Related
I don't think this quite merits a development thread so i'll just post it here.
How bloated is the Android OS?
The number one priority of a mobile phone has always been to keep the OS nice and "slim". Android is pretty good at this since it uses Linux (which is pretty slim compared to Windows/MacOS).
Windows Mobile is FAT. It's ridiculously bloated and as it's been around for so long it's just kind of accumulated mass like a rolling snowball. HTC and XDA do a great job of hiding it but you can just always tell.
The iPhone OS is shockingly bloated. They think 16GB and adequate specs give them an excuse but it's almost as bloated as WinMo and it only caters to ONE PHONE (two models now).
Surely the Java side to Android surely must bloat it, and something about it makes me think it is. Java is a bloated tool as it is, and it's useful for many reasons among dynamic compiling (I think), but it seems like they could have done a better job sticking to pure Linux. Looks at Maemo for example.
How does one answer how bloated a OS is?
My attempt: Android is NOT bloated
Antiskunk said:
I don't think this quite merits a development thread so i'll just post it here.
How bloated is the Android OS?
The number one priority of a mobile phone has always been to keep the OS nice and "slim". Android is pretty good at this since it uses Linux (which is pretty slim compared to Windows/MacOS).
Windows Mobile is FAT. It's ridiculously bloated and as it's been around for so long it's just kind of accumulated mass like a rolling snowball. HTC and XDA do a great job of hiding it but you can just always tell.
The iPhone OS is shockingly bloated. They think 16GB and adequate specs give them an excuse but it's almost as bloated as WinMo and it only caters to ONE PHONE (two models now).
Surely the Java side to Android surely must bloat it, and something about it makes me think it is. Java is a bloated tool as it is, and it's useful for many reasons among dynamic compiling (I think), but it seems like they could have done a better job sticking to pure Linux. Looks at Maemo for example.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What in the world do you mean by 'bloat'? You can't use such a subjective word so much without qualifying it with some sort of description.
lol yeah. Sometimes it just feels like there's excess, causing the OS to slow down unnecessarily.
For instance, android using java. It seems like it's a waste; causing over-use of the hardware, where something customised may reduce it.
Like Vista. Vista was bloated compared to xp, making it run much more slowly, despite having above-adequate hardware.
I suppose it's not true java, it is custom java, is it not?
I just feel sometimes it slows down when it shouldn't.
Don't get me wrong, it does an incredible job and I love it over any other OS.
Antiskunk said:
lol yeah. Sometimes it just feels like there's excess, causing the OS to slow down unnecessarily.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Bloat is a subjective term at best. And unecessarily? Everything is a tradeoff. Generally, especially without JIT, java based apps will not run as fast as a C based app. The tradeoff is in sandboxing, control, and ease of development. The question is whether the speed difference significantly impacts the user experience. It varies with the individual but I suspect most people would find the Nexus 1 to be sufficiently responsive.
Antiskunk said:
For instance, android using java. It seems like it's a waste; causing over-use of the hardware, where something customised may reduce it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Clearly you have never tried to develop a complex system, much less an operating system. The vast majority of the time the CPU is barely used. The concept of "over-use of hardware" is not a well formed one. The question instead should be whether the infrastructure makes efficient use of the hardware. In real life you look at the infrastructure and make a balance as to what can be done to ease development and support while maintaining the sense of responsiveness for the end user.
Vista is an example where the balance was not weighted to match user expectation and thus all the complaints of "bloat." The N1 by comparison can not be said to be slow or unresponsive. Sure, it could be made faster, and chances are future releases will reflect that. This does not mean that the N1 is "bloated".
Antiskunk said:
Like Vista. Vista was bloated compared to xp, making it run much more slowly, despite having above-adequate hardware.
I suppose it's not true java, it is custom java, is it not?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, Dalvik is a custom java bytecode format. Again a compromise for the memory and cpu found in an embedded device versus a full size computer.
Antiskunk said:
I just feel sometimes it slows down when it shouldn't.
Don't get me wrong, it does an incredible job and I love it over any other OS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't take this personally but bloated is an annoying term used when people do not understand how to phrase "I want it faster." Bloat implies the removal of something unnecessary to make the system better.
What shall we remove from Android? Java/Dalvik? The entire platform is based on Dalvik, remove it and you are essentially starting over with your own set of compromises. Memory management? Can't remove it at all. Multitasking/background threads? Well here is something that can/does slow down the main system but for good reason. Commercial apps like Amazon MP3? Well they do not impact performance and are considered desirable by some.
So no, the N1 is not "bloated". It is a sum of parts to support a specified set of features and level of effort for development. Feel free to write your own platform though, or a custom ROM with the components you feel are unnecessary removed.
The work on JIT will likely improve speed a good deal, but that is not removing features; That is optimizing the platform, if we waited for the platform to be optimized it would never get released at all.
The op definately knows the defintion of bloated.
There's so much bloat infused into one post my brain slowed down trying to read it.
Yeah, it is really streamlined considering.
My main concern was really about the java side to it.
I guess it's just my experience with the difference between something like Vuze and uTorrent.
How much/well is it customised?
This is not a thread bashing the Xoom or Android. I love them both.
I have moved my company to Droid (1's) and Incredible, and fought the IPAD in the enterprise at every turn.
I have also worked hard to install Linux on every desktop I can, where ever I can.
My question is, where are we going?
Android is perfect for a small pocket device. Small screen, limited resources, touch, and hopefully extended battery life. Tweaking and Developing Android allows us to squeeze even more functionality out of our powerful pocket computers. Adroid makes our phones cool. It is the hackers switchblade.
However, with the tablet form factor, we are all attempting to take an embedded device, with a purposefully designed lean Linux installation, and patch it back to a full fledge desktop operating system. We are slowing undoing Android on Xoom and turning it into a Linux Desktop without a keyboard.
