I doubt I'm alone in the US in wanting HD Radio (NRSC-5) support on our Android Head Units. I did a little looking as to what would be required to get this running. There is effectively no ready-made solution that is compatible with our Android Head Units.
Over at GitHub, there's a project which you can build on Linux (or Windows under MinGW). When paired with a USB SDR (the cheap ones based on the RTL2832U chipset), this will correctly decode and play the HD radio stream at the specified frequency. Here's the link: https://github.com/theori-io/nrsc5
I think all we'd need to get this working for Android is:
1) Being able to build the binary and libraries for the Android platform.
2) A simple UI. All it would need to do at a minimum is allow us to add station frequencies as bookmarks, and then control launching and stopping the NRSC5 binary. This wouldn't necessarily be as seamless as some would like, but it would be a great start, in my opinion.
3) Eventually, we might want to look into scanning functionalities, integration with standard FM radio (to auto-switch to HD when available), displaying title/artist data, etc.
I'm willing to kick in say $20 or so for this functionality. Perhaps enough of us could pledge some money for a functional delivered APK?
jpreston84 said:
I doubt I'm alone in the US in wanting HD Radio (NRSC-5) support on our Android Head Units. I did a little looking as to what would be required to get this running. There is effectively no ready-made solution that is compatible with our Android Head Units.
Over at GitHub, there's a project which you can build on Linux (or Windows under MinGW). When paired with a USB SDR (the cheap ones based on the RTL2832U chipset), this will correctly decode and play the HD radio stream at the specified frequency. Here's the link: https://github.com/theori-io/nrsc5
I think all we'd need to get this working for Android is:
1) Being able to build the binary and libraries for the Android platform.
2) A simple UI. All it would need to do at a minimum is allow us to add station frequencies as bookmarks, and then control launching and stopping the NRSC5 binary. This wouldn't necessarily be as seamless as some would like, but it would be a great start, in my opinion.
3) Eventually, we might want to look into scanning functionalities, integration with standard FM radio (to auto-switch to HD when available), displaying title/artist data, etc.
I'm willing to kick in say $20 or so for this functionality. Perhaps enough of us could pledge some money for a functional delivered APK?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your best approach would be to write a broadcast radio HAL for it.
Here is one for a DMHD-1000: https://github.com/HiKey960-Car/android_device_linaro_hikey/tree/dmhd1000/broadcastradio
Note that this HAL is for Android 8.1+
If you insist on the sdr route with its inherently non-reception, you would obviously have to import the source for that into the HAL and connect it up.
Thanks for the added info.
I am not personally tied as to which way this is made to work. What I, and I think many others, would prefer to have, is a simple means to add HD Radio capability to their Android Head Units. Most common lately are the PX5 MTCD units (which is what I myself have), meaning we'd want something compatible with Android 6 (though as I understand, Oreo should be available sooner or later). If we can make this work with the built in FM radio chipset already present in these units, that's great. If using an SDR is required, that's fine too, as far as I'm concerned.
jpreston84 said:
Thanks for the added info.
I am not personally tied as to which way this is made to work. What I, and I think many others, would prefer to have, is a simple means to add HD Radio capability to their Android Head Units. Most common lately are the PX5 MTCD units (which is what I myself have), meaning we'd want something compatible with Android 6 (though as I understand, Oreo should be available sooner or later). If we can make this work with the built in FM radio chipset already present in these units, that's great. If using an SDR is required, that's fine too, as far as I'm concerned.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The built in fm radio is *not* capable of HD.
And the cheap chinese radios probably won't be too happy working with anything you try to attach to them, its the chinese way to sell you something that is broken as hell and take extraordinary measures to prevent you from fixing it yourself.
Take a peek at the project that that HAL is associated with.
I'm not sure what your particular interest in that project is, but it really is out of scope. What I'm aimed at are the many of us who have MTCD/MTCE units (in my case, of the PX5 variety, which many people have now). We already have these units, and they perform sufficiently for most of our needs. We simply would like to add HD radio capability.
We can already attach the SDR I mentioned to the head unit and use it. We simply lack the software to decode the HD signal (and no compatible hardware product seems to be available, or I'd probably buy that). The decoding software is available for Linux, which gives us at least a possibility of building this for use on Android.
jpreston84 said:
I'm not sure what your particular interest in that project is, but it really is out of scope. What I'm aimed at are the many of us who have MTCD/MTCE units (in my case, of the PX5 variety, which many people have now). We already have these units, and they perform sufficiently for most of our needs. We simply would like to add HD radio capability.
We can already attach the SDR I mentioned to the head unit and use it. We simply lack the software to decode the HD signal (and no compatible hardware product seems to be available, or I'd probably buy that). The decoding software is available for Linux, which gives us at least a possibility of building this for use on Android.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've had those units too, and they don't perform sufficiently for ANYTHING. They are worse than useless.
And I'm not even talking about SPEED when I say performance. They're fundamentally broken, hacked to hell and back, and not one thing works correctly on them. You can't even reliably make a phone call.
I appreciate that you don't like those units. But here's the reality -- a lot of us do. If you don't, that's fine, but it doesn't give you reason to undercut the entire basis of the project, when you don't actually have a better answer. The goal of this particular thread was to find a way to add HD Radio functionality to the MTCD/MTCE units we already own. These units integrate well with our cars (no one else offers a good face plate or buttons that look like they belong in my car). No, they're not perfect (I've replaced the ROM, and the Wifi/Bluetooth on mine, which makes the unit quite usable in my view), but they're the best option I, and many others, have available. The project you've linked isn't nearly as plug-and-play, even with the modifications I've done to my PX5 unit. Use what you like, but don't assume that everyone else must use what you like.
Additionally, the ability to use an SDR for this means you can toss one on your phone as well, which would probably be very interesting to some people.
