Database Users

Google's Android - why isnt there more development for this?

http://code.google.com/android/
incase anyones not familiar with android, check that site out.
im not sure why there isnt more development or developers that are going after this in terms of getting it working on all devices? im currently using it on my vogue and its amazing. definately better UI in terms of EVERYTHING. its open source, so i think developers should be all over this! has so much potential its kind of ridiculous
vogue thread
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=382265
its working about 80% now thanks to amazing developer martin.
the browser and everything (overall UI) are so much better and smoother than windows mobile! and being that its open source with google ENCOURAGING development of apps and themes and skins and whatnot, i think this is the next best thing to happen to ppc's.
THIS is the actual iphone killer.
just some samples
on a vogue (very smooth)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0z9bWiAT44
just a demo of the browser (mine is actually a little smoother than this)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2FpDDEVWtk
the reason im posting this here is because i was the first one to post in this section with manilla2d (when udk first released it), asking whether we can get this on other devices, and look what happened with that. if we can get the amazing developers from here to work on this like they worked on m2d, then wow this will be amazing!

Yeah, even I'm suprised at the low level of excitement of porting this to all devices. Hoping for some real development . Btw, those videos are pretty impressive.
Akshay

Yeah... I'm a little surprised too.
I have a Vogue now, so I'm OK, but I'd love to see somebody pick this project up for the Touch Pro. It seems to be very similar to the G1, so the porting would be a lot more complete than the porting to the Vogue.
Hopefully somebody with the skills (read: not me) will undertake this.

it'll pick up. i say in 6 months to a year people will snap out of the apple app dev craze. but from a dev point of view, apple is where its at right now. the amount of money you could make is a driver by all means.
htc will also be a key part in this. when they start to release better looking hardware, perhaps something on par with the diamond....you'll see a user increase. and user increase translate into dev interest. so just hang in there....i think you'll get what you want soon.

A ppc that works only on 80 Percent ? And no additional Software, no outlook syncronisation? Thats at the moment somthing for freaks or people with a second device
If there would be a 100 Percent Android i would install it, believe me, because i´m not very happy with windows anymore.
So i think we must wait and hope.
My next Device in half a year will be hopefully the Touch HD with Android rolleyes

because it makes no sense to port androud to a phone that is not 3G with GPS.
the only advantage of the g phone that I saw was the service. 3G and free GPS! i'm like, how much for the puppy in the window?
I honestly think that porting it to my wizard would be senseless.
without the service the gphone is just a phone wothout service.

S.V.I said:
because it makes no sense to port androud to a phone that is not 3G with GPS.
the only advantage of the g phone that I saw was the service. 3G and free GPS! i'm like, how much for the puppy in the window?
I honestly think that porting it to my wizard would be senseless.
without the service the gphone is just a phone wothout service.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Of course it is always pointless. We do it because we can (and because we don't want to do anything while at work)
(and much like bluemetal, we are all tired of the same old look and functionality in our WM devices). Then again, it can always be worse....
we could all have iphones
Anyways, I am looking forward to someone porting this to the Blue Angel.

The bigest stumbling block for me is lack of Exchange support. GPS isn't really necessary with the cell tower triangulation available. The accuracy is getting better. It will never be as tight as GPS but close is good enough for me. I can do with out 3G (I wish I had it) I don't enjoy the experience with the little screen. It's like looking at the ocean through a porthole. A 5 inch screen with much better resolution would be great. I use it for quick info but surfing is not fun.
I do like the idea of going linux on the phone. It would be that much closer to having a truely mobile desktop. We wouldn't have to install resource hogging shells that ride on top of an already bloated today screen to get better customization.
I think the biggest problem overall though is the hardware needed will put a lot of older equipment like my little wizard out to pasture. I don't have the funds to rush out an purchase a new phone. And yes I think all the bugs will need to be shaken out for a while before I take the plunge. Maybe by the 2nd or third generation of Android things will be a little less "bleeding edge". It all looks great now but I rely on my phone too much to gamble on an untried system.

To be completely honest, I too am suprised by the lack of progress.
This is a complete replacement for Windows Mobile: something we've all only dreamed about up until now. It will have a wicked Dev community around it soon enough.
There were a hell of a lot of efforts to get the Beta running. But now... nothing?
*so confused
The worst part is, it'd be gorgeous on my LG KS20, but I doubt we'll see it anytime soon: no one loves us KS20 owners. Guess you were all just jealous of our drivers.

bluemetalaxe said:
A ppc that works only on 80 Percent ? And no additional Software, no outlook syncronisation? Thats at the moment somthing for freaks or people with a second device
If there would be a 100 Percent Android i would install it, believe me, because i´m not very happy with windows anymore.
So i think we must wait and hope.
My next Device in half a year will be hopefully the Touch HD with Android rolleyes
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i don't know if you read my whole post, but i never said "hey everyone lets run something 80% finished on our ppcs."
waiting and hoping isnt going to do anything, thats why i started this thread. to get more attention instead of sitting and waiting for something we arent sure is going to ever happen.
im glad a lot of other people are on the same page as me, wondering why there is barely any development for this. thanks for the support guys
lets get some devs in here to weigh in on this!

