Database Users

HTC Plus

Find this from other forum. Work fine on my HTC Trinity.

More screenshot

oh its taing too much of real estate My screen area!

Does it support VGA?

Backlight working ?
Does the backlight button work with this release ? In the other version your device will freeze at bootup....anyone tested already ?
btw: seems to be the same version like in the other post....
Cheers
Edit:
Could not wait Just installed, no problems on my device (Artemis) and Backlight-button. Looks cool.
What i don't like: in the GUI-Config you can only add apps from the Programs-directory (for example: when you want to add solitaire (which is stored in "Games"), you need to move the shortcut into the Programs-Folder....or you need to add the registry-key in HKCU\Software\HTC\HTCPlus\Shortcuts manually....or am i wrong ?
But in the end.... i think i stay with HTC Home....

Works on Artemis?!
petervbeck said:
Just installed, no problems on my device (Artemis) and Backlight-button. Looks cool.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's interenting that you had no problems. I also installed on my Artemis with official HTC Asia WM6 rom and yes, it works until you switch off the device. Than you can never switch it on again, only by soft reset with stylus!
So I uninstalled the prog quickly...
Otherwise it would be nice to have it on Today screen, so if someone could construct a bug-free cab from the extracted files I would really welcome it!
cheers

Anybody tried this on a Touch?
The "other" Version (as petervbeck says) in the Hermes Forum doesn't work on the Touch.

I doesn't work on my Touch!

Working on Wizard
HTC Plus is Working on Wizard!
just 2 bugs:
when you select battery status in Customization and you tab on the symbol you go to wifi settings and backlight is not working
steph

ctibor said:
It's interenting that you had no problems. I also installed on my Artemis with official HTC Asia WM6 rom and yes, it works until you switch off the device. Than you can never switch it on again, only by soft reset with stylus!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm using Tom's 4.1 full and as i said, no problems. But in fact- i like HTC Home more, but that's my opinion.... on my device i had no problem with hanging boots or something similar, i tested all the buttons....but not for a long time...then i switched back to HTC home...that's my expirience with Plus..
Cheers

How about a little credit where credit is due? This is the same version I posted in the Hermes forum here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=326689
Today I posted an updated version that should help some people who had problems with it.
This tool was non-functional when I found it. I had to dissassemble the dlls to find out why the utility would not work (missing HTCImgCodec.dll).
fluxist

Thanks! Keep the great work!
fluxist said:
How about a little credit where credit is due? This is the same version I posted in the Hermes forum here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=326689
Today I posted an updated version that should help some people who had problems with it.
This tool was non-functional when I found it. I had to dissassemble the dlls to find out why the utility would not work (missing HTCImgCodec.dll).
fluxist
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

I just installed your cab on my mogul. It works great. But I decide to keep using HTC Home.
fluxist said:
How about a little credit where credit is due? This is the same version I posted in the Hermes forum here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=326689
Today I posted an updated version that should help some people who had problems with it.
This tool was non-functional when I found it. I had to dissassemble the dlls to find out why the utility would not work (missing HTCImgCodec.dll).
fluxist
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Is the "aplication launching pad" of HTC plus finger-scrollable, or the only way to scroll is by tapping on the arrow?
TIA

Can anyone confirm that it uses less memory than HTC Home?

fluxist said:
How about a little credit where credit is due? This is the same version I posted in the Hermes forum here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=326689
Today I posted an updated version that should help some people who had problems with it.
This tool was non-functional when I found it. I had to dissassemble the dlls to find out why the utility would not work (missing HTCImgCodec.dll).
fluxist
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
fluxist
nobody seems to answered earlier question, does this support vga?
cheers

how do you remove HTC plus!? I like it but it freezes my PPC6700 sometimes. I don't use it but I cannot remove it from the today settings menu. Thanks

I do not know if this plugin supports VGA. If you have a VGA device, try it out and let us know.
fluxist

not working in my Touch......
please help me out....

pranavd1980 said:
not working in my Touch......
please help me out....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same, just adds a menu to my today settings, but no new today screen

Manila 3d on Touch?

