Database Users

Wizard or Athena?

I'm torn. Really torn.... anyone else facing this dilemma?

1) Do you want a keyboard? Yes->Question 2, No->Athena.
2) Can you wait until sometime in 2006? Yes->Hermes, No->Wizard.
That would be my logic.

I haven't heard about the Hermes......
I do want a keyboard. I bought my BlueAngel for that reason. However with the advent of the I-Tap input thing I would prob be ok without one.
Suppose I now have a third option to contemplate.
Hermes?
Lewis

http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?t=730935
Some information for you:
Athena: XScale processor at 400Mz, EDGE, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, FM Radio, and a 2.1MP camera. No keyboard, just like the Magician, but it will be slimmer than it.
Hermes: just like Wizard, but has UMTS, front-facing camera, and a 2.1MP rear camera.
Not sure if they're dropping EDGE to put in UMTS, or if it will be a USA-friendly UMTS (unlikely, since we don't have our act together yet).
So, the Hermes is the Wizard's answer to the Universal, and the Athena is the sequel to the JAM.

I am unfamiliar with what EDGE and UMTS are..
However i gather they are some kind of 3G based technology, which I am not all that interested in.
I gather the Hermes will be a sort of 3G version of the Wizard. As I said i am not interested in 3G yet as i can't really see a use for it. As for an FM radio thats outdated now anyway! Surely it should have been a Digial Radio!!
In light of this I'll probably end up buying a Wizard. it suites my needs (because its basially a new Blue Angel) and I could do with a phone soon as my BA has almost toally packed up. But theres still nagging part of me that says may-be hold on for the Hermes.
Slightly off topic but I also breiefly considered the Universal. Until I realised it was THE single most ugly thing on the planet... seriously.
Lewis

Its not ugly, just huge!

I think it's both!
Especially when it's closed. Theres too much blank space around the screen....eww.
But anyway tis only my personal opinion ;-)
Lewis

Is there any hope Athena will be released before the end of the year?

O2 Said the Athena would be realeased about the 30th of October

O2 Said the Athena would be realeased about the 30th of October

BigDamHero said:
O2 Said the Athena would be realeased about the 30th of October
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You mean O2 Asia? This is good news, but I was rather referring to the release of a US or Europe model (SIM-unlocked). Any announced release date?

Decions,.Decisions.
The release of the news about the Athena, or XDA Atom, has completely confused me to.
However I have managed to rationalized it this way.
With intellipad, quickwiting, software, (especially quick writing, once you get used to it) and my think outside blue tooth fold out keyboard. don't really need keyboard.
Besides which it looks pretty fragile and it is just another thing that can go wrong or brake.
Without the keyboard I also get a smaller slimmer far more pocketable device to boot with a much stronger all metal case to boot (shame they did not keep the silver brushed aluminium).
What else do I gain, well a much faster CPU, a far superior camera and a proper SD card slot over the wizard, ard 128 Megs of ram, the long awaited in built WiFI, a built in radio and of course WM2005 over the Magacian,
So the choice for me will be to hang onto my XDA II for now and hang on for the XDA Atom to arrive in the UK, I just hope it does and I can get one on 02 contract to save myself a few pennies.
Thank for the chat guys
Regards Ash'e.

arg0 said:
You mean O2 Asia?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope this what what I got from O2 UK. They said it was the tennative release date.
Lewis

Re: Decions,.Decisions.
Hey Sion
sion said:
The release of the news about the Athena, or XDA Atom, has completely confused me to.
However I have managed to rationalized it this way.
With intellipad, quickwiting, software, (especially quick writing, once you get used to it) and my think outside blue tooth fold out keyboard. don't really need keyboard.
Besides which it looks pretty fragile and it is just another thing that can go wrong or brake.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I completely disagree. I have had my Blue Angel for a year and the keyboard is invaluable. I can type rediclously fast on it ;-)
Intelipad and Quickwriting etc. will never compare to an actual hardware keyboard. I use my phone to send 100s of SMSs a day (no really). Could NEVER do that without a proper hardware keyboard.
sion said:
What else do I gain, well a much faster CPU, a far superior camera and a proper SD card slot over the wizard, ard 128 Megs of ram, the long awaited in built WiFI, a built in radio and of course WM2005 over the Magacian,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The processor in the Wizard has actually been benchmarked to be quite good. As someone else said in this forumn one day people will realise you cant just measure processing speeds in clock cycles. Take it from an Athlon 64 owner!
As for the camera they tend to be sh*t on all pocket pc devices becuse of the lense they put on them. Resolution doesnt come into it most of the time.
For me wanting a keyboard I think I'll probably get a wizard because it's a smaller version of my Blue Angel. Though it'll probably be on ebay when the Hermes comes out
Lewis

Have you tried Quickwriting Yet!
It may seem strange but I can beat most people on a slide out keyboard using quickwriting, it takes quite a lot of getting used to but once you get the knack it is unbelievabley quick.
You never take your stylus of the pad and it very quickly forms a highly efficient shorthand as you start to use it properly.
give it a try, don't try to rush & practice a litte bit each day and I guarantee that you will be pleasantly surprised within a couple of weeks plus because you don't take you're stylus of the pad you can use it on moviny London buses, whilst you are stood up in rush hour traffic between stops like I am now..
Regard Ash'e

BigDamHero said:
Nope this what what I got from O2 UK. They said it was the tennative release date.
Lewis
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It has not even been announced yet by O2 UK: will they really release a phone less than one month after announcement?
Are O2 phones sim-locked?

