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My persistent knocking on the doors of mobile phone providers within a 30 mile radius from my home finally paid off today when I finally managed to get my hands on a HD2 (hoorah).
I have always said that there is no way on earth I would spend over £500 ona sim free device without first seeing one in the metal and testing it out. No one in their right mind buys a house or car without first seeing it and, if appropriate, testing it out before buying.
First Impressions:
Even though I had seen a dummy earlier, the size of the screen does come as a bit of a surprise. However this is a very thin device which makes the whole thing just about manageable. It is not quite as in-your-face, size-wise, as, say, the Toshiba TG01. Be aware though that there is absolutely a shedload of real screen estate to play with on the HD2.
Build quality looked very good. The back plate looks like a well machined item. I tweaked the keys around a little but did not experience the "wobble" that others have talked about.
The screen is a fingerprint magnet of the first order; however it is nothing a quick blow of hot, moist breath and a clean handkerchief can't cure very quickly. Maybe an appropriate screen protector might be helpful; however I cannot confirm.
Something else that was immediately apparent was just how fast the device is. Apps opened near instantaneously and the device was simply a joy to use.
The camera was rather interesting: as a brand new device, straight out of the box and booted up for the first time, the camera screen started up with a pink hue across the whole of the screen. I immediately thought of the pink issue that a lot of people have spoken about. However after about a minute the camera settled down and the pinkish hue cleared up.
The guy from o2 said that he had seen this start-up effect on all of the cameras he had seen/used/demonstrated/sold to date so I am assuming that this is "feature" of the device.
All the shots I took (indoors in artificial light) came out just fine and the quality, to my eyes, was good as far as camera's on mobile phones go.
I did not find the lack of a hardware camera button a problem. The fact is I actually preferred the on-screen shutter button; seemed pretty cool and effective.
The Keyboard:
I opened up MS Word and moved onto the dreaded keyboard.
Within a couple of seconds I could clearly see why some of you have given up on this device and sent it back. The keyboard out of the box is awful and stringing 2 words together was a real pain. However switch off the T9 function and the keyboard is transformed into something very very useful.
Yes, you have to be quite accurate with your fingers. I found I got the best results using my fingertips pointing near vertically downwards rather than horizontal and flat. The former method presents a narrow minimal area of the finger to the keyboard, resulting in reasonable/acceptable accuracy, while the latter method simply created problems, pulling in adjacent letters to the ones I wanted to use on nearly every occasion.
The key here is that, given I had no more than a half hour with the device, I found that I made no more mistakes with this keyboard, at no greater frequency, than I do now with my resistive keyboard on my TYTN, which I have had for over 3 years.
I did not get a chance to test the voice, email or sms functions as I did not have the time. Therefore I am unable to verify whether the problems others have mentioned were present in the device I tested or not.
Availability:
It is difficult to work out what the strategy is with the supply of this device. The 3 o2 shops I went into had only received 2 devices each! 2 out of the 3 shops had sold them on within a day and the 3rd, where I did my test, had 1 left.
None of the shops could confirm for certain when their next supplies would be in or how many handsets they would get. Each one suggested contacting them on a regular basis to see what the position is.
For me, given that this is a device in demand at probably the most advantageous marketing point in the year, i.e. the run up to Christmas, I cannot understand why there is so much uncertainty around the supply chain.
What Next?:
Now that I have finally laid my hands on the device, the key question I had to address was this; given all the horror stories on here about various problems, etc, was it sensible for me to become another early adopter given that this device will be used for business purposes where reliability is essential.
The decision I have made is, given the work currently being undertaken by C'monex and others coupled with custom roms already in the pipeline, plus the hints and tips thread in this forum, on balance I think it is just about worth the risk me jumping in and purchasing a device.
I was at this point 3 years ago when I first purchased my TyTN. To this day I consider it an absolute miracle that the device did not end its days under a hammer within the first week of ownership, so appallingly awful was that device straight out of the box.
Over time, and with a lot of people doing sterling work on here, things turned around to the point where I have a device that is rock solid stable, reliable and good to use.
I would strongly suggest that if anyone is considering buying this device, they find a live model to play with first before making their minds up. I can see why the keyboard could be a real deal breaker although I intend to purchase a capacitive stylus to get around some of the problems I foresee with non-finger friendly winmobile applications.
Conclusion:
This device looks very promising and yes, it does have issues, based on the reports we have seen here on XDA. You need to play with one first before making a decision to buy.
The keyboard is very different to a resistive one and requires patience, perseverance and good technique to get the best out of it.
I did not have enough time to have an exhaustive, comprehensive play with the device; however I have seen enough to determine that, on balance, and based on emerging developments here on XDA, I could live with it. Besides my current device is now long in the tooth and needs replacing.
The only fear I have is that once I have paid out my hard earned cash for this device, HTC bring out an Android HD2-like device using the snapdragon processor, which is really what I would prefer.
My order for a HD2 plus a HTC Hero goes in next week, depending on stock availability in the UK.
I hope this quick walk through is helpful to those who are trying to make a decision on this device, one way or another.
WB
Thanks WB for this excellent overview - certainly more down to earth and focused than most reviewers who don't know what to expect in HTC phones.
I too had a similar experience to your TYTN when I purchased my Polaris. Mine nearly took a high dive from the 30th floor of an office block when I got it. However in February this year, I installed epimazzo's KhanX ROM and didn't touch it again given how stable and usable everything was.
I've been watching the Leo forum closely for the past two weeks and I can see some of the top cookers hovering and waiting to pounce (oh, Hard SPL, wherefore art thou?). This device has so much potential and is so exciting that I purchased mine sight unseen.
The bugs and wrinkles are...ahem...par for the course if you buy a HTC phone these days. To my mind, there is nothing that appears insurmountable to the ROM chefs (respect). As I said, the phone has monstrous potential - seems like a solid GPS implementation plus the accelerometer, compass and proximity sensor. Bingo!
I had the option of going for any of the Samsung Omnia II, the Acer F1 and the Toshi phones. But none of those has the depth of support found here on xda (only iPhone comes close in community support). HTC owes many people on this forum in a big way - without it, probably you and I would have sh_tcanned HTC years ago...
And for someone who is always fiddling with my phone every day, the possibility of squeezing performance out of this thing is half the fun. May not suit those who need a perfect phone OOTB (like the iPhone for example).
He says confidently before he hits the SMS lag problem...
Update
Well, since I wrote the short review above and read XDA LEO forums end-to-end so my initial thoughts on jumping in and buying the device faded a little. Part of the problem was the sheer volume of negative noise coming from a number of people on these forums plus the fact that I have been here before with the Tytn, taking a year before I had a device I could both trust and like.
Those painful memories made me think long and hard about jumping in and doing the deed. What I needed to do was to get a sense of perspective and balance which was proving difficult to find on XDA. Also being able to lay hands on a device at will to play with was proving very difficult as the limited stocks becoming available were flying off the shelves as fast as they were coming in. This was at odds with all the negativity I was picking up here.
Now don't get me wrong, I am not knocking people. Those that were brave enough to post their honest views about the device, albeit negative ones, did me a huge favour, despite the fact that most of them faced massive hostility from the masses. What this meant for me was that instead of going into any decision rosy eyed I knew that if I bought into the HD2 world there would be problems to overcome, over and above the usual tweaks that one does because its windows, don't you know?!
Some sense of balance was found via the following polls, which I found to be invaluable:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=598900&highlight=polls (severity of grid display)
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=595655&highlight=poll (weird touch-screen behaviour)
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=591011&highlight=poll (earpiece and voice quality)
http://forum.xda-developers.com/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=2075 (HD2 speaker quality)
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=592375&highlight=poll (in search of balance).
So, approaching the festive season with the family nagging me to tell them what I wanted for Xmas, I rang a supplier, talked through all the known issues with them, which they were aware of. However the rate of returns on HD2's to them was so small as to be infinitesimal which meant one of 2 things:
- People were buying the device and either liking it or could live with it or
- The supplier wasn't telling me the truth (highly unlikely as I have been using them for a while now).
They were happy enough to agree to take the device back and return my funds if I did not like it either under the 7 day distance selling rules in the UK or by me ringing them up and indicating my preference.
Went back to the family, gave them the news and......a brand new HD2 landed in my sack on Xmas day via Santa Claus. What an amazing guy he is! Someone should offer to have his children for him.
Broke the box open last night, ie Xmas night and despite my anticipation, took time out to charge it up properly. Time spent now conditioning the battery correctly equals solid battery performance later down the line.
Tackled the beast in anger today. It is true to say that in the metal, this is a beautiful piece of engineering. Build quality on my version at least is excellent with none of the wobbly keys and ill fitting screen problems reported by others being noticable.
Went through setting up the device as I want it (yes, its been a long day and I have stopped now), made a complete backup immediately as my master backup, then installed tips no 8, 44, 46, 58 from the hints and tips thread and made another backup, separate from the original. This way if anything goes wrong I can simply roll back to the last successful change.
Points Worth Commenting On:
Keyboard:
The keyboard needs a degree of accuracy to use it successfully. I did not find the sensitivity out of the box an issue at all. Where I had to be absolutely accurate was in keying in my sim unlock code into the phone. Got that wrong too many times but practice will make perfect.
