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Hello Xda
i am wondering are we can able to upgrade to windows mobile 6.5 in the future and windows mobile 7 too.
also can we will be able to use multi touch function on hd device?
Well on past models HTC have released new ROMs with newer version of WM, so you would think they would release new updated ROMs for the HD.
Unless they have another new phone on the horizon! You would think they would wanna sell 1 or 2 HD's first though before they release another 'high end' handset.
Philio25 said:
Well on past models HTC have released new ROMs with newer version of WM, so you would think they would release new updated ROMs for the HD.
Unless they have another new phone on the horizon! You would think they would wanna sell 1 or 2 HD's first though before they release another 'high end' handset.
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You would think so wouldn't you but then there was not much time between the diamond/Pro & the HD!
tingsagwaan said:
You would think so wouldn't you but then there was not much time between the diamond/Pro & the HD!
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Click to collapse
Yer was very close, I heard mixed reviews of the Diamond/Pro so held of upgrading, then the HD popped up on the HTC website so waited for the HD instead!
winmo 7 is said to have hardware requirement of 256MB ROM for the OS. so should be fine.
WinMo 6.5 will probably be less than 256MB ROM too so all go there too.
TOUCH HD should be well future-proofed for WinMo updates (official or otherwise), and then there's the possibility of Android too......
I think and hope that they will release at least an update to winmo 6.5 But I also think you shouldn't hope for Multitouch! If i'm not totally wrong the HD use a resisitiv Touchscreen and they are all not cabable of Multitouch, doesn't matter which Firmware is running
There is supposed to be a pre-WM7 release, not sure what else is included but supposedly it will have a better version of the IE browser.
I imagine this may depends on how much WM7 will be a change and needs adjustment from HTC. Like... what will be the touch 3D layer then ?
My bet is, the more we are expecting from WM7 as a breaktthrough in the series the less me may use it on this version of the Touch HD.
Eitum said:
I think and hope that they will release at least an update to winmo 6.5 But I also think you shouldn't hope for Multitouch! If i'm not totally wrong the HD use a resisitiv Touchscreen and they are all not cabable of Multitouch, doesn't matter which Firmware is running
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Click to collapse
Actually, correct me if I'm wrong here, but resistive technology is able to detect multiple touches - and even laptop trackpads can too, it's just that there's never been any software developed for it, and the operating system has just been hard coded to ignore multiple touch points and averaged them out to somewhere in the middle of where touched.It's pretty much a case of trackpad and touchscreen designers going "hmm what about if someone touches with two points at the same time? Ah well, there's no reason for doing that, let's just average it out"
Now, more realistically speaking, what exactly is the benefit of multi-touch on a mobile operating system? Pinch zooming? The zoom bar on Opera seems pretty simple and actually easier to use to me! Anything else? New Macbooks use gestures for Expose (no use for that on a mobile), two finger scrolling (about the only day-to-day useful feature, but again useless on a mobile device with finger scrolling anyway!) Two finger rotating maybe (um, accelerometer does that for you!) so anybody got any more suggestions for making this gimmick actually useable on a portable device that can't do it better already?
How can you play an instrument like a keyboard without multi touch!
While such a functionality might be an intesting one, it also seems like a step backwards in certain aspects.
Single handed operation is one of the essential aspects of mobile phones.
chaosdefinesorder said:
Actually, correct me if I'm wrong here, but resistive technology is able to detect multiple touches
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would be fine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3Owgcos_KY
multi-touch on windows mobile on HTC diamond.....just not in the way you may expect.
chaosdefinesorder said:
Actually, correct me if I'm wrong here, but resistive technology is able to detect multiple touches - and even laptop trackpads can too, it's just that there's never been any software developed for it, and the operating system has just been hard coded to ignore multiple touch points and averaged them out to somewhere in the middle of where touched.It's pretty much a case of trackpad and touchscreen designers going "hmm what about if someone touches with two points at the same time? Ah well, there's no reason for doing that, let's just average it out"
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Click to collapse
No correction needed, this is 100% true. Touchscreens do not register clicks, or anything similar, the screen itself is nothing but a sensor. The screen sensor layer on the HD screen registers any surface part of the screen on which the pressure exceeds a given threshold and the output is translated by a driver into anything the OS uses for manipulation. Thus, theoretically, ANY touchscreen device can be multitouch.
chaosdefinesorder said:
Now, more realistically speaking, what exactly is the benefit of multi-touch on a mobile operating system? Pinch zooming? The zoom bar on Opera seems pretty simple and actually easier to use to me! Anything else? New Macbooks use gestures for Expose (no use for that on a mobile), two finger scrolling (about the only day-to-day useful feature, but again useless on a mobile device with finger scrolling anyway!) Two finger rotating maybe (um, accelerometer does that for you!) so anybody got any more suggestions for making this gimmick actually useable on a portable device that can't do it better already?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Many of the more objective iPhone users have indicated that multitouch should not be overrated. It is nice for picture viewing, but in practical terms such as with a browser, it can be frustrating to see people zooming in to 100% with a swift doubletap while the iPhone users themselves are having to place two fingers on the screen, prevent accidentally using your nails, and having to squeeze/pinch until the page looks right.
BUT... I for one believe that more natural forms of input, i.e. a Keyboard, REQUIRES multitouch to function 100% intuitively. You simply do not need to release your finger from one key in order to press another, and a singletouch screen does require this. This causes lots of mistakes when typing too fast, you have to be over-articulate while typing.
Then again, I see most iPhone users typing with one thumb even when sitting down and holding the phone with both hands, because it's their first smartphone Not fair... WinMo pro's should have received this years ago
Oops I am straying from objectivity here...
