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Okay,
So I am a power user, and that might be putting it lightly. When it comes to deciding between the Mogul and the Touch, I want the Mogul. Well, I DO want the Touch because its thinner, but I couldn't stand using a touch-screen keyboard with my fingers (or even worse, a stylus). I need a separate keyboard that doesn't take up any screen space while browsing.
What I'm curious about is this: Are the touchscreens on the Mogul and the Touch actually different? Forget dimensions etc., but i mean in terms of the technology, are they the same? If they are the same, then all the current hacks to try to turn the Mogul into a Touch-like phone will eventually (who knows how long) mature enough to work almost identically, is that correct?
madador03 said:
If they are the same, then all the current hacks to try to turn the Mogul into a Touch-like phone will eventually (who knows how long) mature enough to work almost identically, is that correct?
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They are indeed the same, last I checked. There was a rumor that the touch would be multi-touch (ala Iphone), but clearly that wasn't true. The term "touch" merely relates to the suite of touch-centric software that actually sits on top of WM.
That's right, there's nothing fancy about the touch that you can't do with the same software. That software, I'd like to add, has already been extracted as .cab files that can be installed on virtually ANY WM5 or WM6 HTC pocket pc.
So, I don't know what this "maturing" is that you're talking about, or why you think it would be "almost" identical... its the same darned thing!!!
The stuff that's being developed currently is to take it beyond the touch, and more like the finger scrolling iPhone interface.
All of the stuff, I'd like to point out again, sits on TOP of Windows Mobile, meaning its just a program that can sometimes get in the way of how WM was actually designed to work.
Sometimes its convenient to have, but in general, I find any of the touch / finger / iphone add ons to be more trouble than their worth, and that goes for the ACTUAL htc touch as well!!
Dishe said:
They are indeed the same, last I checked. There was a rumor that the touch would be multi-touch (ala Iphone), but clearly that wasn't true. The term "touch" merely relates to the suite of touch-centric software that actually sits on top of WM.
That's right, there's nothing fancy about the touch that you can't do with the same software. That software, I'd like to add, has already been extracted as .cab files that can be installed on virtually ANY WM5 or WM6 HTC pocket pc.
So, I don't know what this "maturing" is that you're talking about, or why you think it would be "almost" identical... its the same darned thing!!!
The stuff that's being developed currently is to take it beyond the touch, and more like the finger scrolling iPhone interface.
All of the stuff, I'd like to point out again, sits on TOP of Windows Mobile, meaning its just a program that can sometimes get in the way of how WM was actually designed to work.
Sometimes its convenient to have, but in general, I find any of the touch / finger / iphone add ons to be more trouble than their worth, and that goes for the ACTUAL htc touch as well!!
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Um... please show me where I can download the touchflo interface that works exactly like the touch. All the versions I've gotten require the use of buttons instead of touch, and are extremely buggy. If you you know of a cab that gives the mogul all the touchflo features, by all means let me know...
my suggestion, if you have Sprint...wait
Sprint's versio of the HTC Touch is apparently due out in November. It'll be only a matter of time before someone extracts those cabs and/or creates a new touch-based, CDMA-based rom that can be more easily ported to the mogul.
I for one am interested in the new on screen keyboard interfacethe new touch is supposed to have...
I tried using the other method to get the home-brewed (button-based) touch, but I ran into a few problems and uninstalled.
Quick question.
Does or can wm6 support multi touch hardware?
The touch from sprint will have twice the memory (128mb ram) - i don't know about you guys, but I'm constantly filling up the supposed 64mb realistic 47mb really 17mb after cache/etc of memory that this device has...
-mark
Is the iPhone the only one with a multi-touch interface? What is the next phone that will have it?
while the gigantic 4.3" helps in making everything finger (or even foot) friendly, its still a windows mobile device. and many of the apps require some precision are written to be used with a stylus. i cant imagine using "Pocket Artist" or copy and pasting text using my finger on a WM device.
You guys think that this will be a problem with this device.
it's not a problem on the iphone, why should it be a problem on a device with a bigger screen? I don't remember ever using the stylus on my HD...never needed it. I don't expect I'll need it on this device either
twisted-pixel said:
it's not a problem on the iphone, why should it be a problem on a device with a bigger screen?
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Because iPhone applications are written on the assumption that they are being used on an iPhone without a stylus. Plenty of Windows Mobile apps are written on the assumption that you are using a stylus; this includes a number of utilities built into the operating system.