An even greater level of accuracy is required when trying to put ticks into selection boxes, e.g when installing Memmaid. This can prove frustrating as can the process of copying and pasting. I am sure that the capacitive stylus coming out of HTC will help with this "problem".
For me the keyboard works best without T9 switched on. However for sheer speed the Swype keyboard which I have installed is the way to go. Another version of this board (SlideIt) is readily available and I will be moving to that asap as Swype is NOT free-ware nor, as I have just found out, not officially released yet for the windows platform.
Weather Animations:
The weather animations are very good, just the sort of thing a chap needs to gain bragging rights down at the local pub. I have already seen most of the animations today due to the readily changing weather conditions we have had where we live.
Back Cover:
There is a serious but amusing thread on here where someone could not get their back cover off. Having already been through that thread I was not looking forward to my experience. However I can report that as long as you follow the instructions in the guide the cover is pretty easy to take off and put back on.
Overall First Impressions:
There is a hell of a lot to like about the HD2. There are things that I felt needed to change to suit me better. I have altered SMS to show in traditional mode rather than conversation mode as this works best for me.
Twitter and Facebook are of no use to me so these have not been configured.
I have yet to work out how to get the built-in picture viewer to pick up and show my pictures on the external SD card and there are a whole host of other things I have yet to get done. However day 1 has gone very very well indeed.
I will add to this post as I get to know the device a little better. In the meantime I am off to read the full manual to pick up on what else I need to know.
WB
PS: For those interested I am running Rom 1.48 straight out of the box. Not bothered with the SMS fix as I have not had any issues with SMS sending and receiving so far.
I am being meticulous about killing off apps not required but running in the background via the task manager. Also been straight onto the notification queue lock-up problem by installing Memmaid to sort that out.
Need to find a way of making sure that the X button really does kill off these open apps to save valuable memory space.
PPS: Really annoying niggle is after 10 goes I have not been able to put on the HTC screen protector properly. No matter how hard I try, even using a large cardboard piece to smooth it out, I can't get all the air bubbles out. I really want to use the protector but as it stands, I might have to take the risk and ditch it unless someone can pass on a full-proof method for putting the damned thing on properly.
I have never ever had this problem before in all the years I have had of devices that needed their screens protecting.
More updates soon.
WB
Regarding keyboard I recommend to use Swype or Finger Keyboard.
its a support forum 99% of posts here will be problems
wacky.banana said:
The only fear I have is that once I have paid out my hard earned cash for this device, HTC bring out an Android HD2-like device using the snapdragon processor, which is really what I would prefer.
My order for a HD2 plus a HTC Hero goes in next week, depending on stock availability in the UK.
I hope this quick walk through is helpful to those who are trying to make a decision on this device, one way or another.
WB
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Click to collapse
Honestly I'd recommend waiting for the Xperia X10 if you want an android device. The HD2 in its current state is not something I'd want to use for everyday business use; it has still got some minor problems that needs addressing.
Toss3 said:
Honestly I'd recommend waiting for the Xperia X10 if you want an android device. The HD2 in its current state is not something I'd want to use for everyday business use; it has still got some minor problems that needs addressing.
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have they sorted the speed of the x10 out yet, last videos i saw it was terrible
sharpey said:
have they sorted the speed of the x10 out yet, last videos i saw it was terrible
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It's still in its beta stages so the software is bound to get faster once they've sorted out the minor bugs. I really doubt Sony would release it in its current state, but considering HTC released a device without proper texting support and awful call quality I can't say I'd be surprised.
Next year HTC brings out the HTC Bravo, it's an Android Phone (V. 2.0) with the snapdragon 1GHz and total similar to the HD2 instead of the 3,7" AMOLED (more than 16 mio colors) display .
I think it's the same as the hd2 just the android version of it
regards
HTC BRAVO: http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/08/htc-bravo-pictured-more-lucidly/
sharpey said:
its a support forum 99% of posts here will be problems
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Click to collapse
@ sharpey,
Hey fella, merry Xmas to you. If you have been on here as long as I have you would know that XDA is not a support forum but a Developers forum, hence the name XDA-Developers. The conversation and posts used to be about cooked roms, hacking, development of tools and utilities, etc and pushing the technical envelope, NOT coping with people who won't or can't RTFM (read the manual).
It's only in recent times that new users have attempted to change the format and shape of the forum and it has now become, in part, a support forum because people like me like to help other people. Only problem is the noise generated by this process tends to obscure the real nuggets of good information one is looking for before investing in a device like this, e.g, SPL availability and associated development, availability of cooked roms, flexibility of the device from a hacking perspective, and so on. This is what I meant when I said I was looking for a balanced view on here but found it difficult to find what I was looking for although the polls I have linked to also provided useful info.
@ all others,
This thread is just a running update of the journey I went through until I got a HD2. I know there are a lot of people out there who are holding back on buying one as they are confused by how much information/misinformation there is out there on the HD2. All I am doing is sharing my experience in the hope that it helps someone.
Right now the device is 2 days old and I am Just loving it. :. Yes, there are some minor annoyances like the lack of a sent indicator when sms messages are sent; however I trust the device and if I want to be sure I simply look in my sent box to confirm the message is gone.
If you are considering buying a HD2, read this thread plus all the links, read the independent 3rd party reviews then go play with one in the metal, and, if you are happy, go buy one and ENJOY!!
WB
This might help people eyeing the Z4 Tablet, but are unsure of what positives and negatives there are. Of course, this is highly subjective, but this is my list. It's influenced by my personal competing choices which were the Samsung Galaxy Tab S2 and the Google Pixel C. I'm happy I chose the Sony Xperia Z4 Tablet.
Pros:
Fast SoC (Qualcomm Snapdragon 810)
This is Qualcomm's 2015 flagship SoC and from what I've experienced it's really fast. Android flies. It also runs 64-bit, which it should anyway, but for example Samsung's Tab S2 doesn't. I don't know about the graphical performance as I don't really play games.
'Compatible' SoC (Qualcomm Snapdragon 810)
This opens up the way for optimized-for-specific-SoC apps (like RSBrowser, which is Snapdragon-optimized and significantly faster than stock Chrome/Chromium) and CyanogenMod support, that need documentation/drivers. For example, Samsung's (faster) Exynos SoC's are a black box for developers, which makes things like this very hard and has the result of devs abandoning it.
Big internal storage (32GB)
32GB is plenty of storage for apps and a reasonable amount of media. But that can be stored on the microSD.
microSD capability (up to 128GB)
This is a major benefit for a media consumption device like this, which many devices don't have.
Good multitasking
I could have mentioned 3GB RAM, but that doesn't tell the whole story. Multitasking on the Z4 is pretty darn good. It swtiches quickly and is generally very snappy. My Samsung Galaxy S6 with 3GB RAM has pretty bad RAM management in comparison. I'm still trying to find a custom kernel for it that keeps the phone snappy after 2 days.
Huge screen solution, high ppi on a big screen
2560x1600, 299ppi. On a big 10.1 inch screen. This is wonderful.
16:10 aspect ratio screen
Which is good for widescreen content like movies and dSLR photo's. 16:10 also beats 16:9 for me because of the added screen height.
Screen has natural, accurate colors
Very subjective, but compared to several other screens I've found this one to be superior.
Front facing stereo speakers
A rare thing among Android devices. Good design choice.
Lightweight (~390gr), thin
It's pleasantly light to hold.
NFC, notification LED, GPS, vibration motor
These features are often overlooked, but are important to me. I use NFC for LastPass, the (multicolor!) LED with LightFlow to see what exactly is asking my attention when in standby, vibration to still be notified when I want the tablet to be silent and GPS for the occasional navigation need or social app check-in.
Qualcomm Quick Charge 2.0
Another nice bonus, which isn't mentioned much. Quick Charge makes a major difference to charging speed. Needs a compatible charger though.
Big battery (6000mAh)
Can't yet say battery life is amazing, because I'm using it a lot and crank the screen brightness up quite high so don't know what to expect. Reviewers seem to agree it's great though.
Bootloader can be unlocked (so the road is open for rooting)
No waiting for an exploit if you're OK with going this route. Just follow Sony's instructions and you'll have root in no time.
Marshmallow announced
Should come January '16 I heard, but these things always get delayed :| At least it's coming.
AOSP commitment by Sony
Sony's Open Device Program is nice and all, but their sources are a bit troublesome and don't seem to produce functional ROMs. Still, Sony's stance on it might bode well for future things.
Water-/dustproof
I don't care much myself, but it's a nice bonus. At least it takes some worries away (dropping liquids on it, no fear for dust particles between the screen and the glass).
Keyboard dock option
Nice for when you want to use a physical keyboard that is fully compatible and is also attachable. I use a 3rd party BT keyboard, but I'm constantly fighting with fixing incompatible button mapping stuff.
Important root-specific things that work
These things are not guaranteed to work or be available on any rooted device, and are pretty major in adding possibilities, so I consider them pros to be working on the Z4T:
Xposed Framework
For most people anyway (Some are having issues). This is a thing to be happy about, because if it didn't, chances are it wouldn't be fixed anytime soon because of the small user/dev base. Xposed opens up many possibilities which really enhance a device. To me it's a selling point.
Native KCAL support
Another Qualcomm exclusive. I believe this is actually fully present on the stock ROM, but not fully controllable (limited to RGB in the Settings menu). KCAL support enables you to tweak various image parameters, like RGB, saturation and contrast with a tool like Color Control or Kernel Adiutor. It's pretty great and you don't see it often.