Windows mobile 7 prebeta video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-i2jHEFdD4
Muhamed said:
Windows mobile 7 prebeta video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-i2jHEFdD4
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Click to collapse
No it's not.
^ The interface looks new and cool...If its not WM 7...then what is it?
Nara-e-Mastana said:
^ The interface looks new and cool...If its not WM 7...then what is it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
from the youtube video info:
Device: HTC Touch (elf)
Skin name: Windows Mobile 7 i3
(i3 = 3 interface)
Skin version: QVGA
was it really that hard to read? the info was RIGHT THERE.
where to find
Out of curiosity where do we find this skin? all I can find is that youtube video. At the moment I'm getting a little bored with my current ROM and right now am looking for a new replacement look on my vogue.
chaosdefinesorder said:
Actually, correct me if I'm wrong here, but resistive technology is able to detect multiple touches - and even laptop trackpads can too, it's just that there's never been any software developed for it, and the operating system has just been hard coded to ignore multiple touch points and averaged them out to somewhere in the middle of where touched.It's pretty much a case of trackpad and touchscreen designers going "hmm what about if someone touches with two points at the same time? Ah well, there's no reason for doing that, let's just average it out"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just another confirmation of this. Synaptics, the maker of most touchpads for laptops, released driver updates for laptops to include multi-touch pinching, gestures, zooming, and Chiral(circular) scrolling - These were for touchpads that could previous only do what WinMo does with multiple touches.
So, as everyone said, you're right. If the manufacturers wanted to, they *could* give us multi-touch, but WinMo doesn't have an implementation of that anyway so it's useless.
http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archive/2007/05/04/dogfood-doesn-t-always-taste-good.aspx
chaosdefinesorder said:
(...)
so anybody got any more suggestions for making this gimmick actually useable on a portable device that can't do it better already?
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specially for hd which has almost no hardware buttons multitouch would be a nice feature videogame-wise... like shooting while running or steering while accelerating...
btw check out the blackstone rom development forum a custom rom with winmo6.5 beta has been released already. Just for testing purposes only though.
Hi to all of those Leo owners.
Is it true that there is no stylus with the Leo?
I have large fingers and the built in stylus (eg like that of the Diamond2) is a must.
And there is no second camera for video calling?
I also use this feature and it is not on this phone.
I know many are saying the Leo is a great phone but without these 2 features it seems sadly lacking.
It would be nice if it also came with an 8 megapixel or more camera.
What do you guys think?
Aussie
just shut up, and don`t buy it, and never ever visit this part of xda ok?
Hey,
jep thats correct ... no stylus and no second video cam for conference calls.
but there was a link for an stylus on the web, that can used with the capacitive screen.
regards
I don't care about video calls and I WANT device with capacitive (and large) screen. So HD2 is simply exactly what I want. If it is not for you, I agree with previous poster, even if I don't approve on his style.
20mihalko said:
just shut up, and don`t buy it, and never ever visit this part of xda ok?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
...lol... ^^
To be fair, read the specs. It tells you EXACTLY what you need to know. There are enough reviews of the device out now, to know exactly what it has.
aussie1234 said:
Hi to all of those Leo owners.
Is it true that there is no stylus with the Leo?
I have large fingers and the built in stylus (eg like that of the Diamond2) is a must.
And there is no second camera for video calling?
I also use this feature and it is not on this phone.
I know many are saying the Leo is a great phone but without these 2 features it seems sadly lacking.
It would be nice if it also came with an 8 megapixel or more camera.
What do you guys think?
Aussie
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is no use for a stylus with a capacitive screen. The only thing that you are really giving up is the ability to use notepad, which I use quite a bit.
As for the second camera... it would be nice, but oh well
Thanks for the feedback
Hi again
Thanks for the constructive feedback. The other feedback just shows how anal some of you are.
Some sellers in my country sell the Leo with a stylus. But the specs and reviews say there is none. Scouring the net shows a few expressing their disappointment with the lack of stylus which helps with apps that require precision tapping or touching (eg Spreadsheets, games etc) or for those who just have large fingers.
Perhaps those who have told me to just "shut up" and not to "visit xda" should follow their own advice if they have nothing constructive to add.
Dont forget to burp your Leo.
Cheers
Aussie
Just ignore 'em.
My Leo didn't come with a stylus, and it doesn't have video call either. I too have large fingers so I am a bit annoyed, but I'll live
Thank you
Chainfire said:
Just ignore 'em.
My Leo didn't come with a stylus, and it doesn't have video call either. I too have large fingers so I am a bit annoyed, but I'll live
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the feedback.
How is the smoothness and precision when navigating around the phone without a stylus?
I have used the iphone and found that very smooth. Is the Leo also as easy?
Cheers
Aussie
aussie1234 said:
Thanks for the feedback.
How is the smoothness and precision when navigating around the phone without a stylus?
I have used the iphone and found that very smooth. Is the Leo also as easy?
Cheers
Aussie
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't have an iPhone so it's hard to compare. I do have an iPod which I have used an awesome 3 times. Compared to what I remember, it's control is a bit better. The Leo screen is very sensitive. Looking at it almost makes stuff happen There's a fix that lowers the sensitivity around here though, but I have not tried that out yet. As it is, without fix, typing accurately is a real pain. I would have much prefered if it had came with a capacitive stylus, as HTC does make those...