Well, there's a number of quite simple reasons...
- Porting Android to another device isn't as simple as "Hey, it's Open Source, you just have to compile and install". First of all, you'd need to find a working cross compiler for ARM in the first place (one using Windows' API, like those used for PPC apps isn't much help). Then you'd need to write drivers for usually undocumented hardware with this cross compiler or in ARM assembler (reusing existing WM drivers, like in cooked ROMs, wouldn't work in Linux). Finally, you need to find a way to flash that system to your PPC (that's a bit more work than a patched/cooked variation of an already existing WM ROM), and so on. That's work for the kind of freaks who would do their taxes binary in mind...
- Writing apps for a system almost nobody own so far isn't that attractive. It's even less attractive if the potential developer doesn't own one - the real experience is always a bit different to an emulator, and usually would like some use for himself, too (what good is an mobile app for you if you'd need a laptop with emulator to use it? ). So far, there's only one official Android device out there, and aside from the fact it's still a bit "first try, for developers only" (no Outlook sync, ugly design, ...), you only get it in very few parts of the world or in overpriced eBay auctions. Inofficial ports with reduced functionality and maybe buggy or slow "beta" drivers aren't that great, too...
- While the Android API is quite close to common Java style, it's still something completely new, which requires some time to get into the framework's basic style, the available functions, the loopholes and small tricks, etc. With WM, the gap to common Windows (desktop) programming is way smaller, and I guess it's similar with the iPhone and Mac programming.
Or, in other words: Give Andoid some time to grow up. IMHO, G1 and the few existing ports are a playground for hackers and early adopters, so they can get startet with fixing (security holes, missing functionality, ...). Then, in some months, more devices with a "hacker improved" Android will be published, and when developers buy those, they also will start writing apps if they are missing something.

you'd think more people would be starting to port.. because god is that g1 terrible, you have to have sharpened pencils for fingers to type on that flush keyboard)

Mort said:
Well, there's a number of quite simple reasons...
- Porting Android to another device isn't as simple as "Hey, it's Open Source, you just have to compile and install". First of all, you'd need to find a working cross compiler for ARM in the first place (one using Windows' API, like those used for PPC apps isn't much help). Then you'd need to write drivers for usually undocumented hardware with this cross compiler or in ARM assembler (reusing existing WM drivers, like in cooked ROMs, wouldn't work in Linux). Finally, you need to find a way to flash that system to your PPC (that's a bit more work than a patched/cooked variation of an already existing WM ROM), and so on. That's work for the kind of freaks who would do their taxes binary in mind...
- Writing apps for a system almost nobody own so far isn't that attractive. It's even less attractive if the potential developer doesn't own one - the real experience is always a bit different to an emulator, and usually would like some use for himself, too (what good is an mobile app for you if you'd need a laptop with emulator to use it? ). So far, there's only one official Android device out there, and aside from the fact it's still a bit "first try, for developers only" (no Outlook sync, ugly design, ...), you only get it in very few parts of the world or in overpriced eBay auctions. Inofficial ports with reduced functionality and maybe buggy or slow "beta" drivers aren't that great, too...
- While the Android API is quite close to common Java style, it's still something completely new, which requires some time to get into the framework's basic style, the available functions, the loopholes and small tricks, etc. With WM, the gap to common Windows (desktop) programming is way smaller, and I guess it's similar with the iPhone and Mac programming.
Or, in other words: Give Andoid some time to grow up. IMHO, G1 and the few existing ports are a playground for hackers and early adopters, so they can get startet with fixing (security holes, missing functionality, ...). Then, in some months, more devices with a "hacker improved" Android will be published, and when developers buy those, they also will start writing apps if they are missing something.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ok now these reasons make a lot of sense. im just surprised that not as many people are trying to get it started so they can get started on fixing, like you said. but ok, all of your other reasons make complete sense. im sure the future releases of android will only get better.
android just seems like exactly what many of us have been looking for in wm devices, basically, a complete UI replacement endorsed/created by a large company (other than microsoft lol).

jakub_w said:
im just surprised that not as many people are trying to get it started so they can get started on fixing, like you said.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Who knows? AFAIK, the order numbers aren't that bad, and all those reviewers give some feedback, too. I mean, it's only a week since the G1 is available at all, and, as said, it's not very attractive so far. Not everybody wants to spend hundreds of dollars just to provide Google with requests and code changes and T-Mobile and HTC with money...
android just seems like exactly what many of us have been looking for in wm devices, basically, a complete UI replacement endorsed/created by a large company (other than microsoft lol).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think the UI is the really big thing about Android. You can even replace it completely, and I don't know (yet) where the limits / design guides are for applications. I just hope it doesn't get as confusing as Linux on the desktop, where even a Gnome or KDE desktop can be modified so far that it's almost as hard to switch distros as switching from Windows to MacOS...
The important things about Android are more in the basic technology, imho, like
- A stable, timeless system core (*nix is older than me, so "modern" is not quite correct - that goes for MacOS X, too, btw...)
- Seamless integration of connection management and phone functions (opposed to WM, where it still acts like a makeshift patchwork, and with every update less APIs are working...)
- Portable application framework (Java, lots of system APIs)
- Simple application installation (no "is this EXE a PC setup or the PPC executable?", "How the hell do I install a CAB file?", ...)
However, I still wonder how/if Andoid will support direct PC synchronization (for shared files, contacts, appointments, music, ...) and how fast and memory consumptive the required Java VM is... (Well, at least none of the G1 reviews I read complained about that, so it seems to be faster than .NET on WM...)