Some very skilled devs have placed Ubuntu on the Xoom. I was thrilled when I heard the news. My very next thought was... Wait. Full Chrome, Full Codec Support, full everything! Its all ready to use, in a small Xoom shape and size. However, Ubuntu has poorly designed touch interfaces for most apps, and most things require a keyboard. (or right click mouse)
So. My question is. Why not continue to develop Linux, any flavor, ( I like debs) and create great user interface, that runs on X, and a great GTK with big touch buttons, et, so that we can run already developed software?
Why are recreating the wheel? Isn't Android going to simply develop into a full Linux Distro fork, that diverts talent away from the whole?
….And Discuss....
Plain and simply.. Linux is not Android. Android is not Linux. One does this and the other does that. One is Google owned one is not. One is made for handheld devices while one is not. Comparing apples and bananas never works no matter what the situation may be.
Each has its own purposes.
I somewhat agree. I think its more like a comparison between Red Delicious Apples and Granny Smith. They are both apples.
Comparing a Windows 7 Phone and Android is Apples and Oranges because have a different underpinning.
Both run the Linux Kernel. Both run several GNU packages. It is true that they have different interface layers, and Android relies alot of Java (Although Linux (GNU) can and does run Java as well.
I guess that is my point. Most of what needs to be written to run on a Linux kernel (Like Android's) to make a great terminal device (Which really is what Android is) has already been written, and vetted, some software since the 1970's. Why rewrite it in Java, using the Android framework, making it incompatible with the larger Linux Ecosystem? Or, if Java is key to app portability between architectures, why change the java engine so that it isn't compatible with the Java we already run on our desktops?
Again, I'm thinking out loud, not argue, but because I think something is missing from the community plan? What if all of the time put into the different Phone ROMS on XDA (based on Android) was used to make a more compatible, and universal Linux for Tablets?
remote sessions
I use pocketcloud and splashtopHd all the time on my xoom, barely worth it on a phone form factor, but this way I have full desktop support with touch ui integrated and at the same time I have all the great things android offers over desktop systems as well if I'm off the grid.
From what I've read android is a base of Linux but from the point of programs and interaction its all google design. Which is why we can Ubuntu nativley but will have the issues the op mentioned for drivers an ui interface, but I imagine as touch becomes defacto we'll see drivers and ui 's designed with more touch orientation integrated...win8 already looks to be shapping up that way from the looks of it. So possibly we'll be able to run future versions of Linux distros on the xoom, so long as the specs still meet the requirements
I totally agree with your point of view, I hear ya. But, the idea of having Linux on the tablets rather than Android... isn't that a battle between the big companies as to what OS they want to support on their own devices? Motorola and HTC are two big companies and they choose to support Android on their devices all the way. I guess if there would be a company out there that would prefer Linux OS on their devices we could very well see this as an ultimate possibility. One never knows.
>But where are we going?
The only people who can answer that are Google. They've yet to articulate a comprehensive roadmap for Android. The only strategy thus far has been to throw out a freebie to vendors and let them adopt it as they will.
The problem is that what vendors want (differentiation through proprietary enhancements) isn't what the public want (uniform UI, cross-product interoperability). Add to that are gaping holes in basic functionality in Android, like peripheral support--printers, scanners, 3G modems, etc.
I suspect that Goog themselves don't really know. If they did, there wouldn't be overlapping efforts like the Chrome OS (which is apparently DOA for now). Rubin bud needs to figure it out soon.
Win8 beta in Sept will determine the extent of Windows' viability for the mobile space. From simple extrapolation of Win7's capabilities + touch GUI + ARM support, it's a relative safe bet that Win8 will have a big presence in tablets next year.
The picture for Android-on-tabs is more vague. ICS should clarify things a bit, one way or another.
e.mote said:
>But where are we going?
The only people who can answer that are Google. They've yet to articulate a comprehensive roadmap for Android. The only strategy thus far has been to throw out a freebie to vendors and let them adopt it as they will.
The problem is that what vendors want (differentiation through proprietary enhancements) isn't what the public want (uniform UI, cross-product interoperability). Add to that are gaping holes in basic functionality in Android, like peripheral support--printers, scanners, 3G modems, etc.
I suspect that Goog themselves don't really know. If they did, there wouldn't be overlapping efforts like the Chrome OS (which is apparently DOA for now). Rubin bud needs to figure it out soon.
Win8 beta in Sept will determine the extent of Windows' viability for the mobile space. From simple extrapolation of Win7's capabilities + touch GUI + ARM support, it's a relative safe bet that Win8 will have a big presence in tablets next year.
The picture for Android-on-tabs is more vague. ICS should clarify things a bit, one way or another.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ICE CREAM SANDWICH?
Sent from my Xoom using XDA Premium App
I think it is not so much recreating the wheel so much as trimming down and adapting.
X with gnome/kde is not currently a good fit for a touch screen only device. Even if the window manager could be adapted to work well for touch screen only, interaction with most applications would still be problematic. Getting application developers to go in a common direction is hard enough as is.... and you want to ask all of them to rewrite the apps to work in a touch screen environment? Still if you want to try this route you could get a meego or work in KDE embedded. The effort (as Nokia discovered, and Open Moko before them) is non trivial however.
Android, and by extension Android applications, are designed to work with a touch screen interface from the beginning. It is less work to extend the structure to support larger screens than the adaptation X based applications would have to go through.
Android is not a general purpose computing platform though. It was originally written to work in a cell phone environment, with the attendant limitations and advantages. I think this core concept has not changed with the introduction of the tablet. We are still dealing with a connected device whose primary purpose is the consumption of information. What I mean by this is that android is not meant for creation (such as creation of MS office documents, programming, photoshop, etc...) but consumption (playing games, reading mail, browsing the web, reading MS office documents, etc...)
