Related
http://code.google.com/android/
incase anyones not familiar with android, check that site out.
im not sure why there isnt more development or developers that are going after this in terms of getting it working on all devices? im currently using it on my vogue and its amazing. definately better UI in terms of EVERYTHING. its open source, so i think developers should be all over this! has so much potential its kind of ridiculous
vogue thread
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=382265
its working about 80% now thanks to amazing developer martin.
the browser and everything (overall UI) are so much better and smoother than windows mobile! and being that its open source with google ENCOURAGING development of apps and themes and skins and whatnot, i think this is the next best thing to happen to ppc's.
THIS is the actual iphone killer.
just some samples
on a vogue (very smooth)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0z9bWiAT44
just a demo of the browser (mine is actually a little smoother than this)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2FpDDEVWtk
the reason im posting this here is because i was the first one to post in this section with manilla2d (when udk first released it), asking whether we can get this on other devices, and look what happened with that. if we can get the amazing developers from here to work on this like they worked on m2d, then wow this will be amazing!
Yeah, even I'm suprised at the low level of excitement of porting this to all devices. Hoping for some real development . Btw, those videos are pretty impressive.
Akshay
Yeah... I'm a little surprised too.
I have a Vogue now, so I'm OK, but I'd love to see somebody pick this project up for the Touch Pro. It seems to be very similar to the G1, so the porting would be a lot more complete than the porting to the Vogue.
Hopefully somebody with the skills (read: not me) will undertake this.
it'll pick up. i say in 6 months to a year people will snap out of the apple app dev craze. but from a dev point of view, apple is where its at right now. the amount of money you could make is a driver by all means.
htc will also be a key part in this. when they start to release better looking hardware, perhaps something on par with the diamond....you'll see a user increase. and user increase translate into dev interest. so just hang in there....i think you'll get what you want soon.
A ppc that works only on 80 Percent ? And no additional Software, no outlook syncronisation? Thats at the moment somthing for freaks or people with a second device
If there would be a 100 Percent Android i would install it, believe me, because i´m not very happy with windows anymore.
So i think we must wait and hope.
My next Device in half a year will be hopefully the Touch HD with Android rolleyes
because it makes no sense to port androud to a phone that is not 3G with GPS.
the only advantage of the g phone that I saw was the service. 3G and free GPS! i'm like, how much for the puppy in the window?
I honestly think that porting it to my wizard would be senseless.
without the service the gphone is just a phone wothout service.
S.V.I said:
because it makes no sense to port androud to a phone that is not 3G with GPS.
the only advantage of the g phone that I saw was the service. 3G and free GPS! i'm like, how much for the puppy in the window?
I honestly think that porting it to my wizard would be senseless.
without the service the gphone is just a phone wothout service.
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Click to collapse
Of course it is always pointless. We do it because we can (and because we don't want to do anything while at work)
(and much like bluemetal, we are all tired of the same old look and functionality in our WM devices). Then again, it can always be worse....
we could all have iphones
Anyways, I am looking forward to someone porting this to the Blue Angel.
The bigest stumbling block for me is lack of Exchange support. GPS isn't really necessary with the cell tower triangulation available. The accuracy is getting better. It will never be as tight as GPS but close is good enough for me. I can do with out 3G (I wish I had it) I don't enjoy the experience with the little screen. It's like looking at the ocean through a porthole. A 5 inch screen with much better resolution would be great. I use it for quick info but surfing is not fun.
I do like the idea of going linux on the phone. It would be that much closer to having a truely mobile desktop. We wouldn't have to install resource hogging shells that ride on top of an already bloated today screen to get better customization.
I think the biggest problem overall though is the hardware needed will put a lot of older equipment like my little wizard out to pasture. I don't have the funds to rush out an purchase a new phone. And yes I think all the bugs will need to be shaken out for a while before I take the plunge. Maybe by the 2nd or third generation of Android things will be a little less "bleeding edge". It all looks great now but I rely on my phone too much to gamble on an untried system.
To be completely honest, I too am suprised by the lack of progress.
This is a complete replacement for Windows Mobile: something we've all only dreamed about up until now. It will have a wicked Dev community around it soon enough.
There were a hell of a lot of efforts to get the Beta running. But now... nothing?
*so confused
The worst part is, it'd be gorgeous on my LG KS20, but I doubt we'll see it anytime soon: no one loves us KS20 owners. Guess you were all just jealous of our drivers.
bluemetalaxe said:
A ppc that works only on 80 Percent ? And no additional Software, no outlook syncronisation? Thats at the moment somthing for freaks or people with a second device
If there would be a 100 Percent Android i would install it, believe me, because i´m not very happy with windows anymore.
So i think we must wait and hope.
My next Device in half a year will be hopefully the Touch HD with Android rolleyes
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i don't know if you read my whole post, but i never said "hey everyone lets run something 80% finished on our ppcs."
waiting and hoping isnt going to do anything, thats why i started this thread. to get more attention instead of sitting and waiting for something we arent sure is going to ever happen.
im glad a lot of other people are on the same page as me, wondering why there is barely any development for this. thanks for the support guys
lets get some devs in here to weigh in on this!
Well, there's a number of quite simple reasons...
- Porting Android to another device isn't as simple as "Hey, it's Open Source, you just have to compile and install". First of all, you'd need to find a working cross compiler for ARM in the first place (one using Windows' API, like those used for PPC apps isn't much help). Then you'd need to write drivers for usually undocumented hardware with this cross compiler or in ARM assembler (reusing existing WM drivers, like in cooked ROMs, wouldn't work in Linux). Finally, you need to find a way to flash that system to your PPC (that's a bit more work than a patched/cooked variation of an already existing WM ROM), and so on. That's work for the kind of freaks who would do their taxes binary in mind...
- Writing apps for a system almost nobody own so far isn't that attractive. It's even less attractive if the potential developer doesn't own one - the real experience is always a bit different to an emulator, and usually would like some use for himself, too (what good is an mobile app for you if you'd need a laptop with emulator to use it? ). So far, there's only one official Android device out there, and aside from the fact it's still a bit "first try, for developers only" (no Outlook sync, ugly design, ...), you only get it in very few parts of the world or in overpriced eBay auctions. Inofficial ports with reduced functionality and maybe buggy or slow "beta" drivers aren't that great, too...
- While the Android API is quite close to common Java style, it's still something completely new, which requires some time to get into the framework's basic style, the available functions, the loopholes and small tricks, etc. With WM, the gap to common Windows (desktop) programming is way smaller, and I guess it's similar with the iPhone and Mac programming.
Or, in other words: Give Andoid some time to grow up. IMHO, G1 and the few existing ports are a playground for hackers and early adopters, so they can get startet with fixing (security holes, missing functionality, ...). Then, in some months, more devices with a "hacker improved" Android will be published, and when developers buy those, they also will start writing apps if they are missing something.
you'd think more people would be starting to port.. because god is that g1 terrible, you have to have sharpened pencils for fingers to type on that flush keyboard)
Mort said:
Well, there's a number of quite simple reasons...
- Porting Android to another device isn't as simple as "Hey, it's Open Source, you just have to compile and install". First of all, you'd need to find a working cross compiler for ARM in the first place (one using Windows' API, like those used for PPC apps isn't much help). Then you'd need to write drivers for usually undocumented hardware with this cross compiler or in ARM assembler (reusing existing WM drivers, like in cooked ROMs, wouldn't work in Linux). Finally, you need to find a way to flash that system to your PPC (that's a bit more work than a patched/cooked variation of an already existing WM ROM), and so on. That's work for the kind of freaks who would do their taxes binary in mind...
- Writing apps for a system almost nobody own so far isn't that attractive. It's even less attractive if the potential developer doesn't own one - the real experience is always a bit different to an emulator, and usually would like some use for himself, too (what good is an mobile app for you if you'd need a laptop with emulator to use it? ). So far, there's only one official Android device out there, and aside from the fact it's still a bit "first try, for developers only" (no Outlook sync, ugly design, ...), you only get it in very few parts of the world or in overpriced eBay auctions. Inofficial ports with reduced functionality and maybe buggy or slow "beta" drivers aren't that great, too...
- While the Android API is quite close to common Java style, it's still something completely new, which requires some time to get into the framework's basic style, the available functions, the loopholes and small tricks, etc. With WM, the gap to common Windows (desktop) programming is way smaller, and I guess it's similar with the iPhone and Mac programming.
Or, in other words: Give Andoid some time to grow up. IMHO, G1 and the few existing ports are a playground for hackers and early adopters, so they can get startet with fixing (security holes, missing functionality, ...). Then, in some months, more devices with a "hacker improved" Android will be published, and when developers buy those, they also will start writing apps if they are missing something.
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Click to collapse
ok now these reasons make a lot of sense. im just surprised that not as many people are trying to get it started so they can get started on fixing, like you said. but ok, all of your other reasons make complete sense. im sure the future releases of android will only get better.
android just seems like exactly what many of us have been looking for in wm devices, basically, a complete UI replacement endorsed/created by a large company (other than microsoft lol).
jakub_w said:
im just surprised that not as many people are trying to get it started so they can get started on fixing, like you said.
