Important update 11/9/18:
Android Pie seems to have fixed the digital gain defaulting to max. This means that the stock implementation is now optimal and using the gain control app is not needed (unless you want more voltage from a Dragonfly Red).
This was not announced anywhere to my knowledge, but is very pleasant surprise. I found it accidentally while testing the new dongle (above link).
Updated: Edit--I did some further tests and unfortunately the gain optimization only seems to work with line in mode, not with a "forced" headset scenario. So with a headset inserted, the distortion bands are still present.
As of the Nov patch, Pie on the Pixel has fixed both the line out and headset mode distortion banding when using the Google DAC.
When looking at the tracings, assume that stock will look as good as the optimized.
Made a simple spreadsheet with data so far:
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The above numbers are using my gain control app, android volume at 25/25 to produce the best possible output signal
Note, the voltage at distortion threshold is the point where harmonic banding becomes >5 dB.
The THD is the harmonic distortion at 250 mV, this would be about 90 dB using full size cans like the Senn 650/800 that have a sensitivity of 103 dB/V.
Will work on uploading the exact images if anyone is interested.
Stepped sine tests at higher output (750mV) - An attempt to see how high impedance, lower sensitivity full size cans will effect distortion.
Edit: I updated the measurements and comments
Edit: Tested Apple USB C Dac
Edit: Tested the HTC dongle
Edit: Tested the Razer Dac
Edit: Tested the Realtec Dac
Edit: Tested the Geekria Dac
Edit: Tested the Audiolab USB device
Edit: Brief test of Dragonfly red. I would consider this to be the gold standard, very low impedance (<.1), minimal crosstalk, high volt out (not on stock), very low distortion.
Edit: There appears to be 3 (at least) "modes" that the Google dongle will do. Depending on the impedance of the headset/line out device attached, the output voltage varies quite a bit.
Low impedance - .36 Volt (high efficiency iem's)
High impedance - .9 Volt (full size headphones)
Very high impedance- 1.8 Volt (line out)
What gets interesting is the effects on testing. The "reference" sites like GSMarena, are testing with a Y cable setup (as I was) and will see high voltage out even with headphones attached since the use case was taken from the line out initially. What made me aware of this was that my app was not reading the Spl correctly, as if the max voltage was about 7 dB down (which it was). Also of note, the reduction in output is not due to a change in the Dac digital gain (the one that adjust from 1 to 175), so the distortion bands are just as bad since they kept that gain at 175.
RMAA:
Used both a Senn 800S and Shure 846 as load, as well as no load.
Note the flat FR on the SE 846 which verifies the low impedance above.
So superb impedance, great voltage out, pretty good crosstalk (with low impedance iems).
But, significant distortion using stock gain settings:
And it has 25 volume steps (each tick is 2.3 dB).
going to subscribe for those that have invested in 3.5mm portable audiophile amps/iems.
Nice work. Subscribed!
By the way, very nice headphones. I'm looking forward to testing out LDAC on my MDR-1000Xs when my Pixel arrives.
Hi bjmrd,
So I was looking at the Phone arena review in regards to the audio quality through the dongle.
It showed this
Not sure if this means the 2XL is weaker than the 2?
What does your test conclude? Would this device provide a nice audio experience for the user ?
This is important to me as I use 3.5mm headphones.
Thanks in advance,
Previous devices are the V20 (superb) and the non DAC G6.
I double checked my voltage measurements and they seem correct (compared to a dragonfly red).
The dongle may contain a DAC (like apple lightening). It is possible that with root, ALSA, some of the distortion can be reduced if so. Certainly the voltage is good, impedance great.
Oh and each volume tick is about 2.5 dB.
Addendum - The dongle definitely has a DAC
I have ordered a USB audio pass through cable to see if onboard analog is enabled
bjrmd said:
I double checked my voltage measurements and they seem correct (compared to a dragonfly red).
The dongle may contain a DAC (like apple lightening). It is possible that with root, ALSA, some of the distortion can be reduced if so. Certainly the voltage is good, impedance great.
Oh and each volume tick is about 2.5 dB.
Addendum - The dongle definitely has a DAC
I have ordered a USB audio pass through cable to see if onboard analog is enabled
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
bjrmd when you have a minute can you explain some of the numbers and what they might mean to the layperson. Why is high voltage good and low impedance good.
jawmail1 said:
bjrmd when you have a minute can you explain some of the numbers and what they might mean to the layperson. Why is high voltage good and low impedance good.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The max voltage is what limits the overall volume, so if you are driving over the ear cans and need power, this is helpful. Not important for sensitive iem's.
Crosstalk--a mixing of the R and L channels- not intentional. Better crosstalk--more stereo separation.
Impedance- internal resistance of the amplifier--if this is too high, causes frequency response changes depending on the type of iem and the iem impedance.
Thanks for the definitions bjrmd!
A couple of key points:
The dongle is a USB DAC, so basically audio out as supplied by Google is determined by that cheap little item. You could get a better USB DAC like a dragonfly, but it is bigger.
The distortion is based on some sort of driver parameter issue. I think the reason will end up being that the dongle DAC is set for max digital gain which is not optimal (unless needed). The following test shows why:
I used the Dongle on my Pixel orig and Pixel 2 with the Neutron player usb driver and the signal was clean.
This is a tracing, the same on both devices.
This is a dragonfly red, virtually the same:
So, I think the Google designers did not properly design the software, but the hardware is solid. In the meantime, use the Neutron player USB driver and you will have a very clean signal.
bjrmd said:
The max voltage is what limits the overall volume, so if you are driving over the ear cans and need power, this is helpful. Not important for sensitive iem's.
Crosstalk--a mixing of the R and L channels- not intentional. Better crosstalk--more stereo separation.
Impedance- internal resistance of the amplifier--if this is too high, causes frequency response changes depending on the type of iem and the iem impedance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks:good:
Dongle optimization on the old Pixel:
Alsa installed (need root, so can't do on the new Pixel yet).
Dongle card output:
numid=2,iface=MIXER,name='Headphone Playback Switch'
; type=BOOLEAN,access=rw------,values=1
: values=on
numid=3,iface=MIXER,name='Headphone Playback Volume'
; type=INTEGER,access=rw---R--,values=2,min=0,max=175,step=0
: values=18,18
| dBminmax-min=-175.00dB,max=0.00dB
numid=4,iface=MIXER,name='Extension Unit Switch'
; type=BOOLEAN,access=rw------,values=1
: values=off
numid=1,iface=PCM,name='Playback Channel Map'
; type=INTEGER,access=r----R--,values=2,min=0,max=36,step=0
: values=0,0
It seems that the android software defaults the dongle digital gain at max:
This leads to the distortion bands previously seen.
But, if we cut the dongle DAC gain down, and raise the android Volume to net the same(or even a bit higher) voltage:
The bands are gone.
In addition we can get 1 volt out without too much distortion as well:
This is not that difficult to do, but root is needed.
I will try to do some more detailed testing over the weekend, but I wanted to get this up so if someone was on the fence due to audio issues, if you are willing to wait for root and a few mods, this is a reasonable solution.
BTW for 9 bucks the dongle is pretty good with the correct gain settings
do you have test the ldac on google pixel 2 xl ?
is it working? or any change?
Does anyone else think it's a bit ridiculous how large the adapter is? It's huge compared to Apple's.
Thanks for posting this! Would you say this adapter is superior to Apple's lightning adapter? There are a few audiophile sites that have posted measurements for it and say it's great, but I'm not sure how to compare it to this.
Here is one such review: http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/lightning-adapter-audio-quality.htm
yangyangyanglei said:
do you have test the ldac on google pixel 2 xl ?
is it working? or any change?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
See first post.
In order to get digital gain to change in the dongle Dac, root is needed, hence tested the dongle on original Pixel in post 11.
The results should be identical .
Nitemare3219 said:
Does anyone else think it's a bit ridiculous how large the adapter is? It's huge compared to Apple's.
Thanks for posting this! Would you say this adapter is superior to Apple's lightning adapter? There are a few audiophile sites that have posted measurements for it and say it's great, but I'm not sure how to compare it to this.
Here is one such review: http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/lightning-adapter-audio-quality.htm
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The dongle is a reasonable USB DAC, but the stock implementation (at least on my setup) is poor. Google has the DAC digital gain at max, which introduces significant distortion.
To backtrack, the net powerout of this device is dependent on the Android system volume + the digital gain of the DAC itself. So you could have a very low android volume and very high DAC gain (as it is now) or a higher android volume and lower DAC gain (optimal for distortion).
My dragonfly red will behave this way as well in regards to distortion.
So unless you want maximum power out, we want android volume higher and DAC gain lower.
The impedance is lower than Apple's, power out may be higher as well. Not sure about crosstalk but both are probably very good.
Size wise- I couldn't even tell there was circuitry in the dongle-they did a good job IMO in the size.
Bottom line-- the audio out of the new Pixel is basically dependent on what USB DAC used. The stock is fine with the above noted. In fact for all you know, another USB DAC may also default to max gain and distort as well.
bjrmd said:
The dongle is a reasonable USB DAC, but the stock implementation (at least on my setup) is poor. Google has the DAC digital gain at max, which introduces significant distortion.
To backtrack, the net powerout of this device is dependent on the Android system volume + the digital gain of the DAC itself. So you could have a very low android volume and very high DAC gain (as it is now) or a higher android volume and lower DAC gain (optimal for distortion).
My dragonfly red will behave this way as well in regards to distortion.
So unless you want maximum power out, we want android volume higher and DAC gain lower.
