Related
Sorry, newbie so sorry if answerd else where
xda II running fine, put in my new kingston 528meg SD card, seems ok. ran xbackup for first time and is slow so left it to run overnight. woke up message says done ok. BUT now xda can't see storage card at all!! :?
tried reset, same. tried 32meg SD card out of wifes Nokia: sees that fine. cant try kingston SD in Nokia cos its a different physical size
Any ideas? or can you reformat these SD cards in the xda?
Thanks
if pocket mechanics cant formet it because it cant see the card then
a sd reader for the pc they are only like 10$ would most likely see it
or you could try and see if your wife's phone could format it
or another device which use SD cards like a camera
just tried CNetX flashformat but it cant see the card damm why are SD cards different sizes ( wont fit in wifes nokia and camera is Compact flash memory) arrgggggg
are you sure that the nokia use sd?
because the nokia's i've seen use mmc flash which look just like sd but thinner and sd devices can use mmc but not the other way around
did you try pocket mechanics?
doh my mistake yup the nokia 6230 is mmc
tried pocket mechanics to no avail. mate popping round with his xda ii in a mo so i can try his card and vice versa. hes going to take my card and try and format it with his pc which has a built in reader
ill keep you posted :idea:
UPDATE
Card is dead! tried it in mates xda ii and his pc and it can't be seen. off to post it back to China! ( ebay rules )
xBackup isn't what killed your card - it was the XDA itself.
I have destroyed a 1GB Toshiba, and a 512MB Toshiba so far.
My 256MB Kingston has been fine.
...
Put the card to a card-reader/writer(on a PC) and try to check it for errors(Scandisk/Chkdsk). If it doesn't help,try to format the card with standard FAT32 filesystem... My experience is,that the filesystem can be injured the same way as a floppy when you remove it(cut-off data transfer) before is any file not closed for write yet. I loosed once all my important data from SD. The /Storage is the most secure place for my important documents,that I know.
I've just bought a 2gb 120x Moby Memory SD for my MDA Compact...and the it does not recognise it.Upon insertion it says it wants to format the card and says it formatted successfully. However I can not find the card in 'file explorer' or 'memory'. When I look in 'About/Version' it says the expansion slot is in use.
After speaking with Tech Support at Moby (Excellent) - We swapped it out for a 1Gb 80x SD card (their own)...and the same problem.
T-Mobile support is ...chocolate teapot comes to mind!
Out of the box rom: 1.01.00 WWE (21/10/04)
Has anyone got any ideas about this one (greatly appreciated)
Regards
Paul
I don't know that I can comment on your specific problem, as I have a cheap 1GB SD card that works without issues. Your ROM seems to be really old, however, and you would benefit tremendously by upgrading to the 1.11 or 1.12 versions (1.11 is extremely stable and seems to be a crowd favorite). I don't know if it will resolve your SD issues, but it should at least improve other aspects of the phone. (stability, call quality, bluetooth functionality, and camera quality)
Little Survey...
Okay...i've upgraded my rom to the imate Jam 1.12 from club imate site on my MDA Compact to see if the SD card problem goes away....NO it doesn't. This is really frustrating...and the JAM rom is not as good as the tmobile one with periodic slow downs and already one reset.
Anyway folks, I want to see if I can get some correllation with rom and SD cards. So a mini survey for you all. If you have a T-mobile (originally) MDA compact and use an SD card let me know:
Current ROM Make?
Current ROM Version?
SD Card Make/Model/Capacity?
Any problems with other SD cards?
I will publish a summary for everyone later.
P
sd card
i don't have a tmobile compact,
rather a qtec s100, although I got a TMobile manual in my box..
anyway, i have a 2gb 150x speed ADATA SD Card and I have exactly the same problem. If you browse this forum you will see there is one or two more other topics about the exact same issue.. dont think its anything to do with a specific vendor pda i.e. o2 / tmobile.... but rather a jam thing.
I don't think they currently recognise the latest sd cards, although, i've been told they do recognise the 2gb ultra disk from moby memory retailing at about £133.
So, we can either wait for the ROM upgrade to include the latest stuff, or swap or sell the cards and buy another one.. i'm probably doing the latter to be honest as i just cant wait.
ANyway, if you do find the problem, please let me know.