Hi folks,
i saw some threads in the development section for manila 2d (which really looks cool). I'm wondering if this works on my HTC Touch!? I'm also not sure if there is a cab install version available - or is a rom flash needed (don't want to do that again...)
has anybody already some experiance with manila 2d?
thanks for any information!

you'll notice that there's a thread a few posts down with the Title "touchFLO 2D on ELF" this is the same thing as Manila 2D. It's a simple cab install and works just fine.

Just try it you will love it.

Looks good, but it doesn't work as it should. On my Elfin Audio Mgr 2 doesn't start, system runs veeery slowly even after uninstalling TF2D (hard reset helps) and cable is causing system freeze :/

just tried it and it really looks cool! It works without any problems...
Sad thing is, that its not working together with any other today plugins...

Install SecondToday:
http://www.chi-tai.info/cs_wm_tools_im_cs.htm

nuke1 said:
Install SecondToday:
http://www.chi-tai.info/cs_wm_tools_im_cs.htm
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah thats really cool! I have mapped the app to my camera button and so i can switch very fast - perfekt

Touchflow 3D
I also have some problems with this panel, after I installed it to my Xperia I have serious problems, it's look great but it's very slow and after open a few other panels my phone just block, I've to reset the Xperia and then I can go on, so I deside to uninstall it but now way it stay's, and after looking in my installed programms it is gone??? I can't uninstall it and I suppose that the only sollution could be a factory restore. I'ts a pitty it don't work like it should be cause I find it a great interface so if anyone could give us some advise they're welcome. I did install the second little program tf3d_panel but even that bring it to full speed and error free

manila on htc touch hd
As the title says, i run on my htc touch hd. where can i find a tutorial on how to install manila on this kind of phone step-by-step ? (tutorial for noobs as you may say) I am totally away from this phone technology and i've found a lot of posts but for htc touch and not touch hd. i want to know which files i must install, where i find them and how can i change the theme. Please, help a noob

Atharia said:
As the title says, i run on my htc touch hd. where can i find a tutorial on how to install manila on this kind of phone step-by-step ? (tutorial for noobs as you may say) I am totally away from this phone technology and i've found a lot of posts but for htc touch and not touch hd. i want to know which files i must install, where i find them and how can i change the theme. Please, help a noob
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Atharia,
Just as nobody has replied and I don't want you to be left in the dark
Have you checked anything in the blackstone forum? That would be a more appropriate place for you to be searching. I understand you may have search for HTC Touch, and that would probabaly be why you came here.
On the other hand though, I think you're phone may actually come with what had been ported to this phone - don't quote me on that but I am sure that it had touchflo as standard?
Stu

Where are the programs?

Hi guys,
Ive downloaded Touch-ITs very good touch flo and so started to download other programs. So far ive done the keyboard and that works a treat.
Problem is ive downloaded the mp3 trimmer and social network engine installed them but cant find them anywhere...how do i access them? can these be used as tabs on the touchflo screen as i really like the interface?

x1fan said:
Hi guys,
Ive downloaded Touch-ITs very good touch flo and so started to download other programs. So far ive done the keyboard and that works a treat.
Problem is ive downloaded the mp3 trimmer and social network engine installed them but cant find them anywhere...how do i access them? can these be used as tabs on the touchflo screen as i really like the interface?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
mp3trimmer already comes WITH itje's rom. no need to install it again. which "social network engine" are you talking about?
you'll find all programs if you click "start" (upper left) and then "all programs" (lower left).