Chainfire said:
I don't have an iPhone so it's hard to compare. I do have an iPod which I have used an awesome 3 times. Compared to what I remember, it's control is a bit better. The Leo screen is very sensitive. Looking at it almost makes stuff happen There's a fix that lowers the sensitivity around here though, but I have not tried that out yet. As it is, without fix, typing accurately is a real pain. I would have much prefered if it had came with a capacitive stylus, as HTC does make those...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Someone should really make a thought control program for the HD2 then there would be no need for fingers or styluses at all
The capacative styluses on ebay are very competant especially for hand written notes or navigating around windows explorers. I wouldnt advise trimming them down though as I decided to do one night to see if a more precise point could be made, I guess the styluses need a certain surface area making contact with the screen which is probably why they are made like that HAHA.
Ohh well at least I have 1 left which works well on my ipod touch so it should be fine with my HD2.. IF IT EVER ARRIVES!!
mskip said:
Someone should really make a thought control program for the HD2 then there would be no need for fingers or styluses at all
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that control program is allready made, you can enable pinch to zoom in every application, so if you have problems tapping on some small button, you can zoom in... it is pretty usefull, but i never used it for example in explorer... i don`t have any problems clicking anywhere
The lack of stylus is a bit of a problem (Especially considering the fact I use many spreadsheet files).
The more problematic thing is that HTC has developed a stylus for capacitive screens,
but do not include it with the device that should be their Flag-Ship device.
The lack of stylus results the keyboard size to be huge eating up a lot of screen space,
instead of including a stylus and letting the user choose wheter to use it or not,
and allowing the user to set the keyboard size to his pereferenced size.
Now - there are several "capacitive screen" styli out there that might work just fine
so there is a solution - but - I would have expected that HTC would supply a stylus,
especially when thay have already designed one.
20mihalko said:
just shut up, and don`t buy it, and never ever visit this part of xda ok?
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Click to collapse
Brutal, funny, but oh so valid.
How hard is it to read the specs? Or a review? Or.. anything?
BTW is it true it has a capactive screen????!?! Thought I'd ask cos last 29 posts asking this might have been wrong!!!1!!!111!
mr_Ray said:
Brutal, funny, but oh so valid.
How hard is it to read the specs? Or a review? Or.. anything?
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Click to collapse
mr_Ray said:
I regret not having done my research before buying, there are enough other horror stories out there... lies, poor service, failure to deliver, honour returns, etc. etc. etc.
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Click to collapse
Apparently, it's rather hard.
Chainfire said:
Apparently, it's rather hard.
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Click to collapse
Wow what are you, some kind of stalker?
FWIW there's a difference between researching a company who you want to do nothing more than put a label on a box and give it to the postman vs. a £500 device you'll be living with every day for a year or two.
Chainfire said:
I too have large fingers so I am a bit annoyed, but I'll live
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It would be interesting to see how the future goes with the competition between Capacitive and Resistive screens. Software developers either code them all under one roof (I'm not a developer, so I'm not sure how hard!!!) or have different versions (meaning more works and costly). Because the new WM 6.5.x are very Capacitive screen friendly. M$ did a good job on the cosmetics and it's functions!
mr_Ray said:
Wow what are you, some kind of stalker?
FWIW there's a difference between researching a company who you want to do nothing more than put a label on a box and give it to the postman vs. a £500 device you'll be living with every day for a year or two.
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Click to collapse
FWIW anyone that is willing to part with £500 for a phone or anything else should be thoroughly researching every aspect of what they are buying including the company that is making it. If anything, researching the company is more important than all else as it gives insight as to build quality, customer support, future updates and fixes for what you are buying.
Even though HTC has many failings with regards to drivers and customer support I am still more than excited to get the HD2 as soon as I can, not just because the Hardware spec is the best available in todays phones but mainly because I know the dedicated members of xda-developers (which I am proud to be a part of) wont rest until the HTC HD2's full potential is unocked for the benefit of everyone.
jackkkkk said:
It would be interesting to see how the future goes with the competition between Capacitive and Resistive screens. Software developers either code them all under one roof (I'm not a developer, so I'm not sure how hard!!!) or have different versions (meaning more works and costly). Because the new WM 6.5.x are very Capacitive screen friendly. M$ did a good job on the cosmetics and it's functions!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I believe the future of Mobile Phones is capacitive screens whether people like it or not. All the major manufactures will start phasing out resistive screens in favour of capacitive technology due to the faster and more responsive feel of it. Styluses will also be phased out as Windows Mobile 7 and other 3rd party apps will have larger and more finger friendly buttons and menus.
I'm almost positive there was a previous thread about this issue, but I can't seem to find it. In any case, I've noticed that the touch sensor lags behind my finger considerably. I recorded a video with two tests consisting of a. A quick demo with the multitouch visualizer app, and b. A half-assed game of table tennis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j7cYb7EtUM
This issue has also been noted by Android Central in one of their tests of the Evo's multi touch capabilities.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieuB0VvkmwA
As you can see, the video clearly demonstrates a problem with either the hardware or software. The HTC Incredible uses the exact same touch sensor, yet exhibits none of these issues. As a result, I'm kind of doubtful it's an issue with the hardware. I'm sorry, but for such a high-end smartphone, I would expect better from HTC. Here's to hoping they address this problem in a future software update.
yeah.. im kinda disappointed in EVO..
personally, it not that big of a deal. So it's another obstacle while playing air hockey, just something to make the game more exighting. If you really are disappointed in a beast of a phone as this for having some touch sensor lag.... go dig a hole and bury yourself in it.
Rennat said:
personally, it not that big of a deal. So it's another obstacle while playing air hockey, just something to make the game more exighting. If you really are disappointed in a beast of a phone as this for having some touch sensor lag.... go dig a hole and bury yourself in it.
