but i work for best buy mobile and my boss knows i would marry android.
she told me today she got an email about the EVO but before she could check it we got busy as hell. but anyways im not trieng to get anyone all excited but just thought i throw any info i get to you all
ill find out tom. what it was.
Doubtful it will be anything substantial but nontheless keep us informed bro.
Cheers!
Over on Android forums there's an insider that has predicted everything that has happened with this phone, and listed specs before it was even the Evo. He's pretty reliable.
Anyways, he's saying the Evo will launch on June 6th for Best Buy, Radio Shack, etc, and for Sprint on the 13th. If not the 6th for retail stores, then the 13th for everyone.
Pre-orders will start in mid- to late May.
keatre said:
Over on Android forums there's an insider that has predicted everything that has happened with this phone, and listed specs before it was even the Evo. He's pretty reliable.
Anyways, he's saying the Evo will launch on June 6th for Best Buy, Radio Shack, etc, and for Sprint on the 13th. If not the 6th for retail stores, then the 13th for everyone.
Pre-orders will start in mid- to late May.
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thats true its a good forum
Abbens said:
thats true its a good forum
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any scoop on pricing?
ha well you all know. but anyways its the may12th event in NY. i totally forgot i posted this :X sorry but anyways ill get more info tom. and hopefully remember lol
thats a day after my birthday! haha
mountaindont said:
any scoop on pricing?
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Click to collapse
The rumors are going everywhere on this. People are saying that since Sprint said it will be price competitively, that it should be around the 200 mark. However, others are saying the TP2 (all be that its a world phone built for business class) was priced A LOT higher than 200 upon release. Furthermore, since the Evo is the first phone for the US to incorporate 4G along with the mobile-hot spot, a giant screen, and Sprint's history of not having a freakin clue as to how to price phones "competitively" it could be as high as $300, but then, that would be pretty stupid to do as the iPhone will be released shortly after (if the release window stays in the late May early June slot)
tl;dr - $200 - $250
Avalaunchmods said:
but anyways its the may12th event in NY. i totally forgot i posted this :X sorry but anyways ill get more info tom. and hopefully remember lol
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Click to collapse
Not sure if this will include the Evo or not. It's just a screening of Bruckheimer movies. BUT! They did show the Prince of Persia trailer at CTIA, soooo.. I'll let you think on that.
Related
I recently noticed an updated *unofficial* release date for the EVO on phonearena.com ...link here: http://www.phonearena.com/htmls/Sprint-carrier-c_2_3.html
This says April 16th. Can this be? Anyone know where they get their information? I have noticed in the past they generally only put release dates on that are somewhat reliable, or they will put 'unannounced' or something more general like 'summer'.
Any other sources point to an april release date? If so, i am dumping vzw and rejoining sprint!
***EDIT: MOST RECENT RUMORS POINT TO JUNE 6 OR 13...PHONE ARENA NOW HAS AN UNOFFICIAL DATE POSTED OF JUNE 13.
I believe sprint when they say summer
Again, rumors are just that, RUMORS... And it's nearing April Fools, which is cruel to us tech geeks... But a lot of online places have started reporting May for a release date. Check out the link and google some more.
EDIT: So I can't post links because I'm a noob, but Google it and you should find some articles.
April 16th Sprint will start taking PreOrders. Went down to my local Sprint store today. That Evo Is SICK!!!!
April 16th Sprint will start taking PreOrders. Went down to my local Sprint store today. That Evo Is SICK!!!!
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Click to collapse
A Sprint rep at the store told you this?
FYI...
fourtwentyteam said:
April 16th Sprint will start taking PreOrders. Went down to my local Sprint store today. That Evo Is SICK!!!!
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Click to collapse
Sprint reps are morons they say one thing and you go to another store and hear something else.
fourtwentyteam said:
April 16th Sprint will start taking PreOrders. Went down to my local Sprint store today. That Evo Is SICK!!!!
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Click to collapse
Nah i'll pass on getting it at a Sprint store. BestBuy as usual might have better prices out the door sans mail-in-rebate rubbish.
LordLugard said:
Nah i'll pass on getting it at a Sprint store. BestBuy as usual might have better prices out the door sans mail-in-rebate rubbish.
