows what the real problem is. This forum should drop Android and go with the Apple platform instead though of course Steve Jobs would nip that in the butt. However this is about the spirit and ethos of Android which has been completely raped not just by a gang of developers but the moderators on this forum. What happened to being open, fair and inclusive?
Its around money and donations. Clearly these guys are not charities (and I have offered to donate to a developer who told me to give to a charity of his choice instead which I did) then they should be registered as non profit organisations. Where at least we can keep tabs on their tax returns to see what their turnover actually is.
It would be interesting to find out how much rom-devs (also file movers) *actually get* from donations. I suspect that it is quite little -- certainly not enough to quit their day job. Even CM still keeps a day job, and I *suspect* that he probably gets WAY more in donations than anyone else.
lbcoder said:
It would be interesting to find out how much rom-devs (also file movers) *actually get* from donations. I suspect that it is quite little -- certainly not enough to quit their day job. Even CM still keeps a day job, and I *suspect* that he probably gets WAY more in donations than anyone else.
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I know KingKlick did not get enough to purchase a nexus one yet that seemed enough to try and ban him from the xda and hence the wider Android ROM development community. I wonder if cyanogen is found to be using somebody elses work without accreditation will he be banned?
So clearly this whole mess is a convoluted and hypocritical one, with egos being the main driving force behind it all. We've got developers and moderators and both want to throw their weight around.
Then there are worthless people like me. Fun times had by all.
dezvous said:
So clearly this whole mess is a convoluted and hypocritical one, with egos being the main driving force behind it all. We've got developers and moderators and both want to throw their weight around.
Then there are worthless people like me. Fun times had by all.
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It isn't quite that.
There IS a question of INTEGRITY.... whether you make nothing, 1 cent, or 1000 dollars, misrepresenting someone else's work as your own is DISHONEST, and if you are someone liable to BE dishonest, is ripping off someone else's work the worst thing you are capable of?
So combine the dishonesty with an obvious sign that you are trying (not necessarily successfully) to profit off of someone else's work... well in the real world, that is called FRAUD and people go to PRISON for it (see "Conrad Black").
I thought we were mostly pissed because he only "deved" until he got enough money for a new phone, then just quit. When he needed the next new phone, here he comes again. Never really kept up with King and his shenanigans. Honestly, all his builds sucked to me. They all bootlooped if I didn't have apps2sd. Nty.
macsbac said:
I know KingKlick did not get enough to purchase a nexus one yet that seemed enough to try and ban him from the xda and hence the wider Android ROM development community. I wonder if cyanogen is found to be using somebody elses work without accreditation will he be banned?
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Yes, quit talking about the guy likes he's ****ing God. Excuse my french, but everyone acts like cyanogen fell from the sky on a golden comet from Mars. He's a great dev, no doubt, and I'm not bashing him. However, he is a human, you know that, right? If he ever stole source and claimed it as his, I'm sure the mods would do their job and the same thing would happen. However, that's not the case here and that argument of "if he did it i bet nothing would happen" should have died out in fourth third grade.
lbcoder said:
It isn't quite that.
There IS a question of INTEGRITY.... whether you make nothing, 1 cent, or 1000 dollars, misrepresenting someone else's work as your own is DISHONEST, and if you are someone liable to BE dishonest, is ripping off someone else's work the worst thing you are capable of?
So combine the dishonesty with an obvious sign that you are trying (not necessarily successfully) to profit off of someone else's work... well in the real world, that is called FRAUD and people go to PRISON for it (see "Conrad Black").
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This is complete and utter nonsense, what you really mean to say he did not credit Jebah who originally compiled the ROM. A guy who did not care what KingKlick did with his ROM. If you want integrity then the integrity of the site and its moderators have lost all of it. The rules say its for the two conflicting parties to sort the issue out and if unsuccessful then bring it to the mods attention. Neither of the parties had a problem or bone of contention and in fact the issue was raised by cyanogen and his bunch of cronies of which they had nothing to do with it. Not only that then then escalated their campaign of online bullying even in several posts singling KingKlick out for what they even admit flaming, severe unpleasant language with the aim of removing him from the XDA community. The xda moderator who originally responded did so by locking threads without contacting KingKlick for his side of the story, breaching their own rules. If moderators can't follow the rules then how do they expect anyone else too. All donations to KingKlick where for his hard work as in XDA rules not for any particular ROM. You want to talk about honesty or integrity teamdouchebags are a vile group of developers trying to monopolise the ROM development community. As for XDA they very publicly locked down kings threads and made a serious of accusations against him. Though as of yet they have not even posted the outcome of their decision or the rationale behind it. They have yet to react to at least breaches of 3 rules by teamdouchebags displaying extreme bias. Its a severe abuse of their position and while within their rights it certainly lacks integrity, honesty or the openness that open source should be.
A lot of interesting posts here, I'm enjoying this discussion. Glad I started it.
macsbac said:
This is complete and utter nonsense, what you really mean to say he did not credit Jebah who originally compiled the ROM. A guy who did not care what KingKlick did with his ROM. If you want integrity then the integrity of the site and its moderators have lost all of it. The rules say its for the two conflicting parties to sort the issue out and if unsuccessful then bring it to the mods attention. Neither of the parties had a problem or bone of contention and in fact the issue was raised by cyanogen and his bunch of cronies of which they had nothing to do with it. Not only that then then escalated their campaign of online bullying even in several posts singling KingKlick out for what they even admit flaming, severe unpleasant language with the aim of removing him from the XDA community. The xda moderator who originally responded did so by locking threads without contacting KingKlick for his side of the story, breaching their own rules. If moderators can't follow the rules then how do they expect anyone else too. All donations to KingKlick where for his hard work as in XDA rules not for any particular ROM. You want to talk about honesty or integrity teamdouchebags are a vile group of developers trying to monopolise the ROM development community. As for XDA they very publicly locked down kings threads and made a serious of accusations against him. Though as of yet they have not even posted the outcome of their decision or the rationale behind it. They have yet to react to at least breaches of 3 rules by teamdouchebags displaying extreme bias. Its a severe abuse of their position and while within their rights it certainly lacks integrity, honesty or the openness that open source should be.
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You really got the wrong end of the stick and ran with it. Calm down. KingKlick is no loss to this community, we can all use winzip.
macsbac said:
So lets put this straight. First Jubeh the original ROM creator only compiled AOSP code to build a ROM. Jubeh had no problem with KingKlick using that ROM in the way he did. Thirdly KingKlick fixed the ROM so that it worked with the Mt3G and improved its speed. To say the renamed a zip is a regurgitation of a lie. The owner of the ROM made no complaints and a certain xda moderator had made up his mind before even contacting KingKlick. KingKlick did not copy anything from Cyanogen and team, the ROM had nothing to do with them. This is really about money and Firerat one of Cyanogens pet dogs admitted as much that his aim was to remove KingKlick from xda.