I used this thread http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=442154 to get the cabs and installed them. Cant find the option to trim MP3s at all. and i downloaded the Touch-It Blackstone Social Network engine. Any ideas?
Im hoping that by downloading the engine that the social networking sites would pop up under the internet tab where youtube is...you know where i mean?

oh, my mistake. you installed the cab and not his rom with manila cooked in...
okay, i'm sorry, but i never used stock rom with manila-cab. but i can tell you this:
- manila works best if cooked in, use a custom rom (i.e. itje's touch-it v.10. but there are many good roms, have a look in the rom-developing-part)
- the cab you used is from november 2008, there's a newer version out now
- "social engine": never saw it in the internet tab, it connects your contacts with a corresponding facebook-friend.
so, bottom line:
programs should show where i told you above, even in the cab i think. and: manila as a cab is slow, cooked-in it flies these days.

caliban2 said:
oh, my mistake. you installed the cab and not his rom with manila cooked in...
okay, i'm sorry, but i never used stock rom with manila-cab. but i can tell you this:
- manila works best if cooked in, use a custom rom (i.e. itje's touch-it v.10. but there are many good roms, have a look in the rom-developing-part)
- the cab you used is from november 2008, there's a newer version out now
- "social engine": never saw it in the internet tab, it connects your contacts with a corresponding facebook-friend.
so, bottom line:
programs should show where i told you above, even in the cab i think. and: manila as a cab is slow, cooked-in it flies these days.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am LOST, however up for installing whatever makes it run that little bit smoother! I like the look of manila i am using now but if there is an upto date one then i can give that a go.
I havent found the ROM you suggested but will keep looking, the first thread i came across (the main one) seems to have the download links removed, any ideas?
Thanks so far mate, youve been a star

Ahhhh think i have found the ROM now just waiting for the file to download now for the installation...

Trying to enter bootlegger mode and all im getting is the coloured screen, try to connect to PC but doesnt do anything, just stuck on coloured screen.....

x1fan said:
Trying to enter bootlegger mode and all im getting is the coloured screen, try to connect to PC but doesnt do anything, just stuck on coloured screen.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
typing this from my mobile, so to keep it short:
- you need to apply "hard-spl" first to flash a custom rom (it's a sticky)
- if you're flashing itje's v.10.2, be aware that there is a bug for some people with sending sms. i NEVER had it though. also you'll need to apply 2 or 3 fixes.
- READ READ READ!
if you're going to flash ANY custom rom you'll have to learn a lot. "just install and everything's perfect" won't work. and everytime you flash a new rom you'll loose all data on your phone, so make backup first!!!
if you're willing to get into this - do it. it's worth it and it will really improve your x1. if you want to have everything working out of the box with many restrictions - apple makes such a device...

Ill let you know how i get on, im just loading 10.2 now so we shall see

x1fan said:
Ill let you know how i get on, im just loading 10.2 now so we shall see
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
have fun then.
hope you did a backup of your data - if not, don't come yelling if it's all gone...
edit: the fixes needed
since the thread on v10 is pretty much to read (it started as v7...), for starters the 3 fixes needed with this version.
- Advanced Network (found in itje's first post, under the dl-link for the rom itself)
- "v10.2_corrected_highlights.zip" (also posted by itje, somewhere in the thread, search for it)
extract the files in these two zips to your \windows-directory (on your x1) with total commander (comes with the rom)
- v10.2_smaberg_1_percent_battery.cab (install normally. this fixes a bug that the battery-meter always shows 100% full. alternatively you could install another icon-set from this forum. watch out if they're for WinMob 6.1 or 6.5 though!)
the cooked-in build of opera mobile 9.5 doesn't work with the hardware-keyboard of xperia. either install build 16194 (iit's from an official x1-rom) or try opera mobile 9.7 beta.
every other question you should ask in the thread of the rom you've chosen.
this should set you up, from here on it's all tweaking, lots of reading, learning and adding apps to your likeness.

i have a problem like this one: i installed the touch it manila cab and then i installed the touch it htc album but... i cannot find the program... what do i have to do?
EDIT: ok i found two exe files in the windows folder wich are : HTCAlbum.exe and AlbumSearch.exe, and when i run each of them i have HTC Album... btw the problem is that i have no text in the menus... what may be the problem?

