Related
Current status, 14 January 2011:
At the moment, I stand by my original claim that you shouldn't use SBC until we all know more, but I can't state that the kernel is unilaterally safe or unsafe at this point. There are legitimate claims in this thread that holding the battery at 4.2V can cause an eventual short in the battery, which could lead to a catastrophic failure. MS and I are in touch. Once I have more skilled EE's to help me, we are going to review everything and make some recommendations. This might involve upfront testing or it might not, as dictated by what we find in our first reviews. I will try to keep this up to date, but be aware it might not move as quickly as you like.
Original Post:
Let me preface this by saying I am a degreed electrical engineer and I specialized in integrated circuit design. I am slightly out of practice, but the fundamentals don't change much. I am not an expert on batteries, but I understand the basics of their operation. I will absolutely yield to the engineering experience of people that have devoted significant portions of their careers to the field of battery design and applications. However, I don't think we have many of those people running around here.
This is a long post, as the topic material requires. If you don't read it all, you won't understand what is going on.
I started out this adventure reading this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=876590
Will this damage my battery?
This charging method doesnt damage the batteries at all. It shouldnt. Because our batteries dont even charge up to 4.2V without the tweak. They charge up to 4.2V the first charge, then drop all the way down to 4.08V or something and then does these weird short burst chargers to 4.1-4.125V. Thats why there's the rapid drop in the morning. Because your voltage is actually at 4.125V and that's not 100%. So with this tweak, the charger keeps charging until you're at 4.2V (or the maximum voltage your battery can get to) and then it trickle chargers while at that voltage. The charger itself never turns off. Thats not a bad thing. Because as you reach your actual voltage, the mA decreases. Which is why our phones will never be damaged. You ever want to know why its really easy to charge from 50-80% but the charge from 90-100% seems to take so long? Its because from 50% the mA going into the phone is in the 600's. Once it reaches 90%, the mA is around 150 and once it reaches 95% you're looking at 90mA. The phone when absolutely idle uses anywhere from 60-120mA, even when on the charger. So charging from 90% to 100% takes longer becaus the mA going into the phone isnt always higher than the mA you're losing. This is the same with charging past 100%. As you leave the phone on the charger with this tweak, you're mA will decrease from 50mA all the way down to 2mA overnight. But on the charger you're losing about 30-60mA already, so you'll never overcharge the battery, in best case scenarios, you'll just maintain the voltage of 4.2 or around 4.2V.
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Quite frankly, this explanation shows a clear lack of understanding of battery fundamentals and perhaps even the basics of electricity. So I read the thread linked in the above post and got a clearer explanation of SBC kernels.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=894880
SBC is a type of "trickle" charging. It's a full, slow, complete charge and it prevents the 10% drop that most users get when pulling the phone off the charger. This kernel performs best with an overnight charge. Some users asked questions on the safety of the SBC charging method. Ms79723 states that it slowly pushes mV into the battery and thus keeps the battery cool. SBC kernels push the battery past their normal 100% charged point, to a TRUE 100% charged battery. These kernels also charge extended batteries to their maximum and show true "on charger" voltages, which would deem these to be more accurate for checking voltages on your battery. There was and still are concerns of the SBC kernels destroying your battery, but to most people now these dont pose much concern anymore.
The issues people were bring up is that the Li-Ion batteries are charged to the point HTC set them to was for safety of the battery. Li-Ion's can be unstable at times, but Ms79723 programmed safety temperature and voltage "stops" to kill the charging is they get too high. Bad things can start to form, I said can not will, if the temperature gets above 140f and voltage gets to or past 4230mV. If the mV gets to 4230mV it can causes issues. If it gets to 4300 mV it can cause plating. People are also speculating that the SBC kernels are going to kill your battery and or shorten the life. With the price of eBay batteries now days, if the SBC kernels give you drastically ( which has been seen ) more battery life, then why not? The highest seem on the SBC kernels is 4210mV, which is under both values for issues to start.
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Now, let me explain what a trickle charger actually does. Basically, at the end of the charging cycle, you change over to a constant current source (CCS) supply. This means in a true trickle charger, IT WILL CHANGE THE VOLTAGE TO (theoretically) ANY VALUE TO MAINTAIN A CONSTANT CURRENT! That is bad for a Li-ion battery because they react poorly to being overcharged (see the end of this post for an explanation of battery charging and voltage). If you increase the supply voltage beyond the battery voltage, you are guaranteed to overcharge the battery. Check it out:
http://www.mpoweruk.com/chargers.htm#trickle
Trickle charge Trickle charging is designed to compensate for the self discharge of the battery. Continuous charge. Long term constant current charging for standby use. The charge rate varies according to the frequency of discharge. Not suitable for some battery chemistries, e.g. NiMH and Lithium, which are susceptible to damage from overcharging. In some applications the charger is designed to switch to trickle charging when the battery is fully charged.
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What about the self-discharge of our Li-ion you say? Well, Li-ions have some of the lowest internal resistances out there, so they barely discharge themselves at all.
Well, why does my battery lose about 10% everytime I unplug it using the stock charging kernels? That seems like bad engineering! It isn't. It is an engineering decision.
http://www.mpoweruk.com/lithiumS.htm#charging
Charging Lithium Batteries
Should be charged regularly.
The cell voltage is typically 4.2 Volts
Battery lasts longer with partial charges rather than full charges.
Charging to 4.1 Volts will increase the cycle life but reduces the effective cell capacity by about 10%.
Can not tolerate overcharging and hence should not be trickle charged.
Charging method: Constant Current - Constant Voltage .
Fast chargers typically operate during the constant current charging phase only when the charging current is at a maximum. They switch off at the point when the constant voltage, reducing current phase starts. At this point the battery will only be charged to about 70% of its capacity.
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The experience of battery engineers and device designers has shown them that they can ignore the top ~10% of battery capacity and dramatically increase the cycle life of the battery. That means you can charge and discharge the battery many more times before the actual capacity (power) of the battery drops to 80% of its original maximum. For most people, this is a great tradeoff. But it is not bad engineering. At the very least, it is a bad design decision for some people.
Now, you might be asking yourself why it charges so quickly to ~70% then takes forever to get to the ~90% level. The explanation given by MS79723 makes so much sense you say. Let's debunk it a little bit.
http://www.mpoweruk.com/chargers.htm#cccv
Constant-current Constant-voltage controlled charge system. Used for charging Lithium batteries which are vulnerable to damage if the upper voltage limit is exceeded. Special precautions are needed to ensure the battery is fully charged while at the same time avoiding overcharging. For this reason it is recommended that the charging method switches to constant voltage before the cell voltage reaches its upper limit.
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The charge voltage rises rapidly to the cell upper voltage limit and is subsequently maintained at that level. As the charge approaches completion the current decreases to a trickle charge. Cut off occurs when a predetermined minimum current point, which indicates a full charge, has been reached. Used for Lithium and SLA batteries. See also Lithium Batteries - Charging and Battery Manufacturing - Formation.
Note: When Fast Charging rates are specified, they usually refer to the constant current period. Depending on the cell chemistry this period could be between 60% and 80% of the time to full charge. These rates should not be extrapolated to estimate the time to fully charge the battery because the charging rate tails off quickly during the constant voltage period.
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The reason the charger switches from a constant current source (CCS) to a constant voltage source (CVS) is nestled in a few engineering details. Much like the opposite of a CCS, a CVS will (theoretically) provide any current required to maintain a constant voltage supply. Now, you can approximate the battery as if it were a simple capacitor. This is not true universally, but it works for this explanation. We have already established that Li-Ion batteries respond very poorly to overcharging. Overcharging means putting too many units of charge into the battery, which can be measured by an excessive voltage on the battery. If you have had engineering physics, you know that if you place a constant voltage in series with a capacitor, it is physically not possible for the voltage on that capacitor to ever exceed the voltage of the CVS, but it may take a long time for the capacitor to reach that voltage. So we have built in safety and much more precision, but it takes longer to charge this way. (If you want to know more about this, you should study up on the mobility of electrons and holes in solid state devices.)