Maybe we should find out how much in donations Cyangen and co have received and whether or not if they are registered with the IRS as a non profit organisation.
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Are you King Klicks lawyer or are you his B****??
I like how you are trying to accuse other modders and developers of the same thing, besides that you act like the Jubeh ROM is the whole reason of this situation. THERE ARE TONS OF ROMs THAT HE USED. Don't try accusing other people of the same thing just because your fake developer friend. got caught.
macsbac said:
Jubeh I don't think it is triva at all, what we actually have had here on xda is a vicious campaign to remove a developer from the xda community. Firerat as much as admitted it.
I have an mt3g and I use KingKlicks ROMs because they are the ones I prefer. Now Jubeh you say you don't give a rats arse about what KingKlick did and while I find it admirable KingKlick is still banned from xda and I cannot get his ROMs from this community.
If a group of developers have singled out another for exclusion then the next logical question is why? Despite an initial extremely public locking down of KingsKlicks threads and public condemnation without even contacting him asking for an explanation the moderators have gone all quiet not even mentioning the outcome. The fact that the initial reaction was infact a breach of their own rules and the clear insinuation about getting donations clearly shows what the real problem is. This forum should drop Android and go with the Apple platform instead though of course Steve Jobs would nip that in the butt. However this is about the spirit and ethos of Android which has been completely raped not just by a gang of developers but the moderators on this forum. What happened to being open, fair and inclusive?
Its around money and donations. Clearly these guys are not charities (and I have offered to donate to a developer who told me to give to a charity of his choice instead which I did) then they should be registered as non profit organisations. Where at least we can keep tabs on their tax returns to see what their turnover actually is.
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Why are you even on here if you can't accept the truth? The moderator even said he pm'ed King to make a public announcement to clearify the situation. King Klick was acting dumb.
Can we just move on?
Blackman778g said:
Are you King Klicks lawyer or are you his B****??
I like how you are trying to accuse other modders and developers of the same thing, besides that you act like the Jubeh ROM is the whole reason of this situation. THERE ARE TONS OF ROMs THAT HE USED. Don't try accusing other people of the same thing just because your fake developer friend. got caught.
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As for the reason, i have evidence he intentionally copied at least 2 Roms from respectable Android developers, renamed the and called them his own.
I dont have time, due too work, no internet at work
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Strange that because the moderators are only questioning two ROMs. The only one they mention is that of Jebah's and he has made his position quite clear repeatedly. Yes many, many ROMs from most developers do not credit others and its not a problem unless the creator of the original ROM complains as per rule 12.
Blackman778g said:
Why are you even on here if you can't accept the truth? The moderator even said he pm'ed King to make a public announcement to clearify the situation. King Klick was acting dumb.
Can we just move on?
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Really the truth
He isn't banned at the moment, for later today, will be sending him a PM to open a thread in PUBLIC and explain himself.
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Again KingKlick was clearly locked a day before any moderator even PM'd and the moderator in question Mikey1022 clearly let his intentions be known before KingKlick was asked to explain, before Jebah made any complaint and then made some bogus allegations about donations as an excuse to break the forums own rules.
Why public?? For the simple reason.........he kept shoving a donation link in every thread he created, unlike the other developers, he copy-catted from.
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Despite KingKlick being forced to put a donation link into every signature as defined in xda rules. Effectively Mikey1022 is punishing KingKlick here for following xda rules.
We can not/should not allow developers coping roms, collecting money on others hard work. As he calls it his own.
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Yet I want Mikey1022 to post a quote or link to where KingKlick called this ROM his own. Or where he asked for a donation for this ROM specifically. Somehow I think he will fail to respond to this post as the others when I asked the same questions.
A couple mods on here know about King and his crap he has been pulling off, so it's not a big surprise.
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Then the clear bias continues and the decision to ban KingKlick was pre-empted before any sort of truth was established. The main one being Jubah had no problem with KingKlick using his ROM and did not raise any concerns with an XDA moderator. As such no rule was broken and issue should have been dropped in lines with xda rules. Again who raised the complaint? nobody knows. For the extreme public castration of KingKlick Mikey1022 and his fellow mods have kept quiet, why have they not even told the community what KingKlicks punishment is or given any reason for it?
Do you think its a coincidence that this complaint was apparently raised when KingKlick refused to become butt buddies with cyanogen or be on "team douche". That cyanogen lost the bap with a post full of explicit language used in a direct insult in violation of xda rules. No public castration there though and I have to ask why? Then I can ask why some of cyanogens dogs of can admit to starting flame wars directed a KingKlick for a sustained period of time and yet this clear violation of rules led to no public castration. How further after 3 days of flaming and direct insults firerat even as good as admits his aim is to remove KingKlick from the xda community yet again no public castration there.
These people say KingKlicks ROMs are just renamed zips that's ok but as a 32b owner and constant ROM flasher why do KingKlicks roms always run better on my device than the others.
Its almost unbelievable that a forum I have been following for a while now can allow a group of developers to exclude another developer from an open source project. Its much more vile than anything KingKlick has been accused of. The moderators of this forum should be hanging their heads in shame.
UPDATE: In the potential circumstance that a leak has been watermarked and job(s) are at stake then I think I speak for everyone in saying that a ROM should not be publicly released unless the watermark has been removed (if that's impossible, then it still shouldn't be released). This petition is not unique to the DK05 leak; it goes for any leak that is not watermarked. The reason I am posting it now is because people have cited bricking problems over watermarking in DK05.
This thread was made to unify and organize the voices of those who feel that it is our own responsibility to decide whether or not we should flash potentially unsafe ROMs, specifically leaks.
We feel that it is NOT the responsibility of the developers or the XDA staff to protect us from potentially unsafe ROMs.
We have seen that at least some staff, and at least some developers feel that it is their responsibility to protect us from potentially unsafe ROMs.
We would like to firmly but kindly remind these people that we and we alone should decide what gets flashed onto our phones.
We would like to remind them that we can and will take full responsibility for whatever happens when we flash these ROMs.
We would like to remind them that we can and will use the various guides to restore our phone if something goes seriously wrong.
Finally, we would like to remind them that those people who don't take full responsibility for flashing a potentially unsafe ROM can and should be dealt with through methods that do not impact the community at large.
Sign by posting if you are one of us. Please post only once and do not post if you are not signing. There are numerous other threads open for discussion.
Signed
Though I find when one part if a community is forced to petition another for fair treatment that's a bad sign
WHAT DO WE WANT? BRICKED PHONES! WHEN DO WE WANT EM? NOW!!!!!
xda mods, please dont make my decisions for me. if i want to chug four loko and flash buggy beta roms i should have the right to do so!
i dont need a nanny.