Thanks for all the advice guys...im installed and up and running and so far so good, no issues at all, the sms seems to be working fine etc.
Ill apply the fixes as noted so far as and when i come across the issues!
Cheers again all

caliban2 said:
- v10.2_smaberg_1_percent_battery.cab (install normally. this fixes a bug that the battery-meter always shows 100% full. alternatively you could install another icon-set from this forum. watch out if they're for WinMob 6.1 or 6.5 though!)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I cant find this CAB

jup, sometimes the search function takes getting used to... here you go.

caliban2 said:
jup, sometimes the search function takes getting used to... here you go.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mate i looked everywhere, searched forums and then even threads but couldnt locate the cab, im slowly getting used to the site and where to find things so hopefully wont be pestering too much soon
Thanks again

-=W1S3=- said:
i have a problem like this one: i installed the touch it manila cab and then i installed the touch it htc album but... i cannot find the program... what do i have to do?
EDIT: ok i found two exe files in the windows folder wich are : HTCAlbum.exe and AlbumSearch.exe, and when i run each of them i have HTC Album... btw the problem is that i have no text in the menus... what may be the problem?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
still nothing for my missing menus text problem?

using tf3d and mobile shell

http://forum.xda-developers.com/show...postcount=1509
this method does not seem to work on my Imagio, if anyone else has another way to run both tf3d and ms3.5 at the same time, please post your method and in the mean time i am trying figure out a good way myself.
*dont know why the link isnt working but its in the development and hacking area of the forums

Why would you wanna run both at the same time anyway? They serve same purpose but has only different useability and UI. And running both of them would probably eat alot of RAM too..

tf3d has gps based weather and spb has customizable widgets, i dont need to run both at the same time but i would like the main today screen to be tf3 and be able to switch to mobile shell at the touch of a button.

mygraine said:
tf3d has gps based weather and spb has customizable widgets, i dont need to run both at the same time but i would like the main today screen to be tf3 and be able to switch to mobile shell at the touch of a button.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i agree... this would be sweet. i love some of the tf3d interface but it is boring. gray backgrounds and unable to chnge them?

mygrain, the link you posted didnt work. can you direct me to the correct link which talks about having both TF3D and SPB MS3.5 running

slumpey326 said:
mygrain, the link you posted didnt work. can you direct me to the correct link which talks about having both TF3D and SPB MS3.5 running
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
didnt work for me either.. 404 not found

Through a combination of TF3D Detacher and the Xperia X1 Panels, I'm running TF3D, Titanium, and the X1 home screen. I'm about to try adding MS 3.5 to the mix.

Kebero said:
Through a combination of TF3D Detacher and the Xperia X1 Panels, I'm running TF3D, Titanium, and the X1 home screen. I'm about to try adding MS 3.5 to the mix.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
screen shots please?
and of course info on how to do it.
I really, really want to use titanium but keep the manila's contacts pice so i can use the faccebook integration

CDODGE said:
screen shots please?
and of course info on how to do it.
I really, really want to use titanium but keep the manila's contacts pice so i can use the faccebook integration
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ok, i found this but it does not say it will work with mobile 6.5.. is this tha app you are using?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=480475
if so i am going to be the happiest person alive

Kebero said:
Through a combination of TF3D Detacher and the Xperia X1 Panels, I'm running TF3D, Titanium, and the X1 home screen. I'm about to try adding MS 3.5 to the mix.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I couldn't add MS 3.5. The information on TF3D Detacher and the X1 panels are all over this forum, a quick search should pull up everything you need. I don't have any screen shots at the moment, mainly because I just did a hard reset and am running straight MS 3.5 (I'm OCD and will keep hard resetting until I get exactly what I want).

Looking for a few more things...