By now, you should be starting to see some similarities to things you observe, but the explanations clearly do not match what others have offered. So, I have to propose a couple of conclusions. If someone doesn't want to sacrifice the last 10% of capacity on each charge cycle to increase their cycle life, they could conceivably modify the kernel to allow charging at the higher ~4.2V as a CVS. Maybe that is what MS79723 is doing, but I really highly doubt it considering how people are going for hours and only using the top 10% of their battery life. That smells like serious overcharging, which is what would occur in a true trickle charge system. So I would like some clarification from the people putting out the SBC kernels. What charging methods are they ACTUALLY using? How are they controlling them? Do they have an appreciation and deep understanding of the above principles? If they don't have good answers, I would highly recommend you discontinue use of their kernels immediately.
And one more thing folks. There are no panaceas in deployed hardware. Only engineering decisions.
Very well said, and thank you! Must of us wouldn't have even thought twice about the sbc kernels cause of what they offered. More battery life! Thus in turn it's doing more harm than good.
Folks, face it. We are basically carrying around mini mini laptops. These phones come eqquiped with 1ghz processors. Nice vibrant screens, the works. They were made to chew through battery life. If the sbc kernels are doing harm, then count me out.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
quickbird144 said:
Very well said, and thank you! Must of us wouldn't have even thought twice about the sbc kernels cause of what they offered. More battery life! Thus in turn it's doing more harm than good.
Folks, face it. We are basically carrying around mini mini laptops. These phones come eqquiped with 1ghz processors. Nice vibrant screens, the works. They were made to chew through battery life. If the sbc kernels are doing harm, then count me out.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
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I should point out that based on what the developers have said and the performance people are reporting, it seems likely that they are overcharging the batteries. However, that is all pending us getting some hard answers from the developers.
I would like to further add that no matter the method you use, if you are able to reliably charge your battery to the exact rated voltage (not give up the 10% capacity) then you are much more likely operating it safely. It is something I would personally be comfortable with, pending the input of an actual battery applications engineer. HOWEVER, I AM NOT A PE and I DO NOT HAVE A STAMP. I AM NOT YOUR EE DESIGN CONSULTANT AND IF YOU DO THAT AND IT STILL BLOWS UP, IT IS NOT MY FAULT.
Of course, the most accurate and reliable way to charge to that level would be using the scheme used in the stock kernel, but raising the maximum voltage to the rated voltage of the battery.
Just saw a thread on a few peoples evos that did have the sbc kernel, blew up. I'm now on htc's kernel #15
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
Thanks for this post, and IMO this info should be obvious to even a non-engineer. These are the reasons exactly why I have never once even been tempted to try these kernels. The reason for the charging policy set by HTC in the stock kernels is similar to the reason the bartender never fills your drink up to the rim -- it's likely to overflow and make a mess.
I should also point out that rereading my first quote of MS79723 shows a clear contradiction in his explanation. He says they are using a trickle charger, but he is describing a constant voltage scheme. MS, please clarify exactly what you guys are doing so the engineers here can provide input.
I dont deny facts are there, I dont overlook them. I will continue to use SBC kernels because I like the battery life "now" not longevity, I wont have this phone long enough for the battery to be rendered useless by charging and if I do then I wont second thought purchasing another battery.
thank you for the very informative post, im positive it answers lots of questions that many have about SBC kernels affecting battery longevity
you can tell smokers that cigarettes cause cancer but it wont stop many of them, ms has given an option to those that so desire the absolute most out of their batterys at a cost of longevity and I appreciate that.
there is still no proof of how much SBC shortens battery life or how quickly, my battery has been using SBC kernels since testing periods along with a few others and I or them have yet to experience reduced battery life. I will report if ever my battery has less than expected life and I do carry a new unopened backup for if that day comes
raiderinks said:
And one more thing folks. There are no panaceas in deployed hardware. Only engineering decisions.
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Remember the FPS fix created by the developers on these forums?
|Jason8| said:
Remember the FPS fix created by the developers on these forums?
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Charging a battery is driven by device physics, not software. You can't abstract yourself away from the fact that a battery is a fundamental device that behaves according to the laws of physics and those laws direct us to only a few safe methods for charging. Without some legitimate answers and clarifications from the developers, there is a clear and real danger that you are overcharging your battery every single day. Furthermore, heat is not the only way to tell that a battery is overcharged. That is how you tell it is overcharged to a critical failure point.
Now, I don't doubt the merits and the tremendous skill of the developers on these forums. In fact, I have been partaking in their efforts since the PPC6700. However, this is an area that ***NEEDS*** clarification because it is putting people and property at risk if done improperly.
raiderinks said:
I should also point out that rereading my first quote of MS79723 shows a clear contradiction in his explanation. He says they are using a trickle charger, but he is describing a constant voltage scheme. MS, please clarify exactly what you guys are doing so the engineers here can provide input.
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Question: if I'm using this tweaked kernel and my battery never goes above 4.2 v does that mean it is not being overcharged? Because that's what I observe. It charges to 4.2 v and stays there with 0 mA, no matter how long it is on the charger. Does this not indicate that it is working as designed?
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
you would be better suited to get a response if you PM'd him directly instead of asking him a question in a thread you started. What you say may be true seeing as you have more formal instruction on the matter however what is clearly obvious where as much command you have in the other arena you posses the exact opposite in the development cycle. Also, all of his information is posted online in his github which he clearly links to in his posts would probably be an excellent starting point to gain additional perspective before continuing your research.
raiderinks said:
I should also point out that rereading my first quote of MS79723 shows a clear contradiction in his explanation. He says they are using a trickle charger, but he is describing a constant voltage scheme. MS, please clarify exactly what you guys are doing so the engineers here can provide input.
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matt2053 said:
Question: if I'm using this tweaked kernel and my battery never goes above 4.2 v does that mean it is not being overcharged? Because that's what I observe. It charges to 4.2 v and stays there with 0 mA, no matter how long it is on the charger. Does this not indicate that it is working as designed?
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App
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That depends entirely on the reliability of the voltage measurements. If we assume that they are flawless measurements, then it would suggest that your battery is not being overcharged. However, I have no idea what kind of error exists in the onboard measurement devices, if they register false values outside of an operable range, etc.
xlGmanlx said:
you would be better suited to get a response if you PM'd him directly instead of asking him a question in a thread you started. What you say may be true seeing as you have more formal instruction on the matter however what is clearly obvious where as much command you have in the other arena you posses the exact opposite in the development cycle. Also, all of his information is posted online in his github which he clearly links to in his posts would probably be an excellent starting point to gain additional perspective before continuing your research.
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I didn't know he had linked his github page. Looking him up now.
Ok.... that was all very hi techy and you sound as if you are very educated and know what youre talking about. Means very little to me as a user. What do I look for as a user? My batt life is noticeably better on the sbc kernel. Its not over heating in the least, in fact Id go as far as to say its cooler now on the charger than when I was using the stock HTC kernel, and I have my phone on the charger a lot. Id consider myself a power user for sure. Ive been using different apps to monitor mA's and I can say that when my batt reaches full charge the mA's the batt is absorbing (0-2) are far less than what the phone is using even when just sleeping. So how could the batt be getting over charged? How would I know? I know it cant be sustaining a full charge the entire time its on the charger as long as the phone is on, simple mathematics tell me this, right? This is what Ive gotten from all that Ive read on this, please correct me where ever Im wrong and please keep in mind Im no engineer. In order for the batt to sustain damage it needs to take in more mA's than its puttng out for a period of time. Thats how it becomes "overcharged", right? So if I turn my phone with the sbc kernel off, place it on the charger and walk away from it for a day or so... that would result in over charging. Correct or no? Now if I take my phone with the sbc kernel and plug it in to the charger while on and walk away from it for a day its using more mA's than its pulling in... no over charge. No damage to my batt. Yes or no?
raiderinks said:
I should also point out that rereading my first quote of MS79723 shows a clear contradiction in his explanation. He says they are using a trickle charger, but he is describing a constant voltage scheme. MS, please clarify exactly what you guys are doing so the engineers here can provide input.
