Related
We all know that the One (and many other modern cellphones) have a Lithium Ion battery. While these batteries have no traditional 'memory effect' the way NiMH did, it seems that different chemistries for the electrolyte would suggest different strategies for recharging.
For example, after looking at the Wikipedia entry for Lithium batteries, it would seem that we should be mindful about 'topping off' the battery, because charging deteriorates the lifespan, implying that running down the battery might be a more advisable practice than plugging in to fully charge every night.
Wondering if any of you experts out there can comment and discuss, given that we One users no longer have replacable cells.
Good question, I too would be very interested in hearing from some of the posters that are knowledgeable in this area.
Sent from my HTC EVO 3D X515m using xda premium
This is pretty well established knowledge right now. I'll list everything pertinent about lithium ion batteries and charging smartphones:
Edit: Note that I mention Lithium Ion in this post, but the HTC One uses Lithium Polymer. They are for all intents and purposes equal in terms of their usability, except for slightly less charge cycles
Edit 2: Hello Reddit! No idea this would have taken off. I'm "coolmatty" on reddit. This is an overall generalization, and there are plenty of resources that go into more detail. Places like Battery University are great sites to start.
1. Charging is what reduces the life of a lithium ion battery. Batteries are usually rated between 700-1000 charge cycles while keeping 90% of their capacity.
2. Charging 0-100% counts as one cycle. Charging 80-100% 5 times counts as one cycle.
3. Leaving your phone on the charger after it is charged has the potential to reduce battery life, although this is less of a problem with newer devices as they often disconnect the charging circuit until the battery drops below ~95%. Generally only an issue if you leave it on the charger for 24+ hours.
4. Lithium ion batteries do not require any conditioning.
5. Most lithium ion devices arrive with ~40-50% battery life remaining, because this is the optimal charge level to store a lithium battery for long periods (such as sitting on a store shelf for months).
6. Slower charging maintains the battery's overall lifetime capacity better than fast charging. This is likely why the HTC One does not have Qualcomm's Quick Charge enabled. It's debateable whether you'd notice the effects over the typical lifetime of a smartphone, however (2 years).
7. Not exactly related to lithium but just in general: smartphones (and tablets, etc) have charging circuits that only draw a certain amount of amps regardless of the number of amps the charger provides. Using a 3.1 amp (tablet-level) charger is not going to significantly increase the speed at which your phone charges. Most phones only use between 0.8 - 1.2 amps. Anything over that is overkill.
8. Storing a lithium ion battery at 0% is really bad for its lifetime capacity. Running it to 0% generally isn't recommended all the time, but a few instances won't hurt it.
9. Recharging from 0-100 doesn't make your battery run longer. It can, however, reset Android's battery level stats so that it can more accurately state the battery level.
10. Charging from ~95% to 100% takes a long time because it must do a trickle charge. Maxing out the battery like this can reduce overall lifetime capacity, but generally not enough to matter. You'll see this impact more often in larger applications of lithium batteries (like cars).
You have no idea how many people need this post (on some points, myself included). Thanks.
Vincent Law said:
2. Charging 0-100% counts as one cycle. Charging 80-100% 5 times counts as one cycle.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It does not seem to be that uniform, according to this:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries
From what I understood from the link above in Table 2, you can get the best longevity by charging from 50% (2nd row).
jasahu said:
It does not seem to be that uniform, according to this:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries
From what I understood from the link above in Table 2, you can get the best longevity by charging from 50% (2nd row).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But is it practical to charge it at 50% every time?
Doesn't the one infact have a Li-Po battery ? Would these points still apply ?
Nyxagamemnon said:
But is it practical to charge it at 50% every time?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What is a practical approach for me now, after reading this all, is to charge it every night.
This way
- I have better chances for not running out of battery during the day
- either it was at 75% (3rd row) or 50% (2nd row) I still have better longevity than charging from 0% most of the time.
Battery life will not degrade as long as you donot empty its charge for long time and donot use it while on charge... over heat on battery aged the battery...
Sent from my GT-I9082 using xda premium
Just wanted to add: li-ion and li-po batteries now-a-days have protection circuitry to prevent overcharge and over-discharge. Overcharge protection based on what is stated above, known as trickle charge. Over-discharge protection means that your phone will shut off when your battery is around 3v per cell, whereas you should refrain from force starting the phone. The only benefit you get from fully charging/discharging is battery calibration for cell mismatches. It is also good to know that partial charges are better than full charges when it comes to lithium ion (and lithium polymer) batteries.
The HTC one uses li-poly, not li-ion
Can read all about the advantages and disadvantages of each other here:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/is_lithium_ion_the_ideal_battery
li-poly
Advantages
Very low profile - batteries resembling the profile of a credit card are feasible.
Flexible form factor - manufacturers are not bound by standard cell formats. With high volume, any reasonable size can be produced economically.
Lightweight - gelled electrolytes enable simplified packaging by eliminating the metal shell.
Improved safety - more resistant to overcharge; less chance for electrolyte leakage.
Limitations
Lower energy density and decreased cycle count compared to lithium-ion.
Expensive to manufacture.
No standard sizes. Most cells are produced for high volume consumer markets.