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Click to collapse
Who knows? AFAIK, the order numbers aren't that bad, and all those reviewers give some feedback, too. I mean, it's only a week since the G1 is available at all, and, as said, it's not very attractive so far. Not everybody wants to spend hundreds of dollars just to provide Google with requests and code changes and T-Mobile and HTC with money...
android just seems like exactly what many of us have been looking for in wm devices, basically, a complete UI replacement endorsed/created by a large company (other than microsoft lol).
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Click to collapse
I don't think the UI is the really big thing about Android. You can even replace it completely, and I don't know (yet) where the limits / design guides are for applications. I just hope it doesn't get as confusing as Linux on the desktop, where even a Gnome or KDE desktop can be modified so far that it's almost as hard to switch distros as switching from Windows to MacOS...
The important things about Android are more in the basic technology, imho, like
- A stable, timeless system core (*nix is older than me, so "modern" is not quite correct - that goes for MacOS X, too, btw...)
- Seamless integration of connection management and phone functions (opposed to WM, where it still acts like a makeshift patchwork, and with every update less APIs are working...)
- Portable application framework (Java, lots of system APIs)
- Simple application installation (no "is this EXE a PC setup or the PPC executable?", "How the hell do I install a CAB file?", ...)
However, I still wonder how/if Andoid will support direct PC synchronization (for shared files, contacts, appointments, music, ...) and how fast and memory consumptive the required Java VM is... (Well, at least none of the G1 reviews I read complained about that, so it seems to be faster than .NET on WM...)
i was just playing around with android and in the dev tools or api demos theres a section called opengl es. i have a vogue and i tried these, they ran extremely smoothly. isnt this something that everyone has been saying is impossible? (specifically for getting tf3d to run on the vogue) i think this proves that software driven 3d is more than capable of handling tf3d. just a thought.
jakub_w said:
i was just playing around with android and in the dev tools or api demos theres a section called opengl es. i have a vogue and i tried these, they ran extremely smoothly. isnt this something that everyone has been saying is impossible? (specifically for getting tf3d to run on the vogue) i think this proves that software driven 3d is more than capable of handling tf3d. just a thought.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I definitely agree with you on that. Thing is though is that this is a completely different environment with a different set of drivers (and rules) which makes (for example) modifying their parameters to allow for keys normally used for certain functions in WM to be used for something completely different. Also OpenGL (ES) is all that is used on *nix OSes whether or not they run on full or embedded hardware. All that's needed is the driver for the graphics chip. Microsoft wants you to use their proprietary D3D not OpenGL (ES) hence why it was impossible to have OpenGL (ES) before. Also TF3D uses DirectX and not OpenGL ES AFAIK.
Android is great. Only thing I need is a way to get the SDcard image working and a HTC Touch Pro to port Android, Angstrom and/or OpenMoko to, I'd be set.
why would you develop software for an operating system that isn't even fully ported yet?
joel2009 said:
why would you develop software for an operating system that isn't even fully ported yet?
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Click to collapse
Weeell....
- It's Linux and Open Source (some people wouldn't touch a closed system with a stick...)
- It's nice to be prepared when you get the running system
- There is a device with that OS
- The documentation is way better than Microsoft's
- There's a good chance the API will remain compatible, so it doesn't hurt to start early (opposed to WM, where some basic features can/could only be done with device dependant or inofficial APIs, which were dropped in newer updates...)
I'm not just ranting or trying to make a point, I'm legitimately interested in Google's strategy.
Obviously, google cant argue with the fact that htc has widgets that blow googles widgets out of the water. Google cant say theyve worked hard on their widgets and they cant honestly suggest that they are satisfied with them.
Are there any articles or official satements by google/android regarding their refusal to develop Widgets that are more attractive and elaborate? I'm google faithful and wont switch on principle but I can't imagine more than 10% of those people who've tried HTC's subsequently preferring Googles. Its a very strange angle that google has taken.....or maybe its not I'd like to know their view/opinion...does anyone know it? thanks
Incidentally, its not that Google's Widgets are horrible its just that they could be infinitely better at what I would assume to be relatively little effort... off the top of my head if the power widget was broken into single widgets and more options were included that would great and presumably pretty damn simple, and google emphasizes the customizable desktop which I'm all for yet they neglect wiidgets which could really be a draw for potential customers. thank you
Have to agree with you there. They need to add more stock/easy ways to change the look. It would go a long way in selling more phones. People simply think nicer looking things are "cooler" devices. Some of the metamorph's prove the changes aren't exactly difficult. I'm sure they could code a minimal program that had the ability to change the status bar to black, white, gray... A few nice widgets.. Small changes that the XDA community already offers the rooted phones.
If you watch Googles initial press release for the Android launch youll get your answer, they made Android for developers. Instead of going Apples route where you have to use their stuff and if they have something similar no one else can, they went the other way. They said they would provide the function necessary for a smart phone and leave the rest to the developers and provided the open source operating system and api's necassary for that to happen. And honestly id say its worked. I dont use their messenger, I use Handcent. I dont use their browser, I use Dolphin Browser. I dont use their clock I use Weather Widget donate or Beautiful Widgets. I often see reviews on apps that say, "this should have been included" blah blah but thats not what Androids all about, its about the devs. I think Android blows everyone away in that category, we may not have the amount of apps that other phones have but we do have more options for the things we use everyday and thats something I can appreciate, its only going to get better as Android grows and its definitely getting there. I'd rather have open development any day than, "Here, this is what you need."
i do agree with you, but those not wanting to void warranty are alittle more limited, i very much want to root but don't want to void warranty to find a month from now something is wrong and theres still no bootloader relock option. i think theres a lot more customization for rooted vs nonrooted and that's where people feel limited and have the "this should have been added" attitude
You have to keep in mind, Google is just providing a basic operating system. They leave it up the the developers to customize it. You can kinda compair it to what microsoft does, loosly. You can build your own computer, buy windows and customise it to your liking. Or you can buy one from Dell that comes pre-loaded with windows and various other applications. Google just really provides the base level OS.
@psylink you dont need root for most widgets. With exception to like the overclock widget and such, or if you are trying to run a widget that was part of a different rom.
JoshHart said:
If you watch Googles initial press release for the Android launch youll get your answer, they made Android for developers. Instead of going Apples route where you have to use their stuff and if they have something similar no one else can, they went the other way. They said they would provide the function necessary for a smart phone and leave the rest to the developers and provided the open source operating system and api's necassary for that to happen. And honestly id say its worked. I dont use their messenger, I use Handcent. I dont use their browser, I use Dolphin Browser. I dont use their clock I use Weather Widget donate or Beautiful Widgets. I often see reviews on apps that say, "this should have been included" blah blah but thats not what Androids all about, its about the devs. I think Android blows everyone away in that category, we may not have the amount of apps that other phones have but we do have more options for the things we use everyday and thats something I can appreciate, its only going to get better as Android grows and its definitely getting there. I'd rather have open development any day than, "Here, this is what you need."
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Click to collapse
That's a fantastic stance to take when you're providing just an OS.
However, when you release a branded phone under your own name, you need to provide substantial content to that brand.
As it stands the only thing setting the nexus apart from other phones is hardware. In a few months when numerous phones have the same hardware whats putting the nexus ahead of the pact? They same way motorola has motoblur, htc has sense, etc., Google needs their own "style" for their own handsets.
There are a few home screen redesigns on the market that (AFAIK since I've never tried any of them) don't require rooting and significantly change the "look" of the standard phone. Most of them are heavily theme-able as well. On the Behold II forums a lot of people were touting these apps as ways to get rid of the Touchwiz interface that they didn't like (Samsung pouts).
Also, Google created this OS as a platform both for developers to fill with apps, but also for manufacturers to customize to differentiate themselves. If they didn't leave room for manufacturers to customize then the platform would be far less attractive to them and they'd have more adoption problems. If they create too strong of a core UI then they might either be in the position of competing against the manufacturers on that "differentiation" ground, or they might remove any need/desire to customize and the manufacturers would have to consider producing another "me too" phone which they may not like as much, or Google might spend a lot of time on work that will be discarded by the manufacturers during their differentiation. Most of these manufacturers are members of the "alliance" that collaborated on the platform so I'm sure these points were hashed out during that planning phase.
If they don't promote adoption then they lose the win for developers in having a widely adopted platform. Note that even though HTC heavily customizes with Sense and Motorola heavily customizes with Blur and Samsung with Touchwiz, a developer can still write an app that runs on all of those and so everyone is happy.
muncheese said:
That's a fantastic stance to take when you're providing just an OS.
However, when you release a branded phone under your own name, you need to provide substantial content to that brand.
As it stands the only thing setting the nexus apart from other phones is hardware. In a few months when numerous phones have the same hardware whats putting the nexus ahead of the pact? They same way motorola has motoblur, htc has sense, etc., Google needs their own "style" for their own handsets.