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Click to collapse
That really is not a good excuse for this issue. I don't want air hockey to be more exciting or challenging. I want the paddle to track my finger as accurately as every other high-end smartphone on the market. I have every right to be disappointed, because this isn't 'some' touch sensor lag. In fact, it's quite severe. I paid good money for a good smartphone, and I, along with the rest of the Evo owners, deserve better than this. We shouldn't have to settle for 'not that big of a deal'.
The lag is not on pressing buttons I think, I think it's when you drag stuff.
I mean I tried on my Droid and it feels slow to respond on the emulators with touch controls, but the Evo is slow as well. Also when clicking stuff it feels instant.
jigglywiggly said:
The lag is not on pressing buttons I think, I think it's when you drag stuff.
I mean I tried on my Droid and it feels slow to respond on the emulators with touch controls, but the Evo is slow as well. Also when clicking stuff it feels instant.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well no, there's no lag on pressing buttons. The touch sensor can easily handle a single tap, since it isn't necessarily tracking anything. When it comes to playing something like table tennis though, the problem becomes painfully obvious.
Mecha2142 said:
That really is not a good excuse for this issue. I don't want air hockey to be more exciting or challenging. I want the paddle to track my finger as accurately as every other high-end smartphone on the market. I have every right to be disappointed, because this isn't 'some' touch sensor lag. In fact, it's quite severe. I paid good money for a good smartphone, and I, along with the rest of the Evo owners, deserve better than this. We shouldn't have to settle for 'not that big of a deal'.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're missing my point. I meant to say that is a little bug in the screen tracking going to influence your desission on whether you are cool with he phone or not? Ever phone will always have minor bugs that you just have to live with. Now tell me, can you name any of your last phone's 'little bugs'? I had a Palm Pre, and I loved it. I will say the build quality was crap and I had to return it 3 times but I still enjoyed the phone. The Evo by the looks of things doesn't have any problems with hardware but the memory card issue that got resolved within a few hours of release.
Rennat said:
I meant to say that is a little bug in the screen tracking going to influence your desission on whether you are cool with he phone or not? Ever phone will always have minor bugs that you just have to live with. Now tell me, can you name any of your last phone's 'little bugs'? I had a Palm Pre, and I loved it. I will say the build quality was crap and I had to return it 3 times but I still enjoyed the phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, this little 'bug' is going to influence my decision because it shows utter negligence on behalf of HTC regarding their flagship device. A minor bug is the notification light going off every once in a while. A minor bug is not the main input method lagging behind by at least a second. This is a bug I'd rather not have to live with if HTC can fix it. What if all smartphones had this 'little bug'? I'm pretty sure nobody would just accept living with it.
When a G1 outperforms an Evo in terms of touch input tracking, there is a serious problem.
Agreed. I'd like to get this resolved. It isn't a deal breaker to me, but it is shocking that a device like this would have a significant issue with the touch sensor. I have a feeling that tracking can just be updated with a future software update, but if/when this occurs is anyone's guess.
This is definitely a software issue. From Chipworks:
Touch Screen controller
The Atmel device provides for up to 224 nodes (hence being called MXT224?) and a patented charge transfer technology that allows it to be used even in netbook screens (>10”). It features an SNR of 80:1, and an extremely fast refresh rate. All in all, the nearest competing off-the-shelf touch screen at the time of introduction has only half as many nodes, a screen refresh rate of only 83Hz (66% slower) and an SNR of only 25:1 (66% less). Another thing, it can recognize (first in the industry) not only touch but also stylus, fingernails and gloved hands. Because of the high SNR rate, the device consumes a smaller amount of power and a decreased response time (due to it not being required to make use of extra filtering circuitry).
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zeuzinn said:
This is definitely a software issue. From Chipworks:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Right. Now that you mention it, this might have some correlation with the 30 frames per second cap on the Evo. I mean, most other phones run at 60fps, and they have no problem tracking touch input. What's possibly going on is that because the phone is limited to 30fps, the screen can't refresh nearly as fast as it has to in order to track the input...
Mecha2142 said:
Right. Now that you mention it, this might have some correlation with the 30 frames per second cap on the Evo. I mean, most other phones run at 60fps, and they have no problem tracking touch input. What's possibly going on is that because the phone is limited to 30fps, the screen can't refresh nearly as fast as it has to in order to track the input...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was just thinking the same thing. Perhaps fixing the frame cap will resolve both issues.
Mecha2142 said:
Yes, this little 'bug' is going to influence my decision because it shows utter negligence on behalf of HTC regarding their flagship device. A minor bug is the notification light going off every once in a while. A minor bug is not the main input method lagging behind by at least a second. This is a bug I'd rather not have to live with if HTC can fix it. What if all smartphones had this 'little bug'? I'm pretty sure nobody would just accept living with it.
When a G1 outperforms an Evo in terms of touch input tracking, there is a serious problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As I said before.....
Rennat said:
You're missing my point. I meant to say that is a little bug in the screen tracking going to influence your desission on whether you are cool with he phone or not? Ever phone will always have minor bugs that you just have to live with. Now tell me, can you name any of your last phone's 'little bugs'? I had a Palm Pre, and I loved it. I will say the build quality was crap and I had to return it 3 times but I still enjoyed the phone. The Evo by the looks of things doesn't have any problems with hardware but the memory card issue that got resolved within a few hours of release.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
and no I don't care if the screen lag is hardware issue or software. If your going to yell and grip about this then go away. We really don't need ranters link you in the forum. The xda forum is to help others and create new ways of doing things and having more features.
At this point, I really don't care what you think. As you can tell from the other posts in this thread, and in fact the entire Evo forum, people do care about things like touch input lag, frame limit caps, and bad wi-fi reception.
