Database Users

Newbie question regrading storage cards

I'm new to WM5 having previously had a Blue Angel running 2003SE; so far I like my new toy by am wondering about the pros and cons regrading where to install applications Storage Card versus Main Memory. Obviously, installing on Storage card keeps memory free - this is a good thing, but will applications run slower from storage card?
What expereinace can you share regarding thsi?
Thanks
Chris

In WM2003, internal storage ROM is only used to store a backup of the OS and vendor extensions, and is only read during hard resets. Volatile RAM is used to store the OS, files, and applications during regular use (unless they are installed on the SD card), and so their storage must compete with the RAM needed for running programs.
WM5 changes everything -- with WM5, the OS, applications and files always get stored in a nonvolatile storage, be it internal or external, and this is separate from the RAM. Thus battery loss does not cause you to lose installed applications or files. RAM is totally available for running programs, and is not used to store files which are rarely used. There is no more competition for RAM between stored files and running programs.
The WM5 OS and applications running in the background will always use a certain amount of the 64 MB of RAM. You can free it up by removing unnecessary applications. You can also free up the non-volatile storage space by removing vendor extensions and cleaning up temporary files. See this thread, and search for "0506" in re: O2 XDA Exec ROM.
As I have not received my XDA Exec yet, I cannot comment on the speed differences between using internal storage and SD storage. Obviously both are slower than running programs stored in RAM, and depend on the speed on the storage card. But the difference between installing on a SD card and installing in the "default location" is less in WM5 than in WM2003. Installing in the default location won't reduce your available RAM, for example.
I'm sure others have opinions on how best to optimize memory.

thanks for the answer. I posed the question because I pretty much ran out of memory on my device. I have installed in Corporate mode, so don't have O2 active etc. I have just done a hard reset & will now install everything on my storage card just to see what happens

I have had a few WM5 devices. Basically install everything on a removable card. Only install on the internal storage utilities that you are likely to keep around and restrict this to a minimum and small things, like vbar, TRE, etc.
The disadvantage of course is that if you swap SD cards then you can't run applications until you put back in the card installed. I never have this problem as I have only 1gb card permanently in the system. I will shortly be upgrading to a 4gb card (as they are not around £100) which means this is less of a problem. Although note that in the current version of the xda exec's software the camera refuses to write to a 4gb card unless at least 2gb is full.
rgds

I too have a 1Gb card with a 4Gb on order. I'm not very bothered about the camera, but I have read about the 2Gb problem. Hopefully someone will fix this little bug, but until then I can save photos to main memory and then move them about

As a guide I install everything to a SD Card unless it's a today screen plugin or sync's in some way...

that's excatly my thought too - only things which have a today plugin go on the main memory; everything else to SD card - seems to work fine

Memory question!!

So, I saved all this memory. But the Wizard still allocates memory 50/50 for storage and programs. I open more and more programs, working down towards 0 for program memory and the storage memory still stands at 30MB.
:?: I'm cornfused.

Microsoft changed this behavior at some point, and I'm not sure I understand why (maybe to stop support calls from people who changed the defaults?)
I'm hoping that there's a registry hack to enable changing the ratios. MemMaid shows a slider for it, but it snaps back to 50/50 instantly.

Pre- Windows Mobile 5 devices used volatile RAM for program memory *and* for storage memory. Consequently, a loss of power (e.g. totally drained battery) would cause anything the user installed or stored in the storage memory to be lost.
The memory in WM5 devices is different to in pre-WM5 devices.
WM5 devices use "Persistant Memory Storage".
Program memory is volatile RAM, like in a PC. If power is lost, the contents of the RAM are lost.
Storage memory is non-volatile flash ROM. If power is lost, no data is lost.

I use this reg tweak to stop windows from moving the slider. I now leave the slider at 3 mb on the storage side. Hope this helps!! LuXx
Never defragment Memory
This tweak will make sure your memory will never be fragmented, for optimal memory use.
HKCU\SOFTWARE\MICROSOFT\SHELL
Create an empty key with the name "NeverDorkMemory"

Note that the "NeverDorkMemory" key has no effect on WM5:
http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/for...iew=next&sid=d2056f3326ea430b21236fd42702f402
For more info on memory on WM5, have a look here:
http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archive/2006/03/16/552996.aspx