Higher cost-to-energy ratio than lithium-ion
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As far as I am concerned, li-poly is overall better for phones where you can't change the battery.
by the looks of that article it was done quite a while ago (for the tech. world) so the disadvantages might not be as much of a problem these days.....
jasahu said:
It does not seem to be that uniform, according to this:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries
From what I understood from the link above in Table 2, you can get the best longevity by charging from 50% (2nd row).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was using a simplification. It would be better not to let it go to 0, but most charge cycles are rated on this. I do mention the impact of letting the battery go to 0%.
Miketoberfest said:
Doesn't the one infact have a Li-Po battery ? Would these points still apply ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A flub on my part, you are correct. There are minor differences (the only one that matters to us is slightly shorter lifetime capacity) but otherwise it works the same.
Now that i see a battery 'expert', a quick question.
Back in the dack, if you bought anything with batteries, you would have to charge them for 24h, no matter how much charged they were. But if i were to buy a phone today (Lith-Ion), Do i still have to do that?
I think not, but i'm not quite sure. Lots of people (even smartphone sellers) still recommend charging it 24h, wich i think is bull.
Bartcore3 said:
Now that i see a battery 'expert', a quick question.
Back in the dack, if you bought anything with batteries, you would have to charge them for 24h, no matter how much charged they were. But if i were to buy a phone today (Lith-Ion), Do i still have to do that?
I think not, but i'm not quite sure. Lots of people (even smartphone sellers) still recommend charging it 24h, wich i think is bull.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think that was only for the old Ni-MH batteries as they had to be bedded in as such. The newer ones dont need this
Vincent Law said:
This is pretty well established knowledge right now. I'll list everything pertinent about lithium ion batteries and charging smartphones:
1. Charging is what reduces the life of a lithium ion battery. Batteries are usually rated between 700-1000 charge cycles while keeping 90% of their capacity.
2. Charging 0-100% counts as one cycle. Charging 80-100% 5 times counts as one cycle.
3. Leaving your phone on the charger after it is charged has the potential to reduce battery life, although this is less of a problem with newer devices as they often disconnect the charging circuit until the battery drops below ~95%. Generally only an issue if you leave it on the charger for 24+ hours.
4. Lithium ion batteries do not require any conditioning.
5. Most lithium ion devices arrive with ~40-50% battery life remaining, because this is the optimal charge level to store a lithium battery for long periods (such as sitting on a store shelf for months).
6. Slower charging maintains the battery's overall lifetime capacity better than fast charging. This is likely why the HTC One does not have Qualcomm's Quick Charge enabled. It's debateable whether you'd notice the effects over the typical lifetime of a smartphone, however (2 years).
7. Not exactly related to lithium but just in general: smartphones (and tablets, etc) have charging circuits that only draw a certain amount of amps regardless of the number of amps the charger provides. Using a 3.1 amp (tablet-level) charger is not going to significantly increase the speed at which your phone charges. Most phones only use between 0.8 - 1.2 amps. Anything over that is overkill.
8. Storing a lithium ion battery at 0% is really bad for its lifetime capacity. Running it to 0% generally isn't recommended all the time, but a few instances won't hurt it.
9. Recharging from 0-100 doesn't make your battery run longer. It can, however, reset Android's battery level stats so that it can more accurately state the battery level.
10. Charging from ~95% to 100% takes a long time because it must do a trickle charge. Maxing out the battery like this can reduce overall lifetime capacity, but generally not enough to matter. You'll see this impact more often in larger applications of lithium batteries (like cars).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks Vincent. Great post will certainly bear it all in mind when charging my phone.
Sent from my HTC EVO 3D X515m using xda premium
ragingredbull said:
Thanks Vincent. Great post will certainly bear it all in mind when charging my phone.
Sent from my HTC EVO 3D X515m using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not sure everyone noticed one of the things he said. I know from my HD2 and Ruby that HTC phones will not continue charging after hitting 100%. The phone will indicate %100, but shortly after you disconnect the charger and start using the phone the indicated power level will drop to what it actually is - and it will be lower depending upon how long it has been sitting at "100%". Their phones have a protection circuit that kicks in. So if you really want 100% in the morning, power the phone down to charge it.
Bartcore3 said:
Now that i see a battery 'expert', a quick question.
Back in the dack, if you bought anything with batteries, you would have to charge them for 24h, no matter how much charged they were. But if i were to buy a phone today (Lith-Ion), Do i still have to do that?
I think not, but i'm not quite sure. Lots of people (even smartphone sellers) still recommend charging it 24h, wich i think is bull.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As I mentioned in my first post, Lithium batteries do not require conditioning. The purpose for this on old Ni-Cad batteries was to avoid the memory effect, which could result in a battery appearing to be dead long before it actually was. For instance, if you always charged it from 60%, after many instances of this, the Ni-Cad battery would suffer a voltage drop at that point, which most electronics can't handle (some can, however, and once past the short period of low voltage, they will recover and continue normally).