i was just playing around with android and in the dev tools or api demos theres a section called opengl es. i have a vogue and i tried these, they ran extremely smoothly. isnt this something that everyone has been saying is impossible? (specifically for getting tf3d to run on the vogue) i think this proves that software driven 3d is more than capable of handling tf3d. just a thought.

jakub_w said:
i was just playing around with android and in the dev tools or api demos theres a section called opengl es. i have a vogue and i tried these, they ran extremely smoothly. isnt this something that everyone has been saying is impossible? (specifically for getting tf3d to run on the vogue) i think this proves that software driven 3d is more than capable of handling tf3d. just a thought.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I definitely agree with you on that. Thing is though is that this is a completely different environment with a different set of drivers (and rules) which makes (for example) modifying their parameters to allow for keys normally used for certain functions in WM to be used for something completely different. Also OpenGL (ES) is all that is used on *nix OSes whether or not they run on full or embedded hardware. All that's needed is the driver for the graphics chip. Microsoft wants you to use their proprietary D3D not OpenGL (ES) hence why it was impossible to have OpenGL (ES) before. Also TF3D uses DirectX and not OpenGL ES AFAIK.
Android is great. Only thing I need is a way to get the SDcard image working and a HTC Touch Pro to port Android, Angstrom and/or OpenMoko to, I'd be set.

why would you develop software for an operating system that isn't even fully ported yet?

joel2009 said:
why would you develop software for an operating system that isn't even fully ported yet?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Weeell....
- It's Linux and Open Source (some people wouldn't touch a closed system with a stick...)
- It's nice to be prepared when you get the running system
- There is a device with that OS
- The documentation is way better than Microsoft's
- There's a good chance the API will remain compatible, so it doesn't hurt to start early (opposed to WM, where some basic features can/could only be done with device dependant or inofficial APIs, which were dropped in newer updates...)

Wannabe developer needs help from the pros!

Hello there,
I'm a relativelly experienced software developer and im looking to develop applications for the smartphone ambient.
The thing is... i don't know the first thing about smartphones OS other than who the big boys are, so... this is where the actual knowledgeable guys come in...
I need help with some questions:
1) Which is more developer friendly (IDE, libraries, languages, allowing for custom applications, etc)?
2) How much support is there for developing great eye candy applications in each major smartphone OS? Or just state the one with the best support for cool looking applications.
3) I heard that in Windows mobile you better code in .NET or C++ or you're screwed... Is there really no better alternative?
4) What other languages / framework can one use in Symbian, RIM, IPhone?

I'm not a WinMo dev (yet?) but I can answer a few of these questions.
2. iPhone strives to have a consistently beautiful OS by providing easy to use APIs for GUI creation. Since every app uses the same APIs, they all have the same smooth scrolling action and animations. As far as I know, Windows Mobile does not have APIs for a consistently good looking UI. So far, every app I've seen uses its own implementation of finger scrolling, even within HTC's own apps.
3. What alternatives are you thinking of? If you want to use Java, you could code for J2ME and Jbed. They don't look as good as native apps though, are less flexible, and tend to have greater overhead. Not great for mobile devices.

Soaa- said:
I'm not a WinMo dev (yet?) but I can answer a few of these questions.
2. iPhone strives to have a consistently beautiful OS by providing easy to use APIs for GUI creation. Since every app uses the same APIs, they all have the same smooth scrolling action and animations. As far as I know, Windows Mobile does not have APIs for a consistently good looking UI. So far, every app I've seen uses its own implementation of finger scrolling, even within HTC's own apps.
3. What alternatives are you thinking of? If you want to use Java, you could code for J2ME and Jbed. They don't look as good as native apps though, are less flexible, and tend to have greater overhead. Not great for mobile devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you that was really helpfull. Whats your take on Symbian or Android?

Soaa- said:
2. iPhone strives to have a consistently beautiful OS by providing easy to use APIs for GUI creation. Since every app uses the same APIs, they all have the same smooth scrolling action and animations. As far as I know, Windows Mobile does not have APIs for a consistently good looking UI. So far, every app I've seen uses its own implementation of finger scrolling, even within HTC's own apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For the record, 6.5 has gestures support (including kinetic scrolling) built in so it will work across all applications.

For all members who've been putting their eyes on questions in the Dev&Hack section. it is now ALLOWED to ask development related questions in the D&H section while all other questions go in the Q&A section.
cheers

Noone who can give me a quick rundown on these OS's?
Thaks in advance.