Signed... I don't understand what the problem was with releasing dk05? I am running it just fine. Now if I remember correctly we could brick our phones from flashing to anything not just betas. Isn't that what the devs always put in the op "I do not take responsibility if your phone gets bricked due to flashing this rom" or something along those lines. I do not see why nothing could be said like that and just gave us the damn leak in the first place.. oh well though, I got it anyways. Thanks.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
Signed...sgs are unbrickable...u can even jimmy rig some resistors and force into dl mode if u mess up that far ....odin flash ur good to go... All the excuses we have been given r just that...excuses...how about we as a community educate..well ... The community....once a strong base is established..guess what the community will grow and there will be infinitely less useless threads pop up
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
NOT Signed.
What the OP is leaving out in this "petition" is the fact that these leaks are watermarked with specific code that allows "the powers that be" to easily discover the source of said leak.
So basically, everyone signing this "petition" is demanding that developers share their internal/confidential leaks with the public because you have a selfish sense of entitlement, and don't give a rat's a** if someone loses their job over it. Behavior like this, which is 98% exclusive to Android, is precisely why I waited several years before leaving Windows Mobile.
/end my rant as an Android user and someone with a common sense of decency. The preceding post was done not as a Moderator, and is strictly my personal observation.
NotATreoFan said:
NOT Signed.
What the OP is leaving out in this "petition" is the fact that these leaks are watermarked with specific code that allows "the powers that be" to easily discover the source of said leak.
So basically, everyone signing this "petition" is demanding that developers share their internal/confidential leaks with the public because you have a selfish sense of entitlement, and don't give a rat's a** if someone loses their job over it. Behavior like this, which is 98% exclusive to Android, is precisely why I waited several years before leaving Windows Mobile.
/end my rant as an Android user and someone with a common sense of decency. The preceding post was done not as a Moderator, and is strictly my personal observation.
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While I agree with you 100%, when developers post all over the forums and brag about roms that they have and how awesome they are while refusing to share with the rest of us, that is pretty ****ty and does nothing but piss people off. This has happened with EVERY SINGLE LEAK. Even in the thread where the DK05 rom was leaked, the very people denouncing the leak were bragging about having DK17, i mean seriously? The reason that this behavior didn't occur with Windows Mobile was that the devs actually EXPLAINED to their users what was going on and updated them instead of keeping them in the dark. I have no problem with Devs not releasing the roms, but if you are going to brag about having them to the rest of the forum, you better start a damn thread and at least give us updates on what the rom fixes or breaks and the cool features that Samsung is including in said rom.
muyoso said:
While I agree with you 100%, when developers post all over the forums and brag about roms that they have and how awesome they are while refusing to share with the rest of us, that is pretty ****ty and does nothing but piss people off. This has happened with EVERY SINGLE LEAK. Even in the thread where the DK05 rom was leaked, the very people denouncing the leak were bragging about having DK17, i mean seriously? The reason that this behavior didn't occur with Windows Mobile was that the devs actually EXPLAINED to their users what was going on and updated them instead of keeping them in the dark. I have no problem with Devs not releasing the roms, but if you are going to brag about having them to the rest of the forum, you better start a damn thread and at least give us updates on what the rom fixes or breaks and the cool features that Samsung is including in said rom.
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Even if it's only a thread, you are still demanding. And unless you are that dev's significant other or their boss, you have absolutely no right to do this.
muyoso said:
While I agree with you 100%, when developers post all over the forums and brag about roms that they have and how awesome they are while refusing to share with the rest of us, that is pretty ****ty and does nothing but piss people off. This has happened with EVERY SINGLE LEAK. Even in the thread where the DK05 rom was leaked, the very people denouncing the leak were bragging about having DK17, i mean seriously? The reason that this behavior didn't occur with Windows Mobile was that the devs actually EXPLAINED to their users what was going on and updated them instead of keeping them in the dark. I have no problem with Devs not releasing the roms, but if you are going to brag about having them to the rest of the forum, you better start a damn thread and at least give us updates on what the rom fixes or breaks and the cool features that Samsung is including in said rom.
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Finally a reply with an argument... Here is the deal. Even if they are hitting you in the face with the leak, that still does not entitle you to have it nor you have any right to demand it. Period, there is no way around it. Nor you, me, the other admins, or anyone in this place can force a dev to do otherwise.
As for the "teaser" threads, I agree... I personally don't like those as more often than not, they are used to drive up donations, which is why Rule 11 is currently being amended to prevent this from happening. It is like eating a 12 oz stake in front of a starving child, not cool. However, there is a thin line between a teaser and a closed beta. This was supposed to be a closed beta, and it ended up being a leaked leak.
BTW, Not Signed either...
NotATreoFan said:
NOT Signed.
What the OP is leaving out in this "petition" is the fact that these leaks are watermarked with specific code that allows "the powers that be" to easily discover the source of said leak.
So basically, everyone signing this "petition" is demanding that developers share their internal/confidential leaks with the public because you have a selfish sense of entitlement, and don't give a rat's a** if someone loses their job over it. Behavior like this, which is 98% exclusive to Android, is precisely why I waited several years before leaving Windows Mobile.
/end my rant as an Android user and someone with a common sense of decency. The preceding post was done not as a Moderator, and is strictly my personal observation.
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Please don't assume that this is about DK05/any watermarked leak (if DK05 is in fact watermarked). I've updated the first post.
I'll take this opportunity as my 1 post to sign my own petition. Everyone else please return to normal.
Well what is the real case here because I also read a post saying that the exact same korean dudes info is on the SPRINT stock di18 which,if true, would leave all argument moot. So maybe someone will be kind enough to try and confirm compare stock di18, dg27 etc
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
Today is a great day to go visit other forums. Too many self-righteous adults acting like spoiled children in xda today.
(not directed specifically at this thread, it's just one of many in the past few days)
NotATreoFan said:
Even if it's only a thread, you are still demanding. And unless you are that dev's significant other or their boss, you have absolutely no right to do this.
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The point of this petition is that people don't want to be "protected" in that way..it is unrelated to the watermarks or the demands...It is understandable if something is not released due to a watermark that can effect someone's job...BUT if the said case is merely "its for your own good cause you can brick your phone" thats what the petition is about and strictly that..lets not bundle multiple issues in 1.
That said, this should have been a poll rather then people responding as it was bound to get discussion within it >.>
gTen said:
The point of this petition is that people don't want to be "protected" in that way..it is unrelated to the watermarks or the demands...It is understandable if something is not released due to a watermark that can effect someone's job...BUT if the said case is merely "its for your own good cause you can brick your phone" thats what the petition is about and strictly that..lets not bundle multiple issues in 1.