Regards,
Bushmen
Current ROM; Original T-Mobile
Other details in sig.
Have SanDisk SD 512mb, 100% fine from day one till now.
They don't seem to recognise the 2gb Moby SD...because that was my initial purchase. Then I downgraded to the 1gb. They are going to send me another 1gb from a different manufacturer. Moby are having a few of these problems cropping up.
P
2 Gb GB SD doesnt works but 2GB MMC works fine... :?
MDA & SD CARD
Original MDA ROM & Radio V1.12
Bytestor 2 x 1gb hi-speed cards, no problems 100% perfect.
256mb Kingston card, today, no problems so far.
transend 1gb high speed no prob
old twin mos 256 mb card had same problem with you. but after i fomatted it with an external card reader and windows, worked perfectly. (this was used for a digital camera before)
hope this helps
PJS said:
I've just bought a 2gb 120x Moby Memory SD for my MDA Compact...and the it does not recognise it.Upon insertion it says it wants to format the card and says it formatted successfully. However I can not find the card in 'file explorer' or 'memory'. When I look in 'About/Version' it says the expansion slot is in use.
After speaking with Tech Support at Moby (Excellent) - We swapped it out for a 1Gb 80x SD card (their own)...and the same problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do the cards work fine in a PC card reader?
Does "formatting" on the MDA cause the card to be unreadable on the PC (until you reformat it on the PC)?
If so, these are the exact symptoms found on some early Magicians. If the card works in a PC, then it's a fault on the Jam/MDA, not the card, although the fault does vary by card brand. If you don't get the MDA swapped out, you could end up with it randomly wiping your card. See http://www.expansys.com/forumthread.asp?code=I-MATE_JAM&thread=153
If you don't have a PC card reader to test - get one (make sure it's USB2). Life is not long enough to transfer 2GB by activesync!
Imate Jam
My cards:
Apacer 1gb-no problems
Sandisk Ultra 2gb-no problems
Sandisk 1gb (regular)-no problems
For the moment it looks like if you want a 2gb card that works in your Jam, you'd better get the Sandisk Ultra 2gb.
Matterhorn said:
Sandisk Ultra 2gb-no problems
For the moment it looks like if you want a 2gb card that works in your Jam, you'd better get the Sandisk Ultra 2gb.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can confirm, it works on my HTC Magician too, formated with Fat32 on my PC and pluged into the Magician and have full capacity available! Already filled up with 1.4GB of data (TomTom Maps mostly) Really seems the only 2GB SD card working on the Magician :roll:
See my posting here:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/viewtopic.php?t=24988&highlight=2gb+sd
1GB Magu SD Card 120x Hi-speed, dint work on MDA Compact.
1GB Magu SD Card 120x Hi-speed, dint work on MDA Compact.
Works fine on PC Card reader. But shows prompt for "Format" on MDA. When formatted, it does not show in File Explorer, but About Box says explansion slot in use. This card works fine on my Orange SPV (1st model).
I am trying for 512MB 60x speed Toshiba card.
Transcend 4Gig works on Jam - WITH SHIM
The JAM is famous for having innaccurate "travel" in its SD contact mechanical design. SD cards that are not thick enough will give this symptom. The fix is to add a "shim" of plastic or paper to the contact side of the SD card.
I use the sticky part of a PostIt note. Cover the entire card area except the contacts at the bottom. Contact side only. The Transcend 4 gig card is too thin, but adding the trusty PostIt fix now allows me to use this huge ($100) card with no problems. Hope this hack fixes your SD issues too - chuse...
Hi all,
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI...80014389657&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEWN:IT&rd=1
Some eBay store is selling 4GB OEM Samsungs (or so he claims?) for a pretty good price. Please don't scream 'SCAM!' yet until I confirm that I haven't recieved a card from him .
But the real question here is, will this work on a Magician? There are plenty of threads about Adata and Transcend but none for Samsung (yes I realise samsungs are rebranded at retails, but I doubt Adata and Transcend rebrand Samsungs?)! Note the description says 'Support SD 1.1', so hopefully that means a yes?
Thanks!
EDIT: The listing above ended a while back. Theres a newer bunch here: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/150X-4GB-OEM...hZ018QQcategoryZ93930QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem
got one in my charmer but yeah they work on magicians too. tested on an imate jam using the latest 1.12 rom.