So, back to where this started please -- is there any developer out there who would be willing to work on porting this code to an Android app? Anyone else willing to put up some money as a reward for whoever that brave developer ends up being?
jpreston84 said:
I appreciate that you don't like those units. But here's the reality -- a lot of us do. If you don't, that's fine, but it doesn't give you reason to undercut the entire basis of the project, when you don't actually have a better answer. The goal of this particular thread was to find a way to add HD Radio functionality to the MTCD/MTCE units we already own. These units integrate well with our cars (no one else offers a good face plate or buttons that look like they belong in my car). No, they're not perfect (I've replaced the ROM, and the Wifi/Bluetooth on mine, which makes the unit quite usable in my view), but they're the best option I, and many others, have available. The project you've linked isn't nearly as plug-and-play, even with the modifications I've done to my PX5 unit. Use what you like, but don't assume that everyone else must use what you like.
Additionally, the ability to use an SDR for this means you can toss one on your phone as well, which would probably be very interesting to some people.
So, back to where this started please -- is there any developer out there who would be willing to work on porting this code to an Android app? Anyone else willing to put up some money as a reward for whoever that brave developer ends up being?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My answer is better. Fact.
And no, you won't find anyone "porting" anything like that to an "app". Won't work, because applications don't have hardware access on Android.
Your answer is literally useless to most people. But hey, if you want to tell me how to get from what you suggested to a working, fully installed unit in my car, complete with appropriately sized bezel and physical buttons, I'm ready to hear it.
On the other hand, what it seems like you're trying to do is garner support for the project you mentioned (which I assume you have some connection to). If that's your goal, you're doing a bad job of it.
If anyone else sees this and shares my interest, please PM me -- I do have contacts with app experience available, and may farm this to them if there's enough interest.
Maybe the problem is that only the US have "HD Radio", and the rest of the world either has already or is starting to adopt DAB. Consequently the Chinese Android suppliers (Head Units or Adapters) are focused on DAB.
Have you looked at the GROM HDR1 ? Maybe this could be adapted to talk to android ?
I definitely agree as to the nature of the problem.
As for the GROM unit, I actually did look at this. Unfortunately the GROM units seem to be geared around a CD changer interface, which isn't supported by these head units.
I wonder if this code could be used to decode the NRSC-5.
Google
"DECODING AND LISTENING TO HD RADIO (NRSC-5) WITH AN RTL-SDR"
Not able to post the URL.
Also look at theori.io
I have also been looking for this for a long time and the only solution I've found it to attach an external hd tuner to the input of the stereo. the one I'm using is Directed Electronics DMHD-1000 HD Radio Tuner. it adds extra hardware but works great and has a huge improvement overall compared to the built in tuner on the head unit.
Agreed - there is a significant gap in functionality here and wish we had a solution for it. I can't speak to the quality of DAB because i've never listened to it, however, i've read that HD Radio is far superior. Still looking for a solution.
I'd like to see a solution for HD Radio on Android as well. I'm currently using an Insignia HD Radio Portable Player NS-HD02 connected to the audio-in jack on my car's radio. The Insignia player has a touchscreen and displays album and station art and the audio quality is much better than what I receive via the analog broadcasts. These units are extremely rare now but once in a while they still pop up on eBay or other auction sites. I was pretty envious when I saw the DAB USB adapters with software for Android and Android head units recently. Love my Insignia radio but a larger screen akin to a head unit or tablet would be very welcome.
In the US it is standard in the meanwhile, but not available in Europe and China.
This is exactly the point in the moment. They have no clue about the existence of HD-Radio.
AFAIK there are only some tests running in Romania and Swiss, but for Europe it would not work:
However, this increases the frequency requirement and could lead to interference from neighboring channels. In Europe, a channel spacing of 100 kHz is common on ultra-short wave (VHF), while in the USA it is 200 kHz.
At least the reason to work with DAB+ in Europe and a lot of other states.
You need to talk with your seller and ask for HD-Radio in special. You won´t get it soon, but someone has to start developing on their side.
Related
For those of you who don't know about these new head units. It is the first headunit that is running an Android based operating system that is compatible with MirrorLink.
I can't post a link but if you google "mobile electronics magizine xav-601bt" you can find a lot of info on it.
I am curious what people are going to do with these once it is rooted, just think of the possibilities!
What are the chances we can get MirrorLink to work on all android based devices? So far it looks to only be planned for new phones but I am sure that we could change that.
Nobody else thinks this is amazing? You now can install an android based computer/audio/video in your car that you can mirror your phone's interface on!! Literally your car can now do everything your phone does, something people have wanted to do years.
I'm doing some research on the XAV-601BT right now. Saw you posted some info on another car audio site and I would like to know what you think of the unit. Such as: what apps would currently integrate an xperia pro freshly updated to android 4.** and are there any known issues with particular devices or configurations? Any mod sites messing around with getting rid of the bugs yet, safety nannies or performance wise? I can't find much besides chatter yet.
You mentioned that you had access to a unit and if it is installed could you give some details of what it is pushing and how it is performing?
Thanks allot. I am holding out for another unit that has been delayed again but this might make me pull the trigger. And yes, the prospect of running all my phone apps via my head unit makes me happy, let alone being able to root and customize.
MOJoWales
MOJoWales said:
I'm doing some research on the XAV-601BT right now. Saw you posted some info on another car audio site and I would like to know what you think of the unit. Such as: what apps would currently integrate an xperia pro freshly updated to android 4.** and are there any known issues with particular devices or configurations? Any mod sites messing around with getting rid of the bugs yet, safety nannies or performance wise? I can't find much besides chatter yet.
You mentioned that you had access to a unit and if it is installed could you give some details of what it is pushing and how it is performing?
Thanks allot. I am holding out for another unit that has been delayed again but this might make me pull the trigger. And yes, the prospect of running all my phone apps via my head unit makes me happy, let alone being able to root and customize.
MOJoWales
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you don't have the right phone for it.. only Nokia and the new Samsung Galaxy S3 support Mirror Link.
I've read somewhere that Mirror Link is hardware based, but maybe it's the same technology as MHL.