Cons:
SoC might overheat in extreme circumstances
Haven't had any problems myself, and I stress the tablet pretty hard, but I've read some reports about issues. At least of a guy bringing the tablet to the beach. It's mostly just people saying it's fine, even with heavy usage.
Speakers are lacking in bass
No surprise, but it's still a letdown.
Bad low-light camera performance, no flash
Picture quality in low light is disturbingly bad. Having no flash makes this unusable in those situations. Not a big deal for me personally, I don't take pics with a tablet.
Screen isn't that bright
Compared to several others, the screen isn't that bright and needs to be cranked up pretty much, even indoors. Outdoors, this is a problem. The big screen reflectiveness doesn't help either. Indoors it fine, it just that the needed high brightness level eats battery.
Screen lacks deep blacks
This is compared to (S)AMOLED, specifically. Those screen blacks are amazing and darker colors are also good for battery on those screens. IPS screens just don't have that. Using dark themes won't help battery life on the Z4T, it may even be worse with them.
Stock charger isn't Quick Charge 2.0
Come on, Sony.
No hardware navigation buttons
This is a real PITA for me because this requires Android's soft keys / navigation bar which take up valuable screen space. This is especially problematic in landscape mode on this 16:10 ratio in which you'll want every screen height you can get. Fortunately, this can be overcome by tools like GMD Full Screen Immersive Mode (with full screen keyboard typing restrictions so you'll have to switch back to type :S) combined with All in One Gestures, both of which don't reqquire root. Better yet is a build.prop edit that declares to Android the tablet has hardware buttons, removing the soft keys entirely, while keeping the ability to type anywhere. I navigate using All in One Gestures, because GMD GestureControl sometimes stops working. Which isn't very nice when you don't have navigation keys
No user-land root exploit (yet)
Because of this, you'll need to unlock the bootloader to gain root access. Which will destroy your TA partition, which will in turn remove Sony-proprietary functions. Which I personally don't use and don't see much use for anyway. Also, unlocked bootloader can't be undone without Sony noticing, so as a non-EU citizen you'll possibly have warranty issues.
Small user/dev community
Not many people own a Z4 Tablet (bad availability in the US and it's expensive) and because of this, there's next to no development for it. Luckily, we have @AndroPlus who's made a custom kernel and ported TWRP (which unfortunately has a bug that keeps us from restoring the system partition from a backup). @DHGE worked on root, which made it possible in the end I think. Still, custom ROMs would be nice. Also, if you run into device-specific problems, there's not many others that can help, because you're either the only one or one of very few who have that problem.
It's expensive
The price is very high and a bit hard to justify.
What I miss:
Wireless charging
This is sooo convenient. It also spares the precious MicroUSB port, which is used for charging, data-transfer, USB-OTG and adb/fastboot. If it breaks, you're done.
Removable battery
Batteries do not have eternal life, so eventually it will be completely dead. Which will render the tablet dead as well.
Any thoughts, questions, additions or critique is welcome.
jelbo said:
[*]Small user/dev community
Not many people own a Z4 Tablet (bad availability in the US and it's expensive) and because of this, there's next to no development for it. Luckily, we have @AndroPlus who's made a custom kernel and ported TWRP (which unfortunately had a bug that keeps us from restoring the system partition from a backup). @DHGE worked on root, which made it possible in the end I think. Still, custom ROMs would be nice. Also, if you run into device-specific problems, there's not many others that can help, because you're either the only one or one of very few that have that problem.
.
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Hello jelbo. Let's discuss about it. First of all, our tablet is not alone with some sort of problem. z3+ and z5 devices are the same story. I don't really understand how can we have aosp sources but not to have its rom. So what the problem, some building problem, or is it true that aosp roms works without working sensors? People give different feedback. Did you try some aosp rom? I just want to cook aosp rom in ubuntu.
alex009988 said:
Hello jelbo. Let's discuss about it. First of all, our tablet is not alone with some sort of problem. z3+ and z5 devices are the same story.
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Click to collapse
Yes, they're similar. Which actually makes me think about a positive point as development for those devices can also benefit Z4T owners. For example @[NUT]'s efforts may eventually reach us, or when an Xperia user-land exploit is found, it will likely be shared among different devices.
I don't really understand how can we have aosp sources but not to have its rom. So what the problem, some building problem, or is it true that aosp roms works without working sensors? People give different feedback. Did you try some aosp rom? I just want to cook aosp rom in ubuntu.
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Click to collapse
I'm not too sure about the reasons, but what I've seen is that 1) the Sony sources are/have been a bit buggy/messy 2) not many people compile ROMs from it (I've only seen 2 XDA users and the FXP Team).
I haven't yet dared to flash any AOSP build because I've been too busy on getting stock rooted to my liking and troubleshooting my Xposed issues and I don't want to interrupt that. It seems to be quite easy to flash ROMs though, it's either a TWRP flashable .zip, Flashtool flashable .tft or fastboot flashable .bin files.
I'm also curious about the mixed reports about 'sensor stuff not working' and 'everything works fine' on Sony-sourced AOSP builds, but so far no-one has answered my or your questions about it. Seems we'll have too find out ourselves at some point Best leave that part of questions and discussion in their respective threads to keep things organized.
Nice summary, thanks for the effort; its clear and concise.
jelbo said:
it's either a TWRP flashable .zip,
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I think free xperia team jeer at us cause twrp has a serious bug and it can't flash any roms for the time being whereas we can see exactly .zips at their site.
Interesting, had they even tested themselves what they uploaded
jelbo said:
Yes, they're similar. Which actually makes me think about a positive point as development for those devices can also benefit Z4T owners. For example @[NUT]'s efforts may eventually reach us, or when an Xperia user-land exploit is found, it will likely be shared among different devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've put XZDualRecovery on 'feature freeze' for 2.8 well over a year ago, because it needs some work to keep it working on the ever changing Android eco-system. As a consequence, I also stopped adding devices to the supported devices list. For XZDR 2.9 things will change and I will start adding devices again, remember that I am just on my own, from time to time I have a helper but they generally drop out after a while and I'm on my own again after that... I have a busy real life and a very busy job, which consumes most of my energy, leaving only little amounts of it for use on the XZDR development unfortunately... and I have big plans with it which I'd rather deploy sooner then later.
As security features increase, so do the difficulties to keep XZDR working properly... For the Z3+/Z4/Z5/M4 Aqua it is dm-verity, which throws a tantrum once the system partition is modified, which in turn causes a reboot (and with that a bootloop). This behavior has hampered the Stock Based custom ROM development and made it generally impossible to root the device...
A backup-ta with a built-in root exploit (similar to the XZDR installer) to allow a backup of the TA partition would kick-start the development for these models. People don't mind unlocking their devices but do mind losing their warranty on a 500-700 euro device... so most of them wait for the possibility to backup their TA partition.
Oh, and to actually participate in this topic:
I have to say the Z4 tablet takes my fancy and tics just about all the boxes of things I like about tablets... I own a Xperia Tablet Z, well, the misses has it now and I can 'occasionally' touch it :silly: and I have been looking for a new tablet to actually use myself
I don't have the funds to purchase a TabZ4, but I would really like to have one with the keyboard dock
[NUT] said:
Oh, and to actually participate in this topic:
I have to say the Z4 tablet takes my fancy and tics just about all the boxes of things I like about tablets... I own a Xperia Tablet Z, well, the misses has it now and I can 'occasionally' touch it :silly: and I have been looking for a new tablet to actually use myself
I don't have the funds to purchase a TabZ4, but I would really like to have one with the keyboard dock
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Hello. Thanks for participating our thread. Tab Z4 is a great device with cool hardware, but it is less developed in comparison with Samsung to my regret. All we want for this moment are a fix of bug for twrp, problem with mounting the system, and some customs roms. And the very big dream is cyanogenmod of course
@jelbo, where in NL do you live? Did you root your TabZ4 yet?
---------- Post added at 02:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:26 PM ----------
alex009988 said:
Hello. Thanks for participating our thread. Tab Z4 is a great device with cool hardware, but it is less developed in comparison with Samsung to my regret. All we want for this moment are a fix of bug for twrp, problem with mounting the system, and some customs roms. And the very big dream is cyanogenmod of course
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Well, I am assuming that custom ROM's will come as soon as there is a viable way to flash them
I wonder why @AndroPlus wasn't able to fix the TWRP mount issues yet...
alex009988 said:
Hello. Thanks for participating our thread. Tab Z4 is a great device with cool hardware, but it is less developed in comparison with Samsung to my regret. All we want for this moment are a fix of bug for twrp, problem with mounting the system, and some customs roms. And the very big dream is cyanogenmod of course
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I'm pretty confident CM will support the 'karin' at some point. Many other Sony phones/tablets are officially supported.
[NUT] said:
@jelbo, where in NL do you live? Did you root your TabZ4 yet?
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I'll tell you in a PM Yeah, I've unlocked my bootloader and rooted it. I couldn't restrain myself anymore It's so much better now. Just some littles gripes left that'll be fixed sooner or later.
Well, I am assuming that custom ROM's will come as soon as there is a viable way to flash them
I wonder why @AndroPlus wasn't able to fix the TWRP mount issues yet...