Thanks for the info, but my one doesn't seem to work in my Magician... heck it looks suspiciously fake, but I've tested it with a 3.6GB batch of files and it holds brilliantly! It works on my older Dell Axim x30, which really doesn't say anything good about the Magician's SD tech...
Well its a bit last ditch, but anyone got any ideas?
Thanks!
EDIT: dave, I found a similar post of yours on Modaco :lol:... well yea since you seem to have bought the exact same item, I was wondering if you could verify some things for me:
- That I-mate JAM it works in. Do you know its firmware details? I tried flashing my O2 XDA II Mini to WWE_11200_128_11210_ship I-Mate but no difference, it still asks me to format the card upon insertion, and fails to format it anyway :roll: .
- Also did your SD card come with a big, ugly red sticker instead of the nice one in the pic?
Thanks!
toomuchdogfur said:
- That I-mate JAM it works in. Do you know its firmware details? I tried flashing my O2 XDA II Mini to WWE_11200_128_11210_ship I-Mate but no difference, it still asks me to format the card upon insertion, and fails to format it anyway :roll: .
- Also did your SD card come with a big, ugly red sticker instead of the nice one in the pic?
Thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
dont know the firmware as i dont have the phone to hand but its got the lastest rom from www.clubimate.com, as i remember i used the one with the lastest date which is either the file youve mentioned or the UK one with the same date.
my card had a green sticker on it, one which looks like its been printed on an inkjet printer and then torn rather than cut to fit the card!
Would it work with the Blueangel?????
Thanks.
Yea I've tried the latest i-mate international ROM with no success, but I'll get the UK one and try that once my download metering goes into off-peak . I hope that it is a ROM problem and not a hardware one, so then I would have at least an inkling of a chance in getting the SD to work on my XDA Mini!
As for the BlueAngel, I can only say that it won't work on a Wallaby (O2 XDA), but then again thats an era behind the BlueAngel... don't buy it until you're certain, because you won't have much fun trying to get a return from a US seller. What I can say is that its not a fake (tested it by dumping >3GB of files on it), but it does come with an ugly sticker... maybe if you ask nicely the dude will give you a choice of colour. :wink:
Blargh bloody card! Why can't you just WORK!
XDA mini vs. 4gig SDCard.. Help
Hi... pls help anyone.. bought a 4gig SDCard.. first, my XDA Mini wanted me to format it being unaccessible.. then it got converted to only 2.1gig.. its working though (but at that reduced capacity!). I had it replaced (thank goodness my seller was kind).. but its prompting format again due to being unaccessible.. and cant do that again..
is there any software-fix available?
pls.. urgent need help..
thanx..
Re: XDA mini vs. 4gig SDCard.. Help
Still doesn't work!!! Even on UK i-mate JAM ROM. Now I'm resorting to farfetched ideas such as filling the card up to 2GB and 3GB (still in progress) and putting autorun programs on it (doesn't work). I've tried it on FAT16, FAT32 and even NTFS with no luck, partitioned it to 2GB with no results. A few more questions, if you don't mind?
- Did your i-mate prompt you to format your card upon insertion, or did it work on the get-go?
- Was it formatted or partitioned in any particular way?
oicnev said:
Hi... pls help anyone.. bought a 4gig SDCard.. first, my XDA Mini wanted me to format it being unaccessible.. then it got converted to only 2.1gig.. its working though (but at that reduced capacity!). I had it replaced (thank goodness my seller was kind).. but its prompting format again due to being unaccessible.. and cant do that again..
is there any software-fix available?
pls.. urgent need help..
thanx..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lucky you ! Yes I had the same issue with my Dell Axim x30, what I did was that I used paritioning software to delete the entire 2GB partition, then to paritition the entire 4GB as FAT32... and it worked! So from my view, if your PDA is able to format a certain memory card, even partially, that means it can read it whole BUT it can't format it properly. Hence you format it for it .
a 4GB card would be sweet on a Magician
However, i read on several posts that they have poor compatibility with the Magician; or the Magician is picky on handling certain brands. I thinking of getting a 4GB MMC card [green Adata] on Ebay, because they seem to be more realiable on the Magician from what i have read.