Where I think Android should be going for the near future is refining and improving the ability to consume information:
- Make web browsing more robust, including html5
- Improve video decoding with better codec and container support.
- Make it easier to read documents on the device.
- improve resolution independence at the API level.
- Improve round trips from desktop to cloud to device and back. Make the device used neutral to the information being consumed. e.g. bookmark and open tab syncing in the browser. better dropbox like functionality for availability of files that have been worked on.
Where I want to see it going in the long run can be seen in a nascent form with the Atrix and the Lenovo U1:
- Based upon available resources (keyboard, mouse, monitor) shift from a touch screen interface to a conventional desktop interface. (extend what the Atrix does)
- Make it easy to extend the functionality of the core device by connecting it to resources. (extending the idea behind the Asus Transformer)
- In a perfect world I would like to see a full desktop OS run when requested and be able to use external CPUs (think Lenovo U1). In essence I would like the device to be able to be a boot disk for the user, connect it do a desktop for raw power, connect it to a laptop base for on the go functionality, and use just the phone/tablet for ubiquitous computing. This dream is still a few years from being practical though.
- Make the android OS an installable and user upgradeable OS just as desktop OSes are now. This is even further out but I can see a future where mobile device hardware and OS are separate. This might never come to fruition though due to the way carriers control the phone experience.
And tangentially we could see the Android platform espouse device centric ideals as seen in Japan currently.
- Use the phone as a payment system.
- Augment magazines and stores with tags to feed the phone contextual information.
To be honest I have not given it much thought. I am interested to see where Google is going with the platform however.
youngproguru said:
So. My question is. Why not continue to develop Linux, any flavor, ( I like debs) and create great user interface, that runs on X, and a great GTK with big touch buttons, et, so that we can run already developed software?
Why are recreating the wheel? Isn't Android going to simply develop into a full Linux Distro fork, that diverts talent away from the whole?
….And Discuss....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The main differentiator between Linux or other free 'nix-likes these days, and Android, is that Android enforces, encourages, and _guarantees_ a standardized uniform development platform, a single UI standard, standardized set of software in the platform, and a standardized user experience.
Linux et al guarantees none of this.
If you want those specific freedoms Linux offers you, then it is there, by all means. The beauty of having open devices like the Xoom and other devices with open bootloaders is you are free to make your choice.
I have a feeling that three to six months from now the whole picture will come to bare. We will have the "cloud" and chrome PC, Android phones, Android tablets, TVs, Google+, Google music all wrapped into one. Google is renaming blogger to Google blogs, picassa into Google photo.
It is scary a little but it seems like it is all coming together. It is almost there, each boundary has bumps but me thinks Google is trying to make it seamless.
JanetPanic said:
I think it is not so much recreating the wheel so much as trimming down and adapting.
X with gnome/kde is not currently a good fit for a touch screen only device. Even if the window manager could be adapted to work well for touch screen only, interaction with most applications would still be problematic. Getting application developers to go in a common direction is hard enough as is.... and you want to ask all of them to rewrite the apps to work in a touch screen environment? Still if you want to try this route you could get a meego or work in KDE embedded. The effort (as Nokia discovered, and Open Moko before them) is non trivial however.
Android, and by extension Android applications, are designed to work with a touch screen interface from the beginning. It is less work to extend the structure to support larger screens than the adaptation X based applications would have to go through.
Android is not a general purpose computing platform though. It was originally written to work in a cell phone environment, with the attendant limitations and advantages. I think this core concept has not changed with the introduction of the tablet. We are still dealing with a connected device whose primary purpose is the consumption of information. What I mean by this is that android is not meant for creation (such as creation of MS office documents, programming, photoshop, etc...) but consumption (playing games, reading mail, browsing the web, reading MS office documents, etc...)
Where I think Android should be going for the near future is refining and improving the ability to consume information:
- Make web browsing more robust, including html5
- Improve video decoding with better codec and container support.
- Make it easier to read documents on the device.
- improve resolution independence at the API level.
- Improve round trips from desktop to cloud to device and back. Make the device used neutral to the information being consumed. e.g. bookmark and open tab syncing in the browser. better dropbox like functionality for availability of files that have been worked on.
Where I want to see it going in the long run can be seen in a nascent form with the Atrix and the Lenovo U1:
- Based upon available resources (keyboard, mouse, monitor) shift from a touch screen interface to a conventional desktop interface. (extend what the Atrix does)
- Make it easy to extend the functionality of the core device by connecting it to resources. (extending the idea behind the Asus Transformer)
- In a perfect world I would like to see a full desktop OS run when requested and be able to use external CPUs (think Lenovo U1). In essence I would like the device to be able to be a boot disk for the user, connect it do a desktop for raw power, connect it to a laptop base for on the go functionality, and use just the phone/tablet for ubiquitous computing. This dream is still a few years from being practical though.
- Make the android OS an installable and user upgradeable OS just as desktop OSes are now. This is even further out but I can see a future where mobile device hardware and OS are separate. This might never come to fruition though due to the way carriers control the phone experience.
And tangentially we could see the Android platform espouse device centric ideals as seen in Japan currently.
- Use the phone as a payment system.
- Augment magazines and stores with tags to feed the phone contextual information.
To be honest I have not given it much thought. I am interested to see where Google is going with the platform however.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your vision for the future of android/tab computing is fantastic. I already have replaced my laptop for the type of on-the-road computing work I need to do...with my bt keyboard and mouse and the cloud, I am creating MS Word documents and printing when back in the office. It's a good start. I use my charging docks when I'm stationary so additional functionality from docking stations and connected peripherals would be welcome. I think the current size of the Xoom is optimal. It needs to stay small enough to haul around easily but big enough to be more than a toy or large phone.
