Related
I know there has been some discussion in this forum about just how waterproof the Z3 is exactly and how far you can push it, so I wanted to share my experience from the past week. On day two of a six day trip to St. John, USVI my GoPro developed a nice crack in its housing. Seeing as there is no Amazon Prime in St. John and certainly no Best Buy, the GoPro was effectively out-of-action. Wanting to still capture pictures of our trip I decided to put Sony's marketing to the test and it live up to it. I took it snorkeling on three different occasions, for upwards of an hour. The attached photos were taken at depths of 5-10 feet and I had the camera submerged at times for longer than hour in saltwater. The only hang-up was taking video. Since you can only use the hardware button to take pictures, I had to surface to start and stop any videos. Not a big deal, just a warning.
My only caveat is...make sure you rinse out your headphone jack. Though it is waterproof, I noticed what looked like some light corrosion after my first day (makes sense, salt water and all). From then on I made sure to rinse it down with some fresh water from a water bottle as soon as I got out of the water. No problems since.
Hope this gives everyone enough confidence to start taking their phone in the shower!
Let me know if you have any questions!
Very cool pics man, thabks for sharig your experience, im still scared to even wash my phone under the sink lol
that is amazing! you should share those pics with Sony Mobile, I'm sure they will publish it and give you some credit. Not sure how many people have done that yet!
Nice photos.
From what Sony says avoid salt water. Despite their advertising showing oceanic photos, here is their warning:
"...we wouldn't recommend using your smartphone, tablet or accessory during a sandstorm or in a hot shower. Never immerse your device in salt water or let the micro USB port, headset jack or other uncovered parts come into contact with salt water. If you're washing dishes by hand, avoid letting your device come into contact with the detergent or any other liquid chemicals."
"Should the phone be submerged in salt water it would need to be washed off in fresh water and if on warranty inspection it was evident that the seals had been damaged by salt/chlorine, warranty would be void."
This guy had it die on him in a pool:
http://www.abc.net.au/technology/articles/2014/10/15/4107561.htm
Nice pics! I'm definitely not scared to get mine wet anymore.
Sent from my Z3
Yeah, I was a little hesitant at first. Lots of quick dunks to see how it went but my confidence grew after the first few attempts went without issue. I had my Nexus 5 with me as a backup, so I figured...worst case scenario I had a backup phone.
I'm not surprised Sony doesn't recommend saltwater. Saltwater basically destroys everything it touches. Having said that, provided that you have all the ports sealed up, saltwater really shouldn't be getting in (besides the headphone jack). Makes me wonder if Sony has some water resistant coating applied to some of the internal components as a failsafe (would be effective against freshwater, but not saltwater).
Either way, I'm now 4 days after my last submersion and am experiencing no issues, so I am pretty pleased with this phone.
Very brave indeed, great pics.
Sony is a joke with it's water resistance comments, because... Hey here is our new waterproof (no it's not) (it's water resistant Sony) that you can't use in any water except a fresh water steam or lake.
Because lets face it, almost all pools contain chlorine, and almost all water around the home contains chlorine, leaving us...???
rideoutthetide said:
cool stuff
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since we know for sure that your phone is waterproof, could you please do the following test: http://forum.xda-developers.com/z3/general/guide-test-waterproofing-water-t2897886
There is a theory that the Z3 has a valve/membrane to adjust for changes in air pressure which makes the pressure go down in that test.
thanks
Finally, I can take my Z3 to sea. Thanks for those picture!
Sent from my D6653 using XDA Free mobile app
danw_oz said:
Very brave indeed, great pics.
Sony is a joke with it's water resistance comments, because... Hey here is our new waterproof (no it's not) (it's water resistant Sony) that you can't use in any water except a fresh water steam or lake.
Because lets face it, almost all pools contain chlorine, and almost all water around the home contains chlorine, leaving us...???
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Click to collapse
Just take some time and read about ip65 and ip68, sony says that you can take ur z3 to swimming pool which contains chlorine, but you have to clean it witch fresh water after this.
With salt water this is impossible, because, salt makes corride everything that it touches.