SEE....
http://www.smorgasbordet.com/pellesc/
http://www.trajectorylabs.com/win32.html

This is the most I've been able to turn up in any of my searches, least in terms of an API for common GUI controls.
http://fluid.codeplex.com/
Haven't had much time to play with it lately tho. Hopefully that will change toward the end of next month.
*EDIT*
Then theres also the non free stuff.
http://www.resco.net/developer/default.aspx

A g-sensor / accelerometer game idea

I'm sorry, but I did not know where to put this.
Anyways, I had an idea (like everyone does) for a new game for the G-sensor on the Omnia, or any other devise that its supported in. Loco Roco has been available for download on ppc's for a while now, and I thought it would make the game much nicer if it was g-sensor... Because I failed my coding class (Our teacher didn't expplain anything, I was hoping that some developer out there could try to make this possible.
If the game doesnt have open source, maybe someone could make a game like it? It would be fairly easy... just tilt a ball down paths to complete the level.
Here are some examples of what the game could be like:
Something like this (Overtilting = death due to gravity):
http://www.vx4.com/puzzle-games/funky-ball.html
Loco Roco (Something like the landscape, where you tilt to get through multiple paths & collect things):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcDdLnq2x-I
FlashBall:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvUbbSYAVDk
or
Falldown:
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/falldown2
I know a lot of you are sick of ball accelerometer games, but I think these would work smoothly, and be very fun.
Any developer who will take up the idea, I will do I can to help (Which isn't much, but, hey.)
Thanks!
Also, here is a link to the discussion on Samsung-Omnia.org -
http://www.samsung-omnia.org/samsung-omnia-games/new-accelerometer-idea/msg53364/#msg53364

There's locoroco which runs well on up to WVGA version (tested on my touch hd). BUT its java. No g-sensor support

Oh yeah, forgot that its java. Hmm. Well, I'm sure someone can make a nice game like it from scratch with support of others in the community. It would be one sweet g-sensor game.

yeah, i agree. OR, they should somehow make gpad word with java. Anyway, hoepfully once winmo market place comes out, there'll be some really awesome games.

Yeah, I really hope so.
Hey, just a question, will winmo marketplace be available for wm 6.1, or only 6.5+?

its going to be available for 6.5 when it comes out. then by the end of the year, 6.1 would be also supported.

Okay, cool. I'm afraid to put custom roms on my phone... I always think I'ma mess it up.

its really easy actually. if you have an atom device, it would really be easy. if you have htc devices, just one step extra

Any coder out there attempt to make this game? It would be very fun, and I'm sure everyone would appreciate it!

Please?
Cmon guys. Anyone want to make this?
I'm sure many people would donate, including myself
Btw... look what I found
http://www.ebookslab.info/a-g-sensor-accelerometer-game-idea.html
Wierd, eh? Its what I said, but worded a bit different!
Creepy net stalkers!

The Future of Sense

Hi all,
What follows could be considered to be the ramblings of a lunatic however it is intended to provoke discussion and maybe some thought about where we (Sense users/fans) go from here. Personally I know I don't want to see Sense die off (I'm not planning on moving to Android or WinPho 7 any time soon, as you'll read) and my phone (HD2) is only a YEAR old!
The Future of Sense?
Many of us bought our HTC WinMo phones on the strength of Sense (henceforth referred to as Manila to differentiate it from its Android, and Windows Phone 7 "Hub", incarnations), which brought a compelling and attractive interface to ugly old WinMo. Judging by the amount of devices Manila has been (or has been requested to be) ported to it is still a compelling and attractive interface. However users and fans of Manila are now facing a dilemma; Manila is, in all probability reaching, if it hasn't already, the end of its (officially) developed life. Short of any previously unknown major bugs surfacing its not hard to imagine HTC now focusing all their efforts on Android and Windows Phone 7.
So where does this leave us, many of us who still have perfectly functioning phones, which often still have up-to-date hardware? We could, thanks to the guys (with very large brains) here on XDA developers, choose between Windows Phone 7 or Android to give our phones a new lease of life. However, personally (and I know I'm not the only one) I don't want to. Windows phone 7 doesn't appeal because of its lack of customisation (and copying of iOS on so many levels), and Android because of, well, Google! WinMo gives us the freedom to tinker, without the need of "jail breaking", which many of us love WinMo for. Manila is the icing on the cake... and everyone knows the icing is the best bit of the cake!
So where do we go from here?
Organise. Mobilise.
First off I don't want to take anything away from the (quite brilliant) people here on XDA Developers that have already managed (or facilitated others) to do some pretty amazing things with Manila, having extended it far beyond HTCs original scope. However despite all the hard work and effort that has gone into reverse engineering Manila there is still much that is unknown about it and parts we cannot change. If we wish to see Manila grow and develop (further than we already have), to keep our phones current, we need HTCs co-operation, we need the actual Manila source.
But why should HTC help us when they would probably rather us buy new phones? Well, HTC is a business and all good business' like a good deal. So, they've got something we want but what do we have to offer them in return? I believe that Manila has applications outside of Android and Windows Phone 7 (which HTC already have covered, so we can forget about them) so there is still one avenue left to us that we could attempt to try and tempt HTC with...
Swallow the Tablet!
At the moment the tablet market is dominated by iOS and Android but inevitably Microsoft will manage to muscle Windows into the tablet market. It managed it with phones (then, as we all know, lost its way) and more recently it managed to (almost completely) squeeze Linux out of the netbook market. At CES 2011 scores of Windows based tablets were unveiled from manufacturers such as Asus, Lenovo, Viliv and even Samsung! Microsofts desire to muscle its way into yet another market (tablets) with a full fat version of Windows is compounded by the fact that the next version of Windows (8) will support SoC architectures from Intel and ARM. Make no mistake; Whatever your views on the suitability of Windows for tablets, Windows tablets are coming and they will sell. However, lets not get too hung up on tablets, there are still millions upon millions (upon millions!) of PCs out there and sales of PCs are still strong.
But what does this have to do with Manila? Well, I believe Manila would make the perfect lightweight 3D widget engine for Windows and this is where our opportunity lies. HTC currently has a massive presence in smartphones and are now entering the tablet market (currently Android to begin with, but given their ties with Microsoft, in the past with Windows Mobile and now Windows Phone 7, it won't be long before they produce a full fat Windows tablet). However they do not (yet) have a presence, of any kind, on desktops and it is with this that we could tempt them. So, HTC get the opportunity to have a presence PC desktops worldwide and we get to extend the life of our phones that utilise Manila!
Don't forget the presence of "Sense" on the desktop would be a great marketing tool... people see the advertisements for Sense on the TV (as HTC are currently doing in the UK), they give it a try on their computer, like it, and may be inclined to buy a phone with Sense in the future. There are also the opportunities that "Sense" (Manila) on the desktop could tie in with Sense on phones.
To be continued...