Charging for 24 hours is most certainly not relevant, as once the battery reaches 100%, charging has ceased anyway. There's no need to charge it to 100% anyway, other than to give you more time to play with your new toy
---------- Post added at 01:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:41 PM ----------
stevedebi said:
I'm not sure everyone noticed one of the things he said. I know from my HD2 and Ruby that HTC phones will not continue charging after hitting 100%. The phone will indicate %100, but shortly after you disconnect the charger and start using the phone the indicated power level will drop to what it actually is - and it will be lower depending upon how long it has been sitting at "100%". Their phones have a protection circuit that kicks in. So if you really want 100% in the morning, power the phone down to charge it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You'll see this in most devices nowadays. It's especially noticeable on laptops, which typically won't lie to you about the charge. It depends on the models, but I know Macbooks for instance will happily sit at 95% charge as "fully charged". This is by design and other than turning off the device, you shouldn't try to "top it off". Any other method (such as unplugging and plugging it back in) hurts the overall lifetime of the battery.
Vincent Law said:
...
You'll see this in most devices nowadays. It's especially noticeable on laptops, which typically won't lie to you about the charge. It depends on the models, but I know Macbooks for instance will happily sit at 95% charge as "fully charged". This is by design and other than turning off the device, you shouldn't try to "top it off". Any other method (such as unplugging and plugging it back in) hurts the overall lifetime of the battery.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Most of the modern laptops allow you to turn on or off the battery saving feature. For those who use the laptop while plugged in most of the time, it will stop charging at 80%. For those who will be using it off the plug, the option is there to get it to 100%.
I often see posts from people (in various forums) asking why their laptop will only charge to 80%...
stevedebi said:
Most of the modern laptops allow you to turn on or off the battery saving feature. For those who use the laptop while plugged in most of the time, it will stop charging at 80%. For those who will be using it off the plug, the option is there to get it to 100%.
I often see posts from people (in various forums) asking why their laptop will only charge to 80%...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've never heard of this, and I don't recall seeing it on any Windows or Mac laptop I've used recently. Sounds like some proprietary crap one of the manufacturers came up with. Stopping the charge at 80% doesn't make much sense, since you'll still have the issue of constantly recharging the battery (as soon as it drops below 80%).
Edit: I will say that it is marginally better than keeping it at 100%, but that said, there's steps you can take on your own that are much better.
The ideal way to use a laptop that will be plugged in for most of its lifetime is to discharge it to about 45%, and then remove the battery entirely. At that point, the battery can maintain its capacity for months without major issue. Just make sure to recharge it once every 3 months or so, as the battery will discharge (slowly) even while unplugged, but at a far slower rate than it would be inside the laptop.
Vincent Law said:
I've never heard of this, and I don't recall seeing it on any Windows or Mac laptop I've used recently. Sounds like some proprietary crap one of the manufacturers came up with. Stopping the charge at 80% doesn't make much sense, since you'll still have the issue of constantly recharging the battery (as soon as it drops below 80%).
Edit: I will say that it is marginally better than keeping it at 100%, but that said, there's steps you can take on your own that are much better.
The ideal way to use a laptop that will be plugged in for most of its lifetime is to discharge it to about 45%, and then remove the battery entirely. At that point, the battery can maintain its capacity for months without major issue. Just make sure to recharge it once every 3 months or so, as the battery will discharge (slowly) even while unplugged, but at a far slower rate than it would be inside the laptop.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The latest research from the Auto manufacturers is that Li-Ion technology works longest if the battery level is between 50 and 80%.
My Toshiba U925 ultra portable uses the optional 80% max. If you use the laptop almost exclusively while plugged in, it will help provide battery longevity, or so I understand.
Many laptops won't work unless the battery is in place. It depends on how they built the power circuits.
Is it best to do long charges then let it drain, or is it safe to for example use the phone ten mins and put it back on the mat for ten then use again and so on. Does constantly charging mess things up?
Thanks.
swainclubber said:
Is it best to do long charges then let it drain, or is it safe to for example use the phone ten mins and put it back on the mat for ten then use again and so on. Does constantly charging mess things up?
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your phone's battery should be fine as long as it's not overheating.
Most of today's batteries are built to last, which means if you are actually abusing wireless charging, you will start noticing not before 1 year from now(estimated.). And by then, most people have switched their devices. Therefore, it might be damaging you battery, I'm not an expert, but you should not start seeing any bad impact on your phone in the near future.
Other people's opinions might be more helpful than mine, but you should keep this in mind.
Cheers for your opinion. All are greatly appreciated.
guetzli32 said:
Your phone's battery should be fine as long as it's not overheating.
Most of today's batteries are built to last, which means if you are actually abusing wireless charging, you will start noticing not before 1 year from now(estimated.). And by then, most people have switched their devices. Therefore, it might be damaging you battery, I'm not an expert, but you should not start seeing any bad impact on your phone in the near future.
Other people's opinions might be more helpful than mine, but you should keep this in mind.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Right on, and by this time next year the OEM batteries will be cheaper and thus just replace them
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using XDA Free mobile app
swainclubber said:
Is it best to do long charges then let it drain, or is it safe to for example use the phone ten mins and put it back on the mat for ten then use again and so on. Does constantly charging mess things up?
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Almost no one charges batteries the ideal way.. well, because it's inconvenient to do so. Fortunately battery technology is getting better every year, batteries take longer to wear out and are (slowly) getting cheaper to replace when it comes to that.
The ideal way to charge a battery depends on the type of battery. The S5 uses a lithium ion batteries. Ideally you would charge a Li-ion battery slowly, not deep cycle it, protect the battery from hot environments and (idealy) stop charging around 85%.
Heat is the major enemy, battery life is shortened by a factor of two for every 10°C increase above 25°C. High cell voltages and cycling would fill out the top three list of things you'd like to avoid to maximize battery life.
