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Everytime I read mobile.engadget or any gadget site for that matter, I see posts "dogging" the Android operating system about how they are fragmented and certain apps/games won't work for older OS's/devices. Our EVOs have been out for almost 6 months now and this phone is still rock solid IMO but I wonder how fragmented (if at all) this OS is and what that means for this phone and future android devices. I'm literally asking cause I have no idea. And also what the heck is fragmented actually mean, cause all I get out of this is that the older Android devices just can't run the app or game because of the older/slower specs not necessarily because of the OS.
It would help if you posted the link. When you say fragmented, I would guess that this means that Android Users are divided between those that can run an application on said device and those that can't.
This is not any different that using M$ OS's as well. Not all applications will run on older Operating Systems. This is partly due to Hardware upgrades and partly due to marketing. If all software were reverse compatible then people would be less likely to upgrade their devices. Also the list of Drivers would get longer and longer as the Android Developers add phones to their database.
Apple only has what, 4 phones and 2 or 3 Ipod Touch's? And realistically most of the people that own these would have the 3rd or 4th Gen. Phone anyways. I think the "fragmentation" problem will exist on no matter what platform OS you are using, its just that Android is on sooooo many devices now ranging from Phones/TV and now its going into cars. It wouldn't surprise me to see it on X-box since they like to run Linux code.
So yeah.... Long story short its due to all of the different devices and the fact that no one keeps electronics for any length of time but IMHO Android will start to get a lot more life out of their electronics since the software is upgradeable like on a PC.
I wouldn't worry too much about it. We saw the same thing in the computer desktop arena. At one point you had Windows 3.0, 3.1, 3.11, Win95, WinNT, and Win98 all running around at the same time. Going back even further all the different flavors of DOS. The PC industry survived so will Android. Eventually you will have to upgrade so fragmentation is pretty much a moot point. IMHO
My guess would be because there are phones running multiple versions of the OS such as 1.6/2.1/2.2. Some apps such as task killers will work on 1.6 and 2.1 but not 2.2+. Game compatibility seems more reliant on what that particular phone is capable of. Our phones can handle just about any game available whereas a G1 or MT3G is far more limited.
Sent from my HTC SUPERSONIC
Fragmentation refers to the fact that there are so many different versions of android the app developers have to code for. With the Iphone for example most everyone is at version 4.1 or 4.2. Android devices are being released with 1.5, 1.6, 2.1, 2.2 and soon 2.3. It makes it extremely hard to code and optimize apps across all versions. I foresee this has having no negative effects on our beloved EVO's for though.
People like to point out the fact that there are multiple android devices, and not all of them are on the newest os (like some of the sgs phones not having froyo, or the moment, or hero for example). unlike the iphone, where there is only one device of each generation, and when the update is released, everyone can get it.
My take on this is I like variety, just because I like my Evo doesn't mean it suits everyone. Just like there are a ton of people that consider a hardware keyboard a must have, yet I would rather not have one. Having to wait for HTC and Sprint to release the newest version to my phone, or wait for one of the amazing developers contributing their hard work and skill to port it for use is just fine with me. Would it be nice to get it the moment google pushes it out, probably, however I can almost bet that the Nexus line will always get first crack anyway. This is just my two cents, I hope the explanation helps.
Sent from my HTC SuperSonic 4G using the XDA app.
Brutal-Force said:
It would help if you posted the link. When you say fragmented, I would guess that this means that Android Users are divided between those that can run an application on said device and those that can't.
This is not any different that using M$ OS's as well. Not all applications will run on older Operating Systems. This is partly due to Hardware upgrades and partly due to marketing. If all software were reverse compatible then people would be less likely to upgrade their devices. Also the list of Drivers would get longer and longer as the Android Developers add phones to their database.
Apple only has what, 4 phones and 2 or 3 Ipod Touch's? And realistically most of the people that own these would have the 3rd or 4th Gen. Phone anyways. I think the "fragmentation" problem will exist on no matter what platform OS you are using, its just that Android is on sooooo many devices now ranging from Phones/TV and now its going into cars. It wouldn't surprise me to see it on X-box since they like to run Linux code.
So yeah.... Long story short its due to all of the different devices and the fact that no one keeps electronics for any length of time but IMHO Android will start to get a lot more life out of their electronics since the software is upgradeable like on a PC.
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Click to collapse
One example of many if you google...
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/05/entelligence-will-android-fragmentation-destroy-the-platform/
Yeah I'm not smart enough to know if this would effect our phones or not, but who really knows as of right now? Why doesn't Android just do what MS did and make a standard for what the manufacturers need to build in order for it to be up to par for Android (for once MS did something right in that regard IMO). Is that what Honeycomb is suppose to accomplish, a minimal spec sheet for manufacturers?
My two cents:
I think the "fragmentation" issue is primarily software related and is the fault of the manufacturers and service providers. That said, I think the most important issue is whether the fragmentation discourages developers from creating apps for Android.
As hardware and software advances there will always be features that will work on some phones and not work on others. This occurs with the iPhone too and is no surprise, however, Apple still rolls out new OS's to all phones so that the vast majority of users are on the same platform.
While Google has been releasing two versions of Android per year, it is the manufacturers and service providers who decide whether or not to roll out the updates and that seems to be a crapshoot. Since the manufacturers are not just tolling out vanilla Android, instead choosing to overlay their own UI on top (e.g. Touchwiz or Sense UI), this would require effort on their part to rework their UI to keep up with Android updates. And, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't... So, even though you have hardware in circulation perfectly capable of running newer versions of Android they don't because the manufacturers don't allow it.
I think most people would agree the number of quality apps in the iTunes store far exceeds the number of quality apps in the Android Market. However, Android has been outselling the iPhone for almost a year now. The question is: Is it the "fragmentation" keeping developers from porting their apps to Android? Or, is it something else? If it IS the fragmentation then I AM worried. I think 2011 is an important year for Android and I remain optimistic the Apps will come. It'll be interesting if they don't...