It is already my favored way to consume information...I'm pretty happy with my browsing experience and have no real issues streaming music, video, reading news/books. I think that this will only get better.
>X with gnome/kde is not currently a good fit for a touch screen only device. Even if the window manager could be adapted to work well for touch screen only, interaction with most applications would still be problematic. Getting application developers to go in a common direction is hard enough as is.
It's the same with Win7. That Win8 will (reportedly) rectify this while Linux fiddles is the main weakness of open-source--getting everybody to agree on a direction. I expect that, as mobile computing diversifies, that Linux will, as before, follow Windows' lead.
>Android is not a general purpose computing platform though. It was originally written to work in a cell phone environment, with the attendant limitations and advantages. I think this core concept has not changed with the introduction of the tablet.
I agree with this.
>Where I think Android should be going for the near future is refining and improving the ability to consume information:
I disagree with this. Whereas the physical size of a smartphone is the main impediment, lack of an integral physical input device is the tablet's sole limitation in being a productivity device. This limitation is very surmountable.
On the demand side, looking at the app mix on the iPad should indicate that content creation on tablets have high demand. The clamor for Office-type apps is strong. The tablet may not yet be able to do heavy productivity, but it should be able to do light ones.
The impetus to productivity is, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the upcoming Win8. Ignoring its immense userbase for the moment, when a user has a choice between a tablet for consumption-only, and one that does both consumption and (light) creation, it's an easy choice. The smartphone killed the PDA/MP3 player/digicam/etc because it can do more than any one of these erstwhile devices.
More succinctly, Android doesn't have the luxury of a slow ramp.
>[various improvements for consumption]
I agree that these are probably what we'll see in ICS. They're incremental. I see them as insufficient in light of the upcoming competition.
>Where I want to see it going in the long run can be seen in a nascent form with the Atrix and the Lenovo U1:
This is where fragmentation rears its ugly head (as if it hasn't already). What you're referring to requires brand interoperability, which vendors are loath to do without a strong hand from the OS supplier. Google have yet to be that strong hand. To wit, both of the above examples only work within the respective vendor's product lines, and both are marketplace failures.
Fragmentation is the other issue Android needs to deal with. Other than the 18-month upgrade "pledge," I don't see much inclination from Goog to deal with this.
>- In a perfect world I would like to see a full desktop OS run when requested and be able to use external CPUs (think Lenovo U1).
>- Make the android OS an installable and user upgradeable OS just as desktop OSes are now.
Both of these are realizable with Win7 (on tablets) now, and I expect them to extend to Win8. The ideal desktop-tablet synergy I think will require better short-range connectivity, probably some flavor of UWB in the pipe.
I am not Apple fanboy, but i think that Anddroid OS has a big optimisation problem.
For example the iphone 4S had a CPU 800 Mz and it seem to be real fast. But the latest Androphone plan to use Dual CPU. Is Android OS needed more ressources than iOS?
Before make effort to get more material ressources, is n't time for google to optimise his OS ?
Symbian was an OS whitch was too optimsed and i would like to have an Android OS like that.
Someones wouldnt like what i said but it is my deep think.
+1 BRO !!!!
I really dont know why the **** iOS is that smooth, never noticed any lag on an Iphone. But you should think about that : Every Phone needs his own setup, caused of CPU, GPU and other things like ram and so on....
every iPhone got the same setup, optimized for iPhone 4 , iPhone 3GS and so one. They all got the same CPU and GPU, so they really can tweak every singe hardware.
Google just give us a source code, which every Company, Like Samsung or HTC have to port on their new device...
By the way, HTC got much better optimized Original Roms than Samsung. ( I have seen some OFW running on HTC Desire, and they are very smooth... )
lascoul said:
....
Before make effort to get more material ressources, is n't time for google to optimise his OS ?
.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is same way as MS passed: one simple question to you: how would you like to optimize the OS against HUNDREDS of available hardware combinations?
Of course, the Apple choice is easy and smooth: ONE hardware set, ONE OS.
similar was already done by Ford with model T: everyone could have it with favourite colour, as long as it was black. and now the ford position on global market is...
it's easy to optimize a software for 1 device but for 10000+ devices it's not that easy
dadyal said:
it's easy to optimize a software for 1 device but for 10000+ devices it's not that easy
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If google doesn't optimise the OS. He may do it for his phones. take a look at the future Nexus prime it will get a dual core CPU. But don't think that is necessary if the OS is much optimise. The ipohne 4S had only a CPU at 800MHZ
spamtrash said:
It is same way as MS passed: one simple question to you: how would you like to optimize the OS against HUNDREDS of available hardware combinations?
Of course, the Apple choice is easy and smooth: ONE hardware set, ONE OS.
similar was already done by Ford with model T: everyone could have it with favourite colour, as long as it was black. and now the ford position on global market is...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But a think that the OS is not optimise for googles phones. Otherwise why will they use a dual core CPU in Nexus Prime?
I thought the difference in speed was because of the way they handled multitasking. It was only recently that iOS even had multitasking. But this is probably just a part of the reason why iOS is faster.
lascoul said:
If google doesn't optimise the OS. He may do it for his phones. take a look at the future Nexus prime it will get a dual core CPU. But don't think that is necessary if the OS is much optimise. The ipohne 4S had only a CPU at 800MHZ
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
iPhone 4S: 1 GHz dual-core ARM Cortex-A9 processor
They both have dual-cores.
Yea ios is optimized better. But it also doesn't have many basic features like android. Like a proper customizable homescreen with the ability to chose your launcher (no, lockscreen and an app tray are NOT an homescreen like apple has been trying to sell it), widgets, proper multitask, proper application integration, live wallpapers, lack of an external SD, etc. That makes for a lightweight system. You gain speed but lose features.