Have you seen the thread on the Evo's graphical cap? Most people there seem pretty pissed off about the issue and want something done. Should they go away because they're 'ranters'? No, they're right because the only way to get things fixed is to point the problems out in the first place.
Mecha2142 said:
Yes, this little 'bug' is going to influence my decision because it shows utter negligence on behalf of HTC regarding their flagship device. A minor bug is the notification light going off every once in a while. A minor bug is not the main input method lagging behind by at least a second. This is a bug I'd rather not have to live with if HTC can fix it. What if all smartphones had this 'little bug'? I'm pretty sure nobody would just accept living with it.
When a G1 outperforms an Evo in terms of touch input tracking, there is a serious problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is not a bug. As of now, the android base will have a minor delay, especially when it comes to user interface because that is just the way java is. Which is why you will not notice it in dalvik prepped apps.
That being said I don't notice it at all after switching to the evo. I did notice it on my hero. There was always a solid delay between my finger and anything it does. On the evo I would say it is almost gone for me. But everyone always compares it to the iphone which is not java but I remember reading about the comparable delays between the two platforms and its there on the iphone <= 3gs but its just not as noticeable.
To each his own but I see way more advantages in waiting for Froyo/JIT on this platform, at least until apple opens up a bit, which will never happen.
EDIT: By the way, RUU the device because I can tell you right now of the two evo's I have played with neither had an input lag anywhere NEAR a second. If that is in fact true I believe the device or install has got something wrong with it. Or it could be a runaway app that has been installed.
flexgrip said:
This is not a bug. As of now, the android base will have a minor delay, especially when it comes to user interface because that is just the way java is. Which is why you will not notice it in dalvik prepped apps.
That being said I don't notice it at all after switching to the evo. I did notice it on my hero. There was always a solid delay between my finger and anything it does. On the evo I would say it is almost gone for me. But everyone always compares it to the iphone which is not java but I remember reading about the comparable delays between the two platforms and its there on the iphone <= 3gs but its just not as noticeable.
To each his own but I see way more advantages in waiting for Froyo/JIT on this platform, at least until apple opens up a bit, which will never happen.
EDIT: By the way, RUU the device because I can tell you right now of the two evo's I have played with neither had an input lag anywhere NEAR a second. If that is in fact true I believe the device or install has got something wrong with it. Or it could be a runaway app that has been installed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Haha this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Are you saying that my Motorola Droid, which DOESN'T have the input lag, is because it's not running java vm on Android? hahahaha Java VM has nothing to do with the lag on Evo's input.
Not really sure where I said that the moto droid is not based on java or anything of the sort. Pretty much ever developer knows that java ui performance is mostly crap.
For example eclipse and OOO. Perfect examples. They have purely unacceptable lag in their UI.
Nearly ALL user interfaces based on java have a laggy UI. As a developer I made a conscious choice to not use java based ui and go with gtk/clutter. I have played with several motorola droids and they all have a solid delay that in most circumstances does not exist on the iphone. It is a pretty common reason for folks to not use java to build their apps. Take a good look at the sandbox dalvik apps. Even under the android emulator they are much more responsive.
I DO NOT see the moto droid having less delay than my evo. I think you are mistaking frame rate for input lag. As icons are moving, they look "jittery" or skip around. That is a long shot from saying there is a 1 second delay between your finger and movement on the screen. I had an app crash the other day while downloading files to the SD card and the whole system slowed down and had this massive input delay. So all I was really saying was try and see if there is maybe something you have installed that has made this happen because everything seems pretty "instant" to me, coming from the hero. Obviously it could be that my opinion is relative to my hero. But I notice that the evo is a bit snappier than the incredible. And that is backed up by a few reviews.
flexgrip said:
Not really sure where I said that the moto droid is not based on java or anything of the sort. Pretty much ever developer knows that java ui performance is mostly crap.
For example eclipse and OOO. Perfect examples. They have purely unacceptable lag in their UI.
Nearly ALL user interfaces based on java have a laggy UI. As a developer I made a conscious choice to not use java based ui and go with gtk/clutter. I have played with several motorola droids and they all have a solid delay that in most circumstances does not exist on the iphone. It is a pretty common reason for folks to not use java to build their apps. Take a good look at the sandbox dalvik apps. Even under the android emulator they are much more responsive.
I DO NOT see the moto droid having less delay than my evo. I think you are mistaking frame rate for input lag. As icons are moving, they look "jittery" or skip around. That is a long shot from saying there is a 1 second delay between your finger and movement on the screen. I had an app crash the other day while downloading files to the SD card and the whole system slowed down and had this massive input delay. So all I was really saying was try and see if there is maybe something you have installed that has made this happen because everything seems pretty "instant" to me, coming from the hero. Obviously it could be that my opinion is relative to my hero. But I notice that the evo is a bit snappier than the incredible. And that is backed up by a few reviews.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Move your finger faster on the screen. Your finger will be going one direction while the interface is still going another direction. The delay is greater than the difference between 30 and 60FPS.
flexgrip said:
Not really sure where I said that the moto droid is not based on java or anything of the sort. Pretty much ever developer knows that java ui performance is mostly crap.
For example eclipse and OOO. Perfect examples. They have purely unacceptable lag in their UI.
Nearly ALL user interfaces based on java have a laggy UI. As a developer I made a conscious choice to not use java based ui and go with gtk/clutter. I have played with several motorola droids and they all have a solid delay that in most circumstances does not exist on the iphone. It is a pretty common reason for folks to not use java to build their apps. Take a good look at the sandbox dalvik apps. Even under the android emulator they are much more responsive.