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Click to collapse
True, they could do that, but I don't think they are putting the Nexus One out so much to enter the brand market heavily as they are to put out the canonical reference version of the phone, at least initially. In my mind, the N1 was never to compete with the manufacturers head to head, it was more to have a phone out there that was as open and pluggable as their vision has always been so that if all the manufacturers/carriers decide they are going to take the base OS, lock it down, make people buy ringtones through a carrier market and cripple the browsing so you can't download anything - customers would have an alternative open solution to turn to. In the past there have been classic examples of a given model/brand of phone available from some carriers where you could download any customization file to it that you wanted and then on other carriers it was crippled and locked you in. In those cases you had to buy the crippled versions because there was no independently available canonical "open" version. The N1 fights that tendency not by force or contract, but by simply being. It doesn't have to be the coolest, hippest incarnation, it just has to be pretty and usable and so open that everyone will start to get a distaste for anything closed.
What we are seeing so far with Android isn't so much of this "carrier locking" as it is "carriers customizing so heavily that they threaten the upgrade paths for their customers". I don't think they are doing it intentionally, they just aren't familiar with working on a platform that evolves so quickly. Without the N1 being a bare bones example of the platform they would only be competing with other manufacturers that are similarly locked in by their own lack of upgrade foresight and so the drive to release upgrades wouldn't be so compelling. But, if there are alternatives available that will be keeping up on a much more aggressive pace, like the N1, then they are more likely to fix their differentiating software so that it can move to newer OS versions in a more timely manner. Imagine in a year or two when we can all own Blur or Sense phones and get our OS updates within a month or two of a new OS release.
It's the "reference fully open Android example" and, as such, is less in need of customization as it is to simply stand as an option to keep the others honest. It's meant to be as "close to the raw OS source" as it can be.
muncheese said:
That's a fantastic stance to take when you're providing just an OS.
However, when you release a branded phone under your own name, you need to provide substantial content to that brand.
As it stands the only thing setting the nexus apart from other phones is hardware. In a few months when numerous phones have the same hardware whats putting the nexus ahead of the pact? They same way motorola has motoblur, htc has sense, etc., Google needs their own "style" for their own handsets.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When have widgets been the only way to add content to the phone? I mean there are plenty of replacement widgets already on the market if you dont like the stock ones. Me I would rather they provide more features then pretty widgets. They have provided plenty of content for the phone. Live wallpapers, google goggles, factory bootloader unlock, sim unlocked, mutible exchange account management, updated gallery, multi touch maps, ect
MonkySlap said:
When have widgets been the only way to add content to the phone? I mean there are plenty of replacement widgets already on the market if you dont like the stock ones. Me I would rather they provide more features then pretty widgets. They have provided plenty of content for the phone. Live wallpapers, google goggles, factory bootloader unlock, sim unlocked, mutible exchange account management, updated gallery, multi touch maps, ect
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Click to collapse
Those are all implementations for the OS, something that would happen regardless of a "Google's phone", and things that get rolled out to other devices.
They have to walk a fine line because they are Google, and having exclusivity for one thing almost goes against their entire paradigm.
Maybe the "advantage" is getting stuff first? If so, that's kinda meh.
muncheese said:
Those are all implementations for the OS, something that would happen regardless of a "Google's phone", and things that get rolled out to other devices.
They have to walk a fine line because they are Google, and having exclusivity for one thing almost goes against their entire paradigm.
Maybe the "advantage" is getting stuff first? If so, that's kinda meh.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
but its still content non the less, correct? Doesnt need to be exclusive to be considered content. Me personally I really didnt buy it for stock os or content. I bought mine to tweak, mod, and play with, and it is more then fulfiling that for me . Love the desire rom running so smooth so early in the port.
muncheese said:
Those are all implementations for the OS, something that would happen regardless of a "Google's phone", and things that get rolled out to other devices.
They have to walk a fine line because they are Google, and having exclusivity for one thing almost goes against their entire paradigm.
Maybe the "advantage" is getting stuff first? If so, that's kinda meh.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Or maybe their philosophy is that any and all "enhancements" should be optional add-ons available to all phones of the breed. As it stands you can only get Sense or Blur if you buy a phone from those manufacturers (or if you root and someone scavenges a semi-compatible ROM from one of them for you). I don't think they want to be in the game of "you have to get your phone from us to get XYZ" and so they provide a reasonably attractive basic package, they set it up so that others can come in and provide openly available enhancements (see the various replacement "home screens" on the market for example) and then the customer gets the benefit of both choice and of an open environment.
I think they view branding as more of an obstacle than as a sales/owner satisfaction tactic.
JoshHart said:
If you watch Googles initial press release for the Android launch youll get your answer, they made Android for developers. Instead of going Apples route where you have to use their stuff and if they have something similar no one else can, they went the other way. They said they would provide the function necessary for a smart phone and leave the rest to the developers and provided the open source operating system and api's necassary for that to happen. And honestly id say its worked. I dont use their messenger, I use Handcent. I dont use their browser, I use Dolphin Browser. I dont use their clock I use Weather Widget donate or Beautiful Widgets. I often see reviews on apps that say, "this should have been included" blah blah but thats not what Androids all about, its about the devs. I think Android blows everyone away in that category, we may not have the amount of apps that other phones have but we do have more options for the things we use everyday and thats something I can appreciate, its only going to get better as Android grows and its definitely getting there. I'd rather have open development any day than, "Here, this is what you need."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All good points. Now that I think about it I bought this phone for stock google stuff, which in hindsight may have been a mistake. With the g1 and mytouch 3g the google software was often the closest thing to stable available and I've grown to trust mainly them and reputable companies. Its kind of embarrassing to look thru the market and have to sift through countless apps that serve virtually no purpose, have terrible icons, and aren't even close to stable, but perhaps this is a product of androids relative immaturity, though I'm unfamiliar with winmo, palm, and apple. I just haven't been impressed with many third party apps or Widgets, save a select few very impressive ones. 90% of the apps look and feel very amateur. I stick to apps and Widgets produced by real companies because those have the best chance of being usuable. That was quite a gamble by google to go largely hands off and let all software be driven by development. Xda has spotlighted many excellent devs as far as rooting goes but for the average user the options are unimpressive. Maybe google will give in and start developing more usuable/stable/useful apps/widgets
I think that there are two schools of thought on this, yet we are all agreeing on the same concept.
While Google did create Android to be a stock type OS that they could distribute to multiple handset makers (in order to increase their ability to produce smartphones with only minor increases in developmental costs aside from those related to hardware - ultimately getting more people using the mobile web resulting in more ad revenue -whew! ), they also have in a sense slightly abandoned those of us who took the direct to consumers path. This is why they didn't put much into the release of the phone (look up the launch stats - or lack of accessories). While they don't have the responsibility to create widgets, programs, animations, etc. for us (the D2C crowd). I believe that they should have worked out a deal with HTC where we are allowed to unlock the bootloader and tinker/mod/play with/customize, etc as much as we want to without penalty or breaking the warranty. We don't have the funding to purchase a few hundred phones in case we brick them testing out various configs., nor do most of us have the expertise to repair the device if it gets bricked. The only other possibility is that a contract clause is created whereby we are allowed to download ROMs from Android manufacturers (or at least just HTC) and put them on our phones - doesn't that give us the MOST number of options to customize our phones? And isn't the ability to customize an Android phone the original intent of the OS?
By giving us either an allowance to unlock the bootloader or the allowance to download (and maybe play with other manufacturer customized ROMs) or preferably both I think that it would be a win-win situation.
Hello there folks. Let me begin by introducing myself and my situation. My name is Damian, I am in the twelfth-grade and I am currently enrolled in my high-school's concurrent enrollment program with one of the local universities in which I have to write a paper concerning the field of software engineering.
I started this post with the intention of finding and asking certified software engineers a few questions concerning their professions.
I came to this particular forum because of the many brilliant folk here, and my assumption that certainly a portion of the active members are certified software engineers.
-Many thanks in advanced for your replies and imput,
-Damian
damiandarkwater said:
Hello there folks. Let me begin by introducing myself and my situation. My name is Damian, I am in the twelfth-grade and I am currently enrolled in my high-school's concurrent enrollment program with one of the local universities in which I have to write a paper concerning the field of software engineering.
I started this post with the intention of finding and asking certified software engineers a few questions concerning their professions.
I came to this particular forum because of the many brilliant folk here, and my assumption that certainly a portion of the active members are certified software engineers.
-Many thanks in advanced for your replies and imput,
-Damian
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can answer questions in this field as I am a Software Engineer. I would be happy to give a young person such as yourself advice.
I actually didn't go into college right after high school, I wish I had but I incountered allot of hardship around your age. When I was 22 I went back to school and payed my own way through college, slept in my car in the college parking lot and lived off of peanut butter and jelly sandwhichs.
Honestly its your first job in software thats the hardest to get, but if your persistent you'll get it after that if your perform its pretty much smooth sailing. A good example is how everybody lately has had a hard time finding jobs (bad economy), and even I was laid off from a job where the company was doing great and then went south and I went on the market looking around and recruiters were calling non-stop and I had 2 jobs (one short term getting paid insane amounts of money for 200 hours of work, and then a long term contract after that), I took a vacation to vegas, paid of credit card debt and then started my long term contract.
So ask away!
Edit:
Oh I currently work for a large telecom company where I work ont here provisioning software. My main expertise is Java (j2se, j2ee blah blah) I also write reports (crystal, jfree and actuate), I also have alot of side skills like jsp, ajax, jquery. I actually have wirtten code professionally in all the major langs like c, c#, j# asp.net. As a software developer you constantly need to evolve and progress. I aslo done graphics professionally and If I had it my way I write videos games if I could but alas the life of a programmer is allot less glamorous than most people no.