Greets, sorry for bad english
abhinav.tella said:
This guy had it die on him in a pool:
http://www.abc.net.au/technology/articles/2014/10/15/4107561.htm
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To be fair, it was a saltwater pool.
Bäcker said:
since we know for sure that your phone is waterproof, could you please do the following test: http://forum.xda-developers.com/z3/general/guide-test-waterproofing-water-t2897886
There is a theory that the Z3 has a valve/membrane to adjust for changes in air pressure which makes the pressure go down in that test.
thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I actually had read that thread beforehand and downloaded the "Sensor Sense" app which has a barometric pressure reader on it. Sure enough, if I open the MicroUSB port and apply pressure I get no movement on the pressure reading. When closed, the pressure spikes and then tends to even out.
I also ran the app and dunked it under water while running. The reading accurately changed to reflect the water pressure.
In short, I think that test works
Been watching Top Gear in the shower since I got the phone. Scared the **** out of this waiter the other day it was hilarious. He was pouring water in my cup while holding some other plates and he tried to balance out and spilled just a little bit of water on my phone. I pretended to freak out for a second then was like dude... its waterproof all is forgiven. O and I need to set something straight. Water resistant = cant be fully submerged, so the Z3 would definitely be water proof. Honestly best use I have found for this phone so far being water proof is texting/using maps in the rain.
Krustnesis said:
Just take some time and read about ip65 and ip68, sony says that you can take ur z3 to swimming pool which contains chlorine, but you have to clean it witch fresh water after this.
With salt water this is impossible, because, salt makes corride everything that it touches.
Greets, sorry for bad english
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Click to collapse
Try reading what I wrote with your bad English, what fresh water are you going to use? tap water also contains chlorine, maybe fresh water from your rain water tank? My comments are highlighting Sony's confusing and conflicting information.
And my pool contains salt and chlorine
So if u have THAT much chlorine in ur fresh water then please forgive me. FRESH WATER means WATER FROM THE TAP. Concentration of chlorine in tap water is infinitesimal.
Krustnesis said:
So if u have THAT much chlorine in ur fresh water then please forgive me. FRESH WATER means WATER FROM THE TAP. Concentration of chlorine in tap water is infinitesimal.
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Click to collapse
My pool does not have much chlorine either, so it is all relative. Same for drinking water, they all have sanitiser in it, unless you have to filter it. And Sony have stated that if they see that salt or chlorine have eaten away at the seals then no warranty, what they haven't offered anyone is what is a safe level of chlorine in the water not to damage the seals.
Despite the deceptive oceanic adverts by Sony, I never really intended to splash this phone. I see water proofing as a plus against accidental spills etc.
I always use soap and water under the tap to clean my Z3 every few days when it gets dirty/fingerprints/etc.
Most people are too chicken with the phone that's actually officially rated waterproof. My year old Z1 been through lakes and pools and I didn't even bother wash it after chlorine water and it still looks like new. I do agree that you have to rinse after salt water.
rideoutthetide said:
. The only hang-up was taking video. Since you can only use the hardware button to take pictures, I had to surface to start and stop any videos. Not a big deal, just a warning.
Let me know if you have any questions!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To use the camera underwater you have to enable "Touch Screen Lock" in the camera settings. Then use the physical camera button to snap pictures and the volume rocker to shoot video.
http://www.phonearena.com/news/How-...with-the-Sony-Xperia-Z3-or-Z3-Compact_id61505
Accidentally had some drops of water land from my hands after washing land on the phone while it was charging - could this water damage my phone and corrode it? Seemed to be minimal. Could light rain or holding the device with wet hands damage it as well?
binaryfalcon said:
Accidentally had some drops of water land from my hands after washing land on the phone while it was charging - could this water damage my phone and corrode it? Seemed to be minimal. Could light rain or holding the device with wet hands damage it as well?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Unless you get water in the ports, I doubt touching it with wet hands will matter.
Water on the device is not an issue.
Water in the device or device submerged is a problem.
tech_head said:
Unless you get water in the ports, I doubt touching it with wet hands will matter.
Water on the device is not an issue.
Water in the device or device submerged is a problem.