The green Adata 200x MMC 4GB cards can read 30MB per second. Is that slower then the standard or ultra SD cards? Curious, because I've read that SD are suppose to be twice as fast as MMC cards.
dream_sequence said:
a 4GB card would be sweet on a Magician
However, i read on several posts that they have poor compatibility with the Magician; or the Magician is picky on handling certain brands. I thinking of getting a 4GB MMC card [green Adata] on Ebay, because they seem to be more realiable on the Magician from what i have read.
The green Adata 200x MMC 4GB cards can read 30MB per second. Is that slower then the standard or ultra SD cards? Curious, because I've read that SD are suppose to be twice as fast as MMC cards.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I guess you would hafta believe the speed ratings on the cards, hence I presume a 200x MMC would beat the pants of any other flash memory card under 200x, regardless of whether it was a MMC, SD, etc.
Yea I've read of poor Magician compatibility with any cards above 1GB. But what baffles and irritates me most is that dave106 has (seemingly) exactly the same bloody card working in his mate's i-mate JAM, yet my bloody thing will prompt me to format everytime - if I don't, it doesn't read, but if I do, it formats to RAW and doesn't read :? !
hmmmm... examining the 4GB card using Paragon Partition Manager gets some interesting results! Here's the card when properly formatted:
Code:
Partition 0, hard disk 2
Volume label:
File system: FAT32
Drive letter: G:
Serial number: 00000000
Sectors / boot: 32
Sectors / cluster: 8
Size (capacity): 3.8 GB (4.120.833.024 )
Used space: 7.7 MB ( 0%)
Free space: 3.8 GB (100%)
Physical sectors:
First: 63 (Cyl 0, Hd 1, Sec 1)
Last: 8048564 (Cyl 500, Hd 254, Sec 63)
HDD info: Cyl 501, Hd 255, Sec 63
...and here's the card after a stint in Magician's 'format':
Code:
Partition 0, hard disk 2
Volume label:
File system: Unformatted
Drive letter: *:
Serial number: 00000000
Sectors / boot: 0
Sectors / cluster: 0
Size (capacity): 3.8 GB (4.120.833.024 )
Used space: 2048 GB (53363%)
Free space: 3.8 GB (100%)
Physical sectors:
First: 63 (Cyl 0, Hd 1, Sec 1)
Last: 8048564 (Cyl 500, Hd 254, Sec 63)
HDD info: Cyl 501, Hd 255, Sec 63
2048GB used??? Even if I delete the partition on my SD card so it becomes RAW, the used stays put at 0 bytes. It seems as though the Magician gets confused as hell when formatting this card... wonder why?
when i got the card, stuck it in the PC and it was already formatted. Put about 3.5gig of music on it and a few days later tried it out in my mates jam and it came up fine in the memory cpl and in file explorer.
Still no luck... after numerous reflashes and ideas, i've given up on this card. Thanks for all the help anyway dave! My uncle has a XDA Mini as well so I'll try it in his later.
howdy,
not too sure wether this revelation applies to your 4gb cards, but I found out many previously unrecognizable sd cards( upto two gigs) were readable once formatted with sktools.
- No, this is not a joke, try it and lets see whether it applies to 4 gig cards as well.
cheers
RE SKTools
Hi.. just tried SKTools.. I couldn't use its feature for SD Cards, it couldn't detect any SD CARD when i inserted my 4gig SD Card, but it could, when i inserted my 256MB...
But thanks,, i found it so useful for alot of my other pocket pc concerns..
HELP...
Thanks for the tip thormdac, but no luck with it either - doesn't detect the memory card on my XDA Mini, and even if i slot it into my Dell x30 (which can read the four gigs perfectly fine) it cannot format the card such so that it can be read by the Magician. BLAH!
Anyway the seller has offered me a refund, which is either very kind or very suspicious depending on your mindset but I think I'll take up the offer - after I try it in my uncle's XDA Mini on Saturday. Losing ten bucks kinda sucks though :roll:.
Oh and btw I also ran the card through this handy formatting tool from Panasonic/Matsushita - the guys who enforce the SD 1.1 standard. It only works for cards up to 2GB, though even when I partitioned the 4GB card to fit under the limits it spat out an error halfway.