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My work is on my github and yeah there probably was a contradiction. I pretty much write everything in "one take" so I dont ever go back and re read, I write everything that I'm thinking.
I believe some of the problem is that there were several different SBC Kernals.
When my battery gets to 4200mA, it bounces between 4195-4200 but NEVER exceeds 4200.
This could be looked at the same as overclocking, plays nice with some phones, kills others.
raiderinks said:
I didn't know he had linked his github page. Looking him up now.
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did you even read the whole OP for SBC? its been there since he started
Biggest Fro said:
I believe some of the problem is that there were several different SBC Kernals.
When my battery gets to 4200mA, it bounces between 4195-4200 but NEVER exceeds 4200.
This could be looked at the same as overclocking, plays nice with some phones, kills others.
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Just went through my log for the last 8 days and same as you my highest charge is 4204 (hit this only 2 times).
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18315605/battery_history.txt
GadgetMonger said:
Ok.... that was all very hi techy and you sound as if you are very educated and know what youre talking about. Means very little to me as a user. What do I look for as a user? My batt life is noticeably better on the sbc kernel. Its not over heating in the least, in fact Id go as far as to say its cooler now on the charger than when I was using the stock HTC kernel, and I have my phone on the charger a lot. Id consider myself a power user for sure. Ive been using different apps to monitor mA's and I can say that when my batt reaches full charge the mA's the batt is absorbing (0-2) are far less than what the phone is using even when just sleeping. So how could the batt be getting over charged? How would I know? I know it cant be sustaining a full charge the entire time its on the charger as long as the phone is on, simple mathematics tell me this, right? This is what Ive gotten from all that Ive read on this, please correct me where ever Im wrong and please keep in mind Im no engineer. In order for the batt to sustain damage it needs to take in more mA's than its puttng out for a period of time. Thats how it becomes "overcharged", right? So if I turn my phone with the sbc kernel off, place it on the charger and walk away from it for a day or so... that would result in over charging. Correct or no? Now if I take my phone with the sbc kernel and plug it in to the charger while on and walk away from it for a day its using more mA's than its pulling in... no over charge. No damage to my batt. Yes or no?
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Exactly my feeling on the matter. the only short term way to damage the battery/phone is temperature. there are a lot of people who dont care about the long term affects on the battery seeing as they are fairly cheap. (most people should replace their batteries after a year anyway).
ms79723 said:
My work is on my github and yeah there probably was a contradiction. I pretty much write everything in "one take" so I dont ever go back and re read, I write everything that I'm thinking.
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Thank you very much for the work you do, i kept up with your post when you first started the project. you were VERY enthusiastic about figuring this out and bringing it to the public. personally i think we need more devs as spirited as you.
Biggest Fro said:
I believe some of the problem is that there were several different SBC Kernals.
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i believe most people and discussion is related to v7. (at least i hope)
with all this said. since immediate damage is due to temperature of the battery. wouldnt it be easy to add another failsafe in the kernel that would shut off charging if the temperature exceeded a certain amount. i'm no dev, but i wouldn't think that would be very hard. then we could let the end user decide on the risk of prolonged battery degradation.
GadgetMonger said:
Ok.... that was all very hi techy and you sound as if you are very educated and know what youre talking about. Means very little to me as a user. What do I look for as a user? My batt life is noticeably better on the sbc kernel. Its not over heating in the least, in fact Id go as far as to say its cooler now on the charger than when I was using the stock HTC kernel, and I have my phone on the charger a lot. Id consider myself a power user for sure. Ive been using different apps to monitor mA's and I can say that when my batt reaches full charge the mA's the batt is absorbing (0-2) are far less than what the phone is using even when just sleeping. So how could the batt be getting over charged? How would I know? I know it cant be sustaining a full charge the entire time its on the charger as long as the phone is on, simple mathematics tell me this, right? This is what Ive gotten from all that Ive read on this, please correct me where ever Im wrong and please keep in mind Im no engineer. In order for the batt to sustain damage it needs to take in more mA's than its puttng out for a period of time. Thats how it becomes "overcharged", right? So if I turn my phone with the sbc kernel off, place it on the charger and walk away from it for a day or so... that would result in over charging. Correct or no? Now if I take my phone with the sbc kernel and plug it in to the charger while on and walk away from it for a day its using more mA's than its pulling in... no over charge. No damage to my batt. Yes or no?
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In all of my reading I have found that it is known that holding a Li-ion battery at its max rated voltage is bad for the battery and can have similar effects as overcharging over time. Charging to that point and then stopping the charge is ok.
Hello, i have bought a new battery and it is reporting wrong temperature which is always -7 c or -8 c. I cant leave my battery in wall charger or in phone to charge, because it may overcharge since its showing a wrong temp value and explode or cause a fire. (also it chargers never report it as"charged", always red led on phone and blinks on standalone charger). I think battery has a malfunctioning thermistor, so i talked to seller and he sent me a new one, but this battery has the same problem. Is there a way to fix this? Battery is not oem , it says oem but it doesn't seem like a oem (poor printing and some differences but it has a serial and manufacturing day on it). Can you guys please help me? I don't know if i should return these batteries.
edit: i forgot to state that baterry can be charged with a external charger. Seller let me keep one of the batteries and it is functioning as expected even it has a wrong temperature reading. I suggest that someone with a battery problem should read musicfanat's post.
cizkek_ said:
Hello, i have bought a new battery and it is reporting wrong temperature which is always -7 c or -8 c. I cant leave my battery in wall charger or in phone to charge, because it may overcharge since its showing a wrong temp value and explode or cause a fire. (also it chargers never report it as"charged", always red led on phone and blinks on standalone charger). I think battery has a malfunctioning thermistor, so i talked to seller and he sent me a new one, but this battery has the same problem. Is there a way to fix this? Battery is not oem , it says oem but it doesn't seem like a oem (poor printing and some differences but it has a serial and manufacturing day on it). Can you guys please help me? I don't know if i should return these batteries.
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I've never seen a negative temp in a batterie for our phones but i think i would send them back instead.
faustino_pico said:
I've never seen a negative temp in a batterie for our phones but i think i would send them back instead.
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thank you for your reply, i have already returned one of the batteries . i better change my posts header. the one batery im keeping has no charge problem anymore, i dont know what changed but still temp problem exists, im regularly checking it with my hand :cyclops:
In fact the temperature is used only as protecting parameter - to avoid overheating (which sometimes may lead to fire). The only way used to control charge cycle for li- batteries is voltage - charger should stop at 4.2V. Usually, if the charger circuit is fine it will not let the current be so high to heat the battery to dangerous temp. So if it is the thermistor or some other electronic fault then checking temp with hand is reasonable way to control charging.
The fact the charging process finishes also points that battery itself is more or less OK.
By the way, does it provide similar working time as original battery? Is the charging time also similar?
From the other hand you should understand the risk of using battery with any issues. At least you may put the phone while charging to avoid fire in case something goes wrong. (frying pan is not the most crazy idea )
musicfanat said:
In fact the temperature is used only as protecting parameter - to avoid overheating (which sometimes may lead to fire). The only way used to control charge cycle for li- batteries is voltage - charger should stop at 4.2V. Usually, if the charger circuit is fine it will not let the current be so high to heat the battery to dangerous temp. So if it is the thermistor or some other electronic fault then checking temp with hand is reasonable way to control charging.