So trying to synthesize all of this...
So... if I understand this correctly... with WM5:
1. There are several kinds of internal memory:
*Flash (persistent) memory, which in the control panel is called "Storage Memory." This includes installed programs and databases.
*ROM where the OS is for the most part (other than external patches) stored.
*RAM (volatile) memory, which in the control panel is called "Program Memory." Programs and data from Storage and ROM are loaded into RAM to actually run. This is why even a freshly reset device has a good hunk of RAM used to accommodate the OS.
2. RAM is NOT interchangeable with persistent storage, which is why the slider won't move in the control panel. Tweaking the registry will produce a superficial change of allowing the slider to move. But that has no actual effect on how memory is allocated.
3. This implies that saving "Storage Memory" by (a) UPX, (b) installing to a storage card, (c) or any other means available, will do absolutely nothing to improve "Program Memory".
4. The storage card is another kind of memory, "Removable flash (persistent) memory." Since this is in fact even slower read/write than the internal flash memory, there is in fact a net loss in installing to it. Unless you have a ton of data and app's, 40 MB on my Wizard, there is no reason to do that.
QUESTIONS:
1. Are the conclusions above correct? Is it best to just go ahead and install to the internal storage?
2. Are the caches stored in internal Storage, meaning that the old trick of moving the caches to the external Storage is no help? (Again, unless you have loads of data and app's)
3. Where does \Extended_ROM\ fit into all of this?
* Is this just another bank of persistent flash memory that has special protection (surviving hard reset)? Or is it somehow different?
* Does the amount of storage given to the extended ROM simply subtract out of the Storage memory? Or how does this work?
* Can you somehow adjust the memory allocation for the ext ROM?
* Is there any benefit of copying or locating certain files into ext ROM, other than CABs available for reinstall after a hard reset?
4. Is the ROM in fact a fixed storage bank independent of the others? Or can this be recovered to Storage memory?
WM2003's memory was, in contrast, quite simple to understand. I am still struggling to figure out how to best make use of the available memory in WM5, although I really love the benefits of persistent storage (which go way beyond the "iPaq File Store" included on the 6315 which wasn't of tremendous use.)
THANKS for any insights.

Someone really smart...
Can some really smart person give me some insights on this?
wgary said:
So... if I understand this correctly... with WM5:
1. There are several kinds of internal memory:
*Flash (persistent) memory, which in the control panel is called "Storage Memory." This includes installed programs and databases.
*ROM where the OS is for the most part (other than external patches) stored.
*RAM (volatile) memory, which in the control panel is called "Program Memory." Programs and data from Storage and ROM are loaded into RAM to actually run. This is why even a freshly reset device has a good hunk of RAM used to accommodate the OS.
2. RAM is NOT interchangeable with persistent storage, which is why the slider won't move in the control panel. Tweaking the registry will produce a superficial change of allowing the slider to move. But that has no actual effect on how memory is allocated.
3. This implies that saving "Storage Memory" by (a) UPX, (b) installing to a storage card, (c) or any other means available, will do absolutely nothing to improve "Program Memory".
4. The storage card is another kind of memory, "Removable flash (persistent) memory." Since this is in fact even slower read/write than the internal flash memory, there is in fact a net loss in installing to it. Unless you have a ton of data and app's, 40 MB on my Wizard, there is no reason to do that.
QUESTIONS:
1. Are the conclusions above correct? Is it best to just go ahead and install to the internal storage?
2. Are the caches stored in internal Storage, meaning that the old trick of moving the caches to the external Storage is no help? (Again, unless you have loads of data and app's)
3. Where does \Extended_ROM\ fit into all of this?
* Is this just another bank of persistent flash memory that has special protection (surviving hard reset)? Or is it somehow different?
* Does the amount of storage given to the extended ROM simply subtract out of the Storage memory? Or how does this work?
* Can you somehow adjust the memory allocation for the ext ROM?
* Is there any benefit of copying or locating certain files into ext ROM, other than CABs available for reinstall after a hard reset?
4. Is the ROM in fact a fixed storage bank independent of the others? Or can this be recovered to Storage memory?
WM2003's memory was, in contrast, quite simple to understand. I am still struggling to figure out how to best make use of the available memory in WM5, although I really love the benefits of persistent storage (which go way beyond the "iPaq File Store" included on the 6315 which wasn't of tremendous use.)
THANKS for any insights.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
`