On another note: Another SanDisk eBay scam
Sandisk Ultra II 4GB cards don't exist! I was going to report him, but the sneaky bastard avoided mentioning 'SanDisk' at all... plus the 1-day listing makes me suspect that his account might have been hacked. I just hink it's sad there's these scammers around since there are inevitably people who are going to get sucked in by this :x
OMG!
It worked in my uncle's XDA! In frustration, I carefully dissected my Magician with the help of my uncle only to find... errr, nothing. HOWEVER when I partially put it back together (the first two layers of the top-back panel were still off) and switched it on to test, the card bloody worked! Not knowing what I had did, I put it back together only to have it not work again! @#$!
HMMM... again I pulled off the top two layers of the rear and it worked. Eventually we figured out that if we tightened the screws on the rear panel too much, then the Magician would refuse to read the card properly. A bloody manafacturing defect. Peeling off that fat red sticker on the SD card also helped, and eventually the Magician was reliably reading the SD card!
This might go some length in explaining why 4GB SD cards won't work in the Magician while others will - the thickness of SDs may be putting too much pressure on the contacts in the slot, which are already under some pressure by the panel on top of the SD slot. The only difference between my uncle's and my XDA Mini were the bootloader versions - v1.00 and v1.02 respectively - which seems to indicate that my uncle's is an earlier model - perhaps they don't make them like they used to? Note that my XDA Mini reads every card fine BUT the 4GB - I still cannot come up with an explanation for that, considering that this reading problem seems to be a mechanical problem.
I don't know if I'm right at all, but perhaps if anyone is having problems reading SD cards in their Mini, you might want to try opening the cover above your battery panel (its plastic, held by hinges, you should be able to figure how to open it if you're brave enough) and adjusting the tightness of the screws holding the panel underneath (you WILL need a TORX screwdriver... bloody small one too, 'TORX 06').
Thanks for all your help too!
4gb Sd card not working in Imate Jam
Thanks for the tip "toomuchdogfur" untightening the screws on the back of my T mobile MDA has now allowed me to use my new 4gb SD card ,before it would constantly suggest to format card .
Hmmm... so its not a single case after all. I wonder if there are a large number of Magicians with this fault?
4gb sd in magician
Hi guys , Ihave been driven mad by the imate jam ( magician ) not recognising memory cards, so I contacted imate support and got this reply:
Dear Sir,
Thank you for your E-mail. Regarding your query, please note that the SD card standard is limited to 2 GB and our devices are fully compliant to the standard. Cards with the capacity greater than 2 GB are not compliant to the standard and we cannot guarantee that they will function correctly. As to transferring speed limit, we recommend not using ultra speed SD cards with the speed more than 64x as they either will not work or may pose problems later. Also we would like to inform you that some SD cards need to be formatted using any PC / Laptop (supporting SD cards) before using with our devices.
Regards,
Technical Support - i-mate™
So I finally sent my jam back for repair under warranty as the backlight kept going off too and now it seems to be ok . I did wonder about the thickness of the memory cards because some do feel like a tight fit. I have also read on various forums that the jam cannot manage larger than 2gb size memory cards and lots of owners seem to complain of the same format/ reformat problems.I am looking at getting a 4gb card but don't know which one to try. Most uk available ones are 150x speed. Any I mate jam users with good advice on this topic? :!:
Update 18/10/06
Today I received a Kingmax 4gb 40x sd card from Dabs.com £54.48 and it works in my I-mate jam straight out of the box, no formatting or anything. Finally I can hardly believe it!!!!
http://www.dabs.com/ProductList.asp...y=All&PageMode=3&NavigationKey=0&SearchType=1
ps. MMC plus cards don't work at all in my Imate jam ,although an old ancient 256mb mmc card works.Guess it really is all down to the speed. Keep it below 60x and its hunky dory!
I had a 512 MB SanDisk Ultra II Plus SD and it worked perfectly with my Magician and I decided to upgrade to the 1 GB card of the same type.
When I insert the card into the Magician I always get a dialog:
'Do you want to try to format...'
Then I answer yes and after a while I get
'This storage card has been successfully formatted.'
Unfortunately, after that the card in not visible by the filemanager or any other program.
On the other hand the card works perfectly both with a card reader and the USB side.