So what does all that mean? Frequent wireless charging is beneficial if your battery charge is < 85%, because you don't want to deep cycle and slow charging (which wireless is) is better than a fast charge cycle for battery life. And a moderate stress if you are charging it when the battery is > 85%. Do what you can to avoid high heat e.g. don't leave your phone in a very hot car on a sunny day if you can avoid it. And if you go Skiing or store your phone in a freezer for some reason.. let it warm up a bit before trying to charge it.
Most of us will charge our phones even if the battery charge is > 85% though because we want to maximize run time, even though the higher voltages above 85% are a detriment to battery life. It's a trade off between utility and battery life. Battery life is conservatively specified around 500 charge cycles these days.. but that is a loosely defined term with a lot of associated variables. Depending on how you use your phone.. your battery may go six months, a year, even two years before you notice that your run time just doesn't cut it anymore.
I'd say don't worry about wireless charging. Charge it as frequently as you like. But try to keep your phone cool (out of the sun) when you can.
.
Cheers for that appreciated. However wireless charging on my setup involves a fair amount of heat
Wireless charging is relatively inefficient. Which means that there will be some waste heat generated. But it varies substantially on the brand of charger and whether you are using an resonant or inductive design. My wireless charger produces minimal heat.
Unless you measure the temperature.. it's hard to gage whether the heat from yours is a serious issue or not. Mine increases the surface temperature ~ 5C.
.
Would you mind sharing which charger you use?
fffft said:
Wireless charging is relatively inefficient. Which means that there will be some waste heat generated. But it varies substantially on the brand of charger and whether you are using an resonant or inductive design. My wireless charger produces minimal heat.
Unless you measure the temperature.. it's hard to gage whether the heat from yours is a serious issue or not. Mine increases the surface temperature ~ 5C.
.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lordhamster said:
Would you mind sharing which charger you use?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How good are you with Orcad and a soldering iron?
I built my own @ 3.57 Mhz, which is also a non-standard (but very efficient) coupling frequency.
.
swainclubber said:
Is it best to do long charges then let it drain, or is it safe to for example use the phone ten mins and put it back on the mat for ten then use again and so on. Does constantly charging mess things up?
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lithium-ion battery nowadays does not have memory effect. So constant recharging and disconnecting is fine.
Cheers folks.
So I was a bit skeptical about practical use cases for the fast charging. I made a general observation after the first few days. It's currently completely not scientific. But it seems when I disabled the fast charging, my phone seemed to handle battery life way better. Idk how efficient the energy is when done via fast charge, but I've always heard that a slow steady charge is better for lithiums.
I figured maybe this could cover the impacts of fast charge and whether people have noticed similar things. (Day 4)
h3ck said:
So I was a bit skeptical about practical use cases for the fast charging. I made a general observation after the first few days. It's currently completely not scientific. But it seems when I disabled the fast charging, my phone seemed to handle battery life way better. Idk how efficient the energy is when done via fast charge, but I've always heard that a slow steady charge is better for lithiums.
I figured maybe this could cover the impacts of fast charge and whether people have noticed similar things. (Day 4)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Looking forward to your findings!
I disabled fast charge the day I got it. Seems pointless to me since the only time I charge is at night. It's a cool feature if I need a charge in 20 minutes but the note 3 I gave my wife would charge in no time as well.
Battery life is great so far for me.
Sent from my SM-N910V using XDA Free mobile app
I've been testing this as well. I leave fast charging on and I'm seeing an easy 14 or so hours off charger with 4 to 5 hours screen time.
Fast charging is incredible. My last charge cycle I recorded was 56% to 98% in 28 min. That's about 1.5% per minute. Though I suspect soome non linearity as it gets closer to 100%.
As far as the longevity of a charge based on regular or Gast charging . There will Likley be no correlation. The charge circuit will handle the incoming current appropriately and the battery is built to handle it. I am a EE and am intimately familiar with battery technology. The charger itself changes its output voltage for fast charging (stepping up the voltage but lowering the current) and I'm at sure there is some software as well as special hardware controls in place to ensure the battery is charging effeciently.
The usual problem with charging batteries too fast is due to heat build up in the battery. However, these new batteries were developed to solve these problems. I wouldn't worry about it.
Here are my results with just over 3 hours of screen time
Sent from my Galaxy Note 4 on Verizon unlimited!
I love quick charge. Nuff sedd lol!
After a whole day on wifi in the office plus weak cellular signal inside the building destroys the battery, I plug it in for 15-20 minutes and I'm good for a whole night. Love it.
Sent from my VK810 4G using Tapatalk
18 hours off battery, 4hrs screen time, and still 19% battery.
I wouldn't care if fast charging destroyed my battery every 6 months. I'd buy another for $20, but it's not going to do that.
Ever since I first got my Note 4, I've loved two things about it more than almost everything else: battery life and charging speed.
Two nights ago, I was bored and - I know, it's a strange thing to do when bored - decided to see how fast fast charging was compared to normal charging. It took my phone about 123 minutes to fully charge from 0 to 100% with fast charging disabled.
But that's not what I care about. What I care about is the fact that, before I disabled fast charging and fully charged my phone from 0, I would typically have about 10% left after a twelve hour cycle that included around 5 hours of screen-on time.