They Want it, just can't get it.
Just finished having supper with an O2 UK director (not marketing Dept), it appears that they do feel that that the XDA Atom, is going to be the ultimate lifestyle device & accessory, and a little more robust & a tadge more pocket friendly than the wizard & they are going to eventually add it to there UK product portfolio.
However with the device not even released yet & no real UK release dates truthfully on the horizon, & in there words: "our current XDA range is becoming slightly dated & cumbersome", they need to do something, and the Exec & Mini Pro appear to be the temporary solutions, until the Atom is released that is.
So I will forgoe the Mini Pro for now & stick to my dated XDA IIs in the hope that they secure some Atom stock and release dates soon, also have spoken to people who already have their Wizards and the general concensus is that the slide out keyboard is very fragile, so I think it is time to start investigating when & how to lay my hands on an XDA Atom. I still want that holy grail of smartphones & I think the Atom is going to be pretty damn close to it so.
It always taken more courage to dare to be right, than fear to be wrong.
So by hook or by crook Atom it is then.
Regards Ash'e

Hmmm.
I remain unconvinced by the Atom/Athena.
If I wait for anything I'll wait for the Hermes. It actually brings something new to the table.
Decisions Decisions!
Lewis

ATHENA
THE GODDESS OF WISDOM WHO WILL REIGN OVER ALL.
BLESS-UP.

Things look clearer now
After reading the reviews other people have given about there Recently purchased Wizards on the other forum I passed this comment:
Fantastic reviews chaps, everything I wanted to here, so in light of all that when and how can we all get our hands on HTC Athenas or XDA Atoms, it would appear every gripe here would be answered quite easily by purchasing an Atom, better size, lack of keyboard, faster CPU, more robust and ergonomic build and feel, 2.0 camera, these are you're thoughts not mine, all we all really wanted anyway was a HTC Magician with Built in WiFi, 128 megs of ram and WM2005 and in the Atom were getting it and a few extra bits all in that Magician size we new & loved.
As I said in a previous post: It always takes more courage to dare to be right, than fear to be wrong.
Regards Ash'e

people disapointed by the Exec ?

Hi all,
i read more and more people wanting to sell their brand new exec, BARELY USED... Are people disappointed by it and think it doesn't worth the money ???
I am really wondering what is wrong with it... and i don't have one yet, but i am thinking about getting one... now reading more and more bad reviews on it, dispointment and people selling it after less than a week of use... i am really hesitating to buy it, even though i ve waited it for many months !
What is your opinion about it and do you think it really worth 1000 € ??
Thanks,
Mike.

I would NEVER recommend it for a housewife, but if you are just a little bit tech savvy, AND have a weekend to spare setting it up according to guidance on these forums, it's great. If you do not, you could be extremely miserable with the speed and unacceptable bugs such as BT turning off.

I think a lot of it is people hoping to make a quick buck. I mean, £229 + £8 x 12 = £325 total outlay. People are selling them for upwards of £400 pretty much the same day with just about no risk and keeping a free 5mb/month sim card. Either that, or they just don't need a new handset and are taking advantage of the demand for Universals.

As a phone its no good for me just too fiddily, i use it as a data centre and pocket pc with a seperate phone, for this it is perfect

I think its a great little device. Don't get me wrong, if you expect it to have no bugs you will not be happy but as with all new technology, it will take time to iron them out.
In the meantime, I am happy to live with the minor glitches. It wont take long until the Exec is supported better (and also WM5) and this should be when this device comes into its own.
As for the functionality as a phone - I really am getting used to it

xiasma said:
I think a lot of it is people hoping to make a quick buck. I mean, £229 + £8 x 12 = £325 total outlay. People are selling them for upwards of £400 pretty much the same day with just about no risk and keeping a free 5mb/month sim card. Either that, or they just don't need a new handset and are taking advantage of the demand for Universals.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is spot-on. That's exactly what a few people are doing. Sure there are some people who have been disappointed with theirs, but honestly, what were they expecting? Most people who are complaining are either newcomers to the PDA/Phone world, or they're installing every damn WM2003 software they've ever bought and killing their machines with incompatible software. IMHO
I couldn't ever personally justify €1000 for any phone/PDA device, but for €500 it is an excellent machine. I love mine. Perhaps I'm biased. Just remember that it's an early release of WM5 and there are a few bugs. They'll be fixed in time though and they're not fundamental IMHO.

@xiasma, which tariff is £8 per month? Can you purchase this online?

I agree with what's been said so far. If someone came to this even from a Nokia smartphone I think they could be disappointed, as they are phones first and pda/gadgets/whatever second whereas the Universal is more like a high-end pda with a phone that happens to be built in. Even coming from a non-phone PDA (as I did) takes a little getting used to imho, since I used to have a far more cavalier attitude to installing stuff on my ipaq whereas now with the Universal I need to consider "will people still be able to ring me if I install this shareware demo?". Stability and reliability is very important for a phone, but for a small portable computer I tend to think that features and what-can-I-install-next are key. These are almost mutually exclusive characteristics and so finding the right compromise is a fairly personal decision I think - although it will probably divide into those two camps.
Going off-topic a bit, it would be nice if there were a 'phone only' kind of safe mode on the Universal, so if you do get something buggy going on you can set it to phone-only mode until you get round to sorting the problems, safe in the knowledge that at least the phone will work.
What do you think?

jah said:
@xiasma, which tariff is £8 per month? Can you purchase this online?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's the Data 5 tariff - purchase from an O2 shop, not online. You maybe able to buy it over the 'phone.

I think people are after quick bucks as well, to me the Exec is buggy, not because of the device but rather the reliablities of WM5. Performance wise it's decent even with O2 active, my major issue is I can't get most of my most often used softwares to work properly in WM5.
Size wise, I was really surprised as it's not nearly as big as I originally imagined, it's only slightly bigger than my old IIs. I think couple ROM upgrades, I'd love this thing

I am glad you guys started this thread. I too want to purchase an HTC Universal, but was having second thoughts because of the bad comments I read about it.
I do have one question though, "Is it plague with soft resets?" How often do you have to perform a soft/hard reset?