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Click to collapse
I guess the chance of water going inside the ports in my chance was slim - is there any way to check for water damage?
binaryfalcon said:
I guess the chance of water going inside the ports in my chance was slim - is there any way to check for water damage?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No that I know of.
I dropped mine yesterday and it hit my cat's water dish. Some water splashed onto the back of the phone, but none got into the ports. *phew*
(Admittedly this was the first time I've gone and dropped a phone by accident - testing a ruggedized case for my old Galaxy S III doesn't count)
Man these phones are all pretty sealed. I never worry about water ever. I had a ten minute phone conversation yesterday standing in the rain.
I've used my phones when it was raining out and while having wet hands, haven't had an issue nor complaints about there being water damage to the phone.
Don't worry about it.
...... Rescinded
Well yes. Samsung said "water resistant", not "water proof", which means it's supposed to resist against water under certain conditions (up to 1.5m for 30mins), not function under it. The capacitive screen and capacitive buttons work with anything that holds an electrical charge, including pool water because it contains ions in it, so that's why they were being pressed.
But indeed, you are right with about not intentionally doing anything out of the ordinary, trying to test the water resistance. It is more of a safety feature, and Samsung is mistaking by advertising otherwise (they don't always do this).
I tried it several times - dived under water and take pictures with it or videos and everything is working just fine. But as I am reading more and more things about non water proof s7 edge I am starting to think that next time I better wont take my phone under water.
You don't understand physics,don't you? You can submerge the phone in shallow water - let's say it drops in your cereal bowl.
But if you take it to the pool and swim with it this is what gonna happen - you swim - therefore you move - the water "hits" your phone with a certain pressure,depending on your swimming speed.
So if you put your phone in a bowl with water and MOVE the phone very fast the water pressure on the ports will be like it's submerged under 10 feet of water
You get it? It's for accidents,its not the bext Go Pro Pool Edition.
I am really curious,if you buy a hatchet,do you try to cut your fingers with it to see if it works?
People will come here to inform themselves about the phone,maybe they want to buy it.
What they see? A post about a faulty phone - guess what - samsung never said about WATERPROOF - its WATERRESISTANT. Stop spreading these false informations.
I swum with the edge several times and never had a problem with it. I took some beautiful pictures under water. My experience is no guarantee for everybody
Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G925F met Tapatalk
Mehigh101 said:
You don't understand physics,don't you? You can submerge the phone in shallow water - let's say it drops in your cereal bowl.
But if you take it to the pool and swim with it this is what gonna happen - you swim - therefore you move - the water "hits" your phone with a certain pressure,depending on your swimming speed.
So if you put your phone in a bowl with water and MOVE the phone very fast the water pressure on the ports will be like it's submerged under 10 feet of water
You get it? It's for accidents,its not the bext Go Pro Pool Edition.
I am really curious,if you buy a hatchet,do you try to cut your fingers with it to see if it works?
People will come here to inform themselves about the phone,maybe they want to buy it.
What they see? A post about a faulty phone - guess what - samsung never said about WATERPROOF - its WATERRESISTANT. Stop spreading these false informations.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I didnt swim, I submerged it underwater for 4 seconds. Not more than that. it wasnt deep. just under the surface,
I didnt stop people from buying it, its the best samsung phone i have ever owned. I just wanted to caution them to not try submerging it without any reason, just to be safe. i dont think i said it will be the same for everybody. I shared my scary experience. thats all?
Mehigh101 said:
You don't understand physics,don't you? You can submerge the phone in shallow water - let's say it drops in your cereal bowl.
But if you take it to the pool and swim with it this is what gonna happen - you swim - therefore you move - the water "hits" your phone with a certain pressure,depending on your swimming speed.
So if you put your phone in a bowl with water and MOVE the phone very fast the water pressure on the ports will be like it's submerged under 10 feet of water
You get it? It's for accidents,its not the bext Go Pro Pool Edition.
I am really curious,if you buy a hatchet,do you try to cut your fingers with it to see if it works?
People will come here to inform themselves about the phone,maybe they want to buy it.