I used the Leo ROM on my Xperia X1 and can say as long as you stay inside windows (or said different inside the shipped software) you won't get any problems, its very finger friendly and I never went down to an old wm 6 skin. concerns are only there if you want to use some 3rd party software. there might be a problem with finger usage like said above or somewhere else as they don't have to be finger optimized.
Personally - I think it will be fine. Also with later revisions of WM6.5 and then hopefully WM7 I think the phone will get easier IF there are any issues. The issues will only occur when you come out of the HTC Sense layer anyway, which won't be that often.
I thought HTC patented the capacitive stylus?
Lack of stylus will not be a issue at all with that huge screen...I think. We see when its in our hands. Hope it will be very soon
I'm using a TyTN II and almost never dig out the stylus. Over time I moved to apps that were finger friendly. And with the current design trends, I'm guessing even more apps will become available that don't require a stylus.
-Bob-
12aon said:
I thought HTC patented the capacitive stylus?
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afaik yes but on no pics can you find where it is placed i think and then they will probably release it with a largish price tag like the car dock...
All of you who are using resistive screens with LEO ROM, your impressions are worthless (regarding how the LEO ROM will behave on the real HD2) because resistive screens are more accurate than capacitive screens, even if you use just your finger (not to mention you can still use fingernail with resistive).
HTC said that since the LEO has capacitive screen, it can not operate well without the new MANILA, and for that reason, they said that they didn't give an option to disable MANILA, and went even further to say that if some programer will try to disable it, they did everything they could in order for him to find it "very challenging".
Noam23 said:
All of you who are using resistive screens with LEO ROM, your impressions are worthless (regarding how the LEO ROM will behave on the real HD2) because resistive screens are more accurate than capacitive screens, even if you use just your finger (not to mention you can still use fingernail with resistive).
HTC said that since the LEO has capacitive screen, it can not operate well without the new MANILA, and for that reason, they said that they didn't give an option to disable MANILA, and went even further to say that if some programer will try to disable it, they did everything they could in order for him to find it "very challenging".
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What makes you say this? There have been plenty off leo roms out that seem to leave that function intact
Noam23 said:
All of you who are using resistive screens with LEO ROM, your impressions are worthless (regarding how the LEO ROM will behave on the real HD2) because resistive screens are more accurate than capacitive screens, even if you use just your finger (not to mention you can still use fingernail with resistive).
HTC said that since the LEO has capacitive screen, it can not operate well without the new MANILA, and for that reason, they said that they didn't give an option to disable MANILA, and went even further to say that if some programer will try to disable it, they did everything they could in order for him to find it "very challenging".
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I don't use my Touch Diamond's stylus, and the Touch Diamond has a much smaller screen so I think the huge screen of the HD2, coupled with the capacitive touch sensivity, should be fine.
And if that second bit is true, I'm surprised because that means they went to the trouble of making it easy to disable TouchFLO 3D and TouchFLO on older devices...
And if that second bit is true, I'm surprised because that means they went to the trouble of making it easy to disable TouchFLO 3D and TouchFLO on older devices...
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True, because the TouchFLO 3D and TouchFLO were sold on devices with *resistive* screens, these devices can handle Windows Mobile screens without any trouble. The HD2 on the other hand has the capacitive screen, and HTC knows that operating the WM UI with such device is going to be a problem, such a problem that no one even believe capacitive will reach WM before version 7.0, yet HTC came with the MANILA 2.5 solution, so I can very much understand them when they say they don't want you to defeat MANILA 2.5.
O2 are offering me this phone as an upgrade. I need a decent keyboard and am loathed to part with my TP2!
Does anyone have any experience of using any of the screen "keyboards" for emails etc? If so, can it really replace the hardware keyboard?
May be a silly question, I don`t know much about different screen types but cant you just use another stylus instead of your finger? I always have a pen/stylus in my pocket at work and never use the provided stylus with my HD
kjt57 said:
May be a silly question, I don`t know much about different screen types but cant you just use another stylus instead of your finger? I always have a pen/stylus in my pocket at work and never use the provided stylus with my HD
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You need a special kind of stylus for capacitive screens.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-CAPACITIV...ries_MobilePhoneBatteries?hash=item2ea897a251
Noam23 said:
All of you who are using resistive screens with LEO ROM, your impressions are worthless (regarding how the LEO ROM will behave on the real HD2) because resistive screens are more accurate than capacitive screens, even if you use just your finger (not to mention you can still use fingernail with resistive).