The fact the charging process finishes also points that battery itself is more or less OK.
By the way, does it provide similar working time as original battery? Is the charging time also similar?
From the other hand you should understand the risk of using battery with any issues. At least you may put the phone while charging to avoid fire in case something goes wrong. (frying pan is not the most crazy idea )
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It is good to know that it won't effect charging . I am using an external, wall charger for the battery and i haven't noticed any over heat problems in 10 days . It is really weird that i can't charge it with the phone, Also it is lasting really good, a minimum of 6 hours with heavy use (edge connection is always on) and 10 with normal use. I was really afraid that a wrong temparature reading could make the phone unusable.
Hello friends,
So I just got my Note 4 and i'm wondering how long should I keep it in charge for the first time? And should I drain it on first use or charge it when it's at let's say 20%??
Thanks in advance.
14 hrs, dont drain, battery should be between 20-80% before charging in normal use, fast charge off.
@zurkx
Thanks for the reply.
Are you sure about the 14 hours??? I thought Li-ion batteries don't need that long of a charging time !!!
XeroHertZ said:
@zurkxAre you sure about the 14 hours??? I thought Li-ion batteries don't need that long of a charging time !!!
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Please happily ignore that "advices".
Use Fast charge, charging takes exactly till the battery is full, that's about 1,5 hours for a full charge.
I don't see ANY sense in charging a LiIo battery "fuller than full", just impossible nonsense.
LiIo batteries suffer of aging, slightly increased by the number of charges, highly (!) increased by overheating, not of any memory effects.
There is NO "breaking in" of the Note 4s battery, amperage of fast charge doesn't come even near the safety limits, won't cause quick degradation or overheating.
So just don't listen go the immortal myths and "ancient wisdom" propagated by people not aware of the fact that battery technology indeed changed over the decades.
Chefproll said:
Please happily ignore that "advices".
Use Fast charge, charging takes exactly till the battery is full, that's about 1,5 hours for a full charge.
I don't see ANY sense in charging a LiIo battery "fuller than full", just impossible nonsense.
LiIo batteries suffer of aging, slightly increased by the number of charges, highly (!) increased by overheating, not of any memory effects.
There is NO "breaking in" of the Note 4s battery, amperage of fast charge doesn't come even near the safety limits, won't cause quick degradation or overheating.
So just don't listen go the immortal myths and "ancient wisdom" propagated by people not aware of the fact that battery technology indeed changed over the decades.
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Thanks Chefprol.I have done some research on charging the battery and have come to a conclusion that once it's charged I can use it straight away but and then drain it to 18 to 20% then charge it fully.
Chefproll said:
Please happily ignore that "advices".
Use Fast charge, charging takes exactly till the battery is full, that's about 1,5 hours for a full charge.
I don't see ANY sense in charging a LiIo battery "fuller than full", just impossible nonsense.
LiIo batteries suffer of aging, slightly increased by the number of charges, highly (!) increased by overheating, not of any memory effects.
There is NO "breaking in" of the Note 4s battery, amperage of fast charge doesn't come even near the safety limits, won't cause quick degradation or overheating.
So just don't listen go the immortal myths and "ancient wisdom" propagated by people not aware of the fact that battery technology indeed changed over the decades.
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Click to collapse
Thanks ! i tought it would be a old myth to first drain the batery and then fully load it but as far as i know its only with old phones and mp3 players and such.
hope i will get my note 4 today ! waiting for it since monday
Fast Charge is not really a useful feature for me, it just hurts the battery more in the long run
what about the thoughts on conditioning the battery?
Sent from my SM-N910C using XDA Free mobile app
There's no need to condition the battery, its a lithium battery.
If you're having battery drain issues I would suggest you clear your data cache.
ddaharu said:
what about the thoughts on conditioning the battery?
Sent from my SM-N910C using XDA Free mobile app
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this is the same guy making up stuff about the note 4 GPS being bad.
dont listen to fools.
First charge needs to be 14 hours to trickle charge the battery to full and make sure the meter is calibrated to a full battery.
fast charge does reduce battery life since it charges at higher voltage and amperage. any battery gets damaged a little by that. best is a slow charge (preferably Qi) at a normal charging voltage. Slower the better for longer battery life. if you want convenience over battery life then by all means fast charge and mess it up and replace after 2-3 years.
Who's post are you referring to?
zurkx said:
this is the same guy making up stuff about the note 4 GPS being bad.
dont listen to fools.
First charge needs to be 14 hours to trickle charge the battery to full and make sure the meter is calibrated to a full battery.
fast charge does reduce battery life since it charges at higher voltage and amperage. any battery gets damaged a little by that. best is a slow charge (preferably Qi) at a normal charging voltage. Slower the better for longer battery life. if you want convenience over battery life then by all means fast charge and mess it up and replace after 2-3 years.
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Click to collapse
arjun90 said:
Who's post are you referring to?
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It's mine. That guy already bumped into me a while ago, now it's time for his revenge.
I'll care for that, now...
---------- Post added at 02:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:32 PM ----------
zurkx said:
this is the same guy making up stuff about the note 4 GPS being bad.
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Click to collapse
So here we go; you asked for it...
My critism about the Note 4 refers to it's GPS receiver, which is "deaf" compared to the competition and shows frequent signal drops.
More here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/note-4/general/gps-close-to-unusable-t2948602
dont listen to fools.
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Indeed - have a look:
First charge needs to be 14 hours to trickle charge the battery to full and make sure the meter is calibrated to a full battery.
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Click to collapse
I already advised to realize this is 2014 battery technology, not the ancient batteries of the past.
Short: There is no "trickle charge" with Lithium-Ion-batteries.
See this: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries - quote: "The difference lies in a higher voltage per cell, tighter voltage tolerance and the absence of trickle or float charge at full charge."
fast charge does reduce battery life since it charges at higher voltage and amperage. any battery gets damaged a little by that.
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Quote: "The charge rate of a typical consumer Li-ion battery is between 0.5 and 1C in Stage 1, and the charge time is about three hours. Manufacturers recommend charging the 18650 cell at 0.8C or less."
"C" is the capacity, 3220 mAh with our Note 4's battery. So we're save to charge with a current (milliamperes, "mA") of up to 3220 mA - if we follow the manufacturer's advice for the older type of batteries of that kind (18650 is an old warrior in the field), there's still 2576 A left.
So what does our fast charge supply deliver ? Look at it's ratings: 5 V, 2 A (2000 mA).
So even fast charge is far below the limits - our real limit is 3220 mA, but fast charging just uses 2000 mA.
Sound and safe.
Wonder about me highlighting "higher voltage" in zurkx's highly elaborate statement in red ? - Answer is above: The voltage does NOT change, it is NOT higher. Of course not !
The worst enemies of LiIon batteries are heat and age.
Heat is generated by a) placing the device at a hot spot (like behind the car's windscreen or in bright sunlight), b) by using demanding features like 4K video recording or highend games, c) by charging .
a) Your call. Just don't let your Note get hot. Overheating destroys your battery in no time. We're lucky we've got an exchangeable battery - so nothing to really worry about.
b) Your call. See a).
c) Charging produces some heat, especially on the "last mile", when the battery is "almost full", because the battery is a bit reluctant of getting charged up to the brim. So more heat is generated in that last phase. It's not much, won't reach the safety limits. It just can't, because the build-in charging circuits limits the current if heat gets up.
By the way: That integrated charging circuits are propped with safety measures, checking charge, condition, temperature and the like.
So even if you hook up a charger capable of providing 20 whopping amperes, the circuits just won't let that happen.