The impedance is lower than Apple's, power out may be higher as well. Not sure about crosstalk but both are probably very good.
Size wise- I couldn't even tell there was circuitry in the dongle-they did a good job IMO in the size.
Bottom line-- the audio out of the new Pixel is basically dependent on what USB DAC used. The stock is fine with the above noted. In fact for all you know, another USB DAC may also default to max gain and distort as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Here's the size comparison.
bjrmd said:
I double checked my voltage measurements and they seem correct (compared to a dragonfly red).
The dongle may contain a DAC (like apple lightening). It is possible that with root, ALSA, some of the distortion can be reduced if so. Certainly the voltage is good, impedance great.
Oh and each volume tick is about 2.5 dB.
Addendum - The dongle definitely has a DAC
I have ordered a USB audio pass through cable to see if onboard analog is enabled
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can you post a link of the pass through cable you are using or reccommend?
---------- Post added at 01:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 AM ----------
I may be misunderstanding the tech involved here but what is the best way to get the best wired audio here? Root tweaking the existing dongle DAC or doing something like a pixel rooted with viper4audio with a pass through dongle?
Jayme Helgerud said:
Can you post a link of the pass through cable you are using or reccommend?
I may be misunderstanding the tech involved here but what is the best way to get the best wired audio here? Root tweaking the existing dongle DAC or doing something like a pixel rooted with viper4audio with a pass through dongle?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A pass through cable would be using the phones DAC/SOC (qualcomm) and analog audio out, just like with a headset jack. Unfortunately, @chdloc did a brief test with a Pixel 2 (not XL) with that type of cable and it did not play. Also, I bet the analog out would have higher impedance , worse crosstalk than a USB device. Either way you need an adapter, so a dongle or pass through.
So far the only way to get wired audio is through using a USB DAC. The dongle is a full fledged USB DAC. It has a fixed sample rate of 48K but otherwise excellent specs(by itself). Even if you wanted a high sample rate DAC, the android driver/audioflinger only puts out 48K.
As mentioned above, the stock gain settings cause distortion (at least in my case). After rooting this will be easy to fix. Right now, Neutron player has a custom USB driver that prevents that distortion (by also keeping the DAC gain lower) - that is what I am using.
Maybe Google will read this and fix the issue in the next update.
I can't give an opinion on Viper.
bjrmd said:
A pass through cable would be using the phones DAC/SOC (qualcomm) and analog audio out, just like with a headset jack. Unfortunately, @chdloc did a brief test with a Pixel 2 (not XL) with that type of cable and it did not play. Also, I bet the analog out would have higher impedance , worse crosstalk than a USB device. Either way you need an adapter, so a dongle or pass through.
So far the only way to get wired audio is through using a USB DAC. The dongle is a full fledged USB DAC. It has a fixed sample rate of 48K but otherwise excellent specs(by itself). Even if you wanted a high sample rate DAC, the android driver/audioflinger only puts out 48K.
As mentioned above, the stock gain settings cause distortion (at least in my case). After rooting this will be easy to fix. Right now, Neutron player has a custom USB driver that prevents that distortion (by also keeping the DAC gain lower) - that is what I am using.
Maybe Google will read this and fix the issue in the next update.
I can't give an opinion on Viper.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Will the neutron driver affect music played with other apps? I assume not...only music you've downloaded and are playing in the neutron app. It sounds like (haha) I'm going to be looking forward to some system level driver mods someone (hopefully) develops for a rooted pixel. Thanks for the insights!
Jayme Helgerud said:
Will the neutron driver affect music played with other apps? I assume not...only music you've downloaded and are playing in the neutron app. It sounds like (haha) I'm going to be looking forward to some system level driver mods someone (hopefully) develops for a rooted pixel. Thanks for the insights!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, no - only works in Neutron player.
Once root comes I plan on making something like this but will be much easier since only USB audio needs control. I would like some type of Spl level info as well to save our ears.
Related
Hi guys,
Some hardcore audiophile data here. Measured the output of the Note 5 using AudioPrecision APx525. Some interesting facts and graphs below.
Simply put: it's an audiophile's dream!
Supports high resolution playback up to 192 kHz. Also FLAC by the way.
Extremely flat frequency response: <0.03 dB delta upto 20 kHz, <0.35 dB delta upto 96 kHz
Very good dynamic range: 98 dB at max output level, 120dB at default output level
Relatively low output level: -8dBV (400mV using a 0dBFS signal) into a 16 Ohm load (for reference, Asian iPhone 6 = -1 dBV)
Output impedance: 4.6 Ohm
NOTE: all measurements done into a 16 Ohm load (standard headphone impedance).
Graphs
Relative output level in dB
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THD+N spectrum
Red = for max output level
Blue =for default output level
UPDATE
I've done some more measurements to understand what the UHQ and Tube Amp Pro settings do. No surprises really, pure gimmicks in my opinion.
(1) Tube Amp Pro
Relative response level
THD+N spectrum
So, the Tube settings does 3 things:
EQ the low end. Less sub and more low mid range.
Add harmonic distortion in the low frequencies.
Remove very high frequencies.
Kind of expected for this kind of effect. I'll leave it up to your own subjective evaluation whether you want less bass and more distortion in your music :laugh:
(2) UHQ
I've only tested UHQ using an uncompressed file, but I think I know what it is trying to do.
RED curve = no UHQ spectrum
GREEN curve = UHQ spectrum
When using a high res file, turning UHQ ON did nothing. When I used a file which only has content up to 20 kHz ... something did happen.
It's clearly adding ultrasound content to the audio (i.e. content that was not originally there!). The test signal used here is an analytical multi tone signal. The measurement is normally very clean and sharp (see the red curve). The UHQ measurement shows (1) more distortion and (2) additional ultrasound harmonic content. The only reason I can imagine for adding this noise is to force the DAC to work in a higher sampling rate. I don't see the point to be honest, especially if it's being done by adding unnecessary noise and quite high levels of ultrasound harmonics.
Willyman said:
Hi guys,
Some hardcore audiophile data here. Measured the output of the Note 5 using AudioPrecision APx525. Some interesting facts and graphs below.
Simply put: it's an audiophile's dream!
Supports high resolution playback up to 192 kHz. Also FLAC by the way.
Extremely flat frequency response: <0.03 dB delta upto 20 kHz, <0.35 dB delta upto 96 kHz
Very good dynamic range: 98 dB at max output level, 120dB at default output level
Relatively low output level: -8dBV into a 16 Ohm load (for reference, Asian iPhone 6 = -1 dBV)
I still need to measure the output impedance, can certainly be useful for people to know.
I posted graphs on the Android Central forum, but it's not allowing me yet to have external links... I just signed up.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for quantifying this in such detail. I knew the audio was impressive but these are some great insights!
eousphoros said:
Thank you for quantifying this in such detail. I knew the audio was impressive but these are some great insights!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My pleasure. I couldn't wait to get the measurement on the way, it really sounds fantastic. I would say on par with some of much more expensive dedicated headphone AMP/DAC combos I have here in my office.
By the way, I'm having my doubts if the dBV measurement is correct. It appears louder than that. It's a new AP setup for me, so I might have made a mistake. I'll measure the output level in a much more straightforward way (0 dBFS file -> load -> multimeter) and confirm or correct the result.
Willyman said:
My pleasure. I couldn't wait to get the measurement on the way, it really sounds fantastic. I would say on par with some of much more expensive dedicated headphone AMP/DAC combos I have here in my office.
By the way, I'm having my doubts if the dBV measurement is correct. It appears louder than that. It's a new AP setup for me, so I might have made a mistake. I'll measure the output level in a much more straightforward way (0 dBFS file -> load -> multimeter) and confirm or correct the result.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Output level confirmed and I've added the output impedance after measureing it just now.
Great, now I just have to find a cable that's compatible with my case. The plug on my JH-16 pros has to make contact with the phone (obviously), problem is that the plug is too wide for the case.
How does the volume level compare to an iOS device/Note 4? I ask because on the Note 4 I have to put it to at least 60% while on my iPod touch 5th gen 50% felt a little too loud?
Hiya Buddy said:
Great, now I just have to find a cable that's compatible with my case. The plug on my JH-16 pros has to make contact with the phone (obviously), problem is that the plug is too wide for the case.
How does the volume level compare to an iOS device/Note 4? I ask because on the Note 4 I have to put it to at least 60% while on my iPod touch 5th gen 50% felt a little too loud��
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Depends. European versions of iPhone are hard limited to around 450 mV (health guidelines). Asian iPhone 6's go up to very close to a 1 V RMS (800-1000 mV, depending on the load impedance). Worth knowing though that the last volume step of the iPhone 6 actually has internal audio clipping. I don't know what version they sell in the US.
Willyman said:
My pleasure. I couldn't wait to get the measurement on the way, it really sounds fantastic. I would say on par with some of much more expensive dedicated headphone AMP/DAC combos I have here in my office.
By the way, I'm having my doubts if the dBV measurement is correct. It appears louder than that. It's a new AP setup for me, so I might have made a mistake. I'll measure the output level in a much more straightforward way (0 dBFS file -> load -> multimeter) and confirm or correct the result.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Great to know this buddy.... I cafe for good audiophile quality sound.... I have fiio x3 dedicated music played.
So you mean it sound similar to what a dedicated player would sound? Also using the UHQ sound option, does that are sound better or shall we leave it off?
Sent from my SM-P600 using Tapatalk
saj2001ind said:
Great to know this buddy.... I cafe for good audiophile quality sound.... I have fiio x3 dedicated music played.
So you mean it sound similar to what a dedicated player would sound? Also using the UHQ sound option, does that are sound better or shall we leave it off?
