Database Users

Memory Management... Please explain

I just purchased a 1GB miniSD card, and I just want to make sure that i am using it the best I can. I have a CINGULA 8125.
What I am trying to get a goo understanding on is Memory/Storage on this device. As a result I have a few questions I am hoping someone can answer me:
1. What is the difference between Storage Memory and Application Memeory
2. Additional storage (like the 1GB miniSD card I just got) does it go towards the Storage or Application Memory.... or both?
3. As any device, I am assuming there is a limit on how many applications can be ran at the same time (is that what the Application Memory is?) - but I am wondering if adding additional miniSD storage will indeed allow me to install more and more applications, and not just use the space for document storage
4. Is there a way to select where to install an application, as in in the built in storage/memory vs the miniSD storage?
5. Is it true that adding miniSD storage improves the overall performance a tiny little bit?
6. Are there any other tips/trick I should know of regarding Memory/Storage Management in relation to miniSD storage or otherwise?
Thank you very very much..

>1. What is the difference between Storage Memory and Application Memory
Application memory is the equivelant of "RAM" on a computer. Storage memory on WM5 is the equivelant of a hard drive on a computer.
> 2. Additional storage (like the 1GB miniSD card I just got) does it go towards the Storage or Application Memory.... or both?
This is equivelant to a floppy disk or a re-writable CD/DVD. It is more close technically to the Storage memory.
>3. As any device, I am assuming there is a limit on how many applications can be ran at the same time (is that what the Application Memory is?)
Yes, this is reffering to the RAM. On the PocketPCs you can run up to 32 applications at the same time. But you can have thousands installed, just not run at the same time.
>but I am wondering if adding additional miniSD storage will indeed allow me to install more and more applications, and not just use the space for document storage
Yes, that's what it's for. To install more apps and files. But this doesn't mean that you will be able to run more than 32 apps at the same time, because that falls under the RAM/Application memory thing, and not storage/SD.
>4. Is there a way to select where to install an application, as in in the built in storage/memory vs the miniSD storage?
Yes, the .CAB files ask you where to install them.
>5. Is it true that adding miniSD storage improves the overall performance a tiny little bit?
No. When you add a floppy disk or a CD burner on your PC it doesn't make your PC faster. In fact, running apps from the SD it will be equally fast to run them, but a bit slower to load them into RAM.
>6. Are there any other tips/trick I should know of regarding Memory/Storage Management in relation to miniSD storage or otherwise?
Make sure you always have at least 10 MBs of free Application memory and at least 2 MB free of Storage memory (Windows will need some free space to write temp files you see).
I would also recommend to install the freeware utility vBar which allows you to close applications instead of minimize them when you click the "ok" or the "x" button. This way, you can free up RAM each time you don't need an application to be open.

Eugenia, awesome job clearing that up. You should be a teacher.
By the way
I recommend magic button to vbar.
I've tried many times to explain WM5 memory to people but this is the clearest ever.

Memory question!!

So, I saved all this memory. But the Wizard still allocates memory 50/50 for storage and programs. I open more and more programs, working down towards 0 for program memory and the storage memory still stands at 30MB.
:?: I'm cornfused.

Microsoft changed this behavior at some point, and I'm not sure I understand why (maybe to stop support calls from people who changed the defaults?)
I'm hoping that there's a registry hack to enable changing the ratios. MemMaid shows a slider for it, but it snaps back to 50/50 instantly.

Pre- Windows Mobile 5 devices used volatile RAM for program memory *and* for storage memory. Consequently, a loss of power (e.g. totally drained battery) would cause anything the user installed or stored in the storage memory to be lost.
The memory in WM5 devices is different to in pre-WM5 devices.
WM5 devices use "Persistant Memory Storage".
Program memory is volatile RAM, like in a PC. If power is lost, the contents of the RAM are lost.
Storage memory is non-volatile flash ROM. If power is lost, no data is lost.