That said, this should have been a poll rather then people responding as it was bound to get discussion within it >.>
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That would be the dev's prerogative/excuse. Again, still no one is entitled to demand for anything around here, as stated by NATF.
zigarath said:
Well what is the real case here because I also read a post saying that the exact same korean dudes info is on the SPRINT stock di18 which,if true, would leave all argument moot. So maybe someone will be kind enough to try and confirm compare stock di18, dg27 etc
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
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Heres the part about the "Korean dude" whos name is on DK05 and DI bklah blah whatever.All that is is the name of the machine that built the build in the first place thats all it is nothing more its not the owner of the leaked build just the name of the machine that built it.
Thanks skeet for clearing this up...have enjoyed ur work thus far and thank u for ur time to educate us.. So to end this please no more arguments or discussions of watermarks endangering an employees job as these arguments are now pointless lets keep threads focused to ops topic...and grow from this
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
No problem I am surprised noboby has said that yet in all the times I have seen people talk about that ShinLi or whatever the name is the the server farm/single machine that spends its life building Android for our phones.
egzthunder1 said:
That would be the dev's prerogative/excuse. Again, still no one is entitled to demand for anything around here, as stated by NATF.
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Its a petition..to try to express the beliefs of the community..as stated its a different issue from the watermark or demand..if the dev doesn't want to release thats fine too..its their choice..but one thing we do demand is respect as based on rule 2.5 (if I am interpreting it correctly)...so we don't want an excuse of "We aren't releasing it because it will brick your phone and you won't know what to do" kind of thing...
this is ridiculous
i haven't posted very much in these forums, and don even have an epic yet. i plan on getting one in feb and was doing research since i haven't been on a stock rom for more than a day in years.
that being said i just wanted to say that no one owes any of us anything. the devs in this community are not here to be your slaves. non of us have any right to ask when a rom will be completed, demand any leaked information, or even have access to this site at all. i don't know about you but i haven't paid a penny for this site and I've gotten plenty of benefit by using the information here.
I just want to say thank you to all the devs on these forums and keep up the good work. i look forward to flashing a customer rom on my future epic as i have on my kaiser, rhodium and aria.
also petition not signed.
gTen said:
Its a petition..to try to express the beliefs of the community..as stated its a different issue from the watermark or demand..if the dev doesn't want to release thats fine too..its their choice..but one thing we do demand is respect as based on rule 2.5 (if I am interpreting it correctly)...so we don't want an excuse of "We aren't releasing it because it will brick your phone and you won't know what to do" kind of thing...
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You are not out of line in wanting respect, once it has been earned. For the record, I am not trying to say that is the case here. But resorting to demands and petitions will not help the overall situation. If you or anyone else feels like someone is behaving in a questionable or suspicious/cocky manner, please use the Report Post option, and we will review and address the situation accordingly.
Bonsai team just released v4.0.0 based on EC05. That's awesome!!
The thread was shortly thereafter closed by scotsman with the folling message
Thread closed until it complies with forum rules.
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With all due respect to scotsman and the other mods (and much is due), this sort of moderation is very frustrating to the community, and sure to create more work and headaches for you guys than simply expending a tiny, miniscule bit of additional effort when you take actions like this:
Explain specifically what the non-compliance is/was.
No one probably would care in the case of the five billionth "Samsung sucks" thread. On a thread like the Bonsai release thread, however, or any similarly popular argulably important (to the community) thread, it is only prudent to be a bit more explanatory when such a severe action is taken.
I was able to successfully get the release, of course. That's not the issue. I have some comments I'd like to post; a few questions too. Failing to see what rule violation has taken place, after reading the thread, I'm left confused, frustrated, and (right or wrong) feeling abused by the moderator (mildly so, to be sure).
Second, there seems to be a catch-22 here: If the thread is non-compliant somehow, and has been closed until it can be made compliant, one is left wondering: How can that happen if the thread is closed?
Scotsman, please update your closure post to help the community better understand what is going on. Save yourself, and the community, some grief. The effort is less than it will take to reply to this thread.
From my understanding it is because you have to register on their site to download it.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
Correct. Download links are not supposed to be posted on sites that require registration. Not to mention the method they do so acts more like a shopping cart/buying system than a download system. It gives a very bad image, and they need to rectify it.
I mean this sincerely, but wouldn't it have been easier to PM the moderator who closed this so that your concerns could be addressed correctly and efficiently?
Honestly I'm glad it was closed. And if you register for that website, you'll see it's money money money, donate here, give us that there... if you want money for it, fine. Sell it. I already have to register for enough crap, I don't need to register for anymore.
Scotsman, keep up the great work that you do!
kelmar13 said:
I mean this sincerely, but wouldn't it have been easier to PM the moderator who closed this so that your concerns could be addressed correctly and efficiently?
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No.
Further, the answers provided here would not have been available to the community. I would have had to post a thread anyway with the answer, hence "not easier".
You may disagree that this information justifies public airing. That's fair. We simply disagree with each other.
But the moderator already said that it wasn't in compliance with forum rules....
Oh well, I'm not worried about it....
Seems petty that XDA is so closed a forum, considering it supports Android, which is supposed to be open source
I "may" understand if it was linking to somewhere where you HAD to pay, but the website only required you to register, not pay.
Seems no one is "allowed" to provide helpful links to anywhere else, kinda sad for an "open source" website.
Actions like that by Mods devastate a community even worse then even the harshest of trolls
Just another example why XDA has the bad rep it does.
byersbw said:
Honestly I'm glad it was closed. And if you register for that website, you'll see it's money money money, donate here, give us that there... if you want money for it, fine. Sell it. I already have to register for enough crap, I don't need to register for anymore.
Scotsman, keep up the great work that you do!
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I completely understand your POV, and it has merit. I don't agree with it (I find it quite easy to spend maybe 30 seconds registering and clicking past the entreaties to donate).
If it violates the forum rules, they should be enforced. I have no problem with that.
What I do have a problem with is mysterious closures of threads. While some here are well-versed on the forum rules, most are not. And even those of us that have read through them in their entirety do not necessarily spot the reason for a closure.
When the specific reason can be so easily put in the closure post, and of course the mod that made the decision knows precisely why they are closing it, it simply is not reasonable to expect thousands of other members to have to go back and commit the equivalent of legal research in the forum rules to figure out what the mod could simply have articulated with a short sentence.
The latter would serve the community far better -- and isn't that a core responsibility of mods?
The forum has the rules it does, and frankly, I don't think the issue of the Bonsai team's approach here to distribution is worth arguing about. It would be an exercise in mental masturbation that would never come to any resolution. Some people are highly irritated by their approach to soliciting donations, some aren't bothered at all (me, for instance). Regardless, they should follow the rules when posting here.
