Database Users

Could we multi touch like this idea for the android ?

This Article
http://lukehutch.wordpress.com/2009/01/25/get-multi-touch-support-on-your-t-mobile-g1-today/
outlines an approach to multi touch on the adroid
if it's possible to re-write the touch drivers it might be possible on the hd
it works along the lines that it can work out the size of the circle the multi touch (2 fingers)
defines... thus it's radius and hence the releative distance.
so maybe pinch could be implemented
Gary

Doubt it, the G1 has the same screen type as the iPhone, the touch HD doesnt. Personally i much prefer the gesture and double tap the HD uses because its a one handed operation, multi touch is 2 handed or requires the phone to be placed on a surface. Its VERY over rated.

The HD uses a resistive touch screen, which makes multi-touch impossible sadly - it does give the screen the advantage of being able to be used with a stylus however - which you can't do with the iPhone or G1.
There are some gestures, such as zooming which lends quite well to multi-touch support, but I don't really miss them. I'm on the same boat as rovex in that area - it's a nice idea, but over rated.

garyjmobey said:
This Article
http://lukehutch.wordpress.com/2009/01/25/get-multi-touch-support-on-your-t-mobile-g1-today/
outlines an approach to multi touch on the adroid
if it's possible to re-write the touch drivers it might be possible on the hd
it works along the lines that it can work out the size of the circle the multi touch (2 fingers)
defines... thus it's radius and hence the releative distance.
so maybe pinch could be implemented
Gary
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is not true multitouch, it's a dirty hack. I think it could be possible to develop applications using hack of this sort, but is there any real use of it besides a demo that shows this hack?

dwaradzyn said:
It is not true multitouch, it's a dirty hack. I think it could be possible to develop applications using hack of this sort, but is there any real use of it besides a demo that shows this hack?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Provided that it is properly released in some sort of broader API package, it can be useful.
However I don't think that's going to happen, unless MS itself puts it in WM6.5 or even 7 (maybe as part of a "WM DirectX"?).
But imagine - WM applications that can run on both resistive and capacitive screens in a similar way.. Now that would be nice!

will the lack of stylus be an issue?

while the gigantic 4.3" helps in making everything finger (or even foot) friendly, its still a windows mobile device. and many of the apps require some precision are written to be used with a stylus. i cant imagine using "Pocket Artist" or copy and pasting text using my finger on a WM device.
You guys think that this will be a problem with this device.

it's not a problem on the iphone, why should it be a problem on a device with a bigger screen? I don't remember ever using the stylus on my HD...never needed it. I don't expect I'll need it on this device either

twisted-pixel said:
it's not a problem on the iphone, why should it be a problem on a device with a bigger screen?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because iPhone applications are written on the assumption that they are being used on an iPhone without a stylus. Plenty of Windows Mobile apps are written on the assumption that you are using a stylus; this includes a number of utilities built into the operating system.

I used the Leo ROM on my Xperia X1 and can say as long as you stay inside windows (or said different inside the shipped software) you won't get any problems, its very finger friendly and I never went down to an old wm 6 skin. concerns are only there if you want to use some 3rd party software. there might be a problem with finger usage like said above or somewhere else as they don't have to be finger optimized.

Personally - I think it will be fine. Also with later revisions of WM6.5 and then hopefully WM7 I think the phone will get easier IF there are any issues. The issues will only occur when you come out of the HTC Sense layer anyway, which won't be that often.

I thought HTC patented the capacitive stylus?

Lack of stylus will not be a issue at all with that huge screen...I think. We see when its in our hands. Hope it will be very soon

I'm using a TyTN II and almost never dig out the stylus. Over time I moved to apps that were finger friendly. And with the current design trends, I'm guessing even more apps will become available that don't require a stylus.
-Bob-

12aon said:
I thought HTC patented the capacitive stylus?
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Click to collapse
afaik yes but on no pics can you find where it is placed i think and then they will probably release it with a largish price tag like the car dock...