After my slower charge, I found that, after about 11 hours, I'd had my screen on for 4.5 hours, and my battery was still sitting at 55%. This improvement absolutely astounded me, and I want to encourage all of you to see how your mileage varies (or perhaps doesn't) by disabling fast charging.
I'd like to add that I've always been a huge proponent of fast charging, and I've always dismissed the common notion that it's bad for a phone's battery. But I can't ignore my own results.
EDIT: I should add that this was without power-saving mode or airplane mode enabled at any point in time. And the screen brightness was set to the same value I use generally, and not the minimum I'd use in total darkness.
I haven't used fast charge except for the first few days I had the phone. I just never needed my phone charged fast.
I can get about 6.5 hours of screen on time with around 20% battery left on power saving mode.
droidx2.3.3 said:
I haven't used fast charge except for the first few days I had the phone. I just never needed my phone charged fast.
I can get about 6.5 hours of screen on time with around 20% battery left on power saving mode.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd had fast charge enabled until two days ago because I never saw anything but advantages to it. I also should add that I don't use power saving features until I'm down to at least down to 15%. Glad to hear you're getting good performance
I only use fast charging. If I do a heavy use day, I get about 5-5.5 hours of SOT and run out. Not sure how long it lasts.
On average, I charge my phone every third day and get 4-4.5 SOT.
I think my battery life is pretty exceptional. I don't leave the phone on the charger overnight, it gets unplugged immediately and I usually put it on the charger around 15 percent.
Yes, I"m not a heavy user usually. Depends on my work load, sometimes it only lasts two days.
I remember hearing this back in the day. Users reported that trickle charging (ie. Usb to computer) would yield better battery life.
I was curious if this would be the case when I first heard about the fast charging when the note 4 was released, but I haven't tested it yet.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/xperia-z/help/trickle-charging-improve-battery-life-t2332947
I use a spare oem battery/cradle charger. Which does not have fast charging, so the battery would technically be charged slower than through the phone with fast charging. I haven't noticed any difference in battery life between the two.
Then again, my phone usage changes by the time I swap batteries.
Sent from my Note 4.
I guess I'm different than most. It's nothing for me to kill a battery in a work day. When I'm 50% +/- I'll plug in because I never know when I'll need a full charge or where I will be an need it. When going out of town I typically will carry at least one of my two backup battery packs.
I will keep power saving mode on and my screen at full brightness. No WiFi enabled but I do use BT from time to time.
5.5 to 6 hours usage sounds about right for me. 24-48 hours on one charge and I say someone isn't using their phone enough.... LoL
Im running Pac Rom 5.1.1 on Note 4 DE and the charger definitely makes a difference.
A "normal" charger (pretty much anything under 2.1A) will charge much slower than a 2.1A charger.
mithusingh32 said:
Im running Pac Rom 5.1.1 on Note 4 DE and the charger definitely makes a difference.
A "normal" charger (pretty much anything under 2.1A) will charge much slower than a 2.1A charger.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But have you noticed any difference in your battery life after a fast charge vs a slow charge?
Bicknasty said:
But have you noticed any difference in your battery life after a fast charge vs a slow charge?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You guy need to repeat this charging business in a scientific test manner.
For example.
1) Discharge to 50%-80% (choose a level.)
2) Slow charge to 100%.
3) Run a loop of a video at some preset brightness, not auto, until the battery is at 50%-80% again. Note the time.
4) Fast charge to 100%.
5) Repeat 3 in the exact same way.
Then compare the times of video playback for the two charging techniques.
My guess is that if you were to do it right, you would get identical results.
nabbed said:
You guy need to repeat this charging business in a scientific test manner.
For example.
1) Discharge to 50%-80% (choose a level.)
2) Slow charge to 100%.
3) Run a loop of a video at some preset brightness, not auto, until the battery is at 50%-80% again. Note the time.
4) Fast charge to 100%.
5) Repeat 3 in the exact same way.
Then compare the times of video playback for the two charging techniques.
My guess is that if you were to do it right, you would get identical results.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You'd also have to play a movie that is stored on phone and go on airplane mode, since signal strengths change power usage of radio.
Slow and steady wins the endurance race
Owners of electric rc cars/planes often charge lipo batteries to tailor their output for various track conditions. Faster higher voltage charges are more punchy and have increased output but suffer shorter run times. Slower lower voltage = milder output and longer run times.
Jugger naut said:
Owners of electric rc cars/planes often charge lipo batteries to tailor their output for various track conditions. Faster higher voltage charges are more punchy and have increased output but suffer shorter run times. Slower lower voltage = milder output and longer run times.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Slower or faster discharge in an electrical motor depends on how much and how fast the motor can consume energy and how quickly a battery can dispense it - this relates directly to the performance of the motor like horsepower and torque. The charge used up is still the same. The amount of electricity stored depends only on the chemical composition of the battery, not on how you charge it. So faster or slower discharge still uses up the same amount of electricity - the energy stored/dispensed remains the same.
On the other hand, in a very demanding situation like RC, a faster charge can afford a faster peak discharge rate of battery. This is due to how the chemicals in LiPo batteries undergo transformations between homogeneous and heterogeneous states depending on the rate of charge. The faster the charge, the faster the maximum rate of discharge. A common misconception is that a slower rate of charge will amount to more charge stored. That is generally incorrect. Slower charging can only benefit the useful lifetime of the battery.