There is no way of providing the battery too much current; it's automatically limited.
best is a slow charge (preferably Qi) at a normal charging voltage. Slower the better for longer battery life.
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Again; welcome to the 21st century. We don't need any slow charge. It's the opposite.
Charging right slow has the danger that apps on the phone draw more power than the charge provides. That may drain your battery instead of filling it.
Plus: If you hook up the charger for long, it will be recharged (charge gets "topped off") frequenly. And every new charging attempt has a slightly negative impact on the battery's life; it's like wearing it a bit down. - Charge often, reduce your battery's life. That damage is tiny, by the way. But it is there, so hooking up your charger for many hours slowly kills your battery.
Now for the aging:
if you want convenience over battery life then by all means fast charge and mess it up and replace after 2-3 years.
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Click to collapse
LiIon battery ARE AGING, up from the time of manufacture.
You all know that: You charge a device like you're told by the instructions - but after 1 to 3 years you notice a severe drop of usage time, a drop of capacity.
That's aging.
NOTHING you can do against that but buying a new battery.
So your battery will lose it's capacity over time; if you use it or not. You all know that, you all experienced that.
With the Note 4, we can happily buy a new battery if the old one runs out; it's that simple. But as a normal Li Ion battery reaches it's shelf live after 2 or 3 years anyway, there's NO (!) need of burdening it and you with slow charge. The results are exactly the same, with the difference that you save precious time with fast charging.
And now allow me quoting again:
dont listen to fools.
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Have a nice day, all of you except one.
youre completely wrong.
The QuickCharge tech charges at higher VOLTAGE and AMPERAGE.
http://www.androidauthority.com/quick-charge-explained-563838/
Quick Charge 2.0
Voltages 5v 5v / 9v / 12v
Max Current 2A 3A
Snapdragon 200, 400, 410, 615, 800, 801, 805
The rest is just BS as usual. You have no idea what youre talking about. Dumping 9V (Samsung Note 4 AFC) into a 5V battery makes it charge hotter and faster and degrades it significantly. After two weeks of fast charge i lost a small chunk off the top of my brand new battery.
just bad advice as usual.
zurkx said:
youre completely wrong.
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Click to collapse
Yes, indeed. I was completely wrong by believing you'd understand some simple things.
In fact, I am not sure if I should take your statements for serious or just for a joke.
The QuickCharge tech charges at higher VOLTAGE and AMPERAGE.
Voltages 5v 5v / 9v / 12v
Max Current 2A 3A
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So you REALLY believe that changes of the output voltage of the POWER SUPPLY lead to the BATTERY charged with more volts ?
You can't be serious. That's technically impossible.
Let's put it easy:
If you insert your power supply into a 110 V receptacle in the USA, you get 5 V output.
So according to your "logic", using the same power supply in Europe (230 V) increases the voltage to 10 V ?
No. Just NO.
That higher POWER SUPPLY voltage is used for fulfilling the rule W = V * A (Watt = Volt * Ampere); just to be able to squeeze more power through the power supply's cable.
In the Note 4 and in the charging circuit, that voltage OF COURSE will be regulated down to the regular charging voltage - just with the benefit to carry more amperes.
So the CHARGING VOLTAGE stays the same; it does NOT follow the voltage supplied by the POWER SUPPLY. It never does.
So fast charging does NOT (read that: NOT !) increase the charging voltage. It cannot.
Got that now ? - Or do I need to put it ever more simple ?
It does not help using swearing words like "fool" or "bull****".
But it could help just saying: "Oh, sorry, I was wrong. - My apologies."
Make yourself at home with the basics of lithium ion and charging technology. THEN speak up.
Ah, overlooked something:
After two weeks of fast charge i lost a small chunk off the top of my brand new battery.
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Click to collapse
1) Hope that chunk fell somewhere you were able to pick it up again.
2) How to you KNOW that ? I expect a detailled description about how you did the magic of finding out that your battery doesn't charge to 100 %.
3) If you KNEW that fast charging would kill your battery, wise man - why did you allegedly use the feature ? - Sorry, man... Your statements are not very trustworthy. I guess you never used that feature, just say so to strengthen your shaky point of view. Please don't mess with a perception psychologist.
4) If your battery really suffered, that might be due to your highly acclaimed and absolutely pointless 14-hours-charging-marathons, causing a permanent charge on/charge off cycle, weakening your battery.
So please just stop bashing a real useful feature of the Note 4. If you just love waiting ages for batteries to charge - your preference. But please stop spreading false facts about things you very obviously are not at home with.
And a last thing which might stop that aimless harassing fire of yours: I am HAM, a licenced amateur radio operator, holding the highest German licence class. These are the people who know a bit about volts and amperes.
how hard is it for you to understand that quickcharge 2.0 outputs higher VOLTAGE and AMPERAGE to charge the battery ? The charger charges the BATTERY AT 9V 1.67A up to 50% and then switches over to the regular 5V 2A charge rate. INPUT VOLTAGE (110V or 230V) has nothing to do with OUTPUT VOLTAGE. It charges the battery at 9V REGARDLESS of INPUT VOLTAGE.
edit:
also it has nothing to do with the cable. you must be crazy if you think a cable issue exists whether you transfer 15W or 10W across it. the cable is rated for well beyond that. the reason for the higher voltage is that modern lithium ions can accept high voltage charge rates with limited damage at low amperage. the reason they cut it off at 50% is the battery would be severely damaged if you tried to charge it to 100% and overshot. so yes quickcharge 2.0 really does charge your battery at a higher voltage than it was designed to be charged at. and no they dont have a magical transformer on your phone to go from 9V to 5V. otherwise they would be using it all the time and fast charge 9V to 100%. the wall plug is the only thing which has a transformer and the phone uses what it gets from there. they arent going to build half of another wall plug (9V DC-DC) and stuff it into the phone. it would generate heat and add bulk. Instead the PMIC "spikes" the battery with higher voltage and keeps it roughly constant (load modulation) by communicating with the quickcharge 2.0 AFC on the other end.
Hopeless.
I just love these battery threads, there's always some muppet who says the battery needs conditioning and must first be charged for a suitably ridiculous length of time. When it's charged it's charged, lithium batteries have no memory effect so the idea of conditioning them is moronic
Sent from my SM-N910F using XDA Free mobile app
yes they have no memory effect. why ? because you say so.
other people believe otherwise because they actually test things out for themselves :
http://www.psi.ch/media/memory-effect-now-also-found-in-lithium-ion-batteries
http://pocketnow.com/2013/05/03/li-ion-batteries-memory-effect
http://www.nature.com/nmat/journal/v12/n6/full/nmat3623.html
no need to keep it for 14 hours, as they said in the catalog you only need to charge it till it's full, then unplug the charger.
Hello again !
After all cooled down a bit, here's some more information about that dreaded HIGH VOLTAGE fast charging uses which seemingly makes some of you wet your pants.
First, there's an experiment you can do yourself. You don't need to do - but it's quite impressive and gives you some proof of the things I say.
Get two 9 V batteries; the small rectangle ones we all know. Connect the positive contact of the first battery with the negative contact of the second. Thus you get an 18 volts DC power source.
Get a thin, isolated wire, short-circuit the open contacts with the wire. Wait.
Nothing special will happen, maybe the wire will get a little warm - and your batteries will eventually die.
(If you use a VERY thing wires, it might heat up.)
Now take a length of the same wire, do the same using your car's battery (12 – 13.8 V DC).
WARNING !
1) Take the battery out of the car, set it on solid ground with nothing combustible near !!! Do NOT try this with the battery still in the car !!!
2) Use pliers to connect the wire with the battery contacts !!!
3) Do that OUTDOORS !!!
Short-circuit the battery contacts using the pliers with the wire.
You don't need to wait. The cable will turn into a smoking, burning, white-hot thing in an instant.