Sent from my SM-P600 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't have experience with the fiio's. I was doing some subjective comparisons with some pretty nice DAC/amps and a very nice dedicated player (can't say the names, without giving away who I work for) and it held its own. Not bad for a phone. The measurements are just there to back up my subjective experience. I just know I will be thoroughly enjoying listening to music on this device.
With regards to UHQ... audio engineering is my job and frankly marketing nonsense like this makes me laugh. The Note 5 plays full range high res audio without enabling this function. I don't know what it does and I'm not even sure I will be able to measure it, unless if it's just some subtle high frequency EQ-ing like I've been reading. This should be the giveaway: UHQ works with both wired connections and Bluetooth... Bluetooth is severely band-limited (yes, even the fancy APTx) and I would be careful labelling this UHQ.
Willyman said:
I don't have experience with the fiio's. I was doing some subjective comparisons with some pretty nice DAC/amps and a very nice dedicated player (can't say the names, without giving away who I work for) and it held its own. Not bad for a phone. The measurements are just there to back up my subjective experience. I just know I will be thoroughly enjoying listening to music on this device.
With regards to UHQ... audio engineering is my job and frankly marketing nonsense like this makes me laugh. The Note 5 plays full range high res audio without enabling this function. I don't know what it does and I'm not even sure I will be able to measure it, unless if it's just some subtle high frequency EQ-ing like I've been reading. This should be the giveaway: UHQ works with both wired connections and Bluetooth... Bluetooth is severely band-limited (yes, even the fancy APTx) and I would be careful labelling this UHQ.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cool so do you recommend keeping the UHQ setting on or let it be off for cleaner sound ?
Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk
saj2001ind said:
Great to know this buddy.... I cafe for good audiophile quality sound.... I have fiio x3 dedicated music played.
So you mean it sound similar to what a dedicated player would sound? Also using the UHQ sound option, does that are sound better or shall we leave it off?
Sent from my SM-P600 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
saj2001ind said:
Cool so do you recommend keeping the UHQ setting on or let it be off for cleaner sound ?
Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why don't you listen and decide which one you think sounds best? It's all subjective anyway.
Willyman said:
Why don't you listen and decide which one you think sounds best? It's all subjective anyway. [emoji14]
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know I just need an experts advice
Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk
saj2001ind said:
I know I just need an experts advice
Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Haha, OK. There is no need to turn it on. It will not make things more clear or higher quality.
Willyman said:
Haha, OK. There is no need to turn it on. It will not make things more clear or higher quality.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Okay cool thanks but if u can make out technically what that does pls do let us know.... I would like that some hardware sound chip tuning rather than just some crazy software eq
Also do you have any idea what dac note 5 has....is it Wolfson....
Sent from my SM-P600 using Tapatalk
saj2001ind said:
Okay cool thanks but if u can make out technically what that does pls do let us know.... I would like that some hardware sound chip tuning rather than just some crazy software eq
Also do you have any idea what dac note 5 has....is it Wolfson....
Sent from my SM-P600 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've read it's the same Wolfson as in the Galaxy S6, but don't quote me on that.
Also, I've uploaded the graphs now since I hit 10 posts :laugh:
Willyman said:
I've read it's the same Wolfson as in the Galaxy S6, but don't quote me on that.
Also, I've uploaded the graphs now since I hit 10 posts [emoji23]
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cool you got to thank me and my questions for completing ur 10 posts
Sent from my SM-P600 using Tapatalk
---------- Post added at 08:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:16 PM ----------
Can I also ask which played on phone u used while measuring. .was it Samsung music player or some other music app ?
Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk
Willyman said:
Why don't you listen and decide which one you think sounds best? It's all subjective anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The UHQ setting is greyed out for me. Does anyone know why? Thanks
roger1955
SM-N920T
32 gb Black Sapphire
roger1955 said:
The UHQ setting is greyed out for me. Does anyone know why? Thanks
roger1955
SM-N920T
32 gb Black Shappire
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
U got to plug in a headphone to activate it
Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk
Willyman said:
I don't have experience with the fiio's. I was doing some subjective comparisons with some pretty nice DAC/amps and a very nice dedicated player (can't say the names, without giving away who I work for) and it held its own. Not bad for a phone. The measurements are just there to back up my subjective experience. I just know I will be thoroughly enjoying listening to music on this device.
With regards to UHQ... audio engineering is my job and frankly marketing nonsense like this makes me laugh. The Note 5 plays full range high res audio without enabling this function. I don't know what it does and I'm not even sure I will be able to measure it, unless if it's just some subtle high frequency EQ-ing like I've been reading. This should be the giveaway: UHQ works with both wired connections and Bluetooth... Bluetooth is severely band-limited (yes, even the fancy APTx) and I would be careful labelling this UHQ.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It doesn't work with Bluetooth though. I read that it enables some higher frequency on the sound chip or something like that
---------- Post added at 12:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 AM ----------
So I have a question... Should I enable the "adept sound" like what is it, it supposedly does? Does it dirty up the sound and how about the tube amp pro? Does that introduce more noise to the signal? For best results in a professional opinion should I leave everything off when using a wired connection. And Bluetooth for that matter. I'm using the Samsung level OVers so I listen both ways. I know the sound alive makes music sound bad in my opinion.... I actually made a post asking this stuff in the T-Mobile forums.
nique0201 said:
It doesn't work with Bluetooth though. I read that it enables some higher frequency on the sound chip or something like that
---------- Post added at 12:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 AM ----------
So I have a question... Should I enable the "adept sound" like what is it, it supposedly does? Does it dirty up the sound and how about the tube amp pro? Does that introduce more noise to the signal? For best results in a professional opinion should I leave everything off when using a wired connection. And Bluetooth for that matter. I'm using the Samsung level OVers so I listen both ways. I know the sound alive makes music sound bad in my opinion.... I actually made a post asking this stuff in the T-Mobile forums.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://global.samsungtomorrow.com/s...eadphones-for-a-premium-listening-experience/
UHQ Audio: With the new Level On Wireless Pro, Samsung introduces Ultra High Quality Audio (UHQA) that
gives listeners a rich, high definition sound experience. UHQA transmission is possible with both wired and wireless device options. UHQA’s sound quality is higher than that of a CD, providing an almost live listening experience. The Level On Wireless Pro headphones also feature premium dual layered diaphragm, helping to create a more balanced sound.
HIgher than CD quality over Bluetooth? Bull****.
How I think the UHQ upscaler might work is through a principle called upsampling. It will force the DAC to work at higher sampling rates, even if the original file is not high res. This allows the filters used in the digital to analog conversion to be smoother, less prone to errors. We're talking very very subtle differences here though. In this use case, I doubt anyone will be able to reliably identify the UHQ version in a blind test.
RE: Adeptsound. It will use a simplified audiology test go get a view on your hearing deficiencies and then tune the sound to compensate. Example: if your a 50 year old man who's losing sensitivity for the high frequencies, this test will pick up on that and add high frequencies in the music signal. I think this might have benefits for sure... if you are going slightly deaf. Otherwise, your brain is perfectly adapted to the little deficiencies in your hearing, there is no need to compensate for them. But, don't take my word for it. Give it a try. If you think it makes your music sound better, excellent.
Willyman said:
http://global.samsungtomorrow.com/s...eadphones-for-a-premium-listening-experience/
UHQ Audio: With the new Level On Wireless Pro, Samsung introduces Ultra High Quality Audio (UHQA) that
gives listeners a rich, high definition sound experience. UHQA transmission is possible with both wired and wireless device options. UHQA’s sound quality is higher than that of a CD, providing an almost live listening experience. The Level On Wireless Pro headphones also feature premium dual layered diaphragm, helping to create a more balanced sound.
HIgher than CD quality over Bluetooth? Bull****.
How I think the UHQ upscaler might work is through a principle called upsampling. It will force the DAC to work at higher sampling rates, even if the original file is not high res. This allows the filters used in the digital to analog conversion to be smoother, less prone to errors. We're talking very very subtle differences here though. In this use case, I doubt anyone will be able to reliably identify the UHQ version in a blind test.
RE: Adeptsound. It will use a simplified audiology test go get a view on your hearing deficiencies and then tune the sound to compensate. Example: if your a 50 year old man who's losing sensitivity for the high frequencies, this test will pick up on that and add high frequencies in the music signal. I think this might have benefits for sure... if you are going slightly deaf. Otherwise, your brain is perfectly adapted to the little deficiencies in your hearing, there is no need to compensate for them. But, don't take my word for it. Give it a try. If you think it makes your music sound better, excellent.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Should I use tube amp pro or sound alive? What do they do or are they gimmick that mess up the sound in the long run?
So, has anyone tried to connect a DAC (Digital to Analog Converter)
I just ordered a FIIO Q1 From Amazon, and just wondering if it will work at all.
Thanks in advance.
MuyKurioso said:
So, has anyone tried to connect a DAC (Digital to Analog Converter)
I just ordered a FIIO Q1 From Amazon, and just wondering if it will work at all.
Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I tried a co-worker's DACmagic the other day and it certainly worked flawlessly and transparently (no fuss, just plugged it in and it diverted audio instantly).
However, I couldn't notice any difference at all between straight output from X Force and from the DAC back-to-back (as far as possible) with my Sony MDR-100AAP headphones.
I'm assuming that this reflects well on the X Force in-built DAC rather than poorly on the DACmagic (given universal praise of that USB DAC as far as I can find)
chaosdefinesorder said:
I tried a co-worker's DACmagic the other day and it certainly worked flawlessly and transparently (no fuss, just plugged it in and it diverted audio instantly).