I use this reg tweak to stop windows from moving the slider. I now leave the slider at 3 mb on the storage side. Hope this helps!! LuXx
Never defragment Memory
This tweak will make sure your memory will never be fragmented, for optimal memory use.
HKCU\SOFTWARE\MICROSOFT\SHELL
Create an empty key with the name "NeverDorkMemory"

Note that the "NeverDorkMemory" key has no effect on WM5:
http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/for...iew=next&sid=d2056f3326ea430b21236fd42702f402
For more info on memory on WM5, have a look here:
http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archive/2006/03/16/552996.aspx

So trying to synthesize all of this...
So... if I understand this correctly... with WM5:
1. There are several kinds of internal memory:
*Flash (persistent) memory, which in the control panel is called "Storage Memory." This includes installed programs and databases.
*ROM where the OS is for the most part (other than external patches) stored.
*RAM (volatile) memory, which in the control panel is called "Program Memory." Programs and data from Storage and ROM are loaded into RAM to actually run. This is why even a freshly reset device has a good hunk of RAM used to accommodate the OS.
2. RAM is NOT interchangeable with persistent storage, which is why the slider won't move in the control panel. Tweaking the registry will produce a superficial change of allowing the slider to move. But that has no actual effect on how memory is allocated.
3. This implies that saving "Storage Memory" by (a) UPX, (b) installing to a storage card, (c) or any other means available, will do absolutely nothing to improve "Program Memory".
4. The storage card is another kind of memory, "Removable flash (persistent) memory." Since this is in fact even slower read/write than the internal flash memory, there is in fact a net loss in installing to it. Unless you have a ton of data and app's, 40 MB on my Wizard, there is no reason to do that.
QUESTIONS:
1. Are the conclusions above correct? Is it best to just go ahead and install to the internal storage?
2. Are the caches stored in internal Storage, meaning that the old trick of moving the caches to the external Storage is no help? (Again, unless you have loads of data and app's)
3. Where does \Extended_ROM\ fit into all of this?
* Is this just another bank of persistent flash memory that has special protection (surviving hard reset)? Or is it somehow different?
* Does the amount of storage given to the extended ROM simply subtract out of the Storage memory? Or how does this work?
* Can you somehow adjust the memory allocation for the ext ROM?
* Is there any benefit of copying or locating certain files into ext ROM, other than CABs available for reinstall after a hard reset?
4. Is the ROM in fact a fixed storage bank independent of the others? Or can this be recovered to Storage memory?
WM2003's memory was, in contrast, quite simple to understand. I am still struggling to figure out how to best make use of the available memory in WM5, although I really love the benefits of persistent storage (which go way beyond the "iPaq File Store" included on the 6315 which wasn't of tremendous use.)
THANKS for any insights.

Someone really smart...
Can some really smart person give me some insights on this?
wgary said:
So... if I understand this correctly... with WM5:
1. There are several kinds of internal memory:
*Flash (persistent) memory, which in the control panel is called "Storage Memory." This includes installed programs and databases.
*ROM where the OS is for the most part (other than external patches) stored.
*RAM (volatile) memory, which in the control panel is called "Program Memory." Programs and data from Storage and ROM are loaded into RAM to actually run. This is why even a freshly reset device has a good hunk of RAM used to accommodate the OS.
2. RAM is NOT interchangeable with persistent storage, which is why the slider won't move in the control panel. Tweaking the registry will produce a superficial change of allowing the slider to move. But that has no actual effect on how memory is allocated.
3. This implies that saving "Storage Memory" by (a) UPX, (b) installing to a storage card, (c) or any other means available, will do absolutely nothing to improve "Program Memory".
4. The storage card is another kind of memory, "Removable flash (persistent) memory." Since this is in fact even slower read/write than the internal flash memory, there is in fact a net loss in installing to it. Unless you have a ton of data and app's, 40 MB on my Wizard, there is no reason to do that.
QUESTIONS:
1. Are the conclusions above correct? Is it best to just go ahead and install to the internal storage?
2. Are the caches stored in internal Storage, meaning that the old trick of moving the caches to the external Storage is no help? (Again, unless you have loads of data and app's)
3. Where does \Extended_ROM\ fit into all of this?
* Is this just another bank of persistent flash memory that has special protection (surviving hard reset)? Or is it somehow different?
* Does the amount of storage given to the extended ROM simply subtract out of the Storage memory? Or how does this work?
* Can you somehow adjust the memory allocation for the ext ROM?
* Is there any benefit of copying or locating certain files into ext ROM, other than CABs available for reinstall after a hard reset?
4. Is the ROM in fact a fixed storage bank independent of the others? Or can this be recovered to Storage memory?
WM2003's memory was, in contrast, quite simple to understand. I am still struggling to figure out how to best make use of the available memory in WM5, although I really love the benefits of persistent storage (which go way beyond the "iPaq File Store" included on the 6315 which wasn't of tremendous use.)
THANKS for any insights.
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`