To Be Continued...
the evil fragmentation comes from low-end android phones also some developers not properly coding
Beejis said:
One example of many if you google...
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/05/entelligence-will-android-fragmentation-destroy-the-platform/
Yeah I'm not smart enough to know if this would effect our phones or not, but who really knows as of right now? Why doesn't Android just do what MS did and make a standard for what the manufacturers need to build in order for it to be up to par for Android (for once MS did something right in that regard IMO). Is that what Honeycomb is suppose to accomplish, a minimal spec sheet for manufacturers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
simple to answer i think, here's the thing, not every phone is going to be the same, just like not every carrier is the same, what i mean is that each manufacturer is going to have their own set of hardware and specs to follow, thus giving them an option to best choose the Android version that best suits the phone they are building.
Engadget is a huge iEverything fan, so they will help bash android and google just as much as Mr. duschbag, sorry i meant Job's, but you get the point, after all it was Jobs that first coined the whole android is fragmented war, however someone correct me if i'm wrong.
Besides if manufacturer were to listen to android about having a set standard then we might as well also be referred to as Apple, but since we're not under the dictatorship of Stevie, we don't have to worry about that.
Android fragmentation deals with both software and hardware.
Software-wise you have different phones having different Android versions -- OEMs seem to only support their phones for a year, sometimes even less, and sometimes not at all after it's release. You already see this problem with 1.6 vs 2.0 vs 2.1 vs 2.2; and as soon as Gingerbread appears you'll be seeing a sudden split between Android version share. This causes problems for developers because each Android version supports varying API levels, so some phones are inevitably left behind by developers.
Hardware-wise you have a lot of phones that are very different. You can have two phones of the same Android version and you'll still see app incompatibilities. Different CPUs, GPUs, cameras, etc., causes developers to work extra hard to make them all work; this sometimes leads them to drop support for some either because of the extra work it would take or because the hardware is just two low end. This is especially true with games and a reason why I think iOS/WP7 will be the leading mobile gaming platforms in a couple of years.
A lot of people think that Android Market will suddenly become the best once Android's market share inevitably over runs iOS; and I personally think it wont because of fragmentation. I don't think people understand just how expensive it is to develop and design an app that is of the top ~10% iOS quality -- it's in the 100's of thousands. Supporting Android is just that much more difficult for developers. Then there's the fact that a lot of the increasing market share is coming from low end phones which: 1) will probably suffer the worse from the fragmentation problem (incompatibilities with apps), and 2) would most likely not even invest into many paid apps anyway.
Beejis said:
One example of many if you google...
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/05/entelligence-will-android-fragmentation-destroy-the-platform/
Yeah I'm not smart enough to know if this would effect our phones or not, but who really knows as of right now? Why doesn't Android just do what MS did and make a standard for what the manufacturers need to build in order for it to be up to par for Android (for once MS did something right in that regard IMO). Is that what Honeycomb is suppose to accomplish, a minimal spec sheet for manufacturers?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Intel did it, M$ did it, AMD did it, Nvidia did it and Apple is doing it now. The reason we use Android is so that Corporations don't MAKE us do it. Also, companies like M$, Intel and Nvidia have been pulled into court for things like this. In the end, they "open" back up, because thats what people want.
Brutal-Force said:
Intel did it, M$ did it, AMD did it, Nvidia did it and Apple is doing it now. The reason we use Android is so that Corporations don't MAKE us do it. Also, companies like M$, Intel and Nvidia have been pulled into court for things like this. In the end, they "open" back up, because thats what people want.
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Click to collapse
People want open? Really? People just want good phones.
Best example....
Most people upgrade their phones every two years. So it won't really matter so long in those two years we get at least one upgrade.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
novanosis85 said:
Best example....
Most people upgrade their phones every two years. So it won't really matter so long in those two years we get at least one upgrade.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So you'd be okay rocking a 1.6 phone right now and for maybe another year?
This may have been an issue a year ago but if you check this link:
http://developer.android.com/resources/dashboard/platform-versions.html
you can see that 77% of android devices are 2.1 and 2.2. Newer versions of the OS will hopefully decouple software updates from the actual service carrier and phone manufacturer, increasing this percentage even further.
Google makes available many guides for deploying your application and being able to support across all versions. Also, the sdk easily allows you to target the newest version and features while still maintaining portability to older OS versions.
Basically, unless you are developing some crazy cutting edge application then 'fragmentation' is not an issue, hardware or software. Using that as a dividing factor with regards to gauging the success of the operating system is by now a stretch from the truth.
elegantai said:
This may have been an issue a year ago but if you check this link:
http://developer.android.com/resources/dashboard/platform-versions.html
you can see that 77% of android devices are 2.1 and 2.2. Newer versions of the OS will hopefully decouple software updates from the actual service carrier and phone manufacturer, increasing this percentage even further.
Google makes available many guides for deploying your application and being able to support across all versions. Also, the sdk easily allows you to target the newest version and features while still maintaining portability to older OS versions.
Basically, unless you are developing some crazy cutting edge application then 'fragmentation' is not an issue, hardware or software. Using that as a dividing factor with regards to gauging the success of the operating system is by now a stretch from the truth.
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Click to collapse
I'd argue that the large share of 2.1/2.2 devices is due to the fact that Android has finally gotten popular and sales of current devices has really picked up. So a majority of phones are currently newer 2.x devices. Lets see how this is once 2.3 is released and OEMs fail to keep them up to date just as how it has been in the past.
That is one possibility, but if you look at the bottom of that page there is a stacked line graph representing the historical distribution over the past 6 months.