However, I couldn't notice any difference at all between straight output from X Force and from the DAC back-to-back (as far as possible) with my Sony MDR-100AAP headphones.
I'm assuming that this reflects well on the X Force in-built DAC rather than poorly on the DACmagic (given universal praise of that USB DAC as far as I can find)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What kind of files did you use? The main reason i wanted the DAC is for lossless files through Tidal. So, if the built in DAC on our Force is that good, guess I'll be returning Fiio's DAC.
MuyKurioso said:
What kind of files did you use? The main reason i wanted the DAC is for lossless files through Tidal. So, if the built in DAC on our Force is that good, guess I'll be returning Fiio's DAC.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that is a small caveat; I tried it with the "high quality" download from Play Music, so not lossless, however I still stand by there being barely any perceptible difference - particularly considering the DACmagic (and others) bills itself as improving even "SD" audio...
I would consider myself "picky about sound quality" rather than full-on audiophile, but I know what to listen out for - and what I (personally) consider good sound quality - and I would say the X Force headphone output with the MDR-100AAP sounds great to me. Better than the headphone output on the SoundBlaster X-Fi Ti in my PC, actually. In other words, I don't consider the difference with the X Force to be worth ~$100 of USB DAC
Then again, I'm also sceptical of the difference between high bit-rate MP3/AAC/OGG vs. FLAC in the first place, so maybe I'm just not the right kind of person :silly:
Of course I'd recommend you try back-to-back with and without the FIIO when you get it and decide for yourself (presumably you'd do that anyway!)! After seeing the size and weight of the DACmagic (USB powered, no battery!), I was considering getting one for myself until I tried it and determined that it just wasn't worth the £50 to £100 they typically retail for! I may change my mind in the future, though...
chaosdefinesorder said:
I tried a co-worker's DACmagic the other day and it certainly worked flawlessly and transparently (no fuss, just plugged it in and it diverted audio instantly).
However, I couldn't notice any difference at all between straight output from X Force and from the DAC back-to-back (as far as possible) with my Sony MDR-100AAP headphones.
I'm assuming that this reflects well on the X Force in-built DAC rather than poorly on the DACmagic (given universal praise of that USB DAC as far as I can find)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
chaosdefinesorder said:
that is a small caveat; I tried it with the "high quality" download from Play Music, so not lossless, however I still stand by there being barely any perceptible difference - particularly considering the DACmagic (and others) bills itself as improving even "SD" audio...
I would consider myself "picky about sound quality" rather than full-on audiophile, but I know what to listen out for - and what I (personally) consider good sound quality - and I would say the X Force headphone output with the MDR-100AAP sounds great to me. Better than the headphone output on the SoundBlaster X-Fi Ti in my PC, actually. In other words, I don't consider the difference with the X Force to be worth ~$100 of USB DAC
Then again, I'm also sceptical of the difference between high bit-rate MP3/AAC/OGG vs. FLAC in the first place, so maybe I'm just not the right kind of person :silly:
Of course I'd recommend you try back-to-back with and without the FIIO when you get it and decide for yourself (presumably you'd do that anyway!)! After seeing the size and weight of the DACmagic (USB powered, no battery!), I was considering getting one for myself until I tried it and determined that it just wasn't worth the £50 to £100 they typically retail for! I may change my mind in the future, though...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, call me crazy but I do hear the difference between Spotify and Tidal, in terms of streaming services, so i guess I'll update this post when my Fiio arrives.
Also, did you use the DACmagic as an amp, or as DAC with USB OTG, or both amp and DAC?
MuyKurioso said:
Well, call me crazy but I do hear the difference between Spotify and Tidal, in terms of streaming services, so i guess I'll update this post when my Fiio arrives.
Also, did you use the DACmagic as an amp, or as DAC with USB OTG, or both amp and DAC?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I guess for me it's mostly a case of the difference not being worth the cost increase!
The DACmagix XS (the specific model) is a DAC - as in it only has micro-USB on one end and 3.5mm jack on the other, nothing else other than volume up/down buttons!
I've been tempted to try Tidal premium for a while, but again the cost/worth tug-o-war comes in vs. my current only £7.99 per month for Play Music...
Just got an X Force in the UK and can confirm it works with my Chord Mojo DAC under Marshmallow.
I own a few expensive headphones and IEM's that cost more than this phone.. Why does SUPER ALWAYS sound worse than standard in the hifi sound option? Super sounds muffled on every earpiece I used.. Its like its backwards or something..
so is standard the snapdragon DaC and Super is AKM dac? Or is both AKM? Mostly bought this phone for its audio capabilities, I ride over 100 miles a week on a cycle and always tune out.
HELP!!!
velvethammer said:
I own a few expensive headphones and IEM's that cost more than this phone.. Why does SUPER ALWAYS sound worse than standard in the hifi sound option? Super sounds muffled on every earpiece I used.. Its like its backwards or something..
so is standard the snapdragon DaC and Super is AKM dac? Or is both AKM? Mostly bought this phone for its audio capabilities, I ride over 100 miles a week on a cycle and always tune out.
HELP!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Also interested in the answer to this, I thought I was going insane as on my custom IEMS standard sounds better than super which seems muffled but if I swap to a pair of cheaper earphones then super gives better results.
Want to know what each of these modes do in terms of DAC or filter being used?
Super sounds waayyyyy better than default on my A2017G using OnePlus Icons.
I should know as a music producer and audiophile.
The sound is a lot deeper and thicker. Also the bass is a lot cleaner and the high frequencies are also more clear and less 'dull'
keessonnema said:
Super sounds waayyyyy better than default on my A2017G using OnePlus Icons.
I should know as a music producer and audiophile.
The sound is a lot deeper and thicker. Also the bass is a lot cleaner and the high frequencies are also more clear and less 'dull'
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd like to know how others are finding the difference between standard and super headset hifi. Pls also post what earphones/headphones you are using for this.
For me, JH Roxannes and Sony EX1000 sound better with standard. If I use Westone UM30 pro then the opposite effect, super sound better.
I can't believe the phone can tell the difference between 2 earphones and would change super and standard accordingly.
beyerdynamics custom one pro.
no dolby.
with super the instruments sound a lot clearer (except for the increased volume in bass frequencies) as in i hear every single vibration of an instrument. e.g. when a hi hat is hit i audibly "see" how it swings.
I don't use dolby either but standard sounds better on my Roxannes than super. Same effects as you experience but on standard vs super. Highs/Mids/Bass sound clearer in standard. Super sounds muffled in comparison and bass is increased but muddy.
Unless standard and Super are reversed on the chinese version A2017?
May be my earlier post in other thread can help to answer to your question regarding DAC.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/axon-7/how-to/stock-music-player-t3474463/post69069304#post69069304
The only thing is not clear yet is the analog part. I suppose that it is in separated, already not named chip and both DACs drive same amplifier. The volume difference between Standard and Super would be because of different analog signal level. It is my opinion but either I can imagine that it is on purpose indicating that something happened.
Why do you hear standard sounds better than Super? I don't know. I checked how standard sounds (good) but I always use super mode.
I brought this up in a previous thread, glad it's still being discussed.
One issue lies in confirmation bias. Anyone doing testing on their own and knowingly switching between Standard and Super could have psychologically skewed the results. Since the software named one setting "Super", the weight of average users opinions may bias towards that. The only way to truly test it would be to have a full blind test done.
Since even I don't want to bother anyone to help me set up such an involved test, I did some rudimentary testing with my Shure SRH840, Sony 7506, and Triple Fi 10. I'm finding that Super increases the overall volume, as well as increasing mid-bass response and some treble.
I have an unsubstantiated theory on this. First, Super setting could be a sales tactic equalizer designed to "wow" the average consumer. It's a well known audio industry strategy that preys on the human brain's tendency to rate slightly louder audio sources as higher in quality.
Secondly, this setting could be designed to give perceived improvements using low quality headphones. The fact that several of us observe increased mid-bass and treble, areas that cheap headphones sometimes severly lack, may be an indicator. Let's not forget that in the box, the Axon comes with a cheap set of headphones that are many buyers' first audio experience on this phone, which ZTE would want to leave an impression.
If this is true, it makes sense that many of us with higher end headphones with more accurately balanced frqeuency response would find the Super setting to be inferior in use. Again, none of my claims can be confirmed unless professional testing equipment and a blind test method is used.
I remain skeptical in regards to questions of this setting toggling between a Snapdragon DAC and a Axon specific Hi-fi DAC. When quickly switching between Standard and Super, there's virtually no pause in the audio playback, with linear fade outs and fade ins. It seems odd that if the phone was truly switching between sending the audio to two different hardware chips, a more prominent pause in audio playback should occur.
So is it true that you cannot use Dolby and process audio using the AKM DAC at the same time? I read that somewhere, you can use either one or the other
trace1er said:
So is it true that you cannot use Dolby and process audio using the AKM DAC at the same time? I read that somewhere, you can use either one or the other
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I believe that's not true, it may have come about from Poweramp users. If DVC is disabled in Poweramp then Dolby can be used. I assume that Poweramp uses the AKM dac.
I'm curious how the Axon 7 is setup. If only the AKM dac is enabled or if the S820 dac is also enabled. I can't work out if or how to switch between them. If there is any way to show which dac is in use that would be great as it's all guessing right now.
Kantana said:
I believe that's not true, it may have come about from Poweramp users. If DVC is disabled in Poweramp then Dolby can be used. I assume that Poweramp uses the AKM dac.