That said, granted, android needs to be generic. But as soon as a big company like samsung picks up android and starts developing to one device of their own making, this "1 OS for all devices" gap ceases to exist. Its 1 OS being optimized to a single piece hardware, and they have all they need for proper optimization.
This isn't the same as windows -> 1000 kinds of hardware. Windows comes prepared from Microsoft to run everywhere so that applies. Android doesn't come prepared to run everywhere from google. You can't simply just download and put it on your phone regardless of brand. Has an extra step of preparation from hardware developing companies like HTC or Samsung.
What i'm trying to say is, there is room for optimization. But companies don't care much because they are on a tight schedule on market competition to put out the next big thing, have hardware specs to compensate for poorly optimized coding and in the end stuff works just the same, since most people, sadly, won't notice or care that much for those extra delays/lags.
Can't speak for other brands, but Samsung proved with SGS they don't care much for good coding. The community has been, since its release, improving this phone leaps and bounds and continue to do so even though a successor has shown up.
At the end, companies don't care enough, imo.
kaynpayn said:
What i'm trying to say is, there is room for optimization. But companies don't care much because they are on a tight schedule on market competition to put out the next big thing, have hardware specs to compensate for poorly optimized coding and in the end stuff works just the same, since most people, sadly, won't notice or care that much for those extra delays/lags.
Can't speak for other brands, but Samsung proved with SGS they don't care much for good coding. The community has been, since its release, improving this phone leaps and bounds and continue to do so even though a successor has shown up.
At the end, companies don't care enough, imo.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i am aggre with u. The compagny must provide us much optimise Room before growing the specs of the phones.
lascoul said:
I am not Apple fanboy, but i think that Anddroid OS has a big optimisation problem.
For example the iphone 4S had a CPU 800 Mz and it seem to be real fast. But the latest Androphone plan to use Dual CPU. Is Android OS needed more ressources than iOS?
Before make effort to get more material ressources, is n't time for google to optimise his OS ?
Symbian was an OS whitch was too optimsed and i would like to have an Android OS like that.
Someones wouldnt like what i said but it is my deep think.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Iphones are smooth because iOS was designed to work on one device (technically, 9 devices if you count all the variants of iphones, ipads and ipods) only whereas Android has to work on hundreds of devices with different processors and hardware.
Also, iOS removes so many functionalities from the user, hence has more free ram.
disclaimernotice said:
Iphones are smooth because iOS was designed to work on one device (technically, 9 devices if you count all the variants of iphones, ipads and ipods) only whereas Android has to work on hundreds of devices with different processors and hardware.
Also, iOS removes so many functionalities from the user, hence has more free ram.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The job of compagnies like SAMSUNG, HTC ... isn't to optimise the OS for they devices? To say that there are more devices is not an apologizes
First step then should be: CLOSE the system. Lock it all, and after that, you can optimize system individually for each phone, completely separately. Another option is to push Samsung, HTC, LG, SE or whoever else to have SAME hardware configuration.
Then: you will loose:
- all custom ROMs, bootloaders, CWM, root, kernels;
- all customized versions of stock apk's, like phone, start screens, themes, Market etc.
- ANY ROM update will be available only after OFFICIAL release, through Kies.
Well, xda does pretty good work with optimization, while Android is kept OPEN, not locked, like iOS.
I personally prefer that it will continue this way.
---------- Post added at 06:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:37 PM ----------
lascoul said:
The job of compagnies like SAMSUNG, HTC ... isn't to optimise the OS for they devices? To say that there are more devices is not an apologizes
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
??? Why are you stating that they are not doing this? But, one thing: DO NOT flash everything available here, but just stay with OFFICIALLY released ROM's, via Kies (in case of SGS).
For example: JVR, JVS, JVT ROM's are not officially released, and then any claim that the sys is not optimized is pointless.
Whilst the first post is correct regarding speed and optimisations they fail to realise that Apple have only their own hardware to work on, so they can really work it until its perfectly optimised.
Google have one device to work on, but multiple manufactures use their open source platform using different hardware, so its up to them to optimise the software for their hardware, not google.
You also failed to quote correct hardware specs for the iphone, which has dual core and I believe as much memory as the galaxy s2... So it does sound like your trying to bash android with incorrectly informed arguments.
Just to close the item, and to proof how optimised the IOS is, the recent update, iOS 5, caused vanishing of the music, files, messages, contacts, customised folders and applications for not very small group of users:
Brilliant iOS5 update, example 1
Error 3200 and 3004
3002, 3200, 3194
So, I think that the conclusion may be:
Apple has much more simple way to optimise their sys, because they have much less kind of hardware than Google.
But, Apple is not able to manage even so small amount of the hardware variations, and iPhone CAN go smoothly on its 2 cores CPU (yes, dear OP, read the specs more closely) if Apple will not mess the sys or its update... what just happened.
It's only multitasking problem.suspend and resume of iOS paid off better although you miss some features because of that but on all basic features it way better.
I always wonder why dialer and messaging apps sent out of memory,they should have been kept in memory like browser.
We shouldn't be nagging much about it as things can be done by Android are much more.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
I can't predict the future of course, but it is not unlikely we will see some performance increase with ICS.
I would deem it likely that ICS will use HC's memory manager which is definitely faster than GBs, especially when used with programs that are massive memory hogs. HC's still constantly frees memory it doesn't need to free though ( == waste of cycles), so there is still room for improvement there, let's hope ICS brings it.
Likewise, UI hardware acceleration is already better in HC than it was in GB, and it is rumored to be further improved in ICS. If that is true, ICS devices will likely seem much more fluent. It doesn't actually make them faster, but it will look that way.