If you look at version 2.1 and compare its slope to 1.5/1.6 you can see that the older versions follow the same slope as the 2.1 slope, meaning that 2.1 phones were actually replacing physical phones running 1.5 and 1.6.
If you look at when 2.2 takes a steep upward slope you will not notice the same pattern of 2.1 and older following the slope of 2.2, which tells me that more people upgraded from 2.1 to 2.2.
So if this pattern holds, then hopefully it means phone manufactures are starting to realize the importance of providing newer operating systems for their devices. But as you said, we will see!
It's fragmented, but people wouldn't care if all the apps worked across all versions. That's really the only problem.
The average person does not care how many mflops their device scores in linpack or what their quadrant score is, they just want to play Angry Birds, and their phone they bought last year can't, and they aren't able to upgrade yet.
clamknuckle said:
The average person does not care how many mflops their device scores in linpack or what their quadrant score is, they just want to play Angry Birds, and their phone they bought last year can't, and they aren't able to upgrade yet.
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Click to collapse
This.
10char.
I remember a while back when Google said that they were going to keep Android OS fragmentation at a minimum or I think it was not at all...
Yet along comes honeycomb a version of Android built specifically for tablets.
-Sigh-
What are your thoughts?
It's going to be very tricky to have tablets and phone with the same processing power, let alone have people wanting the same things from both.
I don't think it fragmentation at all, just a version built for tablets. I wouldn't want that on a phone <5".
I would like to see a source for that too because the whole point of the OS is for the carrier/manufacture to customize it. They are the ones that need to update faster.
fragmentation is heavy on android platform, let it be because of freedom of customization, lack of support from phone builder for updates, etc. No need to quote source, just read on it, there's plenty of info on that.
Well he said Google says but didn't give a source for it.
I know there are multiple versions out that are lower than AOSP, it's a fact. There are also features left out of recent iOS versions that are not available on older versions but because they have the same v# people don't seem to complain about it.
But there is ZERO reason to blame Google for not updating blur/touchwiz/sense when it is the Manufactures obligation to update the software with their skin.
Honeycomb has nothing to do with phones though. The OS is made specifically for tablets. Its like windows ce. Yea, its called windows, but because it only runs on smaller devices doesn't make windows fragmented. Same thing applies here. Honeycomb is specifically made for tablets.
The windows ce example is a bad one. Have u used a wall windows ce device (not windows mobile - ce/embedded edition windows)?
In any case as long as APIs are kept consistent there should not be any big problems.
The fragmentation is only problematic because of the way devices are supported, tbh...
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
For those of you who don't know about these new head units. It is the first headunit that is running an Android based operating system that is compatible with MirrorLink.
I can't post a link but if you google "mobile electronics magizine xav-601bt" you can find a lot of info on it.
I am curious what people are going to do with these once it is rooted, just think of the possibilities!
What are the chances we can get MirrorLink to work on all android based devices? So far it looks to only be planned for new phones but I am sure that we could change that.
Nobody else thinks this is amazing? You now can install an android based computer/audio/video in your car that you can mirror your phone's interface on!! Literally your car can now do everything your phone does, something people have wanted to do years.
I'm doing some research on the XAV-601BT right now. Saw you posted some info on another car audio site and I would like to know what you think of the unit. Such as: what apps would currently integrate an xperia pro freshly updated to android 4.** and are there any known issues with particular devices or configurations? Any mod sites messing around with getting rid of the bugs yet, safety nannies or performance wise? I can't find much besides chatter yet.
You mentioned that you had access to a unit and if it is installed could you give some details of what it is pushing and how it is performing?
Thanks allot. I am holding out for another unit that has been delayed again but this might make me pull the trigger. And yes, the prospect of running all my phone apps via my head unit makes me happy, let alone being able to root and customize.
MOJoWales
MOJoWales said:
I'm doing some research on the XAV-601BT right now. Saw you posted some info on another car audio site and I would like to know what you think of the unit. Such as: what apps would currently integrate an xperia pro freshly updated to android 4.** and are there any known issues with particular devices or configurations? Any mod sites messing around with getting rid of the bugs yet, safety nannies or performance wise? I can't find much besides chatter yet.
You mentioned that you had access to a unit and if it is installed could you give some details of what it is pushing and how it is performing?
Thanks allot. I am holding out for another unit that has been delayed again but this might make me pull the trigger. And yes, the prospect of running all my phone apps via my head unit makes me happy, let alone being able to root and customize.
MOJoWales
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you don't have the right phone for it.. only Nokia and the new Samsung Galaxy S3 support Mirror Link.
I've read somewhere that Mirror Link is hardware based, but maybe it's the same technology as MHL.
Thanks for the reply. I read that the 2012 Xperias would be MirrorLink capable too. I came across conflicting information on it being implementable for smartphones that had output capabilities of uUSB and HDMI like my Xperia pro. If a phone can support RealVNP I think it should work but I'm just learning about this technology. I've got some research to do on this before I pull the trigger because I want/need qwerty with my hand size and I don't see anything similar to the pro in the pipeline that would come factory capable with MirrorLink.
Anybody know for sure what it would take to run MirrorLink on a phone like the 2011 Xperia pro?
Xof_ said:
I think you don't have the right phone for it.. only Nokia and the new Samsung Galaxy S3 support Mirror Link.
I've read somewhere that Mirror Link is hardware based, but maybe it's the same technology as MHL.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He is right about the S3 and nokia phones being the first supported. Windows phones and other phones are expected in the future but there is little information available. I originally heard that mirrorlink was a hardware solution but now I believe it is software. There is a good chance that it could be ported but it is going to be hard to tell until the S3 launches and some people on here start playing with it. I also hope they make an area for the XAV-601BT and XAV-701HD on this site so people can start focusing on rooting the unit as it is Android bassed.
I have used the unit and even without the mirrorlink it is an amazing unit. It literally does everything I could want in a double din head unit.