All of you who are using resistive screens with LEO ROM, your impressions are worthless (regarding how the LEO ROM will behave on the real HD2) because resistive screens are more accurate than capacitive screens, even if you use just your finger (not to mention you can still use fingernail with resistive).
HTC said that since the LEO has capacitive screen, it can not operate well without the new MANILA, and for that reason, they said that they didn't give an option to disable MANILA, and went even further to say that if some programer will try to disable it, they did everything they could in order for him to find it "very challenging".

Noam23 said:
All of you who are using resistive screens with LEO ROM, your impressions are worthless (regarding how the LEO ROM will behave on the real HD2) because resistive screens are more accurate than capacitive screens, even if you use just your finger (not to mention you can still use fingernail with resistive).
HTC said that since the LEO has capacitive screen, it can not operate well without the new MANILA, and for that reason, they said that they didn't give an option to disable MANILA, and went even further to say that if some programer will try to disable it, they did everything they could in order for him to find it "very challenging".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What makes you say this? There have been plenty off leo roms out that seem to leave that function intact

Noam23 said:
All of you who are using resistive screens with LEO ROM, your impressions are worthless (regarding how the LEO ROM will behave on the real HD2) because resistive screens are more accurate than capacitive screens, even if you use just your finger (not to mention you can still use fingernail with resistive).
HTC said that since the LEO has capacitive screen, it can not operate well without the new MANILA, and for that reason, they said that they didn't give an option to disable MANILA, and went even further to say that if some programer will try to disable it, they did everything they could in order for him to find it "very challenging".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't use my Touch Diamond's stylus, and the Touch Diamond has a much smaller screen so I think the huge screen of the HD2, coupled with the capacitive touch sensivity, should be fine.
And if that second bit is true, I'm surprised because that means they went to the trouble of making it easy to disable TouchFLO 3D and TouchFLO on older devices...

And if that second bit is true, I'm surprised because that means they went to the trouble of making it easy to disable TouchFLO 3D and TouchFLO on older devices...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True, because the TouchFLO 3D and TouchFLO were sold on devices with *resistive* screens, these devices can handle Windows Mobile screens without any trouble. The HD2 on the other hand has the capacitive screen, and HTC knows that operating the WM UI with such device is going to be a problem, such a problem that no one even believe capacitive will reach WM before version 7.0, yet HTC came with the MANILA 2.5 solution, so I can very much understand them when they say they don't want you to defeat MANILA 2.5.

O2 are offering me this phone as an upgrade. I need a decent keyboard and am loathed to part with my TP2!
Does anyone have any experience of using any of the screen "keyboards" for emails etc? If so, can it really replace the hardware keyboard?

May be a silly question, I don`t know much about different screen types but cant you just use another stylus instead of your finger? I always have a pen/stylus in my pocket at work and never use the provided stylus with my HD

kjt57 said:
May be a silly question, I don`t know much about different screen types but cant you just use another stylus instead of your finger? I always have a pen/stylus in my pocket at work and never use the provided stylus with my HD
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You need a special kind of stylus for capacitive screens.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-CAPACITIV...ries_MobilePhoneBatteries?hash=item2ea897a251

Noam23 said:
All of you who are using resistive screens with LEO ROM, your impressions are worthless (regarding how the LEO ROM will behave on the real HD2) because resistive screens are more accurate than capacitive screens, even if you use just your finger (not to mention you can still use fingernail with resistive).
HTC said that since the LEO has capacitive screen, it can not operate well without the new MANILA, and for that reason, they said that they didn't give an option to disable MANILA, and went even further to say that if some programer will try to disable it, they did everything they could in order for him to find it "very challenging".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Very interesting information Noam23. Being able to use a phone effectively with your finger most of the time when you have to use your finger all of the time is not acceptable to me.
I also have the same issue mentioned in your other post where I would want to turn off Manila/HTC-Sense. The fact that they've tried to prevent this proves how unusable WM6.5 is on a capacitive screen.
Oh well, that's just saved me a lot of money!