Many thanks, I'm sorry to hear about your tough times, but I'm glad to hear things have settled out.
I want to say its great that your able to help me and thank you for your tux theme and scripts.
I am actually looking into dealing with my computers as a profession after collage.
So I begin (thanks again):
What courses and or certifications do you need.
What is a typical day in your job like?
Do you enjoy your job?
And you can tell me anything else that you believe to be important that I may have missed.
-Thanks again
Damian
damiandarkwater said:
Many thanks, I'm sorry to hear about your tough times, but I'm glad to hear things have settled out.
I want to say its great that your able to help me and thank you for your tux theme and scripts.
I am actually looking into dealing with my computers as a profession after collage.
So I begin (thanks again):
What courses and or certifications do you need.
What is a typical day in your job like?
Do you enjoy your job?
And you can tell me anything else that you believe to be important that I may have missed.
-Thanks again
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My tough times where years ago. I've been in the field for almost 10 years.
The first thing you want todo is get a bachelors degree in computer science. Take as many courses as you can in which you will get exposed to writing software, understanding logic and being able to solve problems using logic. But the most important thing is have a specailty something that you know above all other things, be it a certain language or software... good expample is SAP, I have a friend who is a project manager for a very very large electronics manufacturer. they are paying a contractor to do SAP programming and they pay him 500$ dollars an hour... yes 500$ and hour now its not a permanent job but he's making more in a month than most people make in a couple of years. Thats his specailty and its a hard one to break into.
So once you get your degree you can concentrate on what your specailty will be this is where certs come in. Certs are great but don't pay for them, get a job in the field and get them to pay, this is because most of them expire and you usually have to renew them every couple of years. But the look good on your resume especailly if a company pays as this gives the impression that you are a go getter and that the company beleives in you. Your specailty might relate to your degree major or it might be what your first major job is, this is just luck of the draw.
So a typicaly day, wow its hard to say. Sometimes its go go go and I'm writing code like crazy. Other days its talk talk talk and meetings. Sometimes I spend days writing tech specs or documents to give overviews and estimations on software that needs to be written. Think office space it really is allot like that. One thing alot of people don't know about being a software developer is that you not only need to understand how to write software (ie solve problems) but you also need to undersand the industry in which you write software for. This means you need to understand the business process. So think if you were writing software for a burger company, you need to understand how orders are processed, how iventory is processed and used blah blah. This is where probably the hardest part it almost a second job.
Do I like my job.... as someone who had mowed lawns and dug ditches for a living making money that wouldnt even feed one person, yes I actually love my job. I worked hard to get where I'm at I make pretty good money, my wife doesn't have to work, My kids have more than I had as a little kid and the work I do is satisfying.
If there one thing I could stress when it comes to this line of work. You have to love software, so much so that you willing to work long hours and then come home and write more software as a hobby (maybe i did atleast). Or when you hit college start a pet project and see it through. These are the things that will set you apart from other developer coming out of college. Especailly when you don't have much on your resume, and honestly these are the question potential employers ask (hobbies, personal projects).
How bout this... I give you an hour by hour blog for the next week on what I'm doing at work.
I'm currently working on a rewrite... code fix for code that the company I work for now decided to outsource. This code ended up being terrible and was somethign I was thrown into when I arrived here about 8 months ago. I just started this project about 3 weeks ago and before that I spent about 4weeks evaluating and writing custom testing suites to produce metrics scores for this software compared to the previous version of this software (ie compare say version 5 to version 6). I was the one who found all the bugs and areas of concern and gave estimates on hours of work to fix these things.
So I might be off tomorrow, if I am I will report so. If not then I will start the hour by hour blog if you like.
Such a blog would be amazing (and id read up hourly for updates trust me, this sounds fascinating!)but I wouldn't want to detract from your life anymore then I already have, you work hard and I imagine that you would want to have time to yourself for your hobbies and your family.
Thank you very much. I could ask a million more questions, but again, I don't want to take away to much time. Thanks a billion
No really i want to answer them I wish I had been in you're shoes when I was your age. I didn't have some one telling that I could do it... computer were different back then hell I didn't own my own computer till I was in my twenties.
Ill do the blog for you... one if the perks of being on a computer. Like I said just at work tho. When I get home I can't promise when I be able to post.
So ask question one at a time since I tend to be long winded... it makers it easier... honestly when I retire I plan on teaching at a tech college... but thats about 20 years away. But I love to answer question about these things.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
Great
Well what was learning your first programming language like
Do you think knowing a markup language helps or would help in the learning process?
What do you think the software engineering world will be like in a few years?
Is there any particular aspect of the computer world you like most?
Do you still keep in contact with any of your professors or colleges?
Hey Asimmons, thanks for helping damian out. I'm in the same boat he is, and I'm finding this really useful! Thanks a lot!
Glad I can help I was in you guys shoes once. And know that feeling of uncertainty... ill answer more tomorrow for you guys and start the blog.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
I know I've said it tons, but I mean it, thank you ASimmons. And I'm glad this post can help others
damiandarkwater said:
Great
Well what was learning your first programming language like
Do you think knowing a markup language helps or would help in the learning process?
What do you think the software engineering world will be like in a few years?
Is there any particular aspect of the computer world you like most?
Do you still keep in contact with any of your professors or colleges?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mark up languages are very important, but I wouldn't focus a career on them. Languages like html, dhtml or xml are skills you will pickup along the way, understanding how these langs are parsed and used by other languages are very important and is a valuable skill to have. Especially in Java and with the emergence of real time web applications that uses technologies like ajax, jquery and now html5 it is more important to understand the usage and capabilities of these languages rather than focus on just knowing how to write a webpage.
The future of software will be more and more web based and mobile application. as we have seen in the corporate world for the last 5 or so years application that were once only possible on the desktop have moved entirely to web based app. This makes deployments and updates easier to maintain, version control easier, and with technologies like html5, ajax used in conjunctions with SOA and SAAS these apps perform just as well or better than the app you use to see run on your desktop. Take MS Office 365 and their cloud software for this, this is essentially an SAAS (software as a service) you lease the software it doesn't run locally anymore and the software and its worries and maintenance are pushed to the software vendors, we start to see this more and more. Google has been at the for front of this, and expect to see computers in the near future that are just dummy terminals that run only the basics and all your important software is pushed to a corporate cloud. I'm not saying desktop pcs will disappear but downloadable software will begin to especially in the corporate world.
I pretty much like anything that has to do with technology. I love the history of computers since I grew up and pretty much watch the birth of the home pc and remmeber when the 486dx came out and it was considered the best computer you could get. I remember using the trs-80 in typing class and the atari 2600 (still have one) kelico vision and then the nintendo (still have that to).
And yes I do stay in contact with the department head from my old college. I still use her as a reference from time to time since I worked in college for a little as a tutor (best job to get.. I recommend this if you can). College is about learning in large part but secondly its about contacts and networking. Make sure your networking in college, know your peers and previous alumni. Introduce your self and make sure to attend functions, since the will be potential co-workers or bosses.
So its mondays... I going to maybe do every couple of hours every hours might be to much. But I'm about to dive in to a ton of spaghetti code and try and make some since of it. This is especially ORM (look this up) code for an oracle database, and I'm trying to fix what is broken without having to actually rewrite the whole thing (if it was up to me I would). Be back in a couple of hours.
So its just after 2 and I've had to switch task to help another developer. This is pretty common and as a developer you have to be able to multi task.
So I'm working in creating a way for dynamic where clause can be built or just passed to and object DAO class.
The implementation I'm trying to fix is currently building them in a very static and non reusable way. When you design code it has be thought out and designed in such a way so that things like maintenance on said code is taken into account, and that repeatable processes are written in such a way that the can be reusable. This seems to have non of that.
If your looking at a package or program and see common re-occuring methods then this would be considered bad (imo) and should be re-evaluated and or rewritten so that this process can be written in one spot and referenced be other, this way if bugs or changes need to occur in this process you only have to change it there, this is the most common principle in OOP design but you be amazed at how much it is abused.
While you might be saving time up front your creating time on the back end for thing like code maintenance, upgrades or bug fixes.
It's about 5 for me and I just got home from school. I was at a friends house trying to understand a virus her computer contracted. (smart engine, annoying little thing, but its all better now.)
I'm looking into ORM as I type this. Interesting o:
I ask about the markup languages because ill be taking an html5 course next term. Makes sense that id learn about them along the way.
Sounds like you can handle quite a bit all at once, does that develop with time?
Html 5 is not like the previous htmls. So yeah this will be the next big internet language think web apps and pages that are totally dynamic. Good choice.
The multi tasking can be learned... good habits and time management... mostly learning the most basic of issues there's probably 5 or so and how the efficiently solve the problems and with what tools. Tools are very important every thing from ant or scripts to automate task to custom libraries.
Here's one, it's sort of a snarky developer joke.
You can have software.. done fast, done cheap and done right. You can only choose two though.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
Hey Sorry
Sorry I been super busy. There small a small re-org in my department and I changed cubicals (this office space) and now I sit next to the "I've done it all programmer". The I've done it all programming can do everything, and its was always easier.