I currently have the xav-601bt i picked up from my audio shop yesterday. I also have a htc sense and the unit will only display unsuported device. Speaking with the sony west coast rep today, I was informed that there will be rollouts for the mirror link. It seems that it will be an app you can download from the play store.
The rollouts are expected to be every 60 days, but as for what phones are capable of running the mirror link protocol remains a mystery.
I offered my phone to be tested for there software but he will have to check with his higher ups about that. I am hoping that it will soon be available for download and one of the developers that crack it to work with other phones, like the netflix and hulu apps.
I am still waiting on information from the east coast rep on this as well. If I get anymore information I'll be sure to post it here.
Could you post some experiences with this unit? Do you think it's fast enough? How about the touchscreen; how well does it react to your finger and what about the sun.
There is a russian video on youtube giving a demo of this device.. not much to understand (at least for me) but at least you can see the features a little bit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGMxaMnfTFo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB9V641jTZQ
As you can see in the video, it's not as smooth as I hoped for.. sometimes you have to touch something two or three times before it works.
Xof_ said:
Could you post some experiences with this unit? Do you think it's fast enough? How about the touchscreen; how well does it react to your finger and what about the sun.
There is a russian video on youtube giving a demo of this device.. not much to understand (at least for me) but at least you can see the features a little bit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGMxaMnfTFo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB9V641jTZQ
As you can see in the video, it's not as smooth as I hoped for.. sometimes you have to touch something two or three times before it works.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have this unit as well and have had it since late May. It is actually pretty responsive(for a touchscreen head unit) and boots up fast. I am coming from a x930BT which was horrible in both of these areas. The having to press more than once is more related to how accurate you need to be to hit what the unit considers the button. It is small area that accepts the input for that button, hopefully they address this in a FW update.
As for the Sun question - pretty bad, but my car has a bad location for the radio that doesn't help the problem any. The sun beats directly on the screen and it is completely washed out.
Thanks tvrvic for the reply
Hmm the sun problem is not a good thing, a lot of units have problems with that and I hoped that a big company as Sony wouldn't have this problem.
I've had this unit for a few days so far and love it. I'm order the steering wheel control adapter today. It has a matte finish on the screen and that helps the glare, I can see the screen just fine.
.
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walkeryan said:
I've had this unit for a few days so far and love it. I'm order the steering wheel control adapter today. It has a matte finish on the screen and that helps the glare, I can see the screen just fine.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks, I also just saw this link: http://forums.mcx7.com/showthread.php/132693-Double-Din-Sony-XAV-601BT-Install-pics! with a photo of the unit in the sun and it looks good
Now we just need to root it
Hi Guys just asking for a bit of an update - im in the uk so the bigger 701hd isnt out yet, i was looking at the Alpine ICS x-8 which also supports mirror link - there is a demo out on youtube which shows it working with the Galaxy S2! Do you guys think this would work with the S3?
nubz69 said:
Now we just need to root it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This head unit does not actually run Android, so there's nothing to root. It uses MirrorLink to mirror your phone's display on the head unit. You'll have to wait a few months for Clarion's double din Android head unit to release to have Android running natively on your head unit. There are some cheap no-name head units out there right now running Android, but they're poor quality and I don't think any of them are even running Gingerbread.
thanks for that info.
so the sony won't be hackable. given that, is mirrorlink's app approval mechanism hackable on the android end? does anyone know mirrorlink tech beyond:
Universal Plug and Play (UPnP™) is used for controlled access to applications. Virtual Network Computing (VNC™) is used to replicate the phone's display on the navigation screen and communicate user inputs back to the phone. Besides Bluetooth™, audio can also be streamed using the Real-Time Protocol (RTP).
MirrorLink™ also provides a mechanism that ensures only approved applications are accessible while driving.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
(from terminalmode<dot>org<slash>technology<dot>html)
thanks,
shiraz
ydoucare said:
This head unit does not actually run Android, so there's nothing to root. It uses MirrorLink to mirror your phone's display on the head unit. You'll have to wait a few months for Clarion's double din Android head unit to release to have Android running natively on your head unit. There are some cheap no-name head units out there right now running Android, but they're poor quality and I don't think any of them are even running Gingerbread.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I just installed this unit in my car - the Open source license page on the unit shows a lot of .apk files and also reference AOSP, and Linux 2.6.x licenses - so it is Linux
The mirror link support looks like it comes from tmlibs.so - which they published on their support site (Trying to find the links - I downloaded what they published for opensource -
the libraries they put on their site were: (Repeating tar.bz2 was their names)
EDIT: the url for the sony site is : http://www.sony.net/Products/Linux/Audio/XAV-701BT.html
GPL_SGX_KM_20111130.tar.bz2.tar.bz2.tar.bz2
alsa-lib.tar.gz
dnsmasq.tar.gz
iproute2.tar.gz
iptables.tar.gz
webkit.tar.gz
kernel.tar.gz
and the most interesting
ML_Necessitas_Build.tar.bz2.tar.bz2.tar.bz2
TmLibs.tar.bz2.tar.bz2.tar.bz2
The TmLibs looks like it has a mirrorlink server and client embeded, using the QT libraries in the ML_Necessitas, and there is an ortpLib directory in there as well.
Would it be possible they are running some android apks within the system as the USB music app seems very androidish (menus & icons) while the ipod app not so much?
http://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/car/mirrorlink/compatibility/kw-nsx1.html
Support for the Samsung GALAXY S III is planned. Car Mode compatibility will differ by country or region.
Support for Europe was going to be available on July 20 2012.
But, Support for Europe will be delayed to August 31 2012, because of software development has been delayed.
And timing for US/Canada is TBA. Support for Asia/Middle East is TBA.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So MirrorLink with the JVC will work at the end of August, so I guess that will also mean Sony will support it by that date.