I DO NOT see the moto droid having less delay than my evo. I think you are mistaking frame rate for input lag. As icons are moving, they look "jittery" or skip around. That is a long shot from saying there is a 1 second delay between your finger and movement on the screen. I had an app crash the other day while downloading files to the SD card and the whole system slowed down and had this massive input delay. So all I was really saying was try and see if there is maybe something you have installed that has made this happen because everything seems pretty "instant" to me, coming from the hero. Obviously it could be that my opinion is relative to my hero. But I notice that the evo is a bit snappier than the incredible. And that is backed up by a few reviews.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You drunk?
I have the Droid and the HTC EVO 4g.
Get the a touch input application
Scroll around with the Droid, instant.
Evo 4g super delay
This issue has nothing to do with Dalvik, or Java.
jigglywiggly said:
You drunk?
I have the Droid and the HTC EVO 4g.
Get the a touch input application
Scroll around with the Droid, instant.
Evo 4g super delay
This issue has nothing to do with Dalvik, or Java.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1 its there and verified
Ok, by now everyone here should have had time to play with a WP7 right? Have you noticed how responsive the WP7 screen is to touch? It's so smooth and responsive. It's almost like the screen wants to move faster than your finger...
My question is, Why isn't Android like this? And when will it be like this, if ever?
Android obviously has some lag in that department. I can't imagine it's a hardware issue being that HTC is building most of the WP7 devices.
If WP7 and iPhone can do it, why can't we?
generalExpert said:
Ok, by now everyone here should have had time to play with a WP7 right? Have you noticed how responsive the WP7 screen is to touch? It's so smooth and responsive. It's almost like the screen wants to move faster than your finger...
My question is, Why isn't Android like this? And when will it be like this, if ever?
Android obviously has some lag in that department. I can't imagine it's a hardware issue being that HTC is building most of the WP7 devices.
If WP7 and iPhone can do it, why can't we?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Reason: HW/GPU acceleration.
When: Maybe/Probably Honeycomb.
I agree with you, I said the same thing. Man your battle station because fanboys are going to hit you hard.
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generalExpert said:
Ok, by now everyone here should have had time to play with a WP7 right? Have you noticed how responsive the WP7 screen is to touch? It's so smooth and responsive. It's almost like the screen wants to move faster than your finger...
My question is, Why isn't Android like this? And when will it be like this, if ever?
Android obviously has some lag in that department. I can't imagine it's a hardware issue being that HTC is building most of the WP7 devices.
If WP7 and iPhone can do it, why can't we?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because Android's top priority isn't the perfect user experience. It's all about bringing ad money in from phone ads.
thetakara said:
Because Android's top priority isn't the perfect user experience. It's all about bringing ad money in from phone ads.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is this your opinion?...
Award Tour said:
Reason: HW/GPU acceleration.
When: Maybe/Probably Honeycomb.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is this (HW/GPU Acceleration) something that can only be accomplished by google, or can the devs here do it too?
generalExpert said:
Is this (HW/GPU Acceleration) something that can only be accomplished by google, or can the devs here do it too?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Way to complicated for devs.
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generalExpert said:
Is this your opinion?...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's his opinion of course.
My opinion: Android was originally built to compete with BB OS (if you look at early photos of Android it was more BB OS like: track ball/pad dependent, crappy menu'ing system, etc.). iOS soon came out and became a success; Android was then forced to adapt to a new style. HW acceleration was probably not in their plans at first and even when it became an issue/important, they needed to adapt Android's core to compete with iOS and just be a touch friendly OS in general. Honeycomb seems to be the update that levels out the experience/Android as a more touch friendly, iOS aligned OS - HW acceleration, less HW button dependence, eliminating/minimizing the menu'ing system, etc.
Is honeycomb only for tablets? Why have I been reading on Engadget that honeycomb is only going to be for tablets?
I hope not...
generalExpert said:
Is honeycomb only for tablets? Why have I been reading on Engadget that honeycomb is only going to be for tablets?
I hope not...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its all speculation.
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generalExpert said:
Is honeycomb only for tablets? Why have I been reading on Engadget that honeycomb is only going to be for tablets?
I hope not...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think anyone has specifically said that Honeycomb is also for phones; I've only heard that what you see on Honeycomb is the direction that Android is heading for in the future which includes phones. So you'll probably see a lot of the features (the ones that are able to scale down to phones) like HW acceleration, UI tweaks, etc. on a future Android update. Rumor is that update is ice cream and is coming in the spring/summer.
A good sign of that is the new Sony Arc phone. There's been screen shots of it running 2.4 and one thing that stood out like crazy was the inclusion of a super wide screen display that seems to include in display software buttons for Home, back, etc. - just like in Honeycomb.
I was just wondering about this myself, here's the Issue on the AOSP project home.
http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=6914
Long story short, google thinks more powerful hardware will take care of the issue for it, and improved garbage collection will increase "smoothness." If you disagree post on that thread, I did
psych2l said:
I was just wondering about this myself, here's the Issue on the AOSP project home.
http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=6914
Long story short, google thinks more powerful hardware will take care of the issue for it, and improved garbage collection will increase "smoothness." If you disagree post on that thread, I did
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its an incredibly stupid solution and will lead to more cpu usage for something that a weak gpu like the evo's could take care of at a lower cost.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk
bitter much? do you post anything that isn't condescending or polarizing?
Award Tour said:
Its an incredibly stupid solution and will lead to more cpu usage for something that a weak gpu like the evo's could take care of at a lower cost.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think user is really important. I man my battleship daily and sometimes my finger misses. How does hdmi interact with user? I always have to wonder if it's due to touch or hdmi. My exp are better in cm7 than cm 6 but in video like utube I really see no difference if it is a question of quality. I think attention goes both to sound and video in usual use. So does it effect games?