Huh ? - We've got 18 V with just nothing happening, we've got just 12 V wreaking instant havoc and destruction !?
Amperage is the key !
Voltage alone does not cause the destruction, it's the amperage.
9 V batteries cannot provide sufficient amperes for killing the wire; 12 V car batteries do.
Short: High amperage kills wires, high voltage doesn't.
So back to our topic...
To fast charge our Note 4's battery, we need power, watts. But the tiny wires in the Note 4 can't withstand a high wattage; they would heat up like the wire connected to the 12 V car battery.
So Samsung uses a little trick, according to Ohm's law: W = V * A, W is watts, V is volts, A is amperes.
So we can achieve a high wattage by EITHER using a higher voltage OR a higher amperage.
Higher amperage does not work because it will kill the tiny wires in the Note.
So Samsung raised the voltage for carrying more watts from the power supply via the internal Note 4's cabling to the charging circuit.
That higher voltage gets transformed down to the normal charging voltage at the charging circuit.
Your battery is charged with the usual voltage, but with the benefits of a higher amperage.
That's all the magic: That higher voltage is used to carry more wattage to the charging circuit, but not beyond. Nothing else.
And that's why it does not harm your battery; charging voltage will not change - your battery just gets charged faster, always monitored by the charging circuit which will lower the charge accordingly if needed, so your battery will always be safe. That's why the "last mile" (charge from about 92 % to 100 %) takes more time to charge - because the charging circuit automatically lowers the charge to protect your battery.
So don't be afraid of that higher voltage; it never reaches your battery, it is just a means for transferring higher wattage via tiny wires.
Note: You ever wondered why Europeans use 230 V instead of 110 V ? - That's the reason. Being able to carry more watts over regular power lines without risking the wires heating up too much. It's not a means of destruction, it's the opposite.
Hi guys,
N910C with Exynos here.
I have some questions for you guys.
1) Is it beneficial to use a generic (but good) 1/2 A (amp) 5 V (volts) charger over the Samsung charger?
2) What happens if I leave "fast charge" option on? Will it charge faster? Will it try to?
3) When using the provided Samsung charger, is it better for the battery to leave the "fast charge" option off?
4) Is the fast charge (or any fast charged charge) as good and efficient(?) as a 'slow' charge? Will they last the same?
5) What if I turn off the phone, is it going to "fast charge" by default when using the the provided charger?
Thanks in advance guys!
Sent from my SM-N910C
fedecape said:
1) Is it beneficial to use a generic (but good) 1/2 A (amp) 5 V (volts) charger over the Samsung charger
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No. It won't do any harm, it will just take more time to charge your Note.
2) What happens if I leave "fast charge" option on? Will it charge faster? Will it try to?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It will charge slowly. Reason: Fast charging uses a slightly higher voltage for transferring the charge to the charging circuit. That's to keep the amperage low, so the tiny wires won't overheat. It's just according to the formula W = V x A: You can increase the wattage by increasing the amperage (heating up the wires) or by increasing the voltage (keeping the wires cool).
That's the reason why many countries don't use 110 V but 230 V - to decrease the burden on the electricity lines as you can then safely transfer more watts through the same lines. It's a kind of safety measure.
3) When using the provided Samsung charger, is it better for the battery to leave the "fast charge" option off?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No. Fast charging does not reach the safety limits defined for our battery.
4) Is the fast charge (or any fast charged charge) as good and efficient(?) as a 'slow' charge? Will they last the same?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes. Just imagine it this way: If you fill your car at the fuel station slowly or fast - does that show any effect on your car's range ? - No.
5) What if I turn off the phone, is it going to "fast charge" by default when using the the provided charger?
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Click to collapse
If you enabled that in the settings, yes. Otherwise: No.
One question is missing: "Does Fast charge harm my battery if charging under hot climate conditions?"
Answer: No. There are temperature sensors in the battery, decreasing or even stopping the charge if the temperature gets too high.
Short: The difference between slow and fast charging is - slow charging charges slow. And that's it.
Chefproll said:
No.
It will charge slowly.
No.
Yes.
If you enabled that in the settings.
Short: The difference between slow and fast charging is - slow charging charges slow. And that's it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks!
So why isn't fast charge always enabled? Why are we given the slow charge option?
Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk
fedecape said:
So why isn't fast charge always enabled? Why are we given the slow charge option?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To be honest: You already answered your own question - by asking your questions.
If you have a look around XDA, you'll find countless threads discussing the "problem" - many users fear Fast charging may harm their battery.
Some users even believe the battery would be charged with an overvoltage (as that voltage is mentioned on the rating plate of the charger), thus causing damage.
No, not true. That higher voltage is just used for safely "transporting" the charge through the wires by keeping the amperage low. After that, the charging circuit will regulate voltage and amperage down to healthy levels prior to reaching the battery.
But people get misled by many self-proclaimed "experts" (which will surely show up here, too) praying that Fast charge is a work of evil; just wait.
That's why Samsung made that feature an option, not a rule. A courtesy for the overcautious.
Chefproll said:
To be honest: You already answered your own question - by asking your questions.
If you have a look around XDA, you'll find countless threads discussing the "problem" - many users fear Fast charging may harm their battery.
Some users even believe the battery would be charged with an overvoltage (as that voltage is mentioned on the rating plate of the charger), thus causing damage.
No, not true. That higher voltage is just used for safely "transporting" the charge through the wires by keeping the amperage low. After that, the charging circuit will regulate voltage and amperage down to healthy levels prior to reaching the battery.
But people get misled by many self-proclaimed "experts" (which will surely show up here, too) praying that Fast charge is a work of evil; just wait.
That's why Samsung made that feature an option, not a rule. A courtesy for the overcautious.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Awesome! Good to know
Hope this thread helps other people too
Thank you!
Chefproll said:
To be honest: You already answered your own question - by asking your questions.
If you have a look around XDA, you'll find countless threads discussing the "problem" - many users fear Fast charging may harm their battery.
Some users even believe the battery would be charged with an overvoltage (as that voltage is mentioned on the rating plate of the charger), thus causing damage.
No, not true. That higher voltage is just used for safely "transporting" the charge through the wires by keeping the amperage low. After that, the charging circuit will regulate voltage and amperage down to healthy levels prior to reaching the battery.
But people get misled by many self-proclaimed "experts" (which will surely show up here, too) praying that Fast charge is a work of evil; just wait.
That's why Samsung made that feature an option, not a rule. A courtesy for the overcautious.
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Click to collapse
Hi again,
Let me ask you one last question.
I need to buy a new battery because I never make it home with charge. Is there anything that I have to keep in mind? Is it OK if I use fast charge with a generic battery?
Thanks
Sent from my SM-N910C
fedecape said:
I need to buy a new battery because I never make it home with charge. Is there anything that I have to keep in mind? Is it OK if I use fast charge with a generic battery?
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Click to collapse
I'd stick with the original Samsung batteries. They had problems in the past (deforming, bulging S4 batteries losing almost all of their capacity - I had one of those myself, got exchanged for free), but I guess they solved the problem.
Reason is: Li-Ion batteries may have different charging parameters; like maximum allowable current.
The Fast charger was made specifically for the Note 4s battery. If you buy a different type, the fast charging current may exceed the current rating of a third party battery, leading to highly unwanted effects including destruction of the battery.
This is not too likely because each battery has (or should have) a built-in charging circuit for limiting the current, which even switches off charging if the battery's temperature reaches unhealthy levels. But it's still possible, depending on the battery type and manufacturer. I wouldn't place any high bets on charging circuits of cheap batteries; everything's possible.
That's why it's best to stick with original batteries - at least in this case.
fedecape said:
Hi again,
Let me ask you one last question.
I need to buy a new battery because I never make it home with charge. Is there anything that I have to keep in mind? Is it OK if I use fast charge with a generic battery?