Re: So trying to synthesize all of this...
wgary said:
*Flash (persistent) memory, which in the control panel is called "Storage Memory." This includes installed programs and databases.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Correct
wgary said:
*ROM where the OS is for the most part (other than external patches) stored.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is really the same section as the persistent memory - the difference is that this section is reserved and cannot be written to... it is truely read-only, unless you cook your own ROM and install that using a ROM installer (much like the AKU2 ROM update installer).
wgary said:
*RAM (volatile) memory, which in the control panel is called "Program Memory." Programs and data from Storage and ROM are loaded into RAM to actually run. This is why even a freshly reset device has a good hunk of RAM used to accommodate the OS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nearly true. Only the bits that need to be in RAM get loaded into RAM - this does, obviously, include parts of the O/S, a good chunk of the Pocket Outlook services, the phone, and the majority of all drivers.
wgary said:
2. RAM is NOT interchangeable with persistent storage, which is why the slider won't move in the control panel. Tweaking the registry will produce a superficial change of allowing the slider to move. But that has no actual effect on how memory is allocated.
wgary said:
wgary said:
3. This implies that saving "Storage Memory" by (a) UPX, (b) installing to a storage card, (c) or any other means available, will do absolutely nothing to improve "Program Memory".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Correct.
wgary said:
4. The storage card is another kind of memory, "Removable flash (persistent) memory." Since this is in fact even slower read/write than the internal flash memory, there is in fact a net loss in installing to it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This really depends. If you have an application that does not make use of heavy I/O but is a fairly large install, you could very well install it on the MiniSD card to save storage on the main device. Keep in mind that the main device storage memory is fairly low (really stupid slow, imho) and that it's best reserved for those applications that, due to programmer error, fail to work when installed on the MiniSD card.
wgary said:
Unless you have a ton of data and app's, 40 MB on my Wizard, there is no reason to do that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you find you have enough space available on the main storage - then no, no point in installing to the MiniSD card.
wgary said:
1. Are the conclusions above correct? Is it best to just go ahead and install to the internal storage?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See above.
wgary said:
2. Are the caches stored in internal Storage, meaning that the old trick of moving the caches to the external Storage is no help? (Again, unless you have loads of data and app's)
wgary said:
on which caches you are referring to. There's a tweak to put the browser cache on the MiniSD card, which I think is a fine thing to do. I don't think there's any way to move the Messaging database file to the MiniSD card, though.
wgary said:
3. Where does \Extended_ROM\ fit into all of this?
* Is this just another bank of persistent flash memory that has special protection (surviving hard reset)?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's the same persistent flash memory, just allocated to be the ROM part. It's not really ROM, as it can be reflashed using another ROM. The interchangeable use of "ROM" is really a bit confusing - think of the ROMs (both O/S as in AKU2 and Extended Rom) as being the Firmware instead.
wgary said:
* Does the amount of storage given to the extended ROM simply subtract out of the Storage memory?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It depends on the ROM/Extended ROM you're working with. Overall, it's a fixed portion - I don't recall the exact number. Depending on the ROM - e.g. Orange vs T-Mobile vs Qtek, there may be a bit of free space left that they didn't fill. Or, otherwise, the Extended ROM may contain applications that you have no use for, and you oculd remove those from the Extended ROM before reflashing. But just having this empty space or removing these applications you won't use won't free up any space for your own applications/files/etc.
What some people do, however, is to place their application(s) of choice in the Extended ROM instead. So, for example, say you don't want the anti-virus thing in the iMate ROM, but you're a regular user of Total Commander. You could replace the anti-virus thing with Total Commander in the Extended ROM (theoretically - no idea if it would fit.. just an example), and in that way 'save' space for other applications/files by not having to install Total Commander in the regular storage space.
wgary said:
* Can you somehow adjust the memory allocation for the ext ROM?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think there's an easy way, no...
wgary said:
* Is there any benefit of copying or locating certain files into ext ROM, other than CABs available for reinstall after a hard reset?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See above... you wouldn't really place the CABs in there (if you just want them easily available for re-installation after a hard reset, place them on your MiniSD card instead), but the full programs.
wgary said:
4. Is the ROM in fact a fixed storage bank independent of the others?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's independent of the RAM bank, but otherwise the same for the regular storage.
wgary said:
Or can this be recovered to Storage memory?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not with any manner of easy a la a slider.
I think that overall, all of the above questions really just stem from one thing: we need more RAM and more storage space on these devices. I don't know why we're still limited to 64MB/128MB (half of which is the ROM/ExtROM) when memory is, quite frankly, cheap. I understand that with the MiniSD Card you can easily expand the storage space - but unfortunately there are tons of programmers out there who apparently code in such a way that their programs fail to run, or simply become buggy, when placed there. Some of this may be WM5's fault*, but I fail to see how for the majority of applications.
( * e.g. the SD card driver being loaded too late, so that any StartUp program relying on files on the SD card fails. This is really an issue of MS/OEMs wanting to make the device look faster to boot by presenting the OS before all drivers are done loading. )
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Hi,
this is my first post on this forum so probably it will be a little newb style but what the heck, I can't find the answer to my question so I will dig this topic out
ZeBoxx said:
wgary said:
4. The storage card is another kind of memory, "Removable flash (persistent) memory." Since this is in fact even slower read/write than the internal flash memory, there is in fact a net loss in installing to it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This really depends. If you have an application that does not make use of heavy I/O but is a fairly large install, you could very well install it on the MiniSD card to save storage on the main device. Keep in mind that the main device storage memory is fairly low (really stupid slow, imho) and that it's best reserved for those applications that, due to programmer error, fail to work when installed on the MiniSD card.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1) I believe it still remains true? I mean I'm using HTC Tytn and microSD ultra II card and still the internal flash memory is faster than the removable flash right? So until I got some space left on the internal memory for better performance I should install apps right there? Are there some recommendations to not fullfil this memory (ie. always leave 10% space on it)?
2) What about battery drain? Are there any significant differences in that aspect between those 2 memories?