What they see? A post about a faulty phone - guess what - samsung never said about WATERPROOF - its WATERRESISTANT. Stop spreading these false informations.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Calm down and dont say crap that doesnt interest anyone. thx
marahlad said:
I am starting to think that next time I better wont take my phone under water.
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You should have had this brilliant thought from the beginning. This feature is just meant to save your phone and money in an unfortunate situation.
Cst79 said:
You should have had this brilliant thought from the beginning. This feature is just meant to save your phone and money in an unfortunate situation.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I dont want to know your opinion about how am I using MY phone. I am just sharing my experiences about this topic.
Cst79 said:
You should have had this brilliant thought from the beginning. This feature is just meant to save your phone and money in an unfortunate situation.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really?
Samsung doesn't really portray it is such in their advertisements!
https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=Q_8AYvFrLO0
It's all very well being judgemental, but when Samsung put out adverts like this you'd have a put the blame on Samsung for actively encouraging people to dunk their phones!
Regards,
Dave
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
marahlad said:
Calm down and dont say crap that doesnt interest anyone. thx
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, it's not crap, it's educational, which you seem to be allergic to, hence your weird reaction. Secondly, I find it pretty interesting so your last statement is wrong, thus I'm gonna have to ask you to stop talking on behalf of other people. You certainly don't know sh*t about anyone around here. Summary: The only one talking crap here would be you.
It wasn't meant to be used underwater. It's kinda like a safety feature if you accidentally dropped it in water and quickly react to taking it out. Pretty sure pool water has various salts so that kinda factors in too.
Sent from my Moto G using Tapatalk
gessus wessus... doesn't matter what word or definition is used, the s7 phone has good gaskets and can exceed the ipx ratings stated which is total submersion for the defined period of time.
The next time you spend a weeks wage on a water resistant phone, briefly inspect the ports and make sure they are sealed and put the phone underwater for the stated amount of time and if it breaks get a refund because it's defective, if it works, then you're good to go.
mine has survived the pool and the beach many times ( I spray water repellent on it for salt water use, the non electrical conducting lubricants, before and after, e.g inox marine, wd40 isn't as good but cheaper and comes in a tiny pen style dispenser).
foxmeister said:
Really?
Samsung doesn't really portray it is such in their advertisements!
https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=Q_8AYvFrLO0
It's all very well being judgemental, but when Samsung put out adverts like this you'd have a put the blame on Samsung for actively encouraging people to dunk their phones!
Regards,
Dave
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its champagne resistant...
There are also many ways to damaged or destroy the seals in the s7 edge.
Like salt water, water with chlor, bending the phone in tight jeans....
I can vouch for the high quality water resistance. Even with the S5 I had 3 good years of using it as a snorkeling camera, shower radio and regularly washing it under the tap to freshen it up. It became a hand me down to my little cousin as soon as the S7 was released. I now do the same with my S7 all the time, it's even more water resistant than the S5 and it was advertised as an underwater camera. It works flawlessly. I even rinse it off to cool it down after long sessions of VR. It drops from 35 degrees Celsius to 25 in 5 seconds. Stop being so paranoid. The phone is really as water resistant as it claims to be. The only reason why it's not "water proof" is because there is no industrial standard by which you can call something water proof.
Well a friend of mine left his S7E in a hottub at 80c and 1.5m underwater for anhour phone still works just fine.
+1 Well said. LOL!!!
nitrous² said:
Well, it's not crap, it's educational, which you seem to be allergic to, hence your weird reaction. Secondly, I find it pretty interesting so your last statement is wrong, thus I'm gonna have to ask you to stop talking on behalf of other people. You certainly don't know sh*t about anyone around here. Summary: The only one talking crap here would be you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
indigobv said:
Well yes. Samsung said "water resistant", not "water proof", which means it's supposed to resist against water under certain conditions (up to 1.5m for 30mins), not function under it. The capacitive screen and capacitive buttons work with anything that holds an electrical charge, including pool water because it contains ions in it, so that's why they were being pressed.