None of that has anything to do with how moderators do their jobs. I have no particularly pointed criticism for scotsman, or any other mod w.r.t. to this issue. Rather, I am suggesting a way to better serve their "customers", and make their own job here easier. They can consider it, or ignore it.
dwallersv said:
(I find it quite easy to spend maybe 30 seconds registering and clicking past the entreaties to donate).
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For what it's worth, I had issues registering and actually getting to the download when I tested it. That has nothing to do with the merit of an off-site download or the need to register, of course.
kelmar13 said:
But the moderator already said that it wasn't in compliance with forum rules....
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An entirely informationless reason.
That's the reason that every closed thread gets closed. It isn't enlightening at all.
dwallersv said:
An entirely informationless reason.
That's the reason that every closed thread gets closed. It isn't enlightening at all.
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Well, the Forum Rules state that
Forum Rules said:
Off-site downloads from sites requiring registration are NOT encouraged but may be permitted if the following conditions are met:
A) the site belongs to a member of XDA-Developers with at least 1500 posts and 2 years membership who actively maintains XDA-Developers' support thread(s) / posts, related to the download,
B) the site is a relatively small personal website without commercial advertising/links (i.e. not a competitor forum-based site with purposes and aims similar to those of XDA-Developers.com.)
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It appears as though Mammon doesn't have 1500 posts which would make him in violation of the rules and thus the reason for his thread being closed.
I'm sure that all of this was explained to him via PM though.
the real issue here is that people with issues can't post them now. but i gotta agree, while registering wasn't that much of a hassle, try downloading the thing from your phone, you gotta go through 16 prompts and 666 other things, speak to satan, make sure jesus is on your side and then you can finally download it. thats a lot of hassle from a phone browser. or you can download it to your computer. connect your phone, speak to satan, make sure jesus is on your side and maybe the computer will decide it llikes the phone enough to show the drive where you can copy it.
but I can go to ACS, click download and have it on my phone in 2 seconds.
I do agree that forums shouldn't get closed like this without explanation, but we saw the same thing with epic experience and frankly usually the quality gets worse not better once this starts to happen. With Epic experience, the rom went from superstable to so buggy it was unusable and the heads started to get quite swelled.
robl45 said:
the real issue here is that people with issues can't post them now. but i gotta agree, while registering wasn't that much of a hassle, try downloading the thing from your phone, you gotta go through 16 prompts and 666 other things, speak to satan, make sure jesus is on your side and then you can finally download it. thats a lot of hassle from a phone browser.
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You're problem, obviously, clearly is that you are not already pre-qualified with Satan and Jesus, as I am, thereby supernaturally being silently led around 15 of the prompts and 665 of the links. Much like a VIP passing the line at a hot nightclub.
Go and register at http://SatanIsMyBud.com and http://JesusDigsMe.com, and you'll avoid these problems. Don't worry about the apparent conflict -- they're enemies, and don't share databases.
I do agree that forums shouldn't get closed like this without explanation, but we saw the same thing with epic experience and frankly usually the quality gets worse not better once this starts to happen. With Epic experience, the rom went from superstable to so buggy it was unusable and the heads started to get quite swelled.
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I understand. At the same time, this is all free, the "providers" are donating their time and effort to us "consumers", so a certain degree of forebearance seems appropriate, IMO.
This is all very personal and subjective, similar in many ways to one's musical tastes. There's no point in arguing "is not! is too!" over such things -- I really don't mind jumping through some hoops for a few minutes to get something awesome for free. But that's just me, and my personality. Others do, and I bear no criticism or ill-will for their perspective.
The one criticism I do have is for those that slag on the guys. If you were paying for a product/service, sure, you have some standing. However, if you're simply taking advantage of their donated work, you certainly have the option not to, and go somewhere else (like ACS, for example). There seem to me nothing good to be accomplished by anyone being so critical, and appearing like a selfish ingrate.
I'm curious to what happened to the noobnl thread where he I believe he called out mammon on the website stuff or something of that nature I didn't get to see his actual post cuz he edited it and today I can't find it anywhere.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
Maybe its just me, but I really didn't need an explanation to figure it out.
Here are the relevant parts exactly how they appear on each of two bonsai threads that were closed:
Current Version Download Links(Please register in-order to download) : mod edit: links removed
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from:http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=976864
and:
Please register in-order to download.
Download: mod edit: link removed
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from:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1001469
Hmm, I wonder why they were closed. Maybe I am just a master of deduction.
muyoso said:
Maybe its just me, but I really didn't need an explanation to figure it out.
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I'm sure it's not just you.
But then, I didn't, and I'm certain there are plenty of others like me too.
What I don't get is the (seeming) arrogance of some in the former camp that lack the basic civility to understand that both outcomes are entirely reasonable, and that intelligent, competent members of the community can arrive at either conclusion.
By "seeming arrogance" I refer to meaningless statements like, "Maybe it's just me", where the intended meaning is culturally well-established, and in my 49 years of life has never -- not once -- been said with any intent other than to denigrate others.
But then, maybe that's just me...
Mammon, Randy, et. al.: I have a suggestion for how to solve this problem.
Post a link to the Wiki, as you've done before, and then put the link to the "offending" site there, instead of a direct download.
I believe that would satisfy the Forum Rules, but of course defer to the moderators. Would any of them -- particularly scotsman -- care to weigh in?
What he needs to do is set it up like midnite rom. How he offers the rom on both sites and keeps the main support at his site and add ons. But that type of stuff irritates me. Just offer all of it here. I hate having to be redirected to another site.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
I was going to try midnight, but I couldn't even find the rom to download. direct downloads really are best, especially from the phone perspective.
jbadboy2007 said:
What he needs to do is set it up like midnite rom. How he offers the rom on both sites and keeps the main support at his site and add ons. But that type of stuff irritates me. Just offer all of it here. I hate having to be redirected to another site.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
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May I remind the armv(k)-team to this section of the forum rules from xda-developers:
2. Member conduct.
2.1 Language: XDA is a worldwide community. As a result what is ‘ok’ to say in your part of the world may not be ok in someone else’s part of the world. Please think about who is reading what you write. Keep in mind that what you think of as acceptable use of language may not be acceptable to others. Conversely, while reading member posts, remember that word you find offensive may not be to the writer. Tolerance is a two way street.
2.2 Nudity: XDA is used by people of all ages, including minors. It's not acceptable to post nude/pornographic imagery, which includes exposure of the male or female genitalia or of female breasts.
2.3 Flaming: XDA was founded as a group of people sharing information about certain mobile phones. Sharing does not involve virtual yelling (flaming) it does involve working together to solve problems in an environment of mutual respect and understanding. Losing your temper and flaming another member, or group of members, is not acceptable behavior.
2.4 Personal attacks, racial, political and/or religious discussions: XDA is a discussion forum about certain mobile phones. Mobile phones are not racial, political, religious or personally offensive, therefore none of these types of discussions are permitted on XDA.