Is there such a thing as an Android head unit that ships with open source firmware such as Cyanogen?
On one hand, I really want an Android head unit just for the Google Maps.
On the other hand. given the number of critical privilege escalation exploits and in some case remote code execution exploits that are being published and fixed on a monthly basis, using an Android device that is not fully patched yet is plugged straight into the vehicle's CAN bus sounds like as ill advised an idea as it can possibly get.
So - is there such a thing as a Cyanogen (or similar) based Android firmware for an Android head unit?
I think it's more an issue of these units coming with Rockchip CPUs and a community to build the radio/DVD/CD apps lacking.
Would gladly pay £50 more for a Snapdragon 625 (14 mm processor) version of these head units
Arguably, the existing apps can be extracted from the stock ROM.
I don't see what the performance and efficiency of the SoC has to do with anything.
My concern is purely around the timely security patches. Using an unpatched phone is bad enough. Using an unpatched device plugged into the car's CAN bus is borderline suicidally stupid.
I was referring more to use of Snapdragon processors as they are open source drivers so ROMs can be developed for them and added my personal preference after.
shatteredsilicon said:
Is there such a thing as an Android head unit that ships with open source firmware such as Cyanogen?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ha ha ha, not from these dodgy Chinese manufacturers!
shatteredsilicon said:
plugged straight into the vehicle's CAN bus sounds like as ill advised an idea as it can possibly get.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You don't have to connect the CAN bus, I haven't in my car.
shatteredsilicon said:
So - is there such a thing as a Cyanogen (or similar) based Android firmware for an Android head unit?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I believe someone is working on a port for one of the Newsmy units, not sure where it's at but I can tell you that because of the RK3188 chip they've had to keep the old 3.0 kernel that it came with.
The binary blobs supplied for some parts make using other kernels too difficult.
kobirulali said:
I was referring more to use of Snapdragon processors as they are open source drivers so ROMs can be developed for them and added my personal preference after.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So every last one of the currently available Android based head units is based on a closed source GPL violating SoC?
leonkernan said:
You don't have to connect the CAN bus, I haven't in my car.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What functionality is lost by not doing so? And given how the head unit is usually quite important to the functioning of the CAN bus, how many other things will stop working or result in various errors to permanently come up on the dashboard?
leonkernan said:
I believe someone is working on a port for one of the Newsmy units, not sure where it's at but I can tell you that because of the RK3188 chip they've had to keep the old 3.0 kernel that it came with.
The binary blobs supplied for some parts make using other kernels too difficult.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There are enough critical CVEs against the Linux kernel on a regular enough basis (including the recent CVE-2016-5195) that not having the kernel source available is bad enough to make any device that doesn't either have full sources available or a cast iron commitment from the manufacturer to release monthly Android security updates completely unviable.
I guess that means that until there is a Cyanogen supported head unit I won't be getting one...
shatteredsilicon said:
So every last one of the currently available Android based head units is based on a closed source GPL violating SoC?
What functionality is lost by not doing so? And given how the head unit is usually quite important to the functioning of the CAN bus, how many other things will stop working or result in various errors to permanently come up on the dashboard?
There are enough critical CVEs against the Linux kernel on a regular enough basis (including the recent CVE-2016-5195) that not having the kernel source available is bad enough to make any device that doesn't either have full sources available or a cast iron commitment from the manufacturer to release monthly Android security updates completely unviable.
I guess that means that until there is a Cyanogen supported head unit I won't be getting one...
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Or build your own. http://forum.xda-developers.com/android-auto/android-head-units/diy-2din-project-t3469332
shatteredsilicon said:
What functionality is lost by not doing so? And given how the head unit is usually quite important to the functioning of the CAN bus, how many other things will stop working or result in various errors to permanently come up on the dashboard?
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In my Toyota, none. As for other models, I can't say as I haven't tried it.
shatteredsilicon said:
Is there such a thing as an Android head unit that ships with open source firmware such as Cyanogen?
On one hand, I really want an Android head unit just for the Google Maps.
On the other hand. given the number of critical privilege escalation exploits and in some case remote code execution exploits that are being published and fixed on a monthly basis, using an Android device that is not fully patched yet is plugged straight into the vehicle's CAN bus sounds like as ill advised an idea as it can possibly get.
So - is there such a thing as a Cyanogen (or similar) based Android firmware for an Android head unit?
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Nothing currently.
I anticipate that the new intel units will be a bit easier to deal with.
The major stumbling block will be in adapting the car-specific functionality of the MCU board.
shatteredsilicon said:
So every last one of the currently available Android based head units is based on a closed source GPL violating SoC?
What functionality is lost by not doing so? And given how the head unit is usually quite important to the functioning of the CAN bus, how many other things will stop working or result in various errors to permanently come up on the dashboard?
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Click to collapse
I don't know of a single car that requires an OBD plugin to the head unit I don't know where you got that idea from but I think you received some bad info
This may be the case on some of the newest cars but otherwise no it is not needed at all
I'm pretty sure OBD and CAN are two completely unrelated things.
Examples of functionality that would almost certainly be lost without a CAN connection include things like trip computer information, time configuration (shows up on the dashboard but is only configurable via the head unit), and other similar things.
wingzero186 said:
I don't know of a single car that requires an OBD plugin to the head unit I don't know where you got that idea from but I think you received some bad info
This may be the case on some of the newest cars but otherwise no it is not needed at all
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shatteredsilicon said:
I'm pretty sure OBD and CAN are two completely unrelated things.
Examples of functionality that would almost certainly be lost without a CAN connection include things like trip computer information, time configuration (shows up on the dashboard but is only configurable via the head unit), and other similar things.
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OBD and CAN are definitely different, but can be somewhat related and intertwined. as most ODB ports also provide CAN access. As more and more of the functions and information are integrated into the "radio screen" (at that point they aren't really Radio's anymore, but entertainment centers and/or Multi-Information-Displays, etc.), then it will be tougher to use 'generic' devices. And to think we are trusting the coders working on these boxes to properly handle CAN messages?