Thanks for the reply. I read that the 2012 Xperias would be MirrorLink capable too. I came across conflicting information on it being implementable for smartphones that had output capabilities of uUSB and HDMI like my Xperia pro. If a phone can support RealVNP I think it should work but I'm just learning about this technology. I've got some research to do on this before I pull the trigger because I want/need qwerty with my hand size and I don't see anything similar to the pro in the pipeline that would come factory capable with MirrorLink.
Anybody know for sure what it would take to run MirrorLink on a phone like the 2011 Xperia pro?
Xof_ said:
I think you don't have the right phone for it.. only Nokia and the new Samsung Galaxy S3 support Mirror Link.
I've read somewhere that Mirror Link is hardware based, but maybe it's the same technology as MHL.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He is right about the S3 and nokia phones being the first supported. Windows phones and other phones are expected in the future but there is little information available. I originally heard that mirrorlink was a hardware solution but now I believe it is software. There is a good chance that it could be ported but it is going to be hard to tell until the S3 launches and some people on here start playing with it. I also hope they make an area for the XAV-601BT and XAV-701HD on this site so people can start focusing on rooting the unit as it is Android bassed.
I have used the unit and even without the mirrorlink it is an amazing unit. It literally does everything I could want in a double din head unit.
I currently have the xav-601bt i picked up from my audio shop yesterday. I also have a htc sense and the unit will only display unsuported device. Speaking with the sony west coast rep today, I was informed that there will be rollouts for the mirror link. It seems that it will be an app you can download from the play store.
The rollouts are expected to be every 60 days, but as for what phones are capable of running the mirror link protocol remains a mystery.
I offered my phone to be tested for there software but he will have to check with his higher ups about that. I am hoping that it will soon be available for download and one of the developers that crack it to work with other phones, like the netflix and hulu apps.
I am still waiting on information from the east coast rep on this as well. If I get anymore information I'll be sure to post it here.
Could you post some experiences with this unit? Do you think it's fast enough? How about the touchscreen; how well does it react to your finger and what about the sun.
There is a russian video on youtube giving a demo of this device.. not much to understand (at least for me) but at least you can see the features a little bit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGMxaMnfTFo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB9V641jTZQ
As you can see in the video, it's not as smooth as I hoped for.. sometimes you have to touch something two or three times before it works.
Xof_ said:
Could you post some experiences with this unit? Do you think it's fast enough? How about the touchscreen; how well does it react to your finger and what about the sun.
There is a russian video on youtube giving a demo of this device.. not much to understand (at least for me) but at least you can see the features a little bit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGMxaMnfTFo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB9V641jTZQ
As you can see in the video, it's not as smooth as I hoped for.. sometimes you have to touch something two or three times before it works.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have this unit as well and have had it since late May. It is actually pretty responsive(for a touchscreen head unit) and boots up fast. I am coming from a x930BT which was horrible in both of these areas. The having to press more than once is more related to how accurate you need to be to hit what the unit considers the button. It is small area that accepts the input for that button, hopefully they address this in a FW update.
As for the Sun question - pretty bad, but my car has a bad location for the radio that doesn't help the problem any. The sun beats directly on the screen and it is completely washed out.
Thanks tvrvic for the reply
Hmm the sun problem is not a good thing, a lot of units have problems with that and I hoped that a big company as Sony wouldn't have this problem.
I've had this unit for a few days so far and love it. I'm order the steering wheel control adapter today. It has a matte finish on the screen and that helps the glare, I can see the screen just fine.
.
Thread moved to Q&A due to it being a question. Would advise you to read forum rules and post in correct section.
Failure to comply with forum rules will result in an infraction and/or ban depending on severity of rule break.
walkeryan said:
I've had this unit for a few days so far and love it. I'm order the steering wheel control adapter today. It has a matte finish on the screen and that helps the glare, I can see the screen just fine.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks, I also just saw this link: http://forums.mcx7.com/showthread.php/132693-Double-Din-Sony-XAV-601BT-Install-pics! with a photo of the unit in the sun and it looks good
Now we just need to root it
Hi Guys just asking for a bit of an update - im in the uk so the bigger 701hd isnt out yet, i was looking at the Alpine ICS x-8 which also supports mirror link - there is a demo out on youtube which shows it working with the Galaxy S2! Do you guys think this would work with the S3?
nubz69 said:
Now we just need to root it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This head unit does not actually run Android, so there's nothing to root. It uses MirrorLink to mirror your phone's display on the head unit. You'll have to wait a few months for Clarion's double din Android head unit to release to have Android running natively on your head unit. There are some cheap no-name head units out there right now running Android, but they're poor quality and I don't think any of them are even running Gingerbread.
thanks for that info.
so the sony won't be hackable. given that, is mirrorlink's app approval mechanism hackable on the android end? does anyone know mirrorlink tech beyond:
Universal Plug and Play (UPnP™) is used for controlled access to applications. Virtual Network Computing (VNC™) is used to replicate the phone's display on the navigation screen and communicate user inputs back to the phone. Besides Bluetooth™, audio can also be streamed using the Real-Time Protocol (RTP).
MirrorLink™ also provides a mechanism that ensures only approved applications are accessible while driving.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
(from terminalmode<dot>org<slash>technology<dot>html)
thanks,
shiraz
ydoucare said:
This head unit does not actually run Android, so there's nothing to root. It uses MirrorLink to mirror your phone's display on the head unit. You'll have to wait a few months for Clarion's double din Android head unit to release to have Android running natively on your head unit. There are some cheap no-name head units out there right now running Android, but they're poor quality and I don't think any of them are even running Gingerbread.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I just installed this unit in my car - the Open source license page on the unit shows a lot of .apk files and also reference AOSP, and Linux 2.6.x licenses - so it is Linux
The mirror link support looks like it comes from tmlibs.so - which they published on their support site (Trying to find the links - I downloaded what they published for opensource -
the libraries they put on their site were: (Repeating tar.bz2 was their names)
EDIT: the url for the sony site is : http://www.sony.net/Products/Linux/Audio/XAV-701BT.html
GPL_SGX_KM_20111130.tar.bz2.tar.bz2.tar.bz2
alsa-lib.tar.gz
dnsmasq.tar.gz
iproute2.tar.gz
iptables.tar.gz
webkit.tar.gz
kernel.tar.gz
and the most interesting
ML_Necessitas_Build.tar.bz2.tar.bz2.tar.bz2
TmLibs.tar.bz2.tar.bz2.tar.bz2
The TmLibs looks like it has a mirrorlink server and client embeded, using the QT libraries in the ML_Necessitas, and there is an ortpLib directory in there as well.