2.5 New Members: Treat new members the way you would have liked to have been treated when you were a new member. Provide the new members with guidance, advice and instruction always with respect and courtesy.
2.6 All members are expected to read and adhere to the XDA rules.
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No need to flame others over your apocalypse rom. It is, after all, just another rom and nothing special that will change the world.
None of your "features" are exclusive to your rom and there's absolutley no reason for *****ing around like that.
I also may quote rule#10:
10. Help others if you can.
If you see posts from others where you can help out, please do. This place exists because people are helping each other, and even if you are relatively new to the matter, there's probably already quite a few people newer than you that would benefit from what you've learned. Don't be shy.
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I don't know about you, but sharing knowledge is what this forum is all about, right?
It's not about fame...
If all this Linux/Android stuff was closed-source, e.g. the developers wouldn't share the "how to" then you wouldn't be able to build a custom rom in the first place. None of this knowledge is exclusively yours.
What do you think you are? Privileged nobility?
Correct me, if I'm wrong, but you didn't invent any of this, did you?
You copied what you saw elsewhere. And exchanging a "b" for an "a" doesn't make it "your" work...
And next time you pirate some movie or mp3 from the internet (I know you will), please think about your reaction!
mokopokko said:
May I remind the armv(k)-team to this section of the forum rules from xda-developers:
No need to flame others over your apocalypse rom. It is, after all, just another rom and nothing special that will change the world.
None of your "features" are exclusive to your rom and there's absolutley no reason for *****ing around like that.
I also may quote rule#10:
I don't know about you, but sharing knowledge is what this forum is all about, right?
It's not about fame...
If all this Linux/Android stuff was closed-source, e.g. the developers wouldn't share the "how to" then you wouldn't be able to build a custom rom in the first place. None of this knowledge is exclusively yours.
What do you think you are? Privileged nobility?
Correct me, if I'm wrong, but you didn't invent any of this, did you?
You copied what you saw elsewhere. And exchanging a "b" for an "a" doesn't make it "your" work...
And next time you pirate some movie or mp3 from the internet (I know you will), please think about your reaction!
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Hope they read this
I do not agree. They have seen their work posted before release, from unknown guy. Anyone would go upset.
No. They always said things like "if you want jit and cannot wait, search the internet like we did."
Someone did and found their method.
Owned.
And I don't think that a standard feature of android can be claimed as "their" work.
If they don't want "their" work to be used, they should program their own android without gpl license...
If everybody thought like this none of this stuff that makes android so much better than for example ios would exist.
It's just the wrong attitude.
And btw, they also ripped themes and images without giving proper credits at first.
"whoops, forgot to mention the original creator"
But no one complained.
Now it's their work that gets "compromised" and they act like total jerks.
I dunno....either you wanna share your stuff and expertise like it is ment or you build your own rom just for yourself without bothering others.
Noone really needs a custom rom and noone has to provide one.
Everything that has been achieved already more than we accepted when we bought a g3 with 2.1 as is...
I cant speak in the name of my other members in term of the cursing part
I always was clean in my words, never said bad words
But in that from other parts "Sorry"
I dont mind sharing stuff or anything as said before
The only thing is people taking credit on other peoples work, its not about fame its about been correct
The files got corrupt, so we will never know the truth, but i think that has been settled
THe main problem here was someone that got the coding before release and sent it out behing our back
Nuff said
Best Regards
Motafoca
Dude. First stop reminders and start helping people. Look at your post count. Dont try to be smart. Next be a developer and then you will know how it pains when some one stole your months hard work and sleepless nights. So better stop posting and start helping.
MOD: Please review this thread and delete.
Your work was leaked by your own team. You said the last time to everyone: "if you want JIT then search for it". Someone has done that found your leaked version and has shared this with us. So you can't just come in here like rudolf and start yelling and offending on everybody who wanted JIT. If something is leaked by your team members its NOT right to blame the Community for that.
After all, thank you for JIT.
shadow7582 said:
Your work was leaked by your own team. You said the last time to everyone: "if you want JIT then search for it". Someone has done that found your leaked version and has shared this with us. So you can't just come in here like rudolf and start yelling and offending on everybody who wanted JIT. If something is leaked by your team members its NOT right to blame the Community for that.
After all, thank you for JIT.
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dont you get it!
We stopped it! You fools are starting it again! man you guys are like dirty filthy crabs! pulling our legs to your dirt all the time!
"shadow7582" BEAT IT! go get some fresh air!
mokopokko said:
No. They always said things like "if you want jit and cannot wait, search the internet like we did."
Someone did and found their method.
Owned.
And I don't think that a standard feature of android can be claimed as "their" work.
If they don't want "their" work to be used, they should program their own android without gpl license...
If everybody thought like this none of this stuff that makes android so much better than for example ios would exist.
It's just the wrong attitude.
And btw, they also ripped themes and images without giving proper credits at first.
"whoops, forgot to mention the original creator"
But no one complained.
Now it's their work that gets "compromised" and they act like total jerks.
I dunno....either you wanna share your stuff and expertise like it is ment or you build your own rom just for yourself without bothering others.
Noone really needs a custom rom and noone has to provide one.
Everything that has been achieved already more than we accepted when we bought a g3 with 2.1 as is...
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100% agreed
EdisDee said:
100% agreed
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KID. who the hell are you. I dont know why you are jumping in. You said 100% agree and breaking rules.
No more smart people here. Dont make it complicated.
"Dude" why don't you mind your attidute?
No offense intended, merely stating out facts. If you don't like it, don't like it.
And wtf has my post count to do with all that? Who sais that I'm not an better developer than you? My post count? Come on, give me some credit.
I don't try to be "smart", I try to be resonable.
I think it's not just me that is somewhat annoyed with your attitude.
Because it's against the basic idea.
It's not development related, so I posted it here. You don't want my oppinion. Don't read it.
So better stop flaming innocent people, start reading the forum rules (you obviosly need to, no matter your post count or position inside the community) and then work on your kernel or whatever.
Don't get me wrong. I appreciate your work and am looking forward to it, but I don't like your "policy".
Mokopokko
The persons involved arent complaining, dont come here and troll with other peoples stuff
If the people involved want to complain fine, but you dont have nothing to do with it
Go find something else to do
Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot this is your topic.
It's not primarily about your guys work being leaked (believe it or not: you're not the most important parts of my life), I was merely intending to make you guys think about this "freedom of knowledge", "sharing" and "community" thing.
I don't know why you start to insult me.
If you don't want to discuss, don't discuss. It's really that simple.
If noone wants to comment on this thread, noone will and it will be on page 2 tomorrow.
I don't think it's trolling at all.
Flaming on the other hand is defenitly what you guys are doing.