If you really want to scare yourself, do some googling on various CAN and vehicle system exploits/hacks. Then remember that you are putting a rooted android device directly on that bus.
Zaphod-Beeblebrox said:
Then remember that you are putting a rooted android device directly on that bus.
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I really don't understand the obsession with rooting Android devices. It seems like a particularly pointless way of de-securing the device for negligible benefit. I guess it appeals to the sort of people that drive a car without wearing a seatbelt or ride a motorbike without wearing a helmet, but that doesn't make it clever.
shatteredsilicon said:
I really don't understand the obsession with rooting Android devices. It seems like a particularly pointless way of de-securing the device for negligible benefit. I guess it appeals to the sort of people that drive a car without wearing a seatbelt or ride a motorbike without wearing a helmet, but that doesn't make it clever.
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Wow.... your life must not be so great.... no fun AND you don't even understand why people Root?
LOL.
shatteredsilicon said:
Arguably, the existing apps can be extracted from the stock ROM.
I don't see what the performance and efficiency of the SoC has to do with anything.
My concern is purely around the timely security patches. Using an unpatched phone is bad enough. Using an unpatched device plugged into the car's CAN bus is borderline suicidally stupid.
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I think the number of these head units (Chinese/Generic) that are plugged into the CAN bus is quite minimal. There may be a subset of users who have it, but most are simply connected to the 12+V, common ground, the AM/FM antenna, the speakers and/or an amp.. There may be some sense wires for reverse gear, illumination, etc, but they don't transmit anything and do not control anything outside the head unit That's the typcal level of in-car integration (aside from those who might also be adding a bluetooth OBD dongle...but that's another issue.)
The concern over potential security issues that the OP raised, however, are legitimate. Because the vast majority of these head units have Wifi enabled, which is easily exploitable, especially when well-know exploits have not been patched. And very few (if any) will ever receive an update from the OEM who created the original ROM.
To be fully transparent, this is a common security issue that affects ALL Android devices that are not regularly updated when Google patches the code base. So I think using a lower-tier cell phone would be lot more of a concern (if I were using one), simply because of the potential loss of personal data if it were remotely hacked because of a known Android exploit. That's exactly what I would be worried about if I were inputting any personal data to a head unit that could be accessed remotely.
If you keep that potential problem in mind, I think the security on one is no worse than using a second or third tier Android phone that does not get any updates. I would be especially careful about using a "real" Google account when downloading anything or browsing the web through one of these things.
Just my $0.2
tbd2k2 said:
I think the number of these head units (Chinese/Generic) that are plugged into the CAN bus is quite minimal. There may be a subset of users who have it, but most are simply connected to the 12+V, common ground, the AM/FM antenna, the speakers and/or an amp.. There may be some sense wires for reverse gear, illumination, etc, but they don't transmit anything and do not control anything outside the head unit That's the typcal level of in-car integration (aside from those who might also be adding a bluetooth OBD dongle...but that's another issue.)
The concern over potential security issues that the OP raised, however, are legitimate. Because the vast majority of these head units have Wifi enabled, which is easily exploitable, especially when well-know exploits have not been patched. And very few (if any) will ever receive an update from the OEM who created the original ROM.
To be fully transparent, this is a common security issue that affects ALL Android devices that are not regularly updated when Google patches the code base. So I think using a lower-tier cell phone would be lot more of a concern (if I were using one), simply because of the potential loss of personal data if it were remotely hacked because of a known Android exploit. That's exactly what I would be worried about if I were inputting any personal data to a head unit that could be accessed remotely.
If you keep that potential problem in mind, I think the security on one is no worse than using a second or third tier Android phone that does not get any updates. I would be especially careful about using a "real" Google account when downloading anything or browsing the web through one of these things.
Just my $0.2
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I agree with all of your sentiments here except the minimizing of the numbers plugged into canbus. I think you underestimate those. All of these devices that are 'model specific' (ie, trim panels fit a specific model) and support SWC are plugged into the CAN bus. Most of these devices are getting their SWC from CAN. They also display things like AC controls, Door openings, push RDS through Multi-Info-Displays in the gauge cluster, etc.
I think being connect to CAN, plus all the things you mentioned above, should give people some concern.
I'm still waiting for the first example of Ransomware that threatens to take your brakes out if you don't pay. May seem a little far fetched, but if you do any serious looking at CAN exploits, these things are possible.
Yes, you are probably correct on the numbers connected to CANBUS. I don't have that in my car, it's older, so I was over generalizing.
Newer models of cars have it and those selling manufacturer-specific head units often advtertise that they can accept CANBUS data. So, the newer the car and the more model-specific the unit, the more likely the CANBUS connection.
Not sure about the ransomware threat in a head unit though. It's possible,I suppose. But if a car head unit maker deliberately allowed that or if it was commonly known that a certain vendor had that problem, I think their sales would drop to zero rather quickly.
You would be surprised. My best friend works on automotive embedded electronics, and the industry has changed massively in the past 10 years, in terms of exactly these kinds of devices. A decade ago nobody even remotely considered the aspects of security isolation between different systems on various buses. Today it's the biggest focus of the design and development. Bottom line, you _really_ don't want to attach an unpatched Android devices to the CAN bus of even the newest cars that are still getting firmware updates and were designed with CAN security in mind, let alone a 10 year old car that was designed at a time when CAN bus security wasn't even a consideration.
There have been several demonstrations recently of CAN hacks over various means that can seriously affect critical systems like engine and brakes.
shatteredsilicon said:
I really don't understand the obsession with rooting Android devices. It seems like a particularly pointless way of de-securing the device for negligible benefit. I guess it appeals to the sort of people that drive a car without wearing a seatbelt or ride a motorbike without wearing a helmet, but that doesn't make it clever.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First off, root does NOT mean you are losing ANY degree of security.