A display or a cpu of a smartphone are unlike an electrical motor in that they consume the same nominal amount of energy for a given task and at a very low rate. The rate of energy consumption for a smartphone is far lower than the possible rate of discharge of the battery is has.
For example, you can charge (and discharge) a battery in smartphone like S6 in about 80 minutes (and that is still FAR slower than you can possibly charge/discharge such a battery.) But the battery will last many many hours even under the heaviest load. So slower charging is pointless for smartphones.
I'm wondering if the heat I hear about being generated before the charging rate slows down after 50% would have any negative impact on battery life. Would there be any benefit in using my multi-port charger for overnight charges when I am not in a hurry to charge the battery?
Also, I assume that the battery doesn't have any memory, and that there's no reason to break it in, fully discharge periodically, etc. and that it's okay to charge a little or a lot regardless of the current charge state. Is that correct?
This is a question i would like to know the answer to as well
I did a slow charge last night and the battery seemed to discharge s little slower this morning fwiw, but that's not terribly scientific.
Sent from my XT1575 using XDA Free mobile app
There's already a thread for this. No, it doe not harm battery life.
Darnell_Chat_TN said:
There's already a thread for this. No, it doe not harm battery life.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Could you please point me towards that thread? I didn't locate it with a few search combinations. Thanks.
Mississip said:
I'm wondering if the heat I hear about being generated before the charging rate slows down after 50% would have any negative impact on battery life. Would there be any benefit in using my multi-port charger for overnight charges when I am not in a hurry to charge the battery?
Also, I assume that the battery doesn't have any memory, and that there's no reason to break it in, fully discharge periodically, etc. and that it's okay to charge a little or a lot regardless of the current charge state. Is that correct?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fast Charging Lithium = Battery damage. It's basic chemistry. The cells take mechanical damage from expanding too quickly. So, for best longevity, charge her with like a .7 to 1 amp charger.
Locklear308 said:
Fast Charging Lithium = Battery damage. It's basic chemistry. The cells take mechanical damage from expanding too quickly. So, for best longevity, charge her with like a .7 to 1 amp charger.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
wrong. the only thing that damages cells is charging beyond the voltage specifications. How fast you dump electrons in has no negative effects, its only when you put too many in that batteries get damaged.
Locklear308 said:
Fast Charging Lithium = Battery damage. It's basic chemistry. The cells take mechanical damage from expanding too quickly. So, for best longevity, charge her with like a .7 to 1 amp charger.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you. I had thought the same thing. No one had the time to give me any detailed information, so I researched. I can't post links, but the following articles are helpful and will show up first in a search for the title
'Will speed chargers kill your battery?'
'BU-401a: Fast and Ultra-fast Chargers'
A conventional phone charger can only supply the current and voltage that is safe for a battery at all charge levels. In other words, it is must use the least common denominator. Quick Charge makes this process much more active by monitoring max current, max voltage, and temperature so that it can supply more power when it is safe and less power when it is not. Quick Charge will always keep the current, voltage, and temperature within the battery's designed specifications.
In terms of battery memory effect, no, modern lithium based batteries do not have any sort of memory-like effect. This is mostly associated with older and cheaper NiCad type batteries. This is one of those things that people seem to have a really hard time moving past.
People worry far too much about babying their battery.
Assuming you are going to use the phone for ~2 years then a properly designed fast charger should have a negligible effect on battery life. After 2 years of continuous usage all bets are off whether you used a fast charger or not.
If you really want to worry about how to treat your battery then there are two things you should try not to do. Don't let the battery go all the way to 0% and let it sit like that for a year. Don't leave your phone on your dash in direct sunlight everyday. Outside of those two things there's not much you can do to change the lifetime of your battery so just use the damn thing. =P
dalingrin said:
A conventional phone charger can only supply the current and voltage that is safe for a battery at all charge levels. In other words, it is must use the least common denominator. Quick Charge makes this process much more active by monitoring max current, max voltage, and temperature so that it can supply more power when it is safe and less power when it is not. Quick Charge will always keep the current, voltage, and temperature within the battery's designed specifications.
In terms of battery memory effect, no, modern lithium based batteries do not have any sort of memory-like effect. This is mostly associated with older and cheaper NiCad type batteries. This is one of those things that people seem to have a really hard time moving past.
People worry far too much about babying their battery.
Assuming you are going to use the phone for ~2 years then a properly designed fast charger should have a negligible effect on battery life. After 2 years of continuous usage all bets are off whether you used a fast charger or not.
If you really want to worry about how to treat your battery then there are two things you should try not to do. Don't let the battery go all the way to 0% and let it sit like that for a year. Don't leave your phone on your dash in direct sunlight everyday. Outside of those two things there's not much you can do to change the lifetime of your battery so just use the damn thing. =P
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly.
dalingrin said:
A conventional phone charger can only supply the current and voltage that is safe for a battery at all charge levels. In other words, it is must use the least common denominator. Quick Charge makes this process much more active by monitoring max current, max voltage, and temperature so that it can supply more power when it is safe and less power when it is not. Quick Charge will always keep the current, voltage, and temperature within the battery's designed specifications.