I'm curious how the Axon 7 is setup. If only the AKM dac is enabled or if the S820 dac is also enabled. I can't work out if or how to switch between them. If there is any way to show which dac is in use that would be great as it's all guessing right now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This would be a good thing. Wonder if there's an app to do it, or possible to make one.
Kantana said:
. ... if the S820 dac is also enabled.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It isn't.
obladi64 said:
It isn't.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If that's the case then no concern over super vs standard. Both modes use the AKM dac and the difference being heard is software/filters/dsp being applied
We could push the argument to say that standard is the pure output out of the dac with no coloration being added so no surprise this sounds most transparent, clear with decent earphones.
Super would be for lower quality earphones to add back elevated bass/highs so artificially compensating for hardware defecits.
Kantana said:
If that's the case then no concern over super vs standard. Both modes use the AKM dac and the difference being heard is software/filters/dsp being applied
We could push the argument to say that standard is the pure output out of the dac with no coloration being added so no surprise this sounds most transparent, clear with decent earphones.
Super would be for lower quality earphones to add back elevated bass/highs so artificially compensating for hardware defecits.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not at all.
I've tested with several headphones and the super settings adds a lot more depth. Default sounds a bit flat. Not in terms of bass or treble, but widening, clearance, and especially the low-end sounds a lot muddier.
Kantana said:
If that's the case then no concern over super vs standard. Both modes use the AKM dac and the difference being heard is software/filters/dsp being applied
We could push the argument to say that standard is the pure output out of the dac with no coloration being added so no surprise this sounds most transparent, clear with decent earphones.
Super would be for lower quality earphones to add back elevated bass/highs so artificially compensating for hardware defecits.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not exatly. If you use flat mode there is no colorisatin in both. As I know 4491 is not able to oversample and convert 16 or 24 bit to 32. 4490 is able to. It should make sound better theoretically. Beyond these 4490 has many switchable filter option. Don't mix it with DSP. Usually it is called soft or sharp mode etc mode. Unfortunately ZTE doesn't make it availabe for user and I don't know what is the default selected option but difference between these option is so tiny that you can judge just after long term listening if you can at all.
Kantana said:
I don't use dolby either but standard sounds better on my Roxannes than super. Same effects as you experience but on standard vs super. Highs/Mids/Bass sound clearer in standard. Super sounds muffled in comparison and bass is increased but muddy.
Unless standard and Super are reversed on the chinese version A2017?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Something is wrong with your phone in particular. Reset it or send it back.
I saw a friend with Axon 7 dealing with exact same issue.
I got mine and its working like its supposed to. Super enhances the sound and dolby gives the open dynamics.
Kantana said:
If that's the case then no concern over super vs standard. Both modes use the AKM dac and the difference being heard is software/filters/dsp being applied
We could push the argument to say that standard is the pure output out of the dac with no coloration being added so no surprise this sounds most transparent, clear with decent earphones.
Super would be for lower quality earphones to add back elevated bass/highs so artificially compensating for hardware defecits.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not both mode use AKM DAC but use different type of AKM DAC. 4490 is more enhanced than standard 4691. 4490 can oversample and convert bit depth but I already said it in earlier post. There is no software trick to make it "better" on cheap headphones. A7 was made for audiophiles too, why would they have done that? For this purpose a tone control would have been enough. I suggest to check how another A7 phones sound, may be yours has problem.
Otherwise today I listen music in standard mode too. Comparison was a bit difficult because I cannot set same volume level. The difference is 1.5 click between two mode. Never mind my intension was and long term test. I played only CD quality music and there is no question about that both DAC sound very good but differently. Standard sounds like typical CD player. It is a typical sterile digital sound. The Super is full with air and space. Everything is more clear and enjoyable. It sounds analog way. After this I don't know whether is it worth to compare with HD audio record too?
Now that would be a surprise to me as I saw AK4490 was used as DAC for playback but AK4961 was used as ADC for recording. I never considered they would have both wired for standard n super.
Where can we find supporting documents for these 2 modes since even manual skips on details and just says you can change it within headset hifi?
Kantana said:
Now that would be a surprise to me as I saw AK4490 was used as DAC for playback but AK4961 was used as ADC for recording. I never considered they would have both wired for standard n super.
Where can we find supporting documents for these 2 modes since even manual skips on details and just says you can change it within headset hifi?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
4691 is ADC and DAC in one chip while 4490 is only DAC. I haven't found well detailed document. All you can do in this question is that you read ZTE and AKM releases carefully. Also you can find some detail on site like Android Authority or Youtube etc.
obladi64 said:
4691 is ADC and DAC in one chip while 4490 is only DAC. I haven't found well detailed document. All you can do in this question is that you read ZTE and AKM releases carefully. Also you can find some detail on site like Android Authority or Youtube etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
From ZTE site, it looks confusing:
Playback
Sound Playback Codecs: Dolby Atmos® + Dolby Digital Plus (7+1 Surround Sound)
Sampling Frequency: 384 kHz
THD+N: '112dB
S/N: 120 dB
Recording
Channel: 3 channel (HiFi),1 channel (VAD)
Resolution: 32 bit as per spec (24 bit as per performance)
Sampling Frequency: 96 kHz
MIC max input: 2.02 Vpp
S/N ADC: 102 dB
Conference Mode
Directional Recording: Dimensional and Omni Directional
Recording Range: Up to 7 meters (approximately 23 feet)
Dedicated Audio Chipset: AKM 4961 + 4490
- 4961 - HiFi main chipset to provide HiFi and recording features
- 4490 - Independent amplifier to enhance HiFi playback (AK380)
It makes it sound like 4961 is dac and 4490 is the amp. At least for the conferencing, for playback it only mentions the dolby which is software. It also adds (AK380) to the line mentioning 4490!
Introduction
I created this thread to post and discuss measurements and data related to audio fidelity of the headphone output. Note that audio fidelity does not automatically correlate with audio quality. Audio quality is a very subjective measure. Some people like their audio to be very bass heavy while others prefer accentuated mids and/or highs. Yet others (like myself) enjoy a very "neutral" sound signature. Audio fidelity -- at least the way I define it -- on the other hand can be measured: Audio data is fed to the DAC/amp and measured at the output. For perfect fidelity, the recorded output is identical to the input. Of course, this ideal cannot be achieved. Deviations from the ideal can be measured, documented, and discussed. Particularly, not all deviations from the ideal are actually audible. I predict some heated discussions on audibility in this thread going forward...
Test Equipment
The device under test (DUT) is a Pixel XL that sports a Qualcomm WCD9335 codec/amp discrete audio chip. The headphone output is split with a Y-wire. One signal path goes into the measurement rig, a Rohde & Schwarz UPV Audio Analyzer. Depending on the measurement, the other end either stays open (not connected or N/C) or connected to my Sennheiser IE800 IEMs. Those IEMs have a virtually frequency-independent impedance of 16 Ohm, a sensitivity of 125 dB/Vrms at 1 kHz, and a ruler-flat phase response. These IEMs are not only one of the best "sounding" headphones I know, but actually very easy to drive as the specs that I've listed suggest.
Test Signals
For the tests conducted so far, I have used two signals that I created with Matlab:
stereo wave file with full-scale (0 dBFS) 1 kHz sine wave in the left channel and silence (zeros) in the right channel (16 bit, 48 kHz sampling rate)
stereo wave file with white noise mastered to take advantage of the full dynamic range (16 bit, 48 kHz sampling rate)
These signals were played with the stock Android music player, with all audio effects disabled.
In some cases I swapped the Pixel XL with an iPhone 5s for comparison purposes. All other hardware stayed the same.
Measurement Results
This section summarizes the measurements detailed in the second post.
Output Impedance
The Pixel's output impedance was measured to be 4.8 Ohm. To compare, the output impedance of the iPhone 5s' amp is 2.0 Ohm.
Comments: The Pixel's output impedance violates the often-quoted 1/8 rule in some cases. The rule says that most amps work best with headphones that have an impedance that is at least eight times its own output impedance. According to this rule, headphones should ideally have an impedance of more than 40 Ohm. Nevertheless, the amp seems to work with my 16 Ohm IEMs without any issues (other than the level drop, see below). The reason, I think, is that my IEMs make use of a single dynamic driver rather than multiple balanced armature ones like many other IEMs. Multiple balanced armature drivers are much harder to drive and may cause minor problems (slight modification of the frequency response) with the amp in the Pixel
Frequency Response (see plots in the second post)
The frequency response is ruler flat, whose shape does not change at all once my IEMs are plugged in as a load. The gain dropped by 2.3 dB after plugging in the headphones. The reason for this drop is the interaction of the headphone's impedances with the output impedance of the amp. Higher impedance headphones will see a smaller drop in volume when plugged into the Pixel.
The channel imbalance is a negligible 0.1 dB at 1 kHz.
Comments: As discussed above, the only potential issue I can see here is that the combination of this amp with low-impedance multiple armature-based IEMs may lead to slight modifications in the overall frequency response, maybe on the order of +/- 2 dB max.
Maximum output level
When the volume on the Pixel is turned up all the way, the maximum attainable output voltage with a full-scale 1 kHz sine wave is 0.427 Vrms, without any load attached. I have found that the output volume was capped digitally to -7 dBFS in the mixer by Google. The maximum theoretically attainable output voltage of virtually any DAC/amp combo devices is 1 Vrms. Once a custom recovery has been made available for the Pixel, it should be trivial to boost its maximum output voltage to 1 Vrms.
Comments: No issues here.
Volume level steps with volume rocker
As discussed above, at max volume the Pixel delivers 0.427 Vrms, which is volume step 15.