So hows the paper going?
Done!
It was a pleasure to write after talking with you, thank-you.
I get my grade sometime next week.
Thank you Simmons I am in 9th grade and am in a it trade school and I have thinking of going more for software thank you for all this I will finish reading these when I get home
sent from one ba hero
After looking at Android's fragmentation, the pain that one has to go through for every damn update is really getting to me! Google has really screwed this one up big time...its funny to even see the number of different screen sizes, hardware configurations android is being used. No standardization makes it a nightmare for developers to write applications that are consistent. Its hard to imagine that google has been so short sighted!
Asus is surely a brilliant company to have come out with a great tablet (and their newer tabs are kick ass too at great price points). But its really bothersome if I'm always in some sort of dependence on the manufacturer to release OS updates - this is just plain crazy! If Google's aim of ICS was to converge all devices to use the same OS, then why aren't they supporting manufacturers or insisting on all manufacturers to push out an update?
To start things, Google has really messed up their long term roadmap with fragmentation issues...and I would expect a company of that scale to atleast put in some sort of contractual commitments with all its manufacturing partners to roll out updates to its customers within a given timeline.
Here is what I would expect Google to have implemented yesterday, if they really need to retain popularity towards Android and keep it growing -
1. No more fragmentation moving forward. Standardization of screen resolutions, minimum performance requirements, ram, storage requirements etc.
2. Device manufacturers must commit to issuing software updates within some timeline from when google has an update.
3. Manufacturers dont decide if the update can run on their device or not - it must be google who decides this, and should be decided based on hardware specs
Now with Windows 8 on the horizon, I would definitely wait it out and move over to a Windows 8 based tablet. Knowing Microsoft, they're perhaps the only company who invests a lot of time and thinking in getting things right. It shows clearly from their development tools/platform, their emulators, clean implementation rather than an iterative approach etc.
Last android tablet for sure! And I'm hoping windows phone 7 will mature too, and its windows 8 variant should be a lot more promising. Thats when I would phase out my Galaxy S and head back to MS
What are your thoughts people?
cheers,
San
dreamtheater39 said:
Knowing Microsoft, they're perhaps the only company who invests a lot of time and thinking in getting things right.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
haha, you made my day XD ...btw. throwing the word "vista" into the ring ^^
coming to win8. i just read an article today that the arm version of windows is most likely not able to run desktop programs. asuming that: WOOOOOW, Windows 8
If you prefer a monolithic OS to the liberty you get with Android that's your choice.
Personally, I do not. I do not like being locked into one vendor who gets to decide how I use my device.
I like having a choice between a smartphone, a 7", 8.9", 10.1" or even 11.5" tablet, or even a laptop that I can run the same OS (Android) on.
I love the Transformer. I have one device that is truly a tablet and, with root, also serves the full functionality of a laptop. What can Windows offer me that does this? What can iOS offer me that can replace my Transformer?
And that's besides the fact that with a Windows device I'm stuck with an OS that I am familiar with the shortcomings of, and unable to do anything about. Or with iOS that, again, no one can fix but the manufacturer (if they feel like it).
Yes, fragmentation of the Android platform is a bit of a problem. The Market addresses this, somewhat, by only showing software you can install on your device. Most Android devs are sensitive to their customer's needs and a polite email is frequently responded to positively, and usually with a fix in short order.
Frankly, I consider the fragmented markets (GetJar, Market, Amazon App Store, etc) to be a far larger problem than fragmentation of the OS, and I don't consider that to be anywhere close to a large problem.
Hmmm my thoughts
1. They have set an agreement with there partners. A new timeline that they must update devices within a set life span for a device think it was around a year and a half have a google on it. (p.s year and a half aint bad considering how fast mobile tech is moving)
2. It should not be a problem for devs to write apps for ics and the differences in hardware are accounted for
3. ms well thought out vista ms dos longhorn??? ms dos was not future thinking and very short sighted especially in terms of ram!!!!!! if anyone remembers vista was a plain mess!! and longhorn didnt even meet the public. Not to mention the many other flaws or screw ups (anyone remember xp early days it was hackers heaven)
4. At its roots android is linux google the track record for updates and security between ms and linux then whie you're at it google how many servers in the world run linux compared to ms
5. The biggest flaw of all ms was a single user platform a pc the first pc they now want to make it multi user and move toward cloud computing etc etc linux has been doing this for years so inherantly android can do the same ms on the other hand is having to kick there own ass so hard bills teeth have been replaced with hes toe nails
6. I like win 8 and 7 for one reason gamming and a couple programs i just cant get otherwise but as soon as i can do these things elsewhere or linux based i will.
You do have good points but i just wanted to step in as the other side of the coin.
Sent from my tf Enigmatic V2 beta 1.65Ghz Panda.test cust kernel settings
If you really want to be assured you can run everything on every device I suggest you look at Apple. The iPad will continue to be the dominate tablet for years to come and then you can be assured that everything will be packaged nicely and controlled in the manner decreed in Cupertino.
Open source means a trading a messier support structure for more innovation, and is not for everyone.
blestsol said:
Just leave please and get your ipad.
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Enough said, whining isn't usefull here.
Seriously what do you want us to say? Good writting nice information, thanks for the info!!
I mean wtf?
Reported the thread.
Klau you do relise where XDA stands for and what the DEVELOPERS word means behind it?
XDA is for developing and helping people when they want to use costum roms or other non officeal related subjects
If you are unsatisfied with a device use the offical forum of ASUS, thats the right place!
Are any of the responses written by a mod?
So since when did everyone get appointed the responsibility to decide what is allowed to be discussed on this board, which isn't even the developer forum, it's on the general forum.
If you don't think the topic is relevant to you, just don't enter it. Let the mod do their job.
---------- Post added at 11:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 AM ----------
blestsol said:
Ooc, you don't agree of disagree... Why you responding? People use words wrong so much... Fan boy? Man you reaching. Foh. You sick of something ignore it and take your own advice. Dip from the thread. Simple ass that for your simple ass.
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Learn to read, I said if you disagree, state your reason.
I've stated my reason of disagreement regarding the unfriendly atmosphere of this board.
You're grasping at straws that don't exist look who's reaching lol
klau1 said:
Are any of the responses written by a mod?
So since when did everyone get appointed the responsibility to decide what is allowed to be discussed on this board, which isn't even the developer forum, it's on the general forum.
If you don't think the topic is relevant to you, just don't enter it. Let the mod do their job.
---------- Post added at 11:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 AM ----------
Learn to read, I said if you disagree, state your reason.
I've stated my reason of disagreement regarding the unfriendly atmosphere of this board.
You're grasping at straws that don't exist look who's reaching lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I didn't disagree. My post said what I meant. What he was describing is what ios can give him. Please show where my fan boy thoughts are though. In my short sentence.
I'll wait for that though.
Sent from my ADR6425LVW using xda premium
silversx80 said:
Oh, the irony :
Here's the thing, the OP is an open-ended criticism on things the android community praises about the android platform. Praising those things does not make one a fanboy, nor does calling one a fanboy render an ages-old demotivational poster anything less than a sophomoric response in the hopes that a chuckle will sway the reader over to your point of view.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope, face palm has always been my actual sentiment about the responses here, and pictures help prevents a large post from getting ignored.
silversx80 said:
Someone criticizes the platform as a whole, one which others really enjoy (including myself), and makes the declaration that they're moving over to another, which is much better. Their assessment is based only on opinionated observations from their point of view, which is hardly an inconvenience to anyone else. Of course they're going to get a "get the f*ck out" response, and deserve nothing less. It's like when the Christians invaded the Turks and tried to convert the entire group of people.
It brings up the ages-old motherly line of wisdom: If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all.
There is nothing wrong with desiring something that is better for your uses, but use that as a premise. Don't start by lambasting the opposition, especially when you know what the system is about and you know the offerings of the competition. Some people may actually enjoy the things you don't.
In my opinion, ALL of the devises and software are AMAZING when you consider what the all do.
Instead, we get a bunch of non-contributing, product-zero, whiny little girls. You know what, that's fine; next time you think of complaining, go make your own. As soon as yours is better, then you can complain about other offerings.
Until then, STFU and GTFO.
P.S. If android will be more successful as a standardized platform, we'll see it move that way. I write that with reservation, as android is currently the #1 mobile platform in the world, so they must be doing something right... much to the chagrin of the OP.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Look, every reasonably intelligent person understands trade-off exist. Simply one comes to mind:
can a "God be powerful enough to create a rock so heavy that even it can't lift it?"
Usability comes at the expense of functionality, everyone should understand that.
But people forget that sometimes, not a big deal, just explain it to them instead of acting like an internet bully. That doesn't help your point across.
silversx80 said:
It brings up the ages-old motherly line of wisdom: If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just because you disagree with the OP doesn't mean it was not "nice" or offensive
lol's were had reading this thread.
klau1 said:
Just because you disagree with the OP doesn't mean it was not "nice" or offensive
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Click to collapse
Dude, basically what he did was akin to going over to VW Vortex, complaining about all the reasons why his little 2.5 Golf was not like the current offerings from Toyota, and said that when the new Hondas come out, he's getting one of those.