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That's where i'm going
Working for Radioshack I feel I'm obligated to say this. We willl have it release day, at least 1 in store if it is a busy store. My sprint rep will be getting his demo soon and I was promised I could use it before release behind closed doors to the public. So if I manage to get my hands on it before release I will let you all know how cool it is!
-Charlie
dahui9 said:
Working for Radioshack I feel I'm obligated to say this. We willl have it release day, at least 1 in store if it is a busy store. My sprint rep will be getting his demo soon and I was promised I could use it before release behind closed doors to the public. So if I manage to get my hands on it before release I will let you all know how cool it is!
-Charlie
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i hate u!!!
dav1boy said:
i hate u!!!
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I hate me 2 because the only way I will be able to get one is to buy it outright and put it on my employee plan...
I hope the phone is in the $500 range outright though
-Charlie
I'm guessing it will come out either late May or early June. Either way, it's going to be one amazing phone
Cata-Kai said:
I'm guessing it will come out either late May or early June.
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Looks like you're on the money http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=659768
So apparently we now have an official release date?
http://androidandme.com/2010/04/pho...early-june-4g-mobile-hotspot-for-10-20-extra/
So apparently we now have an official release date?
http://androidandme.com/2010/04/pho...early-june-4g-mobile-hotspot-for-10-20-extra/
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Seems like we do.
Sent from my HERO200 using the XDA mobile application powered by Tapatalk
I looked in my email today to some surprising information. As many of you know Best Buy purchases the phones from the company therefore we can sell the phone at OUR price with NO rebates.
The new contract price will be $199. thats all i know. and all anyone knows. the phone will be released the second week of june. I get a hands on with the device on may 17th. soooo pumped. and i will keep you all updated the more i find out. that is 2 days before the may 19th event in new york. but anyways im pumped. you should be too.
Its going to be information over load soon enough and I for one can't wait
Avalaunchmods said:
I looked in my email today to some surprising information. As many of you know Best Buy purchases the phones from the company therefore we can sell the phone at OUR price with NO rebates.
The new contract price will be $199. thats all i know. and all anyone knows. the phone will be released the second week of june. I get a hands on with the device on may 17th. soooo pumped. and i will keep you all updated the more i find out. that is 2 days before the may 19th event in new york. but anyways im pumped. you should be too.
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i was too busy to look at my email tonight... i will see in the morning... now i am excited...i have an upgrade waiting to be used on this phone!
This is great news. So when can we start preordering. Will this be having the same warranty as getting it from sprint? Thanks.
Magus_doc said:
This is great news. So when can we start preordering. Will this be having the same warranty as getting it from sprint? Thanks.
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i work at bby but i recommend them even if i didnt. get geek squad black tie protection. 9.99 a month and it covers everything on earth. literally everything.
and there was no info on anything else. my manager is top in sales in ky/tenn region. she is a big dog around here and has connections that she uses for me
but anyways the second i hear more ill report it back here.
i cant get fired for this right?
Avalaunchmods said:
i work at bby but i recommend them even if i didnt. get geek squad black tie protection. 9.99 a month and it covers everything on earth. literally everything.
and there was no info on anything else. my manager is top in sales in ky/tenn region. she is a big dog around here and has connections that she uses for me
but anyways the second i hear more ill report it back here.
i cant get fired for this right?
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Am I the only person who laughs when i hear 'geek squad' and 'protection' or warranty in the same sentence, and being used in a good way.
mrono said:
Am I the only person who laughs when i hear 'geek squad' and 'protection' or warranty in the same sentence, and being used in a good way.
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No, you're not...
And you're sure that its the second week of June? The rumor these days is its headed for a very late May release... Ideas?
Check this out:
http://forum.ppcgeeks.com/showthread.php?p=1729740#post1729740
West650 said:
Check this out:
http://forum.ppcgeeks.com/showthread.php?p=1729740#post1729740
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wow. i cant really believe that. they have to do training for new phones. and that training hasnt been done. a friend of mine who works in texas at a sprint corporate store hasnt heard a word.
well that would be wild though lol
Deleting leaked info
http://briefmobile.com/official-atrix-4g-release-date-february-22nd
EDIT: It's official now! Release date on the 22nd. Shipped orders to arrive on the 21st!