Lowering the output volume from the maximum setting, 15, with the volume rocker results in the following steps (rounded):
Volume setting: 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0
Change in gain: 0dB, -3dB, -3dB,-3dB,-3dB,-3dB,-3dB,-4dB,-4dB,-3dB,-4dB,-4dB,-4dB,-7dB,-7dB,-54dB
Noise Floor
The noise floor was measured to be 115 dB, which gives a theoretical dynamic range of (currently) 108 dB.
Comments: No issues here.
Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise (THD+N, see plots in the second post)
Measurements of THD+N were done on both iPhone 5s and Pixel at their respective maximum volume as well at a volume setting that corresponds to an output voltage of around 20 mV, with which the IE800 would produce around 90 dB SPL:
Pixel at 20 mV: THD+N is -71.4 dB
Pixel @ max volume: THD+N is -81.3 dB
iPhone 5s at 20 mV: THD+N is -78.7 dB
iPhone 5s @ max volume: THD+N is -84.1 dB
Comments: By comparing the plots in the second post, it can be seen that the Pixel has higher non-linear distortions than the iPhone 5s, especially at low output voltages. The reason for this is that Google and I believe any other Android manufacturer opts to maximize analog gain while controlling overall level with digital gain only. This is not ideal. It would be better to hit the codec with the highest digital gain possible (but no more than 0 dB), keep the analog gain low initially and control overall loudness with the analog gain only. This way the full dynamic range of the DAC can be utilized. This is the paradigm that virtually any home/car stereo systems utilizes. Based on the plots below, I'm guessing that Apple is doing it, too.
Intermodulation Distortion
Preliminary inspection of SMPTE IMD measurements suggest no problems either unloaded or loaded with my IEMs. Measurements to follow sometime next week.
Stereo Crosstalk
Stereo crosstalk very much depends on the interaction of amp, headphone, and analog circuit design of the phone. Here, at least on the surface, the Pixel does not seem to be showing strong numbers. With my headphones attached and throughout the volume range offered by the Pixel, I measured the stereo crosstalk to be 45 dB. I compared this number with the iPhone 5s. Interestingly, stereo crosstalk on the iPhone shows a strong dependence on the playback level. Again with the IEMs attached the crosstalk ranged from 43 dB at the lower volume settings up to 60 dB at the higher end. I repeated the measurements with full-size cans, the Sennheiser HD 540 (300 Ohm). With those headphones attached, the stereo crosstalk of both the iPhone 5s and the Pixel are north of 80 dB.
Comments: To put things into perspective, though, at the playback levels that in the long run do not cause permanent hearing loss (less than 90 dB SPL at the ear drum) with the IEMs, both iPhone 5s and Pixel have very similar stereo crosstalk performance, i.e. around 45 dB. Carefully controlled double-blind tests should be considered to determine at what point crosstalk actually becomes audible.
Comments on the Pixel mixer
There is one thing that strikes me as odd after having examined the Pixel mixer (/system/etc/mixer_paths.xml): The amplifier is set up as "CLS_H_LOHIFI" and not as "CLS_H_HIFI", which is the default for the WCD9335 in general and the HTC10 in particular. While I don't know what exactly the differences between those two settings are, I will play around with them as soon as a custom recovery becomes available. I'll also look into enabling hardware IIR filtering via the Qualcomm codec and update my biQuads app.
Supporting plots done with stock mixer can be found here.
Pixel "frequency response" at 20 mV output voltage. Note that the 2.3 dB level drop to to the presence of the IE800 has been compensated for (with this output voltage my IE800 delivers around 90 dB SPL):
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Pixel "frequency response" at maximum output voltage (0.427 Vrms). Note that the 2.3 dB level drop to to the presence of the IE800 has been compensated for (with this output voltage my IE800 delivers around 115 dB SPL):
Pixel THD+N at 20 mV output voltage (only the left graph is relevant):
Pixel THD+N at maximum output voltage (only the left graph is relevant):
iPhone 5s THD+N at 20 mV output voltage (only the left graph is relevant):
iPhone 5s THD+N at maximum output voltage (only the left graph is relevant):
reserved (for future measurements based on a modified mixer)
Damn. Thanks for doing a deep dive on this.
Greatly appreciate you taking the time to do the measurements.
I'm assuming Normal Pixel would have mirrors measurements as my listening observations are in line with what you have presented.
Although on my Pixel it seems like the Single loud speaker also has the same 'Boomy' bass boost applied.
I have Campfire Jupiters and Shure SE535 with Brown Knowles dampeners and the Shures just pair better with the stock Pixel.
Looking forward to future Audio tweaks on this device.
With both headphones I have been using and brothers Shure SE215: I have noticed that the lowest volume level is still what I would consider listening level. (Where as on Note 7 sound was not audible until about 25% volume from off)
Thanks for providing such quality measurements and interpretation.
Since the physical structure of the plain Pixel is different, it is possible the crosstalk is not the same. Would be interesting to compare if anyone has one to test.
mariano3113 said:
I'm assuming Normal Pixel would have mirrors measurements as my listening observations are in line with what you have presented.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
bjrmd said:
Since the physical structure of the plain Pixel is different, it is possible the crosstalk is not the same. Would be interesting to compare if anyone has one to test.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can imagine that the Pixel would measure exactly the same as the Pixel XL. It would make a lot of sense for Google/HTC to use the same board layout as a cost savings measure, even though the two devices have different physical dimensions.
chdloc said:
I can imagine that the Pixel would measure exactly the same as the Pixel XL. It would make a lot of sense for Google/HTC to use the same board layout as a cost savings measure, even though the two devices have different physical dimensions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What I meant (and it was just a possibility) is illustrated here
If you look at the sony z5 regular vs compact, the crosstalk is 8 dB different. As you have mentioned, it's the grounding circuitry that determines crosstalk (not the dac) and perhaps a different physical layout makes a difference.
bjrmd said:
What I meant (and it was just a possibility) is illustrated here
If you look at the sony z5 regular vs compact, the crosstalk is 8 dB different. As you have mentioned, it's the grounding circuitry that determines crosstalk (not the dac) and perhaps a different physical layout makes a difference.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh, I apologize for being so vague in my response. As reported, Google/HTC spent only 9 months in designing the Pixels. On such a short development timeframe, it would make a lot of sense to clone as much of the hardware design as possible. Provided the circuit board carrying the codec physically fits into the regular Pixel's body (a big "if" as the regular Pixel is 6.2 mm narrower), I'm willing to bet that the two phones are identical from a headphone audio perspective. Otherwise, of course, all bets are off.
chdloc said:
Introduction
Output Impedance
The Pixel's output impedance was measured to be 4.8 Ohm. To compare, the output impedance of the iPhone 5s' amp is 2.0 Ohm.
Comments: The Pixel's output impedance violates the often-quoted 1/8 rule in some cases. The rule says that most amps work best with headphones that have an impedance that is at least eight times its own output impedance. According to this rule, headphones should ideally have an impedance of more than 40 Ohm. Nevertheless, the amp seems to work with my 16 Ohm IEMs without any issues (other than the level drop, see below). The reason, I think, is that my IEMs make use of a single dynamic driver rather than multiple balanced armature ones like many other IEMs. Multiple balanced armature drivers are much harder to drive and may cause minor problems (slight modification of the frequency response) with the amp in the Pixel
Frequency Response (see plots in the second post)
The frequency response is ruler flat, whose shape does not change at all once my IEMs are plugged in as a load. The gain dropped by 2.3 dB after plugging in the headphones. The reason for this drop is the interaction of the headphone's impedances with the output impedance of the amp. Higher impedance headphones will see a smaller drop in volume when plugged into the Pixel.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just to be clear, the output impedance is a problem. Here is the frequency response driving Unique Melody Merlins:
More than a minor problem there.
Here it is with a 32Ω load.
For comparison, here is a Sony ZX1 with the same two headphones used as load:
With the Merlins, the ZX1 between 30Hz-15KHz is +.5/-1.25dB with the heavy roll starting at around 7KHz, not ideal, but not much music content up there.
The Pixel XL is around +1dB/-1.5dB, but with a ton of rolling in the middle. And that's what you will see with balanced armature drivers.
Also note that the hump at around 80Hz with the PS1000 load is around double what it is on the ZX1, but the PS1000 impedance goes a little nuts right there: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/GradoPS1000.pdf
And a comparison of the Astell&Kern AK300, Sony ZX1, and Nexus 6 with the Merlins as a load. N6 was actually the best performer of the lot!
Reginalb124 said:
Just to be clear, the output impedance is a problem. Here is the frequency response driving Unique Melody Merlins:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for sharing your measurements!
For the sake of others looking at this, however, I think it is important to point out that the output impedance may be a problem and is by no means guaranteed.
Not all folks using this phone or looking to buying one use such high-demanding IEMs. Remember that my IEMs, the Sennheiser IE800, do not cause any measurable change in the overall frequency response, other than a frequency-independent level drop of 2.3 dB. I'm very satisfied how my IE800 sound with the Pixel.
As your own plots show, your IEMs cause "issues" in all configurations, even with the Astrell&Kern dedicated music player! Note that you are arguing over frequency response swing differences of less than 1 dB. Keep in mind that the amplifier-headphone system is largely linear so you can take the additional small frequency (and likely phase) swings due to the headphone-amp interaction and fold them into the already existing large swings of the headphones themselves (linear system theory).
My point is that those tiny frequency swings, +/- 1 dB, by themselves likely do not cause sufficient changes in the headphone's overall sound signature to be problematic. Unless the artificial bass boost causes the bass to become muddy.