Re: So trying to synthesize all of this...
wgary said:
*Flash (persistent) memory, which in the control panel is called "Storage Memory." This includes installed programs and databases.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Correct
wgary said:
*ROM where the OS is for the most part (other than external patches) stored.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is really the same section as the persistent memory - the difference is that this section is reserved and cannot be written to... it is truely read-only, unless you cook your own ROM and install that using a ROM installer (much like the AKU2 ROM update installer).
wgary said:
*RAM (volatile) memory, which in the control panel is called "Program Memory." Programs and data from Storage and ROM are loaded into RAM to actually run. This is why even a freshly reset device has a good hunk of RAM used to accommodate the OS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nearly true. Only the bits that need to be in RAM get loaded into RAM - this does, obviously, include parts of the O/S, a good chunk of the Pocket Outlook services, the phone, and the majority of all drivers.
wgary said:
2. RAM is NOT interchangeable with persistent storage, which is why the slider won't move in the control panel. Tweaking the registry will produce a superficial change of allowing the slider to move. But that has no actual effect on how memory is allocated.
wgary said:
wgary said:
3. This implies that saving "Storage Memory" by (a) UPX, (b) installing to a storage card, (c) or any other means available, will do absolutely nothing to improve "Program Memory".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Correct.
wgary said:
4. The storage card is another kind of memory, "Removable flash (persistent) memory." Since this is in fact even slower read/write than the internal flash memory, there is in fact a net loss in installing to it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This really depends. If you have an application that does not make use of heavy I/O but is a fairly large install, you could very well install it on the MiniSD card to save storage on the main device. Keep in mind that the main device storage memory is fairly low (really stupid slow, imho) and that it's best reserved for those applications that, due to programmer error, fail to work when installed on the MiniSD card.
wgary said:
Unless you have a ton of data and app's, 40 MB on my Wizard, there is no reason to do that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you find you have enough space available on the main storage - then no, no point in installing to the MiniSD card.
wgary said:
1. Are the conclusions above correct? Is it best to just go ahead and install to the internal storage?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See above.
wgary said:
2. Are the caches stored in internal Storage, meaning that the old trick of moving the caches to the external Storage is no help? (Again, unless you have loads of data and app's)
wgary said:
on which caches you are referring to. There's a tweak to put the browser cache on the MiniSD card, which I think is a fine thing to do. I don't think there's any way to move the Messaging database file to the MiniSD card, though.
wgary said:
3. Where does \Extended_ROM\ fit into all of this?
* Is this just another bank of persistent flash memory that has special protection (surviving hard reset)?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's the same persistent flash memory, just allocated to be the ROM part. It's not really ROM, as it can be reflashed using another ROM. The interchangeable use of "ROM" is really a bit confusing - think of the ROMs (both O/S as in AKU2 and Extended Rom) as being the Firmware instead.
wgary said:
* Does the amount of storage given to the extended ROM simply subtract out of the Storage memory?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It depends on the ROM/Extended ROM you're working with. Overall, it's a fixed portion - I don't recall the exact number. Depending on the ROM - e.g. Orange vs T-Mobile vs Qtek, there may be a bit of free space left that they didn't fill. Or, otherwise, the Extended ROM may contain applications that you have no use for, and you oculd remove those from the Extended ROM before reflashing. But just having this empty space or removing these applications you won't use won't free up any space for your own applications/files/etc.
What some people do, however, is to place their application(s) of choice in the Extended ROM instead. So, for example, say you don't want the anti-virus thing in the iMate ROM, but you're a regular user of Total Commander. You could replace the anti-virus thing with Total Commander in the Extended ROM (theoretically - no idea if it would fit.. just an example), and in that way 'save' space for other applications/files by not having to install Total Commander in the regular storage space.
wgary said:
* Can you somehow adjust the memory allocation for the ext ROM?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think there's an easy way, no...
wgary said:
* Is there any benefit of copying or locating certain files into ext ROM, other than CABs available for reinstall after a hard reset?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See above... you wouldn't really place the CABs in there (if you just want them easily available for re-installation after a hard reset, place them on your MiniSD card instead), but the full programs.
wgary said:
4. Is the ROM in fact a fixed storage bank independent of the others?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's independent of the RAM bank, but otherwise the same for the regular storage.
wgary said:
Or can this be recovered to Storage memory?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not with any manner of easy a la a slider.
I think that overall, all of the above questions really just stem from one thing: we need more RAM and more storage space on these devices. I don't know why we're still limited to 64MB/128MB (half of which is the ROM/ExtROM) when memory is, quite frankly, cheap. I understand that with the MiniSD Card you can easily expand the storage space - but unfortunately there are tons of programmers out there who apparently code in such a way that their programs fail to run, or simply become buggy, when placed there. Some of this may be WM5's fault*, but I fail to see how for the majority of applications.
( * e.g. the SD card driver being loaded too late, so that any StartUp program relying on files on the SD card fails. This is really an issue of MS/OEMs wanting to make the device look faster to boot by presenting the OS before all drivers are done loading. )
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Hi,
this is my first post on this forum so probably it will be a little newb style but what the heck, I can't find the answer to my question so I will dig this topic out
ZeBoxx said:
wgary said:
4. The storage card is another kind of memory, "Removable flash (persistent) memory." Since this is in fact even slower read/write than the internal flash memory, there is in fact a net loss in installing to it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This really depends. If you have an application that does not make use of heavy I/O but is a fairly large install, you could very well install it on the MiniSD card to save storage on the main device. Keep in mind that the main device storage memory is fairly low (really stupid slow, imho) and that it's best reserved for those applications that, due to programmer error, fail to work when installed on the MiniSD card.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1) I believe it still remains true? I mean I'm using HTC Tytn and microSD ultra II card and still the internal flash memory is faster than the removable flash right? So until I got some space left on the internal memory for better performance I should install apps right there? Are there some recommendations to not fullfil this memory (ie. always leave 10% space on it)?
2) What about battery drain? Are there any significant differences in that aspect between those 2 memories?