If HDMI should be faster, it should be for its own reason. So, we will see it in games, in tv, and others (as we do).
Look at the the flip camera. Enlarge and you can see it should be built into the cm too.
You cannot see it with the naked eye in games. I say this because I have a very good eye. When you enlarge, you can see. But for games, they do not scale this way for seeing. Once we try to enjoy on a real scale the problem becomes apparent. I don't know the cause, it could be kernel; it could be hdmi. But with pictures and video hdmi is new standard. Old tvs might have been fine (better?) with out it but they changed it all now so we need hdmi for video and photo.
Evo is very small but for projection it is essential to top quality mobile presentation. It should be offloaded to the peripheral tho is that possible? There is no use in such fine detail in so small screen.
psych2l said:
I was just wondering about this myself, here's the Issue on the AOSP project home.
http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=6914
Long story short, google thinks more powerful hardware will take care of the issue for it, and improved garbage collection will increase "smoothness." If you disagree post on that thread, I did
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well googles first post ( I didn't read all of it) says they cant implement it because older phones don't support it.... (g1)
Aha its funny to see everyone jump on google for how crappy it is not using gpu acceleration.
generalExpert said:
Ok, by now everyone here should have had time to play with a WP7 right? Have you noticed how responsive the WP7 screen is to touch? It's so smooth and responsive. It's almost like the screen wants to move faster than your finger...
My question is, Why isn't Android like this? And when will it be like this, if ever?
Android obviously has some lag in that department. I can't imagine it's a hardware issue being that HTC is building most of the WP7 devices.
If WP7 and iPhone can do it, why can't we?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Too complicated for developers to tackle, but I agree 100%. Don't get me wrong, I would never use either of those platforms due to how much I love being on rooted android. But it is so much smoother, and I hope Gingerbread combats this.
I've mostly assumed that because the iPad2, Asus TF, and Xoom all use IPS panels, they would have the same visual quality. I also assumed that they all have about the same sensitivity to touch.
After reading some responses in other threads regarding using a stylus for hand writing notes, some people indicated that it's WAY easier to write on the iPad2. Not sure if this is due to hardware (better sensitivity) or software (better apps).
Can anyone shed some light on the issue? Not sure how Apple and Asus (and others) implement the capacitive touch sensors. Does the touch sensing have anything to do with the IPS screen?
Any iPad users comment on this? So, trying to be as objective as possible, without feeling loyal to either Asus or Apple
From a later post in this thread:
if we re-frame the original post question in terms of how much room there is for improvement on the Asus with software updates?
Can our Transformer be a bit MORE adequate for pen style note taking someday? Is there a hardware limitation, or software? Can it reach, say, iPad2 levels of pen style note taking performance?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you talking about speculation? Because we're treading into flaming waters here.
If someone says the iPad 2 is better in terms of touch recognition the fanboys will come out of the woodwork and ask for expert witness testimonial or scientific data. For the reverse scenario, it's generally acceptable without either.
The same people who claimed that it was factually inaccurate to claim these units have ****ty build quality without proof on paper will also claim that it is impossible to talk about this subject because there is no proof about anything.
So if you're asking this question seriously it's under the expectation that we're all assuming. Even then it's not possible to positively argue for either side because we have no idea how they handle the implementation. It could be both software and hardware. iOS could make up for hardware shortfalls by modifications to software, do we know if this is certain? No. These are trade secrets. The TF does have ten finger/touchpoint input recognition if I'm correct. I don't really care about pen input if it can't do ten finger input.
i bought a cheap (OK very cheap) stylus from ebay and didnt find it very useable but i think that was the rubber stylus 'dragging' on the glass rather than anything else.....
I haven't really played with an ipad 2 much (being generally anti-apple ) so i can't really compare.
That said, i don't think the stock asus keyboard is all that great. I've installed Hackers keyboard and that works like a charm. If only swype was available for tablets ...
Sixpence1 said:
I haven't really played with an ipad 2 much (being generally anti-apple ) so i can't really compare.
That said, i don't think the stock asus keyboard is all that great. I've installed Hackers keyboard and that works like a charm. If only swype was available for tablets ...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Swype Beta 3.5 is available and it has a resizable/movable keyboard for Honeycomb tablets. Give it a shot.
coachclass said:
I've mostly assumed that because the iPad2, Asus TF, and Xoom all use IPS panels, they would have the same visual quality. I also assumed that they all have about the same sensitivity to touch.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Xoom is not a IPS panel its a TFT panel, so the picture quality not equal to both the TF and ipad.
I own a transformer and iphone4, and I've played with my sister's ipad2 quite a bit. I like the transformer but in no way are the touch sensitivities alike. The ipad2 is better. It does not lag at all and I get way more miss hits on the transformer using light touches.
It could be the lack of flash, but I'm hoping it's just a software issue for the transformer. As I was typin this on my transformer the thumb keyboard kept hiding itself and then the browser crashed about a minute later (dolphin hd browser). I'm typing this on my iPhone which is way quicker for me without crashes.
Take t however you like, but to me, the iPad wins in touch usability. I'm still not selling this thing though. For the extra things it can do, it's great!
coachclass said:
I've mostly assumed that because the iPad2, Asus TF, and Xoom all use IPS panels, they would have the same visual quality. I also assumed that they all have about the same sensitivity to touch.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am confused here.....are you saying that you believe that all IPS Panels have Touch? Because they do not.