The final word, however, will have to come after carefully conducted double-blind listening tests have been performed. I'm not going to making a lot of friends around here by saying that comparing the audio quality of two phones/devices without carefully matching the levels within a fraction of a dB and performing the tests blindly only result in subjective opinions without much merit.
My Shure SE535's sure love this phone, sounds a bit better to me than my Nexus 6.
My SE846 with an impedance of 9 ohms sound great, although I do use the built in EQ a bit to create a v-shaped sound signature which I prefer. Maybe I'll do a comparison with my Grace m9XX DAC/amp to see if I notice any major differences with a flat EQ on both.
The "problem" with low impedance headphones is not necessarily the low impedance as @chdloc has indicated. It's the variability with frequency (because each driver and crossover has different impedance effects) that can mess with the frequency. The two graphs below are from a Note 4 (1.4 ohm) with a Shure se535 (variable but higher impedance) and the se846 (variable low impedance).
Here is the impedance graph of the se846-note the variability:
As can be seen, the frequency shifts are higher with the se846--but if the headphone impedance was the same throughout, it would look flat.
The se846- more exaggerated:
The se535 (much higher impedance but still variable)-not too bad:
I have measured the same curve with my Dragonfly red (.02 ohm) and it is totally flat
I would guess the exaggeration would be more with the Pixel (5 ohm). This may sound "better" to some, but not to others-as noted above.
My plan (after I get my preorder) is to remeasure the frequency response and just design some biquads to "fix it" the way I like it. But, the average user who is not adjusting this may notice a different sound signature.
It is not a deal breaker, but I was a bit disappointed in Google/HTC for not doing a better job. My Note 2 was close to 1 ohm, S6 1.4 ohm and Iphone noted above.
bjrmd said:
The "problem" with low impedance headphones is not necessarily the low impedance as @chdloc has indicated. It's the variability with frequency (because each driver and crossover has different impedance effects) that can mess with the frequency.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is actually a combination of a highly variable and low impedance. Higher impedance headphones with varying impedance will have less of an effect as the amplifier's damping factor -- which is a function of its output impedance -- will be able to "deal" with it.
But still, the number of users that have such high-demanding IEMs, like your SE846 or the AKG K3003, is likely very low. That's why I wanted to counter the general statement of doom and gloom expressed earlier in this thread. Having said that, you guys with demanding IEMs may want/need to resort to either utilizing correction filters, buying a different phone with a lower impedance amp, or investing in an external DAC and/or amp.
Thanks for the effort you put into this. I've got a couple sets of ciems from Noble Audio that I'm itching to try once my XL comes in.
GSMarena review up-no real surprises and basically agrees with above. Crosstalk -62 dB, not as good as HTC 10, Iphone but better than the LG V20 (special ESS dac).
All in all, with respect to audio a solid performer but certainly not spectacular.
Life is full of compromises.
This is from my Google Pixel (non XL)
Removed LO from LOHIFI (To my ears it seems to have reduced the 'Boomy’ bass)
About to test Elemental kernel.
Edit:
another XML edit: "RX HPH Mode" value="CLS_H_LP" compared to HTC 10 & Note 7 (Snapdragon) "RX HPH Mode" value="CLD_H_HIFI"
Before:
After:
mariano3113 said:
This is from my Google Pixel (non XL)
Removed LO from LOHIFI (To my ears it seems to have reduced the 'Boomyâ?? bass)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've made that change, too, but I have a hard time hearing a difference (my headphones don't sound boomy to begin with).
Did you reboot after making the change? Measurements will have to wait until at least Monday.
Did you actually edit your mixer_paths.xml in /system or did you go the system-less route by binding a modified mixer in /su/etc?
BTW, biquad filtering, stereo recording, and a very first shot at dual loudspeaker playback seem to be working (the earpiece is a *lot* quieter than the main speaker, however), all done via mixer_paths.xml changes. I'm still having trouble, though, getting the biquads modification to work reliably when going the system-less route...
This is a great thread. I love getting the best out of my devices and sound has always been important to me. I'm no audiophile but I'll be keeping up with this. Thanks!
Hello, I wanted to ask which ic amplifier would be the best for me for the car in terms of sound music,I have some doubts between the Tda 7851 or Tda 7838 or Toshiba Tcb001, by the way I have an external amplifier of kicker 250.1. Thanks!
adir 25 said:
Hello, I wanted to ask which ic amplifier would be the best for me for the car in terms of sound music,I have some doubts between the Tda 7851 or Tda 7838 or Toshiba Tcb001, by the way I have an external amplifier of kicker 250.1. Thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This depends on what you have right now. The most common hardware mod is TDA7850 with a 10,000 mf capacitor. Personally, I disconnect it from internal power altogether and drive it with a 17v-18v 10A power supply. Bear in mind that TDA7850 requires proper cooling so be ready to add additional heatsinks and a temperature-controlled fan (you don't want the fan to be on all the time, only when cooling is required). Example in the pics.
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If you have an external amplifier and it's good (at least 300 real Watts), then I would remove the internal amplifier chip altogether and instead optimize the hardware for using an external amp.
More info on the mod itself can be found here and here.
iceblue1980 said:
This depends on what you have right now. The most common hardware mod is TDA7850 with a 10,000 mf capacitor. Personally, I disconnect it from internal power altogether and drive it with a 17v-18v 10A power supply. Bear in mind that TDA7850 requires proper cooling so be ready to add additional heatsinks and a temperature-controlled fan (you don't want the fan to be on all the time, only when cooling is required). Example in the pics.
View attachment 5391107...View attachment 5391105
If you have an external amplifier and it's good (at least 300 real Watts), then I would remove the internal amplifier chip altogether and instead optimize the hardware for using an external amp.
More info on the mod itself can be found here and here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, I understand, in the case that I have an external amplifier how do I optimize the hardware for using an external amp?
adir 25 said:
Ok, I understand, in the case that I have an external amplifier how do I optimize the hardware for using an external amp?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Guides can be found here and here.
This will require the removal of the internal amp and soldering other components onto the motherboard
iceblue1980 said:
Guides can be found here and here.
This will require the removal of the internal amp and soldering other components onto the motherboard
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Removal of the TDA power amplifier is not necessary, you could consider grounding pin 4 to place TDA7388 into standby and decouple signal inputs via 1k resistor to RCA leads for connection to external amp.
Another option could be to cut or lift TDA power supply leads. However, leaving the TDA in place will not affect audio.
Despite what the Russian mods suggest, soldering 1k resistors, carefully and supporting with a small amount of suitable glue is OK.
adir 25 said:
Hello, I wanted to ask which ic amplifier would be the best for me for the car in terms of sound music,I have some doubts between the Tda 7851 or Tda 7838 or Toshiba Tcb001, by the way I have an external amplifier of kicker 250.1. Thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is so little difference (other than being mostly counterfeit or knockoffs) between these Power Amplifier ICs there is no "best".
If you want a real and measurable difference, install an external power Amp.
marchnz said:
There is so little difference (other than being mostly counterfeit or knockoffs) between these Power Amplifier ICs there is no "best".
If you want a real and measurable difference, install an external power Amp.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Real TDA7850 (properly cooled) powered by 17-18v supply with 10,000 mf cap, with proper power and grounding cabling with correctly configured Viper4Android will perform on a level where no external amp will be able to complete when it comes to price vs sound quality.
If you choose external amp then you'll need to throw in a DSP unit as well. All that will cost more than some are willing to spend.
YD7388 and TDA7388 are complete crap however.
iceblue1980 said:
Real TDA7850 (properly cooled) powered by 17-18v supply with 10,000 mf cap, with proper power and grounding cabling with correctly configured Viper4Android will perform on a level where no external amp will be able to complete when it comes to price vs sound quality.
If you choose external amp then you'll need to throw in a DSP unit as well. All that will cost more than some are willing to spend.
YD7388 and TDA7388 are complete crap however.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, I got it, I have a dilemma between these two -
adir 25 said:
Ok, I got it, I have a dilemma between these two -View attachment 5392433
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
None of these are YT921xxx or Rockchip based type, so personally I wouldn't know how to do any modifications on any of them
iceblue1980 said:
Real TDA7850 (properly cooled) powered by 17-18v supply with 10,000 mf cap, with proper power and grounding cabling with correctly configured Viper4Android will perform on a level where no external amp will be able to complete when it comes to price vs sound quality.
If you choose external amp then you'll need to throw in a DSP unit as well. All that will cost more than some are willing to spend.
YD7388 and TDA7388 are complete crap however.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Unfortunately, the datasheet shows a different perspective, however goldern ears may vary. If you like it, that's great.
adir 25 said:
Ok, I got it, I have a dilemma between these two -View attachment 5392433
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As I said earlier, there's little to NO difference between the power amps they use, except that they're mostly counterfeit devices, so it's *luck of the draw* what you end up with.
If your concers are audio quality, these Chinese knockoffs are not for you. Also, doing misinformed things like running the power amp at manufacturer rated maximum supply and fitting a giant heatsink to in in hope of it lasting longer than a short period of time - won't help either. I had originally typed 'dumb', but realized that it's not polite.
Just to be super clear on this question: Which amplifier is better?
The answer is none.
The power amps used in these devices are all so close in terms of output power, the difference is insignificant.
Wanting quality Audio? The cheapest units are not for you, with the more expensive units not necessarily offering any better "quality".
Wanting power to drive your speakers/annoy - purchase external power amplifier(s).
marchnz said:
As I said earlier, there's little to NO difference between the power amps they use, except that they're mostly counterfeit devices, so it's *luck of the draw* what you end up with.