Would it be possible they are running some android apks within the system as the USB music app seems very androidish (menus & icons) while the ipod app not so much?
http://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/car/mirrorlink/compatibility/kw-nsx1.html
Support for the Samsung GALAXY S III is planned. Car Mode compatibility will differ by country or region.
Support for Europe was going to be available on July 20 2012.
But, Support for Europe will be delayed to August 31 2012, because of software development has been delayed.
And timing for US/Canada is TBA. Support for Asia/Middle East is TBA.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So MirrorLink with the JVC will work at the end of August, so I guess that will also mean Sony will support it by that date.
Hi there,
I searched, but didn't see this addressed specifically so here we go. If the topic is already covered, let's kill this thread and redirect to the other. I'm not proud.
I recently discovered that it's time for a new HU for my car - 2006 Audi A4 with RNS-E nav - and wanted better tech. I've been looking at the Pioneer units with Android Auto, but don't like how limited it is. If I want to use Waze for nav and Torque for OBD, etc, that's not going to work. So I dug into Android head units, but I'm a bit confused.
As near as I can tell, there are several companies selling exactly the same hardware. Pumpkin, Joying, and several others all sell HUs that are physically identical and have the same hardware specs. I'm guessing the difference is in the ROM rather than the hardware, but y'all probably can tell me whether that's true or not.
If the hardware is the same, is it possible to run a ROM for one brand on another? Seems likely, but I wouldn't want to bank on that when I buy. So if the hardware is the same but I need to pick a brand, what's the best option? Is there any appreciable difference in stability, sound quality, user interface, feature implementation, etc that would push me to choose one brand over another? I know that's subjective, but there's some pretty deep knowledge in this group and I'm just getting started on the car audio stuff with Android.
Again, if this has been answered already, just point me to the thread and I'm OK with a moderator killing this one.
Thanks!
StunGod said:
Hi there,
I searched, but didn't see this addressed specifically so here we go. If the topic is already covered, let's kill this thread and redirect to the other. I'm not proud.
I recently discovered that it's time for a new HU for my car - 2006 Audi A4 with RNS-E nav - and wanted better tech. I've been looking at the Pioneer units with Android Auto, but don't like how limited it is. If I want to use Waze for nav and Torque for OBD, etc, that's not going to work. So I dug into Android head units, but I'm a bit confused.
As near as I can tell, there are several companies selling exactly the same hardware. Pumpkin, Joying, and several others all sell HUs that are physically identical and have the same hardware specs. I'm guessing the difference is in the ROM rather than the hardware, but y'all probably can tell me whether that's true or not.
If the hardware is the same, is it possible to run a ROM for one brand on another? Seems likely, but I wouldn't want to bank on that when I buy. So if the hardware is the same but I need to pick a brand, what's the best option? Is there any appreciable difference in stability, sound quality, user interface, feature implementation, etc that would push me to choose one brand over another? I know that's subjective, but there's some pretty deep knowledge in this group and I'm just getting started on the car audio stuff with Android.
Again, if this has been answered already, just point me to the thread and I'm OK with a moderator killing this one.
Thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If there's no difference in hardware, why not read some product reviews to know these brands better and then choose the one who provides high quality product and better after-sales service. Nowadays you can get many information from Google.
u.r.rible said:
If there's no difference in hardware, why not read some product reviews to know these brands better and then choose the one who provides high quality product and better after-sales service. Nowadays you can get many information from Google.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, thanks for the advice. Terribly helpful.
I have a Ownice C200 and since the last update i'm very satisfied.
The only thing that could improved is the radio reception that sometimes fade away a bit, despite you can mount a wifi antenna on the radio, the reception stays weak, the manufacturer doesn't give root.
good things are... phone calls are very good, gps works fine, good sound quality (i got mine hooked up on a audison voce AV 5.1K amplifier)
The pumpkin, joying, kgl and many others, share the same hardware probably made by one manufacturer with only 1 gb mem and no bluetooth 3.0.
Ownice has 2gb and bluetooth 3.0
Ownice produces also for Navall, Navall import the radios in to Europe Canada the US, and have a certified repair depo in the UK.
You can check Pumpkin http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pumpkin-2003-2011-Bluetooth-Steering-Subwoofer/dp/B0109UATOC/
Is there such a thing as an Android head unit that ships with open source firmware such as Cyanogen?
On one hand, I really want an Android head unit just for the Google Maps.
On the other hand. given the number of critical privilege escalation exploits and in some case remote code execution exploits that are being published and fixed on a monthly basis, using an Android device that is not fully patched yet is plugged straight into the vehicle's CAN bus sounds like as ill advised an idea as it can possibly get.
So - is there such a thing as a Cyanogen (or similar) based Android firmware for an Android head unit?
I think it's more an issue of these units coming with Rockchip CPUs and a community to build the radio/DVD/CD apps lacking.
Would gladly pay £50 more for a Snapdragon 625 (14 mm processor) version of these head units
Arguably, the existing apps can be extracted from the stock ROM.
I don't see what the performance and efficiency of the SoC has to do with anything.
My concern is purely around the timely security patches. Using an unpatched phone is bad enough. Using an unpatched device plugged into the car's CAN bus is borderline suicidally stupid.
I was referring more to use of Snapdragon processors as they are open source drivers so ROMs can be developed for them and added my personal preference after.
shatteredsilicon said:
Is there such a thing as an Android head unit that ships with open source firmware such as Cyanogen?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ha ha ha, not from these dodgy Chinese manufacturers!
shatteredsilicon said:
plugged straight into the vehicle's CAN bus sounds like as ill advised an idea as it can possibly get.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You don't have to connect the CAN bus, I haven't in my car.
shatteredsilicon said:
So - is there such a thing as a Cyanogen (or similar) based Android firmware for an Android head unit?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I believe someone is working on a port for one of the Newsmy units, not sure where it's at but I can tell you that because of the RK3188 chip they've had to keep the old 3.0 kernel that it came with.