HTC said that since the LEO has capacitive screen, it can not operate well without the new MANILA, and for that reason, they said that they didn't give an option to disable MANILA, and went even further to say that if some programer will try to disable it, they did everything they could in order for him to find it "very challenging".
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Click to collapse
Very interesting information Noam23. Being able to use a phone effectively with your finger most of the time when you have to use your finger all of the time is not acceptable to me.
I also have the same issue mentioned in your other post where I would want to turn off Manila/HTC-Sense. The fact that they've tried to prevent this proves how unusable WM6.5 is on a capacitive screen.
Oh well, that's just saved me a lot of money!
Can't help but think everyone is being a little binary here
The UI is the launch pad for the device ... It will be possible to disable TouchFlo3D. HTC were probably saying this to detract people from the ever present concerns with exposure to the native OS UI.
All the other apps you use on the device have their own UI. Once launched, it is almost (back to that in a moment) irrelevant what the OS UI is. The concern will be if those desktop class apps we love on WM in spite of WM itself are not easy to use on the HD2.
I don't see many apps I have that will be a problem ... infact, the only ones would be Resco Explorer, utilities like SKtools, data entry tools like Softmaker Office and PhatNotes (although I'll probably be ok with the on screen keyboard given the capacitive touch and size of display ... and for laptop 'replacement' use, I'll use the BT Stowaway keyboard and mouse) and drawing tools .... which some I'm sure want .... I personally (and therefore subjective) have never used them ... so it isn't an issue for me.
It is true to say that PI and Flexmail could do with more focus on touch ... and given the iPhone apps Alex was working on (I'm a little out of date) ... I'm sure that will come soon.
Also .. I'm not sure if it waning enthusiasm or a change of focus ... but having used PI extensively for years ... when using Mobile Shell 3 and things like PocketBreeze, I realised I rarely went to PI any more .... With FlexMail ... it is a superb product ... but it always had problems with storage ... and after the WM client supported HTML ... it was less needed ... with TF3D ... again ... makes it even easier ... so PI will remain for micro text month view and tasks ... FM will remain for when I need to do complex searches of mail (a real weakness of the native clients on all phones), but I will rarely touch them in normal daily use.
So ... although I resisted the 'hype' around capacitive ... and thought a stylus would always be needed .... in practice ... I'd like to get an HTC capacitive stylus if it ever makes it off the drawing board ... but I doubt I'll really need one.
I used to always want the keyboard ... but after having 4 TyTNs and 3 TyTNIIs respectively before I got one that didn't have some keyboard or mech / ribbon issue .... and the TP2 that had the loose mech issue ... I finally decided I wanted to simplify all mechanical bits ... so I'm looking forward to the HD2. I like others think the 5 buttons + the rocker will allow aebutton+ control where needed in older games.
And the benefit to the Capacitive screen for me will be a smoother more responsive touch (I'm not commenting of accuracy ... because no one that hasn't used it can really comment ... and they certainly can't comment on what it maybe like if and when the HTC Stylus comes out ... if it does) .... and it should also be less reflective ... and therefore clearer in different light conditions ... and it will have a harder surface ... which will (to me) feel better.
So in summary ... given TF3D or MS3.5 will cover most of the OS UI requirements ... as well as the front end to native apps which are touch optimised and most of the big apps I will use will be fine with their own UI ... I think the HD2 with it's display and external simplicity has hit the market at the right time and will in practise be more than fine for everyone happy with a device this size that doesn't need drawing apps on day one.
I also suspect that the internal 512M + a good fast 16 or 32 GB MicroSDHC will more than meet the requirements of the WM7 1 chassis .... and in a year or 18 months ... when I have itchy feet .... I will get a ROM from XDA .... that will rejuvinate the machine ... I can't say this for certain ... and no one at present can say it will or won't be a possibility ...
Mine is on order for Clove ... it is genuinely the first time I've been excited about a WM device since the TyTNII was announced ...
Moandal said:
Very interesting information Noam23. Being able to use a phone effectively with your finger most of the time when you have to use your finger all of the time is not acceptable to me.
I also have the same issue mentioned in your other post where I would want to turn off Manila/HTC-Sense. The fact that they've tried to prevent this proves how unusable WM6.5 is on a capacitive screen.
Oh well, that's just saved me a lot of money!
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Maybe you should try it before drawing any conclusions?
Really interested in seeing how Opera performs on the HD2 and whether or not clicking links is difficult.
It's easy to tap small links on the iphone, why should it be difficult on the HD2? All this "it won't be possible to use because of the capacitive screen" debate is just FUD, IMO.