EDIT: Pre-orders before yesterday are now shipped! They will be delivered on the 21st!
I'd like to think its legit, but there seem to be so many people pulling hoaxes these days for attention. On a positive note, I've gotten a lot of at&t phones on launch day, and I'm pretty sure 1 or 2 wasn't on a Sunday.
BoostedSR20 said:
I'd like to think its legit, but there seem to be so many people pulling hoaxes these days for attention. On a positive note, I've gotten a lot of at&t phones on launch day, and I'm pretty sure 1 or 2 wasn't on a Sunday.
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Click to collapse
True true. Everyone wants to make a picture that shows up in the news. This one looks no more legit than the last.
Which means AT&T has 6 days to fix this backorder issue, or preorders are going to get screwed.
People will walk in-store and grab theirs, while we wait at the mailbox for our preorders.
another sign?
http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/16/motorola-pushes-up-atrix-4g-launch-to-feb-22-shoves-xoom-pre-s/
majik8ball said:
another sign?
http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/16/motorola-pushes-up-atrix-4g-launch-to-feb-22-shoves-xoom-pre-s/
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Woot! 10char
the earlier i get my hand on one of these puppies the better
majik8ball said:
another sign?
http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/16/motorola-pushes-up-atrix-4g-launch-to-feb-22-shoves-xoom-pre-s/
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And the plot thickens.
BoostedSR20 said:
And the plot thickens.
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Not to steal from MikeyMike10 (Captivate forums)..... but.....
Haha perfect.
I work for AT&T, I haven't seen that message that is going around about early release yet but it looks legit. It mentions internal systems that we use and we have all the price tags up in store. It's rare for use to put a spot on the wall for a phone that is several weeks out.
Sent from my Desire HD using XDA App
its been years since i've posted on XDA back when I had my HTC Fuze. Moved onto a Moto Droid 1. I am getting this phone the day it comes out! i hop ethis rumor is true.
djackson1500 said:
I work for AT&T, I haven't seen that message that is going around about early release yet but it looks legit. It mentions internal systems that we use and we have all the price tags up in store. It's rare for use to put a spot on the wall for a phone that is several weeks out.
Sent from my Desire HD using XDA App
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Click to collapse
Thanks for the post!
Message seems legit, though I haven't seen this email passed amongst the ranks of store employees yet. That would be very awesome if it comes to be true, I can't take another day of my Samsung Moment and Sprint's poor coverage where I live.
The wife and I have our upgrades on the 26th, I hope you guys have a chance to wring this thing out for 4 days before we go get ours.
Holy crap I hope this is true. I am about to throw my Fuze out of window
I didn't realize how many of us are still clinging to our fuzes.
It also looks like they finally fixed the Premiere store for people wanting upgrades. Yesterday it would only let me upgrade to an iPhone (any variety) and some crappy Nokia. This morning it allowed me to upgrade to anything.
Here's to hoping that it really is the 22nd!
Oh, and anyone want an ATT Nexus One?
ram8704 said:
I didn't realize how many of us are still clinging to our fuzes.
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Click to collapse
Still have mine, but i got fed up with it a year into my contract, and bought an Aria. happy to move up to a more powerful android.
Posted this somewhere else but Received this email JUST now:
Thank you for your recent purchase from the AT&T Premier Online Store. We're pleased that you chose AT&T as your service provider.
You may have received an e-mail today referencing: "AT&T Premier: Order xxxxx items are on backorder". Please disregard this email. We apologize for any confusion this email may have caused.
Your pre-order for Motorola Atrix on 12-FEB-11 is still scheduled to ship as early as February 22, 2011.
As a reminder, you will receive an email from the AT&T Premier Team confirming shipment along with the carrier information and tracking number to track your shipment online.
Your web order number:
If you purchased other devices with this order, we will ship your complete order starting February 22, 2011.
We appreciate your business and look forward to having you as a customer.
Thank you for choosing AT&T,
The AT&T Premier Team
This email was auto-generated. Please do not respond.
© 2011 AT&T Intellectual Property. All rights reserved. AT&T and AT&T logo are trademarks of AT&T
Intellectual Property.
The salesguy told me that pre-ordering will start on Feb. 20 and that the actual launch day has yet to be confirmed because "google is still doing last minute tweaks to Honeycomb." They're hoping for February 27th.