First, my hypocrisy: I have an XDA Exec, I've let the opportunity go by to return it and I'm probably going to persevere.
Next, the rant...
I think it is a complete disgrace for this product to have been released as it currently is. It shouldn't be necessary to spend a weekend getting a consumer device up and running. The bugs in the software are not "kinks", they are key pieces of functionality that simply do not work. Microsoft, O2, Vodaphone would have picked up these within 1 day of normal operation without installing ANY other software and yet they release the product and charge you for it.
Here are some of my most obvious examples:
* The phone pad T9 entry method does not work. On a clean O2 active install, this works until the first soft reset and then no more. Using the corporate mode, it works for a while and then stops.
* Microsoft Voice command, which has a link for purchase displayed directly on the Windows Mobile 2005 MS website does not display contact information when dialing a contact.
* About the first thing you have to install is an app to properly close applications because the memory management is so poor that you're constantly having to soft reset, or go into settings and close all programs. Ok, perhaps not a bug, but surely within a day of using a beta of the device ANY MS employee could go "oh, well, I guess our backgrounding method of memory management doesn't work".
I have hard-reset my device many times and yes, it's possible to make it work provided you put enough attention into it, but it's supposed to be a productivity tool and yet it's taken many more hours to use than it's saved.
This is the kind of experience the world had to put up with when Windows 95 was launched and I thought Microsoft had finally reached a point where they were able to release decent software (like Windows XP), but clearly they're still happy to release rediculously low quality products.
What I do plan to do is to harrass O2 as much as possible regarding this. Make them wish they'd never sold the product because of what it's costing them to support. As MS now have OEM resellers carefully positioned between the end user and themselves perhaps doing this will eventually put pressure on MS to stop insulting us.
What's sad, is that they're doing it again - Palm have just decided to start running Windows Mobile, so it's only a matter of time until the Microsoft monopoly has been extended to PDAs as well. And the crazy thing is that this isn't because of it even being a nice product to use (bugs aside). How can MS (who have been developing software for such a long time) be so completely clueless when it comes to software design. Reading this site confirms that I'm by no means the only one complaining:
* Nice, expensive crystal clear screen, brand spanking new OS and web browser. Oh, you can't browse in 640 X 480. Never mind...
* No full screen terminal services. Never mind...
* Let's not bother with a task switcher. It's much easier to go through the menu every time.
* Why provide a decent file explorer, people will never use it.
Every time, the support community comes up with nice freeware apps that fill all the holes and on the next release of the OS, all the same holes are there. It's like MS lock all the app designers and developers in a room and don't let them near an end user.
Believe it or not, this post not from an old Microsoft hater, but I'm surely becoming a new one.
There, I'm done...
Dave

It is better than the BlueAngel!!!
I received mine in from O2 the other day and from just running Win2005 and included software, this device really seems to be an improvement over my MDAIII, which I have never yet been able to work solidly in a years's time of playing with it. The build quality is very good. However, my 2 primary 3rd party applications - Goodlink push email and Tom Tom Navigator 5 - do not intall and work. I have been told that the Tom Tom will work if the CABs are transferred in manually, but I have not yet tried that. My Dictionary and Bible programs installed and work fine from their SD chips. But the only thing now is to wait for everybody to tweak apps to Microsoft 2005. This device should start to take off after that starts to occur. However, once HP with their iPaq 6515 upgraades to 2005, then that should be major competition to HTC - even though HTC makes those as well :lol:

There are absolutely, catagorically, 100% certainly, no arguements, LESS BUGS in my brand new WM5 JasJar than any WM2003SE device I've owned previously.
I agree with some points made though, software which works on WM5 is few and far between, and even if you find some which says it works, it may still cause problems...Look at SPB Pocket Plus which slows the JJ to a crawl if you put a storage card meter on your today screen.
My advice is to be patient and accept that because you've bought the first WM5 device, there will be some time to wait until there's software available that's not only "Compatible with...", but actually "Designed for..." WM5.

Very pleased I didn't own a WM2003 device older device then. It still doesn't change the fact that they've released a product with full knowledge that it doesn't work.
In terms of other applications, I completely accept that installing old apps on WM2005 may cause problems. I'm refering to the product "out the box".

daveb1976 said:
It still doesn't change the fact that they've released a product with full knowledge that it doesn't work.
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Click to collapse
What "doesn't work"?
Everything that came with my JasJar works perfectly.
Your t9 problem is not something I've heard anyone mention before. If you've done a hard reset and it still doesn't work, I'd send it back to O2 and get them to replace it?

I've already taken it back twice and it's been swapped out both times. There are a number of people on this forum who have had the same problem. Here's one posting.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/viewtopic.php?t=30591&highlight=
I guess it's possible that if I were to flash to the imate ROM it might work, but then I lose my warrantee.

