Database Users

Newbie question regrading storage cards

I'm new to WM5 having previously had a Blue Angel running 2003SE; so far I like my new toy by am wondering about the pros and cons regrading where to install applications Storage Card versus Main Memory. Obviously, installing on Storage card keeps memory free - this is a good thing, but will applications run slower from storage card?
What expereinace can you share regarding thsi?
Thanks
Chris

In WM2003, internal storage ROM is only used to store a backup of the OS and vendor extensions, and is only read during hard resets. Volatile RAM is used to store the OS, files, and applications during regular use (unless they are installed on the SD card), and so their storage must compete with the RAM needed for running programs.
WM5 changes everything -- with WM5, the OS, applications and files always get stored in a nonvolatile storage, be it internal or external, and this is separate from the RAM. Thus battery loss does not cause you to lose installed applications or files. RAM is totally available for running programs, and is not used to store files which are rarely used. There is no more competition for RAM between stored files and running programs.
The WM5 OS and applications running in the background will always use a certain amount of the 64 MB of RAM. You can free it up by removing unnecessary applications. You can also free up the non-volatile storage space by removing vendor extensions and cleaning up temporary files. See this thread, and search for "0506" in re: O2 XDA Exec ROM.
As I have not received my XDA Exec yet, I cannot comment on the speed differences between using internal storage and SD storage. Obviously both are slower than running programs stored in RAM, and depend on the speed on the storage card. But the difference between installing on a SD card and installing in the "default location" is less in WM5 than in WM2003. Installing in the default location won't reduce your available RAM, for example.
I'm sure others have opinions on how best to optimize memory.

thanks for the answer. I posed the question because I pretty much ran out of memory on my device. I have installed in Corporate mode, so don't have O2 active etc. I have just done a hard reset & will now install everything on my storage card just to see what happens

I have had a few WM5 devices. Basically install everything on a removable card. Only install on the internal storage utilities that you are likely to keep around and restrict this to a minimum and small things, like vbar, TRE, etc.
The disadvantage of course is that if you swap SD cards then you can't run applications until you put back in the card installed. I never have this problem as I have only 1gb card permanently in the system. I will shortly be upgrading to a 4gb card (as they are not around £100) which means this is less of a problem. Although note that in the current version of the xda exec's software the camera refuses to write to a 4gb card unless at least 2gb is full.
rgds

I too have a 1Gb card with a 4Gb on order. I'm not very bothered about the camera, but I have read about the 2Gb problem. Hopefully someone will fix this little bug, but until then I can save photos to main memory and then move them about

As a guide I install everything to a SD Card unless it's a today screen plugin or sync's in some way...

that's excatly my thought too - only things which have a today plugin go on the main memory; everything else to SD card - seems to work fine

Question regarding the Internal memory of O2 XDA Exec

Hi all,
Could anyone please tell me the differences between the storage memory and the program memory? Yeah, I know this might sounds stupid and I also wish that the answer is really that straight forward.
I always thought that 'Program Memory' is suppose the memory quota for us to install application & softwares. Where, storage memory is just simply the portion of memory where we stores data that we creates.
But whenever I install applications, 'storage' is the memory which always to be used up. Yet, I can hardly use up my 'program' portion of memory...
Can anyone tell me why? and how to install applications in the program memory instead of storage memory?
Thank you very much.
Cheers!

Search would have helped a great deal here, FAQ.
Storage is Flash
Programs is RAM
WM5 works the same way as a desktop. It loads the OS from disk to RAM when you power it on. When you remove the battery everything is safely stored to disc, not RAM as WM2003 was. Battery can go flat, no backup battery needed.

PReDiToR said:
Search would have helped a great deal here, FAQ.
Storage is Flash
Programs is RAM
WM5 works the same way as a desktop. It loads the OS from disk to RAM when you power it on. When you remove the battery everything is safely stored to disc, not RAM as WM2003 was. Battery can go flat, no backup battery needed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
..... so how do you save stuff to Program memory? Or is that just temp momory that stuff runs from when you execute it?

You can`t save stuff to program memory.The program memory is like the RAM in your PC,just used for temporary storage and running programs.The storage memory is like the hard drive in your PC,used for actually `storing` data.

liverman666 said:
You can`t save stuff to program memory.The program memory is like the RAM in your PC,just used for temporary storage and running programs.The storage memory is like the hard drive in your PC,used for actually `storing` data.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So why do they bother displaying it on the memory settings?
And does that mean it's different to how it was on the XDA2? That used to have a slider allowing you to change the allocation for storage/program memory.

RE
I find storage memory is the one you need to watch out. As you install more programs whether to SD card or to Program memory the storage memory goes down
Too low storage memory and your system will not perform properly. Install programs with large file size first then follow by programs with smaller file size otherwise you'll encounter installation 'Not enough memory' if you do it the other way round

Should/can I move apps to storage card?