Also, he said he is unaware of the wifi-only model--I assume he means when it will be released since we have confirmation that one does exist.
Any finally, most interesting, is that if you buy a 3G version, in order to upgrade it to 4G, Motorola will be sending you an empty box to ship the xoom back to them so they can make the upgrade. They are promising a one week turn-around.
This guy may be ill-informed but he sounded like he knew what he was talking about. Just an FYI to the community.
BTW: I live in Ft. Lauderdale, FL (called local BB)
The 4G upgrade is software based and we'll get it OTA.
I would think that the Xooms are already boxed up sitting in a warehouse. However, I really dont know how quick they can go from the production line to shipping to the stores... but it may be possible to so that within a few days.
I hope its not pushed back, but I'd rather have a good experience out of the box then wait 2-3 weeks for an OTA patch.
kenyu73 said:
The 4G upgrade is software based and we'll get it OTA.
I would think that the Xooms are already boxed up sitting in a warehouse. However, I really dont know how quick they can go from the production line to shipping to the stores... but it may be possible to so that within a few days.
I hope its not pushed back, but I'd rather have a good experience out of the box then wait 2-3 weeks for an OTA patch.
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no the guy was right, the xoom comes with a evdo radio only. they have to add the lte radio in there but its at no cost. their probably is an ota for 4g but its not the only requirement. im ready to pick one up my self but if it comes with better experience for me later then i can wait.
socomdark said:
no the guy was right, the xoom comes with a evdo radio only. they have to add the lte radio in there but its at no cost. their probably is an ota for 4g but its not the only requirement. im ready to pick one up my self but if it comes with better experience for me later then i can wait.
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Click to collapse
I was thinking it was some chip to replace, then I stumbled on another tech site that simply stated it was a software patch.
Sending the Xoom to MOTO for chip replacement is going to cost MOTO 100's of thousands of dollars; i dont get it. Unless we have to pay for shipping.
If sending it in is a requirement I think they need to disclose that in advance. If I was buying one and the LTE upgrade was a factor, I wouldn't want to have to send it in to be upgraded and be without it for a week or more.
Think I'll wait longer for the WiFi model than deal with that.
I could have sworn that they said the LTE update would be OTA during CES, but I admit, I could be wrong.
Xevilious said:
I could have sworn that they said the LTE update would be OTA during CES, but I admit, I could be wrong.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
here's a link from androidcentral
http://www.androidcentral.com/motor...ardware-upgrade-4g-software-patch-microsd-use
it wasnt the link i was looking for but i know androidcentral is also a credible source but if you search for it you will see that it needs a hardware upgrade. As for the upgrades costing motorola, they are probably already getting their cut from the price of the xoom. Sanjay said the price of the xoom is justifiable because its 4g upgradeable which might mean they already figured in the cost of 4g upgrade with original price of xoom. It sucks for us because those who arent in 4g coverage are getting charged for it but its a smart move by moto since 100% of the tablets they sell wont be all coming back.
The more I read, the more I want to wait for wifi only. I hear that Costco has a 90 day return policy. I want the tablet so bad, I may spring for one and hope the wifi model comes out b4 the 90 days...
socomdark said:
here's a link from androidcentral
http://www.androidcentral.com/motor...ardware-upgrade-4g-software-patch-microsd-use
it wasnt the link i was looking for but i know androidcentral is also a credible source but if you search for it you will see that it needs a hardware upgrade. As for the upgrades costing motorola, they are probably already getting their cut from the price of the xoom. Sanjay said the price of the xoom is justifiable because its 4g upgradeable which might mean they already figured in the cost of 4g upgrade with original price of xoom. It sucks for us because those who arent in 4g coverage are getting charged for it but its a smart move by moto since 100% of the tablets they sell wont be all coming back.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good point. I would have done the same thing if I was them. Probably only going to get a 40% return, if that, for the 4G upgrade. It's all just added revenue to them. And once the LTE upgrade is installed on new out-the-door units, they'll still be making a larger profit due to the higher price.
The $200 difference between WiFi and the 3G model make a lot more sense now if you've got to send it in.
pathtologos said:
The salesguy told me that pre-ordering will start on Feb. 20 and that the actual launch day has yet to be confirmed because "google is still doing last minute tweaks to Honeycomb." They're hoping for February 27th.