TBH, I disagree with just about EVERY point on your list
I'm certainly not aware of glaring bugs or omissions. Quite the opposite, in fact. I'm using an MDA Pro - perhaps the XDA Exec's extra software is the cause for most gripes.
daveb1976 said:
* The phone pad T9 entry method does not work. On a clean O2 active install, this works until the first soft reset and then no more. Using the corporate mode, it works for a while and then stops.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I hate T9 so I've never tried it on the Universal. Then again, with a full keyboard, why would I?
* Microsoft Voice command, which has a link for purchase displayed directly on the Windows Mobile 2005 MS website does not display contact information when dialing a contact.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I use voice command all the time and it works PERFECTLY for me. That's well beyond my expectations. Now I can't say I've noticed your issue with contacts, but then again, when I use voice command it's when I'm not really using the screen or keyboard.
* About the first thing you have to install is an app to properly close applications because the memory management is so poor that you're constantly having to soft reset, or go into settings and close all programs. Ok, perhaps not a bug, but surely within a day of using a beta of the device ANY MS employee could go "oh, well, I guess our backgrounding method of memory management doesn't work".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Totally and utterly disagree
First of all, MS are trying to get people away from traditional Windows thinking of starting and stopping applications. They want to give the perception of everything just always being there and ready. This wasn't an easy decision for them, but I believe it was the right one. OK, for all us techies and PC-savvy types, yeah, we know what's going on in memory. But lots of consumers (your mum, for example) don't. And this is actually a behavior of the APPLICATIONS, not of Windows Mobile. Take a look at the developer's guidelines and you'll see.
Also, if you want to *terminate* an application that was not designed to be terminated using the (X) button, go to Settings, Memory, Running Programs. You can close any or all applications there. And that's been part of Windows Mobile since at least 2002, if not sooner.
I have hard-reset my device many times and yes, it's possible to make it work provided you put enough attention into it, but it's supposed to be a productivity tool and yet it's taken many more hours to use than it's saved.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's your experience, but so far removed from mine it's untrue! Then again, I've installed almost nothing extra on my Universal.
[snip]
* Nice, expensive crystal clear screen, brand spanking new OS and web browser. Oh, you can't browse in 640 X 480. Never mind...
* No full screen terminal services. Never mind...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah, I'm in 100% agreement on these two.
:evil: :evil:
* Let's not bother with a task switcher. It's much easier to go through the menu every time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See my comment about Settings/memory/Running programs. You can use this as a task switcher too. But the idea really is to discourage this kind of Windows NT/XP mindset.
* Why provide a decent file explorer, people will never use it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Another brave decision for MS is to try to make files easier for consumers to understand. The idea is
"I don't really understand file systems. Why can't I keep all my documents together? In fact, why do I even need to know where my documents are kept? I just want my spreadsheets to be presented to me when I go to Excel; I want my pictures to be presented to me when I go to picture viewer; etc"
MS had a stab at this with Windows 95 and "My Documents". They have abandoned this in Windows Vista in favour or something more like Windows Mobile's "show you what you need when you need it". All these utilities really will become obsolete for all but the most techie users. My companies products are following the same ideology in desktop and mobile software.

sub69 said:
daveb1976 said:
It still doesn't change the fact that they've released a product with full knowledge that it doesn't work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What "doesn't work"?
Everything that came with my JasJar works perfectly.
Your t9 problem is not something I've heard anyone mention before. If you've done a hard reset and it still doesn't work, I'd send it back to O2 and get them to replace it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The T9 PhonePad bug is described in other threads on this forum and I've found that my device has the same problem. However, I don't personally find this in any way restrictive since the Universal has ...umm... a full, usable, hardware keyboard.
All these PDA/phone machines have been best after several experiments with their configuration. I did a hard reset this morning so that I cleaned off all my experimental applications' legacies and now I'm running trusted, tested apps that work well and bring huge positive benefits.
However, people who just want a machine to work out of the box will find Microsoft's core applications are crap and empty of features. I fully agree with daveb1976 about that. I disagree that they're particularly buggy though.
Fortunately I (and many others on these forums) actually enjoy messing about with the configuration and tweaking the machines to get them working 100% the way we want. It's part of the pleasure of owning them IMHO. Not everybody will share this pleasure, though, and so some frustration is understandable.

SiliconS said:
However, people who just want a machine to work out of the box will find Microsoft's core applications are crap and empty of features. I fully agree with daveb1976 about that. I disagree that they're particularly buggy though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, I completely disagree. In fact, of almost ALL the 100s of computers I've used and owned, I'd say that it is less true of the MDA Pro than it is any other computer (maybe except the Z88)
Fortunately I (and many others on these forums) actually enjoy messing about with the configuration and tweaking the machines to get them working 100% the way we want. It's part of the pleasure of owning them IMHO. Not everybody will share this pleasure, though, and so some frustration is understandable.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll agree with all of that though

Should I buy the universal

Hi,
I'm planning to buy a T-Mobile MDA Pro in the near future, but I am somewhat doubting wether I should.
Toi me, the 640x480 screen made me decide to go for the MDA Pro instead of the MDA Vario (Wizard).
I currently own a Nokia 9500 device, but it doesn't quite cut it:
- It's fairly slow, starting up the calendar takes 2 to 5 seconds, even if I keep it loaded it will take at least 2 seconds to redraw the GUI.
- Symbian (esp S80) is very incompatible, most symbian progs are for the S60 series, and there isn't a lot to find for Symbian S80
- Programming on it sucks, Symbian C++ seems to date from pre-ansi, and it's a pain to work with. I have tried it but gave up, and a lot of people I spoke to said Symbian programming is hell.
- Then Java is incredibly slow. This is my only programming language available atm on this device, and a program, even just "hello world" will take at least 10 seconds to boot, during which the device will be completely locked.
- The camera quality is horrific.
- No jackplug for normal headphones, and no pre-made converter available. Also the Nokia pop-port headphones tend to get off very easily after which it keeps playing at the same volume, but trough the system speakers. (which will result in the whole bus looking at you! )
Anyway, this kind of summarizes what I pay attention to.
If I buy an MDA Pro, I will be using it to phone, games (emulators & OpenTTD), internet (loads of MSN too), and some programming. I will mostly use the calendar and notepad for School.
What I've heard from the MDA Pro that I don't quite like but can't confirm
- Supposedly slow
- No way to attach mass-storage (like USB) with a converter.
Now I would very much appreciate if you as owners of the HTC Universal could give me some advice on this. I really don't know if this device is as good as it sounds, or not. and if I buy it, it's too late because I will have to sell my old N9500 and I would have to sign for 1 year t-mobile :/
Thank you in advance,
TB