Reserved for extra details

I would like to see HTC releasing a new Sense for Windows Mobile, just for the ROM cookers

That would be a nice look - Sense on my desktop as well as my phone - and CHT as well?? Perhaps synchronised so that changing the look of one chnges the other - interesting possibilities

nathanpc said:
I would like to see HTC releasing a new Sense for Windows Mobile, just for the ROM cookers
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi Nathan, thanks for your reply.
However I feel you are missing the point somewhat. HTC wouldn't need to release a new version of Sense, in return for the community driven development of a desktop version of Sense, the continued development of Sense, for Windows Mobile, would also be in our hands.
Ross202 said:
That would be a nice look - Sense on my desktop as well as my phone - and CHT as well?? Perhaps synchronised so that changing the look of one chnges the other - interesting possibilities
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi Ross, thanks for your reply.
That there is a very interesting idea and exactly why I started this thread.
Strictly speaking, with the development of Manila in our hands, we wouldn't need something like CHT because many of the ideas behind CHT would be a part of Manila as standard.
I'm also going to propose a working group (the details of which will appear above shortly) - The Manila Community Working Group - which, I hope, will be made up of some of XDA's greatest independent Sense "developers" (and maybe even HTC? ) so we can thrash out what we would like to see in Sense, how it would work, and how we could achieve many of the feature requests (like your own) that we are going to receive. While the Working Group would be closed a thread would be naturally started to keep everyone abreast of where we currently are.
The more organised we appear the greater the chance of HTC taking us seriously and considering our proposals (and the greater the chance we have of also ensuring the continued development of Manila for our phones).

Could you put out a poll to determine the response. I am into this development, though I am not a developer myself. I've been through many different types of smart and not so smart phones. Manila/Sense is the way to go. In fact in my ROM cooking, any app/settings that could be access through Sense is remove from the Start Menu.
Let's get going

illi said:
Could you put out a poll to determine the response. I am into this development, though I am not a developer myself. I've been through many different types of smart and not so smart phones. Manila/Sense is the way to go. In fact in my ROM cooking, any app/settings that could be access through Sense is remove from the Start Menu.
Let's get going
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi illi, thanks for your reply.
Now thats the kind of enthusiasm I was hoping to see! I think Manila is the perfect way of hiding Windows (on a tablet, or PC) in the same way it does with Windows Mobile on phones.
I imagine a PC based Manila to have three modes of operation:
Widget Mode - Individual widgets can be placed on the desktop
Full Screen - Similar to how Manila works on our phones now with lots of added bells and whistles
Window Mode - Similar to the fullscreen version but in a more compact (borderless) window placeable anywhere on the desktop
In fullscreen or window mode widgets would be placeable on the "Home" tab and/or have their very own tab. The layouts/graphics required for each mode would be described in a single mode9 file.
Well, thats my thoughts, but I encourage anyone with any ideas to share!

*cough* bump *cough*
C'mon guys (and girls?), there must be more than 3 people who'd like to see Manila move beyond their phones and extend the functionality of their (WinMo) phones too?? Only if we can prove to HTC that there is a desire for this that we can consider approaching HTC and be taken seriously. Support for WinMo devices, as we know them, will gradually ebb away and its up to us to unite and take control of our devices? Do you really want your phones to be left behind?
Like I said, I don't want to take anything away from the (very clever) people on here who have already done so much to advance Manila, but its time to pool our resources and work towards the same goal... together.
Now is the time to stand and be counted!