The binary blobs supplied for some parts make using other kernels too difficult.
kobirulali said:
I was referring more to use of Snapdragon processors as they are open source drivers so ROMs can be developed for them and added my personal preference after.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So every last one of the currently available Android based head units is based on a closed source GPL violating SoC?
leonkernan said:
You don't have to connect the CAN bus, I haven't in my car.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What functionality is lost by not doing so? And given how the head unit is usually quite important to the functioning of the CAN bus, how many other things will stop working or result in various errors to permanently come up on the dashboard?
leonkernan said:
I believe someone is working on a port for one of the Newsmy units, not sure where it's at but I can tell you that because of the RK3188 chip they've had to keep the old 3.0 kernel that it came with.
The binary blobs supplied for some parts make using other kernels too difficult.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There are enough critical CVEs against the Linux kernel on a regular enough basis (including the recent CVE-2016-5195) that not having the kernel source available is bad enough to make any device that doesn't either have full sources available or a cast iron commitment from the manufacturer to release monthly Android security updates completely unviable.
I guess that means that until there is a Cyanogen supported head unit I won't be getting one...
shatteredsilicon said:
So every last one of the currently available Android based head units is based on a closed source GPL violating SoC?
What functionality is lost by not doing so? And given how the head unit is usually quite important to the functioning of the CAN bus, how many other things will stop working or result in various errors to permanently come up on the dashboard?
There are enough critical CVEs against the Linux kernel on a regular enough basis (including the recent CVE-2016-5195) that not having the kernel source available is bad enough to make any device that doesn't either have full sources available or a cast iron commitment from the manufacturer to release monthly Android security updates completely unviable.
I guess that means that until there is a Cyanogen supported head unit I won't be getting one...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Or build your own. http://forum.xda-developers.com/android-auto/android-head-units/diy-2din-project-t3469332
shatteredsilicon said:
What functionality is lost by not doing so? And given how the head unit is usually quite important to the functioning of the CAN bus, how many other things will stop working or result in various errors to permanently come up on the dashboard?
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In my Toyota, none. As for other models, I can't say as I haven't tried it.
shatteredsilicon said:
Is there such a thing as an Android head unit that ships with open source firmware such as Cyanogen?
On one hand, I really want an Android head unit just for the Google Maps.
On the other hand. given the number of critical privilege escalation exploits and in some case remote code execution exploits that are being published and fixed on a monthly basis, using an Android device that is not fully patched yet is plugged straight into the vehicle's CAN bus sounds like as ill advised an idea as it can possibly get.
So - is there such a thing as a Cyanogen (or similar) based Android firmware for an Android head unit?
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Nothing currently.
I anticipate that the new intel units will be a bit easier to deal with.
The major stumbling block will be in adapting the car-specific functionality of the MCU board.
shatteredsilicon said:
So every last one of the currently available Android based head units is based on a closed source GPL violating SoC?
What functionality is lost by not doing so? And given how the head unit is usually quite important to the functioning of the CAN bus, how many other things will stop working or result in various errors to permanently come up on the dashboard?
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I don't know of a single car that requires an OBD plugin to the head unit I don't know where you got that idea from but I think you received some bad info
This may be the case on some of the newest cars but otherwise no it is not needed at all
I'm pretty sure OBD and CAN are two completely unrelated things.
Examples of functionality that would almost certainly be lost without a CAN connection include things like trip computer information, time configuration (shows up on the dashboard but is only configurable via the head unit), and other similar things.
wingzero186 said:
I don't know of a single car that requires an OBD plugin to the head unit I don't know where you got that idea from but I think you received some bad info
This may be the case on some of the newest cars but otherwise no it is not needed at all
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shatteredsilicon said:
I'm pretty sure OBD and CAN are two completely unrelated things.
Examples of functionality that would almost certainly be lost without a CAN connection include things like trip computer information, time configuration (shows up on the dashboard but is only configurable via the head unit), and other similar things.
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Click to collapse
OBD and CAN are definitely different, but can be somewhat related and intertwined. as most ODB ports also provide CAN access. As more and more of the functions and information are integrated into the "radio screen" (at that point they aren't really Radio's anymore, but entertainment centers and/or Multi-Information-Displays, etc.), then it will be tougher to use 'generic' devices. And to think we are trusting the coders working on these boxes to properly handle CAN messages?
If you really want to scare yourself, do some googling on various CAN and vehicle system exploits/hacks. Then remember that you are putting a rooted android device directly on that bus.
Zaphod-Beeblebrox said:
Then remember that you are putting a rooted android device directly on that bus.
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I really don't understand the obsession with rooting Android devices. It seems like a particularly pointless way of de-securing the device for negligible benefit. I guess it appeals to the sort of people that drive a car without wearing a seatbelt or ride a motorbike without wearing a helmet, but that doesn't make it clever.
shatteredsilicon said:
I really don't understand the obsession with rooting Android devices. It seems like a particularly pointless way of de-securing the device for negligible benefit. I guess it appeals to the sort of people that drive a car without wearing a seatbelt or ride a motorbike without wearing a helmet, but that doesn't make it clever.
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Wow.... your life must not be so great.... no fun AND you don't even understand why people Root?
LOL.
shatteredsilicon said:
Arguably, the existing apps can be extracted from the stock ROM.
I don't see what the performance and efficiency of the SoC has to do with anything.
My concern is purely around the timely security patches. Using an unpatched phone is bad enough. Using an unpatched device plugged into the car's CAN bus is borderline suicidally stupid.