In terms of battery memory effect, no, modern lithium based batteries do not have any sort of memory-like effect. This is mostly associated with older and cheaper NiCad type batteries. This is one of those things that people seem to have a really hard time moving past.
People worry far too much about babying their battery.
Assuming you are going to use the phone for ~2 years then a properly designed fast charger should have a negligible effect on battery life. After 2 years of continuous usage all bets are off whether you used a fast charger or not.
If you really want to worry about how to treat your battery then there are two things you should try not to do. Don't let the battery go all the way to 0% and let it sit like that for a year. Don't leave your phone on your dash in direct sunlight everyday. Outside of those two things there's not much you can do to change the lifetime of your battery so just use the damn thing. =P
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I had researched the topic and learned what you have stated, but I really appreciate you taking the time to write this fuller explanation. I wished to take every reasonable precaution to maximize battery life, given the battery is not easily replaced.
There have been references published claiming that charging faster (higher current) shortens overall Li-Ion battery life.
Mechanism may be related to heat.
One thing the Qualcomm Quick Charge 2.0 (used in the Snapdragon 808) does is increase voltage at the charger from standard USB 5V, to 9V and 12V, for higher charge rates (power) at still-moderate current (to keep heat dissipation down).
I measured 1.1 to 2.3 amps at ~9V with QC 2.0 charger on the MXPE, with the higher current measurements at lower State of Charge (SoC). Have not seen 12V yet, but I only tried it down to 45% SoC (2.3 amps at 9V), I imagine it bumps up to 12V when the battery is discharged further, nearer to complete discharge.
This charger is rated for
5V, 4A
9V, 2.22A
12V, 2.5A
20V, 1.0A
So the max power fed to the battery would be 28W (12V*2.5A).
(This is the Power Partners PEAW30-12-USB, supposedly a 30W charger. So much for integrity in advertising.)
So the current is kept to a manageable level to control heat dissipation (therefore max temperatures), from the charger to (somewhere in the phone). But I believe that at the battery itself, more rapid charging (higher power) would still require higher current, because voltages have to be limited in the battery itself, so one would think heat dissipation (> max temperatures) would still be a problem in the battery itself. Does that shorten battery life?
The answer is probably: Who cares. Because: Li-Ion batteries have a 2-3 year life in any case, regardless of their service life or even if they are not used at all. They age and exhibit substantial capacity decline over time. Discharge/charge cycles hasten the capacity decline, but the battery is only good for 2-3 years, give or take, no matter what. And since aftermarket replacement batteries are inferior, unsafe, and stale, there is no reason to try to hang on to your phone for more than 2-3 years in any case. (Especially since the "non-user-replaceable" batteries can be a pain in the a** to R&R. The Moto X Pure 2015 battery is one of those. Some phones actually incur permanent damage to seals if the battery is removed/replaced - the Kyocera Hydro Wave is this way.)
You say "but you could replace the battery with an OEM battery". There are two types of OEM Li-Ion phone batteries on the market that an individual consumer can buy retail, when their phone is 2 years old or more: Used stale batteries (look up "reverse logistics"), and "new" (i.e. not put into service yet) stale batteries. Good luck finding a fresh, new OEM Li-Ion battery for your 2 year old or older phone (out of production for at least a year).
Been down this road before. Wasted lots of time and money replacing phone batteries after 2-3 years. From now on I'm going to stop coddling phone batteries, stop replacing them after 2-3 years, and just figure on a new phone every 2-3 years. It's the only way to get a fresh, new Li-Ion phone battery. (And get the phone right when it is released, like the MXPE this month. That way you are more sure the battery is fresh.)
I think everything in the wireless phone paradigm is increasingly heading that way anyway. Everything, and I mean everything, pushes the market to a 2 year product life cycle. Batteries last 2 years. Increasingly, batteries are not made to be replaceable. Carriers are changing networks so fast you need a new phone every 2 for that alone. New OS/SW overloads hardware older than 2 years. Displays may fade over a couple years. USB connectors wear out. Just relax and go with it. Marvel at the Qualcomm Quick Charge 2.0 (I am). You'll be happier with a new phone every 2 years.
Sorry for the long rant.
Sorry for the kind of off topic, but it's kind of related... is it okay to use other devices with the included fast charger? I just hate having 2 micro usb chargers plugged in, when I could use just one
Sent from my XT1575 using XDA Free mobile app
crash613 said:
Sorry for the kind of off topic, but it's kind of related... is it okay to use other devices with the included fast charger? I just hate having 2 micro usb chargers plugged in, when I could use just one
Sent from my XT1575 using XDA Free mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, the Moto Turbo Charger can be used with any MicroUSB charging device. It will adjust charging as needed for the individual device. Moto made the Turbo Charger, to be a single charger for all MicroUSB devices.
If the battery is kept well charged, which Turbo Charging helps to accomplish. That's better to me, than more drain and slower chargers that leave the battery more drained overall. The batteries are supposed to last longer when kept fully charged more often.
crash613 said:
Sorry for the kind of off topic, but it's kind of related... is it okay to use other devices with the included fast charger? I just hate having 2 micro usb chargers plugged in, when I could use just one
Sent from my XT1575 using XDA Free mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
"...since Quick Charge 2.0 is compatible and interoperable, a certified adapter can be used with a non-Quick Charge 2.0 device, though the fast charging benefits of Quick Charge 2.0 will not be available. "
https://www.qualcomm.com/products/snapdragon/quick-charge/faq
By all appearances, Motorola's "TurboPower™ Charging" is nothing more than Qualcomm Quick Charge 2.0. (That's what Snapdragon 808 in the XT1575 uses.)