Memory usage

Hello,
Can someone elaborate on what is meant by Storage memory and Program memory?
I would expect storage to be My Docs and Programs to be Windows and so on. I ask since my Storage allocation is two thirds full and all my docs on the device is empty. I use the SD card for that.
Cheers.

rphillip said:
Hello,
Can someone elaborate on what is meant by Storage memory and Program memory?
I would expect storage to be My Docs and Programs to be Windows and so on. I ask since my Storage allocation is two thirds full and all my docs on the device is empty. I use the SD card for that.
Cheers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
-Storage memory is memory used for saving files on you're phone, extention is you're memory card (micro SD).
-Program memory, is like the RAM-memory on you're PC, this is used when running programmes, watching movies-pictures...

Thanks. Well there are two storage areas. "Main" and "Storage Card". My query is for "Main". Within this there is "Storage" and "Program".
I would like to know what is used for what so I can look in a specific area and delete stuff I don't need. Like I said "Storage" seems rather full but I do not store anything on the phone itself. I use the storage card which does not present a problem.

In the storage info on the settings tab, under device it shows "storage" which is like your hard drive, and "program" which is like your RAM. Obviously, you don't actually have a hard drive. It's just an example
There's certain stuff that gets cached on the internal storage, and this can obviously bump up the space that's used (there's threads on here for cleaning/moving these things). Then there's the other culprit - Marketplace. If you've installed stuff from there, it's on internet memory, not your storage card. Also, do you install software to the device, or to the storage card? I only put essential stuff on the device, and stuff that I can live without on the storage card.
Just thoughts and suggestions.

johncmolyneux said:
In the storage info on the settings tab, under device it shows "storage" which is like your hard drive, and "program" which is like your RAM. Obviously, you don't actually have a hard drive. It's just an example
There's certain stuff that gets cached on the internal storage, and this can obviously bump up the space that's used (there's threads on here for cleaning/moving these things). Then there's the other culprit - Marketplace. If you've installed stuff from there, it's on internet memory, not your storage card. Also, do you install software to the device, or to the storage card? I only put essential stuff on the device, and stuff that I can live without on the storage card.
Just thoughts and suggestions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ah ok that explains a little then. I have been installing cabs to the device.

Do not understand; my total storage memory is 181,23MB, in use is 175,21MB, but when I check in explorer, there is only 89MB in use. What am I missing here??
Also, what does it mean program storage - total space 336,97MB?
Flash size 512MB, RAM size 448MB, what is the difference?

Its rather more complex than it ought to be, and HTC are being a little 'economical' with the truth!
It has 512MB of total storage, of which about 175MB is taken up by the ROM image. This leaves the 337MB you see reported. Of this, about 150MB is taken up by the HTC Sense system, then another chunk by the video memory leaving around 135MB free to the user. The new 'Light' custom ROMs without HTC Sense have over 300MB free to the user.
The 448MB RAM is just that- same as a PCs RAM. Even after loading the OS on startup there is ample ROM left for pretty much any eventuality!

resizing Program memory to increase Storage memory

After installing many apps in main phone memory, the Storage memory (left side on settings > memory) shrinks to less than 40MB, while plenty (and unused) Program memory is there (195MB) (right side)
Is there a way to resize these 2 main phone memories to increase efficiency?
Thanks
Saulo

I remember that in previous version on WM there was a slider to move memory from one side to another.
But this was lost here in WM 6.5.5...

are there commercial or free applications capable to do the job? Ramdisk?
It mus be working on wm 6.5.5
Thanks and waiting

what you are remembering is a time when the memory used was totally different type to what we have now.
so no is the answer, there's no way of doing it.
Uninstall some of your apps, and reinstall them to storage card, that will free up some memory, as will clearing the caches in PIE and Opera (as well as moving the cache to the storage card for opera).

Thanks Fards
Sorry to hear that...but are you aware what ihibit, prevents the memory from being resizable?
Thanks
Saulo

saulo866 said:
Thanks Fards
Sorry to hear that...but are you aware what ihibit, prevents the memory from being resizable?
Thanks
Saulo
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
program and system memory used to be the same memory, and you could decide how much of it was for program and how much for system. When the phone ran out of battery, it would cause a hard reset, and all your data would be lost.
Now we have a phone with two different types of memory. If your battery dies you do NOT lose your data, because the system memory is flash memory, whilst the program memory is true RAM that is cleared when you restart.
Think of your PC, you have a hard disk, and RAM, and you cannot resize the hard disk to use RAM as more hard disk space.