Can't help but think everyone is being a little binary here
The UI is the launch pad for the device ... It will be possible to disable TouchFlo3D. HTC were probably saying this to detract people from the ever present concerns with exposure to the native OS UI.
All the other apps you use on the device have their own UI. Once launched, it is almost (back to that in a moment) irrelevant what the OS UI is. The concern will be if those desktop class apps we love on WM in spite of WM itself are not easy to use on the HD2.
I don't see many apps I have that will be a problem ... infact, the only ones would be Resco Explorer, utilities like SKtools, data entry tools like Softmaker Office and PhatNotes (although I'll probably be ok with the on screen keyboard given the capacitive touch and size of display ... and for laptop 'replacement' use, I'll use the BT Stowaway keyboard and mouse) and drawing tools .... which some I'm sure want .... I personally (and therefore subjective) have never used them ... so it isn't an issue for me.
It is true to say that PI and Flexmail could do with more focus on touch ... and given the iPhone apps Alex was working on (I'm a little out of date) ... I'm sure that will come soon.
Also .. I'm not sure if it waning enthusiasm or a change of focus ... but having used PI extensively for years ... when using Mobile Shell 3 and things like PocketBreeze, I realised I rarely went to PI any more .... With FlexMail ... it is a superb product ... but it always had problems with storage ... and after the WM client supported HTML ... it was less needed ... with TF3D ... again ... makes it even easier ... so PI will remain for micro text month view and tasks ... FM will remain for when I need to do complex searches of mail (a real weakness of the native clients on all phones), but I will rarely touch them in normal daily use.
So ... although I resisted the 'hype' around capacitive ... and thought a stylus would always be needed .... in practice ... I'd like to get an HTC capacitive stylus if it ever makes it off the drawing board ... but I doubt I'll really need one.
I used to always want the keyboard ... but after having 4 TyTNs and 3 TyTNIIs respectively before I got one that didn't have some keyboard or mech / ribbon issue .... and the TP2 that had the loose mech issue ... I finally decided I wanted to simplify all mechanical bits ... so I'm looking forward to the HD2. I like others think the 5 buttons + the rocker will allow aebutton+ control where needed in older games.
And the benefit to the Capacitive screen for me will be a smoother more responsive touch (I'm not commenting of accuracy ... because no one that hasn't used it can really comment ... and they certainly can't comment on what it maybe like if and when the HTC Stylus comes out ... if it does) .... and it should also be less reflective ... and therefore clearer in different light conditions ... and it will have a harder surface ... which will (to me) feel better.
So in summary ... given TF3D or MS3.5 will cover most of the OS UI requirements ... as well as the front end to native apps which are touch optimised and most of the big apps I will use will be fine with their own UI ... I think the HD2 with it's display and external simplicity has hit the market at the right time and will in practise be more than fine for everyone happy with a device this size that doesn't need drawing apps on day one.
I also suspect that the internal 512M + a good fast 16 or 32 GB MicroSDHC will more than meet the requirements of the WM7 1 chassis .... and in a year or 18 months ... when I have itchy feet .... I will get a ROM from XDA .... that will rejuvinate the machine ... I can't say this for certain ... and no one at present can say it will or won't be a possibility ...
Mine is on order for Clove ... it is genuinely the first time I've been excited about a WM device since the TyTNII was announced ...

Moandal said:
Very interesting information Noam23. Being able to use a phone effectively with your finger most of the time when you have to use your finger all of the time is not acceptable to me.
I also have the same issue mentioned in your other post where I would want to turn off Manila/HTC-Sense. The fact that they've tried to prevent this proves how unusable WM6.5 is on a capacitive screen.
Oh well, that's just saved me a lot of money!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe you should try it before drawing any conclusions?
Really interested in seeing how Opera performs on the HD2 and whether or not clicking links is difficult.