Also, he said he is unaware of the wifi-only model--I assume he means when it will be released since we have confirmation that one does exist.
Any finally, most interesting, is that if you buy a 3G version, in order to upgrade it to 4G, Motorola will be sending you an empty box to ship the xoom back to them so they can make the upgrade. They are promising a one week turn-around.
This guy may be ill-informed but he sounded like he knew what he was talking about. Just an FYI to the community.
BTW: I live in Ft. Lauderdale, FL (called local BB)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
this might be why if it has to do with software.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/feb/16/google-music-itunes-competitor-android
maybe they are adding google music to it. none of the people who had hands on mentioned it. maybe google wanted to sneak in something so they could get a suprise in against the competition.
socomdark said:
this might be why if it has to do with software.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/feb/16/google-music-itunes-competitor-android
maybe they are adding google music to it. none of the people who had hands on mentioned it. maybe google wanted to sneak in something so they could get a suprise in against the competition.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was thinking the same thing. I think adding google music to the xoom out of the box will be huge for Google.
pathtologos said:
The salesguy told me that pre-ordering will start on Feb. 20 and that the actual launch day has yet to be confirmed because "google is still doing last minute tweaks to Honeycomb." They're hoping for February 27th.
Also, he said he is unaware of the wifi-only model--I assume he means when it will be released since we have confirmation that one does exist.
Any finally, most interesting, is that if you buy a 3G version, in order to upgrade it to 4G, Motorola will be sending you an empty box to ship the xoom back to them so they can make the upgrade. They are promising a one week turn-around.
This guy may be ill-informed but he sounded like he knew what he was talking about. Just an FYI to the community.
BTW: I live in Ft. Lauderdale, FL (called local BB)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you talk to the store manager or just sales rep? Let me know the name and I will try and dig a little more. {have several contacts in Minneapolis}
You should know that you can't trust a single thing a BB employee tells you, even if he was the store manager. Only trust that which is on an official handout. If that employee pulls out a printout like the leaked info.. then you can trust him. To test, just call the same store every 2 hours and see how often you get an employee swear by something different than another employee.
What's more annoying is when you know they have been giving info around preorder time, and they play stupid.
If Xoom will be available for pre-order this weekend, I would think they would have announced something by now. What do you guys think?
keitht said:
If Xoom will be available for pre-order this weekend, I would think they would have announced something by now. What do you guys think?
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nah they dont announce pre-orders until they are ready for situations that just happened. if they would have announced that pre-order for the 17th and didnt have them ready, then people would have been raging all over the place just like how they did with the thunderbolt.
socomdark said:
nah they dont announce pre-orders until they are ready for situations that just happened. if they would have announced that pre-order for the 17th and didnt have them ready, then people would have been raging all over the place just like how they did with the thunderbolt.
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Click to collapse
Well I registered for updates on motorola/xoom site and I am supposed to be the first to know when it is available! I guess we continue to wait.
I stopped by BB today. All the reps said presale starts tomorrow and device in stores on 24th (though they didn't know much, including price, I informed them haha - but recent emails stated these dates). Asked them if they matched price, incase Costco is $100 cheaper, said it depends. I would think they'd match competition though...
Also, I don't recall the Atrix presale being announced officially until the day of - I'd imagine the Xoom being done the same way.
On another post, about wirefly, someone said something about Verizon starting Xoom sales on the 23, anyone else hear this?
keitht said:
Well I registered for updates on motorola/xoom site and I am supposed to be the first to know when it is available! I guess we continue to wait.
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Click to collapse
Yea i registered too but haven't received a single update..not a one lol...so much for that..they probaly will email you a week from now lol
Slimgym20 said:
Asked them if they matched price, incase Costco is $100 cheaper, said it depends. I would think they'd match competition though...
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Click to collapse
Everyone that has come into COSTCO talking about can i get a printout of this price so someone will match it, comes back saying they didn't match it. Most business will say price match except so and so and so...one being warehouse clubs.
I called 3 BB's tonight: two of them told me they are doing pre-orders tomorrow, and the other one (the closest one to me) said they are not doing a pre-order at all.