There is no purpose in his post other than to demean and criticize. There is nothing productive, nor contributory about it. No, I didn't have to read, nor post, but I felt compelled.
If someone want's to leave for a better personal option, that's fine. If they want to make a scene and flip the table on the way out, then they shouldn't expect a positive reception to their announcement.
As much as I hate Apple, I do think that progress requires contrast. What do I mean? We need a solidified company like Apple that keeps pushing the same standard but slightly better (that's like peer-reviewed science). We need a looser society of innovators like Google's associates who play around at the edges of what we expect at the moment (who are like fringe scientists, some contribute great genius ideas, and some who completely **** it up). For me, I like the fringe scientist; I understand the need for peer-review, but I think I'll stick with Android for at least the next tablet too.
A WARNING FROM THE MODERATOR
A WARNING FROM THE MODERATOR
Play nice..........
talk nice ........
Or you will be banned.......
And I will close the thread
To those who reported this bad behavior, thank you
Keep it civil, Folks
Thanks ~ oka1 Moderator
Did they demo a Windows 8 ARM device at CES? I am very curious as to how Windows 8 will perform.
This is a very interesting project that could either excel if developers jump onboard, or crash horribly if developers reject the idea of Windows on ARM.
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk
Interesting feedback from all you guys!
Just to clear things out, from where i come from -
-I've always loved android for the flexibility it gives me. I've always made custom roms, modded the hell out of every device i've ever had, starting way back from the Pocket PC days! Android - seemed like the most perfect option for me.
-I've always stayed away from Apple, for a myriad of reasons - they dictate everything, and i hate that. And also, i hate being in the bucket of half wit fanboys who bought one just to be "cool"
-I work for one of the biggest game companies, and i'm responsible for technology direction for smartphones, tablets. So, let me tell you what this looks like from a developer's view point -
A game is always written for iOS first - reason being, the platform is standardized in terms of display resolutions, hardware capabilities. Testing effort is extremely low in comparison (you dont have to test on a 100 devices!)
You have only 2 aspect ratios to deal with - phone & tablet. And you know that your game will run on all the iphones and ipads floating in the world. So this makes it easy from development & testing points of view. And this is the reason why games are "always" developed for iOS first.
Now the fun begins - once the game is done and is out on iTunes, there are large conversion teams which takes care of getting it to run on android phones and tablets. You have to see the hardware inventory we have here - so manyyyy android phones and tablets - and all of these have to be tested to give it a QA greenlight. Even when devices have the same hardware specs, each device behaves differently at times because the manufacturers have written different drivers specific to the device!
And then now, we have honeycomb and ICS - the screen has a static status bar in the bottom which takes away 48 pixels from your screen! Suddenly, your game needs to factor odd resolutions of 1280x752, 1232x800, 1024x552, etc etc. This means - redesigning all your game menus, UI, dialogs so that they dont leak out of the screen - crazy load of work! And then - you can have ONLY ONE APK to support ALL THESE resolutions and hardware configurations!
And then finally to top it all, you have several different market places, custom roms to test on, devices that the developer blacklists because of incompatibility - bypasses blacklisting on the market place because of a custom rom/hack...and he ends up playing the game giving us bad ratings!
The list is endless! I really feel this should not be the case for such a huge platform coming from a really big ass company! Honestly, i feel android made it big because it came in at the right time when the hardware side of things was at a great level - allowing them to give super slick graphics. And they had no other competition (windows mobile was too old, and the other was just iOS). They just got lucky, went without a clear plan - and iteratively refined and fixed things.
Atleast now, I feel Google should really accelerate its efforts towards some form of convergence. Look at the variance that a developer needs to take care of - different hardware configs/specs (ram, storage, processor!) - performance wise, different screen resolutions (a 100 different combinations! literally!), custom roms/modding, different manufacturer driven hardware/software customization, a zillion different OS versions, and so on. All this has to be factored, and we can have only 1 apk! And then finally, the provided android emulator that they provide - is soooo damn sorry, its not even funny. The emulator is literally like a slide show on my really powerful desktop - forget trying to use the built in emulator for developing games!
At the end, the platform lives because of the number of developers who support it. If customers dont have newer and better experiences coming - they would shift boats - its as simple. Making it harder for developers is just shooting yourself in the foot!
-San
dreamtheater39 said:
At the end, the platform lives because of the number of developers who support it. If customers dont have newer and better experiences coming - they would shift boats - its as simple. Making it harder for developers is just shooting yourself in the foot!
-San
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I have a huge problem with this statement, and pretty much the rest of your post. They are not a valid presumptions.
First, the developer and platform support each other. The platform does not live because the developer supports it... I'd argue that it's the other way around, but still a 2-way street. Without the platform, the developer cannot develop.
Second, games from the big developers may be released on iOS first, and some may be released on Android first. Without references, your statement in invalid. If you're only referring to your company, then specify that.
Third, screen resolution (and other oddities) may be a contributing factor in some app developers not bringing iOS apps to Android, but the vetting process of the Apple App Store discourages other developers from even trying to release anything onto iOS. Some devs don't even want to program things for iOS based on principle (and visa versa).
Fourth, the whole reason big mobile-platform app developer companies exist is to make money. Why alienate more than 50% of the market because of screen resolution? That would be lazy and counter-productive to profits.
Fifth, one could argue that it's not the big-time devs who got each platform off the ground, but the small-time devs, who released their apps for free. It wasn't the gaming capabilities that sold Android and iOS early on; that's a very narrow perspective.
Sixth, Android isn't being shot in the proverbial foot by different market places, those particular devices may be. The Nook and Kindle Fire come to mind, but keep in mind that those were sold on the premise that they're electronic readers first, that happen to run a modified version of Android.
I feel that you're upset over Android making it harder for you to earn a paycheck. I understand the challenges involved, but I think you're not looking at the big picture.
I moved to Windows Mobile phones from Palm devices because I wanted better synching with my computer, use of the .Net framework, and ease of customization ability. Turned out that WM was not intuitive on my early phones.
I moved from WM to webOS. Loved it. It was intuitive, smooth and reliable. Customization wasn't very easy, but I didn't care. Also, it had support of the big app developers and had some pretty good games too. Unfortunately, it didn't have support of the small-time app devs because of the difficulty writing apps for it. Where is it now?
From there, I knew that webOS was going to be short-lived, so I moved to Android. No, it's not as stable as iOS or webOS, but it is still a great OS. Small devs can get a chance in the app market, along with big-time devs who write cross-platform.
Windows 8 may be a great platform, but the big picture is that there is no cult-following for Microsoft as there is for Apple. What they need to do is give potential-customers options. Those options need to range from inexpensive, to top of the line. Different hardware, in other words (a nightmare for devs). If they don't, and since they don't have a die-hard following, I suspect it wont gain as much ground as Android did, or even webOS.
Apple has a good customer base, and knows what that customer wants. It's an easy sell. Windows customers are far too diverse and can't accept a blanket-type device range to cover all the wants and needs like Apple customers can. Android addresses those customers by providing options because it's an open architecture. Fragmentation sucks for the devs, but the user doesn't care because the typical user only has one device. Those users are why the devs exist at all.
To sum up, I think three things:
1. Your assessment of Android's shortcomings are somewhat short-sighted and not applicable to the big picture. The user wants the experience of the phone, not the apps. Apps are just noise now, with hundreds doing the same thing.
2. Your arguments are falling on deaf ears, or ears that cannot do anything about your complaints (i.e. I don't think Android's authors are reading this thread with much merit).
3. Your arguments would be better suited in the iOS, or Windows 8 sub-forums.
I was thinking about the horror of all the different Android devices when looking at them from a Dev's point of view (which I am NOT) so I appreciate your openness and insight.
The main reason why I will stay away from an iOS tablet for a long time is simply that the interface on a tablet needs to be more flexible than simply arranging icons to start apps. In other words, as long as iOS does not support widgets there's no appeal to me to buy an Apple tablet. Very narrow-minded, I know. Having an iPh*one (3GS) is not optimal but I am still waiting for an Android phone that intrigues me and is NOT linked to VZW.
dreamtheater39 said:
Interesting feedback from all you guys!
Just to clear things out, from where i come from -
-I've always loved android for the flexibility it gives me. I've always made custom roms, modded the hell out of every device i've ever had, starting way back from the Pocket PC days! Android - seemed like the most perfect option for me.
-I've always stayed away from Apple, for a myriad of reasons - they dictate everything, and i hate that. And also, i hate being in the bucket of half wit fanboys who bought one just to be "cool"
-I work for one of the biggest game companies, and i'm responsible for technology direction for smartphones, tablets. So, let me tell you what this looks like from a developer's view point -
A game is always written for iOS first - reason being, the platform is standardized in terms of display resolutions, hardware capabilities. Testing effort is extremely low in comparison (you dont have to test on a 100 devices!)
You have only 2 aspect ratios to deal with - phone & tablet. And you know that your game will run on all the iphones and ipads floating in the world. So this makes it easy from development & testing points of view. And this is the reason why games are "always" developed for iOS first.