Thanks
Sent from my SM-N910C
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If I were you I would stick with the Samsung battery, they don't cost that much and they come with their own charger and holder. It may cost a little more but you get a full warranty with it.
I'm wondering if the heat I hear about being generated before the charging rate slows down after 50% would have any negative impact on battery life. Would there be any benefit in using my multi-port charger for overnight charges when I am not in a hurry to charge the battery?
Also, I assume that the battery doesn't have any memory, and that there's no reason to break it in, fully discharge periodically, etc. and that it's okay to charge a little or a lot regardless of the current charge state. Is that correct?
This is a question i would like to know the answer to as well
I did a slow charge last night and the battery seemed to discharge s little slower this morning fwiw, but that's not terribly scientific.
Sent from my XT1575 using XDA Free mobile app
There's already a thread for this. No, it doe not harm battery life.
Darnell_Chat_TN said:
There's already a thread for this. No, it doe not harm battery life.
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Click to collapse
Could you please point me towards that thread? I didn't locate it with a few search combinations. Thanks.
Mississip said:
I'm wondering if the heat I hear about being generated before the charging rate slows down after 50% would have any negative impact on battery life. Would there be any benefit in using my multi-port charger for overnight charges when I am not in a hurry to charge the battery?
Also, I assume that the battery doesn't have any memory, and that there's no reason to break it in, fully discharge periodically, etc. and that it's okay to charge a little or a lot regardless of the current charge state. Is that correct?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fast Charging Lithium = Battery damage. It's basic chemistry. The cells take mechanical damage from expanding too quickly. So, for best longevity, charge her with like a .7 to 1 amp charger.
Locklear308 said:
Fast Charging Lithium = Battery damage. It's basic chemistry. The cells take mechanical damage from expanding too quickly. So, for best longevity, charge her with like a .7 to 1 amp charger.
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Click to collapse
wrong. the only thing that damages cells is charging beyond the voltage specifications. How fast you dump electrons in has no negative effects, its only when you put too many in that batteries get damaged.
Locklear308 said:
Fast Charging Lithium = Battery damage. It's basic chemistry. The cells take mechanical damage from expanding too quickly. So, for best longevity, charge her with like a .7 to 1 amp charger.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you. I had thought the same thing. No one had the time to give me any detailed information, so I researched. I can't post links, but the following articles are helpful and will show up first in a search for the title
'Will speed chargers kill your battery?'
'BU-401a: Fast and Ultra-fast Chargers'
A conventional phone charger can only supply the current and voltage that is safe for a battery at all charge levels. In other words, it is must use the least common denominator. Quick Charge makes this process much more active by monitoring max current, max voltage, and temperature so that it can supply more power when it is safe and less power when it is not. Quick Charge will always keep the current, voltage, and temperature within the battery's designed specifications.
In terms of battery memory effect, no, modern lithium based batteries do not have any sort of memory-like effect. This is mostly associated with older and cheaper NiCad type batteries. This is one of those things that people seem to have a really hard time moving past.
People worry far too much about babying their battery.
Assuming you are going to use the phone for ~2 years then a properly designed fast charger should have a negligible effect on battery life. After 2 years of continuous usage all bets are off whether you used a fast charger or not.
If you really want to worry about how to treat your battery then there are two things you should try not to do. Don't let the battery go all the way to 0% and let it sit like that for a year. Don't leave your phone on your dash in direct sunlight everyday. Outside of those two things there's not much you can do to change the lifetime of your battery so just use the damn thing. =P
dalingrin said:
A conventional phone charger can only supply the current and voltage that is safe for a battery at all charge levels. In other words, it is must use the least common denominator. Quick Charge makes this process much more active by monitoring max current, max voltage, and temperature so that it can supply more power when it is safe and less power when it is not. Quick Charge will always keep the current, voltage, and temperature within the battery's designed specifications.
In terms of battery memory effect, no, modern lithium based batteries do not have any sort of memory-like effect. This is mostly associated with older and cheaper NiCad type batteries. This is one of those things that people seem to have a really hard time moving past.
People worry far too much about babying their battery.
Assuming you are going to use the phone for ~2 years then a properly designed fast charger should have a negligible effect on battery life. After 2 years of continuous usage all bets are off whether you used a fast charger or not.
If you really want to worry about how to treat your battery then there are two things you should try not to do. Don't let the battery go all the way to 0% and let it sit like that for a year. Don't leave your phone on your dash in direct sunlight everyday. Outside of those two things there's not much you can do to change the lifetime of your battery so just use the damn thing. =P
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Click to collapse
Exactly.
dalingrin said:
A conventional phone charger can only supply the current and voltage that is safe for a battery at all charge levels. In other words, it is must use the least common denominator. Quick Charge makes this process much more active by monitoring max current, max voltage, and temperature so that it can supply more power when it is safe and less power when it is not. Quick Charge will always keep the current, voltage, and temperature within the battery's designed specifications.
In terms of battery memory effect, no, modern lithium based batteries do not have any sort of memory-like effect. This is mostly associated with older and cheaper NiCad type batteries. This is one of those things that people seem to have a really hard time moving past.
People worry far too much about babying their battery.
Assuming you are going to use the phone for ~2 years then a properly designed fast charger should have a negligible effect on battery life. After 2 years of continuous usage all bets are off whether you used a fast charger or not.
If you really want to worry about how to treat your battery then there are two things you should try not to do. Don't let the battery go all the way to 0% and let it sit like that for a year. Don't leave your phone on your dash in direct sunlight everyday. Outside of those two things there's not much you can do to change the lifetime of your battery so just use the damn thing. =P
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I had researched the topic and learned what you have stated, but I really appreciate you taking the time to write this fuller explanation. I wished to take every reasonable precaution to maximize battery life, given the battery is not easily replaced.
There have been references published claiming that charging faster (higher current) shortens overall Li-Ion battery life.
Mechanism may be related to heat.
One thing the Qualcomm Quick Charge 2.0 (used in the Snapdragon 808) does is increase voltage at the charger from standard USB 5V, to 9V and 12V, for higher charge rates (power) at still-moderate current (to keep heat dissipation down).
I measured 1.1 to 2.3 amps at ~9V with QC 2.0 charger on the MXPE, with the higher current measurements at lower State of Charge (SoC). Have not seen 12V yet, but I only tried it down to 45% SoC (2.3 amps at 9V), I imagine it bumps up to 12V when the battery is discharged further, nearer to complete discharge.
This charger is rated for
5V, 4A
9V, 2.22A
12V, 2.5A
20V, 1.0A
So the max power fed to the battery would be 28W (12V*2.5A).
(This is the Power Partners PEAW30-12-USB, supposedly a 30W charger. So much for integrity in advertising.)
So the current is kept to a manageable level to control heat dissipation (therefore max temperatures), from the charger to (somewhere in the phone). But I believe that at the battery itself, more rapid charging (higher power) would still require higher current, because voltages have to be limited in the battery itself, so one would think heat dissipation (> max temperatures) would still be a problem in the battery itself. Does that shorten battery life?
The answer is probably: Who cares. Because: Li-Ion batteries have a 2-3 year life in any case, regardless of their service life or even if they are not used at all. They age and exhibit substantial capacity decline over time. Discharge/charge cycles hasten the capacity decline, but the battery is only good for 2-3 years, give or take, no matter what. And since aftermarket replacement batteries are inferior, unsafe, and stale, there is no reason to try to hang on to your phone for more than 2-3 years in any case. (Especially since the "non-user-replaceable" batteries can be a pain in the a** to R&R. The Moto X Pure 2015 battery is one of those. Some phones actually incur permanent damage to seals if the battery is removed/replaced - the Kyocera Hydro Wave is this way.)