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Time restraints, who knows? He did post a v11 version of the kernel some days ago though @dl12345 who greatly helped him getting TWRP to work, may be able to fix it, but he hasn't been around. You can follow some technical details about it in the AndroPlusKernel thread.
It's just /system/ that cannot be restored though. Which is bad, but you can get out of a bad situation pretty quickly with restoring /data/ and using Helium/Titanium Backup, I think. Unless you really fried the ROM and need your /system/ back, then you can only go the flashtool route now
jelbo said:
I'm pretty confident CM will support the 'karin' at some point. Many other Sony phones/tablets are officially supported.
I'll tell you in a PM Yeah, I've unlocked my bootloader and rooted it. I couldn't restrain myself anymore It's so much better now. Just some littles gripes left that'll be fixed sooner or later.
Time restraints, who knows? He did post a v11 version of the kernel some days ago though @dl12345 who greatly helped him getting TWRP to work, may be able to fix it, but he hasn't been around. You can follow some technical details about it in the AndroPlusKernel thread.
It's just /system/ that cannot be restored though. Which is bad, but you can get out of a bad situation pretty quickly with restoring /data/ and using Helium/Titanium Backup, I think. Unless you really fried the ROM and need your /system/ back, then you can only go the flashtool route now
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* [NUT] pokes @AndroPlus to join this conversation.
Due to lack of time on my side to read the entire topic, what exactly fails when restoring system?
@jelbo, do you have his kernel installed (a.k.a. have you unlocked your bootloader)?
[NUT] said:
* [NUT] pokes @AndroPlus to join this conversation.
Due to lack of time on my side to read the entire topic, what exactly fails when restoring system?
@jelbo, do you have his kernel installed (a.k.a. have you unlocked your bootloader)?
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Yes and yes. Basically anyone here who's rooted their tablet is running AndoPlusKernel and have manually unlocked their bootloader.
jelbo said:
Yes and yes. Basically anyone here who's rooted their tablet is running AndoPlusKernel and have manually unlocked their bootloader.
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I see, that un-complicates testing a lot
Gotta say... amazing tablet all together and the first device that i havent seen the mighty snapdragon handwarmer throttle from heat in. I kept roasting it for about 3 hours with simpleplanes and PC minecraft (boardwalk app) and it didnt lose any performance just got a bit hot on the back middle. I find the battery life to be good enough for a day of being on and off watching youtube and occasional gaming but i do keep screen brightness on auto at all times and features such as BT NFC and GPS off. Also a app that i think the tablet should have from factory: OGYoutube, you can have floating resizeable youtube above other apps or play in background or with screen off and download in mp4 or mp3.
I'd picked up a Z4T about 4 months ago to replace two different devices, my aging and finally dead cell phone (I hung on to my old Samsung S3 for way too long), and my laptop, which is a still functional but extraordinarily heavy beast of a 17" macbook - about 6 years old on its own as well. What can I say, they were still working so why buy new?
I have to say I'm very glad I made the purchase. I picked up a SBH52 handset to make phone calls more convenient, and splurged on the sony docking kb for the added ruggedness of using it as a "case" - which it does like a champ. Calls are nice and clear, and I've had pretty much no troubles - aside from some occasional static when using the handset (which I owe to the handset itself being a bit flaky). Even with an unlocked BL, remote play on my PS4 still works, only the Bravia screen mirroring to my TV is kaput. It serves very well as a laptop for those like me that need something lightweight for overnight trips, let with a big enough screen to be able to remote desktop troubleshoot back to the main office.
Would this replace every computer I own? Obviously not. I still own a high end desktop for videos, games, and intense word processing (the sony kb is just a bit small if you were attempting to write a novel for example); and my PS4 for console games; but for light end use and for traveling, it's almost the perfect laptop replacement. And as a combo cellphone laptop? I couldn't ask for better. My overall data usage has also dropped, because I'm using far more wireless on this device (I want to make sure it's connected for the stability if nothing else), but I can always drop out to a cell connection if no wireless is available - or if I don't feel like paying the stupid prices at the hotel the convention is being held at.
Now for the Cons:
I've really only got two, one of which was mentioned here. The damn thing is not cheap. Since I live in the states, the LTE version is not available directly. You need to pick up an international version from amazon or another reputable source. Hence the reason I have a kb with extra non-english symbols on it. Not that I mind, but it confuses some people when they look at it. When I picked mine up, the tablet kb and handset ran about $900 US all together. so not something you want to accidentally brick, or drop, or leave behind in a restaurant....
The second one is convenience. Given that it is a tablet - and a fairly large one, most people aren't going to go the phone replacement route like I did. You can't exactly just slip it into your pants pocket. And since the handset is BT, you can't exactly leave the tablet in the car and just use the handset inside most restaurants either (unless you park really close to the building). I'll often leave mine at home if all I do is run to the store for a dozen eggs or something, just because it's easier not to pack it up. But then half an hour of being unconnected and out of touch doesn't bother me - it might bother some though.
So there you have it, a much less technical review, from yet another satisfied user.
begalund said:
I'd picked up a Z4T about 4 months ago to replace two different devices, my aging and finally dead cell phone (I hung on to my old Samsung S3 for way too long), and my laptop, which is a still functional but extraordinarily heavy beast of a 17" macbook - about 6 years old on its own as well. What can I say, they were still working so why buy new?
I have to say I'm very glad I made the purchase. I picked up a SBH52 handset to make phone calls more convenient, and splurged on the sony docking kb for the added ruggedness of using it as a "case" - which it does like a champ. Calls are nice and clear, and I've had pretty much no troubles - aside from some occasional static when using the handset (which I owe to the handset itself being a bit flaky). Even with an unlocked BL, remote play on my PS4 still works, only the Bravia screen mirroring to my TV is kaput. It serves very well as a laptop for those like me that need something lightweight for overnight trips, let with a big enough screen to be able to remote desktop troubleshoot back to the main office.
Would this replace every computer I own? Obviously not. I still own a high end desktop for videos, games, and intense word processing (the sony kb is just a bit small if you were attempting to write a novel for example); and my PS4 for console games; but for light end use and for traveling, it's almost the perfect laptop replacement. And as a combo cellphone laptop? I couldn't ask for better. My overall data usage has also dropped, because I'm using far more wireless on this device (I want to make sure it's connected for the stability if nothing else), but I can always drop out to a cell connection if no wireless is available - or if I don't feel like paying the stupid prices at the hotel the convention is being held at.
Now for the Cons:
I've really only got two, one of which was mentioned here. The damn thing is not cheap. Since I live in the states, the LTE version is not available directly. You need to pick up an international version from amazon or another reputable source. Hence the reason I have a kb with extra non-english symbols on it. Not that I mind, but it confuses some people when they look at it. When I picked mine up, the tablet kb and handset ran about $900 US all together. so not something you want to accidentally brick, or drop, or leave behind in a restaurant....
The second one is convenience. Given that it is a tablet - and a fairly large one, most people aren't going to go the phone replacement route like I did. You can't exactly just slip it into your pants pocket. And since the handset is BT, you can't exactly leave the tablet in the car and just use the handset inside most restaurants either (unless you park really close to the building). I'll often leave mine at home if all I do is run to the store for a dozen eggs or something, just because it's easier not to pack it up. But then half an hour of being unconnected and out of touch doesn't bother me - it might bother some though.
So there you have it, a much less technical review, from yet another satisfied user.
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Thanks for sharing
So I am coming to this device from the Nvidia Shield Tablet and I love the device thus far for all of the positive reasons mentioned. Also with respect to screen brightness listed as a con my own experience is that it is much better than what I was coming from.
The battery life is truly great with this device and my needs are small when it comes to the development area. I simply need it to be rooted because I prefer to remove all of googles garbage that I don't use and rooting and bootloader unlock was very simple.
All in all I am really liking this device, had it about 10 days now. I have the LTE version but only because I may use it at some point.
Overall very pleased with the device so far.
ThePhoneGeek said:
So I am coming to this device from the Nvidia Shield Tablet and I love the device thus far for all of the positive reasons mentioned. Also with respect to screen brightness listed as a con my own experience is that it is much better than what I was coming from.
The battery life is truly great with this device and my needs are small when it comes to the development area. I simply need it to be rooted because I prefer to remove all of googles garbage that I don't use and rooting and bootloader unlock was very simple.
All in all I am really liking this device, had it about 10 days now. I have the LTE version but only because I may use it at some point.
Overall very pleased with the device so far.
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I was seriously considering the Shield because of the dev scene and the price. What made you switch?
jelbo said:
I was seriously considering the Shield because of the dev scene and the price. What made you switch?
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The device itself just isn't very efficient on battery and I needed something with a slightly larger screen. It does ok but it's really designed more as a gaming device IMO which wasn't what I needed. Also the specs are a bit outdated now.
I noticed in the op that he said being a non eu customer when unlocking bootloader they will notice. Im an eu user, does this mean that they wont notice if I try claim warranty after bootloader unlock? I havent unlocked yet but I was getting slow WiFi and disconnections. I really want root but im not sure about this WiFi issue I set the WiFi to turn off at sleep and it seems better also the issues are caused less im concerned what would you guys do? ive sent it off to Sony once already they said nothing was wrong with wifi. Can someone help me decide? Much appreciated, many thanks.