Yes. That's true but the main reason was that the whole thing was like RAM at these times... and we were losing everything when the battery was running out of power.
Some PDA's like HP for instance was delivered with backup batteries to prevent such complete loss and give extra time.
As from WM5.0 if my memory is good, the resident memory came up at last, to make things better.
Today, we have storage RAM which acts exactly like the hard disk of a PC and the program memory which acts exactly like the RAM of our PCs. The physical difference is the main reason that you can not slide anything between storage and RAM.
The suggestion for installing apps on SDcard can save you a big amount of storage RAM indeed. But do not forget the impact on speed: apps will load (and exit) slower on SD card. Try and see.
saulo866 said:
I remember that in previous version on WM there was a slider to move memory from one side to another.
But this was lost here in WM 6.5.5...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Yes G3K
I am loading on SD card ONLY those programs which I use rarely and in which speed is not an issue. But the more speed-demanding applications I prefer to locate on RAM, since much faster...
Thanks for your insights
Saulo

sd card vs mainmemory

would there be ever be a hack that can turn you memorycard into your mainmemory just likee the iphone haves built in memory.Because hate running out of memory on my windowsmobile phones and have the apps i use dont even really save to the memory card its always using the main memory

pr
how do you disable all the fullmemory notifications on windows devices

julian2596 said:
how do you disable all the fullmemory notifications on windows devices
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What apps are you talking about. most memory space goes to pics and music, which can be stored on the card. And you can install extract programs on your card instead of you internal memory.

fmadr
but that using up my memory i save everthing to my memory card but main memory still be draining it self dont know why

SD cards are only ever storage memory. The card behaves like a disk drive, that appears to be connected to the mount point '\Storage Card', or whatever your machine is configured to call it, there is a registry hack to change it if you want.
Storage space must be read into main memory, before the CPU can get at it. Access time is pretty quick, but nowhere near main memory speeds.
It's there for storing stuff as its name implies. Apps, data, movies, music, etc etc. It's not much use for anything else.

It sounds like you're confusing program and storage memory. If you're getting program memory errors, then you need to get a task manager and get better control of running applications/processes, or get a task manager that closes applications instead of minimizing them with the 'x' button.
If you are having storage memory issues, then you need to check for log files that might be hogging all the storage memory. Or get a utility like ClearTemp to empty out temporary folders. If you do a lot of streaming, sometimes you can get large stream dumps that aren't properly deleted and that hog a lot of memory.

julian2596 said:
but that using up my memory i save everthing to my memory card but main memory still be draining it self dont know why
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You have probably some large log files, created by ActiveSync or some other program. Use SKTools or something similar to find it, clean Your main memory and disable the logging once You know where it comes from. That way it doesn't fill up Your main memory.

Farmer Ted said:
It sounds like you're confusing program and storage memory. If you're getting program memory errors, then you need to get a task manager and get better control of running applications/processes, or get a task manager that closes applications instead of minimizing them with the 'x' button.
If you are having storage memory issues, then you need to check for log files that might be hogging all the storage memory. Or get a utility like ClearTemp to empty out temporary folders. If you do a lot of streaming, sometimes you can get large stream dumps that aren't properly deleted and that hog a lot of memory.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ted You beat me to it by a minute

thats everyone
thanks using sktools way better in so good. oh and there any developers out there

SD-Card Driver 4 Read Speed
Hello all,
While mentioning SK-Tools ;
Not so long ago I stumbled over this thread;
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=2915068&postcount=1
So use SK-Tools its benchmarking capabilities to test your SD-Card before(!) and after the 'driver' (tnyynt SD TuneUP) mentioned above is installed!!!
It's kinda technical and a lot of 'know how' is discussed, but the main thing = tnyynt SD TuneUP, I assure you, will boost your SD-Card READiNG-PERFORMANCE!!!
Ofcourse, making a backup in advance could make a difference for everyone installing this,
Senax
P.S. I did not make a backup in advance!

How many sms & email do you have, both of these save to the main memory, a few hundred+ will soon fill it up. Internet Explorer cache is the other one to check. These are the 2 biggest memory users.

Can you cook? If so Extendir endir may help in achieving more free Main Memory space...
Hope this helps.

they should make you be able to use you memory card as your main memory or least fix instead of worrying about the windowsmobile7series that not coming out in the end of this year.