I remember specifically on Engadget and now when Google numerous sites say June 16th. But yet now I'm hearing the 17th ? Which is pretty bananas as I took off Thursday working a double Friday.
I've always heard it was the 17th, on Friday.
Here is the press release from samsung.com.
http://www.samsung.com/us/news/newsRead.do?news_seq=19862&page=1&gltype=localnews
"Premium Android Honeycomb Tablet with Ultra-slim, Lightweight Design and Brilliant 10-inch Touchscreen Available Exclusively at Best Buy Union Square Store in New York City Starting June 8; Available Nationwide Starting June 17"
Though maybe you could get lucky and find a retailer that starts selling early?
PS. Maybe online retailers will start shipping on the 16th so that it could arrive at customers homes by the 17th?
jamaicansolja said:
I remember specifically on Engadget and now when Google numerous sites say June 16th. But yet now I'm hearing the 17th ? Which is pretty gay as I took off Thursday working a double Friday.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Where did you see/hear 16th?
Idk I'm not retarded I feel that way. But if you even Google Samsung 10.1 June 16th many sites say its the release date. Honestly I have been tabletless for over a month waiting if retailers sell out Friday while I work a double I'm gonna have to get a f***king Xoom
UKseagull said:
Where did you see/hear 16th?
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oN Engadget the day it was released in NYC on the eighth. Its hard to find exact URL I'm using my cell
No worries, I hadn't heard anything about the 16th until you mentioned it. The sooner the better, depending on price though.
no it's been the 17th. i just hope that samsung doesn't pull another fast one and make it a release for New Jersey only now, and push the "official" release again another week
radiohead14 said:
no it's been the 17th. i just hope that samsung doesn't pull another fast one and make it a release for New Jersey only now, and push the "official" release again another week
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
(With Extreme Sarcasm) What on earth would make you think a company would ever try to do something like that??
I mean gosh that would be like telling everybody the update for your phone you made is coming soon then releasing it six months later.
Or like vague references to Dual Application Processor and then start using the actual brand name a few days before launch.
Or like telling everyone your tablet you make is launching on a specific date only to launch in one store that date and pushing back the full launch one week
Or like telling everyone that folks in your one store launch can only have one specific model after they lined up after hearing about your one store launch two-step move.....
Or like showing an MicroSD card slot on your tablet at every conference and uTube video only to launch without one and require a non existant cellular radio version purchase to *possibly* have a MicroSD card slot.
(And I preordered a Galaxy Tab. I guess Samsung is to me what a abusive white trash husband is to his spouse. Beat me as you may, I will always come back....)
MrSewerPickle said:
(With Extreme Sarcasm) blah blah blah
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Meh. The only **** move Sammy pulled was not disclosing that the NY pre-sale was limited to the white 16GB model. None of the other stuff is unusual, let alone worthy of whining.
Can we expect the device to be instore on 17th ?
jamaicansolja said:
Idk I'm not retarded I feel that way. But if you even Google Samsung 10.1 June 16th many sites say its the release date. Honestly I have been tabletless for over a month waiting if retailers sell out Friday while I work a double I'm gonna have to get a f***king Xoom
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Click to collapse
I advise you not to resort to such drastic measures. I owned a xoom. Trust me breddren, you don't want to do that.
Berner said:
Meh. The only **** move Sammy pulled was not disclosing that the NY pre-sale was limited to the white 16GB model. None of the other stuff is unusual, let alone worthy of whining.
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Click to collapse
Ah so not funny to you at all, got it.......
Has anyone heard of other b&m's other than bb that will have it on the 17th?
RickyMaxX said:
I advise you not to resort to such drastic measures. I owned a xoom. Trust me breddren, you don't want to do that.
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Click to collapse
huh ? I've owned 2 Xooms. The Xoom is an incredible device. Beats this in almost all specs minus form factor and weight. I'm buying this solely on its size.
jamaicansolja said:
huh ? I've owned 2 Xooms. The Xoom is an incredible device. Beats this in almost all specs minus form factor and weight. I'm buying this solely on its size.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The screen is a big ball player as well...and the Xoom is definately lacking in that position.
Continue with your life.. relax its almost weekend and fathers day is coming
The Xoom-VA-Panel is not bad... its good, but it doesnt kill!!!