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I think the number of these head units (Chinese/Generic) that are plugged into the CAN bus is quite minimal. There may be a subset of users who have it, but most are simply connected to the 12+V, common ground, the AM/FM antenna, the speakers and/or an amp.. There may be some sense wires for reverse gear, illumination, etc, but they don't transmit anything and do not control anything outside the head unit That's the typcal level of in-car integration (aside from those who might also be adding a bluetooth OBD dongle...but that's another issue.)
The concern over potential security issues that the OP raised, however, are legitimate. Because the vast majority of these head units have Wifi enabled, which is easily exploitable, especially when well-know exploits have not been patched. And very few (if any) will ever receive an update from the OEM who created the original ROM.
To be fully transparent, this is a common security issue that affects ALL Android devices that are not regularly updated when Google patches the code base. So I think using a lower-tier cell phone would be lot more of a concern (if I were using one), simply because of the potential loss of personal data if it were remotely hacked because of a known Android exploit. That's exactly what I would be worried about if I were inputting any personal data to a head unit that could be accessed remotely.
If you keep that potential problem in mind, I think the security on one is no worse than using a second or third tier Android phone that does not get any updates. I would be especially careful about using a "real" Google account when downloading anything or browsing the web through one of these things.
Just my $0.2
tbd2k2 said:
I think the number of these head units (Chinese/Generic) that are plugged into the CAN bus is quite minimal. There may be a subset of users who have it, but most are simply connected to the 12+V, common ground, the AM/FM antenna, the speakers and/or an amp.. There may be some sense wires for reverse gear, illumination, etc, but they don't transmit anything and do not control anything outside the head unit That's the typcal level of in-car integration (aside from those who might also be adding a bluetooth OBD dongle...but that's another issue.)
The concern over potential security issues that the OP raised, however, are legitimate. Because the vast majority of these head units have Wifi enabled, which is easily exploitable, especially when well-know exploits have not been patched. And very few (if any) will ever receive an update from the OEM who created the original ROM.
To be fully transparent, this is a common security issue that affects ALL Android devices that are not regularly updated when Google patches the code base. So I think using a lower-tier cell phone would be lot more of a concern (if I were using one), simply because of the potential loss of personal data if it were remotely hacked because of a known Android exploit. That's exactly what I would be worried about if I were inputting any personal data to a head unit that could be accessed remotely.
If you keep that potential problem in mind, I think the security on one is no worse than using a second or third tier Android phone that does not get any updates. I would be especially careful about using a "real" Google account when downloading anything or browsing the web through one of these things.
Just my $0.2
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I agree with all of your sentiments here except the minimizing of the numbers plugged into canbus. I think you underestimate those. All of these devices that are 'model specific' (ie, trim panels fit a specific model) and support SWC are plugged into the CAN bus. Most of these devices are getting their SWC from CAN. They also display things like AC controls, Door openings, push RDS through Multi-Info-Displays in the gauge cluster, etc.
I think being connect to CAN, plus all the things you mentioned above, should give people some concern.
I'm still waiting for the first example of Ransomware that threatens to take your brakes out if you don't pay. May seem a little far fetched, but if you do any serious looking at CAN exploits, these things are possible.
Yes, you are probably correct on the numbers connected to CANBUS. I don't have that in my car, it's older, so I was over generalizing.
Newer models of cars have it and those selling manufacturer-specific head units often advtertise that they can accept CANBUS data. So, the newer the car and the more model-specific the unit, the more likely the CANBUS connection.
Not sure about the ransomware threat in a head unit though. It's possible,I suppose. But if a car head unit maker deliberately allowed that or if it was commonly known that a certain vendor had that problem, I think their sales would drop to zero rather quickly.
You would be surprised. My best friend works on automotive embedded electronics, and the industry has changed massively in the past 10 years, in terms of exactly these kinds of devices. A decade ago nobody even remotely considered the aspects of security isolation between different systems on various buses. Today it's the biggest focus of the design and development. Bottom line, you _really_ don't want to attach an unpatched Android devices to the CAN bus of even the newest cars that are still getting firmware updates and were designed with CAN security in mind, let alone a 10 year old car that was designed at a time when CAN bus security wasn't even a consideration.
There have been several demonstrations recently of CAN hacks over various means that can seriously affect critical systems like engine and brakes.
shatteredsilicon said:
I really don't understand the obsession with rooting Android devices. It seems like a particularly pointless way of de-securing the device for negligible benefit. I guess it appeals to the sort of people that drive a car without wearing a seatbelt or ride a motorbike without wearing a helmet, but that doesn't make it clever.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First off, root does NOT mean you are losing ANY degree of security.
However, the implementation of accessing that root CAN be dangerous, for instance, SuperSU is a NOT SECURE. SuperSU hands your device's most intimate controls over to a black box corporation with unknown motivations and no public face. THAT is scary.
Root access can actually IMPROVE security, because it allows you the access needed in order to AUDIT the device's security. This is something you don't have without root access.
The first rule of root is that you should ONLY use OPEN SOURCE software to manage it (i.e. https://github.com/seSuperUser). This is because being open source means that you (or somebody you trust) can audit the code directly, and understand EXACTLY what it is doing.
As for the benefit, the fact that you are unable to comprehend what you can really do with root access doesn't mean that the benefits are "negligible". You're thinking along a very shallow line, such as changing the system UI to use predominantly PINK coloring scheme. This is not a benefit of root, this is just silly. I'm not going to go into what you can do with root, because the reality is that the only limit is YOUR IMAGINATION.
shatteredsilicon said:
Is there such a thing as an Android head unit that ships with open source firmware such as Cyanogen?
On one hand, I really want an Android head unit just for the Google Maps.
On the other hand. given the number of critical privilege escalation exploits and in some case remote code execution exploits that are being published and fixed on a monthly basis, using an Android device that is not fully patched yet is plugged straight into the vehicle's CAN bus sounds like as ill advised an idea as it can possibly get.
So - is there such a thing as a Cyanogen (or similar) based Android firmware for an Android head unit?
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Click to collapse
Getting back to the original question, there is one "Chinese android head unit" where there has been some CM development work going on.