First: don't buy MDA Pro!!! Buy XDA Exec, even if it has all the same annoying bugs, at least it looks good! :wink:
Second: Answers to your questions can be EASILY found on this forum, even in posts from last week so please, take a time and respect other's time and read it through.
1) yes, it's not a speed demon, but there are some ways to make it acceptable
2) No, (at least not yet) you can't attach any external drives to the Universal.
But it's definitely much better than Nokia 9500!

rottie said:
First: don't buy MDA Pro!!! Buy XDA Exec, even if it has all the same annoying bugs, at least it looks good! :wink:
Second: Answers to your questions can be EASILY found on this forum, even in posts from last week so please, take a time and respect other's time and read it through.
1) yes, it's not a speed demon, but there are some ways to make it acceptable
2) No, (at least not yet) you can't attach any external drives to the Universal.
But it's definitely much better than Nokia 9500!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the info, I kinda got both of those answers before, but in some forum topics I didn't quite trust (they seemed very biased).
I was actually looking for other things that I might have overlooked, or something that I didn't like about my nokia that wouldn't be solved on a Universal...

XDA Exec is more appealing to look at, I admit, but can you get the tariff to match your needs? I found web n walk from T-mob to be the best all round tariff. Might be different for you and your needs, but please look beyond the colour of the phone case.
HIH
Joe

joebongo said:
XDA Exec is more appealing to look at, I admit, but can you get the tariff to match your needs? I found web n walk from T-mob to be the best all round tariff. Might be different for you and your needs, but please look beyond the colour of the phone case.
HIH
Joe
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's the reason I'm sticking to T-Mobile: It has "Pocket Internet Totaal" in the Netherlands for 10E a month, unlimited internet access capped to 64kbps
(While my current operator charges 3E per MB)

Universal/Jasjar/Qtek 9000 - too slow and heavy
I've had in the past the original XDA, then the II then the IIi.
I recently gave away my IIi and bought a Qtek 9000.
The Qtek 9000, after a few days trial, is going back!
In my humble opinion it's way too slow, and the size and weight are too much too carry it casually. As a mobile office for a patient touch-typist with tiny fingers it might be the business but it's not really a pocket creature.
The XDAIIi was perfect and I miss it! I'm going to order the Atom instead but would have no qualms about buying another XDA IIi if needs be.
Just my tuppence worth! No offence meant to Jasjar fans!
Best regards to all!

I would suggest to review again the installed applications.
From the beggining of this week I replaced Pocket Breeze with Calendar Plus and SPB Pocket Plus with VijayOKButt and VijayTrayLaunch and hey - now you can finally see that 520Mhz!!! What an improvement!! It's so much faster, especially the screen rotation. And you save about 4MB of memory not mentioning that these applications that I installed are free.
I still have my XDA IIi together with EXEC and sorry, but I just couldn't come back to QVGA :wink: .
I've just received an extra battery for my Exec bought of Ebay, now I'm just waiting for Vijay to find out the way to enable the keys while the lid is closed and then I'll be one happy Exec user! (oh well, until the summer when I'll have to think how to carry it wearing shorts :lol: )

The biggest Universal problem

Microsoft behind the thing! Operating system and applications in one dish and no big boy can eat in it. No competition. No killer apps coming from who knows where. No unskeduled innovations. No hurry to cover, bugs created, market holes.

And now in English? :shock:

S'funny I seem to have quite a few third party apps on my Universal, some of which I use more than any pre-installed ones from MS.
Also if you don't want to use MS products why not buy a nice Symbian based pda phone? The Motorola a1000 is nice and the SE P range.

IMHO
The biggest problem is not any one thing in particular...
Yesterday I used an old, disregarded & completely discarded Sony Ericsson T610 - which is about 3 years old.
So T610 Vs. Universal?
Of course one is a bluetooth mobile phone the other is clearly much more... but when you look at the fact that surely the primary function for a Universal has to be voice communication it made me think...
The T610 paired with my Motorola H500 BT headset immediately, it dialled, redialled and held calls with perfect clarity & reception. For being an old phone.. I was actually amazed at how speedy it responded making calls, accepting calls, switching from BT to phone, etc etc
all this was achieved with absolute effortless stability....
That made me think how 'awkward' my M5000 is in similar operations... the dropped calls, the dropped BT connections & so on... you know, all the issues we simplly just 'put up with'
Sifting through this forum again & reminding myself of these many different issues we've all at one time or another experienced with our Universals such as stability, responsiveness, performance & the like are the biggest problems
Shame really.. as on paper the Universal is indeed a very fine unit - in operation however it leaves a lot to be desired...

philtech44 said:
IMHO
.. but when you look at the fact that surely the primary function for a Universal has to be voice communication it made me think....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fact? Get real. No one in their right mind (not even MS or O2) would claim that the primary function of the Universal is voice communication. Even your own sig makes that obvious

Ineedtoys said:
philtech44 said:
IMHO
.. but when you look at the fact that surely the primary function for a Universal has to be voice communication it made me think....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fact? Get real. No one in their right mind (not even MS or O2) would claim that the primary function of the Universal is voice communication. Even your own sig makes that obvious
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What? not a phone?
Then why is it provided by mobile phone companies?
... as a flagship model!!!

philtech44 said:
What? not a phone?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You claimed that voice was the PRIMARY function. If that's the case, why did you pay all that money for the VGA display, large keyboard, 3G, and Pocket PC / Windows Mobile OS, for something that doesn't even have a caller display on the cover? But since you've got the M5000, let's look at Orange's own buy-line:-
"The Orange SPV M5000 is a 3G PDA that can be used to make and receive voice calls"
There you go. 3G PDA first, voice last. No attempt to call it a "phone", like Sony make no attempt to call the T610 a "PDA".
Then why is it provided by mobile phone companies?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Err... Now you are being silly. Who gets the revenue from 3G and GPRS usage?
... as a flagship model!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It might be flagship model, but it's a DATA centric device for business users, which is why the whole design is geared to using as it as a mini-laptop replacement.
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Click to collapse
Indeed. There are plenty of other devices more suited if you need something more "Phone" like. Sounds to me like you just bought it because it was the most expensive, instead of what was right for your needs. That's hardly HTC's fault. :roll:

I kind of agree. I think alot of the phone has been spoiled by ONLY using Windows. (i dont think windows is crap and are not trying to slate it)
There are a few features that other phones have that make them well trick, wee lights that change colour, torches - a bunch of stuff that, lets be hounest you do not need but, makes the phone cool and helps to justify the massive brick in your pocket.
like why was VGA not supported properly? why dont the external buttons light up? why not a torch with the flash?
just my tuppance worth
JAmes

I think one of the major issues here is that the PDA operating system is trying very hard to fit in with its parent, Windows XP. So, just as Outlook, MS Access etc struggle to work with vCard formats, so does the PDA. In this day and age, when even kids tend to have two mobiles (or two cell phone numbers), how can your Contacts database be limited to one mobile number but umpteen fields for landline voice/fax numbers.
Soon, at least in the UK, mobiles are going to overtake landlines (it may already have done so for private/residential users, I don't know).
As a Mac user, I can easily transfer numbers between the Mac, SE P910i and Nokia 9500, and all the mobile numbers for each contact come across (on the N9500 you have to just change the field def, which isn't a prob) but having transferred 600+ vCards to the M5000, I lost all primary mobile numbers and only got the second or third preference mobile across.
At the very least, you should be able to add/redefine fields in the Contacts database -- I've looked and can't find any info or facility for this. That is just one of the deficiencies of WinCE/WM5.
Actually, I'm hoping that now Apple has adopted Intel chips, one of these days they're going to announce a Mobie version of OS X -- now that would be something. I'm sure a lot of users would at least try it, and many of those would even migrate (I can dream, can't I?)

Ineedtoys said:
philtech44 said:
What? not a phone?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You claimed that voice was the PRIMARY function. If that's the case, why did you pay all that money for the VGA display, large keyboard, 3G, and Pocket PC / Windows Mobile OS, for something that doesn't even have a caller display on the cover? But since you've got the M5000, let's look at Orange's own buy-line:-
"The Orange SPV M5000 is a 3G PDA that can be used to make and receive voice calls"
There you go. 3G PDA first, voice last. No attempt to call it a "phone", like Sony make no attempt to call the T610 a "PDA".
Then why is it provided by mobile phone companies?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Err... Now you are being silly. Who gets the revenue from 3G and GPRS usage?
... as a flagship model!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It might be flagship model, but it's a DATA centric device for business users, which is why the whole design is geared to using as it as a mini-laptop replacement.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Indeed. There are plenty of other devices more suited if you need something more "Phone" like. Sounds to me like you just bought it because it was the most expensive, instead of what was right for your needs. That's hardly HTC's fault. :roll:
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Click to collapse
ineedtoys - has the cheek to say I bought the most expensive toy with a username like that?!
javascript:emoticon(':?')
I'm not going to argue whether the primary function is a phone or mini-laptop/pda, etc etc
or whether a T610 is PDA or indeed a bacon sandwich or something...
As with any MULTI-FUNCTION device - they are simply different things to different people dont you think?
ineed, the title of this thread is "the biggest problem..."
I believe the fact that the phone function of the Universal is not what it should be makes it the biggest problem for me & I suspect quite a few others...
It's quite clear you don't agree with that.. I never made that statement to p*** you or anyone off... or feel the need to argue my case... it's my opinion... and essentially what I'm saying I suspect many would agree with.. However, you haven't yet joined in with the thread and offered your OWN view on what you believe is the biggest problem...??
So, in your view, what is the biggest problem with the Universal ??

@philtech44
I'm wth you - the Universal should do the basic functions of a cell/mobile phone at least as good as the T610 or a K750. A SIM free Universal is between $900 - $1000. For this kind of money you should be getting the best communications device. My daughter's free Moto v3X shows the gap in communication capability of the Universal - you see these are both 3G phones and the extra capacity of 3G improves voice calls, but not on the Universal!

jah said:
@philtech44
I'm wth you - the Universal should do the basic functions of a cell/mobile phone at least as good as the T610 or a K750. A SIM free Universal is between $900 - $1000. For this kind of money you should be getting the best communications device. My daughter's free Moto v3X shows the gap in communication capability of the Universal - you see these are both 3G phones and the extra capacity of 3G improves voice calls, but not on the Universal!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My point exactly.. my crappy old T610's phone functions including bluetooth worked effortlessy well... my M5000 felt like a Nokia Cityman in comparison and this is wrong...
and yes - for a flagship 3G device.... well... I will say that out of the Universal and two baked bean cans connected via a piece of string... yes, the Universal wins... :lol:

sipat said:
I think one of the major issues here is that the PDA operating system is trying very hard to fit in with its parent, Windows XP. So, just as Outlook, MS Access etc struggle to work with vCard formats, so does the PDA. In this day and age, when even kids tend to have two mobiles (or two cell phone numbers), how can your Contacts database be limited to one mobile number but umpteen fields for landline voice/fax numbers.
Soon, at least in the UK, mobiles are going to overtake landlines (it may already have done so for private/residential users, I don't know).
As a Mac user, I can easily transfer numbers between the Mac, SE P910i and Nokia 9500, and all the mobile numbers for each contact come across (on the N9500 you have to just change the field def, which isn't a prob) but having transferred 600+ vCards to the M5000, I lost all primary mobile numbers and only got the second or third preference mobile across.
At the very least, you should be able to add/redefine fields in the Contacts database -- I've looked and can't find any info or facility for this. That is just one of the deficiencies of WinCE/WM5.
Actually, I'm hoping that now Apple has adopted Intel chips, one of these days they're going to announce a Mobie version of OS X -- now that would be something. I'm sure a lot of users would at least try it, and many of those would even migrate (I can dream, can't I?)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes sipat.. that is definitely another big problem
As far as Apple is concerned & being a Mac specialist myself, you could only imagine a OSX Mobile OS... simple, effective, robust and as far as connectivity & compatibility is concerned.. well we live to dream eh?