Hi
I have installed a few programs on my TD2 - all to device rather than storage card - and am getting a little concerned that performance may be suffering. With my prevous device I used SK Tools to move apps to the card - but I'm not 100% clear whether this is good practice.
With nothing running, Settings reports 223.10 MB free for storage (75.29 in use) and 75.87 MD free for programs (108 in use). I have installed things like Sprite Backup and Terminator, ActivePrint, SPB FreeCell, MyLife Organized PocketPC Edition, Resco Sudoku Touch and Gaz TD2 Tools.
Really grateful for any advice.
Thanks

I don't see why installing programs to the device memory should cause performance to suffer? It's only available RAM memory which affects performance, and this remains the same whether you instal to the device or to the card. It's when you open, and leave open, several programs at once that performance suffers.
The nice thing about modern phones is the amount of internal storage, which is plenty for masses of programs. The only performance issue you may have is when downloading large files with Internet Explorer, as I think it uses internal storage as temporary space for the file being downloaded, even if you tell it to save to the memory card. I don't think Opera does this though.
Installing programs to the card means you can't "hot-swap" it unless you're absolutely sure all the programs are closed.

In addition to the above internal phone mem is faster than mem card so performance takes a hit if you use the card.
And you run the risk of more freezes and resets being needed.
It is my firm belief that the use of internal mem avoids a lot of hassles all round by making the phone more stable.
And I almost forgot that internal mem uses less battery power than mem cards.

Easy answer...
Use removable storage for data, on-board storage for apps.
If you have too many apps for on-board storage, consider a slimmer ROM for your phone. Remember on-board storage also works as RAM for your apps, so the more you have available, the more apps you can run.

DeathJester said:
Use removable storage for data, on-board storage for apps.
If you have too many apps for on-board storage, consider a slimmer ROM for your phone. Remember on-board storage also works as RAM for your apps, so the more you have available, the more apps you can run.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd check on that last statement if I were you!
The Topaz has 3 memory areas.
One for flashed ROM.
One for operating RAM.
AND one for storage.
It makes no difference how much you put in storage RAM.
It does make a difference how many apps are running at any one time in operating RAM.
A slimmer ROM image won't make much difference either.
How much of that ROM image is unnecessarily floating around in operating RAM at any one time will make a difference.
Go to settings/system/device information/hardware inforamation
I currently show
RAM size
288 MB
Flash memory size
512 MB
Storage size
342.47 MB
That's a lot of free storage available onboard that is just waiting to be used.
If you go into settings/system/memory you will find storage and program memory values displayed.
Install an app and the in use value of storage memory goes up.
Run an app and the in use value of program memory goes up.
Showing that they are two quite separate physical areas running "independantly" of each other.

Thanks!
Thanks for the helpful responses - much appreciated.
Andrew

werdna72 said:
Thanks for the helpful responses - much appreciated.
Andrew
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your welcome to any help we can give.

resizing Program memory to increase Storage memory

After installing many apps in main phone memory, the Storage memory (left side on settings > memory) shrinks to less than 40MB, while plenty (and unused) Program memory is there (195MB) (right side)
Is there a way to resize these 2 main phone memories to increase efficiency?
Thanks
Saulo

I remember that in previous version on WM there was a slider to move memory from one side to another.
But this was lost here in WM 6.5.5...

are there commercial or free applications capable to do the job? Ramdisk?
It mus be working on wm 6.5.5
Thanks and waiting

what you are remembering is a time when the memory used was totally different type to what we have now.
so no is the answer, there's no way of doing it.
Uninstall some of your apps, and reinstall them to storage card, that will free up some memory, as will clearing the caches in PIE and Opera (as well as moving the cache to the storage card for opera).

Thanks Fards
Sorry to hear that...but are you aware what ihibit, prevents the memory from being resizable?
Thanks
Saulo

saulo866 said:
Thanks Fards
Sorry to hear that...but are you aware what ihibit, prevents the memory from being resizable?
Thanks
Saulo
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
program and system memory used to be the same memory, and you could decide how much of it was for program and how much for system. When the phone ran out of battery, it would cause a hard reset, and all your data would be lost.
Now we have a phone with two different types of memory. If your battery dies you do NOT lose your data, because the system memory is flash memory, whilst the program memory is true RAM that is cleared when you restart.
Think of your PC, you have a hard disk, and RAM, and you cannot resize the hard disk to use RAM as more hard disk space.