Digiguest said:
I am confused here.....are you saying that you believe that all IPS Panels have Touch? Because they do not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes I think there is a lot of confusion indeed. The display technology and the capacitive touch interface have nothing to do with each other, other than the fact they live in the same piece of hardware.
In theory it is possible the iPad has better touch receptors than the TF-101, but having used both I can say that in my opinion it does not. If you are experiencing problems using a stylus, I would investigate the stylus, not the tablet.
ok, scratch the parts about IPS screens, I understand now that the sensing technology is different from the display technology - OP.
But, to my point, it does seem like there's consensus on Apple's touch performance being better than the Asus TF.
I wonder if this is a hardware issue (not solvable) or a software issue (hope for future improvement)?
The touch screen is beyond most capacitive devices, imo. There was a thread a while back with the standard touch screen test done, and the TF showed some bending around the edges but was otherwise a-okay. The touch screen works amazing for typing on a keyboard or doing general apps. As far as handwriting or painting goes, it performs, but it's not the best.
It's by no means unacceptable.
If I were worried about precise handwriting or drawing, I'd get a Windows Tablet PC with an active digitizer. Or, an HTC Flyer, which has one as well. No capacitive touch screen will ever provide much precision--they're simply not made to do so.
wynand32 said:
If I were worried about precise handwriting or drawing, I'd get a Windows Tablet PC with an active digitizer. Or, an HTC Flyer, which has one as well. No capacitive touch screen will ever provide much precision--they're simply not made to do so.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yup, I can appreciate that thought. But, if we re-frame the original post question in terms of how much room there is for improvement on the Asus with software updates?
Can our Transformer be a bit MORE adequate for pen style note taking someday? Is there a hardware limitation, or software? Can it reach, say, iPad2 levels of pen style note taking performance?
...I know people will say that if you want iPad2 performance, buy an iPad2...but that's not the point. I started this thread with the intention of learning more about the product, not to bash it or to say how much better iPad2 is.
It will indeed be interesting to see if future software updates improve the accuracy/sensitivity of the TF.
I own both an iPad and a TF. I don't really notice a difference in screen usability - mostly just that iOS is incredibly smooth but boring as hell and the TF is a little less smooth but much more interactive - in that sense it gets easy to confuse the actual sensor quality with OS/application level responsiveness.
My little brother (iphone fanboy) swears that there is a huge difference between the two.
Yeah, sometimes it's difficult to compare the two head to head. You have to disable widgets and maybe the active wall paper on the Asus.
coachclass said:
Yup, I can appreciate that thought. But, if we re-frame the original post question in terms of how much room there is for improvement on the Asus with software updates?
Can our Transformer be a bit MORE adequate for pen style note taking someday? Is there a hardware limitation, or software? Can it reach, say, iPad2 levels of pen style note taking performance?
...I know people will say that if you want iPad2 performance, buy an iPad2...but that's not the point. I started this thread with the intention of learning more about the product, not to bash it or to say how much better iPad2 is.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would believe so. I dont know as much about the sensitivity but the response. I remember there was a lag and some gestures getting broken by bad sensitivity on my Evo when it first came out but a kernel update really changed it. It opened up more contact points (originally HTC had it capped at two) and the response was much better.
stuckonduhmode said:
I own a transformer and iphone4, and I've played with my sister's ipad2 quite a bit. I like the transformer but in no way are the touch sensitivities alike. The ipad2 is better. It does not lag at all and I get way more miss hits on the transformer using light touches.
It could be the lack of flash, but I'm hoping it's just a software issue for the transformer. As I was typin this on my transformer the thumb keyboard kept hiding itself and then the browser crashed about a minute later (dolphin hd browser). I'm typing this on my iPhone which is way quicker for me without crashes.
Take t however you like, but to me, the iPad wins in touch usability. I'm still not selling this thing though. For the extra things it can do, it's great!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My wife has a Ipad it does seem more touch responsive at times. it of course uses a different OS. Apples and Oranges.
I was at BB the other day checking out the new Sammy 10.1 it seemed so responsive and fast but when I got back home to my TF it was about the same. Perspective.
I get the similar crashes in Dolphin HD (which isn't really tablet specific yet), I also get even more crashes among other things in Maxthon pad ..which is supposed to be for a pad, I also get them in the stock browser according to what I'm doing, flash etc. Some sites where I am typing in a message or a response the keyboard closes at weird times and isn't as responsive ...I have similar problems on those sites with my laptop. It doesn't close cause I'm typing on my keyboard but it doesn't act right.
Dolphin is getting better with each release...but all is relatively new and the bugs are not out. I'm keeping my TF and I'll just have to deal with it.
Maybe the IPad si more responsive because the software is more simple and does not stress the hardware, like Honeycomb does?
berbecverde said:
Maybe the IPad si more responsive because the software is more simple and does not stress the hardware, like Honeycomb does?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In large part, this is true. A lot of issues with lag are mistaken for responsiveness on the touch screen's part. Android has a lot more running at any given time than iOS, so it won't be as smooth. It's a trade-off.
Not that I am contributing anything to the discussion, but people who find the asus keyboard crappy and are not comfortable with swyping on a tablet(don't get me wrong, I m currently swyping on my captivate, love it !), I would definitely recommend to you thumb keyboard. I live on it. My transformer lives on it. Its as integrated part of my tablet as swype is for my captivate. They just are perfect together. Holding it with 2 hands, so that I don't find it heavy while I read books for long periods, our read comics or browse the net, typing feels so natural on it. Plus they added key resizing for different finger sizes! Imo, that should be the honeycomb default keyboard. Try it.
Ps-m not related or affiliated in any ways to the dev. I just love his work.
Pps- screw ipad. just kidding. Maybe.
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