I repeat the same to you. why are you reading and overposting. You are acting smarter now. If you have problem go complain to mods and let them take action if some thing is wrong. Who the hell are you to remind us. If you dont like shut u r as. No big deal. You are breaking forum rules by posting nonsense and wasting our time.
I think only one thing, we must be grateful to this guys for their free work. Here many of us can search on internet and copy the work of others but few know how to do it.
I'm waiting for yours rom since I have seen the announce of Apocalypse.
Then good work and thank you ARMV team.
Edit: sorry for my bad english
Sent from my GT-I5800 using Tapatalk
warning to all
hi
a warning to ALL no flaming this thread is closed if any more of this is happens them some one is gona get a Ban pls dont force me to do so
THREAD CLOSED
And the thread was closed... (Dissent causes censure).
Fellow Community: Something going arawy in the Samsung I9100 (Galaxy S2) forums.
The purpose of me opening this thread is to ensure community discussion occurs.
With good intentions, our User Experinance Admin @sveitus has sliced apart The Samsung Galaxy S II Android Development, hiving off `the cream` into The Samsung Galaxy S II Original ROM development thread.
The idea being to Quoting (and please read @sveitus's post in case I'm selectively quoting) the explanitory thread
This forum is for ROMs that aren't an original creation by you in terms of the underlying software, meaning, they've been either 1. developed with assistance from a kitchen or are 2. a re-skinning/re-themeing/minor adjustment of a particular ROM developed by someone else.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Original ROM's are now found within this subforum
Setting aside the lunacy of thinking that anything apart from ASOP and Samsung's stock ROM isn't derived from something else... or the difficulties in determining which belongs in one thread or another (just watch them bouncy from one to another), I find a two things contra XDA ethos.
This subdivision was done without community consultation.
When announced, there was rapid dissent and the response was to close the thread (for heavens sake).
In fairness, to quote @sveitus
P.S. This is a bit of an experiment. Should it make sense, we'll roll it out to other forums on XDA
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
, although my concern is that there is no criteria laid down for "success"
I believe this is a reaction, maybe considered, to two things:
I believe that proportion of the community would like to see forums divided (from what I can tell, divided into Kernels, ROMs and Modems), a proportion are comfortable (complacenty abiding with?) the current structure and a proportion who want to differentiate `original` with `derived`. As is also common in politics, the silent majority will be ignored in favour of the loud minority. I suspect that the democratic view is unknown in this instance.
I believe that this split is a knee jerk reaction to an unfortunate incident where someone released a ROM claiming their own work when (to be confirmed?) all bar part of a theme was taken raw from another source uncredited.
Personally speaking, for a mod to close a thread without explaination isn't easily forgiveable.
What say you?
p.s. (edit) We already have different classes of users based on number of postings, etc.
The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.
svetius said:
The forums are not going to be divided. What we did with Galaxy S II was just an experiment...an attempt to keep themes/derivative ROMs (that are based on other ROMs) separate from everything else. Never was this about separating "top tier" developers from everyone else.
As we are going to announce today, we're working on a long-term solution for this, through a ROM database.
Thanks for your feedback.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for the quick response. I guess the division of the Samsung S2 forum was an incredibly short lived experiment and I imagine they are being remerged as I type and that themes can live where always should have in their own `themes and apps` sub forum.
I do understand why it is desirable to identify deriviative ROMs (hint: Look at the HD2 Android Dev forum(s) rules to see a great example of useful identification tags in subjects).
Sending you a pm regarding the closure of the thread (for the purpose of me opening this thread was to offer awareness and give our community a voice.
I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from and just want a category which just contains ROMS, no sitckies, no dev no "coming" soons, just fully flashable ROMS. Now if you could so this it would make this area much easier to use.
I have to say I just don't get this ROM theft rubbish, Android is supposed to be open source, if you don't want to share your ROM don't post it full stop. If donations are'nt good enough for you then don't post it. If someone uses your work then see it as a compliment and live with it. Adding rules and further layers of complexity to the ROM cooking process is just causing arguments that need not be there. Cooks have to accept that their work is going to used, DEVs also as long as it isn't actually an app.
Now if this attitude puts some people off then the ROMS posted will be fewer in number but populated with those lovingly crafted for the sake of it and not by those who simply want ego boosts to or to generate a profit, this isnt what open source or XDA is supposed to be about...!
discuss..
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
With you on the rest of it.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
stoolzo said:
...Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In a perfect world, that would be ideal. Relying on people to do the right thing would unfortunately lead to chaos. Why? Should we get rid of police officers and courts and just rely on people to "do the right thing"? Nice idea, however the world you mention is fantasy.
stoolzo said:
I'm just a user and I wonder how many other user dont really care where there ROMS have come from
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
tomj777 said:
I think we need to be careful about open. If I was to take the post above, change a couple of words and claim as my own then you would be understandably upset that i plagiarised your work. However, if I reply, building upon your message and credit you then that's a positive thing.
Open source is the same.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.
stoolzo said:
Not at all, I strongly believe open source should be just that and that alone, plagiarism should not even exist on here. There should be no rules for cooking or ingredients at all. If everyone worked this way then there would be no complaints, everyone would just be sharing everything, we may even see better roms even if we do loose a few players.
Best option is no rules, anything goes and rely on people to do the right thing, those that don't will soon come to light and be appropriately chastised I am sure, this should be good enough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.
khein said:
I for one, also don't care which came from which. Though I understand the devs' who want to protect their fame/donations, which I think the primary reason for these copying disputes.
This is true especially if money is involve.
ROM DEV A created a GOOD ROM = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%
ROM DEV B, IMPROVED/CUSTOMIZED ROM OF DEV A = donation of ROM DEV B = xx% = donation of ROM DEV A = 100%-xx%
NOTE: Above is just an example.
I think "orig" ROM devs feels that the donations coming to "derivative" ROM devs should have been theirs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.
Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave
egzthunder1 said:
Our society/community is far from the utopic concept that you talk about. I would love nothing more than to not have to enforce any rules in here, trusting that people would just do the right thing, but unfortunately this is far from over. Quite frankly matters got much worse after the introduction of Android. Back when xda was solely focused on Windows Mobile, plagiarism was something that was hardly ever seen around these areas. Everyone had work out in the open, work which they gladly shared with everyone just for the advancement of the platform (and partial resentment against Microsoft ). That work was always credited, any and all help was always acknowledged, and people were all working together towards the same goal. If you want a more utopic XDA, go back 4 years in time and you will find one. Funny enough, it wasn't until Android hit that I learned that this site had moderators. I knew about the administrators but not about moderators... that is how utopic this place was. And if you look at my join date, I have been active here for a very long time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.
DaveShaw said:
Something I think has been missed from these discussions is...
One of the objectives here is to make it easier for users to finds ROMs that just variants of one they already have; the same underlying code base, but with tweaks to improve the user experience; and ROMs with actual improvements - bug fixes, major improvements, etc.