Hi Guys,
Just wanted to know from those who are moving from HD to HD2.. how are you guys coping without a stylus??
I am so much in a habit to pull out the stylus from the blackstone...
Are the OK and the X easy to press... scroll bar??
Thanks guys!!
Having moved from a HD to a HD2 about six weeks ago (with 1st batch from Clove Tech) I have one reply for you "what's a stylus ?"
Seriously, it's very good. I have moved to using the Resco keyboard as the standard one is too sensitive and sometimes I use Swype which is amazingly accurate.
So far, I only miss the little metal pointy thing for SPB finance (vintage 2008) which really needs a stylus for operation. But, I'm now using http://sites.google.com/site/maximusmobileproject/Current-Apps/winmoFinance which seems a good alternative.
So, here's one delighted user that the stylus is gone. Second-hand HD with spare stylus anyone ?
Never used my stylus on my HD so not missing it at all. The down arrows in certain menus are a little tricky to operate some times (like changing the text message notification) but if you get the screen alignment right then you get it used where to press. But then, that's the OS problem rather than the phone so when WM7 comes along hopefully it'll all be great!
Moved from a Xperia, which is not useable without stylus, to HD2.
No problem.
well, just fine sometimes I hit the wrong thing, but now I'm adjusted to the sensitivity, I feel that I can text easier than on my iphone. I don't notice anything in the GUI that winmob was designed for a stylus. well,not really, though
Totally agree with the above, and I too came from a HD to a HD2, but had a very similar ROM on the HD, and had already got that as finger friendly as possible, so not much of a transition.
With respect to one particular question...
prateekgujral said:
scroll bar??
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Oh they're actually fun to use! It goes wider where you put your thumb on it, so it's actually easier to use than it was with a stylus!
Sounds good.. thanks
I came to the HD2, from an Athena (X7500) for me the lack of a stylus has turned out to be a big issue*, I cannot enter data reliability nor use applications such as Cash Organizer or Pocket Informant reliably. It is a fine media phone though. I rather hope that the rumoured HTC patented stylus may be a help here
*(This is an opinion, because it may differ from other peoples opinion, it does not make me a Troll, Stupid, or a member of a vast anti-Windows-Mobile conspracy)
Coming from a Kaiser to Leo I thought I would miss both hardware keyboard and stylus, truth is I have missed neither. My typing speed is still not as quick but is getting better all the time.
I had an HTC Touch and then an MDA Compact IV (HTC Diamond). Of course, I still go for the stylus (conditioned reflex) but always realise that I really do not need it. I was very apprehensive when I ordered the HD2 but the apprehension vanished when I tried to use it without the stylus. No need for it at all. I even ported my Sudoku Mastersoft 2.0 and play it every time with no problem! It's true that, eventually, you come across bits that need a stylus and where finger pinching does not work, but that's once every 99 times you use the HD2. Fear not. Go for it. And take advantage of all the .cabs available here. I dowloaded a dozen of them, so had no need to touch the registry.
I've been using Touch Pro for more than a year now. After around 7 months I stopped using the stylus completely, even for Solitare. Without any problems.
HD2 is going to come to me next week and there is no way it could be worce, since it has a capacitive and huuuuuge screen.
Don't worry / don't hesitate to get one.
Using HD2 for 3 weeks. At first I thought I'd go to buy the HD2 stylus as soon as it is available, but now I have second thoughts.
Yes, it is much easier to work with a stylus. Even after practice, the finger is not as precise. Working with Listpro is a really difficult when I have narrow columns that shows exactly a checkbox. I hope listpro will soon release its finger friendly version, or another product will attract me to leave listpro.
I think many "old" applications will have similar troubles. Even some of the Windows screen (like the Connections setting screen) have small UI elements and are not really finger friendly. I can only hope things will improve in the future.
At first, the capacitive screen (and thus the lack of stylus) was a factor that nearly drove me to buy Omnia II instead of HD2. I still am not convinced whether one of these two devices is better than the other, but I heard the WM7 is going to be capacitve and so finger is the future.
PS: for legacy applications, it is very difficult to control the scroll bar when the list is long. When the list is short (say 100 entries), the finger sized scroll button is rather good to use. For big pages (say 300 entries, or the help file of swype), I found that it is nearly impossible to scroll. The list keep jumping around uncontrollably. For big lists, I am forced to use the swype page up page down buttons.
Within Sense UI it is very easy to use finger-only. Once you jump into WM it can get difficult to hit certain lists/buttons.