thank you buddy, nice work

DJShadesUK said:
*cough* bump *cough*
C'mon guys (and girls?), there must be more than 3 people who'd like to see Manila move beyond their phones and extend the functionality of their (WinMo) phones too?? Only if we can prove to HTC that there is a desire for this that we can consider approaching HTC and be taken seriously. Support for WinMo devices, as we know them, will gradually ebb away and its up to us to unite and take control of our devices? Do you really want your phones to be left behind?
Like I said, I don't want to take anything away from the (very clever) people on here who have already done so much to advance Manila, but its time to pool our resources and work towards the same goal... together.
Now is the time to stand and be counted!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nice thread. I really think HTC made a revolution with Sense. I bet if microsoft cintinued WM7, HTC would have no doubt released Sense 3.0. It would be brialliant iff we could get a update. Yes i understand your point of getting yhese manilla source files, but what goood will it be? I don't see many developers for WM nowadays on XDA. Most of them have moved on to android, ios, wp7. i think if htc were going to update semse, the first thing they shoul improve is the effiency and usage. Because atm it uses far to many resources.
Nice thread, Look forward to the update

olyloh6696 said:
Nice thread. I really think HTC made a revolution with Sense. I bet if microsoft cintinued WM7, HTC would have no doubt released Sense 3.0. It would be brialliant iff we could get a update. Yes i understand your point of getting yhese manilla source files, but what goood will it be? I don't see many developers for WM nowadays on XDA. Most of them have moved on to android, ios, wp7. i think if htc were going to update semse, the first thing they shoul improve is the effiency and usage. Because atm it uses far to many resources.
Nice thread, Look forward to the update
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for your input.
Yes, it would be nice if we were to get an official update but the chances of that happening don't look good, thats why we need to try and take matters into our own hands. You are completely right about developers leaving WM for other platforms but that is why we need to organise ourselves and present a case to HTC for the independent development of Manila for the Windows and Windows Mobile. The point is if we can get our hand on the Manila source then we can make the Windows Mobile version compatible* with the desktop version then any developments for the desktop version will automatically be available to those of us with Windows Mobile devices. This way we can leverage desktop developers to extend the life of our WM phones for us, developers leaving WM would be so much of an issue.
*Thanks to the similarities between full fat Windows and Windows Mobile its possible to make any supporting (helper) .dll's required by widgets/tabs for the desktop version of Manila compatible with the mobile version.

There must be more people who would like to have their say about this, before this section of XDA becomes a virtual ghost town?

Oops, double post!

Hi DJShadesUK,
Excellent start to a thread, some excellent ideas and thoughts.
I thought I'd keep the discussion on here for now, as it's more likely (hopefully) to continue.
These are just general thoughts, I hope will form into a balanced response by the time I've finished..
1st off, has HTC ever open-sourced anything before?
My impression of the mobile phone industry is that things are closed down due its competitiveness. The exception here of course is Google...but that is because their business model in this industry is totally different.
My thought is although the Sense legacy appears to be closing to an end from HTCs point of view, chances are they won't want to part with it, just in case.
What is in it for them?
As much as I would love to get my hands on the HTC tools used to create and modify things like the mode9 files, it all represents an investment made by HTC which however unlikely could be used by them in the future.
I've been impressed with HTCs handling of Sense being modded though, they could have stirred up a whole heap of trouble for people and locked things down, (I've even heard that a youtube video of CHT on an Energy ROM was going around HTC). Needless to say, they have supported us by not shutting it down and I hope they have gained in return from observing what we do.
There is a whole rats-nest of issues if HTC did decide, ok lets give them out tools and see what happens. Clearly the HTC branding would gain tremendously, I can see Sense being put on TVs, Set Top Boxes and all sorts. It would also show that not only can HTC make brilliant hardware, but they can do the same with the software.
We can only guess what HTCs roadmap involves, but clearly tablets will be there somewhere. It wouldn't surprise me though if they try something which is entirely Sense based (sitting on a basic os), perhaps a media player or tv gadget. Whatever it is, they clearly pride themselves on coming up with clever ideas (if the adverts are to be believed) and that means they will be careful about sharing too much.
Obviously HTC already knew that Sense was not much use for the future (at least in its current form) or they would have completed the Facebook tab they started and they would have been the ones writing the RSS tab. I see that as the point when someone pulled the plug on pushing sense further and let it wind-down (I still feel sorry for the person who did all the facebook stuff - hopefully the tab makes up for it by not wasting their effort).
Why sense?
What is it about sense which makes us want to mod it? Is it just because it is there and it works as it should. Is it the design and concept of it, that makes it easy to use and we want to build more on to it? Is it because .net simply sucks at graphics (as well as other things...)?
Personally I find it a pig to work with, it probably isn't with the right tools though. Similar things are possible with other methods, so why not use them, the tabs which are already there can be replicated. Does the possibility of Silverlight on WM open up other options?
However, CHT shows perfectly why sense is worth using, but is that down to how sense works or just how Cookie designed CHT?
I'm interested to know peoples thoughts on this question, what is it about sense in particular that we want?
Windows based Sense...possible?
This is an interesting proposal...I can see this in one of two ways.
1. Native:
Attempt to use lua scripts and mode9 files as they are intended, compiled and in binary format. Obviously the smoothest and most efficient method. Lua is an open standard, so information is available on it's use and methods (although not sure about the compiled form). Mode9 files I guess can be used directly, but such things are beyond my knowledge. Clearly there are issues with tie in to the system (i.e. registry access, hardware etc will need to be different), but that could be compiled into the files.
2. Interpreted:
By leaving the lua scripts and mode9 files decompiled, the files can easily be parsed and interpreted by another program. This would also allow an abstraction layer to be added which interprets calls to the registry, hardware etc and makes the suitable calls. Ok, slower to do on the pc, but the CPU power should be able to manage with it.
The mode9 side probably won't be too bad, since it's format is quite basic and everything is static. Lua script interpreting will be much harder, but that could be something which can be developed over time (by supporting the basics at first and adding more over time). Tie into to dlls could pose the biggest problem, but they would never have worked on other environments anyway.
If we had some kind of interpreter this would also form the basis of a designer too, allowing easy design of components and pages [at first a display, then perhaps a way to edit directly].
Note: This concept is not new but has been discussed as part of the manila visual kitchen.
Both are huge jobs, but there is the skill and knowledge to do at least the 2nd right here on Xda.
What is the origins of the mode9 files, could there already be something which reads them?
Are there other groups which have gone further?
Other than Cookie, there are very few which have totally re-built things from scratch [I must add my apologies if I've missed something]. For example one is Moonar's GPS tab, which is from Russian site which appears to do sense stuff too.
Are they using the same tools as us, do they have better ones, can we work together to produce new ones? I've noticed that a lot of the sense stuff show up on Chinese sites too, are we missing things here too?
Also I must add, the CMD line kitchen is a piece of art, each component is excellent and huge thanks to the whole group for the work done on it!
Something else of note:
HTC Home for windows...
http://www.htchome.org/en/