I'm not trying to make a point here, just illustrate another reason for the changes.
Dave
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.
egzthunder1 said:
No, you are missing the point completely. In your equation, simply replace the word "donation" with the word "feedback". What is dev B going to do with feedback that was meant to go for dev A? Or better yet, if all that dev B did was throw theme packages together and zipped them into a flashable rom, what can dev B do when feedback comes to him asking him to fix something? Dev A needs these feedback and bug reports to improve his work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?
stoolzo said:
The anything goes really can only be the way forward here because what you are are suggesting in any form is a total nightmare for users which completely defeats the object of XDA, remove ease of use and usefulness and you have no XDA and people will start to leave in droves.
If you agree that 4 years ago was far more ideal than it is currently then why aren't you trying to pull things back to where it was then? All you have to do is to post new rules about XDA stepping back on moderation and leaving users to self moderate. Advise that you will still deal with complaints but on a case by case basis by email and not be thread posts, setup and [email protected] or something. Just moderate the legal and unpleasant stuff.
yes it would be nice to have a one fits all system were everyone would receive the exact amount praise or donations for the work done, in proportion to what effort was put in, this WILL NEVER HAPPEN, if you keep loading layer up layer of complexity on top then you will just break it altogether, plus when something is open source nobody has the right to anything, praise, donations, nothing, open source is about good will, not profit, not fame or fortune. I think XDA allows themselves to get to mixed up in this.
Sometimes you just got to sit back and say F*ck it and let things ride.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Users did not self moderate 4+ years ago.... there was less need for moderation. You didn't see constant intervention by mods, not because the rules were not in place or because the mods were not around, but rather because there was no drama in the titanic proportions that we see it daily. It is very easy to speak from the regular member's stand point, but the amount of stuff that we (mods and admins) see going through this site day in and day out since the smartphone market exploded would make you want to jump out of a window!
You are suggesting, in essence, that we do away with our rules and let people "do the right thing." Why? Our rules have been in place since early 2003 when the site was founded. For over 5 years, these rules have made xda-developers the site that many regard today as the largest developer community on the web.
You speak of the objective of XDA, what do you think this is? Do you know what the true mission of this site is? XDA is a development and hacking community. It isn't end users that make this community, it is developers, hackers, and enthusiast that are the back-bone of this site. Do you want to know what XDA truly is about?
Read this
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2031989&postcount=45
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is the true ethos of XDA. This is what our community and founding members believed and still do regarding how our site should work and what our members should do to "fit" here.
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
khein said:
I have yet to experience what your talking about. ROM B has a problem? Moved to ROM A..
Derived ROM Dev tells "ORIG" ROM Dev an issue? "ORIG" ROM Dev replies that his/her ROM users doesn't report issues, and tells he/she(derived ROM dev) must have done something wrong.
That is normally what happens, because most bugs/issues are found by the "ORIG" rom users.
What if I hosted a copy/modified/derived version of the XDA forums. And my so-called derived XDA forum managed to gain some fame/high activity, even managed to catch up with xda's status/market share. Then one day, a major issue occured, and I couldn't fix it as the problem seems to come from the "ORIG" xda source BUT the "ORIG" xda forum doesn't have this problem. Do you think the XDA admin, would even bother to help me fix my derived XDA forum seeing that his "ORIG" forum could replicate the problem?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Tbh I think you miss the point. We aren't saying derivative roms aren't important. Of course they are. I even use them occasionally myself. If I'm having an issue with a rom I'm using, of course I will try and help fix the bug. What we are trying to do is aid developers by splitting the forums up into two clear sections
stoolzo said:
I see what you were trying to do but it was a huge fail, it was a nice thought but its better just to shove all the ROMS together and let people try them as just because a ROM says it has this, that or the other it doesn't mean it will work as reported and it may have something the flasher wont like. All XDA needs to do is present the information clearly and leave the user to make up their own mind.
I see no need to break down the subs further other than to put ROMS in their own folder, that would definitely make things easier as the current ROM/DEV folder is a total mess.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That wasn't the only reason you know. Just one of the consequences of the new idea that seems to have been overlooked thus far.
stoolzo said:
Hi, firstly I am not talking about XDA as a whole, I fully understand the need for general forum rules and regs, I am simply talking here about cooking for android, I am not trying to tell you how to run your shop. Cooking for Android is different I think as Android is supposed to open source, on one hand people should not be expecting anything in return for the work but on the other it is implied that they will as this is a good will based forum, it should remain that way (again for android only I cannot speak for other platforms)
I am simply of the opinion, regarding cooking and only cooking that trying to police this is impossible,
I certainly understand how frustrating it can be for genuine devs and people who put a lot of effort into customising a ROM but it is just impossible to weed out the good from the bad as you have clearly found, plenty has already been said on this so I dont really need to say any more.
Its is certainly true that XDA has changed, its grown into something completely different, perhaps its time for major rethink and not just sticking plasters
Have you thought about setting up a tier forum system?.
Tier one: would be invite only by MODs, this would be a completely seperate forum, laid out in the same way but on a different URL maybe. This would be mainly for devs and cooks, people on here could create, view and edits posts on here and also on the standard main forum as it is now.
Tier two: would be invite only or based on numbers of posts and / or numbers of thankyou's perhaps. (from different users). You would be able to view tier 1 but not post. YOu would be able to view and post the standard forum.
tier three: no access to view tier one, can edit and post on the main standard forum only much like a user can a the moment.
Tier 4: read only access to main form (until they join)
People on Tier 1 would then be able to disucss and share stuff without the background hum of zillions of noob questions and posts, this would also be a lot more decure as invite only would keep out the riff raff.
Tier two people would then have an incentive to contribute more to dev and so reach tier 1 status. You could also use this system as a punishment, people cold be denied access to higher levels if they infringe on rules.
Sounds a little eliteist doesnt it?, well it is a little but I probably wont ever make tier one but can understand the need for something like this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey,
Tier 1 does sorta exist It's the recognized developer program, which has an area for this.
If I'm honest, what you describe sounds very much like the new system, with a "big stuff" section (the rec dev area), then a tier 2 area, where the "original" stuff goes, and a tier 3 area for the remainder?
well, not really, my way does not seeks to discourage people by singling out their work, however apparently trivial it may appear to be inferior to others - openly...
My idea was really about giving the more technical / coding minded people more of a say in how they work, somewhere more quiet to share and discuss stuff. If you say this already exists then why don't you extend it to encompass the more favoured cooks?, the more stuff worked on and completed at this level will leave less to fight over at my level.
I still think you should put all the ROMS back together in one category and kick out all the other dev stuff into to its own, if only to help us lowly users find out next ROM more easily, don't forget about us