In the end, iOS is much more optimized than Android, but ICS should be a good step in the right direction. It will probably not bring the optimization to an iOS level, though.
kaynpayn said:
Yea ios is optimized better. But it also doesn't have many basic features like android. Like a proper customizable homescreen with the ability to chose your launcher (no, lockscreen and an app tray are NOT an homescreen like apple has been trying to sell it), widgets, proper multitask, proper application integration, live wallpapers, lack of an external SD, etc. That makes for a lightweight system. You gain speed but lose features.
That said, granted, android needs to be generic. But as soon as a big company like samsung picks up android and starts developing to one device of their own making, this "1 OS for all devices" gap ceases to exist. Its 1 OS being optimized to a single piece hardware, and they have all they need for proper optimization.
This isn't the same as windows -> 1000 kinds of hardware. Windows comes prepared from Microsoft to run everywhere so that applies. Android doesn't come prepared to run everywhere from google. You can't simply just download and put it on your phone regardless of brand. Has an extra step of preparation from hardware developing companies like HTC or Samsung.
What i'm trying to say is, there is room for optimization. But companies don't care much because they are on a tight schedule on market competition to put out the next big thing, have hardware specs to compensate for poorly optimized coding and in the end stuff works just the same, since most people, sadly, won't notice or care that much for those extra delays/lags.
Can't speak for other brands, but Samsung proved with SGS they don't care much for good coding. The community has been, since its release, improving this phone leaps and bounds and continue to do so even though a successor has shown up.
At the end, companies don't care enough, imo.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Disable to slight extent. I felt that Samsung have done something to the ROMs they provide for SGS. Example the old RFS filesystem, lags like hell in the past but feels good now. Im using RFS instead of EXT4. Still, I have to agree, they don't care much on good coding, new phones are coming up, why bother? The community makes it happen
Apple hires a ton of CPU architects solely for this purpose. Apple prioritizes fluency and optimization above features and openness.
Just a different strategy, no better, no worse.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using xda premium
My mate has the latest iPhone his wife had the SGSII, I had the chance to compare them both side by side last night. What can I say except the SGS is larger, faster, smoother, has more apps, more customisable, the difference is amazing. The iPhone is like
a kiddies toy compared to the SGS.
Remember that the iPhone has been going a lot longer than Android, yet Android had had voice recognition for over a year. Enough said
Sent using TCP/IP
Just a blog re: ICS enabling full hardware acceleration of the GUI. We've all figured it would make our tablets sprint but this is putting things in a new light so I figured I'd post it here.
Linky
I'm sure the programmers and people on top of Android out there knew this. It sort of worries me though. Keeping in mind, Apple is running a totally different system - it sort of makes me respect iOS more so, to know that such a smooth system exists within the limits of 256MB of Memory when we're going upwards of 512MB and still having 'issues'. Don't jump down my throat, I don't want iOS (or an idevice), I'm just sayin'.
Jesus. I've known for a long time that there is something wrong with the way Android accelerates stuff and the whole UI design paradigm, but that's just boneheaded o_o That begs the question though: who made the decision to implement acceleration in such a horrible way and why wasn't it designed properly from the get-go? Anyone who has the slightest experience in OpenGL programming would've been able to tell them they're doing it wrong.
What a stunningly stupid way to implement things.
Just goes to show how much difference it really makes when it comes to having experience in OS development...
I like Android, but this design choice was just... dumb.
FloatingFatMan said:
What a stunningly stupid way to implement things.
Just goes to show how much difference it really makes when it comes to having experience in development...
I like Android, but this design choice was just... dumb.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, there are several shortcomings to Android exactly because of these kinds of brainfarts, like e.g. the permissions system is terribly sketchy and should've received a lot more Q/A. But now that it's released there's little Google can do about it without breaking compatibility as they didn't even plan for it to be extendable.
I do quite like Android, but it's too uneven to really feel professional or trustworthy. I just recently pondered about what I'd want from a future mobile tablet on my Google+ page and while I didn't mention it there, I feel like Win8 would've been in a terrific position for the OS on such a device if they didn't decide to remove traditional desktop from the ARM-version. I know Windows and Microsoft aren't popular here, but they've got a lot more experience with OS-development than Google and are a lot better at power-management design and acceleration of UI and its drivers, plus they've really put some real effort into security lately. Alas, with them scrapping traditional desktop from ARM-version Win8 won't cut it, either.
You guys should read Google's blog post. That article misses one huge point: the trade off. This was far from a bad implementation, it was just a very different one. If you read the article you would know that ios freezes if you hold your finger on screen while loading a large list, Android does not. Android balances the CPU threads for ui display and data processing somewhat equally, while ios grants utter priority to their ui display thread . Basically, if the ui display thread is busy, data processing stops. Android is the winner, it is ios that will now be limited in speed with this configuration until it is optimized for new hardware much like how Android currently works!
autom8r said:
You guys should read Google's blog post. That article misses one huge point: the trade off. This was far from a bad implementation, it was just a very different one. If you read the article you would know that ios freezes if you hold your finger on screen while loading a large list, Android does not. Android balances the CPU threads for ui display and data processing somewhat equally, while ios grants utter priority to their ui display thread . Basically, if the ui display thread is busy, data processing stops. Android is the winner, it is ios that will now be limited in speed with this configuration until it is optimized for new hardware much like how Android currently works!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Uh, it is a bad implementation. You can have both a good implementation AND still balance priority of both the rendering queue and application threads, they are not mutually exclusive.
WereCatf said:
Well, there are several shortcomings to Android exactly because of these kinds of brainfarts, like e.g. the permissions system is terribly sketchy and should've received a lot more Q/A. But now that it's released there's little Google can do about it without breaking compatibility as they didn't even plan for it to be extendable.