As mentioned in another thread, Lenovo quietly refreshed the Tab 3 Pro with 4GB RAM, a newer Intel m5 processor, and 64GB storage, FWIW. Stacking it up against the Tab 3 Plus (3GB RAM, Snapdragon 8-core, 32GB), so far a lot is speculation or anecdata.
My main questions, to put the TL;DR at the top:
How does the Plus perform out of the box, before doing any XDA magic on it? Have the audio sync issues been fixed? A Lenovo rep has been quoted saying they have been fixed.
How do these two CPUs compare? I've seen speculation that Android and/or certain apps may not be as well optimized for Intel chips, even if the m5 is otherwise more capable.
I'm strongly considering one of these two, probably the Pro. Most people, just shopping for a good tablet, will probably go with the Plus. It's currently $200 cheaper (40%), and that price point for the display and speaker quality, along with dat battery, is unquestionably a good deal. The Plus has some OOBE issues: A/V sync (possibly fixed), encryption lag, some questionable display "enhancements." But, it also has at least one dev here at XDA who has fixed all of the above and provided root, at least for the WiFi only model available in the US.
I've only had credible feedback from two different people regarding the new Pro, but word is performance is solid. Both people had the old 2GB Pro long enough to try out, and found it barely usable due to encryption lag and low RAM, and both say the new Pro is not the fastest tablet they've ever used, but has no real issues. It's probably underperforming for its hardware, but the hardware is strong enough you won't notice. Which is good, because it may never have dev support here, or not until the price drops significantly (though who knows, XDA has surprised me before).
What it probably comes down to is whether you want that projector. The projector isn't all you get for $200 - there are also small spec bumps across the board, and double the onboard storage - but if you don't have a realistic use for the projector, it would be hard to justify the extra cost. The real world performance difference between the Pro and Plus is probably not large, and may even fall in the Plus's favor if some apps have trouble with the Intel CPU (not at all verified). For me, the projector looks like it will make a serviceable bedroom TV, and probably a more comfortable solution than any of my options for getting a flatscreen in my room. The 480p will probably be inadequate for throwing comic books up on the wall (and certainly not on par with that 2HD screen), but I would give it a try.
For me, the bedroom TV prospect is one of the things pushing me over that "Do I really need a new tablet..." line. My Nook HD+ used to get a lot of use, but has been collecting dust for 2-3 years in favor of a good desktop and smartphone, and a Kindle Paperwhite taking over book duty. Now, is it not getting used because it's old and slow, or is it not getting used because I don't have much use for it?
Feedback on the new Pro is sparse, so if you have one in your hands, please let us know about it.
Taosaur said:
A Lenovo rep has been quoted saying they have been fixed.
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Where did you see this?
kayakyakr said:
Where did you see this?
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In the aforementioned thread:
Klvn88 said:
Was talking to a Lenovo Sales Rep on their online chat system about the audio sync issue and she was saying they have "received information that all issues have been fixed." I asked her to be specific about the audio sync issue and she confirmed they were told the audio sync issue has been fixed. Any idea if this is true or was she just saying what she thought I wanted to hear?
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Also in the comments of a recent Amazon review, someone stating he was not having these issues on a newly purchased Plus, though I don't know if the problem was universal. Again, nothing solid, and I would love to hear from others with a stock Plus.
Taosaur said:
In the aforementioned thread:
Also in the comments of a recent Amazon review, someone stating he was not having these issues on a newly purchased Plus, though I don't know if the problem was universal. Again, nothing solid, and I would love to hear from others with a stock Plus.
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I wouldn't trust either of those sources until we start to see OTA updates coming out from Lenovo fixing the issues. The Amazon user is not a power user while the different arms of Lenovo don't seem to know what the other is doing.
kayakyakr said:
I wouldn't trust either of those sources until we start to see OTA updates coming out from Lenovo fixing the issues. The Amazon user is not a power user while the different arms of Lenovo don't seem to know what the other is doing.
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Yep, that's why I'm asking. All the info on Amazon (regarding these two devices) is pretty useless.
Is it normal for there to be such limited reviews/information for Lenovo Tablets?! Really want to buy it, but just want to know more! haha.
There are a decent number of YouTube reviews of the previous Pro, and a couple non-English ones for this model, but Lenovo made zero publicity about the new model and didn't even give it a new name. Here's some info I got from someone on YouTube, for what it's worth:
Taosaur: I'm hoping the spec bump on the new model gets around some of the performance issues.
YouTuber: can confirm. I actually bought the new version to test it out! Loved it so much that that I sold my iPad lmao. No lag at all really
Reply
Taosaur: Thanks for the feedback! It doesn't seem like Lenovo's much interested in people knowing the new model exists. Do you ever pull out the projector? I've been surprised how positive the feedback has been on a pretty dim 480p projector.
YouTuber: Yes I do! It's very great to seeing movies on it rather than the screen because of the size. Especially because I have a big white wall in my bedroom. The one issue I've come across with this tablet is that every battery capacity app states I have 4300 MAH battery. Less than half of 10200... however I recently learned I'm not the only one experiencing this and the battery capacity thing seems to only be a glitch. I get around 8-9 hours of screen on time with about an hour of projector use included in that so it's still pretty good
Taosaur: I don't suppose you've tried the projector with comic books? I'm guessing the resolution wouldn't make it a great experience, and the 2HD screen would be better regardless, but I'm sure I'll try it if I end up pulling the trigger. Any idea if the Hoopla Digital app works on this tablet? It's a an app for borrowing digital comics and other media with a library card. It's not compatible with my current tablet running CyanogenMod Nougat.
YouTuber: I just tested a comic and it seems to work fine. I'm sure the projector would be fine with comic books in the pitch black for sure. I just tested that app for ya and it opens just fine. I don't have a hoopla account though so I didn't get past the login screen.
I gotta say he projector is really nice for movie watching. One thing I gotta mention is... The blacks in the display aren't that good... The blacks have a blueish tone to it. I wish it was an amoled display. Still the colors are quite vibrant. Also the screen gets REALLY bright and also gets REALLY dim. Great for daytime use and night use. I tried the pixel c and it wasn't dim enough so it hurt my eyes at night
But that makes the projector all the nicer to use. After using the projector to watch the walking dead, it's hard to go back to the screen for movie watching haha. Seems so small in comparison. It's really amazing having it in such a small package. Especially as the projector is totally fanless and never needs replacement bulbs.
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And I did pull the trigger a couple days ago, so I should have the Pro sometime tomorrow :fingers-crossed: I'll let you know what I think.
Taosaur said:
There are a decent number of YouTube reviews of the previous Pro, and a couple non-English ones for this model, but Lenovo made zero publicity about the new model and didn't even give it a new name. Here's some info I got from someone on YouTube, for what it's worth:
And I did pull the trigger a couple days ago, so I should have the Pro sometime tomorrow :fingers-crossed: I'll let you know what I think.
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Awesome, thanks for posting that convo between you and the YouTuber. Would definitely like to hear you own experience with it.. I likely would just get the Plus version, as I don't see myself using the projector enough to justify the significantly higher price tag here in Canada. Hoping the 3gb ram is good enough for me to just use it as a media tablet, won't be a whole lot of multi-tasking. :fingers-crossed:
I have the 4gb pro and its really good. I had the 2gb pro and it was terrible due to the RAM issue. The 4gb has no such issues. I am still considering returning and getting the 3gb 10.1 inch plus version though. It's $200 less, I dont need the projector, 3gb of ram should be enough to solve the issues of the 2gb pro and 4gb is probably overkill on the new pro. A few things are holding me back from making the change.
The audio sync issue is obviously a huge concern since I use the tablet for media consumption exclusively. Also, there is not a lot of info on how much different the 2 majorly different cpu's are intel vs snapdragon. While the intel cpu is better on paper as its been mentioned the snapdragon has much better overall android optimization due to being so ubiquitous. Also can anyone confirm if the 3gb snapdragon has quick charge? The intel version does and its fanstastic.
My Pro showed up Monday, and I do like the projector. It may end up my most-used feature, though the screen is also gorgeous. I hang the thing over my bed and project on the opposite wall, which gives at least a 55" image, less sharp but easier on the eyes at night than a backlit LCD. Zen Pinball is my go-to game on a tablet, and it plays great - the stand comes in handy. I wouldn't try to play any detailed games with the projector, but old-school emulators would probably be great, and again, the 2HD display is excellent.
There have been bugs:
I had a one-off sound glitch with the pinball game, getting really distorted sound, but going into Dolby Atmos and switching to game mode fixed it.
"Request failed" toasts kept popping up last night while I was watching Hulu. No clue what they were, but they didn't interrupt playback.
So far I've had no luck pairing the tablet with my phone over bluetooth. They see each other, but give "wrong pin" errors, despite showing the same pin. Both connect fine to my headphones and speaker.
FYI, there are more credible reports showing up on Amazon that a software update has corrected the Plus' A/V sync and "flickering" issues.
mike240se said:
I have the 4gb pro and its really good. I had the 2gb pro and it was terrible due to the RAM issue. The 4gb has no such issues. I am still considering returning and getting the 3gb 10.1 inch plus version though. It's $200 less, I dont need the projector, 3gb of ram should be enough to solve the issues of the 2gb pro and 4gb is probably overkill on the new pro. A few things are holding me back from making the change.