The third-party Qualcomm Quick Charge 2.0 chargers I bought are recognized as "Turbo" and function with the XT1575, just like the Motorola charger that came with the XT1575.
(There are a LOT of Qualcomm-certified QC 2.0 chargers for sale by third-party names. Qualcomm has been BUSY. )
To slow charge a S7, do we have to turn off fast charging from the settings and then charge via the charger that came with the phone(the so called fast charger) or should we use a charger from an old phone say SIII etc.?
Does this hold true for Motorola's phone also which have turbo charging option?
Also how to measure battery cycles? Any credible app for the same?
billubakra said:
To slow charge a S7, do we have to turn off fast charging from the settings and then charge via the charger that came with the phone(the so called fast charger) or should we use a charger from an old phone say SIII etc.?
Does this hold true for Motorola's phone also which have turbo charging option?
Also how to measure battery cycles? Any credible app for the same?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Moto doesn't have the option in settings, it uses industry standard Qualcomm Quick Charge standard rather than a OS hack like Samsung (no offense)... If it is connected to a QC 2.0 charger, it will negotiate the appropriate charge rate, if it is connected to a "standard" charger it will charge normally.
I don't think you can accurately measure battery/charge cycles... even if you could it would be extremely deceiving, what would be considered a cycle? Charging at 50%, 30%, 10%, and to what point 75%, 80%, 100%? Too much room for interpretation here that could be swayed either way depending on the person/app counting it's point of view.
acejavelin said:
Moto doesn't have the option in settings, it uses industry standard Qualcomm Quick Charge standard rather than a OS hack like Samsung (no offense)... If it is connected to a QC 2.0 charger, it will negotiate the appropriate charge rate, if it is connected to a "standard" charger it will charge normally.
I don't think you can accurately measure battery/charge cycles... even if you could it would be extremely deceiving, what would be considered a cycle? Charging at 50%, 30%, 10%, and to what point 75%, 80%, 100%? Too much room for interpretation here that could be swayed either way depending on the person/app counting it's point of view.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for replying dear. So, for S7 I have turned off fast charge, should I now charge via the charger that came with the phone(the so called fast charger) or should we use a charger from an old phone say SIII etc.?
For Moto G, the question is the same as above.
Of the little what I have understood from various threads here is to charge the battery when it is between 20-40% to 80-90% if you want to have a good battery life. I used to do the complete opposite charge, when the battery is at say 6-7% and charge it till it is maxed. I used to do the same for my laptop, any other tip for the battery?
And I have signed your petition Brother. I hope they listen to the users.
billubakra said:
Thanks for replying dear. So, for S7 I have turned off fast charge, should I now charge via the charger that came with the phone(the so called fast charger) or should we use a charger from an old phone say SIII etc.?
For Moto G, the question is the same as above.
Of the little what I have understood from various threads here is to charge the battery when it is between 20-40% to 80-90% if you want to have a good battery life. I used to do the complete opposite charge, when the battery is at say 6-7% and charge it till it is maxed. I used to do the same for my laptop, any other tip for the battery?
And I have signed your petition Brother. I hope they listen to the users.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Does Fast Charge hurt the battery life, no, at least not directly... heat does. Using an older style charger will avoid Quick Charging but I think that foregoing that benefit for a few more days of battery life is hardly worth it. I frequently have 30-60 minutes to charge, not 3-5 hours, so quick charge is nice, if it takes few days off the longevity of the battery so be it. Those who think it cuts the battery life by 20, 30, even 50% are wrong, that simply isn't the case because of Fast Charge itself.
The Moto G isn't an issue here, it doesn't support Quick Charge until the 4th generation, but why give up the feature?
I don't think the "rules" of charging apply as much as people think they do... I charge mine overnight and whenever it needs it during the day, if it does. There is no need to do anything special.
acejavelin said:
Does Fast Charge hurt the battery life, no, at least not directly... heat does. Using an older style charger will avoid Quick Charging but I think that foregoing that benefit for a few more days of battery life is hardly worth it. I frequently have 30-60 minutes to charge, not 3-5 hours, so quick charge is nice, if it takes few days off the longevity of the battery so be it. Those who think it cuts the battery life by 20, 30, even 50% are wrong, that simply isn't the case because of Fast Charge itself.
The Moto G isn't an issue here, it doesn't support Quick Charge until the 4th generation, but why give up the feature?
I don't think the "rules" of charging apply as much as people think they do... I charge mine overnight and whenever it needs it during the day, if it does. There is no need to do anything special.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the wonderful and detailed reply. I am going to try, not stick, to slow charging to see the difference in heating of the battery. My SIII's charger 's input is 150-300VAC, 50-60 hz 0.15AA, output- 5.0V-1.0A and S7's details are input 100-240V 50-60hz 0.5A, output- 9.0V= 1.67 A or 5.0V=2.0A. Can I use the S3's charger to charge S7 after turning of fast charge or is there a voltage difference or something? G4 is at home, don't know about its details. Also in my country the battery or the replacement parts are way too expensive.