Now the fun begins - once the game is done and is out on iTunes, there are large conversion teams which takes care of getting it to run on android phones and tablets. You have to see the hardware inventory we have here - so manyyyy android phones and tablets - and all of these have to be tested to give it a QA greenlight. Even when devices have the same hardware specs, each device behaves differently at times because the manufacturers have written different drivers specific to the device!
And then now, we have honeycomb and ICS - the screen has a static status bar in the bottom which takes away 48 pixels from your screen! Suddenly, your game needs to factor odd resolutions of 1280x752, 1232x800, 1024x552, etc etc. This means - redesigning all your game menus, UI, dialogs so that they dont leak out of the screen - crazy load of work! And then - you can have ONLY ONE APK to support ALL THESE resolutions and hardware configurations!
And then finally to top it all, you have several different market places, custom roms to test on, devices that the developer blacklists because of incompatibility - bypasses blacklisting on the market place because of a custom rom/hack...and he ends up playing the game giving us bad ratings!
The list is endless! I really feel this should not be the case for such a huge platform coming from a really big ass company! Honestly, i feel android made it big because it came in at the right time when the hardware side of things was at a great level - allowing them to give super slick graphics. And they had no other competition (windows mobile was too old, and the other was just iOS). They just got lucky, went without a clear plan - and iteratively refined and fixed things.
Atleast now, I feel Google should really accelerate its efforts towards some form of convergence. Look at the variance that a developer needs to take care of - different hardware configs/specs (ram, storage, processor!) - performance wise, different screen resolutions (a 100 different combinations! literally!), custom roms/modding, different manufacturer driven hardware/software customization, a zillion different OS versions, and so on. All this has to be factored, and we can have only 1 apk! And then finally, the provided android emulator that they provide - is soooo damn sorry, its not even funny. The emulator is literally like a slide show on my really powerful desktop - forget trying to use the built in emulator for developing games!
At the end, the platform lives because of the number of developers who support it. If customers dont have newer and better experiences coming - they would shift boats - its as simple. Making it harder for developers is just shooting yourself in the foot!
-San
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I thought the name of the game was resolution independence, designing your UI's without depending on absolute values but rather relative values and taking into account resolution size, using DP measurement units instead of PX. The last time I worked on an app was a while ago but even then the app scaled fine from something as small as a Droid 2 to something as large (was large at the time) as a Nook Color or a Galaxy Tab.
So are you saying Apple has it better because they only have two screen sizes? Who cares if there are fifty different screen sizes and fifty different resolutions? If you design your UI and your app correctly with resolution independence in mind it should scale well to most if not every resolution and every aspect ratio shouldn't it?
Even when devices have the same hardware specs, each device behaves differently at times because the manufacturers have written different drivers specific to the device!
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Click to collapse
Are you referring to certain things like how device GPU's vary and therefore certain texture compression methods in OpenGL for example only work with ATI GPU's and not PowerVR GPU's and vice versa?
I do agree that fragmentation exists but only between Android versions such as those running 1.5, 1.6, 2.2, 3.0, 4.0, etcetera but you can deal with this. I doubt they'll standardize hardware. Maybe screen sizes, maybe screen resolutions but manufacturers are there to make money, not play equal to every other manufacturer. If HTC wants to release a better phone with a better resolution to make more money Google isn't going to tell them to do otherwise. The only reason this is different with Apple is because Apple is the only one making hardware for their iOS so there are no companies fighting over each other for profits. They can control the whole platform. Obviously with Android you have multiple hardware manufacturers and they're not all part of the same company, they're looking to make profits over each other and that means devices have varying features. That's just how Android is unless Google makes their own devices and restricts Android to Google devices.
I think I would like the idea of uniformity better too, not as strict as Apple but certain things being the same across all vendors. We're heading that way in a sense since Google is requiring all ICS devices to support the Holo theme. I wouldn't be surprised if in the future we get more restrictions from Google but as for forcing manufacturers to make certain hardware? That I truly doubt. Google has made it possible to work with different devices by allowing you to query for different device features such as checking for a keyboard or a trackball or an accelerometer, use resolution independent practices such as DP measurements and relative positioning, it's not as bad as it seems IMO.
different hardware configs/specs (ram, storage, processor
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Click to collapse
So? What developer hasn't had to deal with this on virtually every system developed on since the origin of computing? Because Apple managed to create an illusion that this is irrelevant by making a handful of devices with fixed hardware and therefore only having to achieve acceptable performance on those devices? Make the decision to alienate those who don't fit the requirements. Alienating a certain group from support isn't going to be the end of the world. Games are sure to use Tegra 3 and those without Tegra 3 devices might be assed out if the game can't scale down. The world continues...
Tubular said:
I thought the name of the game was resolution independence, designing your UI's without depending on absolute values but rather relative values and taking into account resolution size, using DP measurement units instead of PX. The last time I worked on an app was a while ago but even then the app scaled fine from something as small as a Droid 2 to something as large (was large at the time) as a Nook Color or a Galaxy Tab.
So are you saying Apple has it better because they only have two screen sizes? Who cares if there are fifty different screen sizes and fifty different resolutions? If you design your UI and your app correctly with resolution independence in mind it should scale well to most if not every resolution and every aspect ratio shouldn't it?
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Click to collapse
Of course, a lot of work is done to make things resolution independent. But this is not always easy when you want to have some really complex games designed which is heavy on 2D UI. Full screen dialog boxes, Floating UI options etc. are all part of many big game titles developed and ends up being incredibly hard to port across multiple resolutions/aspect ratios. Try looking at some of the user reviews on games - people complain about the smallest of things and randomly throw in a 1 star rating. For a development company, ratings are everything. If your app gets low ratings, it goes unnoticed and thereby killing your chances of earning decent revenues for breaking even - let alone profitability! The cost of development goes up due to higher requirements for development & testing (multiple devices and other fragmentation issues).
Are you referring to certain things like how device GPU's vary and therefore certain texture compression methods in OpenGL for example only work with ATI GPU's and not PowerVR GPU's and vice versa?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Several things here - PVR textures, many open gl calls behave differently on certain devices - for instance the filtering doesnt work as expected on the samsung line of devices because they have their own driver tweaks applied, some devices crash out on a minor opengl warning, while the other devices ignore and continue to run etc. The point here is, you cant see it running on 1 "TYPE" of device which represents a family (same res, performance specs) and assume it will run on the rest. You can release and iteratively respond to user feedback - but you risk getting low ratings and then your game gets buried under.
So? What developer hasn't had to deal with this on virtually every system developed on since the origin of computing? Because Apple managed to create an illusion that this is irrelevant by making a handful of devices with fixed hardware and therefore only having to achieve acceptable performance on those devices? Make the decision to alienate those who don't fit the requirements. Alienating a certain group from support isn't going to be the end of the world. Games are sure to use Tegra 3 and those without Tegra 3 devices might be assed out if the game can't scale down. The world continues...
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[/QUOTE]
When you build games, the objective is to provide the best graphics to the end user with excellent gameplay. Now, if i have to support several hardware configurations i either have a fallback mechanism to have lower quality on lower device (more dev effort, more costs, more testing), or reduce overall quality of graphics all across (bad quality game - low ratings, low revenues), blacklist lower specced devices (killing potential market share - cutting total revenues, risking break even). This becomes extremely critical especially because the games and apps are sold for a measly $1 and every sale is important!
silversx80 said:
Second, games from the big developers may be released on iOS first, and some may be released on Android first. Without references, your statement in invalid. If you're only referring to your company, then specify that.
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Not all developers need to follow this. But any large sized company will invariably follow this approach - mainly from the point of view of monetization. Right now, the fact is, Android is yet not a platform where the big bucks come from. Its still unfortunately the damn fruit company. And the sheer fact about the difficulty in have a game run on android is a deterrent to release on android first. Its much easier to finish a game for ios, throw it on the marketplace, and quickly see how the game did. If people like it, and you made decent revenues, then you could expand to android - which would take a lot more time, money, effort.
Fourth, the whole reason big mobile-platform app developer companies exist is to make money. Why alienate more than 50% of the market because of screen resolution? That would be lazy and counter-productive to profits.
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true, and thats what i mean by the effort it takes on testing and development makes it a costlier bet! Imagine the capital investment - to house all the phones to test on!
I feel that you're upset over Android making it harder for you to earn a paycheck. I understand the challenges involved, but I think you're not looking at the big picture.
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I barely find it hard to earn my paycheck Its my company which has to invest the $$$ to get every game out of the door to hit android markets! And just seeing all the chaos involved in shipping an android title, just makes me wonder why google has made this so complicated! If i have to think from the perspective of having my own startup company making android games - it would give me shivers! Not all companies have the lucky streak of Rovio and those few company that i could handcount.
-San
In case you haven't seen it...
http://m.gsmarena.com/jolla_sailfish_os_detailed_demoed_on_video-news-5104.php
Looks really good, anyone wanna work on a port for our lovely gs3?
Hmmm...doesn't seem to have generated any interest yet...
In an interview with the CEO of Jolla, the interviewer asked if he could put this on his GS3, the CEO replied "Enabling Sailfish for a device such as Galaxy S3 is something that any community member could already do."
The SDK is released online here (I believe)
Unfortunately, I have no technical expertise in this area, is anyone else interested?
Could this be better than Jellybean?