The audio sync issue is obviously a huge concern since I use the tablet for media consumption exclusively. Also, there is not a lot of info on how much different the 2 majorly different cpu's are intel vs snapdragon. While the intel cpu is better on paper as its been mentioned the snapdragon has much better overall android optimization due to being so ubiquitous. Also can anyone confirm if the 3gb snapdragon has quick charge? The intel version does and its fanstastic.
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Have you had any issues with random apps not working? I recently purchased it and cannot get snapchat to work on it for the life of me.
I just bought the plus, I haven't had any audio sync issues thus far and am pretty happy with the overall build quality and performance thus far.
xerogabe106 said:
Have you had any issues with random apps not working? I recently purchased it and cannot get snapchat to work on it for the life of me.
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Everything I've tried on it has worked well. I still get that "request failed" pop up at random times. I can only confirm that Snapchat installs and opens - I'm not about to make an account.
Taosaur said:
Everything I've tried on it has worked well. I still get that "request failed" pop up at random times. I can only confirm that Snapchat installs and opens - I'm not about to make an account.
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It opens after a fresh install, I can get to the login/create account screen. But after login it just crashes and crashes when I startup as well.
So I have been talking with some friends, and I am going to go ahead with a KickStarter for a modular phone.
Now before you say: "That has been tried", you are right. However, Project Ara and Phonebloks were just TOO out there. The engineers that thought those projects were a good idea need to be beat -- but I digress.
What I have in mind is a little more like a PC. You have a case (shell), you have RAM, and CPU/GPU, power supply (battery)
In the shell, you get the cameras, touch sensor, screen, choice of single or dual batteries.
The only components that will be replaceable are:
* CPU (which has the GPU and modem)
* NAND
* Battery
Basically the idea is that you pick a "shell" that you like:
* 5" / 5.5" / 6" (OLED / LCD)
* Camera choices [insert here]
* Single or dual battery
* Single or dual SIM
etc
CPU/GPU
* SD820
* SD835
* SD845
NAND
* 16gig
* 32gig
* 64gig
* 128gig
These are just examples... The purpose of this post is to get ideas on what YOU want. There can only be so many choices, or manufacturing would be a nightmare.
The important part is that you would be able to UPGRADE. Say a SD855 comes out, you don't throw / sell your whole phone, you just pull out the CPU/GPU module and replace it.
So, give me some ideas as to what should be in the shell. IP67 / IP68 will probably not be possible. I don't know enough to say one way or the other right now, but assume it isn't.
Again, this is JUST hardware, don't worry about the software side of things. I will outline what I have in mind, in the next post, along with how security will be handled. Suffice it to say, I will take what I have learned about POSSIBLE holes, and close them. From the factory, the phone will be the more secure than the iPhone, but more importantly, if YOU want to control that security, you will be able to. More to come when I finish crafting up the software / security post.
-- Brian
So, software and security, how can you eat your cake and have it too?
By default, the phone will come locked. It will use an RSA key that is kept under lock and key. There will be no traditional download mode, or recovery. There will be no adb, no fastboot.
When you boot the phone, the only thing you will get is the OS. So let's say a kernel exploit comes along, or something like Janus that allows you to modify a signed app -- there is no way to install it because you won't even have a terminal. All thanks to SELinux. But OK, someone finds some exploit to modify system -- it is write protected at the hardware level.
I have had a LOT of time to think about how to seal every last hole in Andorid, but, I will be consulting with actual security experts to make sure nothing is missed. I mean look at the Switch, if you have the right hardware you can use attack vectors that you might not think of from a "closed box" mentality -- I want to avoid those as well.
So, how do you get control of YOUR phone?
When the phone boots, you will be required to input a PIN, password, key (I am not sure about the technical details on this one yet) that will give you access to an unlock port. In the future, if you want to unlock your phone, you will go to a website just like you do to unlock carrier free LG phones, and download a file that is unique to your phone. This will NOT void your warranty. You will then use this file, along with your (pin, password, key) to unlock your phone.
It will be done this way for a couple of reasons. Before getting the file, you will be made aware that your phone's security is now YOUR responsibility. If you leave it unlocked, then anyone that has physical access to it can install pretty much whatever they want.
Once unlocked, you will have access at the PBL level. If you just want root, you can flash a vendor supported version of TWRP (no point in reinventing the wheel), you will then be able to flash a vendor supported kernel that will allow you to modify system. Viola -- you have root.
So how do you secure your phone again? You will have the ability to install your own RSA key. There will be three modes that the phone will run in:
* Fully secure stock from factory
* Fully unlocked
* Relocked with YOUR key.
This last mode will have two modes:
* Hybrid - all the firmware is still verified by the factory key, but boot and system are verified with your key.
* Developer - all the firmware needs to be signed with your key.
Tools will be provided to make this very easy, but at the end of the day, if you have an unlocked phone, security is up to you.
So how about OTA updates? They will only be available on a factory locked phone. Once the phone is unlocked, you will have to download updates yourself. If you have installed your own keys, then you will be able to sign the updates. This allows you to keep your phone locked. If you have a fully unlocked phone, then you can just flash the unsigned updates.
By updates, so far I have been referring to just the firmware, not the OS. So what about the OS?
From the factory, the phone will ship with bone stock Android. As long as you don't install another ROM, you will be able to update your OS as well.
So what if you want to install another ROM? Have at it, but you can no longer take OS updates -- but you can take firmware updates.
So what about third party ROMs? It is always a bit of a pain to get a ROM running a new phone because vendors don't want to help -- we will. We will have a development community run by our programmers for the specific purpose of helping to get a ROM ported.
So you don't want to run Android? Fine, again, you will be able to have access all the way from the PBL. You can't modify the PBL -- that is on the CPU, but the first thing that the PBL loads is the XBL, and you will be able to run whatever you want.
So how do we get this past the FCC? Modem firmware will be the one no no. Sorry, that is just life. Take it up with the FCC. The thing is, you will have no reason to modify, or install different modem firmware. From the factory, all bands will be available, so you gain nothing.
If all of this sounded to technical, then I can sum it up with -- the phone will be yours. Do as little or as much as you want with it. Just know that from the factory, it will be the most secure phone ever made -- but also, even if you modify it, YOU can KEEP it secure.
-- Brian
Reserved for FAQ
runningnak3d said:
snip-- Brian
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So what do we do, donate a certain amount of money? If that's the case, is it fair to say this would need about 100k to get going? I know China can manufacture things really cheap. Though I think there is much more too it.
Also I want to see a quad DAC. Dual speakers, Dolby Atmos. Refresh rate of 120 like the Razer phone. 4gb of ram. SD card slot. Official XDA Android with XDA labs baked in.
Sent from my LG V20 using XDA Labs
I am willing to donate too ☺
BROKEN1981 said:
So what do we do, donate a certain amount of money? If that's the case, is it fair to say this would need about 100k to get going? I know China can manufacture things really cheap. Though I think there is much more too it.
Also I want to see a quad DAC. Dual speakers, Dolby Atmos. Refresh rate of 120 like the Razer phone. 4gb of ram. SD card slot. Official XDA Android with XDA labs baked in.
Sent from my LG V20 using XDA Labs
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Click to collapse
I don't want any app baked into my OS that is not mandatory for the phone to work.
Going along the lines of what has been done on the v20, including a 3.5mm jack would be sweet. So many phones are getting rid of them and they are still a very useful port. Also a nice dac and amp of some sort to output great audio would be awesome. If possible, up the capacity of the battery from the v20's 3200 mAh. It just isn't enough in some cases.
toastyp said:
Going along the lines of what has been done on the v20, including a 3.5mm jack would be sweet. So many phones are getting rid of them and they are still a very useful port. Also a nice dac and amp of some sort to output great audio would be awesome. If possible, up the capacity of the battery from the v20's 3200 mAh. It just isn't enough in some cases.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thankfully, a DAC implies that there is an analog audio jack. Otherwise, what are you converting? I mean, it's not technically a rule because you could do something insane (and proprietary) with the USB-C port, but why?
I would like to see a quad DAC and 120hz screen. A back power button with the fingerprint scanner would also be nice
Since most people here are going to be V20 owners, I think the V20 chassis is a solid starting point. Ignoring all the hypothetically changeable hardware components, what we have left to consider are a screen, fingerprint reader, A/V options, port connectivity, camera, and aesthetic design considerations.
Personally, I would just clone the V20 and make the main and secondary screens OLED. I think the curved corners that have become the rage on newer phones are stupid (We spent over a decade getting away from rounded corners in UI design, and now people want them physically on their screens? FOH), but the screen must be 18:9 if those are going to make an appearance. Some people might prefer the 3.5mm jack on top, but it has no practical effect on me either way. Stereo speakers could be a consideration, but I don't use phone speakers for music playback.
Apart from that, I have a hard time thinking of other hardware features or predicting what hardware features may catch on in the future.
VZW compatibility
Implementing the volume rocker on the back instead of the side is a must. It'd add a touch of originality again since LG decided to join the bandwagon
Edit: and adding an extra hardware button we can map. Like how you can map the Bixby button on the galaxies
Always wondered why know one attempted to do this years ago, upgradable like a pc.