It's the NEWSMY carpad. Here is a link to the thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/and...-units/newsmy-carpad-nu3001-cm13-rom-t3469306
On Road test of Ownice C500 – two weeks usage. DON’T BUY.:crying::crying:
I bought more than two weeks ago the unit. I installed on Subaru BRZ (same as Toyota GT86 and same wiring and Toyota harness of course, it's the same car!).
I was tired about BT issues on Xtrons PH75HGTA – MTCD platform on Lollipop 5.1 - related to DashCommand unable to pairing, usb dongle key operating only as router (wifi only 2.4Ghz not 5GHZ) and not in modem way, therefore you were obliged to run Dashcommand (and Torque Pro) with WiFi ODB loosing Internet connection capabilities.
About these features C500 fits well:
You can be online with a microSIM (4g/LTE full compliants to Euro frequencies), run DashCommand with ODB Link LX (genuine), answer the phone on BT (S7 Edge) or if you have a call+data plan on SIM you can make calls from C500 directly.
This sounds good but:
(After 4 firmware flashing - up to V39, latest available)
-FM RADIO is not a real RDS, no TEXT ON RDS, therefore you are on a ’80 radio (Saturday Night Fever age). Today in Europe none is surfing on numeric frequencies since 25 years.
- Equalization, lower and poor, the worst unit on the market (3 levels, bass, middle and treble with an elephantiac sensitivity)
-Sound with no support to subwoofer frequencies, sound is poor with high range speakers, let’s imagine on stock speakers
- DAB radio (same apk running on Xtrons and same usb dongle) has a indecent sound quality and level+, they say that the issue is from producer of apk but on Xtrons runs very well with a high sound quality.
- Rear cam image quality near indecent level (in Russian forum 4PDA someone suggested to solder a 75Ohm resistance across ground and signal wire)
- Rear cam operating only after boot, if you set power off delay time of 10 minutes and restart the car after 11 minutes ,you need to wait to see on back like in 1990: stupid
- Sound bettering (a bit) with few workarounds, you need to root unit and install Viper4Android, Busy Box and set to permissive rights
- unable for adding on memory (SD or USB) to set as system memory (not available space...it returns) only to portable way. You cannot transfer any apks.
My car hasn’t canbus drive as no steering wheel buttons are, so no issue. Someone might become crazy as I read if you get or need volume keys on steering wheel.
My rating is very negative as unit:
Don’t buy, this unit has not more than speed, only.
When you buy this kind of unit you need listen music in 2017 quality standard and not in accordance to 1960 standard, you need to see on back when you start, what is the meaning of a car cam on board if you are obliged to see on back like your father did?, you need to know the station name you are listening and see text traffic messages not search radio station like Allieds did with Nazi’s armed forces in Normandy near 1944.
Avoid IMHO to throw money, keep your MTCD (fully supported with a real and great job i.g. from Malaysk)
I understand your frustration with the unit, since the issues you mention aren't minor bugs and they impact core-features. However, coming from an MTCD-unit and reading the forums until now, I know there's two sorts of Chinese units: fair and poor, none of them are great. I had all kinds of issues on my KGL-unit, with Tomtom and other apps not installing due to the firmware used, OBD-issues, sometimes very laggy in switching between packages and all sorts of other issues. Support by KGL was none-existant. So considering the list you mention, to me it seems the basic is fine and stable, which is a good starting point. The majority of issues could be resolved if the manufacturer is willing to put some effort into it.
Issues that could be dealt with rather easily are I presume:
- add RDS-information
- Equalizer (although I would like for it to be switched off completely, I have an external amp with DSP and would like to get the signal as clean as possible, an equaliser will just eat CPU-resources, so it's not helping in my particular case)
- DAB-compatibility
Probably more difficult to solve:
- Rear cam image quality, if it's indeed hardware-related. Has somebody been able to verify the impedance-mod?
- Rear cam availability. Besides increasing standby-time somebody suggested that it would be possible for Ownice to integrate some sort of additional layer to the firmware to have access to the cam much sooner.
I'm not sure about the "no support for subwoofer frequencies". If they haven't installed a sophisticated equalizer, I don't assume the unit has a high-pass filter, so then it must be related to the sound in general and possibly in conjunction with your speaker system. I'll hopefully receive my C500 later this week, so I can test this for myself.
In the meantime big thumbs up to Bob at Winlink for reaching out. Please don't let us down and show that Ownice / Winlink understand customer service and building customer relationships!
Bob-Winlink said:
Dear Customer,
thanks for your feedback, this is bob from winlink,
pls contact us to get support on our product.
Thanks very much.
Best regards
Bob Huang
Email: [email protected]
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Hi Bob,
How do you see posting effectively "take these issues offline before I will help you" as helpful to the end user or the development of your product? As a user who has experienced this kind of support, this is the worst level of response you could offer and potentially only drive potential customers to agree with the OP and look elsewhere.
Suggest try again and solve the problems in a transparent manner.
Totally agree! I really can't understand what exactly these guys mean when they say "RDS support"? There is clearly no RDS support! Radio is supposed to be THE MOST USED FEATURE of head units and this quality level is really insane. I don't know where is the problem - lack of RDS support in the radio chip, or maybe its just the app, that is not capable to render radio station labels and other data.
Another insane thing is the sound quality! C'mon, these head units are all about audio. Everything else is just a bonus over stock head units. No one wants to downgrade sound quality when they upgrade head unit.
Above two notes are not just about C500. I have experience with several Chinese brands, all sharing same INSANE issues. And I really can't figure out why.
How much did you pay?
skezza said:
How much did you pay?
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How much you think costs the RDS support? Every dumb car stereo has it since at least 15 years. Furthermore, these guys claim they have RDS support. At least they shouldn't do that!
I would be very glad to pay extra $30 (BOM should be less actually) for some 400-500W quality audio. What we currently get is just some Chinese tablet in a 2din form-factor. This is not what market expects. At lest not me.
Bob-Winlink said:
Dear Customer,
thanks for your feedback, this is bob from winlink,
pls contact us to get support on our product.
Thanks very much.
Best regards
Bob Huang
Email: [email protected]
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for answer almost I don't like it.