I'm sorry I don't agree. At the current point that technology stands you will not get an open OS multi-function device operating as well and as effeciently as a closed OS phone. Granted that Symbian may be more stable, but then it is the much older more experienced OS too.
The T610 has basically one job, it operates as a phone, using it's own software, which has all been written to work together at the expense of ignoring other possibilities.
The universal has an open OS which has to allow third parties to add software, that dosn't even exist yet. This open software is bound to be slower, it has to be, it has too many possibilities it has to consider.
Comparing the speed of a T610 and a universal is like comparing the Fuel economy of a Bicycle and a Jeep. They are 2 entirely different things.
I do know what the biggest problem for the universal is. It's the end user, the majority of which are completely outside of the intended trarget audience, and missuse a little knowledge badly.
Funny how my Universal never drops call, bluetooth works perfectly for handsfree and GPS. I can't remember the last time I soft reset, and when I did it was only part of the installation of new software. It dosn't crash, freeze or run any slower then I'd expect. Why is this? Am I just incredibly lucky?
However I have been using PDA's for a long time, and have come at this device as a PDA with a phone built in, rather than the other way round. If people think a T610 is better, (and yes I did have one once). Then you have bought the completely wrong device with a Universal, because while your T610 may be faster, my Universal is providing so many more functions.
(EDIT): lol Wow, that wasn't intended to come out as such a rant.

Gajet said:
I'm sorry I don't agree. At the current point that technology stands you will not get an open OS multi-function device operating as well and as effeciently as a closed OS phone. Granted that Symbian may be more stable, but then it is the much older more experienced OS too.
The T610 has basically one job, it operates as a phone, using it's own software, which has all been written to work together at the expense of ignoring other possibilities.
The universal has an open OS which has to allow third parties to add software, that dosn't even exist yet. This open software is bound to be slower, it has to be, it has too many possibilities it has to consider.
Comparing the speed of a T610 and a universal is like comparing the Fuel economy of a Bicycle and a Jeep. They are 2 entirely different things.
I do know what the biggest problem for the universal is. It's the end user, the majority of which are completely outside of the intended trarget audience, and missuse a little knowledge badly.
Funny how my Universal never drops call, bluetooth works perfectly for handsfree and GPS. I can't remember the last time I soft reset, and when I did it was only part of the installation of new software. It dosn't crash, freeze or run any slower then I'd expect. Why is this? Am I just incredibly lucky?
However I have been using PDA's for a long time, and have come at this device as a PDA with a phone built in, rather than the other way round. If people think a T610 is better, (and yes I did have one once). Then you have bought the completely wrong device with a Universal, because while your T610 may be faster, my Universal is providing so many more functions.
(EDIT): lol Wow, that wasn't intended to come out as such a rant.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Firstly, nothing to be sorry about... BUT gajet do stop it!
Do yourself a big favour & dont try to turn my simple statement into a silly
HTC Universal Vs. Sony Ericsson T610 contest... that is not what I said!!
you've foolishly twisted my very SIMPLE point into something utterly ridiculous my friend!
Your comparison between bicycles, Jeeps and the like is also junk pal!!
Kindly go back to my original post and take it at FACE VALUE...
A phone is a phone. A PDA is a PDA.
A PDA with a phone is what it is and so is a Phone with a PDA...
the point is anything that calls itself a phone, whether or not integrated with a toaster or a kettle, PDA or surgically inserted somewhere interesting, should therefore function both properly and effectively, and with some degree of quality as a bleedin' phone!!!
Do you agree with that statement or not?
It's quite clear... the Universals performance as a phone is somewhat cr*ppy for todays technology - its a let down, no question about it. Could be & should be better!
I've compared only that function, to a phone that was designed 5 years ago, manufactured 4 years ago and released to the public thereafter.. and that FACT is my only point here in this thread...
Now as for your own personal experience of Universals, well might I suggest searching the forum for threads which cover the FACT that the Universal - for some of us - does drop calls, Bluetooth is temperamental, are forced to soft & hard reset, and so on... I mean why is the Universal forum so huge with 100's of 1000's of views in its history, with issues AND fixes abound?
But again I must stress, my personal view is the Universals phone function is cr*ppy compared to what it really should be... This is 2006... not 2001... if you dont agree lets see what phone performance will be like in HTC's next generation & equivalent of the Universal...
Do you think they will upgrade all the other functions and leave the phone as it is then?!
get me now??

philtech44 said:
IMHO
So T610 Vs. Universal?
...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually it is exactly what you said.
And my points which you completely missed are if you are going to compare the Universal to other devices, it should be compared to it's peers, not to a completely different device. Compare the Universal to the other similar PDA/phone combos by HTC, a HP Ipaq phone edition, it would even be fair to compare against a Moto a1000, SE P910 etc
Of course these devices improve over time, my Universal is considerable better than my Blue Angel, which appears in turn to have been better than the original XDA range. So yes the next device will probably be better still, but then where on earth did you get the impression I ever thought otherwise.