Yes. That's true but the main reason was that the whole thing was like RAM at these times... and we were losing everything when the battery was running out of power.
Some PDA's like HP for instance was delivered with backup batteries to prevent such complete loss and give extra time.
As from WM5.0 if my memory is good, the resident memory came up at last, to make things better.
Today, we have storage RAM which acts exactly like the hard disk of a PC and the program memory which acts exactly like the RAM of our PCs. The physical difference is the main reason that you can not slide anything between storage and RAM.
The suggestion for installing apps on SDcard can save you a big amount of storage RAM indeed. But do not forget the impact on speed: apps will load (and exit) slower on SD card. Try and see.
saulo866 said:
I remember that in previous version on WM there was a slider to move memory from one side to another.
But this was lost here in WM 6.5.5...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Yes G3K
I am loading on SD card ONLY those programs which I use rarely and in which speed is not an issue. But the more speed-demanding applications I prefer to locate on RAM, since much faster...
Thanks for your insights
Saulo

phone in low internal memory

OK guys..pardon my stupidity..i have read up on similar thread with similar situation but the thing is i do not know what is the best way to do it..i install the cleartemp but it's not working...i deleted my IE/Opera cache but i am still running on low memory..i wonder what is the best and simplest way to do it?other then hard reset thou...this phone is new to me and it's running on low memory already..my apps are install in my SD so i guess that wasn't an issue..SO! how do i free my phone memory?basically i use my phone to surf net..using IE..other then that would be youtube..need help!

yohliying said:
OK guys..pardon my stupidity..i have read up on similar thread with similar situation but the thing is i do not know what is the best way to do it..i install the cleartemp but it's not working...i deleted my IE/Opera cache but i am still running on low memory..i wonder what is the best and simplest way to do it?other then hard reset thou...this phone is new to me and it's running on low memory already..my apps are install in my SD so i guess that wasn't an issue..SO! how do i free my phone memory?basically i use my phone to surf net..using IE..other then that would be youtube..need help!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
how 'low' is 'low memory'?

rp-x1 said:
how 'low' is 'low memory'?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And which memory because you are talking about installing apps when that has nothing directly to do with operating memory.
Installing on mem card doesn't "save" anything in this regard.

I'm also low on Storage-mem on the phone - even though I install programs on the memorycard whenever possible (and of course put my pictures, music and videos on the mem-card as well!).
I have 177mb free Program-memory on the phone but only 9.3mb storage-mem.
This makes programs such as the YouTube-app very unhappy as it seems to only be able to cache to internal storage-memory :-(
On older versions of WM you could change how the phone used it's internal memory with a slider in settings.
The phone also seemed to adjust this automatically as it became necessary.
Now however it seems that this possibility is gone (both manual and automatic adjustment).
I hope it is only my ignorance speaking so here's hoping that someone has a solution to this problem (fingers crossed)

trondkk said:
I'm also low on Storage-mem on the phone - even though I install programs on the memorycard whenever possible (and of course put my pictures, music and videos on the mem-card as well!).
I have 177mb free Program-memory on the phone but only 9.3mb storage-mem.
This makes programs such as the YouTube-app very unhappy as it seems to only be able to cache to internal storage-memory :-(
On older versions of WM you could change how the phone used it's internal memory with a slider in settings.
The phone also seemed to adjust this automatically as it became necessary.
Now however it seems that this possibility is gone (both manual and automatic adjustment).
I hope it is only my ignorance speaking so here's hoping that someone has a solution to this problem (fingers crossed)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you have used up storage mem then that's it but what have you installed to use it.
Mine shows 152Mb storage and 252Mb program memory free. 27 apps installed and everything running fine.

Do you install a lot of application from the Marketplace? If so, this defaults to install on internal memory

I have exactly the same issue, and it's very frustrating. Pretty crazy really as I can't use the phone for anything that uses device storage. No youtube, no media busy web pages and some apps refuse to run smoothly, or at all.
Like you, I'm always having to delete Opera & IE's cache files just to keep the phone functioning! I've also deleted all my Co-Pilot files on the card and the device - this helped a little and gave me another 5 or 6 MB of device space.
With all cache's cleared and around 30 programs installed (all on the card) I now only have 7.8MB of free device storage, which disappears within a few minutes when using Opera.
Out of the 336MB of program storage I have filled 153MB with 182MB free - I wish I could control how much memory is allocated to the program memory and device memory.

Very strange...I have any large applications like games, copliot etc installed on my SD card, only small apps on my internal memory...
Total storage: 200.15MB
Used storage: 119.99MB
Free storage: 80.16MB
Total program: 336.93MB
Used program: 170.54MB
Free profram: 166.89MB

i have a 16 meg Ram Disk (see the 'ram disk' thread ) and my system temp folders and caches, plus opera cache have been moved to it. Opera now runs really fast, and the cache is no longer taking up the storage memory, plus when you soft reset it clears out the cache too.