But i think you can go one step further and give a choice of screens also OLED or LCD since you say you have the software side covered then implementing different screens but the same size would be easy.
in the shell i guess a dedicated dac, ear phone jack,
Would this be modular as In DIY upgradable nand/cpu or would it be made to order.
I see alot of brickwalls as you cannot simply order a snapdragon 835 online in single digits....so im guessing this is made to order to your preference.
There a companys where you can do this but the quantity is in the hundreds where you make to order slap your logo on.
Not really sure what the aim is?
Zyker019 said:
Implementing the volume rocker on the back instead of the side is a must. It'd add a touch of originality again since LG decided to join the bandwagon
Edit: and adding an extra hardware button we can map. Like how you can map the Bixby button on the galaxies
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I would never buy a device with volume on the back. It makes no sense.
Sent from my LG V20 using XDA Labs
Software post updated, and I will update the FAQ, and hardware sections ASAP. To address some of the posts so far, yes, it WILL have a 3.5mm analog jack. I need to do some research, but I may add the DAC as a replaceable part.
@goulash2011 Yea, purchasing quantity is something I am working on.
This is a build to order phone, but it will be up (or downgradeable).
-- Brian
Umm well, I am not sure why this didn't turn up in my first searches for modular phones: https://www.fairphone.com/en/our-goals/design/
If you read their site, it sound like I ripped this post straight from it. I didn't. They have the exact idea, but it appears that they are having some issues with demand (you have to get on a waiting list). Also, the modules haven't been updated in a while. If nothing else, it proves it can be done, I am going to contact them and try to find out when they plan on (or if they do) releasing an SD835 module, and for that matter a 2k screen.
They actually went above and beyond what I had in mind for modules... if you have the time, their site is a good read. They are also looking to be very open with the software, but it doesn't look like they care as much about security.
-- Brian
This project sounds really cool and I have got a few ideas for the cameras sensors:
OV12890 - 1.55 µm / 12MP / 240fps /1080p / 60fps 4K 1/2.3"
This is an Omnivison sensor (probably cheaper than an IMX) which is basically a carbon copy of the IMX 378 with bumped up fps in video. I know these are FPS in perfect hardware conditions, but with a snapdragon 835 and native support for HDR this camera may be one of the best in a smartphone from a hardware perspective.
OS08A10 - 2 µm / 8MP / 120fps 1080p / 60fps 4K / 1/2"
I know this is a bit of a stretch, the sensor is very large in the smartphone industry but i am sure you can make space for it. Just imagine coupled with a low aperture lens the low light shots and videos from this thing .
IMX230 - 1.12 µm / 21MP / 60fps 1080p / 30fps 4K / 1/2.4"
This Sony IMX sensor may not seem too impressive but the photos are packed with detail especially when paired with Googles HDR algorithm, from a software standpoint this can be the perfect ratio of pixel size to MP, so you can sacrifice megapixels although still retain the same detail with a 12MP image with virtually no noise. While the pictures are very nice, videos are mostly just above average with nothing too fancy.
All of these sensors are not really mainstream so prices should not be to bad.
I think you could also make dual camera setups where people can buy basically two sensors in special enclosure, a nice combination would be the OV12890 and the IMX 230 with the OV12890 being the main sensor doing video and primary camera functions while IMX is 230 more in the back end which can enhance the resolution, de-noise images, add more data in RAW shots, maybe be used as a telephoto or wide angle sensor and of course portrait mode.
Another dual setup could be simply two OV12890 sensors with again the second sensor adding portrait capabilities, more RAW data, ect... but a key feature could be true 480fps 1080p slo motion I know this may sound stupid but when the primary sensor takes its first frame the secondary sensor takes its frame from the interval between the time it takes to get to the second frame to be taken which essentially doubles the frames per second, this may be possible but the snapdragon 835 although it may not be able to support this as it is a very stressful workload, you could do what Sony did with XZ Premium with short bursts of slo mo or instead of rendering the image live, it can be done at the end where the software stitches the video together. This can also work in favor for HDR stitching with both sensors taking burst photos giving double the output of a conventional sensor.
That was a very insightful post, and all of it doable. However, I have to find out what problems fairphone is running into:
* Noise on the bus?
* General manufacturing problems
* Money problems? Can't generate enough cash to buy in large enough quantity?
* Patent issues?
My main beef is still software. My G4 runs Oreo just fine, but nooooo LG wants me to buy a V30 if I want Oreo. That is horsesh**
-- Brian
runningnak3d said:
Umm well, I am not sure why this didn't turn up in my first searches for modular phones: https://www.fairphone.com/en/our-goals/design/
If you read their site, it sound like I ripped this post straight from it. I didn't. They have the exact idea, but it appears that they are having some issues with demand (you have to get on a waiting list). Also, the modules haven't been updated in a while. If nothing else, it proves it can be done, I am going to contact them and try to find out when they plan on (or if they do) releasing an SD835 module, and for that matter a 2k screen.
They actually went above and beyond what I had in mind for modules... if you have the time, their site is a good read. They are also looking to be very open with the software, but it doesn't look like they care as much about security.
-- Brian
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think I see the problem. The mods are a bit expensive, not too many people would be interested, meaning hardly any demand. To keep cost down, you need to involve China. Look at the growing pains of 1+.
I hate to be so negative, but upgradable phones will always be a dead project.
Sent from my LG V20 using XDA Labs
BROKEN1981 said:
I think I see the problem. The mods are a bit expensive, not too many people would be interested, meaning hardly any demand. To keep cost down, you need to involve China. Look at the growing pains of 1+.
I hate to be so negative, but upgradable phones will always be a dead project.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not being negative.. Just setting a marketing reality. Which I completely agree with. It's to far and beyond for the current market of things.
Hey Everyone,
I recently purchased a brand new sealed 64GB Pixel C for $275. I have ALWAYS wanted one but never really needed a tablet until recently. My kindle crapped out, and I have been listening to some audiobooks and I wanted a way to combine the 2. I also plan on maybe watching some movies from my Plex server, some Netflix, and that's probably it...oh and some comics as well....
I had some general questions for those of you who have had a Pixel C for some time.
1. I know there are some screen issues, and I believe based on the serial (i'll confirm when it arrives in two days) mine seems to be made in 2016 sometime, and even though I am in the US, it's a EU version.... Do the problems seem to be on all C's or just a specific run of them?
2. If you were me, and only wanted a tablet for ebooks/audio books and of course some media, but no apps that are super intensive, would you just upgrade from the 6.0 to the 8.0 that's official (or 7.0 if it's good?) , or install a custom rom. If the latter, any recommendations from personal experience?
3. Since it's 2020 and this tablet is coming up on almost 5 years....do you feel I overpaid? This is a completely irrelevant question, I just REALLY REALLY wanted one, I hate Samsung and wanted something with as close to a pure google experience like my Pixel phone. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. I have seen them selling used in good shape in the upper 100's range, and most are 32GB.....
4. Anything else I should know that I don't see jumping out at me in the forums that you would pass along to a new C owner?
Thanks everyone in advance!
Hank
Hank_Rearden said:
Hey Everyone,
I recently purchased a brand new sealed 64GB Pixel C for $275. I have ALWAYS wanted one but never really needed a tablet until recently. My kindle crapped out, and I have been listening to some audiobooks and I wanted a way to combine the 2. I also plan on maybe watching some movies from my Plex server, some Netflix, and that's probably it...oh and some comics as well....
I had some general questions for those of you who have had a Pixel C for some time.
1. I know there are some screen issues, and I believe based on the serial (i'll confirm when it arrives in two days) mine seems to be made in 2016 sometime, and even though I am in the US, it's a EU version.... Do the problems seem to be on all C's or just a specific run of them?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am not aware of better or worse serial numbers. I assume later is better? Mine has image retention / ghosting & a purple shift in white balance but I never got the half screen failure or other issues.
2. If you were me, and only wanted a tablet for ebooks/audio books and of course some media, but no apps that are super intensive, would you just upgrade from the 6.0 to the 8.0 that's official (or 7.0 if it's good?) , or install a custom rom. If the latter, any recommendations from personal experience?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I recommend either Pixel Experience 10 or LineageOS 17 if you are at all comfortable with flashing. ROMs are little more work. But they offer the latest patches, some new features, some specific fixes for our aging hardware, and because you have to install TWRP first you have that safety net for when things go wrong. I also happen to really like Android 10 for what that's worth. You might have to use Magisk Hide to get some apps working, and you probably have to sideload Netflix from APKmirror but it should work just fine.
If you don't mind how it works out of the box, and you don't care for fiddling with it, and you aren't concerned with the screen lock bug, then stock is perfectly fine. Some people say 7 was better than 8 because of some video driver bug that broke a few Unity based games. I have zero idea if this was fixed in any of the ROMs.