I just got the TP2 for USCC last week. (WM6.5) I haven't used WM in about 2 years and am pretty dissapointed to find a lot of the same issues that were present then. I used to be a fairly competent WM user with above average knowledge in registry editing, ROM flashing, etc but most of what I used to use seems to have changed. So far I have found the fixes for the sms sent notification and the organization of the contact list by last name, first to first, last.
I've been all over these forums and cannot find a fix to disable the onscreen keyboard from auto-popping...ever. Also, in the sound settings menu, there is a slider to adjust ringer volume and another to adjust system volume yet these two don't work independently. I want system volume loud for hearing things like my IM app that runs in the background yet have the ringer volume lower as it's over bearing on full.
Something else I have noticed is that some settings menus appear to be there but not functioning. For instance, under settings>all settings>today there is a 2nd tab for items that does not change from the appearance tab. I've notice several menu's like this throughout the phone. It seems like there are things that other versions of WM may have had that this doesn't or simply that Microsoft/HTC got lazy in the initial release and either did not remove tabs that were not intended to be there or forgot to finish some that should. Just wondering if anyone has some insight into this.
I'm also looking for a good free IM client. I've seen many apps across these forums but with so many out there, it's hard to find the right one for me. I refuse to pay $45 for Agile messenger (although I've seen hacked versions but I would prefer not to deal with that). It's a decent app, not great but decent but $45 for a very simple app is outrageous. So, I found Slick ( http://slick.en.softonic.com/windowsmobile ) which is a free app and works great! The only feature it is missing that I liked about Agile is a notification (similar to the annoying sms message sent notification that I removed) while the app is in standby. Does anyone know of another free IM app that is simple and has that feature? I only use Google Talk and have noticed some apps specifically for that but there are so many to try, I'm hoping someone has a good recommendation to save me some time.
The last thing I'm curious about pertains to Manila. I see Manila all over these forums. I've done some reading on it and have a good understanding of what manila is. But, it's very confusing as some thread talk about reflashing ROMS for it and others talk about installing cabs over your current rom for it. Does anyone have a link to a good thread(s) that will explain things more clearly so I can make an educated decision on the best way to try this out? A, Manila for Dummies, if you will.
Thanks in advance for any help!
Edit: It looks like the "Manila" Touch Flo design is incorporated in WM 6.5 on my device already? Is this mainly the custom tabs located at the bottom of the today screen?

CeLlgUy said:
...to disable the onscreen keyboard from auto-popping...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's an option to disable "Auto Deploy SIP" in Advanced Configuration Tool.
CeLlgUy said:
... Also, in the sound settings menu, there is a slider to adjust ringer volume and another to adjust system volume yet these two don't work independently....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Go to "Settings" tab, tap "Sound", turn off "Single Volume Control".
CeLlgUy said:
... under settings>all settings>today there is a 2nd tab for items that does not change from the appearance tab....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First of all, TF3D/TouchFlo3d, Manila, or Sense are essentially the same thing. It's a skin designed by HTC to cover up WinMo. You may say it's actualy just a very elaborate Today screen plugin. Since it takes up the whole screen, you would not be able to add other items.
CeLlgUy said:
... I'm also looking for a good free IM client....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No comment. I use MSN Messenger. See if other can help you out here.
CeLlgUy said:
... A, Manila for Dummies, if you will....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See above for a crude definition. There are many versions, so that's why there's so much discussion in these forums about them. People are trying to use versions that didn't come stock with their devices.
TF2D or Manila 2D - for budget devices like the Touch Vivo, Touch Cruise, etc
TF3D v1 - originally came on the Touch Diamond and Touch Pro
TF3D v2- came with the Touch Diamond 2 and our Touch Pro2.
TF3D v2.1 - came with the release of the official WinMo 6.5 ROM for the Touch Diamond2 and our Touch Pro2. Identifiable with the weather under the clock in the Home tab.
TF3D v2.5 - came with the release of the Touch HD2. Has customizable shortcuts on the Home tab, revamped People tab, coverflow-like Pictures tab and Music tab when in landscape, and other goodies.
Btw, going forward, you may want to list out what you're asking in bullet point form. Most people are put off by long essay-like posts. You'll get more responses if your post is clear and short.