I do quite like Android, but it's too uneven to really feel professional or trustworthy. I just recently pondered about what I'd want from a future mobile tablet on my Google+ page and while I didn't mention it there, I feel like Win8 would've been in a terrific position for the OS on such a device if they didn't decide to remove traditional desktop from the ARM-version. I know Windows and Microsoft aren't popular here, but they've got a lot more experience with OS-development than Google and are a lot better at power-management design and acceleration of UI and its drivers, plus they've really put some real effort into security lately. Alas, with them scrapping traditional desktop from ARM-version Win8 won't cut it, either.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If Microsoft is dumb enough to kill desktop mode on ARM, that really destroys the Win8 tablet market outside of running on Intel chips, which puts them at sub-par graphics. I suppose the only hope then is if AMD steps in and I'm not all that much a fan of AMD, though they have tried to make good efforts in the mobile arena with their A-series chips and having decent GPUs.
I suppose I'll keep an eye on this and see what Microsoft does. Given their lack of intelligent decision making of late (ie. far dumber than their normal stupidity), I don't hold out much hope. Pity, Win8 tablets were looking strong, too.
Gnoop said:
If Microsoft is dumb enough to kill desktop mode on ARM, that really destroys the Win8 tablet market outside of running on Intel chips, which puts them at sub-par graphics. I suppose the only hope then is if AMD steps in and I'm not all that much a fan of AMD, though they have tried to make good efforts in the mobile arena with their A-series chips and having decent GPUs.
I suppose I'll keep an eye on this and see what Microsoft does. Given their lack of intelligent decision making of late (ie. far dumber than their normal stupidity), I don't hold out much hope. Pity, Win8 tablets were looking strong, too.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Metro-interface is aimed for touch-based devices, including tablets. Desktop-mode doesn't work too well on such. The problem is that Win8 tablet could serve as BOTH a mobile device AND a desktop computer if Microsoft played its cards right and thus reserve a very nice spot for itself.
WereCatf said:
The Metro-interface is aimed for touch-based devices, including tablets. Desktop-mode doesn't work too well on such. The problem is that Win8 tablet could serve as BOTH a mobile device AND a desktop computer if Microsoft played its cards right and thus reserve a very nice spot for itself.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Indeed. Being able to handle both of those would hook me in pretty easily.
This is just so annoying.
I was playing a game on FPSE during the lunch break. At 13:30, back to work, did not have the opportunity to save my game. Nevermind, I just put the telephone on screen saver / lock screen so that I can continue later, after the work.
...
...
...
Meanwhile I received a text. Fine, I can read it and possibly answer to it... Android is supposed to hadle multitask rather well after all.
...
...
...
Pwned.
After texting, back to FPSE, just to check and make sure that it's still on... Just to notice that the app has been killed by Android...
This is sooo annoying. It's supposed to be mobile phone specialized in gaming. You should be able to interrupt your game to answer a call or a message!!!
I previously owned a Nokia N8 Powered by Symbian^3. It was much much more efficient. Could lauch many apps without worrying of the multitaking. Apps where running in the background, not simply killed by the OS...
Any similar experience to share guys? (or solution, but I doubt there is any...)
What you are experiencing is the brilliant idea of putting a small amount of ram into a android gaming phone (well thought out, Sony). When the ram is low and another app needs to use that ram, Android will automatically kill another app to claim free ram. The problem Android has is it uses Java as the base programming language. The problem with Java is it is a resource hog and totally steals as much ram as possible...see the problem yet? Also, the problem Sony has is that they are stupid.
And now for the reasons. Google choose Java as the base because of its popularity and ease of use for noobs at programming, which is also why there are so many bad apps in the Google Market compared to the iphone. While this was a smart choice for Google at the time to help accelerate their market growth to help catch up with the ios market, it's now a problem they'll always have as a consequence to that choice. To counter this problem of having a horrible base program language android phones constantly needs to have ridiculous specs in order to have comparable performance to the iphone (quad core, gig of ram, phones anyone?).
So there you have it, the core and unavoidable problem with Android. An operating system so inefficient that it warrants quad cores with close to pc specs (That is amazingly bad). So bad that they must've been really high when the folks at Sony thought it was a good idea that a GAMING phone would only need a single core with crap ram. Well played.
So what you are saying is, the entire Android platform is garbage because you made that decision with a garbage phone? Try multitasking on the SG3, then come back. Or, go deal with the fake multitasking of iOS.
you can try supercharger, n use multitasking choice, that's the best multitasking option that i ever try, altough it will makes your free RAM under 70 MB, but multitasking is very great....
DubleJayJ said:
So what you are saying is, the entire Android platform is garbage because you made that decision with a garbage phone? Try multitasking on the SG3, then come back. Or, go deal with the fake multitasking of iOS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All I'm saying is Android is inefficient. This is generally known and Google has been constantly criticized because of it. Going back to my point, this is why manufactures are pushing out quads on their phones.
@cityhunter62
@coreyon
So, why are you even here?
narflynn619 said:
@cityhunter62
@coreyon
So, why are you even here?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I provided information on the problem...? I think a better question would be why are YOU here? You didn't provide anything on this thread.
just wonder if V6 supercharger bulletproof app might help?
Tje great thing about android is that normally there is an app for whatevet you need or a flashable zip or a script ect so it just takes a quick search and abitta time and you could be tip top and there's allways the quick save feature in fpse
Sent from my R800i using xda app-developers app
narflynn619 said:
@cityhunter62
@coreyon
So, why are you even here?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Coreyon answered to my question and I thank him for that. Now I understand why multitasking does not work on Android, or at least on Android phones with few ram. Still, N8 had 256mb ram but handled multitasking perfectly.