[PROJECT] EvolutionUI, integrating Gamification into Android - open source research

Hi all developers,
We released our EvolutionUI research project as open source. In this project we are experimenting with integrating gamificiation (experience points, achievements, etc) into Android. This should make the phone easier to use and a lot more fun.
Feel free to have a look at the open source project and contribute to make it even better!
https://github.com/sonyxperiadev/EvolutionUI
Get the full story on Developer World.
/Pál Szász
SW developer at Sony

Hi
pal.szasz said:
Hi all developers,
We released our EvolutionUI research project as open source. In this project we are experimenting with integrating gamificiation (experience points, achievements, etc) into Android. This should make the phone easier to use and a lot more fun.
Feel free to have a look at the open source project and contribute to make it even better!
https://github.com/sonyxperiadev/EvolutionUI
Get the full story on Developer World.
/Pál Szász
SW developer at Sony
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Interesting! A very good initiative how can I put the file in my rom?

I actually like the idea a lot. Brings simple 'Fun' to the Android system. For some users it won't be though because there have been times where myself just wanted to dive into my Brand New Android device when I received it. However once I get used to it I get somewhat bored?! Lol, I'm a phone whore so that's definitely why. This might actually help me not want to move on to the 'Next Best Thing' once I get used to my current device.
I like it!:good:

Sound great....

i love the idea!!

Great idea, I actually think this is a great concept. Some users I've noticed find it white hard to get used to Android phones.
With this, they can explore and find out more things about their device yet figure out more about what they can do on it.
So great concept, I'll take a peek at the source
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Marília de Oliveira said:
Interesting! A very good initiative how can I put the file in my rom?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you are making/building your own ROM, then I guess you need to include the two projects into our repo and create Android.mk files for them.
If you just want to install it on your already flashed phone, there are precompiled binaries here: https://github.com/sonyxperiadev/EvolutionUI/releases
In each case note that this is not a finished product

This reminds me of app Android achievements
Used a lot then lost after factory reset and got lazy enough to not install it
Press thanks :good: if I've helped :highfive:

great job,, nice sound quality on sony

Good stuff! I'm trying to convince family to ditch iPhones since they're getting worse and worse on build quality under Mr. Cook. Their only real concern is learning a new phone. This would be extremely useful!

This has been already been done in form of an app. Been available for some time too!
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.pixelmark.phonechievements

Awesome work
Currently you can get achievements by :
1) Add 5 Shortcuts to Home Screen (Told by OP).
2) Open any app 5 times (Told by OP).
3) Add 5 Widgets to Home Screen (Discovered by me).
4) Add 10 Apps to Home Screen (Discovered by me).

pal.szasz said:
If you are making/building your own ROM, then I guess you need to include the two projects into our repo and create Android.mk files for them.
If you just want to install it on your already flashed phone, there are precompiled binaries here: https://github.com/sonyxperiadev/EvolutionUI/releases
In each case note that this is not a finished product
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks !

Thanks for the feedback, both for the positive and the negative!
Btw, you should be able to adjust other applications to work with achievements. The launcher is just an example.
Any application can publish it's own set of features and achievements. I started to write some more detailed explanation, but it's not finished yet: https://github.com/sonyxperiadev/EvolutionUI/wiki
However you can always look at the launcher patches: https://github.com/sonyxperiadev/an...mmit/71460e8441066b3dfc1a796b05f196d7edab8ba8