You say "but you could replace the battery with an OEM battery". There are two types of OEM Li-Ion phone batteries on the market that an individual consumer can buy retail, when their phone is 2 years old or more: Used stale batteries (look up "reverse logistics"), and "new" (i.e. not put into service yet) stale batteries. Good luck finding a fresh, new OEM Li-Ion battery for your 2 year old or older phone (out of production for at least a year).
Been down this road before. Wasted lots of time and money replacing phone batteries after 2-3 years. From now on I'm going to stop coddling phone batteries, stop replacing them after 2-3 years, and just figure on a new phone every 2-3 years. It's the only way to get a fresh, new Li-Ion phone battery. (And get the phone right when it is released, like the MXPE this month. That way you are more sure the battery is fresh.)
I think everything in the wireless phone paradigm is increasingly heading that way anyway. Everything, and I mean everything, pushes the market to a 2 year product life cycle. Batteries last 2 years. Increasingly, batteries are not made to be replaceable. Carriers are changing networks so fast you need a new phone every 2 for that alone. New OS/SW overloads hardware older than 2 years. Displays may fade over a couple years. USB connectors wear out. Just relax and go with it. Marvel at the Qualcomm Quick Charge 2.0 (I am). You'll be happier with a new phone every 2 years.
Sorry for the long rant.
Sorry for the kind of off topic, but it's kind of related... is it okay to use other devices with the included fast charger? I just hate having 2 micro usb chargers plugged in, when I could use just one
Sent from my XT1575 using XDA Free mobile app
crash613 said:
Sorry for the kind of off topic, but it's kind of related... is it okay to use other devices with the included fast charger? I just hate having 2 micro usb chargers plugged in, when I could use just one
Sent from my XT1575 using XDA Free mobile app
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Yes, the Moto Turbo Charger can be used with any MicroUSB charging device. It will adjust charging as needed for the individual device. Moto made the Turbo Charger, to be a single charger for all MicroUSB devices.
If the battery is kept well charged, which Turbo Charging helps to accomplish. That's better to me, than more drain and slower chargers that leave the battery more drained overall. The batteries are supposed to last longer when kept fully charged more often.
crash613 said:
Sorry for the kind of off topic, but it's kind of related... is it okay to use other devices with the included fast charger? I just hate having 2 micro usb chargers plugged in, when I could use just one
Sent from my XT1575 using XDA Free mobile app
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Click to collapse
"...since Quick Charge 2.0 is compatible and interoperable, a certified adapter can be used with a non-Quick Charge 2.0 device, though the fast charging benefits of Quick Charge 2.0 will not be available. "
https://www.qualcomm.com/products/snapdragon/quick-charge/faq
By all appearances, Motorola's "TurboPower™ Charging" is nothing more than Qualcomm Quick Charge 2.0. (That's what Snapdragon 808 in the XT1575 uses.)
The third-party Qualcomm Quick Charge 2.0 chargers I bought are recognized as "Turbo" and function with the XT1575, just like the Motorola charger that came with the XT1575.
(There are a LOT of Qualcomm-certified QC 2.0 chargers for sale by third-party names. Qualcomm has been BUSY. )
To slow charge a S7, do we have to turn off fast charging from the settings and then charge via the charger that came with the phone(the so called fast charger) or should we use a charger from an old phone say SIII etc.?
Does this hold true for Motorola's phone also which have turbo charging option?
Also how to measure battery cycles? Any credible app for the same?
billubakra said:
To slow charge a S7, do we have to turn off fast charging from the settings and then charge via the charger that came with the phone(the so called fast charger) or should we use a charger from an old phone say SIII etc.?
Does this hold true for Motorola's phone also which have turbo charging option?
Also how to measure battery cycles? Any credible app for the same?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Moto doesn't have the option in settings, it uses industry standard Qualcomm Quick Charge standard rather than a OS hack like Samsung (no offense)... If it is connected to a QC 2.0 charger, it will negotiate the appropriate charge rate, if it is connected to a "standard" charger it will charge normally.
I don't think you can accurately measure battery/charge cycles... even if you could it would be extremely deceiving, what would be considered a cycle? Charging at 50%, 30%, 10%, and to what point 75%, 80%, 100%? Too much room for interpretation here that could be swayed either way depending on the person/app counting it's point of view.
acejavelin said:
Moto doesn't have the option in settings, it uses industry standard Qualcomm Quick Charge standard rather than a OS hack like Samsung (no offense)... If it is connected to a QC 2.0 charger, it will negotiate the appropriate charge rate, if it is connected to a "standard" charger it will charge normally.
I don't think you can accurately measure battery/charge cycles... even if you could it would be extremely deceiving, what would be considered a cycle? Charging at 50%, 30%, 10%, and to what point 75%, 80%, 100%? Too much room for interpretation here that could be swayed either way depending on the person/app counting it's point of view.
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Thanks for replying dear. So, for S7 I have turned off fast charge, should I now charge via the charger that came with the phone(the so called fast charger) or should we use a charger from an old phone say SIII etc.?
For Moto G, the question is the same as above.
Of the little what I have understood from various threads here is to charge the battery when it is between 20-40% to 80-90% if you want to have a good battery life. I used to do the complete opposite charge, when the battery is at say 6-7% and charge it till it is maxed. I used to do the same for my laptop, any other tip for the battery?
And I have signed your petition Brother. I hope they listen to the users.
billubakra said:
Thanks for replying dear. So, for S7 I have turned off fast charge, should I now charge via the charger that came with the phone(the so called fast charger) or should we use a charger from an old phone say SIII etc.?
For Moto G, the question is the same as above.
Of the little what I have understood from various threads here is to charge the battery when it is between 20-40% to 80-90% if you want to have a good battery life. I used to do the complete opposite charge, when the battery is at say 6-7% and charge it till it is maxed. I used to do the same for my laptop, any other tip for the battery?
And I have signed your petition Brother. I hope they listen to the users.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Does Fast Charge hurt the battery life, no, at least not directly... heat does. Using an older style charger will avoid Quick Charging but I think that foregoing that benefit for a few more days of battery life is hardly worth it. I frequently have 30-60 minutes to charge, not 3-5 hours, so quick charge is nice, if it takes few days off the longevity of the battery so be it. Those who think it cuts the battery life by 20, 30, even 50% are wrong, that simply isn't the case because of Fast Charge itself.
The Moto G isn't an issue here, it doesn't support Quick Charge until the 4th generation, but why give up the feature?
I don't think the "rules" of charging apply as much as people think they do... I charge mine overnight and whenever it needs it during the day, if it does. There is no need to do anything special.
acejavelin said:
Does Fast Charge hurt the battery life, no, at least not directly... heat does. Using an older style charger will avoid Quick Charging but I think that foregoing that benefit for a few more days of battery life is hardly worth it. I frequently have 30-60 minutes to charge, not 3-5 hours, so quick charge is nice, if it takes few days off the longevity of the battery so be it. Those who think it cuts the battery life by 20, 30, even 50% are wrong, that simply isn't the case because of Fast Charge itself.
The Moto G isn't an issue here, it doesn't support Quick Charge until the 4th generation, but why give up the feature?
I don't think the "rules" of charging apply as much as people think they do... I charge mine overnight and whenever it needs it during the day, if it does. There is no need to do anything special.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the wonderful and detailed reply. I am going to try, not stick, to slow charging to see the difference in heating of the battery. My SIII's charger 's input is 150-300VAC, 50-60 hz 0.15AA, output- 5.0V-1.0A and S7's details are input 100-240V 50-60hz 0.5A, output- 9.0V= 1.67 A or 5.0V=2.0A. Can I use the S3's charger to charge S7 after turning of fast charge or is there a voltage difference or something? G4 is at home, don't know about its details. Also in my country the battery or the replacement parts are way too expensive.