ohyeahar said:
There's an option to disable "Auto Deploy SIP" in Advanced Configuration Tool.
Go to "Settings" tab, tap "Sound", turn off "Single Volume Control".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can't believe I missed that one, thanks.
First of all, TF3D/TouchFlo3d, Manila, or Sense are essentially the same thing. It's a skin designed by HTC to cover up WinMo. You may say it's actualy just a very elaborate Today screen plugin. Since it takes up the whole screen, you would not be able to add other items.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was just using that particular option as an example of a menu that is present but cannot be accessed.
See above for a crude definition. There are many versions, so that's why there's so much discussion in these forums about them. People are trying to use versions that didn't come stock with their devices.
TF2D or Manila 2D - for budget devices like the Touch Vivo, Touch Cruise, etc
TF3D v1 - originally came on the Touch Diamond and Touch Pro
TF3D v2- came with the Touch Diamond 2 and our Touch Pro2.
TF3D v2.1 - came with the release of the official WinMo 6.5 ROM for the Touch Diamond2 and our Touch Pro2. Identifiable with the weather under the clock in the Home tab.
TF3D v2.5 - came with the release of the Touch HD2. Has customizable shortcuts on the Home tab, revamped People tab, coverflow-like Pictures tab and Music tab when in landscape, and other goodies.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That actually clears it up quite a bit. So it appears that my CDMA TP2 with USCC is actually 2.1 or 2.5? I see you stated our TP2 is is 2.1 but your description of 2.5 seems to fit my phone. Either way, it looks like I can just addon on any Manila Cabs that customize the home screen more as Manila is already installed?
Btw, going forward, you may want to list out what you're asking in bullet point form. Most people are put off by long essay-like posts. You'll get more responses if your post is clear and short.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry about that, I was reading though forums for about 2 hours after the bar last night when I typed all of that. I tend to get a bit winded when I'm intoxicated.

CeLlgUy said:
I was just using that particular option as an example of a menu that is present but cannot be accessed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Where else are there menu options that doesn't look like they belong? Anyway, if there are, then it's because of Microsoft and not HTC. We're on WinMo is on version 6.5 now, but it really hasn't changed much since I first used a pocket PC back in 2000.
CeLlgUy said:
Either way, it looks like I can just addon on any Manila Cabs that customize the home screen more as Manila is already installed?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Certainly, there are components that are possible to install via cabs. But often, you'll need to flash a ROM with the particular build of Manila that you want to get those features.

So just to clear this up, if something is made for TF3D v2, it should (or might) work with our CDMA TP2 running the stock @M6.5 rom?

Also, anyone have a fix for the keyboard thing? I remembered the name of the cab i used to use, null keyboard but can't find anything that works with this rom. I've tried a few reg edits that have not worked.

CeLlgUy said:
So just to clear this up, if something is made for TF3D v2, it should (or might) work with our CDMA TP2 running the stock @M6.5 rom?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It should, yes. However, if you have a TP2 with WM 6.5 you most likely have Manila 2.1 (in my case 2.1.191937). If you go to the Settings tab and scroll down, you should be able to see which version you have. That being said, many cabs work on all versions, a good few has to have a more specific version (like 2.0, 2.1 or 2.5) and a mere handful needs to be spot on (e.g. 2.1.1717).
After installing such a CAB you often need to restart your TF3D/Manila/Sense, and to do so you go to Start > Settings > Today and tick off HTC Sense. Tap OK and go back in to tick the HTC Sense box again. That restarts your TF3D.
Hope that made sense.

Thx for the clarification, I think I'm ready to start customizing this thing! I'm a bit hesitant as I really like alot of the features that come with the stock home screen. My last windows device was the 8125 and I modded the **** out of that home screen but this one I simply want to add a few highlights without loosing the over all look.
One thing I have been curious about is if there is a way to put a google search bar under the calendar. I know Google apps will put one up but then I have to go to my programs tab and open google apps so I might as well just eliminate a step and open opera.

I haven't checked to be honest with you, but I am satisfied with moving the internet tab a few notches closer to the home screen tab. I find that to be quick and easy enough! One tab on the tab and the google search is at the top of the screen.

Thanks for all the help! You gave me the tools I needed to dive back in. I understand the differences in Manila's now as I've flashed about 5 or 6 different roms. 2.5 is slick in theory, especially when Dusk Evolution v2.0 is theme is added but I had to return to 2.1. Thanks again for the help to get me started.

Im client look at PalRingo.. it's pretty awesome and covers most major networks (yahoo, MSN, gmail, facebook chat, icq others.

Yes, that's what I currently use. Kind of an old thread now too. I've come a long way since I started this thread.