Gajet said:
philtech44 said:
IMHO
So T610 Vs. Universal?
...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually it is exactly what you said.
And my points which you completely missed are if you are going to compare the Universal to other devices, it should be compared to it's peers, not to a completely different device. Compare the Universal to the other similar PDA/phone combos by HTC, a HP Ipaq phone edition, it would even be fair to compare against a Moto a1000, SE P910 etc
Of course these devices improve over time, my Universal is considerable better than my Blue Angel, which appears in turn to have been better than the original XDA range. So yes the next device will probably be better still, but then where on earth did you get the impression I ever thought otherwise.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So I did!! errr... whoops!
But still it should still operate as a phone mate & do so well.. it is sold by mobile phone companies isn't it?

No I agree with you 100% there. However when I compare the Universal to other devices of similar functionality on the current market, then it comes out very well.
In fact where I hang out usually at 3g.co.uk, they compare the Universal against other 3g phones, (Which I do realise goes completely against my main point :roll: ), but the Universal still comes out very well.
Yes the universal could be better, (mainly speed wise), but at this current point in time it does very well.
I wish I could clone mine to pass around to all those having troubles, but my suspicion is that most troubles are generated when some tweaking, or installation of third party apps are involved, or more commonly when the damn phone companies insist on using their own versions of HTC's software, (O2 Active and the damn Orange homescreen for example).
Anyway all the above is purely my oppinion, I had no intention of getting into any personal arguements and hopefully we have come to an understanding here

Gajet said:
I do know what the biggest problem for the universal is. It's the end user, the majority of which are completely outside of the intended trarget audience, and missuse a little knowledge badly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi. I don't want to crank this up to another level, especially after the last post about coming to some understanding. Us Mac guys know that you can get quite emotionally attached to your gadjets, Gajet, but that statement above is so condescending!
I don't think you give people enough credit -- some may have bought their phone because it was the most expensive and is had good "showing-off/one-upmanship" value, but most of have acquired to manage our work and life. When you pay a premium price, you expect a premium product. Using your analogy, you wouldn't expect to have handle-bars instead of a steering wheel in your Jeep, eh?
In my opinion, it is fairer to compare the functionality of a PDA with similar functions on a desktop machine. and, my gripe is still about the Contacts database -- I want editable fields and true vCard compatibility. I don't think I'm expecting too much from what is supposedly a mature product (the Contacts bit is based on Windows for PC tech after all). As this is my first Win based mobile OS I'm still trying to sort out certain issues, but I understand that even moving data from/between supposedly similar or compatible PDAs is not straight forward.
Aaahh! Maybe Mac users are just spoiled silly, hey.

Everybody keeps talking about what the thing is and what should be, but this is not the reason i started this topic for. So i must repeat myself. Who can fix bluetooth problems? Microsoft. Who can fix radio problems? Microsoft. Who can fix performance problems? Microsoft. Who can fix basic applications problems? Microsoft. Who can fix data sync problems? Microsoft. So we totally depend on Microsoft and she can take all the time she wants.

New HTC Product ....

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/03/27/htc_unveils_windows_vista_shift/

another link with a pic ...
http://www.america.htc.com/products/shift/default.html

They've been out for a while now, other names are T-Mobile Ameo/HTC Athena/HTC Advantage/Dopod U1000. They're selling like hotcakes on ebay and I couldn't resist, so I ordered 3

It's a LOT better than an Athena ST
I am hooked...

SpyderTracks said:
They've been out for a while now, other names are T-Mobile Ameo/HTC Athena/HTC Advantage/Dopod U1000. They're selling like hotcakes on ebay and I couldn't resist, so I ordered 3
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope its different to the Athena, its 19cm long, so a bit big for even the biggest pocket.

the shift looks awesome!
i want to see some spec though. i wonder how you hold it to your face
when you';re ,making a call.. since it's the size of two stacked dvd cases.
imagine it was smaller than the universal.. with all the same features.
i'd crap in every pair of pants i had.

SpyderTracks said:
They've been out for a while now, other names are T-Mobile Ameo/HTC Athena/HTC Advantage/Dopod U1000. They're selling like hotcakes on ebay and I couldn't resist, so I ordered 3
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Athena is the replacement for the Universal, i.e. it uses Windows Mobile.
This one uses Windows Vista!!!
What a dream-machine...
Would be interesting to know:
a) price
b) how long the battery lasts
Cheers,
vma

Yet again, I didn't read the thread properly... apologies! Man that's a bit of hardware!!!

Hi Guys
Been reading various threads on your wonderful site now for a few months, finaly got around to registering. Just wanted to say "wow" with regard to the HTC "Shift". I know what I want for Chistmas.
In the meantime, got myself an Ameo last week - so far so good, although only managing to get about 24hrs battery life on light usage! Stil, the HSDPA rocks, providing you can slap t-mob into giving it to you for free as their t+c's stink!
Cheers

IMO, it will be running 2 OSes, namely, WM and Vista(yep, a dual boot device). Its specs says that it has 64MB RAM(probably for WM)+1GB RAM(for Vista).
Also, it has 128MB ROM(again, probably for WM)+30GB(for vista)

kdskamal said:
IMO, it will be running 2 OSes, namely, WM and Vista(yep, a dual boot device). Its specs says that it has 64MB RAM(probably for WM)+1GB RAM(for Vista).
Also, it has 128MB ROM(again, probably for WM)+30GB(for vista)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
dual boot wouldn't be practical.
i'm sure the wmobile aspect is integrated. hopefully you can use a mouse with it, if it's as powerful as a computer at that size this thing's amazing.
and... PUNJABI!!!!

dutchschultz said:
dual boot wouldn't be practical.
i'm sure the wmobile aspect is integrated. hopefully you can use a mouse with it, if it's as powerful as a computer at that size this thing's amazing.
and... PUNJABI!!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, thats what the specs says ATM. AFA using mouse with it is concerned, you can use a BT mouse with any PPC with BT radio.
And, 'PUNJABI' for what dude?

with a name like kamaldeep singh
i figured you were punjabi.
i am too. PUNJABI! say it loud say it proud!