chronicle said:
I have exactly the same issue, and it's very frustrating. Pretty crazy really as I can't use the phone for anything that uses device storage. No youtube, no media busy web pages and some apps refuse to run smoothly, or at all.
Like you, I'm always having to delete Opera & IE's cache files just to keep the phone functioning! I've also deleted all my Co-Pilot files on the card and the device - this helped a little and gave me another 5 or 6 MB of device space.
With all cache's cleared and around 30 programs installed (all on the card) I now only have 7.8MB of free device storage, which disappears within a few minutes when using Opera.
Out of the 336MB of program storage I have filled 153MB with 182MB free - I wish I could control how much memory is allocated to the program memory and device memory.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
.
Wow thats so confusing!
Just tell us
Storage memory (where the apps are installed)
Program memory (where the apps and OS run)
You should have plenty of mem to install ail your apps and run them without a problem.
Try installing them all to phone because you have enough mem

pa49 said:
.
Wow thats so confusing!
Just tell us
Storage memory (where the apps are installed)
Program memory (where the apps and OS run)
You should have plenty of mem to install ail your apps and run them without a problem.
Try installing them all to phone because you have enough mem
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have since day 1 installed all my programs to the memory card apart from a couple of programs and hotfixes which I though would be smarter if I installed to the device - but these are tiny. I have also set my marketplace to default to the memory card and removed all co-pilot files and set all podcasts to the microSD too.
Total Storage: 200.27
Used Storage: 191.48
Free Storage: 8.79 (whohooo, that's much bigger than normal!)
Total Program: 336.93
Used Program: 143.89
Free Program: 192.93
SD Card: Over 2GB's free
I really have no idea what's using all my internal storage.

Yep - that's about the same for me.
Only a few apps are installed directly on the phone (the ones that install without letting the user decide where they want them) so what's hogging my phone-storage is beyond me...
But I really don't need close to 200 mb of program-memory, is there really no way to use some of this memory for storage - as was possible with earlier versions of WM?

Have you tried importing to PC, such as pictures and other things, using Windows Mobile Centre?

chronicle said:
I have since day 1 installed all my programs to the memory card apart from a couple of programs and hotfixes which I though would be smarter if I installed to the device - but these are tiny. I have also set my marketplace to default to the memory card and removed all co-pilot files and set all podcasts to the microSD too.
Total Storage: 200.27
Used Storage: 191.48
Free Storage: 8.79 (whohooo, that's much bigger than normal!)
Total Program: 336.93
Used Program: 143.89
Free Program: 192.93
SD Card: Over 2GB's free
I really have no idea what's using all my internal storage.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes but why? Storage mem is there for, well, storage. So why not use it?

pa49 said:
Yes but why? Storage mem is there for, well, storage. So why not use it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can't help but think that you've missed the point - when the storage memory is full the phone ceases to function properly!
It uses this area of storage for the cache files for the browser and for applications such as you tube. When I start the youtube app, if it opens at all, it will say 'Critically low on system memory...etc' and shut down after playing a few seconds. If I have many tabs open in opera the same memory problem occurs.
The 'Device Storage' partition is full (with what I don't know) whilst the 'Device Program' partition is almost empty. We have no control over what sizes those partitions are. Maybe i've got it all wrong but either way it's really limiting the usefulness of the phone.

trondkk said:
But I really don't need close to 200 mb of program-memory, is there really no way to use some of this memory for storage - as was possible with earlier versions of WM?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes there is. as I mentioned in post 9, I use a ram disk for my temp files and cache. lives in program memory but shows up as a (fast) memory card.
search for the ram disk thread.
also, as regards figuring out what is taking up all the space, use a file manager (don't forget to unhide all files) and search for everything over....say....1 meg.

chronicle said:
I can't help but think that you've missed the point - when the storage memory is full the phone ceases to function properly!
It uses this area of storage for the cache files for the browser and for applications such as you tube. When I start the youtube app, if it opens at all, it will say 'Critically low on system memory...etc' and shut down after playing a few seconds. If I have many tabs open in opera the same memory problem occurs.
The 'Device Storage' partition is full (with what I don't know) whilst the 'Device Program' partition is almost empty. We have no control over what sizes those partitions are. Maybe i've got it all wrong but either way it's really limiting the usefulness of the phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No I haven't missed the point, I just don't get the problem and I'm trying to figure out why not?
And that would help you. Something is causing certain phones to behave this way. I use youtube and opera and never have to clear out anything.
I currently have 36 apps showing on my start menu screen and memory is showing as Storage 152.13 Mb free and program 313.80 Mb free.
I run Titanium (not manilla UI) and I have LeoLite ROM installed.
Something in that setup is causing the phone to respond differently!

Duplicate post

u can do these things
1. instal darkcab catcher----on this website...moves all the programs to external storage
2. moves ur htc album cache and opera cache to external storage

hash1234 said:
u can do these things
1. instal darkcab catcher----on this website...moves all the programs to external storage
2. moves ur htc album cache and opera cache to external storage
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I might be a little bit stupid, but on what website can I find darkcab catcher?