Some points:
Lucky you aren't a US producer or seller: YOU CANNOT SALE GOODS WITH WRONG CAPABILITIES, if you declare RDS compliant , it means RDS not only AF, In US this means "class action" furthermore.
#1. Please advice that unit isn't RDS fully compliant otherwise re-write software to fit.
#2. Please advice that rear vision is not available on start up, same as above. It's the first HU with this ancient feature I find.
#3. I wrote three times, no answers. Check your mailbox found on home site.
#4. It Is very curious that firmware releases (up to V39) are adviced between users on 4PDA forum (Russia) or XDA, a decent producer will build a site with "Support"===> Support, Updates, Download, Firmware. This is done by any Western Producer or China Worldwide Producer (see Huawei, see Asus, see Blackvue, see any you wish), this is not serious It's not a money issue or cost as a Huawei smartphone doesn't cost the same of an iPhone or Samsung S7 Edge. It's nowaday political customer relationship, here. You are out, fired usually here.
#5. Bought a Xtrons HU that I know as capabilities are as standard way, I am waiting sending to install and remove C500 I will run it as stopper in my home entrance. I throw in bucket much $, it's life. No more Ownice/Winlink.
@Bob-Winlink For your convenience:
Contact Russian guys on Russian Forum 4PDA, they made a wide job to modify some of larger crazy features (see post 1 of thread), learn from them.
Maybe If Winlink will pay them or give them the source code, they are able to re-write all Unit not in insane way.
mishoboss said:
How much you think costs the RDS support? Every dumb car stereo has it since at least 15 years. Furthermore, these guys claim they have RDS support. At least they shouldn't do that!
I would be very glad to pay extra $30 (BOM should be less actually) for some 400-500W quality audio. What we currently get is just some Chinese tablet in a 2din form-factor. This is not what market expects. At lest not me.
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That wasn't my question.
RDS is transmitting in 57 kHz range, probably their FM tuner (C500) can not handle 57 kHz frequency.
Its not software thing, it requires new hardware. So yes, it is stupid. I want RDS = i will not buy Ownice C500.
skezza said:
That wasn't my question.
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I know your point - you get what you pay for. However I don't think C500 (or any other Android HU) could be categorized as a cheap piece of hardware. For that amount of money I would expect someone has put some thought and reason behind the product. These Chinese guys only know how to assemble. If you have dealt with Chinese, you should know all they care about is "quantity", not "quality". OK, that's fine, but for God's sake, some things are just unimaginary stupid. Fix them and you will sell more. Put some thought and reason!
mishoboss said:
I know your point - you get what you pay for. However I don't think C500 (or any other Android HU) could be categorized as a cheap piece of hardware. For that amount of money I would expect someone has put some thought and reason behind the product. These Chinese guys only know how to assemble. If you have dealt with Chinese, you should know all they care about is "quantity", not "quality". OK, that's fine, but for God's sake, some things are just unimaginary stupid. Fix them and you will sell more. Put some thought and reason!
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That wasn't my point at all, but okay.
skezza said:
That wasn't my point at all, but okay.
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OK, in this case I bring my apology. I'm curious what was your point?
mishoboss said:
OK, in this case I bring my apology. I'm curious what was your point?
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My point was if you paid a small amount, you might have actually been sold a fake or a clone or something else?
mishoboss said:
OK, in this case I bring my apology. I'm curious what was your point?
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skezza said:
My point was if you paid a small amount, you might have actually been sold a fake or a clone or something else?
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Updates? Anyone else having issues mentioned in this thread?
I think all the issues are still there on the quad cores, while the octa cores have solved most of this. I am happy, and I would buy another C500 Octa Core.
velocity4 said:
I think all the issues are still there on the quad cores, while the octa cores have solved most of this. I am happy, and I would buy another C500 Octa Core.
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From reading the thread discussing this unit, these still appear to have flaws and QA issues.
marchnz said:
From reading the thread discussing this unit, these still appear to have flaws and QA issues.
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Don't they all?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hi all,
Could you please recommend me a head unit? Something modern, well-specced, and good quality. My google-fu has revealed plenty of comparisons of Android Auto-capable head units (whichi don't run android) or just pages such as aliexpress - many of those models are years old now and it's next to impossible to know whether they're any good.
Looking through this forum doesn't really seem to help unless I know what to look for, it's mainly all model- or ROM-specific. A sticky'd list of head units with a comparison of features would be great, if it exists. If it doesn't exist, I'd be happy to start putting one together :good: Could be really handy for newcomers
Is there a place out there keeping their finger on the pulse of new releases in this space that I can take a look at?
Thanks
As your Googling revealed things change fast and new models come out as part supplies change so a sticky wouldn't be good for much except maybe a historical record. There's no one place I know of that keeps track of what's coming down the pipes apart from sites like XDA, 4PDA and some car enthusiast sites where someone happens to spot something and reports it. I found info on new units before they were released by visiting the manufacturer's site or their store on Aliexpress (usually has official store in the name).
As far as recommending anything I think it's too much of a personal choice that depends on too many factors to do. I'll just start by saying if you're looking for good quality stick with the name brands. All these Chinese units have issues with assembly and software if you're willing to play you can have lots of fun with them fixing things and modifying. Some are better built than others, the sub $100 MTK units are not comparable to the PX6 at 3x the price but that doesn't stop either from suddenly dying from poor quality components or soldering. Also Google has a habit of messing things up with their service updates.
What you get with these HU is a custom fit and features you won't find on any other HU. The things to look for is at least 2GB of RAM and 16GB of storage for a basic low cost unit. What you really want is 4GB/32GB Rockchip SoC with an MTC MCU. You get a 64bit multi core processor with lots of RAM and an MCU that has better support from the manufacturers and the community.
The official Android auto works with a limited number of phones. There is an unleashed version as well as other apps with similar function. Many of the Android HU have the ability to do the same thing and also can work with Carplay (may need a dongle). Screen mirroring has its issues. Personally I think you're better off to have your phone provide an internet connection and bluetooth handle the communications.