Question regarding the Internal memory of O2 XDA Exec

Hi all,
Could anyone please tell me the differences between the storage memory and the program memory? Yeah, I know this might sounds stupid and I also wish that the answer is really that straight forward.
I always thought that 'Program Memory' is suppose the memory quota for us to install application & softwares. Where, storage memory is just simply the portion of memory where we stores data that we creates.
But whenever I install applications, 'storage' is the memory which always to be used up. Yet, I can hardly use up my 'program' portion of memory...
Can anyone tell me why? and how to install applications in the program memory instead of storage memory?
Thank you very much.
Cheers!

Search would have helped a great deal here, FAQ.
Storage is Flash
Programs is RAM
WM5 works the same way as a desktop. It loads the OS from disk to RAM when you power it on. When you remove the battery everything is safely stored to disc, not RAM as WM2003 was. Battery can go flat, no backup battery needed.

PReDiToR said:
Search would have helped a great deal here, FAQ.
Storage is Flash
Programs is RAM
WM5 works the same way as a desktop. It loads the OS from disk to RAM when you power it on. When you remove the battery everything is safely stored to disc, not RAM as WM2003 was. Battery can go flat, no backup battery needed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
..... so how do you save stuff to Program memory? Or is that just temp momory that stuff runs from when you execute it?

You can`t save stuff to program memory.The program memory is like the RAM in your PC,just used for temporary storage and running programs.The storage memory is like the hard drive in your PC,used for actually `storing` data.

liverman666 said:
You can`t save stuff to program memory.The program memory is like the RAM in your PC,just used for temporary storage and running programs.The storage memory is like the hard drive in your PC,used for actually `storing` data.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So why do they bother displaying it on the memory settings?
And does that mean it's different to how it was on the XDA2? That used to have a slider allowing you to change the allocation for storage/program memory.

RE
I find storage memory is the one you need to watch out. As you install more programs whether to SD card or to Program memory the storage memory goes down
Too low storage memory and your system will not perform properly. Install programs with large file size first then follow by programs with smaller file size otherwise you'll encounter installation 'Not enough memory' if you do it the other way round

Should/can I move apps to storage card?

Hi
I have installed a few programs on my TD2 - all to device rather than storage card - and am getting a little concerned that performance may be suffering. With my prevous device I used SK Tools to move apps to the card - but I'm not 100% clear whether this is good practice.
With nothing running, Settings reports 223.10 MB free for storage (75.29 in use) and 75.87 MD free for programs (108 in use). I have installed things like Sprite Backup and Terminator, ActivePrint, SPB FreeCell, MyLife Organized PocketPC Edition, Resco Sudoku Touch and Gaz TD2 Tools.
Really grateful for any advice.
Thanks

I don't see why installing programs to the device memory should cause performance to suffer? It's only available RAM memory which affects performance, and this remains the same whether you instal to the device or to the card. It's when you open, and leave open, several programs at once that performance suffers.
The nice thing about modern phones is the amount of internal storage, which is plenty for masses of programs. The only performance issue you may have is when downloading large files with Internet Explorer, as I think it uses internal storage as temporary space for the file being downloaded, even if you tell it to save to the memory card. I don't think Opera does this though.
Installing programs to the card means you can't "hot-swap" it unless you're absolutely sure all the programs are closed.

In addition to the above internal phone mem is faster than mem card so performance takes a hit if you use the card.
And you run the risk of more freezes and resets being needed.
It is my firm belief that the use of internal mem avoids a lot of hassles all round by making the phone more stable.
And I almost forgot that internal mem uses less battery power than mem cards.