If your concers are audio quality, these Chinese knockoffs are not for you. Also, doing misinformed things like running the power amp at manufacturer rated maximum supply and fitting a giant heatsink to in in hope of it lasting longer than a short period of time - won't help either. I had originally typed 'dumb', but realized that it's not polite.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Clearly you have not had any experience testing TDA7388 or YD7388 with true TDA7850-system described above side by side.
Only relying on datasheets is like trying to understand what sound will be like by reading datasheets of speakers...
Please refrain from confusing people who are most probably on budget, trying to get the best out of their Android Head Units.
Max conditions for any electronic device can be successfully applied with proper modding to support the output. They will not break.
Many times the shortfall is the cooling, not the power output capacity. And it's not "just heatsinks", it's an end-to-end temperature-controlled cooling system.
I will agree on that if you can afford a proper external amp and DSP, that that is a better choice. And many of these units can be optimized to deliver a respectable performance with external gear.
iceblue1980 said:
Clearly you have not had any experience testing TDA7388 or YD7388 with true TDA7850-system described above side by side.
Only relying on datasheets is like trying to understand what sound will be like by reading datasheets of speakers...
Please refrain from confusing people who are most probably on budget, trying to get the best out of their Android Head Units.
Max conditions for any electronic device can be successfully applied with proper modding to support the output. They will not break.
Many times the shortfall is the cooling, not the power output capacity. And it's not "just heatsinks", it's an end-to-end temperature-controlled cooling system.
I will agree on that if you can afford a proper external amp and DSP, that that is a better choice. And many of these units can be optimized to deliver a respectable performance with external gear.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Testing, interesting.
How were the before and after tested and against which ICs.
No, reading IC datasheets is not "like trying to understand what sound will be like by reading datasheets of speakers".
One could however make cabinet and crossover decisions based on speaker datasheets, that is possible.
If at the end of the design, your speakers added some sort of magical sound to the reproduction, the calculations are in error and the design is a failure.
This discussion is however like comparing two cheap rubber bands and arguing one is better because you can stretch it further.
Since you mentioned speakers, running a speaker beyond xmax is analogous to operating the amp IC at its Vmax - impending failure.
marchnz said:
Testing, interesting.
How were the before and after tested and against which ICs.
No, reading IC datasheets is not "like trying to understand what sound will be like by reading datasheets of speakers".
One could however make cabinet and crossover decisions based on speaker datasheets, that is possible.
If at the end of the design, your speakers added some sort of magical sound to the reproduction, the calculations are in error and the design is a failure.
This discussion is however like comparing two cheap rubber bands and arguing one is better because you can stretch it further.
Since you mentioned speakers, running a speaker beyond xmax is analogous to operating the amp IC at its Vmax - impending failure.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When data sheets clearly shows THD >10% and skyrocketing above 100W output. You don't need any test to know that it will not sound very nice powering 4-8 speakers and a subwoofer!
But it might sound ok with efficient stock speakers.
For undistorted power you need an external amp. But these units are rather noisy and garbage in equals garbage out...
Allan_Hun said:
When data sheets clearly shows THD >10% and skyrocketing above 100W output. You don't need any test to know that it will not sound very nice powering 4-8 speakers and a subwoofer!
But it might sound ok with efficient stock speakers.
For undistorted power you need an external amp. But these units are rather noisy and garbage in equals garbage out...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Subwoofer will pull the most amps which is why it's highly recommended to have an active sub, which let's face it - most car audio lovers will already have. Even a compact underseat subwoofer like Kenwood KSC-SW11 150W will make quite a difference even in an SUV sized vehicle.
A trimmed TDA7850 setup in a up to 8x (4+Ohm) stock speakers + active sub, will deliver some respectable results in combination with a properly configured Viper4Android.
With passive sub, I probably wouldn't bother as it would choke TDA7850 even with the suggested mod. Simple physics.
I tested a 4 × 4Ohm speaker setup with a midsize passive sub and it wasn't awesome. Was okay but barely.
iceblue1980 said:
Subwoofer will pull the most amps which is why it's highly recommended to have an active sub, which let's face it - most car audio lovers will already have. Even a compact underseat subwoofer like Kenwood KSC-SW11 150W will make quite a difference even in an SUV sized vehicle.
A trimmed TDA7850 setup in a up to 8x (4+Ohm) stock speakers + active sub, will deliver some respectable results in combination with a properly configured Viper4Android.
With passive sub, I probably wouldn't bother as it would choke TDA7850 even with the suggested mod. Simple physics.
I tested a 4 × 4Ohm speaker setup with a midsize passive sub and it wasn't awesome. Was okay but barely.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Stock speakers have tiny motors designed for 15 RMS watts.
But if you want something better you need power. 50W is better and 100W is even better. But if you care about sound guality you definitely don't want 20% of the output to be distortion. So a tiny single ic amp is not up for the task.
So if you want cheap sound quality purchase a power amp. Lot's of nice used amps available for 100$. So that is the route I would recommend instead of trying to mod the internal amp.
But if anyone really want to spend their time modding I'm not stopping anyone...
Allan_Hun said:
Stock speakers have tiny motors designed for 15 RMS watts.
But if you want something better you need power. 50W is better and 100W is even better. But if you care about sound guality you definitely don't want 20% of the output to be distortion. So a tiny single ic amp is not up for the task.
So if you want cheap sound quality purchase a power amp. Lot's of nice used amps available for 100$. So that is the route I would recommend instead of trying to mod the internal amp.
But if anyone really want to spend their time modding I'm not stopping anyone...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, getting an external amp will still require hardware modding of the cheaper Android Heads Unit for optimal output and you'll need to throw in a DSP unit to at least partially offset not having Viper4Android.
I think if you put it all together it'll make more sense than comparing watts and units/components one by one.
The sad part of it all is that no Android Head Unit, not even the most expensive ones can deliver any meaningful audio experience. I compared the sound quality of a $800 Android Head Unit and a $100 one and it was barely noticeable.
The newer Qualcomm Android Head Units come without internal amp but require almost no modding to deliver good output. Granted, these new units utilise the fibre connection so not really a fair comparison.
I'm actually using one myself with an external Harman Kardon setup - and it's almost good enough but I'm really missing Viper Still looking for a hardware alternative but it would require quite a stack of hardware... DSP, EQ, Dynamics FX unit etc etc..
iceblue1980 said:
Well, getting an external amp will still require hardware modding of the cheaper Android Heads Unit for optimal output and you'll need to throw in a DSP unit to at least partially offset not having Viper4Android.
I think if you put it all together it'll make more sense than comparing watts and units/components one by one.
The sad part of it all is that no Android Head Unit, not even the most expensive ones can deliver any meaningful audio experience. I compared the sound quality of a $800 Android Head Unit and a $100 one and it was barely noticeable.
The newer Qualcomm Android Head Units come without internal amp but require almost no modding to deliver good output. Granted, these new units utilise the fibre connection so not really a fair comparison.
I'm actually using one myself with an external Harman Kardon setup - and it's almost good enough but I'm really missing Viper Still looking for a hardware alternative but it would require quite a stack of hardware... DSP, EQ, Dynamics FX unit etc etc..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I used to have a 100$ android HU feeding 3 amps through a Dayton DSP.
At low volume the s/n ratio was quite bad, but at normal listening volume it wasn't bad and I could not hear it with the engine running.
So I would like to know what you think needs to be improved about the preouts and how?
What is dynamics FX and what do you miss from viper?
Allan_Hun said:
I used to have a 100$ android HU feeding 3 amps through a Dayton DSP.
At low volume the s/n ratio was quite bad, but at normal listening volume it wasn't bad and I could not hear it with the engine running.
So I would like to know what you think needs to be improved about the preouts and how?
What is dynamics FX and what do you miss from viper?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I normally test the sound in my workshop as I have different car speakers and home speakers setup so I will hear literally everything... Car engine noise is therefore not present.
The radio sound is not great but can be improved by removing a few internal bypass capacitors and changing some others to much more powerful ones. The radio sound is better on units with NXP radio chip that supports RDS but frankly I'd rather listen to DAB or Internet Radio as that sounds goes through the "normal audio channels".
There are ways of "cleaning up" the output from RCA's by modding internal components. I'm yet to test it but can tell you for sure that the RCA outputs are "noisy". I compared the audio quality of Kenwood and Sony pre-outs side by side with one of the $100 Chinese Androids, and at least in lab environment, the difference was noticeable.
Viper4Android is a as powerful audio processing tool as any piece of software can deliver on an Android. Coming from a studio recording background (used to be an audio recording engineer and composer), I see this as a complete tool to perfect the car audio by softening the bad and boosting the good.
Dynamics FX for example allows you to utilise compression of certain frequencies at certain volume levels so that no matter of how quiet or loud the overall volume is, you sound stage will be perfectly balanced. It's a bit like fluent EQ.
And there are a number of other modules that will allow things like adaptive stereo imaging, frequency boost, distortion prevention (I have pushed TDA7850 to it's limits with no audible distortion), noise cancelling, delays, reverbs - pretty much any studio effect you can think of.
It is a complex tool but once done right, it's really impressive.
To give you an example, it took me 8 hours to properly calibrate the sound in our previous car that had one if these Mediatek Android Head units (modded to the teeth of course). Using stock BOSE speakers and 1 underseat sub in a fairly large SUV, it was uncomparable with the stock amp setup. Yes I spent a month modding the unit itself but for $200 I paid for the head unit and any spare parts for modding, it sounded like a 20-30 times more expensive audio setup and the best part was that it was a powerful Android as far as head units go.