Anyway, mathacer and foryou168 gave some advices that might be helpful. I had some answers, that was the point of this thread...
I'm sure I'm not the only one who experienced that kind of problem...
coreyon said:
All I'm saying is Android is inefficient. This is generally known and Google has been constantly criticized because of it. Going back to my point, this is why manufactures are pushing out quads on their phones.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Inefficient because it ran out of RAM? OEM's are pushing for quads because the software and Linux foundation is the most advanced out there. No other mobile is has such supreme multitasking and such a myriad of emulation apps.
Enable zRAM or use a swap partition if you expect this low-RAM device to keep a 32-bit-era console emulator in the background while doing phone functions.
Or get a tablet for gaming. Its still just a smartphone dude.
Or get an iPhone.
Or learn development and help the "horrible android" to be better.
Sent from Xperia Play (R800a) with Tapatalk
Just don't say that android is rubbish,.. it's awesome.. And it's open.. we can customize our phone to our need... that's make it different..
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
Android is insufficient, but on my Galaxy S3 samsungs multitasking is absolutely terrible for 1GB, but now once I flashed the Multitaskingfix I have to say its like multitasking on a 2GB android device, I love it! and in the latest leak (with Multi view, etc) XXELK4 4.1.2 the ram used is almost half of what is used on 4.1.1, Love you samsung! can't say that about Sony, but Xperia play will always be with me until I get use to Touch screen gaming.
For everyone that somehow got offended when I said Android is inefficient, please read on. Android IS inefficient, but that does not mean it's a bad operating system. I personally use it myself. It's certainly better than ios with Apples lockdown. The great positives of Android is that it uses the Linux kernel which is very advanced, and the entire operating system itself is very customizable (partly thanks to java it self).
Now with that said, like I've mentioned I don't know how many times now, it will always have a problem as apps and games become more and more advanced; there will always be the new apps that pushes the hardware to a new level and with the Android overhead will cause it to be slower than it could be. A good example of this is how Minecraft (with its amazingly bad graphics) on the PC needs Crysis-like specs to play with good fps on a PC. That's ridiculous, and it's because the game runs in Java. I know there is Minecraft for Android, but let's be honest it's a very very small map that barely has any of the pc gameplay, otherwise the phone would explode. However, just like Android, even with Minecraft's horrible lag issues it is still an awesome game, and is very easy to customize the game which is also very awesome. Does everyone understand my point now?
CosmicDan said:
Or learn development and help the "horrible android" to be better.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I AM a developer, and I have had the pleasure of struggling with Java's limitation on a multiple array of platforms. I do know what I'm talking about, it's a well known issue.
I'm personally suprised Java is still alive
Thought it would have died years ago because java programs would be slow as molasses/bog down any PC.
So I'm surprised it actually runs decently on phones... tho the phones are more powerful than PCs from a few years ago lol
And yeah, its' the same old cycle.
Software always gets bloated as hardware specs increase so it's tough to get ahead - kinda like how inflation negates pay raises
coreyon said:
I AM a developer, and I have had the pleasure of struggling with Java's limitation on a multiple array of platforms. I do know what I'm talking about, it's a well known issue.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can agree from my experience with Java software, especially the security concerns. I heard a saying: hell is a world where Java is the only programming language. I'm more annoyed by Google trying to do things different and separating itself from Linux standard.
I have to say you are very lucky to present your thoughts here, if this was a Nexus forum all hell would break loose. The Nexus fanboys are relentless.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus
eksasol said:
I can agree from my experience with Java software, especially the security concerns. I heard a saying: hell is a world where Java is the only programming language. I'm more annoyed by Google trying to do things different and separating itself from Linux standard.
I have to say you are very lucky to present your thoughts here, if this was a Nexus forum all hell would break loose. The Nexus fanboys are relentless.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Aha, I should've made a thread for this. This went way off topic from the original purpose of the thread.
JAVA OS?
I thought IOS apps were Java also?
Either way, they have similar "multitasking", except that the programmer can control how an Android app "moves through the states" (ie. from pause when its in background to being killed) so if the FPSE programmers took advantage of the power of Android OS, they could have set the game to do a save as it was killed...
In fact, Android AUTOMATICALLY dumps some of the programs memory when killed involuntarily (the OS needs more RAM) so really, all the programmer needs to do is check to see if there is a bundle already there when the programs oncreate() is (re)called - if so, then resume!
developer[dot]android[dot]com/training/basics/activity-lifecycle/recreating.html
For the record I hate Java, and more so - ECLIPSE (Java IDE that was also itself made in Java) makes me want to shoot myself in the face whilst listening to Enya and letting spiders crawl on my testicles.
Hicsy said:
I thought IOS apps were Java also?
Either way, they have similar "multitasking", except that the programmer can control how an Android app "moves through the states" (ie. from pause when its in background to being killed) so if the FPSE programmers took advantage of the power of Android OS, they could have set the game to do a save as it was killed...
In fact, Android AUTOMATICALLY dumps some of the programs memory when killed involuntarily (the OS needs more RAM) so really, all the programmer needs to do is check to see if there is a bundle already there when the programs oncreate() is (re)called - if so, then resume!
developer[dot]android[dot]com/training/basics/activity-lifecycle/recreating.html
For the record I hate Java, and more so - ECLIPSE (Java IDE that was also itself made in Java) makes me want to shoot myself in the face whilst listening to Enya and letting spiders crawl on my testicles.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't touch ios even with a 50 foot pole, but I'm pretty sure ios apps don't use Java. Even if they did, the core operating system doesn't, and that's enough to make a huge impact difference in performance.
I heard about some developer porting Android to C+. By passing all those legal issues with Microsoft, if Android ran on C+ wouldn't it fix all the lag much like Project Butter has and evidently fixed the incredible RAM usage by the device?