I have my HD2 for about38 days already. In the first week I was hunting high and low for a stylus and eventually bought 2 types ( meant for iphone). However I found is a waste of money as it takes a lot of hard presses to get the stylus working well; so both stylus gone into the trash can. Then I realized I just need to "exercise" my fingers to make best use of it. I am proud to say now I do not miss the stylus and I find that my finger presses had improved dramatically and accuracy of keys input is 99.99 % and pretty fast. I was on Swype for keyboard input for about 2 weeks ( a fantastic piece of software - highly recommended). However now I go back to use the default touch input for normal use as I have now find it very easy to use now. I now swype only for cases needing lots of data input .
Has the HTC HD2 Capacitive Stylus been released yet ?
I see it's being advertised here:
http://www.clove.co.uk/viewProduct.aspx?product=83E47B82-89E5-4C33-95D5-84F7AE3C3F50
no problem without stylus at all if somebedy have problems with any app, you can add this app to pinch to zoom whitelist, and than just zoom in and click on it
i sometimes miss my stylus, there is really a problem but others advantages of finger scrolling make no turning back! i have accepted the inconveniences!
can't play All Mobile Minesweeper anymore... and many other games...
Moved from the SE X1 where I did use my finger for some things (even typing with FingerKeyboard - brilliant piece of software). Haven't missed the stylus much except for using TotalCommander which can be a real pain!
Most of the time it is OK. But I wish there was an accurate stylus. All Mobile Mines was a favourite of mine. I find Total Commander impossible to use. Data on the Run 5 (a database app I use to record all my books) is a swine to use, as it is designed for stylus. Some apps do not show a scroll bar that expands, so are very difficult (Opera for one!) Zooming in can be hit and miss, and can zoom back out when you do not want it to.
Keyboard is OK (but I was quicker on hx4700) when desensitised (I use BsB 1.6).
Sense UI is very clever, but the icons are huge "off the shelf" and waste so much space.
I really miss easy access to task manager; on my hx4700 I used Magic Button but it is not happy with WM6.5, and I don't want more memory hoggers running. The small icons it creates for runing programs are too easy to miss-hit, and WM6.5 could not show as many as WM2003SE, so it was pointless using it. Now I have Task Manager shortcut in my home screen to switch between progs. I have not found a 16 icon home screen fix that works for me, but it is to my mind a must.
Hi There!
Is pinch to zoom functionality available on this phone at all? Even via 3rd party roms etc?
i saw a little novelty app somewhere where it was kinda working. but no one has it in a rom or anything for everyday use.
I think this is something you can only fudge on a diamond 2 as the screen is not capacitive like the iPhone
Yeah, the hardware and even the underlying OS doesn't support multiple touches on the screen. There may well be efforts to fake it, but I can't imagine they work very well.
That said, I've always though pinch zoom was more effort to use than a zoom bar or doubleclick anyway.
now the Zoom bar itself is capacitive...go figure
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_Touch_Diamond2
check this video out. mutli-touch on resistive is def possible, no one is doin it though. cool video.
http://www.viddler.com/explore/engadget/videos/292/
i've just read about sdk that allow smartphone with windows mobile and resistive screen to have multi-touch.
now the question:
is there a similar project for android device like tattoo?
rossonero92 said:
i've just read about sdk that allow smartphone with windows mobile and resistive screen to have multi-touch.
now the question:
is there a similar project for android device like tattoo?
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Click to collapse
ralle.gade is currently working on including this in his kernel for Kiljacken's ROM
No,
ralle.gade don't work with MT now, becouse we have to wait when Wildfire kernel releases..
i see
i wish it comes fast
it isn't a real MT.. just emulating it thrugh the sw.
a real multi-touch is impossible and I think is very hard dev a software to do it..
we'd need a "hook" (maybe a "+" on the screen) to hang the position of the finger and then do the second move to do something (like rotate images..)
Wikipedia says resisting screens can support multi touch along with this reference
www.umpcportal.com/2009/02/multi-touch-comes-to-resistive-touchscreens/
I've even found that this company 'stantum' is also developing multi touch for resistive screens
i.engadget.com/2009/02/19/stantums-mind-blowing-multitouch-interface-on-video/
It basically requires the device to understand the position of both fingers along the XY coordinates and then process them accordingly.
Sent from my HTC Tattoo using XDA App
any news about MT?
hello man, the problem is that the screen hw tattoo is kind of capability, and is a hardware limitation to not support multitouch,
you could try to emulate it via sw but from what my experience is of counsel to give up, too much work for an outcome that would at most just enough
... and that is why tattoo is so cheap