It's easy to tap small links on the iphone, why should it be difficult on the HD2? All this "it won't be possible to use because of the capacitive screen" debate is just FUD, IMO.

Lack of d-pad

I didn't want to hijack the 'lack of stylus/capacitative screen' thread, but I currently have an original Tilt collecting dust while I've been using a borrowed iPhone 3G until something much better comes along (re: TP2, HD2, Droid??) etc
As mentioned in the other thread, one of the key differences between the iPhone and WinMo devices, is that iPhone developers knew they were developing for devices without styluses or d-pads or keyboards etc, so they suited the app for that experience.
With WinMo, there are so many great legacy applications (productivity and most notably games) that rely on a stylus and/or a dpad to successfully navigate and use the applications. I know from personal experience I was apt to use the stylus less and less on my Tilt because I was able to navigate menus quickly with the dpad etc when they were small.
I know the lack of d-pad is the new trend with a lot [most] WinMo devices and I was hoping someone could comment on that from a usability standpoint. I'm even thinking of simple games like Kevtris etc...I know for some games when you have an option to popup the onscreen keyboard that may alleviate some issues, but I know there are other games that go full screen and don't even remotely give that option...thoughts? Am I overlooking something here?
Thanks!

Don't know anything about Kevtris, but a lot of (if not most) games are unusable on Touch HD.
Apart from games, there are some situations when I miss a d-pad, usually in situations of scrolling through lists. Drop-down lists on web pages in Opera is an especially annoying example. In most other cases though there are arrow keys on the HTC keyboard, which do the job, but you only see half of the screen (the other one is occupied by the keyboard).
So, to summarize, lack of a d-pad is a problem sometimes, but on the other hand not a huge one really, and I wouldn't change my HD for anything but HD2, which also lacks one.

vangrieg said:
So, to summarize, lack of a d-pad is a problem sometimes, but on the other hand not a huge one really, and I wouldn't change my HD for anything but HD2, which also lacks one.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
quoted for truth ...

When I first began using smartphones, my first one, the HTC Hermes, had a D-Pad. I have to admit, I was addicted to it instantly.
It made everything so simple. Controlling music, scrolling, and notably J2ME apps/games all worked better with it. When I had upgraded to a Fuze, I lost the D-Pad, and did miss it really badly at first. However, over time, I eventually stopped caring so much for it.
The way I used my device had to be adjusted, but it was nothing so major. However, if there is one thing that is annoying about lack of D-Pad, it is that many J2ME apps/games simply didn't work well without it. I got over that because many J2ME apps/games didn't work well with a VGA/WVGA screen either. Still, it was a rather significant blow.
Would I like a D-Pad on all my devices? Yes, but I no longer view it as necessary.

Thanks for the replies guys- it sounds like the consensus is that there is no good 'workaround', and that it's a legitimate issue, but in general the benefits/features of the new device outweigh those cons.

For lack of D-pad on games, someone here on xda has developed a software to use the accelerometer to send the d-pad buttons (not just for games actually).
I think's it's called gpad or something.
The software is still being developed but it allowed me to play worms on a device without d-pad.
There might be other software, anyone else found anything?
If we support developments like that, we can actually eliminate the 'worry' of not having a d-pad, and still enjoy our games, with more fun actually!

Yep, Virtual D-Pad v0.9 is the future way to go...
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=466002

galaxys said:
Yep, Virtual D-Pad v0.9 is the future way to go...
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=466002
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Awesome! This is why I love all the guys here!

hello, every body! (first post!)
great to see all the work done on this forum.
would be interested in HTC HD2, but lack of pad is really annoying. Lots of app need one, just for example navigate in calendar (agenda fusion for me.)
Could it be a solution to write a virtual keybord with ONLY the 4 arrows and an OK button? (and no others letters, to gain display space)
i am definitively not a developper, can't do anything about coding, sadly.
excuse me for my bad english, btw.
1otherfred

shouldnt be that hard, you have everything already, just rip out the arrows and ok button and replace them, or make new ones... unfortunatly im no coder, but maybe I can play around in photoshop/paint

I have developpid one, based on fingerkeyboard.
you can find it here
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=483218

Keyboard Comparisons...