But indeed, you are right with about not intentionally doing anything out of the ordinary, trying to test the water resistance. It is more of a safety feature, and Samsung is mistaking by advertising otherwise (they don't always do this).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sooo, I did test the phone half submerged in a gently flowing river and I can tell you that it isn't waterproof under that condition. Condensation under the camera lens showed up within 1/2 an hour. Screen started going purple within hours. Take this as an example of a real world test.
ok, how about using it under the rain? i wouldn't dip it in pool water but anyone tried using it in the rain?
(ALERT: Dumb question coming up!)
Hi,
So I've made my switch from iPhone 6 to S8 and have never used a waterproof phone before.
I wanted to ask if there any precautions to take (and avoid electrocution).
For instance, plugging headphones or chargers (both wires and wireless) just after getting it soaked. Or is it good to go?
It will give you a warning if there's moisture in the ports. Usually blowing excess moisture out (kinda like blowing the cartridge of a Gameboy game) and waiting a few minutes will let it dry out sufficiently enough for use. As far as I know, this works for the usb port, not sure about the headphone jack though. I can only assume that would be the case. Regardless, you'll be physically safe.
Correction, this phone is NOT waterproof. It is water & dust resistant rated at IP68. Meaning it is water resistant up to 1.5 meters of water for 30 minutes.
So you should not go swimming with it in your pocket or driving trips in the ocean or you will have a expensive paper weight.
nappent said:
Correction, this phone is NOT waterproof. It is water & dust resistant rated at IP68. Meaning it is water resistant up to 1.5 meters of water for 30 minutes.
So you should not go swimming with it in your pocket or driving trips in the ocean or you will have a expensive paper weight.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So what you just said is that you can go into 4 feet of underwater for no more then 30 mins and it will be waterproof.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WXWwaBUEG8 for proof of what they mean.
Taking it in water will still trigger the water detecting stickers and could affect warranty. At least that was the case with the S7.
nappent said:
Correction, this phone is NOT waterproof. It is water & dust resistant rated at IP68. Meaning it is water resistant up to 1.5 meters of water for 30 minutes.
So you should not go swimming with it in your pocket or driving trips in the ocean or you will have a expensive paper weight.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1. It's a convenience feature, in case of accidental splash or drop into a sink or something. It's not for taking underwater selfies as Samsung's advertisers may imply.
Last year Sony ran their whole Xeperia Campaign showing the phone under water and being used under water etc.
Soon after they had to put a disclaimer out saying do not use in water!
It's all a marketing trick. When these phones are tested they are not powered on and in use at the labs.
It's common sense really, Electricity & Water do not mix well.
The Root said:
Taking it in water will still trigger the water detecting stickers and could affect warranty. At least that was the case with the S7.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The water damage stickers are located inside the sim slot, and the sim slot has a water sealing gasket around it, so submerging in water would not trigger the damage sticker. If water were to seep in beyond the gaskets, then the sticker would be triggered.
Mysticales said:
So what you just said is that you can go into 4 feet of underwater for no more then 30 mins and it will be waterproof.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WXWwaBUEG8 for proof of what they mean.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm sure you are just messing around, but no, still incorrect. Water resistance to 4 feet for 30 mins.
Water resistance is not the same as waterproof. In fact very few things are waterproof.
Water-resistant: able to resist the penetration of water to some degree but not entirely.
Waterproof: impervious to water.
Source: http://www.hzo.com/waterresistant-waterrepellent-waterproof-whats-difference/
abdullaha said:
The water damage stickers are located inside the sim slot, and the sim slot has a water sealing gasket around it, so submerging in water would not trigger the damage sticker. If water were to seep in beyond the gaskets, then the sticker would be triggered.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did they get rid of the ones that used to be in the headphone jack?
The Root said:
Did they get rid of the ones that used to be in the headphone jack?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I just got my plus today, and I cannot see it through the headphone jack.
hi, dear all
I want to ask a simple but important question, does any one ever put Samsung S8 into water for over one hour test?
how about its waterproof function?