Easy answer...
Use removable storage for data, on-board storage for apps.
If you have too many apps for on-board storage, consider a slimmer ROM for your phone. Remember on-board storage also works as RAM for your apps, so the more you have available, the more apps you can run.

DeathJester said:
Use removable storage for data, on-board storage for apps.
If you have too many apps for on-board storage, consider a slimmer ROM for your phone. Remember on-board storage also works as RAM for your apps, so the more you have available, the more apps you can run.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd check on that last statement if I were you!
The Topaz has 3 memory areas.
One for flashed ROM.
One for operating RAM.
AND one for storage.
It makes no difference how much you put in storage RAM.
It does make a difference how many apps are running at any one time in operating RAM.
A slimmer ROM image won't make much difference either.
How much of that ROM image is unnecessarily floating around in operating RAM at any one time will make a difference.
Go to settings/system/device information/hardware inforamation
I currently show
RAM size
288 MB
Flash memory size
512 MB
Storage size
342.47 MB
That's a lot of free storage available onboard that is just waiting to be used.
If you go into settings/system/memory you will find storage and program memory values displayed.
Install an app and the in use value of storage memory goes up.
Run an app and the in use value of program memory goes up.
Showing that they are two quite separate physical areas running "independantly" of each other.

Thanks!
Thanks for the helpful responses - much appreciated.
Andrew

werdna72 said:
Thanks for the helpful responses - much appreciated.
Andrew
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your welcome to any help we can give.

Memory usage

Hello,
Can someone elaborate on what is meant by Storage memory and Program memory?
I would expect storage to be My Docs and Programs to be Windows and so on. I ask since my Storage allocation is two thirds full and all my docs on the device is empty. I use the SD card for that.
Cheers.

rphillip said:
Hello,
Can someone elaborate on what is meant by Storage memory and Program memory?
I would expect storage to be My Docs and Programs to be Windows and so on. I ask since my Storage allocation is two thirds full and all my docs on the device is empty. I use the SD card for that.
Cheers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
-Storage memory is memory used for saving files on you're phone, extention is you're memory card (micro SD).
-Program memory, is like the RAM-memory on you're PC, this is used when running programmes, watching movies-pictures...

Thanks. Well there are two storage areas. "Main" and "Storage Card". My query is for "Main". Within this there is "Storage" and "Program".
I would like to know what is used for what so I can look in a specific area and delete stuff I don't need. Like I said "Storage" seems rather full but I do not store anything on the phone itself. I use the storage card which does not present a problem.

In the storage info on the settings tab, under device it shows "storage" which is like your hard drive, and "program" which is like your RAM. Obviously, you don't actually have a hard drive. It's just an example
There's certain stuff that gets cached on the internal storage, and this can obviously bump up the space that's used (there's threads on here for cleaning/moving these things). Then there's the other culprit - Marketplace. If you've installed stuff from there, it's on internet memory, not your storage card. Also, do you install software to the device, or to the storage card? I only put essential stuff on the device, and stuff that I can live without on the storage card.
Just thoughts and suggestions.

johncmolyneux said:
In the storage info on the settings tab, under device it shows "storage" which is like your hard drive, and "program" which is like your RAM. Obviously, you don't actually have a hard drive. It's just an example
There's certain stuff that gets cached on the internal storage, and this can obviously bump up the space that's used (there's threads on here for cleaning/moving these things). Then there's the other culprit - Marketplace. If you've installed stuff from there, it's on internet memory, not your storage card. Also, do you install software to the device, or to the storage card? I only put essential stuff on the device, and stuff that I can live without on the storage card.
Just thoughts and suggestions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ah ok that explains a little then. I have been installing cabs to the device.

Do not understand; my total storage memory is 181,23MB, in use is 175,21MB, but when I check in explorer, there is only 89MB in use. What am I missing here??
Also, what does it mean program storage - total space 336,97MB?
Flash size 512MB, RAM size 448MB, what is the difference?

Its rather more complex than it ought to be, and HTC are being a little 'economical' with the truth!
It has 512MB of total storage, of which about 175MB is taken up by the ROM image. This leaves the 337MB you see reported. Of this, about 150MB is taken up by the HTC Sense system, then another chunk by the video memory leaving around 135MB free to the user. The new 'Light' custom ROMs without HTC Sense have over 300MB free to the user.
The 448MB RAM is just that- same as a PCs RAM. Even after loading the OS on startup there is ample ROM left for pretty much any eventuality!