Sent from my SCH-I535 using xda app-developers app
brew182 said:
In case you haven't seen it...
http://m.gsmarena.com/jolla_sailfish_os_detailed_demoed_on_video-news-5104.php
Looks really good, anyone wanna work on a port for our lovely gs3?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd love to play around with it. The Ambiance feature looks really really cool.
A port form a different OS would only be good for the community However, I have no skills in developing or porting so I can't help except perhaps a small donation to whomever gets it done.
Same here, looks fun but no idea how to do it
I want! Looks awesome!
Sent from my SCH-I535 using xda premium
This have to be done! I really want sailfish!
It's awsome .
I's a good OS ! But not for geeks for sure .
It will only turn heads of people who want to use it for daily usage . Not for heavy customizing ,
BTW The gecko / Firefox OS Would be awesome ! as it is an HTML 5 Based OS / or just a web page :cyclops:
Man no Google now voice search. Gapps. Or play store apps.
Its looks nice but right now in this phone world its apple Google and Microsoft. I may want to try out the new Ubuntu os since Google is technically Linux.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda app-developers app
Sure I would still prefer Android as my main platform, but I would LOVE to try this out on my GS3! I've always been an OS geek, and love the feel of exploring a new, beautiful, and innovative UI, as well as learning how the underlying platform works and differs from similar setups. It's why I've been playing around with Linux distros and customizing and tweaking them, Solaris, BSD, etc long before Android, despite the fact that I'm no developer. I would LOVE to be able to play around with different OS'es on my GS3, rather than just different Android roms, and Sailfish is one of the most interesting to me. I'll probably end up using Ubuntu more than anything if we get it, but Sailfish is something new and different and it looks really fun. :fingers-crossed:
Can someone link the story of a Jolla dev saying it can be ported easily by the community? If so, let's get this project started, and find out what needs to be done to make this happen, I'm tired of all these different OS'es coming only to the GNex!
With the re-merge of Android and Linux, and addition of the ARM drivers to the mainline, these types of alternative OS'es shouldn't be terribly difficult to port, and between Alien Dalvik and Google writing all their apps in HTML5 for ChromeOS, we should be able to get the basics of what we need from Android running on here, we just need to get the OS running!!
robogoflow said:
I may want to try out the new Ubuntu os since Google is technically Linux.
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Click to collapse
You realize that Sailfish is also technically Linux, too, right? And you realize that Ubuntu OS won't have Google Now, Gapps, or the Play Store either, right? So why are you naysaying Sailfish but optimistic about Ubuntu? You, sir, make no sense.
Why Sailfish might be a "GOOD" idea too...
The simple fact is I just bought a NOTE 2. First Samsung Device and aside from the S-pen, making a different way of interaction.
We have this to consider. As i have been readng how to 'setup' my NOTE 2 as it's on order and pending... I have come across
threads about how GOOGLE is trying to get 'us' the end users off of SD cards. Other Crap like that... Google has power now,
and they are acting so far like EVERY other US company that gets it. M$, Apple...
It's nice to 'have' something else to look at that is OPEN and someone noted something that is a concern to me. Customizable
look, and features. I myself don't like CRAP on my desktop or my HOME SCREENS... I just don't. When I run Linux, I go with no
icons on my desktop.
So this is so far from what I've seen a bit of a turn off but in the future because the system has to start somewhere... if it's really
open, one would hope such features could be expected. Either 3rd party or by the main OS makers.
There have been enough complaints here by users about devices without SD CARD access. About how Google is trying to cut
this off and how ni Samsung devices Samsung had to 'hack' around it to allow SD card access to apps that were used to getting
it.
I for one for simplicity don't want a stupid OS where all my personal CRAP PHOTOS etc are STUCK in the phone. Just for a simple
reason like that.
Another reason we should all hope for MORE OS's to be released is because lets let the DEVICE makers take something back!
Eventually it only takes one to WISE up... loosing money competing OS to OS or by trying to follow up when they have a good device but for example the ANDROID leader is SAMSUNG. I like that LG picked up WebOS SO they're gonna make Smart TV with it but all it takes is a little pebble to start the Landslide.
THese OEM's we want them to wise up and say... WAIT! There's stuff out there... we make the DEVICE and let them decide what they want on it. Isn't waht we all dream of? Cause then stupid crap like Samsungs Flash counter will be something made obsolete by trend.
Makes will possibly start trying to just concentrate on GOOD HARDWARE just like computers, and then maybe some company will really wise up and the only thing they'll contribute will be a device coming with some kind of AWsome MULTI-BOOT loader system ... Or at least if the devices are open someone can make one... haha.
Also about the Ubunty on mobiles thing... well, it's an interesting idea but seems like they are still not planning to get anywhere with it for a whole year? I wonder why...
Sailfish is using the WHOLE Linux... it's the same thing, but with a UI set for imbedded and small devices. SO all that needs to be done in the future is a step up to a whole desktop for bigger screen devices or if you dock your device to a large screen... so in other words...
Sailfish could have the same potential as Ubuntu...
I have personally never used Ubuntu and hope that with the option of sailfish what we may see is other Linux projects joining the trend. I mean really... it's all OPEN source. What actually bugs me the most as an end users is also the same problem that I see with some Linux projects.
Everyone reinventing the WHEEL trying to make the best this and taht and this is the real reason in some instances it's taking longer to do something that is lying around and could be modified and it's true, I don't speak with any experience in coding or programming but I think some who do know what is said is a bit true in some instances just like in some a total rewrite may be in order.
but if it's OPEN, then the parts are there.
So either way... it'll be good to see SAILFISH and other things. I'm sorry, but the whole TIZEN thing doesn't appeal to me pesonally. If it had more underlying structure other than the HTML 5, cause frankly, I am not real happy about every little thing on my system always
being connected to the internet in some way... though yes, I realize HTML 5 is just a way to create graphics but, remember these are companies we're dealing with here and they always have their own agenda.
Anyway... I'd like to see Sailfish vs Windoz OS, cause Micro$haft has not changed their ways and I don't expect to see them do any different than they have and their system will be similarly locked in ways but differently or in differently places as much as Apple's.
Android is open now but Google is acting weird and some competition and innovation can keep it open longer...
So, I'd love to see Salifsish fly or is that Swim... and of course they need to start somewhere and 90% of they users will be people who just want it to 'work' and that's where they need to go first. Us power users, etc in this forum, we're like the 10% or less now. Before
we were the people buying smartphones but when smartphones are now what the average user is getting their hands on?
Forget it... you bettre make something that they goo OOOH perty, and it's simple. OR you will be lost in the market. I also recall that
Sailfish is coming out here in the Asian market if I read taht right a couple month ago. I am an expat living in CHINA and believe me.
They want it simple and pretty, anything else... and it will fail. But once it hits this market, where a lot of stuff for Android is being made now
if it is accepted... then it will start having things made for it and if it can run Android apps, it's a true plus...
Depending on what hardware it comes out on, if it's able to use the simple apps I use in Android, it may be my next device to replace my daily users...
Obviously the NOTE 2 is going to be my KIND device and isn't exactly for 'daily' use in the way that I use my devices.
Still, the more the merrier and frankly, a lot of OEM's will want to get off of being branded as ANDROID device makers or whatever if they want to sell.
Also it's all good that ANDY is merging back with main kernel, but so far... there is still NO REAL work you can do with Android despite this yet. I do mean, such as prepare a very good OFFICE DOCUMENT, Power Point presentation and so on that you would on a computer. Though I hear the Open Office to Android project is going... so one can but wait and hope.
I would love to try this out on my LG optimus 2x SU660!
brew182 said:
In case you haven't seen it...
m.gsmarena.com/jolla_sailfish_os_detailed_demoed_on_video-news-5104.php
Looks really good, anyone wanna work on a port for our lovely gs3?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wow. should try
I would love to see this OS running on my S3.
very cool... watch the hands on video. Note that they say that android apps will be ported over for the sailfish os, SO i would imagine that even if gapps are blocked etc. that they would likely work for the most part, or could be made to work ... lol :highfive:
Im definitely interested in anything that has quality (obviously this does!) ... and represents a new form of competition
I think this is pretty damn awesome. The hands on videos on YouTube look great, especially the ambiance thing.
Honestly, the phone looks good too but i would rather keep the beast hardware in my S3 and maybe get an S4, but having this OS on it would be awesome.
If someone had a way to dual boot Sailfish and Android, that would be epic.
Sure, it isnt completely and utterly customizable. But Sailfish seems very natural to use and at the same time you can still tap into all the Android apps!
Simple OS + Android apps.. what's not to like?
mandeep1 said:
I's a good OS ! But not for geeks for sure .
It will only turn heads of people who want to use it for daily usage . Not for heavy customizing ,
BTW The gecko / Firefox OS Would be awesome ! as it is an HTML 5 Based OS / or just a web page :cyclops:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is perfect for geeks! Lots of stuff to play with, mod and hack + true multi tasking
robogoflow said:
Man no Google now voice search. Gapps. Or play store apps.
Its looks nice but right now in this phone world its apple Google and Microsoft. I may want to try out the new Ubuntu os since Google is technically Linux.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dat comment. You must be somekind of an expert
/sarcasm
IOS 7 looks like Jolla.