Samsung STATES that the phone is water resistant not water proof. The phone it self can be used under water but for 15 minutes and 1 and a half meter depth. I wouldn't use it underwater for more than 5 minutes. I mean consider yourself underwater for more than 5 minutes holding your phone. Its kind of impossible and if you actually do it you go against Samsung's guideline. Don't risk your phone for silly videos. Not worth it
not for this long because I dont need to test this myself - enough youtube vids for that
every now and then I put it under water or rinse under the water tap to clean my device - no problem so far
FloM94 said:
not for this long because I dont need to test this myself - enough youtube vids for that
every now and then I put it under water or rinse under the water tap to clean my device - no problem so far
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's always the small chance of water getting through especially as you use the device over few months with some deterioration. Just check your sim tray seal and make sure it's all good. And remember water damage isn't covered under warranty. Enjoy it anyway you like.
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
I would not put it under water under any circustance.
Jesus lol why would you do this. It is there in case of an accident, not to try and dunk for something to do. I guess maybe if you have lots of money and don't care about having to buy another one.
tasked28m said:
Samsung STATES that the phone is water resistant not water proof. The phone it self can be used under water but for 15 minutes and 1 and a half meter depth. I wouldn't use it underwater for more than 5 minutes. I mean consider yourself underwater for more than 5 minutes holding your phone. Its kind of impossible and if you actually do it you go against Samsung's guideline. Don't risk your phone for silly videos. Not worth it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
so it means if i drop it into water, i pick it up wihin 15 minutes, then it will not harm to my phone, right?
FloM94 said:
not for this long because I dont need to test this myself - enough youtube vids for that
every now and then I put it under water or rinse under the water tap to clean my device - no problem so far
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
haha, it sounds like washing clothes, i just worry when i take photo on a river or sea, if it is drop into water, i hope i took it up and no problem at all
crixley said:
Jesus lol why would you do this. It is there in case of an accident, not to try and dunk for something to do. I guess maybe if you have lots of money and don't care about having to buy another one.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
oh, no no no, just because i think it is too expensive, so i will imagine if bad things happen, how will it be terrible
bushako said:
There's always the small chance of water getting through especially as you use the device over few months with some deterioration. Just check your sim tray seal and make sure it's all good. And remember water damage isn't covered under warranty. Enjoy it anyway you like.
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you mean if i drop my phone not on purpose, the seller will not give warranty?
myefox.it said:
so it means if i drop it into water, i pick it up wihin 15 minutes, then it will not harm to my phone, right?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I personally used it even at the beach. No harm done. Have it in mind that the 1.5m is pressure related so pressure is the main issue here not depth itself. So be careful on how you position your phone in the water and by all means don't apply in unnecessary pressure on the phone like diving and holding your phone or throwing the phone in the water from a height etc. Its all about usage.
myefox.it said:
you mean if i drop my phone not on purpose, the seller will not give warranty?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just remember that the phone was tested and certified for 1.5M at 30minutes under a very controlled environment. When you take it out and about in a pool or beach or under a faucet there's many factors that could lead to water entering into sensitive components. The speaker and Mic grill/mesh is still semi permeable and enough pressure from a faucet or even steam can pass through and accumulate.
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
bushako said:
Just remember that the phone was tested and certified for 1.5M at 30minutes under a very controlled environment. When you take it out and about in a pool or beach or under a faucet there's many factors that could lead to water entering into sensitive components. The speaker and Mic grill/mesh is still semi permeable and enough pressure from a faucet or even steam can pass through and accumulate.
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
oh, thank you for explaination
Also, the water they use it supposedly "pure" water. Most water we have around us has extra chemicals in it...
Most tap waters have chlorine in it and some other chemicals (like flouride) though this is dependant on location.
Sea water has salts in it.
Over time the rubber seal that makes these phones IP68 rated WILL deteriorate. This can be sped up by these additives in the waters around us...
Just a heads up....
ultramag69 said:
Also, the water they use it supposedly "pure" water. Most water we have around us has extra chemicals in it...
Most tap waters have chlorine in it and some other chemicals (like flouride) though this is dependant on location.
Sea water has salts in it.
Over time the rubber seal that makes these phones IP68 rated WILL deteriorate. This can be sped up by these additives in the waters around us...
Just a heads up....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
oh, very good advice