honestly, this is a bad idea. let me explain why.
the main idea behind this concept is to make it easier to the user to get familiar with the user interface. The user is slowly understanding the "game mechanics" of one "level" (i. e. reduced interface) and once he mastered them, he's ready for the next level. This process repeats until the user has all the skills needed to use the phone fully.
Ideally, the user should have full access to all functionality. The user interface should be polished and user friendly enough that any user doesn't experience any steep hills on the learning curve.
like someone said, Everything Should Be Made as Simple as Possible, But Not Simpler.
The average user has changed since the first smartphone. Back then, the idea of interact with a machine was very new. Arguably nowadays people are being brought up surrounded by technology, making it easier for them to understand how a computational device work.
Hence the achievements system is purely a steep hill that every single user has to do, even an experienced user. More computation machines are owned by the average user: tablet, phone, watches. What I fear is that the user has to go through a little game every time he has a new device. An idea to be successful has to be widely implemented, and I don't see this happening.
One could argue that every device may have a different interface and new "skills" have to be learned in order to fully use the device. True, but where the problem really lies is within inconsistency across multiple devices.
Consistency across multiple devices. This is what the aim of a good designer should be. As mentioned, this interface should be clean and intuitive. It's not easy, Microsoft is trying to do it and even with all the skilled people and resources available they ain't quite there yet.
With what it is available at the moment, a AOSP look with a theme engine (and an advanced menu unlocked it via a semi hidden command, like tapping multiple times the build number to get to Dev options) is a very very good concept.
Sony is almost doing so with the recent devices and I'm really happy about their decision. Continue down this way you guys. This surely was a fun little project to do, hopefully it has taught you something on the way.
p. s.
I love Android and its ability to change interface when I feel like it. But once I found an interface I'm happy about, I'm sticking with it between flashing and phones. The interface is device agnostic. This idea is shared among my friends and personally it is shared across xda as well. Hopefully this could serve as a proff of the above.
pps
I really like the professionality of the latest Sony interfaces, it doesn't look like it was designed for teens. Thank you!
I hope I have expressed my ideas in a clear way without offending anyone. I have open to further discussion on this topic.

hrockh said:
honestly, this is a bad idea. let me explain why.
the main idea behind this concept is to make it easier to the user to get familiar with the user interface. The user is slowly understanding the "game mechanics" of one "level" (i. e. reduced interface) and once he mastered them, he's ready for the next level. This process repeats until the user has all the skills needed to use the phone fully.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's only one of the main ideas. Another important idea is to make it fun, to make a positive feedback to the user. I understand that some users don't need, but some do, some like an extra little bit of challenge, or simply a reward. For example my parents were very happy when they managed to find out how to merge two word documents, and they were eager to tell everybody
hrockh said:
Ideally, the user should have full access to all functionality. The user interface should be polished and user friendly enough that any user doesn't experience any steep hills on the learning curve.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think this is possible. There is no way to make a user interface, which is easy to use both for beginner users and contains all the features required for advanced users. You mention the hidden developer options as an example. For me that's a good example why it doesn't work: it took me some time to find out what happened with the developer menu. The same with the offline map support in google maps. They removed the feature from the menu (to make it easier to use for the beginner users), and they added it as a hidden feature (type "ok maps" in the search?!). I also used an iPhone for 2 weeks, but didn't liked. And I liked the UI of the old UIQ phones. I also think the new trend of using more hidden gestures is also confusing for some users (especially the new swipe-sideways-to-delete-but-sometimes-to-show-more-options thingy).
Btw, we thought about advanced users, they can switch profile and disable the achievement system. Or switch profile only, but keep the achievement notifications just for fun. In many comments I saw people look at this as something they HAVE TO do. That's not the case. The point is to track what they are doing, and enable more and more. And of course there are not and there will never be microtransactions involved.
hrockh said:
Hence the achievements system is purely a steep hill that every single user has to do, even an experienced user.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Like I mentioned before, this is not something the user HAS TO do. You can skip it by changing profiles.
hrockh said:
What I fear is that the user has to go through a little game every time he has a new device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We actually thought about this as well (but was not mentioned in the article for time/size reason)
We actually think this can help the user to switch to a different phone even if he used a smartphone already. Smartphones have new features compared to the previous one, so there is always something new to learn. The idea is the following:
* if switching from a phone which already supported EvolutionUI, we can copy the state (experiences, features, achievements obtained) and continue from the same point. This is rather easy to do, we already store this information locally (obviously, in case the user reboots the phone), so the only thing we need to do is transfer it to another device (probably via a cloud service). (NOTE: this is still in the concept phase, not implemented yet).
* if switching from a phone which did not support EvolutionUI, we can have a small builtin database, which maps the previous phone to an achievement state. For example if the previous user had an iPhone, we can set the medium profile instead of the beginner profile. It would be possible to even have customized profiles for certain phones (i.e. a small xml file describing all the features which needs to be enabled by start, since it was available in the previous phone)
hrockh said:
Consistency across multiple devices. This is what the aim of a good designer should be. As mentioned, this interface should be clean and intuitive. It's not easy, Microsoft is trying to do it and even with all the skilled people and resources available they ain't quite there yet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
NOTE: the following is just my personal opinion:
Of course we cannot guarantee complete consistency, since we control the Sony phones only. But to be honest, I don't think consistency is that important: imagine, if all android phones would look and behave like the iPhone. Of course it would be nice for many users, they could switch to android easily. But what should those users who don't like the iPhone UI do? They could not buy any phone. And I also want to mention again, that IMHO there is no such thing as perfect UI. UIs evolved a lot, but it's still a matter a fashion: a couple of years ago everybody liked the real-life-looking apps on the iPhone. Now they like the new modern, simplified look. It's always changing, and just like with fashion, not everybody has the same taste.
hrockh said:
I hope I have expressed my ideas in a clear way without offending anyone. I have open to further discussion on this topic.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you, and I appreciate it!