Hello,
Currently I have a Hero and I love the keyboard experience. Although, sometimes it does have a bit of lag and the keys hang as a long press, but thats very rare.
Texting for me is one main feat on a phone and I'm hoping the keyboard on the HD2 will match the one on the Hero.
All you people out there that have the phone, can you please let us know what you think of the keyboard and how it performs compared to other devices you have used.
Let us know the other device too so we can compare if we have that.
Many thanks everyone!

no lag.. very very very sensitive.. some would say almost too sensitive. Personally prefer inout on my iphone but it I will reserve judgement on HD2 for at least two weeks. Out of the box though, for me, its too sensitive.

i would like to see a youtube video with someone typing "the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" as fast as they can, and if using the XT9 feature just do it in your own language.. Its just to get an idea of the responsiveness.. And oh, does it do landscape keybaord thingy?

Today I compared typing on my HD2 to my friends iPhone 3G and I definately preferred typing on the iPhone. Faster typing and a lot less errors. Probably because once you have tapped on a letter you can't change it, but with the HTC keyboard you can, which can prove to be quite annoying.
Thats not to say that the HD2 typing experience is bad, its definately better than all my older devices.

I found the keyboard better than the touch hd's, but it still can be annoying with the mistakes. sometimes it freezes or delays. I had a bunch of hardware keyboard phones before, typing speed on the hd2 is nothing close to what you could do on the tilt for example.

Installing SPB Keyboard nearly solves all of the keyboard problems on the HD2.
I've tried HTC's, Resco's and SPB's keyboard, and SPB is by far the best for fingers, since it does not change letters after you type them, and it even allows for a full-screen keyboard when you need to type a lot of complicated symbols.
Resco's is too small and makes it hard to type symbols besides letters, and sometimes sticks its SIP where you don't want it; HTC's is overly predictive and corrective, changing what you type as you type it, to the detriment of productivity. SPB just works.
SPB Shell + SPB Keyboard is a must-have for the HD2 I think.

anyone tried this?
http://www.mobiletextinput.com/about.php
my TD2 is sold, and awaiting the HD2 so cant try it out

[question]multi-touch on tattoo

i've just read about sdk that allow smartphone with windows mobile and resistive screen to have multi-touch.
now the question:
is there a similar project for android device like tattoo?

rossonero92 said:
i've just read about sdk that allow smartphone with windows mobile and resistive screen to have multi-touch.
now the question:
is there a similar project for android device like tattoo?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ralle.gade is currently working on including this in his kernel for Kiljacken's ROM

No,
ralle.gade don't work with MT now, becouse we have to wait when Wildfire kernel releases..

i see
i wish it comes fast

it isn't a real MT.. just emulating it thrugh the sw.
a real multi-touch is impossible and I think is very hard dev a software to do it..
we'd need a "hook" (maybe a "+" on the screen) to hang the position of the finger and then do the second move to do something (like rotate images..)

Wikipedia says resisting screens can support multi touch along with this reference
www.umpcportal.com/2009/02/multi-touch-comes-to-resistive-touchscreens/
I've even found that this company 'stantum' is also developing multi touch for resistive screens
i.engadget.com/2009/02/19/stantums-mind-blowing-multitouch-interface-on-video/
It basically requires the device to understand the position of both fingers along the XY coordinates and then process them accordingly.
Sent from my HTC Tattoo using XDA App

any news about MT?

hello man, the problem is that the screen hw tattoo is kind of capability, and is a hardware limitation to not support multitouch,
you could try to emulate it via sw but from what my experience is of counsel to give up, too much work for an outcome that would at most just enough

... and that is why tattoo is so cheap