3. Since it's 2020 and this tablet is coming up on almost 5 years....do you feel I overpaid? This is a completely irrelevant question, I just REALLY REALLY wanted one, I hate Samsung and wanted something with as close to a pure google experience like my Pixel phone. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. I have seen them selling used in good shape in the upper 100's range, and most are 32GB.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am considering selling my Galaxy Tab S6, even though it is nicer in so many ways, because I just disagree with so many Samsung UX decisions. So I continue to use the Pixel C and I hope you like yours. I am a little envious you found a good condition 64GB one! There are countless little touches where the Pixel C does what I expect and my Samsung devices do not. Using an USB audio device? Pixel C can use it for music and also to make VoIP calls. Believe it or not many Samsungs cannot route 'phone' type audio over USB. Music only! Using a mouse? Open Chrome, right-click on a link. Notice that beautiful options menu that pops up? Try the same thing on a Samsung and notice it is just Android back function. Back to the Pixel C, try to middle-click on a link and notice it opens in a new tab in the background. Just like on desktop Chrome! Then, try with a Samsung and notice middle-click is the same as Android home function. Samsung just decided to break mousing and I hate it. Even things like display scaling work well on the Pixel C and badly on Samsung devices. Want everything to be very small? That's easy to do, and basically everything scales (except the nav bar, but there is a fix for that). On my Samsungs some parts of the UI scale and other parts don't. You end with comically unmatched icons and other elements like the notification shade. I really thought DeX could fix these issues for me and it didn't, but that is a different story. I like Samsung features but by golly they suck at the basics IMO.
4. Anything else I should know that I don't see jumping out at me in the forums that you would pass along to a new C owner?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not everything in Google-land is good. The Pixel C was never trouble free and still isn't with even the best ROMs. 3GB of RAM was too little for a 'productivity device' in 2015 and obviously still isn't enough (your use-case should be fine however). The storage speed is slow, it is prone to occassional jank (probably combination slow storage & low RAM), and if the battery isn't perfectly healthy you will experience bad CPU throttling (this is fixed in ROMs and in my case was a night and day difference). You are already aware of the screen problems. The headphone jack quality is not good, and the bluetooth range for headsets is about 5 ft (I am not joking, it's astonishingly bad!). There used to be many WiFi reception complaints but I think it was fixed long ago. Reception is on the weak end however. The touch screen is sensitive to interference and you can get ghost touches when using a low quality charger (YMMV on that one, my hardware might be faulty). Last thing that comes to mind is that occassionally, and seemingly randomly, your lock screen PIN will just... stop working. If you are on stock software with a locked bootloader then all you can do is factory reset!! This alone is a great reason to go with ROMs.
Thanks everyone in advance!
Hank
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good luck and welcome to the community!
locuturus said:
I am not aware of better or worse serial numbers. I assume later is better? Mine has image retention / ghosting & a purple shift in white balance but I never got the half screen failure or other issues.
I recommend either Pixel Experience 10 or LineageOS 17 if you are at all comfortable with flashing. ROMs are little more work. But they offer the latest patches, some new features, some specific fixes for our aging hardware, and because you have to install TWRP first you have that safety net for when things go wrong. I also happen to really like Android 10 for what that's worth. You might have to use Magisk Hide to get some apps working, and you probably have to sideload Netflix from APKmirror but it should work just fine.
If you don't mind how it works out of the box, and you don't care for fiddling with it, and you aren't concerned with the screen lock bug, then stock is perfectly fine. Some people say 7 was better than 8 because of some video driver bug that broke a few Unity based games. I have zero idea if this was fixed in any of the ROMs.
I am considering selling my Galaxy Tab S6, even though it is nicer in so many ways, because I just disagree with so many Samsung UX decisions. So I continue to use the Pixel C and I hope you like yours. I am a little envious you found a good condition 64GB one! There are countless little touches where the Pixel C does what I expect and my Samsung devices do not. Using an USB audio device? Pixel C can use it for music and also to make VoIP calls. Believe it or not many Samsungs cannot route 'phone' type audio over USB. Music only! Using a mouse? Open Chrome, right-click on a link. Notice that beautiful options menu that pops up? Try the same thing on a Samsung and notice it is just Android back function. Back to the Pixel C, try to middle-click on a link and notice it opens in a new tab in the background. Just like on desktop Chrome! Then, try with a Samsung and notice middle-click is the same as Android home function. Samsung just decided to break mousing and I hate it. Even things like display scaling work well on the Pixel C and badly on Samsung devices. Want everything to be very small? That's easy to do, and basically everything scales (except the nav bar, but there is a fix for that). On my Samsungs some parts of the UI scale and other parts don't. You end with comically unmatched icons and other elements like the notification shade. I really thought DeX could fix these issues for me and it didn't, but that is a different story. I like Samsung features but by golly they suck at the basics IMO.
Not everything in Google-land is good. The Pixel C was never trouble free and still isn't with even the best ROMs. 3GB of RAM was too little for a 'productivity device' in 2015 and obviously still isn't enough (your use-case should be fine however). The storage speed is slow, it is prone to occassional jank (probably combination slow storage & low RAM), and if the battery isn't perfectly healthy you will experience bad CPU throttling (this is fixed in ROMs and in my case was a night and day difference). You are already aware of the screen problems. The headphone jack quality is not good, and the bluetooth range for headsets is about 5 ft (I am not joking, it's astonishingly bad!). There used to be many WiFi reception complaints but I think it was fixed long ago. Reception is on the weak end however. The touch screen is sensitive to interference and you can get ghost touches when using a low quality charger (YMMV on that one, my hardware might be faulty). Last thing that comes to mind is that occassionally, and seemingly randomly, your lock screen PIN will just... stop working. If you are on stock software with a locked bootloader then all you can do is factory reset!! This alone is a great reason to go with ROMs.
Good luck and welcome to the community!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you so much for the detailed response. I am glad I am not the only one who feels that way about the Samsung tablets. I ALMOST bought an S4, then I ALMOST bought an S5E, but just don't like the way they do Android. I checked my tracking and the tablet comes today! So I think what I will do is just upgrade to the most recent official, leave the device lock off for now as I don't plan on going anywhere with the C, and see how it goes. I have dabbled in ROMS in the past for a lot of phones I have had through the years, so I assume this is not too far different as far as the process. The Lineage ROM seems to be a little better for the C from reading some of the known issues, but I will take a look at them after I assess the performance of the C. I really don't want to have the unit hit 70% then completely crap the bed on the performance side....
The Bluetooth range is sad to hear considering i JUST ordered the Sony WH-1000XM3 headphones. They will be here either Friday or Saturday. If i need to hear something beyond the range of it sitting close to me I'll just use my phone.
I'll report how things are going once I receive it, and thanks again for the detailed response. It has put me at ease!
Cheers
Hank
It came and was exactly as described. Did the update and now it's charging. Updated some apps and it's moving pretty well. We shall see what happens when I get more stuff loaded on there, but I will say it's better than I expected. Such beautiful hardware.....
1. I know there are some screen issues, and I believe based on the serial (i'll confirm when it arrives in two days) mine seems to be made in 2016 sometime, and even though I am in the US, it's a EU version.... Do the problems seem to be on all C's or just a specific run of them?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I bought an used Pixel C with its keyboard and a pouch and its screen seems still fine. A Youtube video pointed the issue for its cable in the middle behind the screen panel being pressed so I thought keyboard&pouch may have prevented it.
2. If you were me, and only wanted a tablet for ebooks/audio books and of course some media, but no apps that are super intensive, would you just upgrade from the 6.0 to the 8.0 that's official (or 7.0 if it's good?) , or install a custom rom. If the latter, any recommendations from personal experience?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mine was on stock 8..1 and now is LineageOS 17 based on Android 10. Stock 8.1 seemed to work fine. I preferred some Android 10's swiping features such as swiping from left or right to go back and swiping up to go to homescreen or other running apps to buttons and black bottom bar previous versions. Netflix HD still works.
On the other hand, unlocking bootloader caused additional 30 seconds to boot with caution message and weird beep noise in boot sequence. As you might know, even when locked in setting, in recovery mode, someone could physically connect your device to another and steal files in the device. Some error messages with security warning pops up in notification so the rom might not fully support Android security features. (I have little knowledge on this.)
When its brightness set close to lowest level, screen seemed to be turned off or brightness seems a bit unstable. (Being able to set close to the mininum is still good.) BTW some of gamepad buttons mapped incorrectly (not sure it was due to LineageOS).
3. Since it's 2020 and this tablet is coming up on almost 5 years....do you feel I overpaid? This is a completely irrelevant question, I just REALLY REALLY wanted one, I hate Samsung and wanted something with as close to a pure google experience like my Pixel phone. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. I have seen them selling used in good shape in the upper 100's range, and most are 32GB.....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's display ratio is better than 16:10 from other android tablets for e-books, pdf files, comics. Someone wrote its ratio fits for two pages side by side. Among Android tablets as far as I know, there are not many with 3:2 or 4:3. Nexus 9's screen could be great but it has only 2GB ram and other flaws. Xiaomi MiPad doesn't support Netflix HD. iPads would match the need but it seems you didn't want one. What I looked for was an Android tablet which is not Samsung or Huawei and supports Netflix HD. Of course, newer APs have advantages in power consumption, better game support, weight etc. Galaxy Tab S6 lite supports S-pen which is good for pdf notetaking. I tried to write in pdf files with Xodo PDF app and Bamboo Tip stylus and it wasn't so successful. Still, I like mine.
4. Anything else I should know that I don't see jumping out at me in the forums that you would pass along to a new C owner?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its PCB is on the left side so it gets hot when running intensive apps or charging. (The bottom of the display turned a bit yellowish. Because of keyboard attached?)
USB PD laptop chargers works but the left side feels hotter compared to charging with 5V 3A chargers.
With its keyboard is good to use on lap or as a stand but it would be pricey to buy a new one.