Can anybody help?
I bought a 2Gb Kingston card that was behaving in a similar way.
I downloaded the evaluation version of Flash Format. That sorted the card out and it has run perfectly in my Magician since.
You might also need to upgrade your ROM.
No problems with my m500 or my m1000
My magician (An Orange SPV m500 actually) has worked fine with my phone .. and an m1000 I own, with no upgrades or anything.
I got exactly the same problem with that card, but the weird thing is that it actually worked one time. I did like 20 putting/getting out and one time it recognized it and worked ok until I pulled it out. I got pretty old ROM version (1.06), would it benefit getting the newer one concerning the SD card?
Help: unable to use SanDisk 1GB SD (solution)
I found a solution.
Glue to the contact side of the SD a small piece of paper (see photo). You might have to experiment width different paper thickness.
Why it works I do not know (the paper decreases the pressure on the contacts) but it does work.
hi guys your forum is great cant stop reading.But i have an issue i recently bought an 4gb mini sd card for my phone the card works but is like it works when it feels like if i put it in and wait for a while or just randomly turn the phone off and on it will work i format it using my card reader through windows on fat32 and all the thing is it works but i should not have to be going through all of this for the sd card to work.
My next problem is i recently upgraded to SNN Edition Version 3.0 LITE and i have to say i love it but before my phone could detect my sd card and from i did i upgrade its not detecting my card at all to be on the safe side i took out the card before the upgrade and now its not detceting at all please can any one help me is there a patch i can use or something HELP!!
i think try to format via fat16 option. i had earlier 2gb kingston card sdmini after formatting it works welll
i was doing some reading and i was told that 2gb is the highest for formating with fat16 i have a 4gb card so this cant work for me a even look in properties and the only option is fat32.any body else as any more in puts.
4GB cards are almost exclusively multilayer, and cannot be read by the Wizard's card reader. You are basically limited to 2GB, and it should be formatted as FAT, not FAT32, as was already noted. If there's a 4GB model that's single layer, that's great, but I don't know about it. (...not saying I'm the definitive authority, either...)
which program can i use in windows to format the card in FAT and not FAT32 and as i said before the phone could read the card before i did the upgrade the only thing its takes a while for the phone too detect the SD card and thats in FAT32 format but i will try the FAT format.
from my experience you can't put ANY 4gb minisd card into the wizard and have it work correctly since it uses double buffering which the wizard doesn't support.
you have 2 options.. either buy a 2gb one.. or format only half of the card in FAT ...as myrddin said.. this might use only 1 buffer..
if that doesn't work, you can look for a program which blocks clusters and block half of the clusters on the card. that would certainly work but you won't be able to get 4gb out of that card ever again.
i'd go with the first option.. 2gb cards aren't that expensive nowadays.
well guys i bought the sd card for my phone and i research before buying it and it caused work so there must be a way for this to work even if i have to split it in 2 partitions but i am at work now so when i get home i will work on it (good thing i bought that card reader) lol but i will give you guys an update soon i plan to format the card in fat16 all 4gb if that dont work i am going to split the partition in 2 but i would love a single partition but what ever works.
I have a 2gb SD Card...
Hey guys... i have a 2gb kingston card (micro SD with adaptor to miniSD), but i have the exact same problem... my wizard just stopped reading the card! Sometimes it reads, but suddenly wizard stops, i have to make a soft reset and.... the card is gone... i formated it to fat32 and fat... and it still doesn't work... any idea? thanks
nir36 said:
from my experience you can't put ANY 4gb minisd card into the wizard and have it work correctly since it uses double buffering which the wizard doesn't support.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Correct-o-mundo.
Another common problem (related more to card readers than just to Wizards) is that the reader contacts (and even the card contacts) can become worn, dirty, or corroded. Try removing the card and battery, and get in there with a VERY bright light, a magnifying glass, and some cotton swabs dipped in isopropyl. Clean the metal contacts on both card and Wizard. Be careful not to soak the chip. Damp, not wet. Soak the chip and you WILL be buying a new one soon.
Let things dry COMPLETELY before trying anything, or you'll be sorry.
sd card is not vissible
hi all i have 1gb memory card it is not visible in all device i tried in a cam mobile and computer can any give me a idea to use