However, the implementation of accessing that root CAN be dangerous, for instance, SuperSU is a NOT SECURE. SuperSU hands your device's most intimate controls over to a black box corporation with unknown motivations and no public face. THAT is scary.
Root access can actually IMPROVE security, because it allows you the access needed in order to AUDIT the device's security. This is something you don't have without root access.
The first rule of root is that you should ONLY use OPEN SOURCE software to manage it (i.e. https://github.com/seSuperUser). This is because being open source means that you (or somebody you trust) can audit the code directly, and understand EXACTLY what it is doing.
As for the benefit, the fact that you are unable to comprehend what you can really do with root access doesn't mean that the benefits are "negligible". You're thinking along a very shallow line, such as changing the system UI to use predominantly PINK coloring scheme. This is not a benefit of root, this is just silly. I'm not going to go into what you can do with root, because the reality is that the only limit is YOUR IMAGINATION.
shatteredsilicon said:
Is there such a thing as an Android head unit that ships with open source firmware such as Cyanogen?
On one hand, I really want an Android head unit just for the Google Maps.
On the other hand. given the number of critical privilege escalation exploits and in some case remote code execution exploits that are being published and fixed on a monthly basis, using an Android device that is not fully patched yet is plugged straight into the vehicle's CAN bus sounds like as ill advised an idea as it can possibly get.
So - is there such a thing as a Cyanogen (or similar) based Android firmware for an Android head unit?
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Click to collapse
Getting back to the original question, there is one "Chinese android head unit" where there has been some CM development work going on.
It's the NEWSMY carpad. Here is a link to the thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/and...-units/newsmy-carpad-nu3001-cm13-rom-t3469306
I doubt I'm alone in the US in wanting HD Radio (NRSC-5) support on our Android Head Units. I did a little looking as to what would be required to get this running. There is effectively no ready-made solution that is compatible with our Android Head Units.
Over at GitHub, there's a project which you can build on Linux (or Windows under MinGW). When paired with a USB SDR (the cheap ones based on the RTL2832U chipset), this will correctly decode and play the HD radio stream at the specified frequency. Here's the link: https://github.com/theori-io/nrsc5
I think all we'd need to get this working for Android is:
1) Being able to build the binary and libraries for the Android platform.
2) A simple UI. All it would need to do at a minimum is allow us to add station frequencies as bookmarks, and then control launching and stopping the NRSC5 binary. This wouldn't necessarily be as seamless as some would like, but it would be a great start, in my opinion.
3) Eventually, we might want to look into scanning functionalities, integration with standard FM radio (to auto-switch to HD when available), displaying title/artist data, etc.
I'm willing to kick in say $20 or so for this functionality. Perhaps enough of us could pledge some money for a functional delivered APK?
jpreston84 said:
I doubt I'm alone in the US in wanting HD Radio (NRSC-5) support on our Android Head Units. I did a little looking as to what would be required to get this running. There is effectively no ready-made solution that is compatible with our Android Head Units.
Over at GitHub, there's a project which you can build on Linux (or Windows under MinGW). When paired with a USB SDR (the cheap ones based on the RTL2832U chipset), this will correctly decode and play the HD radio stream at the specified frequency. Here's the link: https://github.com/theori-io/nrsc5
I think all we'd need to get this working for Android is:
1) Being able to build the binary and libraries for the Android platform.
2) A simple UI. All it would need to do at a minimum is allow us to add station frequencies as bookmarks, and then control launching and stopping the NRSC5 binary. This wouldn't necessarily be as seamless as some would like, but it would be a great start, in my opinion.
3) Eventually, we might want to look into scanning functionalities, integration with standard FM radio (to auto-switch to HD when available), displaying title/artist data, etc.
I'm willing to kick in say $20 or so for this functionality. Perhaps enough of us could pledge some money for a functional delivered APK?
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Click to collapse
Your best approach would be to write a broadcast radio HAL for it.
Here is one for a DMHD-1000: https://github.com/HiKey960-Car/android_device_linaro_hikey/tree/dmhd1000/broadcastradio
Note that this HAL is for Android 8.1+
If you insist on the sdr route with its inherently non-reception, you would obviously have to import the source for that into the HAL and connect it up.
Thanks for the added info.
I am not personally tied as to which way this is made to work. What I, and I think many others, would prefer to have, is a simple means to add HD Radio capability to their Android Head Units. Most common lately are the PX5 MTCD units (which is what I myself have), meaning we'd want something compatible with Android 6 (though as I understand, Oreo should be available sooner or later). If we can make this work with the built in FM radio chipset already present in these units, that's great. If using an SDR is required, that's fine too, as far as I'm concerned.
jpreston84 said:
Thanks for the added info.
I am not personally tied as to which way this is made to work. What I, and I think many others, would prefer to have, is a simple means to add HD Radio capability to their Android Head Units. Most common lately are the PX5 MTCD units (which is what I myself have), meaning we'd want something compatible with Android 6 (though as I understand, Oreo should be available sooner or later). If we can make this work with the built in FM radio chipset already present in these units, that's great. If using an SDR is required, that's fine too, as far as I'm concerned.
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Click to collapse
The built in fm radio is *not* capable of HD.
And the cheap chinese radios probably won't be too happy working with anything you try to attach to them, its the chinese way to sell you something that is broken as hell and take extraordinary measures to prevent you from fixing it yourself.
Take a peek at the project that that HAL is associated with.
I'm not sure what your particular interest in that project is, but it really is out of scope. What I'm aimed at are the many of us who have MTCD/MTCE units (in my case, of the PX5 variety, which many people have now). We already have these units, and they perform sufficiently for most of our needs. We simply would like to add HD radio capability.
We can already attach the SDR I mentioned to the head unit and use it. We simply lack the software to decode the HD signal (and no compatible hardware product seems to be available, or I'd probably buy that). The decoding software is available for Linux, which gives us at least a possibility of building this for use on Android.
jpreston84 said:
I'm not sure what your particular interest in that project is, but it really is out of scope. What I'm aimed at are the many of us who have MTCD/MTCE units (in my case, of the PX5 variety, which many people have now). We already have these units, and they perform sufficiently for most of our needs. We simply would like to add HD radio capability.
We can already attach the SDR I mentioned to the head unit and use it. We simply lack the software to decode the HD signal (and no compatible hardware product seems to be available, or I'd probably buy that). The decoding software is available for Linux, which gives us at least a possibility of building this for use on Android.
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I've had those units too, and they don't perform sufficiently for ANYTHING. They are worse than useless.
And I'm not even talking about SPEED when I say performance. They're fundamentally broken, hacked to hell and back, and not one thing works correctly on them. You can't even reliably make a phone call.
I appreciate that you don't like those units. But here's the reality -- a lot of us do. If you don't, that's fine, but it doesn't give you reason to undercut the entire basis of the project, when you don't actually have a better answer. The goal of this particular thread was to find a way to add HD Radio functionality to the MTCD/MTCE units we already own. These units integrate well with our cars (no one else offers a good face plate or buttons that look like they belong in my car). No, they're not perfect (I've replaced the ROM, and the Wifi/Bluetooth on mine, which makes the unit quite usable in my view), but they're the best option I, and many others, have available. The project you've linked isn't nearly as plug-and-play, even with the modifications I've done to my PX5 unit. Use what you like, but don't assume that everyone else must use what you like.
Additionally, the ability to use an SDR for this means you can toss one on your phone as well, which would probably be very interesting to some people.
So, back to where this started please -- is there any developer out there who would be willing to work on porting this code to an Android app? Anyone else willing to put up some money as a reward for whoever that brave developer ends up being?
jpreston84 said:
I appreciate that you don't like those units. But here's the reality -- a lot of us do. If you don't, that's fine, but it doesn't give you reason to undercut the entire basis of the project, when you don't actually have a better answer. The goal of this particular thread was to find a way to add HD Radio functionality to the MTCD/MTCE units we already own. These units integrate well with our cars (no one else offers a good face plate or buttons that look like they belong in my car). No, they're not perfect (I've replaced the ROM, and the Wifi/Bluetooth on mine, which makes the unit quite usable in my view), but they're the best option I, and many others, have available. The project you've linked isn't nearly as plug-and-play, even with the modifications I've done to my PX5 unit. Use what you like, but don't assume that everyone else must use what you like.
Additionally, the ability to use an SDR for this means you can toss one on your phone as well, which would probably be very interesting to some people.
So, back to where this started please -- is there any developer out there who would be willing to work on porting this code to an Android app? Anyone else willing to put up some money as a reward for whoever that brave developer ends up being?
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My answer is better. Fact.
And no, you won't find anyone "porting" anything like that to an "app". Won't work, because applications don't have hardware access on Android.
Your answer is literally useless to most people. But hey, if you want to tell me how to get from what you suggested to a working, fully installed unit in my car, complete with appropriately sized bezel and physical buttons, I'm ready to hear it.
On the other hand, what it seems like you're trying to do is garner support for the project you mentioned (which I assume you have some connection to). If that's your goal, you're doing a bad job of it.
If anyone else sees this and shares my interest, please PM me -- I do have contacts with app experience available, and may farm this to them if there's enough interest.
Maybe the problem is that only the US have "HD Radio", and the rest of the world either has already or is starting to adopt DAB. Consequently the Chinese Android suppliers (Head Units or Adapters) are focused on DAB.
Have you looked at the GROM HDR1 ? Maybe this could be adapted to talk to android ?
I definitely agree as to the nature of the problem.
As for the GROM unit, I actually did look at this. Unfortunately the GROM units seem to be geared around a CD changer interface, which isn't supported by these head units.
I wonder if this code could be used to decode the NRSC-5.
Google
"DECODING AND LISTENING TO HD RADIO (NRSC-5) WITH AN RTL-SDR"
Not able to post the URL.
Also look at theori.io
I have also been looking for this for a long time and the only solution I've found it to attach an external hd tuner to the input of the stereo. the one I'm using is Directed Electronics DMHD-1000 HD Radio Tuner. it adds extra hardware but works great and has a huge improvement overall compared to the built in tuner on the head unit.
Agreed - there is a significant gap in functionality here and wish we had a solution for it. I can't speak to the quality of DAB because i've never listened to it, however, i've read that HD Radio is far superior. Still looking for a solution.
I'd like to see a solution for HD Radio on Android as well. I'm currently using an Insignia HD Radio Portable Player NS-HD02 connected to the audio-in jack on my car's radio. The Insignia player has a touchscreen and displays album and station art and the audio quality is much better than what I receive via the analog broadcasts. These units are extremely rare now but once in a while they still pop up on eBay or other auction sites. I was pretty envious when I saw the DAB USB adapters with software for Android and Android head units recently. Love my Insignia radio but a larger screen akin to a head unit or tablet would be very welcome.
In the US it is standard in the meanwhile, but not available in Europe and China.
This is exactly the point in the moment. They have no clue about the existence of HD-Radio.
AFAIK there are only some tests running in Romania and Swiss, but for Europe it would not work:
However, this increases the frequency requirement and could lead to interference from neighboring channels. In Europe, a channel spacing of 100 kHz is common on ultra-short wave (VHF), while in the USA it is 200 kHz.
At least the reason to work with DAB+ in Europe and a lot of other states.
You need to talk with your seller and ask for HD-Radio in special. You won´t get it soon, but someone has to start developing on their side.